Is Darth Vader Stronger than Darth Sidious? | Star Wars Canon | Feat.

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#starwars #darthvader #darthsidious #powerscaling

[@KeyIssues]

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[@xldirty-scopez8785]

Vader is such a badass

[@Tylearned]

I agree dude nice pfp

[@xldirty-scopez8785]

@@Tylearned appreciate you gang 🙌🏽

[@KeyIssues]

Amen

[@trehubb6144]

Been reading his comics since 2016/2017. Really been telling folks Darth Vader comics are amazing especially when the big moments come.

[@KeyIssues]

A lot of it is unmatched!

[@redhood1997]

hey key issues does canon prime mace windu scale above post ih anakin and was Mustafar vader Conflicted in canon

[@jfraser820]

A video on the Emperors power would be brilliant 💪🏿

[@KeyIssues]

One day I will 🫡

[@jfraser820]

@@KeyIssues 🫡🫡

[@Mikerille]

I believe Vader is far stronger, without the manipulation, and subtle control, Vader with his full power unleashed surpasses sidious

[@mr.starman8706]

I agree. Vader was even said to have surpassed Palpatine, not even a decade after Episode 3.

[@donaldsmith8648]

I love this channel!! Great video my ninja

[@KeyIssues]

Thanks!

[@diamantemrobinson]

I thought it was established in the new Canon that Vader is more powerful and even a better duelist but he's simply subservient because up until Luke, Palpatine is the only person he has left. Luke presence always conflicts him which weakens him. There's also his force avatar which was immensely powerful.

[@KeyIssues]

uhhh no

[@mr.starman8706]

​@KeyIssues you sure about that? 🤨😜

[@diamantemrobinson]

@@KeyIssues Vader was literally confirmed by Disney as the best duelist in star wars

[@user-lp8im7ow8s]

​@@diamantemrobinsonyet lost to Sidious multiple times while trying to kill him , maybe your talking about Legends , but Sidious is more powerful too but not by much.

[@diamantemrobinson]

@@user-lp8im7ow8s no Disney canon. Anakin holds back because he's all he's got

[@jared5472]

A lot of Star Wars fans, even phd level KZbinrs are blinded by love for Anakin, and immediately write him off as being stronger than Vader due to the events on mustafaar. But the emotional and physical pain, or light side enlightenment are just as if not more important in determining once strength in the force than midichlorian count. Vader may have had less “potential” than Anakin. But I’m of the opinion he would win if the two squared off. Not only is he a more experienced fighter, but he has more experience drawing on emotions to fuel his power. Which is honestly what both schools of the force train in the end. How to rely on determination, pain, and anger of the dark side, or the clarity, altruism, and forgiveness of the light. Love this channel. Especially for superhero power scaling. And I’m happy he showed the quote that gives Vader some credit towards the start.

[@KeyIssues]

thanks! appreciate the kind words and your perspective

[@ryanRosenblatt]

Just an idea but could you make a how powerful is Kylo Ren video as for me he is one of the most underrated character in Star Wars( at least for power scaling)

[@Alex-tr6rr]

Sidious stronger than Vader

[@tetrasphere8165]

At the end of the day vVader couldn't kill papa without dying. He could have down this all along but only thought it was worth it with saving luke 8n the process. Papa and vader were stuck together. Vader easily killed him in a damaged state

[@KeyIssues]

True!!!

[@tetrasphere8165]

Thank you

[@Aglo-nk3wn]

I agree 100%. Vader and Palpatine were condemned to each other. One couldn't kill the other.

[@mcsquigg37]

So how close were they exactly by the time of ROTJ? Also, any credence to the argument that Vader is susceptible to Sith Lightning due to his suit? Great video!

[@KeyIssues]

I think they’re veryyyyy close in power by then

[@newhybrid101]

​@@KeyIssues20% gap in that movie

[@KeyIssues]

@@newhybrid101 made up number that means nothing

[@genericcomicbookfan5381]

@@KeyIssuescame from the mouth of George Lucas himself

[@crowwithinternetservice]

​@@genericcomicbookfan5381 Irrelevant for Disney canon

[@elviradarroux5197]

i think your hating a bit to much on kfv.Knightfall vader was stated at the time of the raid on the jedi temple to be the most powerful sith, the greatest enemy of the jedi, unparrelled force abilities, unmatched skills to the sith that pre dates him and to have surpassed the jedi in numerous guides .The most for yoda and sidious is what sidious said during their duel and also sidious and yoda's duel being the most powerful force clash in 1000 years kfv>post 66 sidious>Yoda Darth Vader> All the people i just mentioned Prime Darth sidious>Prime Darth vader but not by that much Redemmed anakin>Prime Darth sidious Basically agree with everything else

[@KeyIssues]

Except that’s not true at all.

[@TheFrozenOne97]

Vader > Ben Solo confirmed

[@elviradarroux5197]

how what did you disagree with@@KeyIssues

[@StevenSoares-lg1zi]

Brother no he was not the movie itself literally said it so guys like you wouldn’t start saying that

[@SAPANNow]

I'd love to see live action exploring more of Palpatine's life before becoming emperor.

[@KeyIssues]

That would be so fun

[@redhood1997]

hey key issues does canon prime mace windu scale above post ih anakin and was Mustafar vader Conflicted in canon If so can you provide me proof?

[@GingerClaw42]

Great video overall, really enticing me to read more of the comics. While Palpatine was relatively fresh in ROTJ, I think he wasn’t expecting Vader’s betrayal (and likely found it crushing), and combined with Vader surprise attacking him, this is the likely reason Vader could succeed in destroying his body. However: -He still seemed to be able to duel better than Vader (who is above PT Titans) almost without practice (that’s an insane feat IMO) -Not sure Vader ever displayed the kind of power Palpatine did with the Kyber crystal -Vader never beat Palpatine in a fair fight (though one could argue Vader’s suit is Palpatine fighting unfairly to begin with, but since that’s who Vader is, it’s slightly outside the scope of the question, since many agree that Full Potential Anakin without the suit would surpass Sidious, plus the suit may give some other advantages). He only had to be powerful enough to tank an unsuspecting Palpatine’s attack long enough to toss him over the edge. If Palpatine had surprise attacked Vader, it is doubtful that Vader would be able to kill him in return. -Palpatine may be even more powerful in TROS, so none of this is necessarily even his prime, and he didn’t really die in a way, thus Vader did not truly defeat him, he merely set him back and died in the process -There is “Vader 80% of Palpatine’s power” Lucas thing, it’s arguably legitimate but whatever, it’s better to show not tell anyways -Plus, I doubt Palpatine would ever get so beat up by ROTJ Luke -In TROS, Palpatine drains Rey + Kylo (both of whom are around Vader level, maybe above Vader) and knocks them in unconscious, and casually throws Kylo down a Death Star like shaft So my inclination is still to say Palpatine is more powerful than Vader. But Luke would become what Anakin couldn’t and rival Palpatine more completely. Arrogance was always Palpatine’s weakness though (which in many ways is the danger of being too powerful, it can make you feel invulnerable in ways that you aren’t). Palpatine’s greater mastery would come from learning humility, but it’s just so against his character.

[@prettyboyz4859]

Do u have a discord I disagree w a good amount of what you said

[@GingerClaw42]

I don't use much social media, but please feel free to say what you don't agree with if you want to.

[@morgankeegan7880]

I agree with everything you said except Rey and Kylo matching or surpassing Vader. By no means am I part of the sequal hating crowd, but Im unsure how that could be argued. The only way I could imagine Kylo being scaled above Vader would be through his ability to kill the Zillo Beast when Vader did not. However, id personally find that pretty reductive, as Kylo's win was fairly circumstantial and could have just as easily got himself killed through his actions, while Vader just didn't see a point in taking such needless risks. Vader has demonstrated the ability to overpower, control and otherwise defeat other beasts of similar or even greater size outside of this in the past, such as the Ender and the Summa-Verminoth. With any other feat demonstrated by Kylo, Vader has a comparable or superior feat to match. Given Rey scales as roughly comparable to Kylo, perhaps slightly inferior, I'd say the same holds true for her.

[@GingerClaw42]

​@@morgankeegan7880 You have a reasonable perspective, and I agree Vader has better feats than Kylo and Rey in many ways. And I like Vader a lot better in terms of his plot as a character. That being said, Key Issues has done videos where he ranks the most powerful Jedi and there seem to be quotes he cites which imply that Ben Solo reached a power level comparable to Luke Skywalker, who is quite a bit more powerful than Vader. His lightsaber combat skills have also been compared to Luke and Vader. And I agree that Rey seems blatantly comparable to Kylo, and likely only a bit inferior. If you take things like the Skywalkers at War and The Last Jedi novelization seriously, I can understand ranking Kylo above Vader. On the other hand, going directly by how much the characters have accomplished, combined with how competent they seem on-screen, I can understand ranking Vader ahead of Kylo and Rey. It does seem debateable to me. Nonetheless, Kylo and Rey are often very underrated in power just because people hate the sequel trilogy, and Palpatine's feat of draining them like it's nothing is an impressive feat that seems beyond Vader's ability (which is ultimately what I wanted to argue).

[@morgankeegan7880]

@GingerClaw42 I 100% agree with your overall point, Sidious' ability to drain Rey and Ben simultaneously with ease and then temporarily incapacitate them both is easily enough to scale him over Vader, nevermind his other accomplishments. I also completely agree with the sentiment that disingenuously scaling a character lower simply because you dislike them or the material they appear in is ridiculous, and its easily the main reason people look down on fun attempts at scaling characters - because it strips the fun out of it. I have no particular love for Rey and Kylo, but It would be ridiculous to deny there isn't at least some debate regarding their comparability to Vader. My main hesitation is in taking quotes/accolades (as well as creator comments) too literally, as they exist within a vacuum while characters do not. For example, to flip it the other way, Vader has numerous accolades referring to him as the 'greatest lightsaber duellist of all time', or at the very least the 'greatest dark side affiliated' duellist. And yet there are numerous examples of far weaker characters on paper giving him genuinely difficult fights, either through their own skill, or by exploiting Vader's own arrogance. As such, while I don't deny Kylo may on paper be comparable to the like's of Luke or Vader, looking at his applied ability would result in scaling him lower, simply due to his well-written character flaws that otherwise hold him back. Another great example of this would be Maul, who on paper ranks extremely highly, likely on the same tier as characters like Dooku, yet has also repetitively demonstrated such consistent, well-written character flaws that it would be disingenuous to rank him too far above the likes of Ventress and adult Ahsoka, if he's above them at all. Applied potential, and displayed competency, are more important factors to me than accolades when it comes to power scaling, as it accounts for how the duels would be realistically written. With that in mind, I would argue Vader>Kylo>=Rey. That being said, there is no right or wrong answer. Your actual point is solid, and you seem extremely well-researched and nuanced in your discussion which is always a breath of fresh air, so kudos.

[@captainzero4768]

"There is no mercy"

[@KeyIssues]

Nope

[@stevecavalle]

Hey Danco leave this video alone it will never be as good as this one

[@KeyIssues]

True! 😭

[@Bullsblackhawks93]

You should just do top 10 most powerful force users overall using both Jedi and sith

[@MasterOfTheElements]

Will you do a video about how powerful Sidious or Yoda are?

[@user-yc9vv9xb8s]

hey Key Issues when we saw Anakin Skywalker in Ahsoka Tano TV show he was true full potential Anakin Skywalker right I mean he has now both lives of Anakin and vader fused combined and merged into one so that means he basically achieved perfect balance in the force I hope we see more of him and Ahsoka season 2 maybe then you can make a video about him

[@KeyIssues]

Yes that was his most powerful

[@user-yc9vv9xb8s]

@@KeyIssues and what you think we will see more of him bro

[@General_Vaderz]

For me they are tied by ROTJ, and what makes this scary is that Vader was only like half Sidious age, imagine if he didnt die what his power would be

[@jashthemad5]

Where can I read the comic online, possibly for free?

[@GG-gg1yv]

Are you gonna go over and explain your canon power scaling list?

[@KeyIssues]

for Star Wars?

[@GG-gg1yv]

@@KeyIssues yeah

[@filipcesnjak2944]

Geordge Lucas said that Vader/Anakin power is 80% of the power of Sidous or Yoda ... end of debate.

[@prettyboyz4859]

irrelevant for canon

[@alecjackman2655]

George Lucas lost any say in the matter the moment he sold Star Wars to Disney. It’s not like it’s actually retconning what’s shown in the movies since the whole 80% thing is never mentioned in the films and is just an author statement. If it isn’t officially mentioned in the films then Disney can ignore/retcon what George said.

[@alanpena8643]

I think that in terms of potential in the force, Anakin/Vaders should be in a league of his own. But Vader would never be stronger than Sidious in his life time. Not because it’s impossible but because he could never be the Sith Sidious was. No matter how many times he has his moments of getting stronger in the dark side the shard of Anakin will always be in him, he will always be in conflict even if it gets buried. He can’t beat Sidious at his own game. Forgetting about power levels and abilities, no matter how terrible Vader was compared to Sidious he’s preferable. But if Vader were to embrace the light side like he did when he saved Luke, I believe in that moment he was more powerful than Sidious. The only reason he died was because his life support was destroyed and he didn’t want to use the dark side to hold onto life.

[@KeyIssues]

Sidious really was the ultimate evil

[@Juan-tm8fk]

Do you think Vader would stand a chance against the Dyad-Powered Emperor from TROS

[@Aglo-nk3wn]

I also agree with you and believe that considering their fight and Vader's entire journey in the latest canon comics, this fight and Sidious's words mean that Vader eventually became more powerful than Darth Sidious, but the Emperor still remains his master and is superior to Vader with mastery because he knows the secrets and force abilities of the dark side that Vader doesn't know, such as how to use someone's power and hatred against himself. This all makes perfect sense why Vader still had to obey Palpatine and why was eable to finally defeat him only after he rejected his hatred and chose love for his son. Also i would like to point out that Vader's lightsaber fight with Palpatine in the Crimson Dawn comic did not showed that Darth Sidious is superior to Vader in lightsaber duel. Palpatine attacked Vader, who started the fight quite safely and the Emperor surprised Vader with aggression, but later when Vader wanted to counterattack with masive strike, Sidious immediately just ended their sparring. Officially, in the canon, in one of the encyclopedias it is said that Darth Vader is superior to Darth Sidious in lightsaber combat and is the best lightsaber duelist. Thank you @KeyIssues for your work!

[@benjamintavarez9862]

W vid

[@kirbystarally2818]

0:00 What's with the sass bro? 🤨

[@shmebulfurdmcglucketthe3rd296]

Vader truly is the greatest Star Wars character

[@Darkverse11]

Hey do you accept suggestions?

[@KeyIssues]

sure, but I might not make what you suggest

[@scerkann3966]

Vader let him force crush Sidious crush and didn't fight back. That's what the author said

[@KeyIssues]

When and where

[@TheFrozenOne97]

Author never said that

[@scerkann3966]

@@KeyIssues I will look for the source. Someone asked the author on twitter about this fight, he said that Vader wasn't fighting back

[@prettyboyz4859]

@@scerkann3966matt Martin said he didn’t think Vader was fighting back really in issue 6 but not the author of the comic

[@myjourney5753]

If Vader was stronger than Sidious, he never proved it.

[@error-4269]

I believe vader can win but he has a mental block on himself so that's most likely not happening.

[@MasterOfTheElements]

Wasn't it said that Vader was 80% while Sidious was a 100%? while full potential Anakin would have been more powerful than Sidious.

[@pissupmyasshole]

The whole point was that Vader knew he couldn't defeat Palpatine alone and needed Luke as an apprentice. The only argument is that Vader could potentially kill him but die in the process.

[@DrD00M3]

What exactly holds Vader back from surpassing sidious I just wonder considering his potential?

[@prettyboyz4859]

I would argue it’s more of his mindset/the way palpatine manipulated and groomed him. Cause it’s implied in multiple sourcebooks and the comics that Vader still had the potential to surpass the emperor

[@DrD00M3]

@@prettyboyz4859 oh I see I always wondered cause I knew he still had the potential I just wondered why he couldn't reach it

[@grandmasteryoda6687]

​@@DrD00M3Vader's inner conflicts and Sidious's manipulations are what's holding him back from surpassing him. Despite that Vader is still powerful enough to challenge him by himself with Sidious acknowledging it, but because Vader's hate makes Sidious more powerful as said in issue 40 that's pretty much why Vader is never able to surpass him. The narrative will always have Sidious as superior, but he is only >= Vader and will have to use everything he has in a drawn out fight in order to beat him. With redeemed Anakin, it's a different story, which is where he finally surpasses Sidious and everything that has been holding him back this entire time is no longer a thing anymore

[@broncohaak]

Dang a whole 2 minutes of an ad.

[@KeyIssues]

idk what you're complaining when there is a scroll bar on the timeline. you're getting free entertainent

[@gingerzombie6964]

How powerful is doctor who?

[@miroatanasov]

I do agree that Palpatine is more powerful than Vader.

[@KeyIssues]

Think Vader will ever be stronger!?

[@AtarusArchive]

@@KeyIssueshopefully not!

[@prettyboyz4859]

@@AtarusArchivecope bucko

[@AtarusArchive]

@@prettyboyz4859yawn yawn womp womp

[@canis2020]

My 2 cents? While Grand Pappy Palps was magnitudes more powerful than Sandi Ani. However in death? When Vader becomes the force? I think thats what the force ghost thing is. Why they say that The Dark Side is more powerful in the quick gains department its like overclocking a computer. You CAN do it but it will burn out and when it does good luck salvaging anythinf

[@KeyIssues]

Anakin always had higher potential

[@newhybrid101]

Lucas said Sidious is stronger.The End *Classic Star Wars credits roll Edit: Lucas IS Star Wars,for better or worse. I dont care what a bunch of papers say. The EU is more canon than Disney as a few aspects of ut were acknowledged by Lucas and the real team. Pure G Canon>EU>>>Lego SW>>>>>>Disney Wars

[@crowwithinternetservice]

Lucas sold the franchise years ago. Also he contradicts himself a lot

[@drksideofthewal]

@@crowwithinternetservice Even without statements from the creator, it would be the stupidest retcon to make Vader stronger than Sidious. Why wouldn't Vader overthrow Sidious?

[@crowwithinternetservice]

@@drksideofthewal Because as the video presents, Sidious will always be his master. It's more psychological than anything. It's not until Luke frees him that he finally stands up to the emperor one last time.

[@Aliens1337]

Lucas also said Anakin would be the strongest if he hasn't turned to the dark side. Palpatine made the suit to specifically weaken Anakin/Vader. It causes him constant pain. It limits his mobility. The suit was basically a prison for Vader. Palpatine intentionally did that, so Vader couldn't be stronger than him.

[@rheem5794]

​​@@crowwithinternetserviceWho cares? He's the creator. Who are you to say the creator is wrong to say a character he created is stronger than another character? That makes zero sense.

[@Crackmiser]

What truly disgusts me is knowing what we could have gotten in terms of overall story. How nice all these comics and books and stories could have tied in together with the sequel trilogy if the movies had simply been executed properly. I know some people who were really enjoying the vader comics… until they tried to tie it in with episode 9 and exegol, tbh I don’t blame them. I lost interest in these comics the second they tied it to somthing I despised. Look I’m not saying these comics are bad, it’s just that it makes me sad knowing that they could have been so much more and utilized a potential story that actually worked, instead of one of the most reactionary decisions I’ve ever seen in movie history.

[@KeyIssues]

Ik why they call you snow miser, because you’re a snowflake 😭

[@Crackmiser]

@@KeyIssues I like you, I like your content, but that doesn’t mean much coming from a dying channel.

[@Darkverse11]

​@@Crackmiser Damm bro roasted him

[@KombatW0mbat]

I will say I fully believe sidous is stronger. While vader is a better duelist I don’t believe their little scuffle proves sidous is the superior duelist I do believe sidous has him beat in force power. Many write off vader due to mustafar because they believe due to many youtubers saying it that when vader got burned he lost his potential he most certainly didn’t because midicholrians are cell by cell his count Is 20k+ per cell not over all and losing cells doesn’t weaken ur connection to the force at all it literally just means there is less of you Another thing that keeps vader weak is his mind unlike sidous vader is always going through emotional highs and lows. Which fluctuates his power

[@adremal1840]

No

[@MasterOfTheElements]

You are so handsome love the curls

[@mr.starman8706]

As far as I'm concerned, Vader had already surpassed Palpatine by the point of A New Hope. Vader's growth was nothing less than astronomical. The majority of those "trumps" that Palpatine had was against a nerfed and conflicted Vader. But regardless, great video, Key Issues! I look forward to seeing what you have for us next! 😉😁

[@user-kx3tw1gh8j]

Total Bs,you forget that Palpatine grows in power too,if Vader was truly stronger I doubt that he would have risked wanting to train Luke so they could defeat Sidious “together “.Sidious has always been stronger no matter what year.

[@mr.starman8706]

My friend, just because Vader was stronger, doesn't mean Palpatine was a weakling. Vader was absolutely aware of what Palpatine is capable of. He would simply know that having his own son by his side would better increase their chances against Palpatine.

[@user-kx3tw1gh8j]

@@mr.starman8706 I don’t think so,Vader was simply weaker than Sidious,just read the novels and comics and you see for yourself

[@mr.starman8706]

I could say the same to you, friend. I could make solid arguments of Sidious being weaker than Vader in the current Canon, with feats and statements to back it up.

[@user-kx3tw1gh8j]

@@mr.starman8706 My friend I don’t care about your arguments, I know the Lore be it Canon or Eu,Vader is weaker than Sidious,i find the Anakin/Vader fanboys pathetic,they are usually those who read books and comics about SW the least,mere pretenders with no critical thinking who believe in everything that Sw Theory or Stupendous Wave say,don’t bother replying to my comment because i am not reading your comment,ihonestly tired of people like you

[@mosesmelchezidek5295]

Anakin defeated the Sith. Killing Darth Sidious and Darth Vader.

[@noelgalloway1232]

Thought Vader was only ever going to be 80% of sidious peek after mustafar? Or is that not canon anymore?

[@KeyIssues]

not true in canon or Legends

[@darthvader8863]

@@KeyIssuesthat was true in legends George Lucas stated it

[@metairie33]

1at

[@glasses685]

There's one obvious fact that pretty much proves Sidious is stronger. If Vader had ever been strong enough to overthrow Sidious, he would have.

[@KeyIssues]

Did you watch the video or read the comics? If you did, you'd know that isn't true

[@ChromisPasqueflowerBowerbird]

lol garbage canon enjoyer

[@NobodyHere44]

Darth Vader all day!