Intel Partners Are Angry: Power Spec Woes, Silicon Degradation & Poor Communication

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Intel Power Spec Woes: Partners Are Angry, Silicon Degradation & Poor Communication
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Outro music by David Vonk/DaJaVo

[@makenicerhombus]

They should name the new CPUs Lava Lake

[@SHINYREDBULLETS]

I read this comment just as I took a sip of tea, almost drowned!

[@predator9909]

don't give them any ideas

[@oimazzo2537]

Well, you are up for a nice 6 months of peak performance 😂

[@FriendlyPCGamers]

Burn It Down music plays of Seth Rollins whenever the Intel CPU powered computers turn on. 😂😂😂

[@fantasypvp]

what about solder lake?

[@_Anson_Chan_]

The B-roll cameramen got bored and started filming Steve and Tim. 😅 Impressive footage!

[@sirmonkey1985]

He couldn't do his cool fancy CPU stacking for the video. ;)

[@kaiserfakinaway5909]

some shots feel like a stalker's view lmao

[@PixelPipes]

Those shots were from an unruly fan with a restraining order

[@ArndBrugman]

That made it so much better to watch. Amazing job!

[@fajaradi1223]

​@@PixelPipes Do you mean paparazzi?

[@JarrodsTech]

The B-Roll shots feel like they're coming from Intel's POV before they get ya

[@Windupmykilt]

Patty G. comes out of the shrubbery with large clopping shoes saying to them "Now waaahait just a gosh darn minute!"

[@alexmills1329]

Maybe Intel got with Boeing for a sweetheart deal on a mercenary group 😂

[@realgoose]

Was I the only one hoping they would slowly enter the pool, being all the way in the pool by the end?

[@Matt.Hurley]

That's how they end the video just sink down under the screen

[@rangersmith4652]

That would have provided better cooling, for sure.

[@fajaradi1223]

I've seen that kind of video on the HUB, not this HUB tho!

[@GewelReal]

🤔

[@HanSolo__]

@@Matt.Hurley An allegory to Intel chips situation.

[@akyhne]

I am NOT accepting future Hardware Unboxed studio made videos, to have fewer camera angles and pans, than in this video. And bushes! We need bushes!

[@fajaradi1223]

Also pools and ponds

[@1samm1]

More such swooping Pavilions in future as well, please

[@Chill_Mode_JD]

Agreed more shrubbery!

[@asdf_asdf948]

Also where are the 5800x3d numbers?

[@Goochigoop]

Taiwan is a gorgeous place :)

[@brianrobinson3961]

They need a clear spec for each CPU. Intel can no longer get away with these “recommendations”. No, it’s a specification and that’s what it will run at out of the box.

[@EdDale44135]

Feels like you could split the difference. Have a set of settings that is known to be good for long term survival of the chip. Strictly enforce this. Then allow board partners to have more “push the envelope” settings that are clearly marked as beyond warranty.

[@excalibur3311]

A very crucial point of realization is approaching for the consumer processor electronics market: "Do we continue to embrace/accept highly overvolted, power hungry chips and tolerate exacerbated thermal, electrical issues that can mean problems for longevity or do we opt for an approach where thermal, electrical improvements and generational efficiency are expected with new products?" The Bruteforce-Power Intel strategy is undeniably showing the longer term, predictable consequences.

[@toseltreps1101]

facts

[@wfb.subtraktor311]

Same goes for GPUs, with the whole 4090 fire hazard situation. At what point is a lot of power too much power?

[@darkkingastos4369]

@@wfb.subtraktor311 Exactly. I'm using a 7600xt right now and it does everything I want it to do. I just don't see the point of owning a giant power wasting gpu that makes my room heat up like a furnace. When you add the cost of having to cool down your room to the cost of all that power usage it makes that gpu cost more than double what you paid for it in the long run.

[@Mattribute]

It’s the end for intel as far as I’m concerned. The 12900k will apparently be the last one I will buy, unless two miracles occur. I don’t trust them so they have to string two great generations in a row before I will contemplate their stuff. It’s like with people who suffered Bulldozer nonsense; they needed a few years of zen being amazing before they considered AMD again.

[@BlueDrew10]

​@@wfb.subtraktor311 It makes no sense that they pushed the 4090 so hard either, given how far ahead it is and how little extra performance is gained from pushing it. I planned to power limit it if I bought one.

[@DigitalDJnet]

much angles, very smooth, such wow

[@Gametech]

Some of these camera angles look like a horror film. As if Pat Gelsinger is stalking you, peaking over the bushes waiting for the right moment to pop out and heave you two under a bus.

[@nossy232323]

Wow, I'm so glad I went AMD this time!

[@Jonathan-Roden]

Same. But I went through the experiences of 7800x3D burning sockets. 😢

[@sayedengine]

@@Jonathan-Roden did you update your motherboard bios first? the problem comes from high voltage that went to CPU.

[@asdf_asdf948]

​@@Jonathan-Rodenat least AMD replaced the 7800x3ds under warranty, sounds like intel is trying to avoid the same

[@nossy232323]

@@Jonathan-Roden I know, that was bad. But still less so than what Intel owners now go through.

[@andersjjensen]

@@Jonathan-Roden Every company ships an oversight once in a while. That is to be expected with complex tech. The only thing that matters is how they own the mistake (or lack thereof). Nvidia lost me for good with the 8600M/8800M "chips melt off the motherboard" problem that they completely screwed everyone over with... Including Apple... who never partnered with them again after that, so I'm not the only one who carries a grudge for a long time. Strangely enough, Microsoft also had enough after just one stint with Nvidia (original XBox) and never returned either. Over the years I've had a number of parts replaced under warranty (My first PC was a prebuilt 486, everything after that was, that wasn't a laptop, has been a DIY build) and I've generally had good experiences with RMA proceses... But there are a few that are on my forever-blacklisted wall of shame.

[@suwakomoria]

The camera angles and movement are... unusual for this channel. It's not bad, just didn't expect that.

[@Hardwareunboxed]

Haha well we don't normally film outside either... or in a city 😅

[@blasiankxng]

popping out of the bush was my favorite one lol

[@DeathMonk069]

We have two cameras and we're gonna use them, dammit!

[@zorbakaput8537]

@@Hardwareunboxed Please don't tell the OP you aren't in your studio (let alone being in Taiwan), that could cause all sorts of anxiety complexes.

[@ecu4321]

I have a keenan and peele vibe on the camera angles

[@SaturnusDK]

If the CPU can't handle being used at the extreme profile for prolonged periods then why is the extreme profile even a thing that exists?

[@Riyozsu]

Because they need to keep the chips faster than the 16 core ryzen 9.

[@mikus4242]

@@RiyozsuBingo! Give that man a prize.

[@mikus4242]

@@keithc2390 gotta have good benchmarks!

[@otterplays8156]

"5.6ghz? Why would you want that? You can run anything at 5.2ghz! Oy vey it's only a wattage limit to 4.8ghz, HELP this goy-customer wants 4.5ghz!! You'll enjoy the 4.1ghz performance profile, oy vey!!"

[@BudgetGamerz]

To win benchmarks.

[@Duncan23]

I know a lot of people are joking about the camera angles etc but seriously how you guys have produced such a high quality video with multiple angles and added b roll, whilst being out at a trade show is amazing! Amazing work guys, you have really stepped it up this year and it is showing ❤

[@jeffreybouman2110]

In the side angel camera the ray tracing is beautiful ;)

[@OfSheikah]

HUB team have worked and grind real hard to improve their render engine pipeline

[@tomvandongen8075]

Still not enough for Nvidia's liking

[@Conradlovesjoy]

They are angels

[@JohnDavidSullivan]

Angelic indeed

[@kosmosyche]

Unreal 5?

[@blackbirdpctech]

I completely agree … the performance profile is simply there as a backup for Intel to weasel their way out of warranty claims … their lack of communication and clarity to board partners is also a way for Intel to avoid taking responsibility and opening themselves up to a false advertising class action lawsuit. One thing you didn’t mention is that most reviewers tested these CPU’s with motherboard default options on high-end boards, so the performance data was not reflective of the extreme profile … it was better. This helped Intel sell more chips, which is a big issue.

[@RobBCactive]

Exactly, but pointing out that the power specs were abused would simply get the responise "but it just works and Intel have done this for years without problems."

[@blackbirdpctech]

@@RobBCactivethey always have an excuse for their excuse 😉

[@RobBCactive]

@@blackbirdpctech it's actually much worse than I realised, default under-volting meant silicon lottery losers would find instability in the new build, but NOT know they were out of spec. Really hard to sleuth.

[@blackbirdpctech]

@@RobBCactiveyeah, I did a video on it and I tested the different options … you are correct, they undervolt with default settings, especially on higher end boards. That is also why just enabling CEP kills your performance with default settings.

[@RobBCactive]

@@blackbirdpctech needing to disable protection options was a giveaway. Personally I am sure both Intel & partners knew it was risky, but posting worse benchmarks at nearly double the power was seen as incompatible with employment

[@TheGamerSandbox]

Man that is insanely scummy from Intel

[@weltsiebenhundert]

Water is wet. Sadly nothing new here.

[@dieseIboy]

If my grandmother had wheels, she would’ve been a bike.

[@adamtajhassam9188]

As a long time Intel user , im not having this issue however my next chip might justbe team red . At least i know what performance i need .

[@tomstech4390]

Haaave you met Intel?

[@b1zzler]

I remember intel's motherboard division got axed partially because their "boring" boards always got smoked by boards from taiwan that sauced up the power and clocks... Imagine this is all the result of some ex-motherboard-division engineer-now-manager going joker mode "that's what you get for killing my baby😈"

[@brucethen]

*sees Steve and Tim standing in front of a pool, thinks how tempting giving them a gentle push would be lol

[@kaiserfakinaway5909]

good to hear that I'm not alone lmao

[@gikigill788]

I wasn't thinking of it but now that you've said it.....

[@ofon2000]

i'd like to do the same, but I wouldn't wanna pay for their phones or microphones...

[@zyxyuv1650]

Fool me once - 12K series latency problems causing dropouts when running low latency in my music software Fool me twice - 13K silicon degradation and implicitly falsely advertised benchmark scores I'm not falling for the Intel trick a third time. I won't buy their CPUs again.

[@predabot__6778]

I'm curious about that latency issue you mentioned -- is that caused by Inter-core latency, such as with the backported 11k-series, or the AMD Ryzen chiplet-approach? (where the data jumps between CCD's) I thought Intel had much lower inter-core latency, because of their monolithic design? (this is why in some games they have the edge on AMD -- too much latency)

[@lennard9331]

To be honest, I haven't heard the same complaints about their i7 and i5 parts, so I wouldn't automatically disregard their CPUs That said, I've been back on AMD for the past 5 years, so it's not like I'm a repeat customer myself lmao

[@TJunChuan]

@@predabot__6778 the latency issue im not sure which 1 he might be point to but i think i watched a video regarding of that, go KZbin search "intel 12 gen latency issue", you will see a 1 minute+ video explaining the latency issue is cause by some component split from CPU to motherboard

[@incandescentwithrage]

I have a DDR5 z690 board with a 12600k. No problems with it. Once the new gen releases and 14th gen get cheaper, I'll put a 14700k in it. If I was building from scratch it'd be AMD, but no reason my setup can't last several years.

[@PineyJustice]

@@predabot__6778 The low latency bit of intel is their ring bus, which only works for 8 cores. That's why they only have 8 p cores + however many e cores. The architecture is incapable of more than 8 fast cores, and the latency between P and E cores is WAY worse than ccd to ccd latency. Zen 5 supposedly has much improved ccd to ccd latency and zen 6 may be using silicon bridges to take that down to near zero. There are a ton of reports of people doing high end audio work using older 10900k cpus due to latency issues.

[@justinpyke1756]

My favourite camera shot was it popping out from behind the bush like a creeper trying to check out the two Australian hunks.

[@Chopper153]

This seems like a sneaky way to avoid all RMAs for the degraded CPUs. I think you should make a video benchmarking Intel CPUs with the "performance" profile.

[@dorientjewoller113]

No, they should start making video's about avoiding to buy Intel CPU's.

[@lldjslim]

AMD's Radeon RX 580 was based off their hawaii architecture, and the gpu was code named the "Volcanic Islands," and boy, did it sure live up to that name , it was one 🔥 🔥 hot beast So enough of the intel jokes, and also I noticed the double standards that exist between intel and AMD in the PC community. Whenever a AMD cpu runs hot the tech tubers and AMD fanboys/girls defend AMD and give them the benefit of the doubt, by saying well AMD says that the cpu is normal to run at those high temps (when we all know that any CPU wether its from AMD or Intel running at 90 degrees celcuis+ is not normal) and AMD are then given a free pass in the PC community, but when Intel runs hot, it's open season on them Here is another one AMD fanboys/girls and tech tubers: Intel's E/P core big/little hybrid design is a waste of die space and silicone. And then a few months later...... AMD introduced Zen4c to the sever market, and then now all of a sudden.... AMD fanboys/girls and Tech Tubers: E-cores are the future. When is AMD bringing their hybrid design to the desktop. Another one AMD fanboys/girls and tech tubers: Intel ditching the CORE I naming and renaming to the core ultra 265K, 275K, and 285K is confusing to the consumer and it just rolls off the tongue 👅 A few weeks later.....AMD adopts the same and a similar naming cloture just like intel AMD fanboys/girls and tech tubers: it's the best thing AMD has every done. It makes AMD stand out more in the front You see, whenever intel introduces something first and is groundbreaking by a technical stance, they are joked upon and criticized for it, But soon as AMD jumps on the same intel bandwagon all of a sudden everything changes and they are awarded for it

[@ziofascistssuck]

​​@@lldjslimyou sound mad. Go touch grass, dude. And you must have a short term memory if you can't remember the roasting AMD got during their Bulldozer era (and had none of the fanboy apologists like you coming to their rescue, even from their own side). Cope harder.

[@benjaminrogers8875]

​@@lldjslimHow much did userbenchmark pay you for this?

[@KitsuneKiera]

@@lldjslim The RX 580 was actually based on 'Arctic Islands', You're likely thinking of the 290 and 390s which at lest on their reference coolers were very hot GPUs. Zen4c isn't an E core like Intels E cores since it doesn't have different capabilities to a regular Zen4 core outside of maximum clockspeeds and L3 cache, it still supports all the same instructions as a full Zen4 core and therefore has pretty much the same IPC unlike Intel. The naming for both Intel and AMDs new chips are genuinely stupid and the AI fad is also dumb. For CPU heat, buying an 'X' CPU from AMD makes little sense when stuff like the 7700 and 7900 exist that are cheaper than their 'X' counterparts, and of course the 7800X3D which are all genuinely easy to cool.

[@generaldzaster2022]

maybe a shirt icon that's 300% smaller?

[@JohnDavidSullivan]

Welcome back to Hardware Unbushed

[@BrandensOutdoorChannel]

Sounds like a 90's Hustler Magazine lol

[@JohnDavidSullivan]

@@BrandensOutdoorChannel 🤣 yes I thought it sounded a little risqué afterwards

[@Excalabur50]

🤣

[@user-nq8ln7ps7x]

I currently experiencing I9-13900KF degradation after 1 year of using it. I already switched to manually set up Intel defaults 2 months ago. It passes stability tests without any problems, like TM5 with extreme configs and OCCT with various configurations, with and without running furrmark in background, but then I render some Topaz's Video AI and after 1-4-12-18 hours it crashes with some error in standard C library (VCRUNTIME140.dll) and 1 or 2 WHEA errors (according to HWInfo). And yeah, same render presets (render takes around 5-6 days) was run without any problems 3-4 months ago, with that stupid motherboard-default voltages, and continues to run without any problems on Ryzen 5950x. Now I can't get it stable with any setting. Tried playing with LLC, with motherboard defaults, with lowering PL1 and PL2, with stock memory speeds (without XMP) - nothing changes. And for some reason that old ryzen runs these renders faster than 13900kf, so I completely disappointed.

[@garyb7193]

It sounds like your I9-13900KF has been degraded beyond the ability to reliably run certain tasks even with stable or greatly reduced settings. It's hardware integrity seemingly has been compromised beyond repair. It's not surprising an old Ryzen, at this point would be faster. Much like a 4-cyl Escort or Fiat outperforming a sports car that suffered a cracked engine block.

[@HaloEvangelion03]

It sounds like your chip is buggered. That sucks, man. :(

[@timothygibney159]

Try undervolting and under clocking use default svid. Not asus settings and turn off enhancements off. If that doesn’t work it’s time to throw out your system and get an AMD with a msi or gigabyte board. I gave up on my 13900k

[@notreya]

That sucks dude. Get it rmad, they are pretty nice about it from everything I have heard.

[@asdf_asdf948]

I mean... what were you expecting when intel's CPUs started drawing 300w+? Sometimes you have to step back from marketing and think about whether things make sense

[@juice2]

It sounds like Intel has been trying to sit on two chairs selling overclocked products as if they are validated, but without actually validating it or providing any guarantees.

[@jermygod]

I think everything is simple. what is said in the advertisement - that should be the default.

[@hennermais]

I think Intel was happy with the MB manufacturers running their cpus as hard as they could. Secured some front rows in benchmarks at the cost of huge power and cooling necessary. I'm not surprised the silicon degrades if you push 300W+ through that tiny of an area/volume as the chip of a consumer cpu. Which is significantly smaller than the substrate and heatsink you can see from the outside.

[@Lady_Zenith]

It is normal that CPUs degrade a lil bit. I had multiple CPUs degrade on me. 5775C that could do 4,3 for a while did only 4,1 later. 8700K the same, started on 5,1, only could do 4,9 year later. The point is that if old CPU degraded by say 5% it only decreased your huge OC headroom by 5%. But today's CPUs are pushed so hard, that degrading 14900K by 5% is 200Mhz and they do not have even 200Mhz headroom and become unstable on default. Boost here turbo there, everything is now pre-overclocked and pushed to absolute limit. AMD is not innocent either, every fifth 7950X I touched could not run linpack 2021 stable on stock...

[@tacticalcenter8658]

​@@Lady_Zeniththey degrade at higher voltages. Especially when you push them. You can oc without running the voltage unnecessarily high like you're likely doing.

[@Lady_Zenith]

@@tacticalcenter8658 True, but sometimes they degrade on lower voltages as well. That 5775C degraded at 1,275v and that 8700K at 1,325v, thats is way lower than how most people pushed them, I tried to play it safe and they still degraded. Later 9900K which is the same manufacturing process and same Skylake based core never degraded on me. Sometimes its just luck. But The Raptor-lakes are pushed way too high way too hard with 0 headroom left for any degradation. Intel was ihmo asking for this and the fact that there is no recall and they are trying to blame users or board manufacturers is a scam. When PIII 1133 was unstable on default it got recalled.

[@tacticalcenter8658]

@@Lady_Zenith Intel is an "is real" company. Run by they. Who is they?

[@johnlong6197]

@@Lady_Zenithintel fanboy cope 😂😂😂😂.... my Amd does not crash 6 months after purchase.

[@danchan5620]

Did you upgrade your cameraman with a drone cam just for computex?

[@Cosmodjinn]

They didn't actually go; it's all digitally rendered. They are side hustling in VFX.

[@kaiserfakinaway5909]

@@Cosmodjinn James Cameron boutta hire em for Avatar 3

[@triadwarfare]

​@@kaiserfakinaway5909you know how bad VFX artists are paid and exploited by the film industry

[@adriankoch964]

The next Intel ++++ gens should be named after Islands. First up is "Three Mile Island".

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

🤯

[@auritro3903]

They should call is Chernobyl Lake

[@yzonker]

You can get Intel to RMA your CPU even if it is stable on the performance profile. I just did that with a 14900ks. I simply made the argument that I paid for the higher performance of the old bios defaults. Took some back and forth but eventually they agreed and I actually got a refund due to them not having any replacements on hand.

[@ZomgZomg007]

Did u go directly to intel or the store?

[@tringuyen7519]

Sounds like a lot of time, effort, & headaches to owning a new Intel CPU. Be kind to your mental health & buy AMD.😂😂😂😂

[@notreya]

Yeah there's plenty of examples stating this. I wonder why any of that wasn't mentioned, just speculation about their intentions. I guess the difference here is that AMD did in fact come out officially themselves and said hey if you have this over volt issue then yeah its under warranty. Intel have in fact been pretty quiet about this publicly, which isn't great. Its so easy like its right there.

[@ggood003]

Heck, you think this will work if I glue my 13900KS's IHS back on? lmao

[@proxiangel6812]

I think I gave Intel enough chances. New motherboard every 2 cycles (last time it lasted 3 but it's the same CPUs 13 and 14th gen so...), and now silicon degradation??? You are killing the main reason I was going for intel, reliability. Next time my money will go for AMD!

[@Ghastly10]

I am so glad that the computer shop where I bought my new PC from, guided me into choosing an AMD based system.

[@StingyGeek]

If you look hard at the pool in this shoot, you can see a CPU bubbling away at the bottom of the pool.

[@gikigill788]

That's a 14900k letting off steam.

[@noodles9345]

Love the creeper camera angle of slowly rising above the shrubs lol.

[@digzee]

😂

[@sirmonkey1985]

Basically buildzoid nailed it on the head about what was actually causing them to fail and not just the power limits alone.

[@my-yt-inputs2580]

I'll have to go watch that video again.

[@rei1789]

That eclipsing ending is how I want all Harbor Unboxed videos to end now.

[@HypoCT]

Don't worry guys, I noticed the extra camera angles. Love ya, keep up the good work

[@HeadcrabZ0mbie]

Thank you for reporting on this! I just found out about this after over a year of my 13900k crashing my system. Fingers crossed for Ryzen 9000!

[@AaronGoodTimes]

Great video! Love that you guys are staying on top of this story.

[@Cromern123]

Good information. But whats up with the camera movement ?

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

They're letting Balin have a little enrichment time. ;P

[@The_Noticer.]

I think Intel knows, but if they force the baseline spec, they are way behind AMD.

[@raptor1672]

Hey guys, where did you guys film that? It looks like a really nice lookout or something?

[@Hardwareunboxed]

At the hotel we were staying at.

[@raptor1672]

@@Hardwareunboxed Ahh cool, which one?

[@Hardwareunboxed]

HiLai

[@raptor1672]

@@Hardwareunboxed Cool, thanks!

[@kamesna6641]

Great production of this video. Tim and Steve switching places at end of the video is a nice twist.

[@xavengarcia851]

Very nice camera and post work!!!😁

[@heeerrresjonny]

If Intel **does** tell people with RMAs to drop it to "performance", then reviewers should be using the "performance" profile for benchmark comparisons.

[@bobmcbob4399]

Also, I have Intel 2500K and briefly tried XMP profile and ran 24hour Memtest. Tests failed. Dropped back to no XMP, system is great and still works without any stability issues over a decade later.

[@FeintMotion]

@@bobmcbob4399 Normal for early memory controllers for a given RAM standard. Skylake and Kaby Lake samples will broadly struggle to boot in any motherboard no matter how high end it is with most Samsung B-die DDR4 kits, even ones that were contemporaneous. And there's also the memory controller disaster of Alder Lake and derivatives where the same motherboard and DDR5 kit may or may not work across several CPU samples

[@DrathVader]

​@@bobmcbob4399iirc this generation only supported up to 1333mhz officially, anything above that is considered "OC". It's usually stable and I got mine to run work 2133mhz sticks, but no guarantees

[@Iolo3]

Long story short, best to avoid Intel builds until further notice

[@Riyozsu]

Yea even if 15th or ultra cpu claim to be efficient and stuff, we should wait over 6 months to see if any cpu instability issues start appearing like lga 1700 i9s.

[@Dozeball]

The new Intel CPUs will have some way of backdooring into your PSU and drawing more current than it’s capable of providing, and blow up your entire computer. That way, the CPU won’t degrade, they can point to the PSU and say “Yeah, that’s not the most reliable PSU model. Your fault, sorry.”

[@auritro3903]

Probably i9's specifically, from what it seems, i7s, i5s and i3s seem to be a lot more well behaved. For high end, better to stick with Ryzen 7/9 for now.

[@blackmennewstyle]

Whoever filmed and edited that video deserve(s) some serious raise. The Kings of B-Rolls. Kings of B-Roll 👑

[@matthieu--vidal]

Nice ! There is even a complex choreography at the end.

[@martincowie4520]

Who or what is on the wandering camera?

[@SKHYJINX]

Bailen BTS crew

[@dieseIboy]

Balin having an absolute field day with these live B roll shots. 😅 Love to see it ❤

[@axescar]

Camera man had a lot of fun while filming you guys - such funny views and prospectives

[@UpcraftConsulting]

I have a Ryzen 5900x with obvious Silicon Degredation issue. Freezes at idle until you disable C states. Basically at low power/voltage it freezes, if you keep it "busy" at higher voltage it runs ok. Only run it stock or with motherboard PBO enabled no other tweaks. So some traces are likely burning out and fail at low power modes. Bought at launch so out of warranty now. Never seen failed CPUs that were not an obvious reason like lightning strike, running without cooling, Overclocking gone wrong etc. Seems like modern high power cpus will now just fail after a few years if trends continue.

[@thingi]

There's a term for this issue.... 'Bait and Switch'. No wonder intel are being VERY cagey, they are scared to death of any information that would lead to a class action lawsuit.

[@ZomgZomg007]

Would love for a updated benchmark as per intel baseline now that they officially came out, anyone buying these cpus were lied to

[@knotsable]

Thats actually a very good idea. Rerun the benchmarks that were run at the release of these cpus, and compare the results from then with the updated ones

[@aztracker1]

Are you going to run Intel CPU benchmarks again with the new default limitations enabled?

[@CheesyPotat0]

I have a locked i7-13700 system. Asus had MCE on by default. The CPU core/cache setting was at 500. I had an out of video memory crash in Red Dead Redemption 2. Keep in mind I have an RTX 4090 24GB and 64GB system RAM. Why would a motherboard have MCE on by default when it detects a locked chip? It shows even locked chips aren't safe from this issue. I replaced motherboard and CPU. I made sure to disable MultiCore Enhancement and changed CPU/cache current limit to 307. I've been having a good experience so far. It's only been a month with the replacement parts. The problems on the original parts started after a few months. I'm curious if problems will appear anyway in the next couple of months even with the BIOS changes I made. If I do start seeing issues then I'll try disabling all of my E cores. I also don't use X.M.P. for my memory. That is how much I've tried to have a stable system. The 13th and 14th gen CPUs are simply trash. I picked a bad time to build a new system. I'm very disappointed with Intel. I wouldn't be surprised if many people are getting ready to sue them.

[@wryd4sound]

this seems like it validates nearly everything Buildzoid was talking about regarding Intel's absence of QA

[@Kapono5150]

That was soo smart of these two Australian men to hang around common areas, wait until the partners had a few drinks, and then slide in there with the controversial questions!!!

[@darreno1450]

After a few drinks, the truth comes out. Smart move.

[@wilhitman1]

Beautiful location for this video. Thank you for sharing the awesome view. I need to go visit 🙂 Also the video quality is outstanding - it looks like i have a 4k monitor - but its just 1440p 👍

[@TheAdam2877]

I just want to thank you for continuing to follow up on this issue with the last two generations of intel cpu's Steve and the rest of Hardware unboxed. We still do not have a real solution other than a bios update that literally destroys the performance intel advertised when they were handing these chips out to reviewers who also failed to mention just how ridiculous the heat is on these chips. It wasn't an issue with unlimited power spec the past several generations of intel cpu's. You guys are the only ones really staying on top of this so thank you.

[@DeffecX]

Whoever is hiding behind the tree with a camera needs to chill 😂. Not filming b-roll here.

[@virgo47]

Or a horror...

[@lukemcdo]

Are we really pretending that board vendors aren't the primary problem here? AMD had to police their board partners because previous boards were poor to the point that it ruined sales even when AMD was competitive. AMD also pushed thermal limits much sooner with their embarrassing FX-9000 CPUs, which required more validation. Intel didn't "freewheel" it, they delivered indestructible CPUs for over a decade. With die shrinks and increased competition, finally boards have managed to push hard enough to damage CPUs.

[@Sevard85]

Intel should inform partners what is safe and what isn't. But on the other side - engineers shouldn't randomly disable safety measures if they don't understand them. So in my opinion both - Intel and their partners should be more careful and both are responsible for this.

[@eli.k9190]

I wonder if it will happen on their next gen, specially because it's on tsmc. Happens and doesn't happen it'slose lose for them.

[@25MHzisbest]

When Intel are using TSMC to make there CPU's you know things are going well!!!

[@General_Li_Shin]

lol one gen while they get tape out 18A hmm

[@25MHzisbest]

@@General_Li_Shin Do you follow there share price?

[@xlr555usa]

There were issues with Amd 7000 series cpus and motherboards, that’s all snoozetubers were talking about and now all they are talking about is Intel cpus and motherboards. There is a story here somewhere, maybe. People have short term memories and pick sides all the time.

[@BreakingDimes]

Well there was a rare issue mainly on Asus boards where it would fry the SOC and you can see the chips burning

[@CaptainScorpio24]

lovely background and B roll guys . 😊

[@dmitry5297]

When I used the Intel XTU, it would apply bizarre voltages and change it to static instead of adaptive on some of the cores. CPU got degraded big time.

[@oppressorable]

I think there should be consequence for that. In the future, i think only profile that are explicitely confirmed as safe by intel for 24/24 use for the lifetime of the product should be used for test. Should they fail to communicate a safe profile, find the worst motherboard with the most awful vrm that you can find that are certified for the cpu and tone down the cpu until the vrm are at a temperature that would allow them to survive the waranty time. They allowed that subpar board to exist then it's what was intended as "safe". If Intel complain, twist their arms to have safe parameters and force it to be an official statement. Until they do we will try to find safe and conservative parameters.

[@Crazyneo2917]

Just Rma'ed 14900k for the same pc the second time in the last 3 months. Both of them are on decent b760 board. Now, there is an intel profile. Let's see how this goes.

[@garyb7193]

You're lucky they let you RMA for a 2nd time. Some aren't allowed to RMA even once. Especially with the new highly crippled performance profile Intel has recently put out.

[@Crazyneo2917]

@garyb7193 i didn't go into details. I work for an SI. And we don't want any of our customers to struggle with this B.S. . So once the problem is confirmed, we immediately replace the processor and send back the cpu after testing. The rma process takes time as it goes out of the country. We have been facing this issue from last year. This year, we wanted to ask users in pcmr forum if someone is having such issues. We had these issues with the 13th gen i9 processors, too. Only i9s. There has been no other RMA for any other processors in the last 2 years. Clearly, something is going on.

[@timothygibney159]

That board will go up in flames with that cpu. I gave up and switched to AMD. There boards will work with several gen CPUs and will be more future proof

[@Crazyneo2917]

@timothygibney159 Nope, it's an Asus Rog strix B760A gaming wifi. It can handle well over 350 watts on continuous power. Being an SI, we test these boards and pre-qualify them on the prebuilds. 1000s on unit sold, but some (4 in total) of these 14900K and 13900K had some issues related to the recent stories going around. While zero failures with other processors. And AMD always had issues and still has issues with ddr5. So nothing is a safe bet.

[@garyb7193]

@@Crazyneo2917 4 13900/14900k cpus out of thousands found to have issues, 2 of which you happened to have gotten? What shitty odds! Chances are you'd be refused another RMA before you find an Intel chip that will actually work stable for you. Good luck with that. 😂

[@munkus99]

Not sure how much the crashes can be attributed to silicon degradation. I have a brand new 14900K that will occassionally crash with the dreaded "Out of video memory" error when playing DirectX 12 games or when compiling shaders for those games. This is at PL1:320, PL2:320 with an Arctic Liquid Freezer III 360 AIO. Scaling back to PL1:253, PL2:253 stopped the crashing.

[@WSS_the_OG]

Kudos to the videographer / editor. The cutaway shots were fantastic! Totally forgot I was here for a tech / Intel video. Thumbs up!

[@mtunayucer]

Mmmmm so many camera angles!

[@whpony96]

The reason behind all of this is AMD. AMD is hot on the heals of Intel and for so long Intel simply felt AMD would never catch up. Now Intel is taking drastic measures and it's becoming drastic failures. The sad part is Intel does not believe this issue will effect sales down the road and it just a speed bump right now. The fact is when a consumer is looking at building a new PC or buying a new PC this entire fiasco will be in the back of consumers minds and the choice will be AMD over Intel.

[@slimal1]

So true. A few years ago when Zen started to mature, I decided that my next CPU would be AMD. But when I was ready to upgrade, AMD didn't have anything in my budget. And on the GPU side, I realized Nvidia performed a bit better in the games I play.

[@JackKramme]

is this issue also effecting the non K cpu's?

[@nekogami87]

I have to ask, did you have to get further and further from the entrance of the building at the start of the video because some staff complained multiple time ? seems you are getting further and further from it as the video goes on lol

[@Hardwareunboxed]

No, not at all. The hotel was amazing.

[@tudomerda]

BIOS software is stuck in the dark ages. there should be a one click setting in a drop down menu for a specific CPU, just as there is a one click setting for RAM, and then if one wants to one can tweak specific settings. Its absurd that a motherboard has rubbish default settings because of "one size fits all" from the lowest to highest end CPU.

[@Athinira]

Except for Intel CPUs, the default settings on pretty much every MOBO that isn't bad does what you ask. But silicon vary way too much for what you're asking to make any sense. As consumers, we should demand one thing specifically: every CPU and all RAM should run without problems on the default settings. Anything beyond that is up to tuning and how lucky you got in the silicon lottery.

[@OfSheikah]

didn't know the desktop space is in this narrative of dark age for state of BIOS that'd mean the state of laptop BIOS is in the voids

[@taxa1569]

In fact it's regressed. Kind of. Older Intel HEDT platforms from the OG x58 to x99 motherboards often had the choice to one click select another CPU to overclock AS. I don't remember how comprehensively they altered the voltages but clocks and multipliers all flipped over to the correct values, however stable it may or may not be. BUT I don't think it's because of removing the option. One Click overclocking and smart settings or whatever there may be more recently has practically made it unnecessary. Also the 'one size fits all' aspect still is just the easiest way to ensure optimal operation. Except that same 'one size fits all' isn't the same for all CPU's. When a setting in BIOS says 'auto' it doesn't mean free reign. It's auto based on the CPU installed. A 13400f won't have the same multipliers or voltages or practically anything as the 14900k. But it knows what they've been told they should be. The rubbish default settings are essentially down to negligence, wilful ignorance, or defects as we've seen. But then it becomes, who from? The CPU manufacturer? The motherboard manufacturer? By the way Intel seems to enjoy telling people, they don't want any of the blame. 'using xmp profiles is overclocking your CPU. Warranty voided' and yet of course if you don't use xmp you don't get the performance you paid for. And so comes the confusion of what IS the default you should be using Oh and that one click setting for ram. 'xmp profile' is in fact the one click setting for your CPU too. Your memory base clocks are tied to your CPU base clocks too. There are multipliers that affect one but not the other nowadays. It didn't used to be that way. Your memory clocks would be tied with your base clock and there maybe 3 multipliers you could strap it too for customisation purposes. One default, one higher, one lower. That's about it

[@RobBCactive]

The CPU has tables of volts/frequency curve for each core already. Not all have to reach the highest ST boost. The issue is Intel didn't police settings as used, which include things like lying about the power provision as inaccurate sensors can be used so have calibration possibilities. AMD ensured a level playing field with the "Optimized Defaults", but unpoliced by Intel each mobo manufacturer would have a team including over-clockers to get the most out of CPUs by default, as small performance differences in reviews make or break sales. Those guys have no data on longevity or even whether all models of a SKU run stably with their undervolts and other settings, which have to include turning CPU protection features off.

[@grievesy83]

1:54 Kinda weird finding out that you two have legs. I mean, I assumed you did but seeing it was...

[@ahmedabdolghani8879]

>wake up >open KZbin >intel is suffering >happiness

[@MAREKPOW]

>no competition, AMD gets super expensive >SAD

[@FoxxFire]

I'd love to hear more about this subject in one of your upcoming podcast episodes. I understand you have recently discussed the Intel and board partners topic in a few episodes, but this is an excellent follow up to the previous conversations.

[@shabazz717]

Logos in those shirts need to be a bit smaller. lol

[@Hardwareunboxed]

Bigger? Got it.

[@Matt.Hurley]

​@@HardwareunboxedI hope there is a giant logo on the back

[@gikigill788]

​@@HardwareunboxedDon't stop until it can be seen from space or at least the ISS.

[@Shudgum]

my 12700k with msi z690 carbon motherboard still can't run XMP profile ram from corsair....

[@Hardwareunboxed]

That's probably a compatibility issue.

[@Shudgum]

@@Hardwareunboxed thank you for the resposne, I checked the ram model is supported on their mobo page, but I given up, I was getting blue screens after couple of working hours and I didn't want to corrupt my drives, one beta bios worked for longer time then same issue BSOD, I gave up, waiting for and 90XX and switch

[@kenshirogenjuro873]

Intel never objected to any of this when these settings were being used to help Raptor Lake benchmark better all this time

[@Akkbar21]

So is my 12700k gonna degrade running with stock setting but w/ no PL on an Asus z690 prime board?

[@BreakingDimes]

I don't think 12th generation is affected by this

[@auritro3903]

No. Only 13900K and 14900K seems to be affected to this problem(from what most people have tested at least).

[@AgentSmith911]

Yet Intel still has close to 80% market share, what are these companies thinking?!

[@grena1870]

You cannot change the market share in one night or one day, week, or year. The "market share" you considered, it includes older CPUs as well. So it will change in time as the older CPUs begin to disappear. For instance, that 80% was around 2018-ish(?) i don't remember the year. In 2024, now it's around 65%-35% and in last couple years. Those problems about intel, didn't bother the board manufacturers. And people had to buy laptops // pre-built intel systems. They could still sell them. It wasn't something 'unsellable'. Not everyone is building on system as you know. But NOW it's bothering the board manufacturers as well. So yeah. That's really bad news for intel.

[@EbonySaints]

OEM deals and inertia. If it's any consolation, that 80% is down from >90% eight years ago.

[@AgentSmith911]

@@grena1870 There are several sources with reports of sales numbers about brand NEW CPU sales, and when it comes to laptops and OEMs, Intel has had close to 80% market share for years now, and it hasn't improved that much. Ideally, Intel should have 30% market share, AMD 30%, ARM 20% and others 20%. If you go to the Dell and HP websites, you will see how few machines they sell with AMD, and how often when a workplace buys new laptops, it's got an Intel in it.

[@AgentSmith911]

@@EbonySaints I'm guessing a lot of these business deals are very long term (several years) as AMDs Epyc server CPUs are performing a lot better than Intel's Xeon CPUs, yet AMD only has a 10% market share. But at least it's slowly improving.

[@auritro3903]

The performance of products does not dictate market share. The sales do. Even though AMD CPUs are(in most cases) better than Intel's at the moment, Intel still earns more than twice the amount of money as AMD does from just CPUs alone. Most of these sales come from Laptops, where Intel has traditionally been(and still is) dominating in. Laptops such as ThinkPad, VivoBook, Aspire, IdeaPad etc. generally use Intel Processors, and are all some of the best selling laptops in the world. These generate money for the OEM's, that's why you are 5x more likely to see a Laptop with an Intel processor than a Laptop with an AMD one. This is also partially the reason why AMD is lot stronger in Desktop and Servers. Even though Intel still holds at least 70% market share in either, its still better than AMD's

[@armani22]

Funny you don't name a source ? Was it someone from Asus , MSI , Intel ? Nothing is fact without a reputable source , all speculation and conjecture . If you can't tell us the source it's best to not post anything as you are just adding to the confusion and exposing yourself up to a lawsuit

[@0o9ijnbhytgr]

great content!

[@spoots1234]

First thing i did with my 14600k is set my own power limits. Just doesn't make sense to let the chip run beyond 125w.

[@abhishekdhoriyani2312]

normal costumers have no idea about bios or how to set power profile they just use default that was the problem, mobo running on overpower settings by default,

[@MrPyroblastic]

Intel does sell CPUs at a false declared speed. Simple as that. Load the “stock” settings and you won’t get the speed written on the CPU box. This should be a subject of economic legal investigation.

[@bearzilla2462]

You have no clue about the tech so just sit back down on your toilet seat.

[@Mirage_Unknown]

If I recall correctly, there was a legal case on this, and intels rationale was that their non turbo base clock pl1 is the stock performance, with turbo boost pl2 only being a possible maximum "up to". I think intel even said pl2 was considered overclocking or something insane like that. There was benchmarks cited and intel basically threw their own benchmarks under the bus and said it wasn't accurate because it wasn't tested at pl1 base clock. But my memory on this is fuzzy, so I could be mistaken. So a 14900k by that definition is only a 3.2 ghz p core, 2.4 ghz e core processor.

[@SpongeBob-DK]

Jeeez guys - that logo is waaaay too big on those shirts 😄

[@mariom1674]

Love the stalker-from-the-bush camera angles

[@g00dgh0st]

Very artistic shots in there. Interesting. Shots of the pool well the talking about motherboards... both are kinda rectangle-ish.

[@fugehdehyou]

Can someone tell the camera man to get out of the bush?? wtf is that angle bro 🤣🤣🤣

[@Hardwareunboxed]

It's the bush angle, bro.

[@brucethen]

He's Australian, they are all in the bush lol

[@QuentinStephens]

All this is saying to me, "Buy AMD".

[@auritro3903]

Intel is the biggest promoter of AMD products.

[@QuentinStephens]

@@auritro3903 Hahaha!

[@Gamecapturevideo]

The A/B cam setup looked great! Background on A cam of the high rises was sick! 👌👌👌

[@user-xz6it7rz3p]

Once upon a yesteryear Intel was so forthcoming with design and engineering details about their products I could crawl through the datasheet specifications for a given chipset and come up with my own board designs if I wanted. Now I can't find half of those on Intel's own website without painstaking effort and signing up for some account to download stuff. Intel has an internal cultural problem that's clearly having negative effects on their ability to communicate required information to the parties who need it. To say nothing of their removal of drivers for products past a certain age; as though that treasure trove of software was costing them more than the bad karma of screwing over countless former customers.

[@Tomica0009]

Why is Intel going so overboard with the (lack of) power limits in the first place? Is it because they are still on 14nm technology, so they want to keep up with AMD any way they can?

[@predator9909]

you got it

[@auritro3903]

Clarification - They are on 10nm, not 14nm. But yeah still worse than AMD using TSMC 5nm (now 4nm with Zen 5). Intel is jumping all the way to TSMC 3nm, while next year they they will use 1.8nm from their foundries. At least they are trying to improve, but only time shall tell...

[@TwujStary5000]

Intel is dead to me. Lack of invation, stupid TDP, not so great prices. Just got my 7800X3D. AMD FTW!

[@thestrykernet]

Everyone keeps talking about the power settings as if they didn't already exist. They've been in the reviewers guides from day one and the specification sheets you can download directly from Intel. The problem is that Intel doesn't actually set restrictions on board partners and doesn't seem to want to have a validation program to do so (they never have in the past to my knowledge). If there's silicon degradation then that's a warranty issue and there's no evidence that Intel created lower profiles to avoid claims. It's extremely unprofessional for you to be claiming this is the case with zero actual evidence to back up your claims. The rest of this video was really useful information and an appropriate spotlight.

[@GadgetGamesAU]

Great video fellas, enjoyed the talking heads style.

[@807800]

Come on guys, stop with the weird camera angle.

[@gamingunboxed5130]

No thanks boring Police, it's fun.

[@807800]

@@gamingunboxed5130 It's not fun.

[@rafaelacash7]

it’s just cool camera angles, your problem if you don’t fw it womp womp 😿

[@807800]

@@rafaelacash7 LOL. It's just my opinion. If you don't like it, so be it.