Is chain lube a waste of money?︱Cross Training Adventure

[@crosstrainingadventure]

EXTRA NOTES & GREAT VIEWER COMMENTS! Just heard from this dirt bike hire tour/hire business , stopped lubing chains years ago to see if it made any difference. Chain wear was identical with or without lube. That was across 10 bikes for years initially with chain lube, then a few years without. Backs up my experience to date. - P. Wheeler WHAT ABOUT ROAD BIKES? I suspect chain lube may be a good idea for long highway miles. I can't find studies to confirm this. Here is what Rob Y. said... "My street bikes, the chain runs cooler per infrared thermometer when there's lube on it (one hour test at 80+ mph). Experimented with running a dry chain, the rollers burnish themselves to a mirror shine. All the rollers still rotate freely and my chain is fine but I think there's definitely increased friction at least in high speed applications. I still use WD-40 to clean my chain. But, I throw on a thin layer of dry lubricant on the rollers..." FURTHER NOTES ABOUT KEROSENE Quite a few riders have mentioned they just use kerosene as it cleans the chain then leaves an oily residue which they believe is enough lubrication. Fortnine did a basic test that seems to indicate kerosene can get past o-rings... even on a brand new chain. WD40 was safe in this respect. See the vid. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6OooXSLnsSEgaM THE PERFECT CHAIN LUBE? "I use only the finest certified organic KTM tears. The highest grade is harvested from 790/890 riders with recurring electrical problems during the first month of the riding season." - Carlos "I use elephant semen imported from a secret wilderness in Tibet. My chain has lasted 2 billion miles." - LeFraud Has Choked In SIX Finals WHAT ARE THE INGREDIENTS FOR WD40? Mostly mineral oil according to this lab test! www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/ FURTHER READING Not a true scientific study, but one guy tested WD40, kerosene etc on o-rings: www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345397 What tends to cause o-rings to fail: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring#Failure_modes Performance benefits of lube for non-o-ring chains: www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ILT-10-2015-0142/full/html Fortnine's chain lube tests: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJ-zipeZl8h0m5I

[@arnandegans]

I use WD40 Specialist dry lube - Not sure if the lube bit is actually needed or useful, but it has an antirust thing in it and doesn't evaporate like traditional WD40.

[@axlsane427]

What do you think about Ballistol (or any CLP used for guns)? Thank you in advance.

[@Errol.C-nz]

dont use oils in dirty or sandy domains... dont go dry either.. melt teflon wax onto the chains.. drylube PS.. why do you dickheads ride around standing up along perfectly easy roads n tracks

[@whitedrguy6503]

After working as a motorcycle courier for over 20+years I always used chain lube and regularly got between 35 - 40k out of a chain on my DR650, replace the front sprocket about the 20k mark and was all good. Just a quick spray when I got home every couple of days and definitely when when it was raining, you have to lube them when they are still warm, makes a world of difference, can really tell the difference when I let the chain lubing miss for too long, chain gets very noisy and it is not smooth. I am not a scientist or a researcher but an old school rider and mechanic but still work on the theory that 2 moving parts that come into contact with each other need lubrication, swinging arm pivots and links, wheel bearings, head stem bearings, not to mention engines, and they are not exposed to out side elements, and how many people complain about the lack of grease on swinging arm pivots ?

[@DmitriyAdv]

I 100% agree with this. I've always seen a noticeable difference in how well and quietly the bike rolls before and after lubing the chain. The key to preventing a mess is to use a purpose specific lube. I think a lot of people spray on some sportbike stuff and then hit the dirt, of course it'll make a mess! There also seems to be a misconception that O-ring / X-ring chains are fully internally lubricated, which is only partially true. The rollers that go on your sprockets are not internally lubricated and while they don't move a ton, there is movement and probably enough force there that some lube could be useful. Like you said - dry on dry metal is never good. Someone earlier said they measured a noticeable difference in heat on a road bike lubed vs. un-lubed chain. I've actually seen an un-lubed chain blue from the heat generated. Could that cause a failure? I don't know, but I don't see how a hot chain is good. That said, I'm also not a chain engineer or someone who specializes in chain science. So I listen to the experts and go by what chain and motorcycle manufacturers recommend, which is to regularly lubricate your chain, with some exceptions for extreme conditions like mud. I think anecdotal evidence of chain wear on dirtbikes is a crap shoot since most modern chains are really good and will outlast how long most people will actually own a particular dirtbike, regardless of maintenance.

[@jakestewart7079]

My chains started lasting longer when I stopped using tacky chain lubes like belray chain lube. Now I use gear oil on my road bike and just wipe it down. The dirt bike gets wd40 and gear oil.

[@KLRmurdercycle]

I used belray when I started riding. A frigging joke, it just gets forced out onto the sprocket and cakes🤣

[@kcw1349]

the fortnine special 👍

[@MrDavidfuchser]

18 years of riding here. On my road bikes i got 20,000 before the first signs of kinking lubing the chain every oil change or so (3000 miles). This past year I tried an experiment on my ninja 400 by not lubing it ever. It lasted 12000 miles until the rollers were so worn that the chain made a really bad harmonic type vibration at certain speeds. Had no kinking though so the internal lube was still doing its job.I also noticed a drop of 8 MPG during the last third of that chains life that was restored once the chain was replaced.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Thanks for info, David. It seems lube alternatives such as kerosene or WD40 leave enough oily residue to keep the rollers lubricated, at least for dirt and adventure riding. but as per the vid, I suspect for 100% road riding or extended highway mileage that a lube will be beneficial.

[@radoslavtomov9121]

I clean and lube my chain on the road bike every 3-4 tanks of fuel and the chain and sprockets look as new even after 20k km. 520 chain on 78 hp bike. I personally think we should not focus that much on the topic, keep it clean and put some light stuff to prevent surface rust and it will be ok.

[@CamperKev]

I'm with you. I stopped oiling my O-ring chain on a Husqvarna TE510 and it lasted just as long. I only give it an oily wipe, to protect from surface rust, after a ride. WD40 and maybe similar sprays, contaminates brake pads, so I treat those kind of sprays with great respect if oiling a chain.

[@carlpenney901]

You could use chain saw chain oil it sticks really good and is great for rust protection on the undercarriage for your trucks and is cheap. Cheers

[@ohiodirtbikeriders2218]

I use to use the sticky chain lube but got tired of the gunk that would build up. I switched to WD-40 but noticed my chain would rust. The bike would sweat due to the storage conditions. So I tried motor oil but that was a mess. Finally I tested out some chain wax and it works great. It leaves such a thin coating that semi-hardens. Dirt doesn't stick to it and my chain stopped rusting in storage.

[@bujtar87]

Use heavy duty gearbox oil not motor oil

[@TrustyZ900]

On my last DL 650, I started out using Motul Road C2. This stuff was like hot gooey black tar after a ride. Used it for about 2k miles. Extremely black and sticky. Then I watched some obscure YT channel in Indonesia and he switched from C2 to Off Road C3. This stuff was for dirtbikes and was a sort of fluorescent clear green color. It didn't really fling off and was really easy to remove when wiping down links. The Chain and sprockets lasted over 28k miles. Doubt it would have if i ran it dry.

[@videosbruno]

I've seen chains lasting four a crazy amount of miles with scottoiler or similar, so lubrication is definitely good. However I think just spraying doesn't do much. Since scottoiler is impractical on dirt bikes I try to keep the chain clean and lube it after washing to prevent rust.

[@theravedaddy]

I run a scottoiler on my MT09. Its done 23k on stock chain n sprockets but as i havnt riden it for 2 years the links are starting to get notchy. A good blast might free them up or just spend 60 quid on local JT replacements.

[@spotthedogg]

Those devices disgust me!

[@theravedaddy]

@@spotthedogg how do you feel about battery powered toothbrushes?

[@spotthedogg]

@@theravedaddy they’re alright, but a device that constantly splooted toothpaste in my mouth to have fresh breath would be disgusting 😂

[@theravedaddy]

@@spotthedogg toothpaste doesnt work that well on chains tho, it might aid cleaning the goop off the rear wheel tho...i might try it.

[@Robbie6298]

No randomized controlled study. But on my street bikes I find that the chain runs cooler per infrared thermometer when there's lube on it. This was after about an hour on the freeway averaging around 80 to 90 mph. I have also experimented with running a dry chain and I found that the rollers burnish themselves to a mirror shine. All the rollers still rotate freely and my chain is fine but I think there's definitely increased friction at least in high speed applications. Given this information I still use WD-40 to clean my chain. But, I throw on a thin layer of dry lubricant on the rollers only I do not actively lubricate the side links.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Thanks for the info, Rob. Yes I was very hesitant to say chain lube was not needed on road bikes and especially for long periods of highway use. And when I began my 'non-lube' phase I did lube the chain for a few big road rides interstate on the adventure bike. The inner geek would love to see some studies done... 😎

[@Wintersdark]

External lubrication isn't terribly important, but most lubricants also function to repel water and protect. Thus it really doesn't matter what you use, and if you're in a dry environment maybe even nothing is fine. As a Canadian, however, I'm just never going to have a dry environment. If I'm not running an auto oiler, I use heavy gear oil as it tends to stick. It will for sure gather dirt - everything will - but external dirt worrys me less than rust. After a dirt ride it gets wiped down with diesel then re-oiled. I'm a huge fan of auto oilers for this, though. With a thinner oil, they actively keep your chain clean by grabbing dust and dirt and flinging it off, while the coating of oil repels water. No rust, no dirt, happy chain. Definitely don't remove your chain guard, though, and accept that your rear rim will never be clean again .

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Sounds like good advice, Derrick. It rains so rarely here it's easy for me to forget that plenty of riders are in far wetter climates. I've done lots of dirt riding in Canada in recent years but really looking forward to some adventure riding around BC next year.

[@motopacking]

I've been telling this to folks for years. Modern x-ring chains last an extremely long time as long as they are kept clean and rust free. I use a silicon spray "lube" that is dry to the touch once cured. It stops rust from forming and aids in keeping the chain from packing up with dust and mud.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Nothing like a bit of myth busting! For years I used chain lube... the chains accumulated all this gunk as dirt and dust stuck to the chain, lube flinging off on the rear wheel. I think it was around 15 years ago I first heard chain lube wasn't needed and chain maintenance is so much easier now.

[@exploder69]

Thanks for this. The idea of an anti-dirt-sticking coating makes excellent sense if it works, and some kind of "dry" silicone sounds like the right candidate for that function.

[@berniebne8243]

I do the same on my bicycle.

[@timjohnson1199]

I like that. Think I'm gonna use a dry lube.

[@bobbellendovich6825]

I use bar chain oil for chainsaws, basically 80/90 gear oil with wax, and use dish soap/water to clean when dirty. I'll let it soak a few minutes while rotating the chain wipe it off with a cloth. Keeps the rust away, seems to work ok.

[@ThePhotofred]

When I started riding dirt bikes back in the late 70's I never used anything on a chain except WD40. I lived by that theory until a couple of years ago when I decided to try some actual chain lubes. Needless to say that after a little over a year of using those I went back to WD 40.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Yep, cleaning all that black oil off the rear wheel and spokes convinced me fast...

[@Bryan-Hensley]

Try dollar general spray lube. My chains last much longer than anything I've tried. I used to use WD 40 but I was being cheap when I tried DG lube. Unexpected results

[@RideYourRide39]

Agreed - I just keep the chain clean and use a thin coat of gear oil to prevent rust. Cheap and easy and just as effective.

[@pilotdane1]

Perfect video / timing. Just installed new chain & front sprocket. (rear sprocket is fine). I like cleaning it with

[@robbo6799]

Re-cycled Kero that was used for air filter clean is my chain cleaner, followed by a wax spray on sides of chain. When I run out of spray, gear oil for rust protection.

[@antalgyori6744]

I am a proponent for lubricating motorcycle drive chains. My riding situation is very different than what has been described in this video. I commute between home and work everyday. A round trip consists of 180 km (95% highway riding at 100 kmph and the other 5% at 50 kmph in the city), rain or shine, with temperatures ranging from 1deg C to 35 deg C. By the end of the week (i.e, 900 km) the chain is very stiff and dry. Using my hand to spin the rear wheel, I can feel the friction in the chain, the wheel does spin freely. I wash the chain with some brushes and kerosene, dry the chain with some rags and then lubricate it with Maxima Chain Wax. Again, using my hand to spin the rear wheel, the wheel spins freely. Chain life is dependent on a number of factors. I ride in a manner to minimize stressing the chain in the hope of extending the chain's useful life. I add lube to the chain immediately after every downpour. I have 203,000 km on my motorcycle and the chains have lasted somewhere between 25,000 km and 30,000 km. I once ran a chain to 33,000 km, but it was in very poor condition when it finally was changed. I've been riding chain driven motorcycles for 45 years and have experimented with various lubes and methods of cleaning chains. Some chain lubes suck and make a mess of your bike. I'm not a fan of gear oil. I'm very satisfied with Maxima Chain Wax. There may be other lubes that work just as well or better, but I'm sticking with Chain Wax. 🏍

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Thanks for that info, Antal. As mentioned in the vid, I suspect lube is probably a good idea for road riding (or extended highway mileage), you experience supports that.

[@-CHeWy-]

I use maxima chain wax on my road bike. It repels water amazingly. It also made the gear shifts softer, and you could tell when it was wearing off.

[@rojodogg]

I totally agree. Been using WD-40 and chain last just as long while riding only Baja. Sand sticks to lube and destroys the chain faster. KLR 650, CRF450R

[@rushiiiop]

i've using gear oil 80w/90 with my mt07 since i bought it new, 30.000km a bunch of failed wheelies, some dirt and 3 winters with a lot of rain and the chain looks and feels like new, no rust spots, no froozen links and no stretch at all. that gear oil bottle been through 2 bikes and there is still half in it, im using the same for my 990 now.

[@huskypoop4917]

its been mentioned to me before about usin gear oil theirs a lot use it wot you just said converted me ;]

[@huskypoop4917]

@Matt Elliott give it a clean with WD40 1st

[@rushiiiop]

@WolfieMel the first ride, yes

[@TheDacane]

I use dupont chain saver for the same general reason. Its basically just a coating to keep the chain from rusting, and keep dust and sand from sticking. Its also generally quite cheap.

[@robertos4172]

I hate the mess and fuss of oiling a chain to the extent that I quit doing it a long time ago, resolved to just consider it a consumable, and the biggest determinant of chain life I have found is smooth power application, for me they stretch first, possibly rust when in the wet, but for dry/street, no difference lubed or not.

[@z.f.6163]

Another great topic and video. I'm switching away from a chain wax because I'm regularly hosing the bikes off due to mud and road salt (live in an area with serious winter) and the biggest battle is keeping rust away. I have had great luck using a dedicated chain wax, Dupont's chain wax with teflon, on non-motorcycle chains (farm implements, etc.) and when dry summer riding entirely on pavement. Away from mud and salt, it holds up for a long time and prevents rust very effectively. It is the absolute best product I've found for 3-point implement pins (farm tractor implements), where it totally prevents rust even on stuff left outside in the rain. But on a motorcycle ridden on dirt roads, it accumulates some dirt, then you have to wash it, and it's not immune to being washed off when the whole bike is washed. The WD40 brand is now offering, at least in the US, various other spray products with the same brand name. They have a "gel lube" that only costs a little more than regular WD40 and claims to be a durable and great lube. That's what I'm trying next. If I'm not impressed I'll probably switch to the regular WD40 and not caring.

[@greatscot9597]

Years ago I heard that they don't lube the chains on oil pump jacks in Texas oilfields because the sand sticks to them and they wear out faster, so they just run them dry. I do what the Suzuki FSM says and clean with kerosene and lube with 80/90 gear oil, sparingly.

[@russianrick8403]

I upgraded to a lubricated shaft drive last year, but I just kept enough of a film of gear oil on my chain to prevent it from rusting before that.

[@T.S.-eo7my]

Daily M/C commuter here. Find it odd that folks will blow upwards of $500 for a loud exhaust can in search of 1-2hp, but discount the same gains by simply switching to a non-oring chain that requires a little extra maintenance. On a 400cc or smaller, difference can easily be felt at the seat and calculated in extra MPG at the pump. Use EP80/90W. Yeah…it smells funky, flings,and turns black quickly. But an ERT3 lasts ridiculously long when using the stuff.

[@emfl4437]

This makes sense, I have a chain oiler which is good at keeping the chain clean. I'll clean the chain every 5K miles now, where before the chain oiler it was 1-2k because there was debris that needed to be removed.

[@Matt43]

Any chain lube I've used on dirt bikes and adventure bikes that are "designed" not to collect dirt are slung off or built up on the sprockets within an hour of riding... so I am basically running a dry chain at that point (noise would indicate as much too). I also don't use heavy degreasers, usually just soap and water from the hose... I don't pressure wash any area of my bikes, just a garden hose and elbow grease.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

My brother and I do pressure wash our bikes but whenever we go near the chain, wheel bearings etc we keep the nozzle well away from the bike so the pressure is only about the same as a garden hose... I always cringe when I see guys getting the nozzle right against the chain and wonder how much water they are pushing past the o-rings. Maybe not on a new chain? But once there's a bit of wear I'm sure water will start getting in. 🤔

[@chaosa.d.7437]

I keep my chains fairly dry . On a brand new chain I take a rag and wipe the excess lithium grease they pack it in off and go ride. I usually get some grease fling from that first ride. After the ride I wash the bike and use a wax and grease remover use in auto body prep put it on a rag but don’t soak it crazy and run that along the chain, it take a bit more lithium grease off they pack the new chains in off. Sometimes I leave it dry but if I worried about rust I’ll will take some new lithium grease run it along the chain with my hand with a latex glove then come back with rag and wipe the excess off leaving it fairly on the dry side. O-ring chains are a waste off money just get the regular ones more frequently. The O-rings start coming off early on the O-ring chains anyway.

[@allenhuling598]

Always a great topic! The more I ride, the more I realize that CLEAN is the main thing, to lube or not is a personal choice, and I still use some lube as this is a pretty wet and corrosive environment for a chain to live!

[@calebnels2999]

Good points. I think it feels a bit smoother after a good chain lube, but I don’t know how long it lasts. And it’s also nice to hear that something a 1/4 of the price (wd40) works the same.

[@martin72345]

I used to use the castrol lube on my street bike with great success, even if it was mostly for rust prevention. I have since moved to ADV and besides that the Castrol has become expensive. I now use a mix of kerosene and cutterbar fluid applied after every ride. its tends to fling off all the dirt and not leave much nasty stuff behind (maybe a bad plan on more exposed chains). Which ever product or combination I have ever used, and always when buying a new second hand bike there has been an almost solid clump at the front sprocket where the stuff came off and sat in the cover. I am now going to start kerosene wash and call it a day. All I've been after has been reliable corrosion prevention without many downsides.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Hopefully the keronene will do the trick, Martin.

[@stmboat]

Up on the stand, 1st gear click(dangerous, do at your own ultimate peril), simple green to rough the crud, then grunge buster with brush, then wipe clean with rags, repeat. Finish with grunge buster formula. Water will/can swap places (during your next ride) with this penetrating water displacement in the crevices of the chain components, which is why you have to clean that stanky chain or itll go kink. Finished clean job? Dryish can be ok if you have purged water. Then I get all the overspray off the tires/bike with more green - all after the bike is totally washed. Kero works great - it stinks is all and is slippery on your skin. Chain lube is messy and often tacky. Why would I want dust stuck to my orings? I'm sure the film strength is great in the short time that the lube still populates the high-pressure contact areas. Chain lube is just a product that companies develop as an appearance merch item. They sincerely want to give you a product they believe in, its just too bad that light solvents ( grunge buster formula/wd40) work better over all for the money.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Yep. I reckon those are the two main keys... displace that water. And leave a bit of an oily residue to stop rust and probably provide a bit of lube for the rollers. And things like kero and WD40 do this. 👍

[@stmboat]

@@crosstrainingadventure We are spoiled, Bar... I just checked the price of an economy round trip flight from Rochester, NY to Sydney. I reckon I've got $5k US lying around somewhere.🙄😅

[@neilw]

Great question. I always understood the o rings need treatment to keep them supple so I cleaned my chains with cleaner and a brush and applied new treatment. I knew it wasn't lubing the rollers, just treating the seals. The treatment products are not greasy so there is no accumulation of dirt, never a concern. I haven't run any empirical tests because it was never a question. It doesn't cost much for the cleaning and treatment products but I always worried about letting it go too long. Maybe it is not an issue at all. One less maintenance worry? Are the chain mfr's getting a cut from the maintenance product vendors? Why do they recommend it?

[@crosstrainingadventure]

This is a really good point, Neil. Some chain lube manufacturers claim their lubes will prolong o-ring life but I hunted around and couldn't find any evidence for 'treatments' that do extend the lifespan. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring#Failure_modes

[@SANDS78]

My view is, I don't see wear as an issue for the trail riding I do, but when the chain is lubed it spins better, easier. For me this is the key, not wear. I use Lucas 85W-140 Gear Oil. It's $4 a quart. Lasts forever. I also like to to clean and lube the chain after washes.

[@raddestraven]

I tried gear oil, chain and sprockets lasted the longest when I brushed it on evenly with an old tooth brush before a ride then it is self cleaning . It flings off the grime from the last few rides, makes a little mess on the bottom of the exhaust and around front sprocket.

[@pollepost]

The Honda Xr manual (1993) says, clean with kerosene, lube with oil 80W90 or engine oil. I use motorcycle cleaner (muc off) all over and rinse with garden hose flower spray, at low pressure. I lube the chain with chainsaw bar oil and a toothbrush, it clings to the chain, keeps it free of rust, is biodegradable, and cost a fraction of real chain-lube.

[@stephenlean7539]

I too don't use chain lube for my triumph street triple. Instead I use gear box oil. Yes it does leave a bit of oil stains on the wheels and for my case the exhaust catelizer. Just have to wipe it off after a few km and its fine. The downside of using gearbox oil for me is you need to lube the chain after 500 km. If you're riding in the rain you need to lube them as soon as possible. The positive side is it doesn't collect dust and basically no cleaning is required.

[@zrig1]

Clean with a little bit of diesel fuel. Removes all sorts of grime and leaves a light coating to stop the rust. Lube is a waste of cash on sealed chains.

[@MidCoastAdventures]

well, after watching Ryan at Fortnine do his extensive chain test, and now hearing you mention similar stuff, it seems all that's needed is remove the grit (dirt, dust etc) and spray / coat the chain to prevent rust. WD40 after each ride, a smear with gearbox oil when the mood takes, seems all that's needed on O and X ring chains.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

It's mostly anecdotal evidence, but there's so much of it I'm pretty sure this is true... at least for dirt and adv riders. I suspect it might be different for lots of road miles and continual high speed perhaps?

[@motoendurocalaveras429]

And the benefit of a cleaner looking bike by avoiding that excess of oil spilled by the chain

[@gasdive]

No science, but on my road bike I run a chain oiler (Scottoiler and a home made one gave identical results). I'm up to 40 000 km now on the original V-Strom 650 chain. About 10% gravel roads, 1% fire trail and the rest tar road with the usual country roadworks. It's been adjusted once, at about 35000 km, but it didn't really *need* it. Both front and rear sprockets show zero signs of wear. I fill the chain oilers with olive oil. It has an extremely high "oiliness" which is the property of spreading out on metal surfaces, and is added to some special oils for this property. So it coats the chain very well. It's also not sticky, so any dirt is washed off as the fresh oil is applied, keeping the chain clean. After riding a few hundred km on dusty roads, the bike is filthy, but the chain (particularly the orings) is clean. The only down side is that during the mouse plague the mice chewed through the oil line and drank all the oil. So the underseat area filled up with oily mouse shit.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Mice! I wonder if they had an Italian heritage? 🤔

[@davidfalgout7304]

@@crosstrainingadventure he is a devoted Italian! I hope he also rides Ducati's! 🤣

[@budycelyn]

i ride mountain bikes and we get the same things there, our chains dont have seals so do need lubrication but i've been using a generic multi purpose oil "3 in 1" for example for 7 years, one of my bikes still has the chain and sprockets i fitted 3 years ago and though its reached its stretch limit it is still fine.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Good to hear, Jowen. I figure the take-home message (at least for me) is don't bother with expensive lubes that promise the world but don't back it up with any hard research. It seems that for dirt and adventure riding a good quality x-ring chain is going to last a long time as long as we stop it rusting. 😁

[@KLRmurdercycle]

20k km is roughly around my chain life as well. That's trail use every weekend, commuting during the week. It gets lubed every 2 weeks. Or right after the ride if it's raining or mucky.

[@djones6543]

I have an RE Int 650, dry conditions, street only riding. Once a week, I wipe down the chain with WD 40 until it's nice and shiny. Then apply WD 40 on a cloth and apply it to the chain making sure to get a light film on the rollers. I focus on keeping the chain clean and rust free. Lubricants will fling off at highway speed and will leave a mess. WD 40 will fling off too, but is less messy and frequent application assures a clean and rust free chain.

[@jaynelson5793]

I use a paint brush and a drop of Dawn detergent to clean the chain and a low pressure rinse. Silicone spray to displace water, keep rust away and try and keep the o-rings supple as long as possible. Then wipe off as much excess as I can from the chain and sprocket with a terry cloth rag. Doesn't seem to attract dust if you wipe it down good. Buddy uses a pressure washer, chain brush and a "dirt bike" chain lube. His chain always seems to kinked and covered in brown goo.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Ugh. Yeah pressure washing simply isn't a good idea. We do presssure wash our bikes actually, but I always unsure the nozzle is well back when doing the chain, wheel bearings, and around the engine, so it's only about the force of a normal hose then. You defintely don't want to be forcing water past those seals!

[@veetwotls]

Live in Murray Mallee so always in dirt /dust KTM 1290SE custom made , 2 x 950SE's , KIT690RFR , 640ADV , 2 x YZ465H's , XR630RN Only use chain lube after washed the bike , never before/during a ride

[@ryunruly1227]

I'm same as you...I clean the chain with low pressure water, a rag or chain brush, rinse, then apply WD-40, then wipe off excess with a rag. Been working for me, I'm getting same intervals on my chain as you.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

I must admit I swung over to this about 15 years ago out of laziness and just hoped it would work... I'm glad it has. 😁

[@nicolaf970]

I use wd40 to clean and a Nemo2 semi automatic oiler with gear oil on my Royal Enfield Scram411. I’m happy to keep my chain rust free and the chain roller and sprocket surface lubed up a o ring x ring chains are greased at manufacturing and don’t need lubricant.

[@rustymustard7798]

In the desert there's no rust, chains just wear out from heat and dust and break before they ever get a chance to kink. Those O-rings just get ground down to more dust and leave the chain links all loose and floppy with them all gone. I've tried all sorts of O and X ring chains. I'm sticking with cheap standard chains from now on. Mo' -Money- O-rings, Mo' problems.

[@STho205]

Many such products once did a service, but modern machines don't need thrm anymore. Car, Bike, Truck... Belt dressing STP Seafoam (2 strokes) Chain oil and wax Oil changes every 3000 mi ... I just spray the street chain with dilluted soap snd hose off.

[@jeffestrada6857]

On my road bike i use lube. I agree that with the idea that O-ring chains are manufactured with lube inside which is sealed, however even high quality road bike chains ( like on my Suzuki Hayabusa) still in my opinion require lube. Its obvious after applying lubricant to the chain that the whole drive train moves freely. During my process of lubing i spin my rear wheel (its on a paddock stand) the difference before and after is obvious, being its much easier to spin. It also sounds smoother and quieter adding to the idea the lubricant is working. You have to remember even though the chain is sealed the rollers and sideplates after riding dry out, of course friction increases over time. The sound alone that we all know (of metal rubbing against each other and the squealing of metal & friction) is very evident over time. In saying the above, i dont lubricate as much as i did in past years. At one time not so long ago i lubed every 500 kms or so, nowadays it may be three times that mileage before i do it. Part of it i think is use of high quality Motul lube designed not to fling off too easy. I am very anal with my chains, after riding and when the chain is warm, i lube & allow around ten or fifteen minutes for the lube to penetrate, then very carefully i use kerosine next to wipe all the excess lube to leave afterwards what appears to be a new looking chain, and then go one step further and dry the chain of any excess kero or chain lube running it through clean rags. This process may take me 15 to 20 mins) What i end up with is a clean chain thats dry to look at, that i hardly ever have to adjust the slack or maintain. In fact i had a motorcycle mechanic one day say to me i needed to lube my chain! He didnt realise that it was just lubed the ride before! He obviously is so accustomed to seeing the black/white lube residue all over the place on sprockets/chain teeth (which in his eyes meant lubrication was evident!) I have over the years sworn by this method ( and smooth riding techniques) to maximise chain life. I can go for up to 10,000 kms + before i need to adjust chain back to specs. I have had three Hayabusa’s with lots of kms on all them. Its not unusual to get 45,000kms + from my std RK chains. The way i look at is this... what you put in pays off long term. Somehow ( and it may be irrelevant) i feel better mentally after looking after my chain and the bike appears to go faster!! Haha..... As for dirt riding i havent got the experience that you have but i dare say if you used my technique i am certain the life of your chain would be extended as being dry it wouldn’t attract the dirt/paste you mention to create the friction and wear??? I understand that the inside sealed section of chains are the most critical part but lubing the outside woukd have to benefit longevity of not only the chain but sprockets also. Anyway i know my experience is on road, but wanted to let you know just the same. Cheers and thanks for the videos mate 👍

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Thanks for the detailed response, Jeff! I agree it stands to reason that lube would help with 100% road riding, I would love to see some kind of test done to confirm it for sure... and to what extent it makes a difference.

[@jeffestrada6857]

Your welcome happy to contribute. There are very few youtube presentations that i would recommend as most of the content online is just crap, however there happens to be one i like that seems to have very good information and effort in being unbiased in its content. It just so happens in last few days (“Bennetts Bikes” ) evaluated many different chain lubes and compared them. Now even though this presentation is regarding road bike chains, i am sure you will be impressed how comprehensive the testing is. Check it out! Jeff kzbin.info/www/bejne/pKDWmZ2Daqh3l9U

[@grant31781]

I use canola cooking spray. It's a semi drying oil so it leaves a wax like residue to prevent rusting.

[@fatchance4465]

Wash and WD40 for the past 10 years, never had the sprockets out last a X or O ring chain. I’ve always replaced sprockets and chain at the same time, usually getting about 80 to 100 hours out of a set.

[@benlondon8467]

I agree. Constantly externally lubricating O-ring chains is a wast of time, because you are not getting the lube into the roller pins etc due to the O-rings. Tiny bit of TLC & external lube here and there for small gains in sprocket life & noise. I don’t use O-ring chains on dirt bikes.triple the cost don’t last any long than non O-ring if the non O-ring chain is serviced regularly.( down side service time wasting ). I service dirt bike chains as regular as air filter service ( every ride almost- not small rides to the shops 🥴). Putoline Wax 1kg Tin is what I use to lube NON O-Ring chains, “Clean” Chains submerged in hot lube 120”C for 10 minutes then left hanging to cool. These chains ,done this way last well beyond an O-ring chain life. O-ring chains in dirt/mud/muddy water holes etc etc, get hammered with filthy water into the pin/rollers, it gets pasts O-rings , especially older O-rings. The chain is also squeezing all the lube out past the O-rings, you end up with just a muddy paste inside the link pins, then the chain gets kinks bit by bit, external spray lube won’t get back into link pins on an O-ring chain & not much better on NON O-ring. My Dad used to soak my mini bike chains in Sump oil regularly for an hr or 2 back in the day, not as good as Wax lube for staying in chain pins but also affective .

[@ecalzo]

On road naked bike and adv bike like V-strom 650 xt i use a good amount of wd40 as a cleaner for the debries.. then i wipe it from the chain with rags and i apply a thin coat of chain lube sprayed from the inside of the chain towards the ground ..

[@adammoore7994]

Bit of gear oil every now and then, can't go wrong. Maybe theres something to being able to reduce dry rot of the rings on a chain?

[@michaelscott1060]

Great work, have been cleaning my roadbike chains for years with WD and have often thought about using it a lube to. I’ll give it ago for 12 months and give feedback. Cheers.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

It would be good to hear how you go, Michael. As mentioned in the vid, I do wonder if the story changes with road riding, especially lots of highway miles... higher temperatures? Rollers getting more wear?

[@dewimtbmoto]

Still use chain lube when going for blacktop rides, silicone spray other times. Why? I find the lube makes the rollers run quieter for a couple of hundred kms. But I spray it on, and then wipe off any excess as I agree, it attracts dirt.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Sounds like a good idea. As mentioned in the vid, I suspect lube is probably a good idea for purely road riding and/or big highway mileage. Logic would suggest that if your chain is making noise it's rubbing on things and generating friction...

[@majorawol]

I had new chain and sprockets put on my DR650 with a SUMO-ish set-up (19" front) and I didn't even know about the recommended importance of chain maintenance. Within 2 years (about 10 000km) my chain and sprockets were finished. I was shocked. But indeed, I did ZERO maintenance, did some off roading, but mostly all city and highway. Anyway... that kinda bummed me out, so now I lube or wax it every 500km or so... and try and clean it with kerosine or WD40... seems to have doubled my chain life since now I'm at 4 years and still looking good.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

That sounds about right. With a bit of WD40 or similar spray on the DR650 I expect about 20,000km before the chain starts to kink and the sprockets are wearing.

[@ronanrogers4127]

I generally run my x chain dry. I occasionally use a 1/2” brush to apply some kerosene and keep the chain clean. Prior to a ride of 3hrs or more I sometimes put 5-6 drops of 90 weight gear oil on the rear sprocket and spin the wheel a few revolutions. As long as the chain is clean, I see minimal wear. I’ve gotten over 80,000km on a KTM 1190 chain doing this, and long mileage on my DRZ400

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Damn, 80000km is impressive Ronan!

[@TheEdge549]

I maintain my chains the same way you do. I get great life out of my chains. Some times I forget to WD-40 after a wash and get some surface rust which doesn't seem to cause much issue but this only happens maybe 5 washes out of a chain life.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Same here, I forget occasionally and get a bit of surface rust. But I suspect you need a lot of rust happening before it will start to degrad the o-rings.

[@JDRELGOR]

I use WD40 silicone spray as it's a bit thicker than normal WD40 before a ride and after washing, chain & sprockets are now 2years old still looking good, as long as the tension is correct to prevent wear. I stopped using all these expensive chain lubes 7 years ago.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

I was using silicon spray too for a few years, there was a cheap generic version in our automotive stores. Then they came out with the generic version of WD40 (shown in the vid) which was even cheaper. 😁

[@JDRELGOR]

@@crosstrainingadventure today I found a silicon spray called 3 in 1 ( not sure if you have it in Australia? ) much cheaper than WD just as good👍 keep up the good work with the vids.

[@keithralfs5190]

I used a Scottoiler on my ZRX1100 I changed the OEM chain and sprockets at 124,000klms, I use auto oilers on all my bikes, including adventure, keeps the chain cleaner as well - far superior to spray-on chain lubes

[@crosstrainingadventure]

That's good mileage, Keith!

[@keithralfs5190]

i've used chain oilers on ALL my chain driven bikes (over 20+ years) , I find it actually keeps the chain clean - Husky, Himalian, XR400 etc

[@spotthedogg]

I lube my chain after degreasing to lube and condition the X-rings, I also wipe it down well before it dries or thickens.

[@jmc6659]

A guy at my local bike shop recommended Motul chain lube it really seams to make my chains last longer my old xr chain is 10+ years old and my Africa twin chain has 15000 miles on it and still looks like new and it never seems to stretch or need adjusting so I’ll continue to use Motul lube.

[@arirapoport4509]

Hi, I did this experiment with my MTB,I I read an article in a MTM magazine that a lab did long test with chains and found out that the ware was the same with Lub and no Lub, so stoped lubricating my chain in my mountain bike, and I started having problems changing gears, so I found out is not about the ware is about the good function in general of the drivetrain ... At list that was my conclusion... I'll try to find the study and up load it

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Interesting, Ari. So that would not be a sealed chain... I have seen a study that said lube made up to a 10% improvement on non-o ring chains.

[@DirtByk]

Same as you; wd40 after cleaning it with water. Then I spin dry and use a paper towel/rag in the finger remover area. No lube for years now.

[@cobrin6437]

MotorX 'oil from Sweden', I'm a sucker and lube the rollers roughly 1000kms or after a long run in the rain/wet. Recently bought a $30 can to refill the tiny can that you'd take with you on a ride marketing got me. I also stuffed up and used simple green to clean the chain, and it had surface rust the next day. I don't know the history of the chain but I've had the bike for 19K kms so far. Don't mind replacing it when it's time and do better the next time around.

[@TheMazol]

Well done on the video, I've been ridding my DRZ400 off road for 2 and a half years and half of that time I've used gearbox oil and it did the job just as well as the high priced chain lubricants.

[@MyRandomLife247]

For dirt bikes I kinda have to agree with you. My theory is, depending on which one you get they can capture the dirt and fall off. I just know my old road bike had over 20,000km with the chain after wheelies and track riding and all I did was clean it and lube it regularly. Lube is always good ;)

[@KTMsteve]

a silicone brush with used motorcycle engine oil. motorex is still quite thick even after its reached its service interval

[@hazcat640]

I clean the chain and sprocket as needed and then wipe them down with a rag coated with gear oil. Use the same rag every time and often don't put more oil on the rag. Just a light coat on the chain and sprocket, same way you oil guns.

[@EricBanner571]

A chain that spins effortlessly is free horsepower and on a low powered bike, that is your best bang for your bike. Keeping a chain clean and rust free is all that is needed. Wd40 / Silicon spray, anything that will keep the O rings from drying out without attracting dust..

[@alelectric2767]

I never thought of lubing a chain to extend it’s life. More about smooth chain slide and less chain chatter. That being said I use about 6-8 tabs of motor oil and coated with chain wax. When the wax dries it seems to seal the oil so you don’t get oil sling. It may seem odd to others but when I told someone I was doing this they started and so on. 🤷‍♂️

[@redtobertshateshandles]

I'd NEVER pressure wash anything of mine. Great way to force dirty water in and lubricant out. Your stuff?? Yep, it's quick.

[@v1nando]

I add dry lube after washing down the bike, clean the chain with a dry cloth, add the dry lube, then another wipe down with the dry cloth…it works great in stopping the rust and spreading excess lube all over the bike..more expensive but after many years of trying out different products, this was the best for me👍

[@thebundybear77]

I was a chain lube tragic till you look at all the sand stuck to your chain. Now I have moved to CRC Power Lube with PTFE or WD-40 if its a shorter walk to the tin.

[@BartoszBanachewicz]

Whenever I get asked this, my first reaction is always - listen to the unlubed chain, then lube it and hear the difference. This is very unscientific, but I think it rather obviously demonstrates how much more wear is caused by the noisy chain with metal-to-metal contact between the rollers and the sprockets.

[@peterbarakan9006]

what does it sound like after its packed with dust from 5 minutes off road use ?

[@owenregan1]

Hi, its good that there is knowledgeable people like you in the community! I stumbled onto this video after watching a tent review. I will stop pressure wash chain from now. I've always been a cheap skate when it come to chain lubes! Great information thx :-)

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Cheers Owen, always good to know a vid has been useful.

[@simonp650]

I did the experiment, for my own amusement only, a few years ago on my 500 single. Brand new X ring chain, only used Inox MX3 (another WD40 thing). In 20,000km I never needed to adjust the chain. Then I got bored with the experiment and put a chain oiler on and have done another 20k without adjusting it. A quick wipe with a rag occasionally is all it gets. Stlll seems like new. Partner's bike, using chain lube spray, lasted 16,000km. FWIW.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Interesting... none of us are running truly scientific experiments, Simon. But so many of us report no difference using lubes against no lube that at least it very strongly suggests it makes no difference in most cases. I still wonder if it DOES help for road riding and extended highway mileage though.

[@gregorbabic7664]

Jar of gear oil and a brush. The brushing of the oil on breaks up dirt and lubricants at the same time. Wipe clean with a rag and this is a quick and almost free method of maintaining the chain.

[@upsidedowndog1256]

At the dragstrip I made 3 consecutive passes within a tenth of a second. I applied chain wax to the o-ring chain and the next 3 passes were also within a tenth of each other, but ALL of those were a tenth faster than the first 3.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

I vaguely remember a research paper that looked at chain lube and high speed... also sprocket size. In the interests of science, it would be interesting to follow up with your first runs on the lubed chain, THEN do your dry chain runs. Just in case your later runs are improving as you get into the groove.

[@upsidedowndog1256]

@@crosstrainingadventure I get what you are saying but I had probably 25+ runs that day before my "experiment". I typically get in my groove after 5-10 passes, times usually within a few thousanths. Reaction times and 60 feet both reflected the consistancy too.

[@bobes919]

I use gear/engine oil in a old oil can with a rag to wipe off excess, straight after a wash and hasn't let me down for years and looks brand new.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Cheap and it works. 👍 I get very annoyed when I see some expensive chain lubes making miraculous claims...

[@billhamilton2366]

I run my chain dry but use a universal lubricant to displace water after washing.

[@hiltonmcconnell2563]

Think it depends on the chain I have always lubed but do put a lot of highway mines on as well as dirt. The chain on my Versys 300 x got very uneven fast, to the point of at one spot being to tight and another way to loose, never seen this in a chain before. some uneven but never this bad, on my DR650 a couple of O rings were coming out but the chain seems to be lasting Ok but only 6000 Km on it, my KTM 390 Adventure is doing fine so far but again only 5,500 Km bough these bikes I got this year traded the Versys in on the KTM 390 and very glad I did much better all round and way better on the highway. I do like to keep my changes clean and lightly lubed, I have ridden with others who do not lube there chains and they do not last near as long as mine, One girl had hers break and go through the casing, but that was a road bike, She did not know you should clean and lube your chain and it was in pretty bad shape. When they first came out with O ring chains I found I would get the ineatical stretch then tighten it up and when it started to stretch some more I was time to change it , that way the sprockets were still good. and would get great mileage out of the chain and sprockets I would think that if you did not lube your chain that the sprockets would ware out quicker, as lube dose help the sprocket chain connection . I have also been told that even so my rear sprocket looked good the front one would have to be changed but when they took it apart there was no ware that could be seen, put a new chain on ad it out lasted the stock chain by quite a bit. I think the worse thing you can do is keep tighten the chain, more than on the first stretch. do it once than when needed again witch should be near the end of the chains life so change it. and the sprockets will last a lot longer.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Good points, Hilton. There certainly seems to be plenty of anecdotal evidence that some kind of lube makes sense when doing a lot of road miles. Lately I've been doing lots of short road rides so I'll just spray a bit of WD40 on which seems to provide just enough lube. But for long highway trips I reckon I'd be doing the light covering of gear oil or something similar....

[@bfrd9k]

I clean and apply a very light coat of gear oil. I do agree with the idea of using WD40 as it was intended, to displace water, so I may try it out.

[@nor_cal_trailrides9990]

I used to use PJ1 because the can said "won't fly off." What they should have said was: "will fly off and you'll never clean it off of whatever it stuck to." Modern Viton o-rings are used extensively in fuel systems, they should be fine around gasoline, kerosene, etc. I would think soaking an old chain in a penetrant oil like Marvel Mystery oil or liquid wrench might be good? It would be interesting to take an old kinked chain and cut it up to see if the metal is actually deformed or pitted or just got dried out.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Quite a few comments already about lube that 'doesn't fly off' doing the exact opposite! I would love to see a tech head get into this stuff and report back... can soaking revive a chain once the o-rings have gone? What kills the o-rings normally? Rust? Grit? Simple exposure to air?

[@dirtfreek]

Started using WD-40 only after washing my new bike and after 140 hours, it still measures within the limits of chain stretch specified by the service manual.

[@ironbarkmachineryandhire1861]

I just use chainsaw bar oil, messy but cheap. Sticks well and I think effective...

[@chasebolyard1962]

THANK YOU for posting this! I have been a minimal chain lube guy for years now. As you've found, I found it didn't help much if at all other than preventing rust for the average rider. Most chain lubes, even the all hailed chain wax, just fling off and make a mess. I've had chain lube Nazis give me crap telling me my brand new chain was toast because it was cold and the links appeared kinked. Glad to see I'm not the only one out there thinking along these lines!

[@crosstrainingadventure]

It's always interesting when the nazis kick in on any topic... engine oil, tires, chain lube, the best motorbike brand etc. They get up on the soap box and preach their opinions as fact, usually without a shred of evidence. 😂 I'm sure I've done it in the past too, but nowadays I try to maintain a healthy scepticism, look for evidence, and be prepared to admit I could be wrong.

[@davidfalgout7304]

@@crosstrainingadventure that's why we love you so!

[@user-gdxt-7399]

Mineral 90w oil for me (wipe the excess). Synthetic 75w90 gear oils are too thin to stay on the chain. All this after cleaning between the rollers with a toothbrush.

[@leeroys207]

I notice in my ktm adventure bike manual, they tall about all kinds of oils an fluid for the bike, but lubeing the chain is not mentioned anywhere. Thats enough for me to know its not required

[@leondeblaauw2082]

i will try it on my road bike starting tomorrow (r6 1999) and use wd40 to keep the rust away. will keep you updated

[@leondeblaauw2082]

x ring 525 type chain

[@crosstrainingadventure]

I'll be interested to see how you go, Leon. As mentioned in the vid, I suspect road bikes will probably benefit more from a lube due to friction of the rollers... but I wouldn't be surprised if you still got good mileage with just WD40.

[@postmortemspasm]

I use "lube" to stop my nice shiny gold chain chain from corroding, i think it also might make the chain quieter too.

[@wojohowitz5432]

I use 10w40 or any other engine oil I have on hand. Works well.

[@toyotasupra97]

Toyota ignition lube/lock deicer, excellent water displacer and we use it all the time.

[@philipraposo8324]

what if you have to ride at least an hour on the highway to get to your trails? isn't the lack of lube a problem for the rollers for highway use? i would assume friction heat will build and cause damage over time. i agree that if your primarily offroad your logic is sound. i just worry about avd / dual sports that do a fair bit of highway and alot of trail too. Here is what Rob Y. said... "My street bikes, the chain runs cooler per infrared thermometer when there's lube on it (one hour test at 80+ mph). Experimented with running a dry chain, the rollers burnish themselves to a mirror shine. All the rollers still rotate freely and my chain is fine but I think there's definitely increased friction at least in high speed applications. i think this is key for anyone of us who has to travel a bit before and after trail riding or else our rollers will wear and orings don't like heat either. I have seen many posts online whe rollers snap off the chains and i can only assume this is due to heat/ wearing of the rollers due to no lube.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

It's a good point Philip and it's why I've been careful to say I don't know how this would apply to road riding. I'd love to see some kind of practical research on this. I had already seen Rob Y's comment and put this in the pinned first comment... WHAT ABOUT ROAD BIKES? I suspect chain lube may be a good idea for long highway miles. I can't find studies to confirm this. Here is what Rob Y. said... "My street bikes, the chain runs cooler per infrared thermometer when there's lube on it (one hour test at 80+ mph). Experimented with running a dry chain, the rollers burnish themselves to a mirror shine. All the rollers still rotate freely and my chain is fine but I think there's definitely increased friction at least in high speed applications. I still use WD-40 to clean my chain. But, I throw on a thin layer of dry lubricant on the rollers..."

[@davidsenette5727]

it would be interesting to see chain companies investing more in rust preventatives on their materials. like possibly cera-coating the bearing surfaces or whatever. i've got access to a lot of industrial grade rust inhibitors at work. but...the WD-40 can comes with that nice bendy straw already built in.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

I did see something about a maintenance free chain recently, David. So possibly that technology is already out?

[@n4zou]

You still need to lubricate the O-rings and the rollers. I got 45,000 miles out of the original chain and sprockets on my 2006 Honda Shadow VLX and even then the chain had not stretched past the worn chain indicator. The front sprocket had worn out. You can't simply replace just a single sprocket as they wear in as a set of matching parts. I replaced both sprockets and chain and so I'm set for another 45,000 miles.

[@crosstrainingadventure]

Actually there's no evidence that the o-rings need lubrication, engineers all agree the internal lube is sufficient. But they agree the rollers will benefit from some type of lubrication. With the rollers, as per the vid, non-lube alternatives like kerosene or WD40 appear to leave enough oily residue to lubricate these sufficiently for dirt and adventure riding. However, I agree that road bikes (or adv riders doing lots of road mileage) may benefit from a proper lube... although we don't have much in the way of evidence to confirm or deny.