Intelligence: The Ability That D&D 5e Ruined (and How to Make INT Matter)

[@bobsmith8510]

I remember playing 3.5 and the amount of skill points you got was tied to your class plus your Int. If you were dumber you simply had fewer skills going forward, which you can imagine is important for anyone.

[@esperthebard]

I very much liked that skill system, except for when it came to creating monsters and NPCs. As a GM, it is just a tedious chore to be meticulously spending all those points on every single monster/NPC you make (and I make a lot). Of course, you can just ignore it or roughly estimate the skills, but then inevitably you get to moments in which the exact skill bonus is needed during combat or some other interaction with the players.

[@imoweenlodestone5447]

That's why I my homebrew game resembles 3.5e

[@justinthompson6364]

I do think class should play a factor too. Maybe replacing built-in expertise features with extra skill points.

[@AlexBermann]

​@justinthompson6364 It did. Every class gave you a certain amount of skill points in addition to your intelligence. The lowest was fighter with 2 points and I think the highest was rogue with 5 or 6. Furthermore, your class determined your class skills. Increasing a skill by 1 rank only took 1 skill point if it was a class skill, other skills costed 2 points to increase. One of the biggest changes in pathfinder was in how skill points and class skills interacted. It lade it so that the 1:1 ratio always applied, but that increasing a class skill to the first skill rank gives a +3 bonus on the skill. The system wasn't perfect. For example, wizards and sorcerers both had the same 2+into modifier/level skill points, but by focusing on their respective spellcasting ability score, wizards were backup skill monkeys and sorcerers could do almost nothing besides magic. I still think it is vastly superior to how 5th edition D&D handles it.

[@orcishkiwi]

Use Intelligence for Initiative. It's perhaps the easiest way to rebalance all the ability scores. This also helps bring Dexterity back down of it's throne. And lastly it makes a lot of sense - when someone says "use your initiative" they didn't mean do a backflip or perform sleight of hand (deciding what to do in combat and acting rationally under fire is mostly about the speed of your brain, not your hands).

[@KermodeBear]

I love how Pathfinder 2e handles initiative. Your initiative roll depends on what you're actually doing at the time combat starts. Are you hiding? Use your stealth ability, for example. It's a great way to allow characters to play more to their strengths. PF2e, honestly, solves many of my issues with 5e and is an overall better system, imho.

[@travisdonaldstanley6420]

Totally. I use Dex + Intelligence + Wisdom Modifiers and still use a d20.

[@Veckoza]

@@KermodeBear So when would you roll Strength for initiative? Or an attack roll? I can imagine a player saying "I was attacking him when combat started! My sword was in motion!"

[@jtjames79]

New home brew idea. Mental states determine the maximum length of time you get to plan your turn. Really high stats means you can phone a friend, ask the audience, or eliminate two choices. Wait, that's a different game, similar concept.

[@esbeng.s.a9761]

I would rather gives bonus to having a high int. Like the wizard meets a new monster and can use a history check to remember something about the monster they are up agaist, because he read about it in a book. Or give them bonus to find the most defentebel terrain to set up camp.

[@marcbelisle5685]

I totally agree, Esper. I think how easy it is to dump INT is a bit ridiculous, because it implies you have parties of below average intelligence heroes running around investigating things and solving problems, which doesn't make any sense. There needs to be more incentive to boost INT.

[@ianyoder2537]

One of my first characters I made was a doctor turned wizard. And it frustrated me to no end that medicine, the stat I wanted to base him around, was wisdom not intelligence.

[@dextra_24703]

I would say that Pathfinder 1e really just has most of these optional rules as a base in the system, character creation might be slow but the game is crunchy and fun if you play with the right people

[@dragonlord498]

ya pf1 is the system i play and its definitely i would say better overall then 5e least for those who are fine with numbers and maybe a bit of experience under their belt 5e is just to dumbed down and some strange changes though its probably better for a new player or least a group all trying it out at once without prior experience

[@justinthompson6364]

And D&D 3.5e, which Pathfinder 1e derives most of its mechanics from.

[@ranekeisenkralle8265]

Funnily enough, my Battlemaster Fighter does have an Int of 14 - which prompted him to pick up a couple levels of Wizard(2) and Artificer(2) each. The former out of curiosity, the latter as part of self-discovery (he's a warforged ex-soldier, trying to figure out why his unit never got reinforcements during a war of attrition when other warforged units did). That said, most of his spells are out-of-combat and/or utility types like Mold Earth (insta-trench), Message, Mending, that sort of stuff.That is because for damage he has either warhammer and shield (plus shield master) or a self-forged Adamantine Greatsword +2 Edit: It should be noted that originally neither of these classes were on my mind on how the character might progress. I like leaving that up to the developments in the story. Originally he was quartermaster of a unit of his kin, which in engagement after engagement got whittled down until there were but around 20 of them left - out of originally five hundred his unit started out with. (so 96% casualties) whereupon his unit was disbanded, rathern than be brought back to full strength (leaving him to wonder why) After that he took up work as mercenary and bodyguard - which is how he encountered the party and was hired as bodyguard for the wizard. It took a while, but eventually the party realized what a brilliant strategic mind he has - to the point where now he has his own military unit which is in the process of rebuilding an abandoned castle near the border into one hell of a strongpoint to be the anvil upon which he intends to break the BBEG's armies while the warforged himself along with the party is traveling the world to rally allies (to be the hammer coming down on said anvil).

[@DaDunge]

3:45 Or rude. My rogue is a noble so I have a low charisma but I also have the thing where I can add superiority dice to it which I will use when dealing with other nobles showing my character is quite good at speaking to his own kind.

[@mrfatmancory]

My friend had a good idea on how to use INT. Sometimes players do stupid things without thinking, liking going down a hall that might have traps carefree, or not checking room as thoroughly as they should. It happens. My dm's will give warnings, or hints to try and overcome this. So instead my friend would look at their int scores, and give or refrain from hints or warnings based on that.

[@hugofontes5708]

I do that too. If the GM is responsible for describing the environment and what characters see, I think we are partially responsible for the internal monologue as well, as if we are describing the filtered input of their mental landscape. But since Wisdom is tied to common sense, it might dictate when I actively pause the players timely before they are careless or else I just drop some insights when they are currently thinking about something.

[@Sorain1]

I've used it for social interactions a surprising amount of the time as a DM. Is there some courtly intrigue or reputation or recent/historical event relevant to the scene? The Int character is the guy who will either flat out know it or is likely to realize it's importance. (That's why 'knowledge' has to difficulties when I run things, a flat score where you just know it matters and a DC to realize it matters in that moment.) A couple of times I've had to pause an NPC's speaking to fill in the court of vipers BS going on and explain things only those high Int characters (or someone whos background means they'd know) are going to see. Just because your good at speaking doesn't mean you know why that baron speaks with a slight lisp, let alone how that relates to the matter at hand. Plus, yeah, the occasional 'given X character's intelligence, they can see Y going wrong with that idea'.

[@taglion8795]

Hey Esper! Fantastic video as usual. I have to say that the issues surrounding Intelligence in 5e has been a common discussion point amongst myself and my group. Some of your optional rulings to use are really interesting and I would love to give some a go at some point to see how they play. The rule my group has been using for a while now is similar to your first one involving skill points, but instead we simply play it so you get all your class and background proficiencies as usual, but then for every Int modifier point you gain a proficiency (so an Intelligence of 14 means you get 2 extra proficiencies). This work both ways, so if you start with an Int of 8 you lose a proficiency. I'd definitely like to try out your skill-point version instead though for sure!

[@esperthebard]

Thank you! What your group is doing sounds very similar. In effect, it's probably not much different at all.

[@wishfull3nigma]

When I'm dm'ing my way to make it seem impactful, without it being a rule system, is that when my players follow a plan that my high int players have scheemed, i make it have better odds of success. They don't know it, but some checks become easier, its still up to the dice, but they feel like like they are more prepared by the end in most cases. I don't make it harder for the low int players plans of course, just leave it as it would have been, but it only takes a few checks that are more difficult for them to feel like they could have done it better.

[@theprofessionalfence-sitter]

One problem, I'd say, is that a lot of skills that should depend on intelligence in some way (though not necessarily primarily) do not because they are already assigned to some other abilities. A solution might be to have each skill (or at least some skills, where it makes sense) be tied to two, instead of only one ability, so one could make medicine be int&wis, sleight of hand dex&int and persuasion int&cha. That would make intelligence into a more general 'out of combat' ability.

[@RoninCatholic]

Medicine should be an Intelligence skill, not a Wisdom skill. It's only a Wisdom skill _because_ Clerics and Druids are your "expected" healers and Wisdom is their main spellcasting stat.

[@DeadpoolAli]

I like how in starfinder it's INT, full stop. It's also not a dump stat in that game.

[@Sorain1]

It'd also give the traditional wizard some actual worldly knowledge to use in practice.

[@shishkabobby]

Strength is another stat that 5e has ruined. Now, I can find ways to replace strength with wisdom for grappling, or charisma for weapons attacks. My 'devistating smile' is apparently now disarming as well. Call me old-school, but intelligence should matter for skills and strength should matter for hand-to-and combat.

[@CraigSavage]

I've played that if you're proficient in an appropriate knowledge skill, you can learn something about a monster (e.g., a single vulnerability, resistance, etc) as a free action, once per turn at DC 10. Building the table to "this knowledge gets you these monster types" (such as, Nature lets you check plants and animals, but not fiends or celestials) can be a bit funky, but allowing 2 knowledges per monster type makes things somewhat balanced. It gets past the first round of "You hit it with fire, but it doesn't do as much damage as you expected", and only getting one per turn doesn't overshadow class abilities that get you more info.

[@TabletopBob]

Can't agree more. I miss the skill points of the 3e game. It made skills more granular than just proficient or not. You could sprinkle a few points to fill gaps of the party. And dedicate points to a handful of skills to always keep it at max if that was your role.

[@tkc1129]

I have actually been mulling a skill system like this over in my head recently. I've brainstormed enough houserules for it to no longer be 5e, so some of the thing I say here won't make sense in a 5e context. One of the main things is to make sure every class has some use for every ability score, beyond checks and saving throws. Doing so will give players increased freedom from samet "optimal" builds. INT's primary solution is in terms of getting skills like this, yeah. You took the concept a bit further than me in some areas like languages, and being able to get expertise in this way. I am considering some additional things, such as adding a skill for Vehicle proficiency, maybe re-adding Engineering, adding a Siege Weapon type, and maybe even requiring a character to buy weapon, armor, and spell focus category proficiencies in this way (spell foci are more interesting in what I have). Things do start to get a little funky in a few places there. For instance, I want to treat Siege Weapons as weapons, and at that point I am accepting buying Simple and Martial weapon proficiencies with INT. And would Engineering allow you to use Siege Weapons or Vehicles even if you weren't proficient? Would you need to make a check every time, slowing the game down? Also, forcing a Fighter to buy 3 armor proficiencies with INT is a little much, but it would be strange to have a single INT point give armor proficiency for all armor types you had some class eligibility with. It would be good to have special benefits for all classes, too. For Fighters, I was considering allowing them to gain a few superiority die/combat manuevers, cantrips, or exotic weapon proficiencies at certain intelligence levels, regardless of subclass. But I was planning on reworking Weapon Master to involve choosing exotic weapons. And would a class' special INT benefits compete with buying skill/tool proficiencies? There are a lot of ideas stepping on each others' toes. Anyway, those are things going through my head. Your idea on its own has some flaws because it totally changes multiclassing. I think vanilla, you do get skill proficiencies when you multiclass, but what you showed only provided that for Ranger and Rogue. Additionally, language proficiencies are almost worthless in 5e because any sort of telepathy and various magic spells get around the entire mechanic. It's also a bit strange that you gain 2 tool proficiencies at a time. MAYBE a single point to gain literary in all languages you can speak. Expertise is also extremely tempting for certain min-maxed builds, but that may be okay. So with that said, I think implementing a system that's like Point Buy would be an improvement to what you have. Once you have a certain number of Skills, they start costing more. That makes picking up languages and tools more tempting, and may allow you to "sell" tool proficiencies one at a time instead of in a bundle pack. I wouldn't have considered this if I hadn't seen this video. Of course, I strongly believe you would still need to nix telepathy getting around language; people organize their toughts with language, anyway, so telepathy when you don't share a language should be very hard. While INT is the most useless ability score, I think STR might be #2. There are so many ways to get around Strength, from Bags of Holding to Belts of Giant Strength, to finesse weapons and Warlock subclasses... But it is my strong belief that every class should benefit from every non-core ability score more than they already do. This will increase PC diversity at the table, give players more confidence in rolled ability scores, and give value to every single race/class combo (without whitewashing the whole system).

[@OMentertainment]

You can also re-implement old Thaco rules for Int, which made use of it far more. #ThacoRules

[@Leafy1-j1l]

Ehhh.. Demanding immediate actions and letting high-int characters use an egg timer really doesn't seem like it'd change much, if initiative is still resolved in order. Even if I'm playing a brick, I have everybody else's turn, plus the GM's turn, to think. It will decrease players dicking around on their phones and asking for recaps, though, so that's a net good.

[@owlthemolfar4690]

Thank you for the video! I just can't roleplay characters with low INT, so I always keep it at least at 12, better at 14. Even if it is not useful for the character mechanics wise. In an old PC game, Arcanum of Steamwork and Magic Obscura, I love that if your character has low INT, you just do not get 70%-90% of the dialog options in all conversations. No diplomacy for you either, no matter how high your charisma is. But random people can just give you money out of pity to your state. P.S. Sorry, due to irl stuff, I can't watch your videos regularly to up the algorithm.

[@Charlie.G506]

I always did the following: for every +1 mod in int you have a skill prof, for every +2 mod you gain one expertise. A character with 20 int would have 5 skill profs and 2 expertises, that and and bring some of the WIS depending saving throws to INT (like charm/mind control effects).

[@esperthebard]

But resisting charms and mind control has nothing to do with solving logic puzzles or book knowledge. They are about willpower, self-discipline, perception, judgement: Wisdom.

[@danielgriff2659]

How do you actually Roleplay a 20 Int though? Gets into justifiable metagaming at that point.

[@DeadpoolAli]

Sherlock Holmes, the doctor (who), house, kira/L, shikimaru, Lelouch, mr fantastic, iron man, Dr doom, lex Luther, Dexter (laboratory), the invoker (Dota) :)

[@ultimor1183]

Oh, another rule I want to add onto this pot, is a rule I stole from Call of Cthulhu. When my players have to roll to resist madness effects from the madness tables, I change it to an Intelligence save, where if you roll above the DC, you actually fail the check and suucumb to madness as you comprehend the horror of what you see before you. Meaning if your character has a LOW Intelligence, they might actually be too dumb to succeed and understand the horror of whatever is provoking the madness save, proving a minor benefit to having a low intelligence.

[@dminard1]

I use INT to determine carrry capacity. Characters can turn a bunch of items into a Pack. You cant access your Packs without a significant amount of time to unpack them. Higher int means more items in a pack and so they are able to carry more.

[@fhuber7507]

If we go back to 1E and 2E... Many of these ideas were part of the game. Players complain about taking away player agency when you try making these matter.

[@mitchrichardson1995]

A rule I heard of is by rolling intelligence you could remember information you heard or read so in combat you can roll intelligence then if you roll high enough you can remember a weakness or you can recall info from earlier in the campaign that might be important

[@justinthompson6364]

Sounds like Pathfinder 2e. But instead of raw intelligence rolls it would use a skill appropriate for the target of the check.

[@raytheerudite5252]

In my games, I use the word Cunning for the Int stat. It gives the players the sense of not only education or knowledge but swiftly thinking under pressure, craftiness, trickiness etc. 5E does lack consistant mechanics to make that obvious though. Every swing of the Greatsword is affected by Strength, each extra HP is noted etc.

[@orcishkiwi]

"swiftly thinking under pressure" - use this for rolling initiative then.

[@DarthSoto78]

Int. is your dump stat until a DM uses an intellect devourer, and basically have your character made useless. After that point you make sure to put a few points into int. just in case.

[@TwoKnowingRavens]

The quick and dirty way I've managed to solve "High vs Low" intelligence characters in my games is that I always use a turn timer. The higher your characters intelligence, the longer you get on your turn timer. (basically just a chess clock) It's a soft benefit, but it makes a huge difference if you can stick to it. If no choice can be made inside the given time then the character will perform a default pre-set action (Attack nearest enemy/use defensive ability etc) or they will find cover/move away from an enemy unless threatened. It makes combat fast paced and much more fun and challenging. Requires a good amount of group / GM trust to pull off however.

[@MichaelMackenzie-io3sj]

To play around with the timing idea, what I might consider doing is using the intelligence score to determine how many minutes you get to plan your turn. 13 or less, you get one minute. anything higher than that gets you a number of minutes equal to your intelligence modifier. I've already given them the option to go with additional skills, tools, languages, and a potential feat depending on intelligence scores in the next campaign. Unfortunately, I doubt WotC would even stop to consider how much the ability scores are used, and try to make each one be a bit more reliable. Strength is useful only for the type of armor you want to use, as only a few tables use encumbrance.

[@loganfrandrup6590]

My table has actually been using Skill Points already with someone elses system. In the version we use(by The Dungeon Inn) don't get any profitencies or languages for our background, just equipment and the background feature. Instead we get a set amount of skill points plus the our inteligence moidfer(or minus if it's negative, similar to consitution) and then we go off of the chart to what we can buy for what our character learned as part of their background. I have run it a few times at my tables and it turns out pretty well, becuase now they have to take into the fact that they might not be able to do as many things with their skills as normal and are more inclined to take it. So yeah, Skill Points is a very good start. Obviously the two versions are diffrent so I am going to look over both of them back to back to figure out which I want to use, but both seem like fine moves. I think Stratigizing might be for more advanced tables where you have more people that know how to play the game and want a bit more challange, works very well with those tables that have timed-turns as a house rule. Crafting though, that is VERY MUCH something I can use, in fact I can see that being very easy to go through for skill check for down time; our current DM is already using something similar already and it's been working fine.

[@yungminiwheat1406]

Perhaps Intelligence could interact with a character’s proficiency bonus in some way? Like a check you make with a skill or tool outside of combat could gain a bonus equal to your Intelligence modifier 🤔

[@awboqm]

I use a version of intelligence based skill points in my own games. When you make your character, your modifier will determine how many additional proficiencies you can add (or how many you need to remove if you have a

[@LadyTsunade777]

IMO trying to split mental things between Int, Wis, and Cha is an issue. I feel like a lot of issues could be solved if many things under Wis were split up between Int and Cha, and Wis maybe removed as a stat. I know that they try to flavor Int as "study and learning" and Wis as "inherent knowledge or practical experience", but other than Wizards exactly there is actually very little that cares about Int, and a lot of things that _should_ care about Int but instead care about Wis. Clerics should be an Int class because they study their God and its doctrine (plus Religion is already Int), most spell saves are Wis or Con instead of Int, Medicine should be Int, etc. The learning vs experience thing is also a big issue, since players can argue that a low Int but high Wis character could just as easily solve many puzzles or riddles.

[@esperthebard]

I like the mental abilities as they are, as they each cover different aspects of the mind. Using your cleric example, yes Intelligence relates to the knowledge of doctrines, but that's only one side of the coin. The other side is personal connectedness, awareness, spiritual communion with the Divine, openness of the self to have mystical experiences, self-discipline to practice the rituals and prayers and to stay focused when doing so, the willpower to resist psychological and spiritual temptations to betray one's religion ... all of these things are Wisdom and are not based on book knowledge.

[@TheMightyBattleSquid]

​@@esperthebardand medicine? lol

[@hugofontes5708]

​@@TheMightyBattleSquidperhaps if it was "Healing" rather than "Medicine" it could work as some "holistic" physical and spiritual thing. In the system I'm currently playing there's a region gods literally can't manifest at so they developed mundane medicine there and get to take something similar to a feat to roll Medicine with int.

[@hugofontes5708]

I like your idea. Personally, I look at Wis x Int x Cha as Input x Processing x Output. The game world has many layers, and the character interacts with it on physical, spiritual and philosophical level, so wisdom is how well the character can collect information from all that. Will saves are how well you filter harming influence into your mind. All that information can be connected to different information in different ways and yields valuable insight, so intelligence is how well the character stores and manipulates that information. Intelligence saves is you holding your brains together to preserve its contents and workings. Charisma can be straightforwardly put as the character expressing themselves or rather their self into the world, which fits the uses for art, social interactions and shaping reality through magic based on personal power. Charisma saves would be fighting off some repressive effect that's sapping your individuality and stifling your agency. So yeah, a high WIS could eventually solve a puzzle by noticing the solution in plain sight, but they might not find patterns nor figure out the optimal solution in their heads alone. High Int just cracks the puzzle the expected way.

[@supersmily5811]

One of the most damaging things about Intelligence in 5e is that you basically never need to have knowledge. If you need knowledge to play the game, modules teach to just hand it to the party, no strings attached. At some point the game becomes very different if the players can't know what they're supposed to be doing, so instead of needing to pass a check there's a baseline of knowledge that's expected to be found out naturally through the course of the game. As a result, OFTEN anything you stand to learn from an Intelligence skill check is always going to be superfluous. Elder Brains are supposed to be incredibly cunning adversaries capable of commanding armies into place with plans so complex it can be next to impossible to infiltrate them and get close enough to actually fight directly as a party. Except they have 21 Int., just slightly over the normal player cap to the degree of having the same +5. So in theory a player with a 20 Int character should be almost just as effective at countering their strategies. But that's NOT TRUE, IS IT? Because PLAYERS create the strategies for their characters, not the other way around. A player may not have 20 Int in real life, making foolish mistakes a genius wouldn't. Conversely a "dumb" character may make comparatively impressive tactical decisions due to being a martial and NEEDING that level of acumen to survive. Int is borked, and there's no reasonable real cure for it other than DM fiat. In most other fiction outside of ttrpgs Int is used to get around physical weakness, by using mutagens, possession, brain-swapping surgeries, high tech, or any number of other things to circumvent the need for innate physical prowess, or even to alter their innate capabilities so that they DO have it. But in D&D that'd be completely unacceptable, so there's no current precedent for dealing with this. We need a new mechanical idea. We need 20 Int.

[@Sorain1]

I've always wondered 'What happens if you just rename Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma into a single general 'Magic' score, and leave _only_ the other benefits to them?' Once you strip away the magical implications to them, you are left with 'book knowlage + maths', 'sensory acuity' and 'people skills' as stats... two of which sound more like skills to me. Maybe keep Charisma for the whole 'innate talent' angle and roll on from there with a new set of six stats?

[@alexeisenhauer5874]

13:40 When I play a Ranger I only put the minimum requirement in Wisdom because they’re useful enough with their non save spells. I’m playing a Moon Druid/Barbarian and I just have them prepare non-combat spells. Love your content, thank you!

[@josephpurdy8390]

If your character discovers the Tower of Babel. Intelligence is going to be at its most useful for gathering information.

[@ScythianGryphon]

Well, this was quite a stimulating presentation. We appreciate your efforts to bring intelligence to the new heights.

[@RoninCatholic]

The literacy based benchmarks for Intelligence would peg me somewhere in the 14-17 range, but my overall competence for things outside of comprehension of the written word is nowhere near that. Possibly a modest 11 or 12, but Proficiency added to basic literacy?

[@christopherjensen3034]

We could borrow initiative rules from Shadowrun. Initiative is dexterity + intelligence divided by 2. And add a 1/2 proficiency for each intelligence modifier.

[@rachdarastrix5251]

Problem solving is easy. First you have to wait 40 years to have enough room for the things you need to begin crafting tools.

[@kneeofjustice9619]

I can’t tell you how many times my players groan or shake with fear when I ask them to make investigation checks.

[@esperthebard]

How can you _make_ someone investigate? It's not like Perception, in which you see or hear things passively through your physical senses. Investigation requires actively choosing to search over fine details and mentally solve through information/clues.

[@kneeofjustice9619]

@@esperthebard because some things are hidden so well it takes more than just perception to find them or if my players are having a hard time figuring something out, I’ll ask them to make an investigation check to try and deduce the answer.

[@esperthebard]

@@kneeofjustice9619 For sure, Investigation is the skill for searching through tiny details and mental deduction, I suppose I'm just used to it being a skill that the players choose to actively do instead of one that I call for (like Perception to see if they noticed a hiding monster).

[@VioletDeliriums]

then there are the 5e DMs that never grasp the difference between "perception" and "investigation" and make you roll perception when you are trying to understand something...i had a rogue that i intentionally put a higher intelligence score on so that she could investigate, and the DM always made me roll perception...jayzuz f. kaboodle...in any case, i prefer OSR games to 5e because PC abilities are not as important as actually player competence, except when the scores are above or below average. moreover, you don't generally get the min-max opportunity of "dumping" a low score on something you don't want. you get what you get, and deal with it. :)

[@sneedfest3399]

I use INT as the limit for how many extra feats you can train in outside of ASI. Its not a good fix but it is -a- fix

[@GreyfauxxGaming]

So a +12 Int character would be equal to a current Rogue. This feels effectively like a buff to every other class but Rogue. Who now is locked into a Dex-Int build, instead of say CHA-WIS. I would prob have leave the skill tied to class/background the same. 12-13 = +1 Skill 14-15 = +1 more skill 16-17 = +1 Expertise 18-19 = +1 more expertise tool 20 = Either 2 skills or 1 more expertise, your choice.

[@jtjames79]

I let the entire table contribute to the wizards intelligence, the wizard character also has no limit on their turn length, also asked to roll for a clue. Unless the wizard is being played by an actual genius and/or an engineer. You can't fake being clever. But you can throw a lot of effort at it.

[@jonathanstern5537]

What I do is give/take away to/from people additional language, skill, and/or tool proficiencies in relation to their INT bonus. For example, Magda Bronzeboot is a Hill Dwarf Artificer with a +5 INT. She decided to put all of her intelligence into artisan tools. When she makes a tool, she has expertise in Cobbler's Tools (Artificer), Brewer's Supplies (Dwarf), Jeweler's Tools (Guild Artisan), Smiths Tools (Battle Smith), Thieves Tools (Artificer), and Tinker's Tools (Artificer). She adds Alchemy Supplies, Carpentry Tools, Leatherworker's Tools, Mason's Tools, and Woodcarver Tools due to her high intelligence.

[@camerongunn7906]

It seems that like the newer additions with all their glut of magic and classes with it, DnD has forgotten the original arcane spell slingers, wizards. Wizards were supposed to be the masters of all magic. We seem to have forgotten Elminster, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and others. Sure WoTC will use their names but they won't talk about what makes them special.

[@RoninCatholic]

Sorcerers in 3e basically sounded a death knell for the relevance of wizards. Were sorcerers INT-based but running off instinct instead of book learning, basically just wizards who were lucky and talented instead of disciplined and methodical, things would be different. We now have more Charisma-based spellcasters than non-Charisma spellcasters.

[@mrfrupo]

yeah @12:35, the character i'm playing now is a barbarian wizard. I use barbarian for the unarmored defense and wizard for blade singing. I don't even care about my int score, I only use spells to buff myself like haste, invisibility, silvery barbs, shadow blade, mirror image, shield. I rarely even rage, it's just there if I am up against the ropes and really need it or it's a great option when I'm out of spell slots. The most broken thing about being a low level wizard is using wizard only magic items. I don't see anything in the rules that says a level 1 wizard can't use a staff of power, or a staff of magi even, gaining them access to spells they could never even cast otherwise. So i am attuned to bracers of defense, ring of protection, and staff of power. These all give AC stacked with unarmored defense plus bladesinging gives more AC. I have the dual wielding feat which give me more AC. My highest stats are con and dex and then use a finesse weapon in my main hand and the staff of power in the other hand. Seems broken. My AC is 28 and I still can use shield or counterspell to further my defense, or silver barbs. Staff of power has the spell globe of invulnerability which makes it so I can't even be targeted by spells unless they come into melee range which then my barbarian side comes out... It's fun for me but I don't see how the DM is having any fun with that, lucky for me he's a good sport. staff of power is basically the best shield in the game :P

[@esperthebard]

I hear ya. As a GM, I don't use items like gauntlets of ogre strength, but instead items that give +2 (rare), +4 (very rare), and +6 (legendary) to a certain ability score. Also fyi cloak of displacement is rare, not uncommon. A strong item, though it has a number of balancing factors. It doesn't function against creatures with blindsight or truesight; if you take any damage, the effect stops till your next turn; the effect doesn't work if you get restrained or incapacitated.

[@RP-Dai]

I'm looking forward to seeing your video on the other stats Esper, Con and Wis in particular.

[@Luciferkragoth]

I like it being switched to initiative. But that being said, we could turn int into a similar Jack of all trades perk. Add half your int mod to skill checks you don't have prof in.

[@jloren4647]

Good topic! Ill give it a thumbs up!

[@purplehaze2358]

Obviously intelligence should just be gotten rid of entirely so that every character can be as dumb as Wizards of the Coast thinks D&D's playerbase is. (No I'm not serious.)

[@steeldrago73]

I just started the vid but your premise is why i keep the bonus spells. i was debating additional skills/knowledges but those have been made overly broad in some ways.

[@adamxei9073]

As an Artificer main, I use Intelligence all the time because for me it’s the only stat that matters. My crafting, my weapons, and I don’t even need strength for my armor.

[@PalleRasmussen]

I dunno. I am a historian, and my homebrew world is full of Lore. Much of which can help or hint at help to the players. They roll all the time. Sadly they all have Int as dump stat 😅😅

[@Zthewise]

All the skill point system does is punish lower intelligence characters. This can limit role play options because now you can't get as many proficiency bonuses. Unless I misunderstood and the skill points are additional things you get because you are so smart. Still has a bit of low intelligence FOMO.

[@geophrie8272]

I'm not super into the strategize rule. Takes to much control from the player. Rest of it is amazing

[@esperthebard]

Understandable. That one is the most difficult to implement. Actually, I think it would be a great feature for a video game.

[@hugofontes5708]

​@@esperthebardit did kinda sound like XCOM soldiers might not listen to you if they panic

[@danielgriff2659]

I think actually being made to RP your dumped INT stat would be fun and hilarious. It would have to be agreed upon at session 1, of course... and I like your definition of what each Int rank equates to in gameplay. Someone who dumps Int should be willing to let others lead, and if required, be Int checked for their clever ideas... they can say their ideas of course, and others with higher Int can steal or promote their ideas by repeating them.

[@ginger-ham4800]

Five Torches using minimum attribute requirements and splitting spells into Arcane, using INT, and Divine, using WIS, fixes this issue entirely.

[@CipherDVoid]

Homebrew Stat guide.. Constitution-I allow players to use Con stats to add 1 point in HP or Resistance with their class die. Example if you 15 in Con. You can have 5 Resistance points in fire, cold and necrotic. Giving your character some bulk. Strength- Is 10% your body weight is equal to the force. (FEATS can boost this) Dexterity- This is complex movement, from how many flips, or how fast your hands can move. Charisma- Is your level of influence. Persuade, inform or entertain. I added the priority function. If your charisma is higher your actions have priority. Wisdom, applied experience aka skills. I also use this with alignment to create XP modifier. Example you if your wisdom 14 and your alignment is lawful evil. This means you gain 1.4 XP by doing a lawful evil actions. Intelligence is knowledge gathered. Every subject you learn is 1 point of Intelligence. These subjects will build your potential. Example Diviniation + Infernal = you gain insight upon infernal subjects. Perhaps you want to synthesize a spell. You learned magic missile and fire ball. By sacrificing the knowledge of both spells you can merge the two. Nat 1 the spells hits you and your allies. Nat 20 the spell feels natural to you and permeantly learn the spell. I also use allow stat & feat modifications. In order to modify you take a subquest. The quest will challenge your character if you pass you gain a boost in your stats and feats. I created these in order to appeal to broad idea of what could happen. Also it helps with when characters are going above level 20. In my campaigns level 20 characters are champions of the realms. However those that dare go above 20 will have a bounty. I charge 1000gold for every level above 20. This is base your actions can increase or decrease your bounty. Think of the prestige system in Read Dead Redemption 2.

[@simonmoody8400]

In 3.5 I have often made characters where Int is fighting for the top attribute spot even for classes where it has no direct impact, both for character reasons and for the extra skill points. Intelligent Fighters were a staple. I haven't DM'd since 5e came out, but the weakness of Int as a stat is clear. Personally, I'd take a less 'ruled' approach. I think I'd go more downt he road of imposing ad hoc penalties in situations where a player has ignored their character's Int. If they have come up with a complex/smart/cunning plan that also lacks significant support from their skills/background/established charactarization. This could be up to the point of making the plan simply fail at a key moment (if the out of character'ness' was overly blatant, or the table had been warned previously on this topic). Wisdom, to a lesser degree, can be treated similarly, though it is slightly less clear cut. The other stats honestly don't really need it imho, the game mechanics 'should' correct. But, if a low Cha character was to give an impassioned speech to a crowd (again specially if the nature of what they say isn't supported elswhere in the characters wheelhouse), then I see no reason the DC wouldn't shift if the player was suddenly pulling out eloquent phrases from their character's lips. (Also a place where low Int might play a part and also give a penalty if they were to instead quote either in or out of game authors/cultural figures). All of that said, a skill point system that is less of a straight jacketed 'your proficient or not', feels much better, while it did add complexity in 3.5, being half way decent at a non class skill could be important for a character concept (not just stat wise, but how you see them functioning in the world), where 5e (unless you essentially turn backgrounds into 'pick 2 skills', makes it very tough to do that without significant sacrifice.

[@Joshuazx]

I think the problem is that the standard array requires you to suck in one category.

[@ThatJerseyBloke]

Well done for this because I for one like to play intelligent characters in campaigns. I always go for an intelligence of 12 or higher regardless of class to have something of an educated background. The only 10 in intelligence I recall playing is with a Half Orc Cleric/Thief that I had because they get -2 to Int. I usually play bards, thieves, wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and clerics.

[@anyoneatall3488]

What do you think of pathfinder 2e?

[@Jeromy1986]

Yeah, Wizards Of The Coast probably dumped Intelligence for fear of enraging their least intelligent players who would have no idea what this video is about but would attempt to badly argue against it nonetheless. 😂

[@UltraVioletKnight]

or you could just ditch 5e and use 3.5 or pathfinder

[@shishkabobby]

When did 'feared' replace 'frightened' to describe the victim of fear. If Pirate Robert fills me with dread, he is feared and I am frightened.

[@mgb360]

It's possible it started being used that way by being confused for the word "afeard"

[@Tualkaer]

So I love it when you put stuff like this up, but the image used for preview of video is so different from anything you have done before, my eye almost skimmed over it, thinking is was some music playlist collection.

[@MrChristophSteininge]

That is why I deem dnd5e a hacknslay game system, and I hate it! To this day I am dismayed to play 5e, but I do if I must. 3e or 3.5e are were my systems of choice. But these days I forgo dnd altogether. When I master I offer the choice of my own game system. No more iterations of a published game. No classes and no levels.

[@jakewarman7277]

I've considered just giving an extra language equal to ability modifier

[@s-o-tariknomad6970]

Personally, I think the secret to making INT for useful is splinting WIS between it and CHA. A stat that represents all information skills, recollection thought and observation, And a stat for Willpower and force of personality. It might make CHA too strong tho. and I'm not certain what would happen to WIS classes, but my gut tells me Druids/Rangers would be INT (since Nature & Survival would be INT skills in this) and Clerics would be CHA (because they are thematically close to Paladins and Warlocks). No notion for Monk however.

[@Joshuazx]

Characters should get more or fewer proficiencies with spells, skills, languages, tools, etc. based on their intelligence penalty or bonus.

[@TheJurzerker]

I like the skill point alternative, i dont like the strategizing thing. I think players should have control of their turn, and i dont think it would work as intended, as i am intimately familiar with 5e and could run a character well with no pauses, but someone else newer to the game would be punished even if they had the maximum amount of pauses. Also, nobody would get to narrate or describe their spell flavor or abilities, and it would turn combat into a slog of just rolling dice and doing math

[@gurugru5958]

These make a lot of sense. Of you want to fight, you pretty much have to invest in Constitution. It would make sense that if you want to have a lot of skills, you need to invest in Intelligence.

[@aquila1290]

I like many of the ideas, but I feel like this may basically act like a nerf to martial characters, who are already much weaker than casters. Many martial characters already have to invest into arguably the second worst ability score in DnD - strength, and being forced to invest into int as well to have any kind of versatility outside of combat would impact them quite a bit. Plus, many of these would just act as straight up buffs for the wizard, which is already the strongest class in DnD by many metrics.

[@jordanwhite8718]

I always try and have my players role, history, nature, arcana, or religion checks, just to see who has low intelligence. The funny thing is, it’s always the barbarian with an eight intelligence that passes my checks and the person with the high intelligence usually fails. Then I have to figure out how the hell a barbarian would know how magical runes work. I usually default to him remembering some thing. The elder of the village wants told him about magic. It gets really annoying sometimes.

[@RoninCatholic]

Dumb barbarians knowing runes makes sense to me. Especially if it's just one-off things like recognizing a rune of protection or a rune of destruction.

[@Rodrigo_Vega]

The way I see it, an un-ranked roll of that kind tells you how well a character can recall a piece of information based on their own standards of experience and education. A high roll doesn't magically summon unlikely knowledge within the brain of character. An equal roll from a character with ranks in that skill or of a class and background that _would_ be knowledgeable of such things should tell more than one that wouldn't know the first thing of what he's looking at. So if the barbarian rolls a 15 his "success" means he just knows those runes are bad news because some evil warlocks that almost destroyed his village once had similar symbols tattooed all over his body While a high-int wizard with the same roll would instead be able to read exactly what those runes say or what kind of magic they weave.

[@crankysmurf]

I homebrewed that PCs know additional languages based on their Int modifier.

Very good work Esper, it befuddles me how Intelligence has become so unimportant. I think all skills should be important to some level and none should be dumping skills, but INT should really not be. If you are a complete idiot, no matter how charismatic you are you are not going to persuade a highly intelligent person nearly as easily as you would if you were both Charismatic and Intelligent.

[@raff3486]

Some really interesting ideas here. Thanks for the great video!

[@TerrisH20]

Would the restrictions on higher level spells apply to up casting spells? Useing a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell with more power. There would be a rather strong argument against it applying, in the fact that not allowing it effectively blocks off a significant portion of the casters spell slots at higher levels.

[@esperthebard]

Yes, it applies to upcasting, as you are literally casting a spell of that higher level.

[@TerrisH20]

@@esperthebard hmm. Then Pehaphs a mechanic that drops the non functional spell slots to the highest functional spell level? Higher level builds would at least be simi-functional, rather then completely non-functional. Note: not that I would consider ever building something that way, I’m thinking of situations that temporarily drop a stat, and how the character Would operate until they fix it.

[@seanhansz2864]

I probably missed it, but are you suggesting that a weapon is a tool and that mass proficiencies in categories of weapons should be ceased? I like the idea that a character with a low intelligence only uses a club in melee or chucks rocks as a ranged attack. Mass proficiency should come at a cost as 5 skill points, or something. I do think that a background should come with a few skills either free or at 1/2 cost. Finally ‘artificers’ should not get bonus skills as they should either not exist or be relegated to NPC’s along with along with Dragonborn and the more exotic races not in the PH…🤠

[@esperthebard]

That suggestion was not intended. Weapon and tool are different things. Longsword is a weapon, smith's tools are a tool; thus why "weapons" and "tools" are two different sections in the PHB. Artificers, dragonborn, or whatever other character option "should not exist" is your personal preference, and when you run your own campaign, you are free to limit or restrict whatever class/race/etc. to suit your setting.

[@seanhansz2864]

@@esperthebard so being able to use 15 different weapons with proficiency makes sense regardless of intelligence?

[@ultimor1183]

I’m all for making intelligence more viable. But I think it would feel really bad if a player came up with a really creative and out of the box plan, but then gets shot down because someone buts in with “Hey your character isn’t smart enough to come up with that plan”, I prefer to just let players voice whatever plans they have, because usually they’re insane and will get them in trouble anyway lol. But I do very much like the skill points idea.

[@mrfrupo]

I pretty much always dump strength and then just get the uncommon ogre gauntlets. I go from an 8 to 19, +11. Some items in 5e are just too powerful based on their rarity and how easy they are to get. If the guantlets gave like +4 to strength capping at like 22 or so, then you would go from an 8 to 12. Still good but not broken and characters with a higher strength could still benefit from them. Another item is displacement cloak... uncommon. There is no reason why every person in the party couldn't be wearing one past level 8 and that would pretty much break the game. How is the DM going to have any fun when they just miss every attack? I made a character once that had a 27 ac with a displacement cloak on and the lucky feat.. I could never be hit. IF the DM managed to roll 2 nat 20's I would just use a luck point and make them roll again. If it wasn't another nat 20 it's going to miss. Yes I abused the displacement cloak but I think it is way too good for uncommon. I might even be tempted to say it should be legendary.

[@redfaux74]

It tells a lot how many views, likes and comments this crowd cares for INT. 😢 Esper, you are way beyond 5E. And this is brilliant. Back in the day, (1990ish) a wizard had to have an 18 INT to cast 9th level spells, 17 for 8th, 16 for 7th, and so on. The greatest thing I hate about 5E is that everything comes down to rolling in combat. It has become Dragon Ball Z. Rolling more dice. A bigger sword. Upgrading a Fireball. 🤢🤮 Elminster is sitting on the toilet with chronic intellectual diarrhea, wondering how dumb wizards have to be to think Fireball is the best damage spell. Are 4th level spells more powerful than 3rd? How much so? I had a Saurial Finhead Necromancer who rolled an 18 STR and 17 INT. My DM would NOT let me modify those for NOTHING. It was that characters goal in life to somehow, some way, get that 18 INT (and eventually a 19). Every level you had to roll to see if you could actually learn that spell you wanted. When I got to be 5th level, I rolled and was never able to be able to cast Fireball. The DM laughed hysterically. I didn't mind. We were allowed to create/research spells and INT was everything. How long it took to research a spell, modified by its level and yours, your chance for success (all per Wizards Handbook). It was incredibly fun. Good video. ❤ No. GREAT video.

[@Demolitiondude]

The solution is simple. Return to 3.5.

[@Pete_Screwball]

Alg boosting comment

[@alexanderchippel]

I really don't like the idea of giving real world time limits based on character stats. Oh what's that? You have a speech problem where you physically cannot describe what you want to do? Too bad. What's that? Your Internet connection is a bit sketchy because of a storm and you had to repeat yourself twice? Too bad. Yeah I get that a lot people go way to far with trying to make D&D "accessible," but any rule that requires the player to have the same physical and mental capabilities as their character is just s terrible idea .

[@HozionWalker]

This is similar to what Jacob aka XP to level three did on his intelligence is dumb video. when Esper talk about skill points.

[@firebreathingcow]

If you really want to incentivize people investing in intelligence, take your INT score, divide it by 10, and multiply that by your experience/milestones earned, and that is the experience you get in the encounter. A character with 15 INT will gain 1.5 times as much xp as a character with 10. It makes sense to me because obviously a wizard can learn through INT using reading and writing, but to me INT is also your ability to assess and reflect. A fighter with high INT can reflect up their technique and learn more per fight than one who simply overpowers their enemies through sheer force and does not take the time to learn from the encounter.

[@SuperAmaton]

Can't say I agree with all your Ideas. But I certainly agree that someone with 10 Intelligence won't know about the Drow living in the underdark, whereas the one with 20 can tell the entire story of their fall, their worship of Lolth and several of their "secrets".

[@freischutz898]

You really impressed me, those had to be the worse rules that I have ever heard coming from someone who actually plays the game, they seem to be the product of white room theory crafting and some really weird assumptions about what’s intelligence and how does it work. First off strength is usually a better dumb stat unless that you need strength for something like a fighter with heavy weapons or armor, but most of the time rogues, rangers, monks and most types of fighters are better of just using dexterity only barbarians need to focus on strength, the carrying capacity is null if you get a bag of holding (that if the group even pay attention to that) and even escaping from grapples can be done with acrobatics for some reason. The use of saving throws and skills are completely under the DM fiat so if those not come often is your fault, not the skills or the ability scores and falling intelligence saves is usually really bad. About RP your stats are quite a problem since you not need to act worse in all those things your character mechanically is worse scores do not actually represent a numerical thing or a bench mark an ancient red dragon has a strength of 30 but nobody would suggest that the dragon only has the strength of 3 villagers the same way suggesting that a character with 6 int should be as dumb as an ape is ludicrous. 1 Rule: ok so not only you add a very cumbersome character creation rules but you also nerf skillful classes and overall make skills either too common or too rare, not to mention that by your own simulationist standards does not make any sense, how being intelligent makes you good in athletics or intimidation, sure that’s way the top students are always the most feared and the heroes on sports and you can end up with a Dragon born that does not speak draconic… good job. 2 Rule yeah, this one most certainly was not tasted and you just like how it sounds, combat is already the most slow and cumbersome part of the game, has the most rules and could it the most time so adding things to it just so you can punish people no MAD enough is likely the worse of the bunch. 3 Rule: son now you are going to adjudicate what’s a complex thought, what can they think and not? First common language and literacy are modern assumptions that are given in order to facilitate play since in spite of being realistic having to talk to a translator every time you find a new tribe only slows things down depending of the tone, I can see people dropping that but doing it just to punish people especially for MAD classes like monks and paladins is just bad. 4.Rule, so this is the best one but just because literally does nothing most of the time besides strong arm the ability score improvement into getting +2 intelligence, most spell casting classes are going to focus on that anyway and this only affects multi classing, the ranger and might as well just ban eldritch knights and arcane tricksters. If people at the very least try to play a on shot whit these kinds of rules before suggesting them this type of videos would be full or much more interesting and useful ideas.

[@aaronsalinas3854]

This is DMs fault. I use them all the time. So does the other dm we have

[@imoweenlodestone5447]

Beg to differ 3.5e made it crystal clear int played a roll when it comes to skills. My homebrew game i am running skills are important. For example, when you start in my homebrew game ,your int is 16, so the mod 3, you choose to be militia armsman you get 4 points. How this work 0 level 3 +2 armsman will give you 4, multiply 4 x5 20 points to utilize among your skill pools. Ever level you get 9 points per level. Its 3.5e but it fucking works