Is Critical Power Taking Over FTP? (Functional Threshold Power)

Critical Power: www.highnorth.co.uk/critical-...
RCA Head Cycling Coach Ryan Thomas recently discussed what FTP (Functional Threshold Power) actually is and how Critical Power is becoming more important in the cycling scene. This new form of measuring fitness by using critical power gives you a better understanding over your body and adaptations that are occurring. Will you be using Critical Power to gauge your next efforts?
#cycling #roadcycling #training

[@ewu2030]

one note about ftp: for non elites our ftp is not really 95% of the 20 mins max effort...but rather in the range of 85-90%. If I take it as 95% of my 20 mins max I know for a fact I can't keep that power over 1 hour, maybe 45 mins but not the whole hour. If I try on 90%ish it's more realistic, and ofc that depends on how well rested I am and how hard I trained that week. Looking at this critical power now, it's a good addition to a conservative ftp output as it allows me to pace better either in training or in a race. And if we start to recover in z2 (lactate threshold not HR) we might be closing that gap between the 5 min power and 30 mins power output. Great stuff tho, thanks for the calculator and the insights in combining the two

[@CamNicholls]

Great chat Ryan! Always learning from you.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

😆🤌 You all learned from me . Like it or not it is what it is Cam!!! Deal with it. Have nightmares about it. I don't care how you deal with it but just deal with it. I know better than you your boy up there and whoever you know. No one knows better than me. Nobody!!!!

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

Great explanation of what critical power is and when to use it. Also liked the use of the ramp test (Half Monty) vice acfull on FTP test (Full Frontal) and why you should use the ramp test.

[@discbrakefan]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed Are you ok?

[@markedwards7601]

Great info Fascinating Thanks Ryan!

[@MitchBoyer]

I've been looking forward to this video!

[@christianemeiners9224]

Very interesting stuff.

[@micrayherb]

Great video. CP is a very neat concept. We have our students run a 3 minute all-out test in our exercise physiology labs. With CP and W' you can also predict how long the athlete would last working above CP. (based on a consistent power output above CP that is)

[@richardbush3593]

Hi Cam, you recently did some testing at different durations as part of your fast at 41 project. How about putting your numbers in to the High North calculator as a demo? I've just done this taking numbers from my power curve and it's confimed what I've suspected for a long time... that my anaerobic reserve is a pretty mediocre at approx 10 kJ.

[@uncleyemen]

I've been testing my CP this season using High North's protocols, but as mentioned FTP is still king on most training platforms so it's tough to do much with CP besides understand relative strengths.

[@roadcyclingacademy6476]

Thanks for sharing on the thread. Understanding relative strengths is a great takeaway that is for sure.

[@rothaicc]

Something I always say to people is that with your workout sessions the intervals within the workout are meant to challenge you and it's OK to not hit all the prescribed intervals in a workout, if you have an all green workout chances are its too easy for you

[@YaniofWigan]

How could you get critical power metrics on a headunit?

[@iancarson8614]

put whatever number you want against ftp or cp. the question is, in order to "improve" fitness, how hard do you ride, how long and how often. its a fine line between enough and too much. find your own balance and hang your ego at the door. as time goes on i'm riding more with power, guided by RPE.

[@MrPeperoni79]

What determines the time to exhaustion@CP? Is it only the size of my carb storage since the body almost exlusively relies on carbs at a CP effort?

[@markmillett9869]

XERT have been using this method for years

[@michaeldezwart9432]

Yep, not sure why the coaches dont use it - it is very accurate.

[@user-ld1qy1mb9s]

Great video guys #Wahooligan :D

[@EJGilb]

W' is an interesting concept but it leaves a bit to be desired. If i'm starting fresh, I have a W' of around 25kj. If I've already been riding at threshold for 10 minutes however, The reality is my W' has been blunted to around 15kj, even though I've done no work above threshold. It can serve as a useful tool for calculating a power target for different length intervals, you just have to factor in your fatigue coming in. I've also used percentage of max W' as a proxy for RPE in the past which works nicely when you have lots of rest between efforts.

[@gerrysecure5874]

Yeah most people skip the 5min to impress their friends with an overestimated ftp and later are surprised that sweetspot is hard. There are no shortcuts. I recommend using 5min and 20min and feed the data into a monod scherrer calculator. The resulting CP is a very accurate proxy to your true ftp. If you are really good at endurance you can use CP60 which is a few watts higher than CP.

[@user-rv4mq3xv3p]

I use Half Monty, done one 4DP and it was more stressful mentally than physically, and it's so difficult unsupervised to really know if you are starting at the right power, hitting peak and holding on to the limits of your 5/20 mins efforts. So- 64 million dollar question do Wahoo SYSTM plan to incorporate this or stick with HM/4DP???

[@nuggunu]

guess you won't get an answer but :D but I say you get used to it :D my first 4DP was a complete mess, but as mentioned there is a learning process and you get used to it :)

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

4DP is actually based on critical power when you look at the cyclist type at the end of the test, Full Frontal. It also attempts to identify where your strengths and weaknesses are at.

[@PerryScanlon]

CP ignores the VO2 slow component. MLSS seems more useful for training.

[@6SpeedTA95]

This was great. I’ve been tracking W’ a couple years now. I’ve noticed on longer rides (long for me) of 80-100 miles it can say my W’ is full but I can be pretty tapped out by the end of a ride. Does W’ cease being accurate for longer rides? Seems great for sub 1hr rides

[@ewu2030]

i think it has more to do with how well you are at dealing with that "pain". If you look at dr Andy Galpin's work, you will understand what was said in here as well: elite athletes are way better at dealing with the pain because they know how to control it better. 100 miles ride done in z2 would not empty that glycogen but if you ride that close to z5 it very well might deplete those...but you will tap out long before reaching that point. btw, are you fueling at all during the long rides? Because if you eat gels/bananas/energy bars every 30 minutes the chances for you to tap out decrease

[@6SpeedTA95]

@@ewu2030 Yeah I'm fueling. The issue is primarily cramping on those long rides. So I've recently started taking in some salt while on the rides. We'll see how that goes.

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

WKO5 from Training Peaks uses Time to Exhaustion which is an extension of this technology. They've almost abandoned FTP as it's a static value that varies day-to-day.

[@zwtvchannel]

Kolie Moore from Empirical Cycling wrote that article on Training Peaks..

[@LucasAndino-nl5ww]

With respect to training zones. Why is it that the zones of Strava are different from the ones given by the Wahoo app? I have tried to modify the Strava zones but the app doesn’t allow it. I have written to Strava asking for an answer to this discrepancy too, but I was told Strava follows “the protocol”. Why is no one talking about the different approaches you can have in workout zones. Is there a universal protocol for this and, if there is, why does Wahoo and Strava differ? Thanks!

[@TheNotSoFakeNews]

There are different zones worked out and described in different scientific papers. They elluded to this in the video but didn't explain it, he talks about there being lots of different "thresholds". The zone 2 training, that has become popular recently is training below lactate threshold and is worked out as a % of your FTP (but everyone's % is different). I believe the training zones on Strava are purely related to Heart Rate(?) And not power. They are still useful but you need to be aware not all zone 2's are measuring the same zone. Instead of getting bogged down in different units of measurement, try to workout where your body starts building up lactate, your FTP and your vo2 max, this will ground your training and avoid being overcomplicated with the various zones

[@adityanathan]

Look at those tan on the fingers 😅 good info. Thanks for sharing.

[@TheMerckxProject]

As an anti-power meter troglodyte, it brings me great joy to see some finally acknowledge that the system isn't perfect...and frankly most of it's standardization was pulled out of thin air. But I also like the gas tank/battery/energy reserves approach mentioned towards the end.

[@TheMerckxProject]

Related, the "W*" number also reminds me of something I think we see in swimming and athletics, where competitors only swim or run hard enough to win their heats as they progress towards the finals so they have as many joules as possible in the tank for their hardest effort.

[@Aeroskiii]

Just use the power curve

[@jacksonbahm9731]

With what he said about the numbers being closer for amature atheletes sure the numbers will be closer but those smaller amounts of power mean more to an amature than a pro. 10 watts for someone with a FTP of 250 can be a big difference over an hour

[@mikewatkins422]

I found this content odd. The premise seemed to be, as initially asserted, that the CP has a basis in exercise physiology that, at a minimum, compliments the FTP metric wrt promoting and detecting training adaptations and informing the design of future structured training. Describing the method(s) for calculating CP without citing peer reviewed literature of its physiological relevance left me wondering if CP is more of a marketing-device than a science-based fitness metric.

[@glyndonwakeman7420]

The other way around. The Exercise science literature doesn't really recognise FTP, as it doesn't represent anything in particular physiologically. It does 'align' fairly closely with some of the scientific thresholds though. FTP was created by Andy Coggan as a practical tool that could be measured in a field test. As regards CP, it has been around longer than FTP and has been studied quite a bit. Try searching 'Monod critical power model' and you should find a bit. Essentially it is providing an estimate of your 'anaerobic work capacity' (W'=Work prime, not Watt prime as he says in the video), and CP is the highest workrate that is sustainable without utilising W'= max steady-state ( that is, it closely aligns to MLSS). Therefore assessing using the CP model allows you to also assess the W' in addition to CP, which is also affected by training adaptations. Hope that helps a bit.

[@terrywalker7127]

That almost sounds like the SYSTM 4DP test.

[@jamesmckenzie3532]

The typical 20 minute FTP steady state test includes the 5 minutes at MAP portion these days.

[@maverickbenson3258]

FTP is ABOUT 60mins(not exactly) it can be anywhere from 35mins to 70mins depending on how well trained you are.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Someone with a race mindset, a cyclist that does crits and races will know how to measure his fitness from shorter efforts. It depends what type of cyclists you are.

[@maverickbenson3258]

Of course it’s important to also know this and your FRC or W Prime. FTP is only one component of the tools in a riders toolbox. I was just pointing out that’s it’s incorrect to say FTP has to be your 60 min power

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@@maverickbenson3258 each individual is different. Some people can sustain the longer efforts better than others. And others can sustain high power shorter efforts. The problem is when people start to compare each other. There's people who can put out a crazy amount of wattage in the sprint and then there's others that can't do it at all. And this is why each individual needs to figure out what training plan and what efforts is best for them. Today pro cyclists don't train together. They all have different training plans prescribed for each individual's ability and that ability is targeted with certain training plans.

[@jmmeares]

​@@maverickbenson3258no one is saying that

[@imspartacvs]

It would be great if you could feed your gpx data into some software and it will calculate your Critical power/FTP

[@Reply2024]

TrainerRoad has this

[@imspartacvs]

@@Reply2024 hmmmm... price is an obstacle... and also for outdoor use they are listing a power meter, no mention of gpx data

[@WilcoStrydom]

Golden Cheetah. It's free and offers loads and loads of data processing tools. It can pull all your data from Strava.

[@imspartacvs]

@@WilcoStrydom EXCELLENT.... ty

[@gerrysecure5874]

Critical Power was a term introduced by Monod & Scherrer in the 1965. It is for practical purpose all you need. Everything else like FTP, Lactate Steady State, individual threshold and the like was invented by some physiologists who wanted to make themselves a name, needlessly confusing things.

[@craighoover1495]

I have a hard time wrapping my head around this stuff. The power curve is (to me) a measurement of the force exerted upon the pedals over time as the rider gains acceleration. It naturally drops off as acceleration increases. If I lift weights to increase my ability to create instant force I will (and have seen in my own experimentation on myself) see a high short term power output. As I ride longer times the force needed drops off as I achieve a speed under the given conditions (headwind) until I am at equilibrium with the force demand.

[@gerrysecure5874]

Forget force. Cycling is about power. Power equals force x distance over time. CP is the power you can hold over long time (pretty stupid definition though because how long is long?). The power curve describes how much power you can deliver over different timespans like 5, 20, 60min separately, not at once. The 3min critical power test is a different thing. You go all out, and after you burned all your short term capacity after ca 60 sec all you have left is your aerobic CP to go on.

[@Gabriel.Vargas]

Hi Craig. You have a misconception probably caused by inertia. Power curve dropping off is something related to time and work capacity, not about power delivery under acceleration to cruising conditions. You are probably experiencing difficulties to keep power after accelerating. This means that you have A LOT of room for improvement if you work on your pedalling technique and power delivery. This is very common among begginer riders I coach. Assuming that you live in a very flat place and rides with a powermeter, try to keep steady power numbers over regular terrain for longer periods of time (we are talking about 5 to 10 minutes, to begin). Don't need big numbers, just steady numbers. Use your gears and cadence to manage power. That's just the first step. Tell me if this makes sense and has any results. Oh, and yes, don't forget force. There is a important role but it's something for a next moment.

[@rohcycling5646]

Critical Power has been around for a long time. Andrew Coggan has talked about it at length for over 20 years now. Nothing new at all.

[@rohanchristmas569]

It dates back to 1965. H. MONOD & J. SCHERRER (1965) THE WORK CAPACITY OF A SYNERGIC MUSCULAR GROUP, Ergonomics, 8:3, 329-338, DOI: 10.1080/00140136508930810

[@hemi265mustard]

Probably something that wood work better for me. I have rubbish 20min power but my 3,5 and 10 is really good

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

You lose focus. You need to subconsciously set the pressures you will be using and sustain it.

[@hemi265mustard]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed focus is not the issue, im a fast twitch boy.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

@@hemi265mustard then work on low cadence intervals to increase strength. Where is your average Cadence at normally?

[@blaze1148]

I find sitting upright when i'm on the turbo trainer it's a harder workout on your quads - this will now be my training posture.

[@chroniclesofalazyriderbyde9504]

I have done both FTP and CP before. I can say that the difference between the FTP and CP is more than 5% difference. 4DP test is more practical in terms of understanding one's strength.

[@ds6914]

I thought if you do the five minute you take 100% of the twenty?

[@jono1457-qd9ft]

Let's re-define the same old boomer broscience. What fun.

[@patrickherron1968]

3:40 150% of what? FTP?

[@JB-uv4hm]

I feel sorry for the #s junkies.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

You're 5 minute effort is going to be much more intense than than 20. What happens is it actually helps you. The five minute actually opens up your legs and then the 20 minute you perform much better than if you wouldn't have done the 5 minute.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

There's nobody that knows about intervals better than me. Listening to you guys. Talk about intervals and this type of training is like God watching down on us and talking about him.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

​@HarryTzianskisTheGodOfSpeed that's true when you can recover from that 5min effort. Some people's 5min power is extremely higher than their 20min and many people have terrible recovery from a hard effort. A kilo specialist on the track will do an OK 5min effort but probably a relatively lousy 20min effort. But if they have to do a 5min effort first, their 20 may be 15% lower than if they did a standalone 20. *I'm the opposite, my 5min power isn't that much lower than my 10min and my 20 is just a little lower than my 10.

[@roadcyclingacademy6476]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed The 5min effort should fatigue you out if you do it properly. You should ideally being doing an activation warm up set before any all out effort too. Personally, I recently did both as part of my training series. 5 min into 20min and 20min standalone. I could produce 11 watts more for 20mins without doing the 5 min fatiguing protocol prior. Which seems about right. Cheers, Cam

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

​@@veganpotterthevegan. Yes, giving yourself a few minutes rest and then starting your 20 minute. A good analogy for people to understand how things work is this. If you're going to go deadlift and you're deadlift 500 lb when you're dead with 300 lb of feels way lighter than if you didn't lift the 500 lb first.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

​@@veganpotterthevegan You're 5 minutes to your 10 minute needs to be different. You're not focusing mentally on pushing hard enough on your 5 minute. Use a lower cadence for 5 like 70 . Or even lower. Do you have a high cadence? Where is your average most of the time?

[@kubackjeee]

4:09 brooo what's up with those nails 💀

[@Penalist]

Female

[@WesternUranus]

These videos need graphs and charts bad

[@You-Tuber2024]

Seems like a pointless statistic if you can’t use it for any thing. FTP is still king

[@roadcyclingacademy6476]

FTP is great overall, yes, but it fails miserably when it comes to V02 Max and Anaerobic power capacity. CP testing gives coaches and athletes a much better lens of their ability at these important levels. Cheers, RCA Team

[@brunoj6146]

My coach defines all my training intervals as percentages of critical power, not FTP.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Starting to improve 5. 10. 20 minute efforts. Improves your cycling tremendously. I would know I invented them

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Things are changing. In the past when I would tell people that a 20 minute effort can measure your fitness. People would laugh at me. Call me a troll. 25 years later everyone is gauging their fitness through 20 minute efforts. In the past cyclists used to gauge their fitness through 100 mi effort lmfaooo00. It took them a long time to understand that you can measure someone's fitness through a 20 minute effort. And now they've understood that you could do it with even shorter efforts. Now it's up to the cyclist to understand how to put out these efforts. Because if you don't know how to put them out correctly then your fitness cannot be measured.

[@benjamintreble3805]

@@roadcyclingacademy6476 yet the CP model relies upon past science knowledge that is further developed with much deeper understanding the energy metabolism systems. We've moved on well beyong lactic acid days. You only need to look slightly into the work behind Dr Inigo San Milan on energetic systems approach and the metbolic profiling from INSCYD to see what is really possible. People should focus on physiological measures - we are training human beings not a mechanical bicycle. Vo2max, VLamax and MLSS and subtrate utlization are far more important to effective training for specific goals.

[@Naomi_Boyd]

OMG! How is it possible to make riding a bike this boring? It baffles the mind. I'm convinced that if someone invented a digital display for tying your shoes, pros wouldn't be able to lace up without one. "I don't know if they are tight enough. I don't want them falling off halfway through the race."

[@Penalist]

So, how many pro-races have you won so far?

[@Naomi_Boyd]

@@Penalist A bit sensitive are we? I'm not a pro-racer, nor have I ever claimed to be. I can tie my own shoes just fine. I don't know what your question has to do with the conversation though. It's just a pissing contest, really. It'd be a bit like me asking how many medical degrees you have hanging on the wall. I'd suggest you take a break from measuring your penis and go watch Rocky IV. It's a great flick, very inspirational. It also has an awesome soundtrack to boot, great to listen to while you workout. It will decrease your cortisol levels and increase adrenaline and dopamine production. It'll also take your mind off of being out-douche bagged in the KZbin comments.

[@thedownunderverse]

@@Naomi_Boyd 🤣

[@Penalist]

Not sensitive, simply calling you out, which seems to have hit a little nerve there ey, judging by your long and largely irrelevant response. It is not boring, it is interesting, it is about gains, perhaps marginal, which helps to win races, and does not imply the absurd suggestion that pro’s would not be able to make autonomous (training) decisions. You effectively compare yourself with them by saying that you don’t want to use the ‘instruments’ that they use, which is irrelevant when you are not a pro or a at least a racer, yet you took the time to watch this video apparently. Hence my first comment. So, do enjoy riding your bike if that does ‘excite’ you, but don’t go and criticize something as boring when beforehand you have no interest in it. Hope this helps.

[@guilaumemorin5844]

Great thread

[@user-yn5sk5ru5g]

Maybe CP is a better metric than FTP. But ectomorph nonsense is pseudoscience, correction needed 🤙

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Being able to use a shorter effort to test your fitness is an easier quicker way. And can be done way more often.