Is Damage Too High In Season 3 M+?

Рет қаралды 9,648

4 ай бұрын

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@yattayayfications 4 ай бұрын

you have unspent Profession Specialization knowledge

@thezerb 4 ай бұрын

I think the "problem" is just the way diffferent dungeons are /were designed. You see, many of these dungeons were created long before M+ was a thing. Back then, what made dungeons different /memorable was partly also different damage profiles. The mobs in A like to stun you, the ones in b curse you, and the ones in c are just gigachads that will remind you why its called "heroic" in pre-season. And as a result, when you add infinite scaling a la M+, you will inevitably get the same thing, some mobs will become damage sponges and others will become sledgehammers, so some keys inevitably will become Freeholds, and others will become Murozonds. So, if you really want to do it "right" and not have outlier dungeons where people are regularly getting 1S by trash, the only way to implement do it is set dmg hardcaps for every single mob ability. And reset them every 2, 3,4 seasons when /if the dungeon comes back into rotation again At first glance, it seems like a pretty easy ask....Until you get into the details of it.. 10-20 sometimes more mob types per dungeon with ~4-5 skills each,+ the bosses, + likely Tyrannical/Fortified modifiers ...... and suddenly we´re talking about at least roughly 100-200 new database entries per dungeon, for every dungeon in the game that will ever potentially be in the M+ pool. You can spread out the workload by updating dungeons as they enter teh pool, and going forward on new dungeons it´s then just part of the creation process.... But the total workload that it results is is probably quite gargantuan, as it´s not just "Insert a random number here", either.... And the problem becomes that, as Jacob correctly alluded to, one of cost vs. return...... as a rule, the vast majority of players don't even participate in M+. Even the majority of M+ participants never get KSM, just like most players don´t get AoTC every season. So, "How many people are running >25 at any given time and is it worth the development resources?" is , unfortunately, a very valid question, and one that the m+ community probably won´t like the answer to. ;) And yes, from what I can gather from RIO numbers, m+ participation as a whole does seem to be up this season.... But without official numbers to go by, we always have to speculate on how many of those millions of players are alts (I personally wager on at least 2/3), and that leads to a wildly varying range net participation numbers. Most times I´ve seen the thought experiment run the result , starting from teh same M+ completion numbers just with a different average numbers of alts, the total m+ playerpool was always speculated to be somewhere between 250k players worldwide on the lowest end and 1.5 mio on the highest.

@lukemoore6325 4 ай бұрын

as someone who swaps between dps and healing a fair amount I would MUCH prefer the timer/dps throughput be the limiting factor, because its so much easier get 5 people to optimize towards this and feel good about it. with healing/ surviving being the limiting factor 75% of the pressure lands on the healer which (for me anyway) is stressful and makes me not want to push while healing and DEFINATLY makes me hate puging. so thats bad. And it can make dps feel bad because you reach so many points in the game where you are having to sacrifice dps time to live or even just to make sure someone else lives a mechanic and one mistake can cause a wipe.

@ezib2547 4 ай бұрын

Well, mistakes in high keys should get punished. I mean, that’s the whole point of playing high keys.

@MarkElf2204 4 ай бұрын

As soon as healing and surviving is not an issue, we return to God comps where damage is the only priority. That sounds like a terrible time.

@mcrbelieve3923 4 ай бұрын

@@MarkElf2204 you know that the "god comp" was the best at both surviving and dps'ing, right? You can have a season where dps is what matters without having a god comp. God comp is when that comp is the best at everything.

@adamadamadam83 4 ай бұрын

I disagree with everyone. I much prefer the my pug falls apart because we couldn't do the dungeon and not because we were going to be over time.

@arlannotness 4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the compliment! I really do enjoy this discussion.

@BrennenL 4 ай бұрын

Coincidentally, I watched that YT short of your death the other day, then last night I got 1 shot by the exact same trash, but in a +18, and 40K overkill. Only death of the run, I was so bummed. I knew I didn't do anything wrong lol.

@MarkElf2204 4 ай бұрын

You can track if you're targeted and pop a defensive. Plenty of WAs that can tell you that so technically can be played better.

@BodaciousBrenda 3 ай бұрын

I completely agree with what you're saying. Back in the past it was definitely more of a damage issue and not a flat out 1 shot issue. This season has gotten to the point where the damage output of the mobs is ridiculous in comparison to the timer + dps of your party. I feel like this is especially prevalent in everbloom where you cannot have as much fun mass pulling because bolstering will destroy your group. I love affixes personally, because they keep gameplay interesting. But I do not like bolstering as an affix, because most of its existence/presence in keys is to be a limiting factor. The fun part of M+ is pulling big and being efficient with your time, and bolstering just counteracts both of those enjoyable features. Another note, theres too many cc stops as well, I would much rather there be dodge mechanics more than cc mechanics.

@MadandAngry 4 ай бұрын

I think they could add a different modifier for unavoidable damage. That could be a solution.

@hikori3941 4 ай бұрын

I mostly main dps, but decided to swap healer this season, not having pushed keys in the healer role since s3 of shadowlands. The difference in the damage output in the dungeons is staggering. In Shadowlands it felt like there were moments where I really needed to be on the ball and heal well, but there were also moments to focus on optimizing my own dps or figuring out better ways to use utility. This season keys are, outside of a couple dungeons, me being stressed out from the time the key drops until it ends--and even in the better dungeons, the points where you have to really heal are crazy or have unavoidable and unpredictable deadly damage (looking at you, BRH). It feels like there is very little room for mistakes. It feels like they made the timers more lenient to compensate, but it's just not fun. It also makes pugs extra miserable. I originally wanted to push score a lot higher but I've given up and am raid logging instead.

@MarkElf2204 4 ай бұрын

You can track who's targeted with what spell in BRH and heal them. My ElvUI shows what they're targed with on their frame and I can react accordingly. Your dps can also pop defensives. I've had no issues healing low 20 keys this season with pugs.

@Sebleh 4 ай бұрын

Dungeons should def be tuned in a way that you fight the timer first and max HP at ilvl cap second though, because there's several unavoidable "guess the target!" mechanics that require you to press a defensive and possibly waste it before you know if it is even going on you, and at that point you're just playing Russian roulette with your group, which is very much not tipi topi. Edit after watching the video again: The fun in M+ is the challenge of "what can I do better?" not "what will the dungeon allow me to survive even if my group pushes all our buttons at the same time?" I don't think stacking multiple defensives is a solid solution because the defensives would have to be about equal across every spec per role (IE Mistweaver's externals would have to equal a Resto Sham's or Holy Priests, or Ret Pal equal with Hunters) and be available for every instance of extreme damage. When you look at other games with similar time attack/speed run modes, boss fights usually have patterns of unavoidable but survivable damage with active defensives (IE blocking or whatever the game has), avoidable but extremely heavy damage (basically a 1-shot), and heavy damage that can be survived every time without mitigation. IE they are punishing but fair. As it stands, past a certain key level, M+ is all punishing and not fair with some specs being edged out of the hardest content due to survivability issues. IMO the best solution would be to cap boss/mob ability scaling (which Blizzard has done before) past a certain key level, and keep the health scaling up per level, maybe even increase it for mobs. I don't really think boss health should continue scaling past a certain point though because a raid-length M+ boss can become mind numbingly boring. Maybe another solution there could be new boss abilities (based on a seasonal affix?) at the level where boss HP stops scaling.

@MrRafting 4 ай бұрын

you overcooked it

@Sebleh 4 ай бұрын

@@MrRafting Madge cuz badge.

@raechu_01210 4 ай бұрын

I agree that it's more interesting when beating the timer is the challenge holding you back. The problem is that there needs to be interesting ways for the healer to contribute to overcoming that challenge. In Shadowlands while it was less stressful to heal, you also just didn't have much impact on the key in general as long as you could meet the minimum skill necessary to heal through the 1 or 2 difficult parts in each dungeon. It's almost like healers had the problem dps have now with 1-shots: you have very little agency over whether your group successfully overcomes the challenge and times the key. I'm not sure what the solution is. Personally I would like healers to do waaaay more damage, at least as much as tanks (would have to tweak how threat works for healers but thats whatever), so that you're really incentivised to optimise healer damage. But I know a lot of healers don't want that. Maybe healers should all have a lot of utility that can contribute to clearing the key faster? Not sure.

@georgeindestructible 3 ай бұрын

The reason they wouldn't want to disconnect the damage ratio from the HP ratio in regards to scaling is because the gear's tuning itself, all of it, literally every single item in the game would have to change in both types of stats to scale differently as well in order to be properly kept in check, + that is not made to be infinitely scaling in the first place (not impossible but if they made that happen, they would be no reason for expansions) so that's they can't just overcome the "issue" simply by doing that. If you ask me, there might be cases where damage is tuned incorrectly, because there's base meaning, flat damage is just initially to high which is then exaggerated by the scaling, but, that aside WoW has a major problem in regards to visibility of damage, to the naive mind, a lot of vfx when they overlap with each other can be interpreted as something literally made for people who's mental capacity to discern extremely complex details from the smallest visible differences between the intertwined chaos of effects fighting each other in the 3D world, but while that is very significantly the case, someone else could say that Blizzard designs effects one by one and doesn't care much how they overlap and how the end result may look like and just lets the player take full responsibility for being able to see them or not, basically judging out that if you can't see something it's always your fault. Yet, there are instant missile effects in the game which have projectiles like sound waves, which are virtually invisible yet they can one shot you and somehow that's ok. It's not.

@bluemagic21 4 ай бұрын

should specify if its mob damage or player damage. I had to gaze real hard to the meter, then realized after seeing fort/tran icons.

@painfullyavarage4316 4 ай бұрын

A big problem this season is burst being so high while rot being pretty low. As a healer it feels like you can afk until the one mechanic goes off and then you have to top everyone in .1 seconds. Even as a tank it sucks, stuff like 2nd boss throne is miserable cause the damage is entirely burst which is super problematic when parry is a thing. Theres times on that boss where I take literally 0 damage the entire tank buster and other times where I take 2mil damage every auto cause I got bad parry RNG. Above a 25 tyran that boss is entirely RNG if you die or not and when your entire role is not dying it kinda ruins the experience. Funnily enough 3rd boss throne is just a fixed version of the second boss since the damage events are small but very rapid any RNG averages out pretty quick

@lazyloonie123 4 ай бұрын

What if keys were something that you worked on during the season. Once you time a run you unlock the next levels up. Then when you put your key in you can pick what size you want it to be up to the point you have unlocked. Could still be random dungeons and at the end of a timed run you could change what dungeon your key is. Would also get ride of the feel bad if you brick it.

@Torrenaxe 4 ай бұрын

I like infinite scaling. Knowing there is always a higher ceiling is great. Also that it isnt needed for any gear but just for players wanting to challenge themselves is great. Blizz team is doing a pretty good job at balancing M+ until 24 where I’m at. All specs are viable. And i think this is where most ppl are like 11-24 range. I cant speak for 25 and above

@witty95 4 ай бұрын

i think keys should be timebased: lets say 25keys would be the cap where mob/boss scaling stops, but the higher the key gets, the less time you have, so you have to adapt in that regard which would make runs more interesting aswell.

@maxime7816 4 ай бұрын

i agree with you, if u have some occasion to discuss with dev team, would be great if u can talk of it

@Gnolde 4 ай бұрын

Mooooom, I'm on TV and being called reasonable!!!! Gladge

@Furtivexx 4 ай бұрын

That would be better for sure. M+ timer being relevant, rather than survivability at high end keys. Let’s hope blizzard listens 😂😂😂

@pghcrew 4 ай бұрын

The timer has mostly been cosmetic this season and it's super lame there's certain specs that you're planning more around optimizing survivability than throughput.

@aleksaas 4 ай бұрын

It does not matter how hard dungeon is, because it is same for everyone, and we are competing against other players. So nerfing dungeon just means all players will get a key up and nothing will change when comparing player to player.

@jeanlandry69 4 ай бұрын

Last season had a god comp and was more about damage output. This season is more about survivability which makes it different: it poses new problems and makes it more interesting than if it would have been "same old damage thingy".

@mcrbelieve3923 4 ай бұрын

do you actually play those high keys? just asking

@MarkElf2204 4 ай бұрын

@@mcrbelieve3923 Do you push those high keys? Doesn't make Jean's statement any less valid.

@mcrbelieve3923 4 ай бұрын

@@MarkElf2204 It absolutely does when his point is "it makes it more interesting". He means "more interesting to watch"? Any other case makes his point invalid if he does not play the content lol

@jeanlandry69 4 ай бұрын

@@mcrbelieve3923 only 0.1% of the players push this kind of keys and it doesn't mean that the other players can't have a say on the game. On the contrary. Plus, this season, when you're a part of the 99.9% casual players, survivability is a bigger issue whatever the key level.

@elhan12 4 ай бұрын

The previous 2 weeks were crap for healing at high keys as bolstering etc just scales weird. S4 would be nice if most affix mechanics were not healer must do.

@RiseDota 4 ай бұрын

What the point of myth+score then? If there is no endless scaling the only thing that rio score will show its how many free time you have (not how skilled you are)

@Pandauno 4 ай бұрын

Let’s say we remove the damage scaling and only had health scaling in m+, there will still be an upper limit at some point. Even if you optimise the shit out of everything, no one can overcome the hard limit of item level within a single season. I agree though, having a cap based on mob health is more fun than mob damage. If blizz does nerf/remove damage scaling, I hope this topic doesn’t come up again. There will always be a cap until you add some sort of infinite player power system within each season.

@osaca2273 4 ай бұрын

Ngl, didn't watch all of video yet. Just wanted to add that the stalker jump is technically "dodgeable". It can't hit players in melee, so you can stack on it, and even bait it on a tank.

@coolaechardonnae7830 4 ай бұрын

Thank you, your Jewish accent brightened my day, PvE so much better than PvP in my opinion.

@voodoo1069 4 ай бұрын

As someone that only gets to 21-24 range most seasons I find it a lot more fun to fail a key because we didn't have the dps so we start figuring out small route changes or comp changes that allow us to get that extra 1-2 mins then pray x player doesn't get picked for a mechanic ever or two often because we know they are dead other wise and that leads to us getting walled on a boss or brick the key out right. Also remove all time based boss phasing and make it all present based so it feels fair more key levels and during tyran week.

@Yellowgreenblue069 4 ай бұрын

Nulla pinguis pullos placere!!!!!!!!

@AKRenlor 4 ай бұрын

Didn't we ask for Infinite scaling by saying Challenge Modes were too easy/boring? Didn't we say that by not running Challenge modes once you got gold and or got the xmog from it? Infinite scaling is a business move for Blizzard. That type of content that people will interact with more and more so there is more play time invested in it. When there is more content interaction there are more content creators doing videos/streams about it. MDI didn't happen with Challenge Mode and likely couldn't.

@bradb877 4 ай бұрын

It would be easy. Leave damage scaling alone. Bump mob health. But is that fun? No. It would be like fortified and tyrannical in the same week. You would just run out of time. Also, tank and healer defensives get messed up. Like fortified mob you need a tank defense. Then going into a tyrannical boss you need your tank defense. So, you would run out of defensives quickly and die. Because you can't save a defensives so your 3 min 2 min and 1 min defensives are just spent with a boss cleave incoming. Boop one shot. That's not fun.

@georgeionescu3974 4 ай бұрын

blizz will start adding more affixes instead of damage increase and maybe new mobs with crazy abilities :D

@MarkElf2204 4 ай бұрын

As soon as healing and survivability are not concerns, we return to a god comp focused on min-maxing damage and offhealing. It would be fair if every class was "tanky" (which are convincintly the cheat death dps classes in the community's hive mind) for high keys (27+) but Blizzard straight up doesn't care about tuning at all beyond 20s being completable by your average-ish civilian player. It's wild to me that fire mages are taken to high keys over other classes (Surv, BM, Ret, DH, etc) that easily do 50k+ more overall just cause mage has a cheat death. Regardless, Blizzard isn't gonna make any changes to m+ any time soon but content creators will keep being bias towards their favorite (cheat death) classes when making teir lists.

@gergosimon2884 4 ай бұрын

scaling their hp is stupid, it would make tyrannical weeks feel even worse, scaling should stop at all after 25, they should only reduce the timer, which would result in the same thing: really having to optimize damage in high keys to be able to time it. Only scaling hp sounds like a dumb take im sorry😊