Intel's Tiles vs AMD's Chiplets

[@unclerubo]

"Love them to bits" must be one of the most British forms of appreciation I've ever heard. I'm not a native English speaker, though...

[@imadecoy.]

@Andrew Crews I don't know about often

[@sandorski56]

@Andrew Crews Sounds like a Dahmer quote.

[@alpha007org]

Every homeowner knows Tiles are the way to go with Modern Design. Easy cleaning, maintaining, and even Home Depo has them. ... am I in the wrong comment section? :))

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

Installation is so easy, too, once you have a nice flat surface to stick them on! Whether glue, mortar, or tongue-and-groove, they have you covered. ... you might be right.

[@alpha007org]

@@benjaminoechsli1941 Yea. I don't understand why people make everything so complicated. Even Google Now, when you call it, will tell you where is the closest store with Tiles. Probably price per tile too. I mean, wtf are you complicating for no reason?!?!

[@mcnugget9999]

Didn't know you had a KZbin channel. Extremely happy I stumbled upon it. Many thanks for your analysis. Cheers and best of luck with the channel!

[@TechTechPotato]

Welcome aboard!

[@fotmheki]

Intel's Tiles vs AMD's Chiplets vs TechTechPotato's Chips (made out of tasty silicon, of course)

[@2drealms196]

wait are we talking about chips aka french fries or chips as in Lay's potato chips?

[@YC-zq4nm]

@@2drealms196 We're talkin' bout both here.

[@SproutyPottedPlant]

@@2drealms196 walkers*

[@TuskForce]

@@2drealms196 yes

[@2drealms196]

@@TuskForce Do Pringle's chips still outperform Intel chips?

[@Steamrick]

I wonder how much the cost for the EMIB on that 47 tile moster is? I suspect it might well the the most expensive single component of ponte vecchio, though I have zero numbers to back it up. I wonder how long Intel will stick to using a parallel design? There's a reason (or more) that the vast majority of buses have gone serial.

[@haukionkannel]

These analytical videos are good! Keep on doing these!

[@5poolcatrush]

If those are "wires", is it correct to say that they can connect only the dies that are close to each other and there is no uniform connectivity in that 47-tile thing? Cuz Infinity Fabric connects everything with everything in all the ways

[@brokeandtired]

It will enable Intel to sell chips for peanuts...or in Intels case...Overprice them and make more money. I think I will grab my Intel 10400F while its still cheap.

[@rafaelmarkos4489]

Well, you can always have more EMIBs for bridging more tiles, but that again goes back to Dr. Cutress' aforementioned concerns about scalability. I think Intel has the upper hand as we move to more and more complex designs though, given that it doesn't face the latency issues that are already a concern in AMD's chiplet approach now. Also, the enterprise sector will pay whatever premium it is asked for, for an extra feature or some extra performance.

[@morpheus9137]

Super computers always use a crossbar switch. I'd be very surprised if they are expecting to just use 'wires'.

[@Leggir]

The best new tech channel on KZbin.

[@scubasausage]

So its going to be a bit like playing Civilization where having certain tiles near each other affords a unique bonus?

[@Winnetou17]

LoL, good question. The CPU and GPU district will get massive bonuses from the RAM district adiacency!

[@pelor92]

History has shown us (EE history anyway) is that while theoretically parallel links have very high throughputs, they are much more difficult to close timing with, as the speed is limited by the slowest wire, and serial connections out-speed them in the end. If I was a betting men I would do it on EMIB only being a stopgap until they develop their own infinity fabric type interconnect

[@5poolcatrush]

yeah passive interposers are just a step before active ones. intel describing it as advantage over AMD's approach is just a typical intel

[@rougenaxela]

This is perhaps a little out-there, but I find myself wondering... if some day there might end up being optical interconnects for these sorts of die-to-die links, based on silicon photonics and light-guide based interposers.

[@TechTechPotato]

Intel is working on integrated photonics. They had a large Intel labs day presentation on it in December.

[@rougenaxela]

@@TechTechPotato Yeah, I recall that being mentioned in your recent interview with Dr. Richard Uhlig. Found myself thinking back to that interview while watching this tiles/chiplets video. Would be interesting if some day that integrated photonics work ends up coming to market to address some of the limitations of the existing on-package interconnect solutions, though I'm not sure whether that's how things will pan out.

[@bmurph24]

Love the kitty you snuck it at the end!

[@TechTechPotato]

Always a cat tax

[@PassinGass]

So glued together huh, Intel?

[@artlessbene]

looks like they are glueing some chips together

[@AdamFitton]

Do chiplets make chip design easier, in that you can modularise development more?

[@stefangeorgeclaudiu]

Yes. Development and testing can be done separately and multiple chiplets can be developed in parallel, even using different process nodes and foundries. Chiplets using the same standard interface, for example AMD Infinity Fabric can be reused in multiple chip designs. It also makes it easier and faster to switch between ramping different chips and respond to demand changes, like AMD can do with core chiplets and chips for datacenter (EPYC) or desktop (Ryzen).

[@thiscouldntblowmore]

i just watched Eli rant how intel is dead company before watching this video, i find your take far more reasonable.

[@hughjassstudios9688]

Eli the computer guy? He's been doing hot takes since his channel has been on an unfortunate decline (as in decreasing growth)

[@TechTechPotato]

I just watched that video. Wow. Quoting the verge, then he pulls up MY ARTICLE from AnandTech, doesn't say where it's from, doesn't link to it. What a rip.

[@CaveyMoth]

I hope they use the ButterDonut Topology for their active interposer.

[@ander1482]

Ian what are the advantages of the chiplet and tile designs apart from higher yields?

[@TechTechPotato]

This was mentioned in the video. Serial bus vs parallel bus, better power efficiency

[@ZylonFPV]

This are going to get interesting if intel can compete again. Looking forward to years more of performance improvements!

[@solderbuff]

Fantastic channel!

[@dikbozo]

this video is exactly what I come here for. nerding out. thanks Dr.

[@mourikogoro9709]

Very informative!

[@Speak_Out_and_Remove_All_Doubt]

Do we still think there is room for TSMC manufactured 5nm monolithic CPUs this year and 3nm next year for Intel like so many prominent industry insiders are suggesting before we move onto tile based CPUs where Pat said Redwood cores and beyond would be node agnostic to allow for the likes of TSMC to help with production of different tiles?

[@glenwaldrop8166]

Mono chips still make sense for the low end and midrange. It's more cost effective on smaller chips. There is a cross over point where chiplets become cheaper. The packaging and additional labor/assembly costs add up and push the low end chips out of the cost effective sweet spot.

[@Speak_Out_and_Remove_All_Doubt]

@@glenwaldrop8166 yeah, I just couldn't decide from what Pat was saying whether Intel will make CPUs at TSMC this year on 5nm and next year on 3nm like is being rumoured or whether he was saying in 2023 with Redwood it was likes some of the tiles would be be made at TSMC.

[@plasma06]

Did they glue the tiles together?

[@morpheus9137]

The techincal term is called grout :)

[@rodrigoferreiramaciel4815]

I mean... is it really that hard to put them together if we have a 40+ tiles model? because if it's that hard they would probably have issues with mass production I think 🤔 wonder if it's just misconception of my part though

[@TechTechPotato]

Ponte Vecchio is a low volume product. But they've been working on this for 10+ years. Will have to build out multiple facilities and maintain consistency.

[@andljoy]

Intel are just gluing chips together .

[@wongkoewei9829]

@@wysetech2000 No, Intel once openly mocked AMD for gluing their CPUs together... So Intel IS slapping their own face

[@HutchinsonJC]

15 years ago would be 2006. Are you sure you got your information correct?

[@PlanetFrosty]

Most interesting discussion on tiles, but I can see Intel potentially facing some manufacturing challenges and QC.

[@ohareport]

this t-shirt is so awesome. i am weirdly tempted to develop some fna apps

[@WMRamadan]

Do you think we could get a CPU with an x86 chiplet and arm64 chiplet on the same CPU?

[@ArmiaKhairy]

This coluld be way too challenging to program because both Have an entirely different instruction sets.

[@AlexeiDimitri]

Alder Lakes is point us intel is going into this direction

[@ALTracer]

Arm TrustZone-enabled cores are already embedded into x86_64 CPUs in the form of Intel ME/AMD PSP.

[@davidgunther8428]

Yeah, the smallest parts won't make sense to make out of two pieces. There seems to be a floor of around $200 for AMD's compute + IO die packages.

[@erejnion]

I'd say the floor is actually around $100, considering the 3100 and 3300X... and the fact that the 3600 could be found for significantly less than $200. AMD's problem for offering low-end chiplet packages seems to be that their wield rate is just too good. So they never have a reason to sell 4 core stuff if the 6 core is selling like hotcakes. Also keeping GloFo busy with low-end monolithic chips worked quite well for them overall.

[@davidgunther8428]

@@erejnion back when X570 chipset came out there were numbers of the chipset costing $40-50 to the motherboard manufacturers. The X570 chipset is the same as the current IO die. I'd say they were offering the R3 3100 and 3300 at a loss, in limited numbers. Both chips were notorious for being impossible to find in stock.

[@erejnion]

@@davidgunther8428 I highly doubt they were selling the 3600s at a loss. And the 3100 and 3300X existed just because they had a few chiplets that couldn't get into 3600s. Of course they would sell a 3600 instead of a 3100/3300X if they can. Also, by your own math, 40-50usd for the huge 12nm I/O, and probably around the same for the tiny 7nm chiplet makes exactly under 100usd for one CPU.

[@dmn1n]

2:33 daam !! that thing scared me.

[@DaltonP386]

But but its a "glued-together".

[@cuongtang9539]

wich technology is better ? tiles or chiplets ?

[@ikjadoon]

On Chromebooks: how many will run Intel or even AMD, versus Mediatek / Rockchip / Qualcomm (in the future)? If cheaper + longer battery life + better Android compatibility are more important than raw speed, I’d wager Intel loses Chromebook CPU market share. I agree with the overall argument but Chromebooks may not long for x86.

[@davidfell5496]

Nice topic

[@nahuelcutrera]

will AMD improve their infinity fabric next generation ?? I hope so.

[@rezaramadea7574]

With DDR5 on the horizon, they should improve that

[@homejain4135]

moving forward according to amd's roadmap they will be using infinity architecture instead of just infinity fabric, tht will be combination of different interconnects working together

[@ebsmith1102]

The horse is out of the gate. Yet when I say glue Intel gets a very far off look on their corporate face.

[@pratikkore7947]

I'm pretty sure the YT algo doesn't have time to sample frames from each video for cat pics. 😂

[@spongebot64]

Intel bathroom tiles when

[@StayMadNobodycares]

with AMD shower curtains

[@mrshadow70835]

This is awesome

[@burandon4674]

So what Lake is this? 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@jintanmerah1237]

Cement Lake, useful for Intel Tiles.

[@Wahinies]

Epoxy Lake

[@StayMadNobodycares]

Camp Crystal Lake

[@any1alive]

Sooo ... chiplets with a few extra steps. chiplets on a mini board on the cpu board vs chiplets on the cpu board

[@JohnPlissken]

Intel is going to glue their chips together? That will never work. Intel told me so.

[@JohnPlissken]

@Le Wojak brr shhhh Intel said so.

[@JohnPlissken]

@Le Wojak brr I posted a link, several times, but I guess now KZbin is auto-deleting all comments that contain links. Just look up intel's comments about the launch of Epyc. Intel dismissed it as "4 glued together desktop chips".

[@TechTechPotato]

You mean a single slide in a technical press briefing built my engineers (not marketing) referring to the use of glue-logic? That's a bit different to creating banners that say 'GLUE INNIT' and becoming a marketing campaign

[@JohnPlissken]

@Le Wojak brr Intel's tiles are chiplets. It's just a different word for the same thing

[@JohnPlissken]

@Le Wojak brr Ryzen doesn't need an I/o chip either. And just because Ryzen isn't currently stacked doesn't mean it can't be.

[@sharoyveduchi]

7nm Intel is great news

[@playswithblades]

So fancy 13375p33k (sorry for butchering that youngen' spelling, I was young and eager many decdades ago, now... not) for what is basically SPI and ISA bus but 35 years later... I literally NEED to die every time marketing people open up their food holes and release the stank. Thanks, Dr. Even Cutlass for keeping us sane... or insane, depends on your view of the cat.

[@nivea878]

well firsr we have to wait till arrow lake, then we can speak about who has the better glue. personally i tend in Intels direction, because evem double the size of AMD 5nm vs 10nm Intel still better in some regards and even competitive

[@grndzro777]

You say better bandwidth and latency but you would be comparing that to IF 4.0

[@sailorbob74133]

Maybe you can fill the void left by Jim from AdoredTV? He did some really interesting big picture analysis that you might want to check out and even imitate ;-)

[@TechTechPotato]

I've been Senior CPU Editor for AnandTech for a decade. I've been going into the weeds of cpu design longer than Jim's channel has been about, to millions of readers. Jim used my work for a number of his research references ;)

[@sailorbob74133]

@@TechTechPotato I've enjoyed reading your articles for years and am really finding your youtube channel useful and informative, sorry if I insulted you at all, it wasn't my intention.

[@umeng2002]

Intel's new GPU: AMD Radeon's hardware scheduler glued to nVidia's CUDA and RT cores.

[@goodiezgrigis]

Anyone remember Intel few years back when ZEN came out, pointing with a finger and laughing at AMD "look they are glueing chips togather" Only few years behind with their own glue 🤣

[@TechTechPotato]

Glue logic is a technical term

[@ufsteropolstero6014]

That's so funny given that earliest Intel dual core desktop chips (Pentium Ds) and quad core chips (Q6600) were essentially dual dies packaged together. Q6600 especially sold like hot cakes.

[@BatTech]

You won't be laughing when Intel does it better

[@DuvJones]

@@TechTechPotato I am familiar with that, now. You and several others were responsible for explaining that to the rest of us. I thank you for that. Still it's rather funny when you look at Intel now, but that was something that was going on behind the scenes for a bit, clearly the marketing team didn't get that memo then.

[@miyagiryota9238]

@@TechTechPotato yeah but intel used it in a condescending way that time ! ROFL!

[@roccociccone597]

I remember when Intel was talking shit about AMD's chiplet approach.... How the turntables........

[@Tofilux]

Was here

[@irvingchies1626]

Came only for "fanfare.wav"

[@maxmagnus777]

Actually we do not care about anything but price/value. They could be selling tiny Fuhrer chips and we would still use them.

[@GabbyTech]

interesting

[@yanniskouretas8688]

Compute tiles - IO tiles - GPU tiles - HBM tiles (?) .... Could it be all in one package ? Someday ? Maybe ? I dream one SOC to rule them - one SOC to bring them (and into darkness bind them ?...)

[@TheCho-k4m]

GLUE.

[@pinkipromise]

intel made fun of amd chiplets

[@saricubra2867]

Me doing music production and console emulation: Monolithic or SoC. Everything else s*cks.

[@tringuyen7519]

From the sound of Intel tiles using EMIN, Alder Lake is going to be much more expensive than the AMD zen3+ counterparts.

[@Harish2923]

Alderlake will not have emib.

[@thebes118]

Eh, I'm a AMD fanboy anyway.....

[@organichand-pickedfree-ran1463]

It’s chiplets because otherwise they wouldnt have enough 7/10nm capacity I bet

[@acrodrigues1]

I`m still expeting a 3d printer that can print chips dammit!

[@GeoStreber]

Can we just continue to make fun of Intel for that "glued together" comment? Until.... well basically until the heat death of the universe.

[@Bubu567]

intel insults ryzen chiplets by calling them 'glued together', then lost on every benchmark, and then decided to rip off AMD by also going with chiplets.

[@k34561]

There was a new silicon created when companies like apple could be IP from ARM, Qualcomm, etc, slap it on a chip and make a product. Intel missed out on that market. Which technology would allow a company like Dell build an entire laptop laptop. Could Dell build an entire laptop with CPU tiles from Intel Memory tiles from Micron, graphics tiles from NVidia, SSD tiles from Samsunbg, etc. Or would it be easier to use chiplets like AMD's?

[@dikbozo]

good kitty tax. thanks.

[@hamzix6599]

intel is so good tbh say what you say about using 14nm for so long but with 14nm the can get 85% of ryzen 5nm performance imagine intel going 7nm the cpus will be soooo good

[@MdKobir-cv5ru]

মোঃকবিরহােসেন

[@theigpugamer]

Who's the imitator now 😂

[@aleksanderbatkowski6772]

Monolithic designs will be killed by limitation of what they will do. You going to end up with tools that use Large amount of resources once market adjusts to chiplet style designs with high amount of resources be it larger cache pool or graphic procesing memory pool even raw calculation from cpu. Wait 10 years and monolithic designs will get killed by simple excell or web ads.

[@virtualknight5669]

anyone saying amd will win know no thing intel already compete and have upper hand with outdated 10nm. imagine intel with 5nm and 3d packaging and photonic interconnection

[@subversive1219]

AMD for life!

[@alexpitt4583]

Can’t wait I’m a intel fan boy never had any problems with intel as for amd nothing but problems, not worry about saving a dollar here n there buying amd

[@fireroc2]

goodbye low ram latency :(