IRA Snafu: The U.S. is Losing Its Tool & Die Industry - Autoline After Hours 642

GUEST:
Laurie Harbour, CEO, Harbour Results
TOPICS:
How automakers are restructuring relationships with suppliers
The demise of the U.S. tooling industry
Toyota's pivot to EVs
PANEL:
Dan Carney, Design News
Gary Vasilash, on Automotive
John McElroy, Autoline.tv
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TWITTER: / autoline
FACEBOOK: / autolinenetwork
WEBSITE: www.autoline.tv

[@famnaff5136]

I love the way Gary says “Forget Tesla” even though Tesla is the point of reference for nearly everything you talked about.

[@danielcarlson8386]

42 seconds cycle time and they don't worry about it just do the best we can do and next week a little more efficient

[@danielcarlson8386]

10 hours and everyone else is 24 hours wow that's sad.

[@kylekleman]

Laurie is very knowledgeable and would be a great reoccurring guest!

[@aaronwalsh8469]

Yeah she was great

[@MikeRobot]

Totally agree.

[@douginorlando6260]

Laurie’s got my respect 100%

[@kevinmusyoka5940]

💯

[@tonygreen8221]

Laurie is one of the most knowledgeable guests that you have. More please.

[@tonamiplayman4305]

Laurie was Amazing. Very knowledgeable about the back end of the automotive industry.

[@smokey8400]

Laurie is a extremely knowledgeable of the auto industry she needs to be a regular like Munro

[@chiliphil64]

What is being said about the tooling industry is the same as many other trades. No training for 15 years and organisation want a quick fix due to there poor managment of the production.

[@bdeithrick]

And Orange 🍊

[@dclpgh]

You gotta love Gary...."Lets put Tesla to the side for a moment". Boy if I had a nickel....

[@sot8343]

Great guest, very knowledgeable.

[@Mike-pn3eg]

Called it a year or more ago Model 3/Y eating Toyota. Been watching commuters dump Corolla, and Camrys left and right.

[@wbouton100]

Great question Gary. The reduction of buttons in EVs make huge changes to die and casting. Laurie has mad knowledge, thanks for being on!

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

The reduction in buttons is not an EV thing, a 'lean design ICE OEM could just as easily done the same thing. It is lack of imagination, fear of change, and fear of scaring the customers that prevents ICE OEMs from doing the same despite already having consoles in their cars.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

@@johnpublicprofile6261 I blame Sandy Munro. I don't like going through menus. My wife can't tune the radio in her Mazda.

[@TheMELTDOWN911]

I worked for Delphi, TRW, ITW, ZF, KAMCO, LG and 2 or 3 more in 25 years! so Im 51 and retired thanks to TESLA investment ..Thank GOD... I hated everyday I had to deal with all the manufacturing nightmares cause due to the Purchasing departments

[@ElliottNest41]

Congratulations on your Tesla investment and subsequent retirement. Interesting insight regarding the impact of purchasing practices on the industry.

[@twan102000]

🎉 definitely congrats, way to go!

[@dclpgh]

Tool and die shop going up right beside the cathode plant in Austin Texas. Tesla has that covered.

[@MikeRobot]

Laurie knows her shit. Bring her back. We want more.

[@kevinmusyoka5940]

Absolutely 👍

[@rickw.9298]

Awesome peek behind the scenes of the tooling industry. Great show Laurie and guys!

[@SabeloMemela]

Excellent conversation. I’m a postgraduate Manufacturing engineer and I learnt so much listening to this conversation. Thank you

[@davidheron9677]

UK listener , listening to Laurie, who has great all-round understanding thanks

[@kenyongillespie8652]

The skill of workers in automotive and home industries are so much lower now than just twenty years ago.Laurie is a GREAT guest to have on the show.

[@ApteraEV2024]

Enjoy your Vacation JOHN! 🌇

[@craigarnold1212]

At Austin, next to the Cathode building, is the Die Building; about 3/8 of a mile NE from the main Giga factory. They are just finishing up the foundation and have most of the exterior walls up. The roof has been on for a month maybe? So far only the installation of bridge cranes on what appears to be two production lines. One of the lines has three sections of 20 foot deep reinforcements for equipment. All on top of geo-piers. So Tesla will be making dies. They probably will be looking for experienced leads and others.

[@rok1475]

I am surprised nobody mentioned the impact of the advancements in multi-axis CNC machining on T&D industry. You simply don’t need that many skilled people making molds and dies. You need a few people with 3D modeling skills and technicians tending the CNC machining centers. Older people with skills in manual machining are in much less demand and fewer job opportunities do not attract new talent to T&D business.

[@kschleic9053]

A competent multi-axis CNC shop isn't a T&D shop... It can make anything. Tools might be a part of the mix.

[@k34561]

Tesla is building a Tool and Die shop in Austin. From the looks of it, it has giga casting sized machine tools. There are specialized foundations for machine tools are massive. Two large grids of deep cement pylons where dug. Each grid is 9x14 spaced at about 5 feet so around 75x50 feet. On one of the grids, it looks like a 10 foot thick slab is being constructed. They have been working on the forms, rebar, conduits, etc. for several months. Looks very specialized. The overhead bridge cranes are equally massive. Giga casting sized 5-axis milling machine??????

[@timstrobel9220]

My father was a tool and die maker for tootsie toy...a small toy car company ..all their manufacturing shipped to China..no tool and die here....someone I know couldn't find a tool and die job...moved out of his apartment and left all of his expensive tools..very sad

[@ElliottNest41]

Excellent discussion. Thank you.

[@AllanSustainabilityFan]

The funny Tesla dig at the end with the "spy camera" spin story, ooo scary. Those living off that clickbait can't resist themselves lol. Otherwise great episode, thanks guys.

[@Derpy1969]

Tigers lost 6-3. The Celeatique is NOT using High pressure Gigacastings. It’s using low volume SAND castings (like you said Bob). Six small castings instead of two large castings.

[@AutoReport1]

The Celestiq is using a mega casting, but is too low volume for the big die casting machine. The engineer describes it as the kind of process used to validate a casting design for the big die casting machine.

[@philkipnis740]

I love the insights you and your guests bring to the program. Love 'um or hate' um, it's still great information. I say that driving a 2009 Genesis that is fantastic. Sadly, all the innovative features it debuted are now found on Honda Civics, but Hey, who ever thought you'd see a $45,000 Honda?! Great show and enjoy your vacation.

[@rwdplz1]

I'm THRILLED Rivian got burned by China. Why? The executives that didn't get fired will remember this going forward, and the company is still young, and this will likely be felt throughout their standard procedures and sourcing going forward.

[@bdeithrick]

They be busy soon with maxus Pick up

[@rodrigogaya5276]

Tesla is building their own die and cast shop at Austin. They're ahead of the game. First principle thinking ftw

[@brunoheggli2888]

Bullshit!

[@AutoReport1]

I don't think you're listening, the big OEMs all have tool and die shops. That's not where the problem is.

[@The01Director]

Andrew I would side with Gaya with this one. Tesla is much more vertically integrated, they should be doing better by bringing it in house. Giga castings is also reducing the number of parts, and also the number of companies needed to roll a model down the line. That being said it’s not just tool creators that are a dieing breed, it’s every trades job that is getting harder and harder to find workers for. Tesla is looking ahead and bringing solutions in house. Everyone else has a union war that’s going to distract from this.

[@kschleic9053]

​@@AutoReport1 I think the point being made is that the lack of US capacity for extremely large casting die manufacturing might be solved via in-soucing, not tier 2 pivoting.

[@AutoReport1]

@@kschleic9053 that's not even the topic.

[@frankcoffey]

Another great show. Laurie has some great insight.

[@kylekleman]

The Mach E sales were down because they are increasing the capacity and retooling the line! They made 0 cars in January and barely any in Feb. Their March run rate if applied to all three months would have exceeded the I.D. 4 volumes by around 60%! Easy answers Gary if you just read a bit.

[@briansproat7904]

Laurie needs to be a regular guest John. Make it so.

[@twan102000]

She schooled the shit out of the three windbag parrots, what a badass!

[@satay8167]

Laurie have the uptodate knowledge and memory. I am so impressed

[@carleadie6022]

Experts in the tool & die industry have been warning the USA about this problem for forty year's. The only tool company in the USA that could build these tools are the ship yards in the USA that build aircraft carriers.

[@zekew2418]

Sandy has often said I tell MBA Accountants "don't save me money". it will cost more in the end.

[@andrewsaint6581]

"I can't afford it!"

[@Jasonfallen71]

Tesla bought their own tool and die shop years ago and they are incorporating the whole tool and die making for total vertical integration. There’s a huge building under construction now called “tool and die shop”. America isn’t losing its abilities… traditional OEM’s abandoned the US because the GOP gave companies tax credits to move those operations overseas, to harm union membership. Just a correction to the usual talking points, and written before the show started.

[@robertstout7756]

Excellent podcast thank you!

[@gmv0553]

Aptera has the right idea partnering up with CPC in Italy and building a vehicle that can only go together with a perfect fit! Sandy Munro claims this process is the future and Tesla should go in that direction also!

[@frankcoffey]

When a customer buys an EV that takes one sale away from someone. Japanese automakers are losing the most. Tesla buyers used to buy Toyota, Lexus, Subaru, Nissan, Honda, etc. You would think it would be German brands because of the price range but it’s not now.

[@ElliottNest41]

Excellent point. You are spot on.

[@korenstewart7450]

US Admin needs to tariff the Korean tooling as well - not just China.

[@kylekleman]

Comparing Tesla’s Q4 sales to Q1 makes no sense. Their most productive factory shuts down for multiple weeks due to the Chinese new year in Jan/Feb. YOY they increased deliveries by 36%! They are still supply limited for many markets and the sky isn’t falling. Expect sales to continue as Austin and Berlin keep adding production volumes this year.

[@jdcarguy1242]

Toyota is leveraged to highly. Interest costs hammered their bottom line.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

That was fine when people were buying their cars with proven, reliable designs. Now all they see is Tesla's taillights.

[@typxxilps]

great show full of new insights - here economy is still constantly growing - but at low level. But it is always a question from where you are coming and where you are right now compared to the start of the decade. We have already the business volume of pre corona and growth is not stalling but if growing only slow. All energy related industries are full of orders, the whole private sector is moving to solar power and ev and heatpumps to replace gas and oil fully and finally, also solar panel production is coming back too. Car industry is growing - slowly in production , but more in revenue, but the order situation is like 911 as many call it hard to predict and develope sustainable predictions and planings.

[@JT_771]

The things that some people worry about.

[@65fayetteville]

The IRS is also to blame, I worked at a large Drilling supply company. They needed a large milling center, we could not buy the milling center we wanted without a penalty since a foreign milling center was cheaper. We knew from other companies that the American Machine was trouble free and would last for 4-5 years. The foreign machine was prone to failures from the start according to 5 other companies. The other problem was software was Func and the machine maker always say it a problem with the software or hardware. Each was independent and would not take responsibility for the machine not working. We decided to pay the penalty and ordered the Machine. Then when the company called for our installation team to come to the factory in Scotland for training. The American company had transferred our order to it's Scottish branch

[@edwarddejong8025]

The giant castings will create some serious repair problems for body shops, because after an accident, you can't replace the whole half of a car...

[@andrewsaint6581]

The publicly stated plan is that there are sacrificial bodywork support elements. These can be ground off and replacements bolted on for low speed collision repairs. A collision with the force to write off a casting would write off the monocoque of any car.

[@robertstout7756]

Laurie is amazingly knowledgeable

[@pmatzl]

The ID.4 is the first EV analog to the Camry/Accord. It succeeds by doing many things well and appealing to the majority of consumers, who aren't enthusiasts.

[@johnpublicprofile6261]

TESLA MOWING DOWN A CHILD? Come on Dan, that hit-piece has been thoroughly debunked.

[@tedg1609]

These old guys don’t admit their fear of change, so they make awkward critical comments that make themselves just sound out of touch.

[@CliffKarrow]

That was definitely a cringe moment.

[@MikeRobot]

Mach-e and volt are not constrained. They are purposely low volume because they are a sales loss.

[@512Berlinetta]

And yet, we keep singing the song of "Exceptionalism" as the world passes us on by!

[@KingBravo-lo3vc]

Toyota is the most indebted company in the world. Interest rates went up.

[@johnkinsfather6369]

We are still waiting to see the first Mac e at our local Ford dealer. Why don’t they have a full range of colors and models.

[@desertdan100]

One thing that I was thinking of is that all of The EV companies still need motor and differential components. They still need gear sets and cast aluminum components . They still need wheels and brake components. There still is a need, but it is changing and evolving. Cars used to need a hand crank until electric starters came a long. Brass radiator components went away and polymers took their place. America needs to reinvent its manufacturing

[@jmbickham]

Yes and no. If they follow Tesla’s model, vertical integration, they will make a lot of these parts themselves going forward for EVs… if they go all-in, then they will become very heavily involved with Tier 1 -3 suppliers, working with them as if it’s their own factory. Have you seen the teardown of the Mach-E? It used hoses from ICE engines cooling systems for battery cooling… much thicker and heavier than needed given the significantly lower temps. Also the cooling loop design with much excessive hoses and unnecessary pumps. The automakers that survive the transition will have largely taken to the “best part is no part” mentality, constantly simplifying their designs which will improve profitability and reliability.

[@rok1475]

Thank Milton Friedman for absolving corporations from having any responsibility towards the communities they operate in. With corporations only responsible to shareholders for profits, the outsourcing to places with lower labor costs became inevitable.

[@reyblacque]

You might need to speak a bit louder, so those in the back can hear and understand what you just stated*****

[@DarkBrandon1]

Do these guys really not know that Q1 is a much weaker quarter than Q4? 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@edwarddejong8025]

Toyota had production problems which accounted for the 40% drop in sales. They foolishly had outsourced indirectly to China, didn't realize it, and although they ran out of parts much later than everyone else, when they did run out, their vaunted just-in-time parts inventory system bit them in the rear in a big way. They are still way below normal in production of their most popular vehicles. Nobody in a Japanese company will ever admit they made big mistakes; it is a cultural thing, and they wait until the Chairman resigns, which he just did.

[@canuckted1]

John, great show! but clean your camera lense - you look like you’re in a fog compared to your guests. 😅

[@robertstout7756]

Typically fourth-quarter car sales are higher than first quarter. Tesla’s first quarter 2023 was up 36% YOY. China plant was shut down for eight days for the Chinese holiday reducing production days significantly over the last year‘s fourth quarter.

[@charlesrovira5707]

I think that *Toyota's* _pivot_ might turn into a death spiral. They have a _long row to hoe_ before they get car _one_ out of their plants. Who knows if the *banks* can wait that long? Who knows if the investors will like having their stock downgraded, possibly all the way to *_junk_*_ status._

[@danielcarlson8386]

The price drop was from the high back to its normal Price and now. They dropped it a little bit more.

[@johnkinsfather6369]

What about all these new factories being built that all will need parts.

[@Dularr]

Did they forget Good Friday?

[@davidpearn5925]

What do Tesla tool and dye makers do to fill in the day ? Does their ageing looks mean that they don’t actually have any ?

[@edmundlively8137]

Both the automotive manufacturers and the UAW are both getting squeezed but there is a way around that if Congress will stop taxing corporations, capital gains, and payrolls then business will speed up, unemployment will drop, but Congress can then shrink the M2 money supply to prevent inflation by taxing real property. A land tax doesn't slow production 😊

[@andrewsaint6581]

Affects the bottom line though. Look at the footprint of the Fremont factory and see that in less space Shanghai makes more cars, faster. Taxing the ground area would be a killer for legacy auto.

[@gridjac]

Seems like vertical integration is the way to go.. including their own die casting. Like Laurie says, if you don’t need transmissions anymore.. why can’t those workers be trained to work on new systems? And how long until automation can take on more and more? VW is investing hundreds of billions to transform their business. If the OEM’s want to compete, it sounds like they’ll have to invest those large sums also. As far the UAW.. they absolutely need better wages. That’s fair, they should be paid better than Amazon. But they also have to be careful.. they can easily cut off their nose to spite their face, too. This conversation just makes me respect Tesla more and more. They can’t do much wrong. The thing is, they have the room to reduce their prices and still make a profit. BYD might too, to some extent, but no one else does.

[@ToneGuruLA]

Dan, if you are concerned about children getting run down by cars, you should be purchasing a Tesla and encouraging others to do the same. Tesla is the safest car on the road, and with FSD engaged even safer. PS. Another good show John. Laurie is a wealth of knowledge.... thanks.

[@Carguytct]

I guess dan is on the payroll of dan o'dowd.

[@karlInSanDiego]

One of the most environmentally costly materials to work with outside of batteries, is aluminum forming and heat treating. Sure you can recycle aluminum, but those castings are not emissions free. Automakers were warned years ago that steel is much more environmentally sustainable than aluminum, both regarding production and repairability. Tesla has ignored this with gigacastings.

[@echoeversky]

Well to be fair Tesla has done the math for energy sustainability for the world in Master Plan Part 3. Oh hey they use steel too!

[@aurelio-reymilaorcabal9669]

You haven't been watching ALL OF Sandy Munros vloggs in Munro Live, especially the last vloggs were he said Tesla giga casting has the most in recycling and efficiency.

[@user-wz8hp2ix9f]

It sounds like cross the arms and complain while the world is moving forward.

[@johnkinsfather6369]

Still concerned about how you repair a damaged vehicle with has large cast aluminum parts.

[@dclpgh]

Well if you happen to walk away from a accident that will damage a cast that massive, You deserve another car!

[@bernardoalejandro2118]

MLB is yesterday’s sports. Like like ice vehicles. Soccer ( futbol ) is where all the major investments are heading

[@tomearly6165]

You should have Ezra Dyer of Car and Driver to tell about Ford eating Tesla’s lunch

[@jamesvandamme7786]

When is that going to start??

[@ElliottNest41]

That would be fascinating since the apparent evidence suggests Tesla is eating Ford’s breakfast, lunch and dinner. I’ll tune in.

[@tomearly6165]

@@ElliottNest41 snark

[@tomearly6165]

@@jamesvandamme7786 snark

[@jamesvandamme7786]

@@tomearly6165 Well, they're shut down to retool for higher Mach e production. Shifting into second gear, so to speak. They have some experience building cars so I wouldn't count them out just yet.

[@azamalonaizy1094]

With all due respect, this seems to me like "protect the tool makers at the expense of the OEMs", and it is spun as OEMs don't know what is their best interest. Basically, let OEMs be forced to buy at higher prices and pass the costs to the American costumer because we can't compete. I find it amazing how the narrative is spun as "what we want is good for you. Believe me" and is believed as evident by the comments here.

[@gmv0553]

The Wagoneer has competition from GM in this segment and they have dominated that segment for years! The Tahoe and Yukon are 1 and 2 in sales and the Escalade dominates the luxury segment!

[@MFoley-tv3zh]

Rivian and Lucid. They are safe for at least two years. I’d not venture a guess beyond that. Judging by what’s been said about the UAW, I think we all see rocky times ahead for GM, Ford, and Stellantis. Hydrogen. For practical purposes, it’s a petroleum product, and it’s not cheap. Hydrogen fueling stations are, and will always be more expensive than gasoline stations. It’s just physics. Hydrogen is harder (more expensive) to handle than gasoline. A gas station is and always will be more expensive than an EV charge station. To oversimplify, the maintenance costs are just higher than wires and a box of electronics in a parking lot. This leads to Toyota and everyone else involved with hydrogen. Money for R&D. Look up Toyota’s debt. Ouch! Compound that with the drop in sales and lost profit. Can they really afford to be everything for every customer? Batteries are practical today, and will only get cheaper. Although there are some hydrogen stations in California and a few more in Asia, it isn’t practical today and will only fall further behind. Additionally, the best way to produce it isn’t ready, and it doesn’t help the petroleum industry (the quiet force behind these subsidies). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_gas_reactor Ford Why can’t/haven’t they produced more EVs? Because they didn’t plan early enough for the long lead items. As you all know, building the infrastructure takes years. You have to build the factory and ramp up cell volume to make the batteries. The limiting factor is how many can get every quarter. This also affects Toyota. How quickly can they pivot and scale up? Everything depends on getting cells. Add the issue of geopolitics and things get more complicated.

[@NewCastleIndiana]

I think they don’t have that long.

[@MFoley-tv3zh]

@@NewCastleIndiana Their burn rate will allow for at least two years, but will they continue their current trends? I don’t know. Will an outside investor come in? Can they lower production costs enough to make a profit? They need to have the right answer to these questions and more. From the outside looking in, I don’t see any good answers.

[@davidmenasco5743]

How can Toyota possibly get the materials they need in order to suddenly start shipping lots of good EVs? Is there any chance they can access those materials in the next three years? If Tesla Mexico and BYD and maybe even VW all start selling EVs that are better than a Corolla, for the same price or less (which they all likely will in about a year and a half), Toyota had better have their answer within -- I'm guessing eighteen months is the cutoff -- or else they'll be in really deep doo doo.

[@lighthousesaunders7242]

Good points. I'd add that Ford don't want to scale the Mach e and Lightening until they have a path to make them profitably. That's going to take a while.

[@MFoley-tv3zh]

@@davidmenasco5743 That’s the problem. Shipping a competitive product in 18 months? In volume? Not likely. Toyota needed to pivot eighteen months ago!

[@frankcoffey]

Why would Ford make more Mach-E if they lose money on every car?

[@jamesvandamme7786]

Once they get the design optimized, they can ramp up and get economies of scale. There will be a profit crossover point somewhere .... they hope. +

[@PtBm2975]

What’s up with this title? There was no discussion of the inflation reduction act, at least none that had anything to do with the decline in tool and die industry…🤔

[@richpadgitt2555]

More good news about Tesla

[@stevepeace231]

China achieves the lower cost by lowering the price of their currency. This makes it cheaper for US Companies to purchase with the Dollar. This is unfair to American workers and has resulted in the destruction of much of the US manufacturing industry. The tariffs should be linked to the US/China exchange rate so China does not gain an unfair advantage with currency manipulation.

[@ethanwelner1230]

This is what happens when you spend 2 decades only caring about your stock price, and not the long term health of your industry. American automakers would sell their own arms to make a quick buck. Why would they care if it all goes to hell after they already got their golden parachutes? Shareholder first capitalism will be the last form of it before it all falls apart.

[@johnkinsfather6369]

To much of an off-road image which negates their regular vehicles.

[@frankcoffey]

Toyota is a great example of believing your own propaganda. When the propaganda stops working you are in big trouble.

[@ajaxa9]

Interesting have a babbled away about relatively small unit sales from the OEMs of electric vehicles but then bashed Tesla for only having a 4% increase to hundreds of thousands of vehicles. If GM was smart they would fire Mary and hire Laurie. Hello and Sandy would make a great show.

[@normt430]

Tesla doesn't have ICE operations to wind down, plants to convert from ICE to EV, battery material sourcing, and billions in EV investments. Not to mention legacy costs of retirees...

[@danielcarlson8386]

Tesla starts at 40 plus benefits, stock, and !!?

[@scottbrown7415]

Laurie is talking truth! Chinese tools are a false bargain. That same half assed quality is what goes into the Chinese market cars as well. EV's in China routinely burst into flames.airbags fail to deploy in crashes, structures don't perform as intended because the steel is not to spec etc. Wouldn't it be ironic if China was able to put American auto makers out of business and never even have to set up a single sales network!

[@rok1475]

It has been mentioned that non-engineering management (finance, marketing, product development, procurement) have power to override engineering. That is the root of the problem.

[@jollygreen4662]

We need MADE IN AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

[@ApteraEV2024]

15:00 LETS STOP BEING CHEAP @$$$$$%%%%

[@ApteraEV2024]

Butt! PAY WITHIN REASON. !

[@ApteraEV2024]

MAKE QUALITY PRODUCT. AFFORDABLE FOR ALL, PAY 3% COST!

[@mxj247]

Here ya go John... kzbin.info/www/bejne/bInChqeDhpmWa9E

[@charlescole-p9v]

Toyota is about 200 billion in debt. Tesla hardly any.

[@davidmccarthy6061]

That isn't true debt. It's the normal revolving credit capital every large company has been using forever.

[@echoeversky]

I think the long term debt is 1 billion?

[@lp6696]

I am aware both Ford and gm borrow money at a given rate and then lend the money out at a higher rate to help finance vehicle sales. They have made billions over the years doing this. With debt, you need to figure out the amount not being used to directly finance vehicle sales and more long-term. I have started to put a little time into this each week I started with a Ford annual report if I can figure out a quick way to figure the above out I will share the method, I have no timeline for this task.

[@normt430]

GM & FORD GET CREDIT UPGRADES Good news for General Motors and Ford. Their debt ratings were raised from stable to positive. GM was upgraded to a BBB- rating and Ford got BB+. Fitch Ratings raised their ratings because it said both companies have improved their core operations and profitability. Even though you can find a number of KZbin videos saying GM and Ford will go out of business because they are getting crushed by their debt load, those analyses seem to ignore the fact that GM and Ford have large captive finance companies that borrow billions from institutional banks and then mark it up to lend it to car dealers and customers so they can buy cars. Last year GM Finance made a net profit of $1.2 billion on its debt, while Ford Credit made a profit of $4.5 billion on all the money that it borrowed. Autoline

[@lp6696]

@@normt430 I think the gm profit of 1.2 billion was just for Q4 and a quick search with Google shows GM Financial EBT-adjusted was around 4 billion for 2022

[@QuietStormX]

Everybody don't own or like Tesla design or none of it..

[@karlInSanDiego]

How is tooling down 40% in EVs? Folks keep overstating the difference in parts count between ICE and EV. It's just hype that these EVs aren't equally complex. Battery packs are extremely complex. Suspension and brakes are equivalent but slightly more complex if you allow EV to steer/acc/brake by wire not just passively but actively. Feature count is UP not down on EVs. Doors have electric openers AND mechanical backups. Door handles include motors. The body shells are not less complex. It's just uninvestigated repeating of falsehoods that EVs are less complex. Much of this narrative was told to us by Tesla who had no experience building engines or transmissions. They told you EVs had no coolant, no oil, no oil filter, no radiators, no oil pump, no water pump, and that was all false.

[@echoeversky]

For starters Tesla went from 170 parts to 2 with giga castings. Everyone has a chance to do thar eventually. ICE drivetrains are large chunks of metal and thousands more parts needed than EVs. Fewer moving parts is less friction. Lower number of fluids and lubricants. I propose that more of the manufacturing can be automated for EV's.