Is Games Workshop a Monopoly in Tabletop Wargaming?

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Thanks so much for watching! I know I said you're probably not the best control group for this... but here's the Strawpoll of WHERE DID YOU DISCOVER WARGAMING? Be honest! strawpoll.com/kjn18ox3jyQ

[@euansmith3699]

I got in to Tabletop Wargaming by the usual route; my Dad went to school with Phil Barker, and so I used to get sent along to Phil's flat to play weekly games, the usual. 😄👍

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

@@euansmith3699 Yes... the most common of origin stories hahahahaha

[@direden]

My first experience was GW. I bought the 40k Rogue Trader book and the box set that contained 30 marine minis from my local comic book shop. I was 16... I can't imagine a 16 year old buying a core book and a starter box with their own money nowadays.

[@makinote]

back in 94 there were not many alternatives to GW. Looking at some classmate white dwarf sold it to me. I was already into RPGs

[@PadrePython57]

Neither

[@brendon9238]

One of GWs best moves was convincing people that their hobby was Warhammer and not Wargaming.

[@swiss86]

Also the worst move.

[@franciscopina2899]

Best move for them, worst move for the hobby at large ☹️

[@noblegalifreyan4551]

Warhammer 40K is the call of duty of wargaming.

[@MonsterPainter]

I have never played 40k or AoS, my entree was through Frostgrave. Long live miniature agnostics.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

I love that! And a modern game system too so that's fairly recent!

[@reubenmccallum3350]

I really enjoy the not-bombastic, relaxed style of chat in these videos. So much content that tries to be a GW haruspex is both over the top (in both directions, positive and negative) and largely people wishlisting instead of actually engaging in analysis. Good work.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Thank you!

[@BillPaine]

I’m an Old. My first wargame was Squad Leader (and Car Wars). My first miniature game was FASA’s Star Trek starship combat for their RPG. My first GW game was Blood Bowl. I’ve loved and been irritated with GW, but I’ve never been disappointed with the quality of their miniatures or art - sometimes their rulesets or marketing decisions. I’m glad that Corvus Belli is the company it is. Is Mantic good to work with as a retailer? I’ve communicated with them as a customer and I like them. I like what they’ve tried to do. I hope they have a Corvus Belli - like level of success. I really liked this series of conversations. Thank you

[@ArchangelMiniatureGaming]

I just printed a 3000 point empire army for old world. Not because I hate GW, or don't want to support them (I bought both tomb kings and bretonnian boxes) but because they simply arent available. Everything is sold out everywhere. I don't have a local store, so I have to go online. And ebay is a whole barrel of hell no right now, so printing was my only real feasible option. Now I have an army, and my two sons have armies, and we can all play together.

[@turtlecheese8]

You and your sons have armies and you didn't have to cash in their college loans to get them!

[@ArchangelMiniatureGaming]

@@turtlecheese8 exactly! I had to blow a hundred bucks on 2 bottles of resin, and probably 100 more on files... but hey, not too bad

[@franciscopina2899]

I'm going exactly the same route with both my Empire and Skaven armies (OPR Patreon here) and no matter what those GW shills say, it IS a lot cheaper than buying the minis, print fails and all 🙂

[@flameofudun8447]

""Its a bloodbath'' is an appropriate description of the tabletop wargaming marketplace. Games Workshop sits on their throne of skulls laughing at the competition. I can hear them yelling with glee ''Blood for the Blood God!''

[@patrickmcelveen387]

I'd love to see a GMG - Tabletop Minions crossover event discussion this same topic.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Well there's a good chance that might happen!

[@mikegrant8031]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I will mention it to him at gama

[@rmkarros]

​@@GuerrillaMiniatureGamesthat would be awsome

[@euansmith3699]

It took me a while to click the Tabletop Minions is Uncle Atom.

[@theanimaster]

Well this comment sure aged well!

[@matthewwasserman3179]

Ive really enjoyed these past 2 videos on the business side of the industry. Please consider producing more of them. Honestly sometimes the business is even more interesting than the games.

[@mikeridgeview9557]

When it comes to wargaming and monopoly, hobbyists have a part to play in this too. You have to fight and advocate for the games you want to see played/supported. If everyone just flocks to GW, because they're the 800 pound gorilla in the room, nothing's going to change. We have to double down on other games and intellectual property and give them our support. GW doesn't just monopolize the industry, it monopolizes our options. Not all of us are interested in what GW does. There's a universe of other possibilities out there.

[@bostria]

Yup, there are Infinity of options.

[@willsuttie3683]

I wouldn't call monopoly a wargame. It's just a board game.

[@timbrault9939]

The problem is unless the player base in an area has the location, the focus to play and keep playing and a store willing to now financially take that leap then that isn't a hill you are trying to climb. That is a cliff.

[@ZeeLobby]

I've seen several people get burned going down this road. Dumping thousands into a game to promote it and then having buckets of value-less product to show for it. It's definitely a risk.

[@robertronngren]

I'm not interested in "fighting" for anything like that. This is just a hobby. I just want to paint and play and relax. I'm never going to play a game that I can't find opponents for relatively easily. I think most people are like me.

[@MH-qb1tk]

I think OPR is probably an intersting take as a "warhammer adjacent" game and almost how their miniature agnostic approach to their game system has ,at least from an outside perspective, has been successful for them.

[@Winter420]

i am really enjoying this series. my first introduction to wargaming was through my dad, he was playing epic in the early 90s, and here i am around 30 years later building my 10th? army.

[@euansmith3699]

46:56 "Well, I'm not going to build a big company; so. I'm just going to do this one thing I like, and make it." Sean Sutter has entered the chat 😍👍

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

The benchmark by which all other independent designers are judged.

[@ZeeLobby]

Relicblade? Any good?

[@whilehobbying]

The best@@ZeeLobby

[@euansmith3699]

It is very much a micro skirmish, with games being around 5 minis per side. However, there is so customization to keep things fresh, and the theme and tone of the game are spot on. @@ZeeLobby

[@ZeeLobby]

@@euansmith3699 that's awesome. Have definitely dove into smaller skirmish games lately as my painting free time has diminished. Might have to add relicblade to our Bushido rotation

[@angrychainaxe2803]

I will preface this by saying that I love my local store and I really want them to be successful, but I miss the variety they used to have. Through that store I discovered Flames of War, Wild West Exodus, Legion, and my favorite game, Dust 1947 (sigh). 40K has always been the game I played the most over the years, but I loved going to the shop and seeing what else was out there and possibly discovering a new game. Now, the shop is mostly 40K with a small selection of Team Yankee (not interested, no Sherman tanks). It’s still a great shop, and they usually have what I need for my World Eaters and other Chaos forces, but I really miss seeing a wider selection of what the hobby has to offer.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

And I wonder what that means for the discovery of OTHER new things by folks new to the ecosystem? How will they see alternatives if they only place they can find them is online and that has to fight the algorithmic vortex?

[@ApocryphalPress]

I was a roleplayer first - D&D. I was huge into the Forgotten Realms books. A store was opening in a neighbouring small town and Ed Greenwood (who also lives locally to my home town) was going to be at the opening to sign books. So I went. The store was small but there were all kinds of boxes along one wall of 2nd edition 40k that caught my eye. Imperial guardsmen, blood angels; dark angels; a chaplain on a bike. I had never seen anything like that before. At the back of the store was a small table and two guys were playing: Eldar versus marines. I was intrigued. I went back a few times when I could and watched people play and got to know them. I wanted in. The guy running the store was happy to hear of my interest but told me to wait a couple months as 3rd edition was going to drop. So over the next couple months I kept going back to meet with the community and the day 3rd dropped I was the third customer to buy the starter. He even gave me a discount.

[@euansmith3699]

Great to hear you were given a heads-up about 3rd Edition. There's a store owner who know how to keep a prospective customer hooked.

[@ApocryphalPress]

@@euansmith3699 Yeah, it was quite helpful really. The store owners were a wife and husband team and actually cared about the customers while the store was operational.

[@chasepaterson634]

Battletech and Rafm historical/Fantasy minatures. Early 90’s. First time being introduced to minatures.

[@jcpouzols]

I have a pretty clear memory of my local game store back in the early 2000s having almost equal portions GW and Rackham on their walls. Admittedly, this was in France, and as you know that didn't last very long nor did it end well for Rackham... Had that company not been so eager and overreaching, maybe it could have found a way to survive and prosper the same way Corvus Belli has. Oh well... Thanks for another fascinating conversation!

[@BonusHole]

Rackham Confrontation/Ragnarok was THE BEST fantasy setting in my view. What GW have failed to do with Warhammer, Rackham achieved. Artistically it was on another level, the mini sculpts are yet to be outdone for fantasy minis - I STILL haven't seen fantasy miniatures as good as Confrontation. The game system was it's own and had a great future. They threw away their main strength - the artistry, when they went rubber, pre painted, pre made minis and come with the pants AT-43 as their sci-fi setting. They abandoned their strength and tried to compete with GW's 40K. If the two had both stayed around we'd have a great sci fi setting and a great fantasy setting. I don't think anyine will do a better fantasy setting than Rackham. Warmachine/Hordes is really great... but not quite strict fantasy...

[@BradleyBlodgett]

Super Video! Nobody mentioned GW's desire to take everything direct and have mounted campaigns to incentivize this buying behavior. Jordansorcery did an amazing interview with a former CEO that discussed this strategy. It reminds me of the Oracle of the mini wargaming industry. They feel their fair share of the hobby spend is 100%

[@terrencemiltner1005]

Just came back to this video to make sure I quoted you correctly in my comments on another video. That concept of an anchor product is so accurate and is an apt model for the conversation if D&D is a monopoly that Dungeon Craft is posting today.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

The irony is D&D can’t be an anchor any more. Only its off-brand supplements can be. The margin of sale for retailers is so razor thin there’s no point even selling it. You’re basically doing so at cost.

[@NovaG8r]

Asmodee is also in the unfortunate position of being owned by the Embracer Group which went on a buying spree (dozens of videogame studios, Dark Horse Comics, the Lord of the Rings IP) and is now slashing costs (and jobs) left and right.

[@omegavulture8379]

Games workshop is the huge tree growing over your garden, it gets most of the sun but not all of it, it is not the only thing growing in your garden but it is the largest.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Great analogy.

[@TheBeardyDragon182]

I got into 40k way back in the late 90s as my time at school was coming to an end. I never really played it, but I collected it instead, i have since gotten away from the GW factory and i am full on frostgrave and stargrave. I find frostgrave and stargrave just so simple to play which is great!

[@Jeremus717]

I became interested in this series of discussions because I've been feeling actually stuck in the Games Workshop ecosystem, and I want to Branch out into Infinity and Mailifaux... But even my local game store that carries other things is so focused on Warhammer and AOS that there's nobody to play with outside of those products, and no one is interested in branching out when there such a ready availability of pickup games and leagues centered solely around those two games.

[@8BitJesus]

Corvus Belli are a fantastic company, everyone at my FLGS who's played infinity - everyone loves the game, has mad respect for the company, and that's going a long way to their new releases. 3 of us have pre-ordered Warcrow, like you said, you know what to expect

[@nl3734]

The owner of one of my local shops is huge into Battletech so the wall of models is pretty equal parts Battletech, Warhammer, and D&D. The other wall has boardgames and then of course the massive section of Magic. The other shop is mostly Magic with some Warhammer sprinkled in. It's always interesting to see how the shop is influenced by the owners interests, and of course what makes money.

[@HappyDuude]

That's a great shout - the 600lbs gorilla is as much Magic as it is GW, particularly as there's a significant crossover between the two communities. The problem/issue is, for a fantastic game/system - once youve collected everything - why else do you need to buy more? There's this argument that games aren't 'dead' if not developed - the counter argument is the shelf space argument.

[@jonathandavis4819]

These videos are fantastic. I love.the conversational aspect, makes for great listening on the road or on a walk. I love your reviews but they aren't as easily consumable while I'm mowing the lawn.

[@MiniatureGameMontage]

These aren't my typical style of videos but I'm loving them.

[@rustedbeetle]

As a former buyer for some independent gaming stores, I've been really digging this series! It has been a while since I left, and it interesting to see how much has changed, and how much hasn't aged a day.

[@danielmiller1826]

Warhammer stores seem to survive in UK small towns even when other retailers are closing down:not just hobby and comic stores, but electronics, independent cafe's, ironmongers and such all closing down and there's like a Greggs and a Warhammer store. So it's quite remarkable in that sense.

[@terrencemiltner1005]

That is a fascinating way to reframe the conversation. They are not a monopoly legally, but they certainly are an anchor. And they offer more products the way the big beer and soda brands offer new products to push out other brands from the limited shelf space. I learned that tactic from watching Beer Wars about how the big brands push out craft brewers.

[@heresyhobbyist]

Didnt expect to see Chris here! Lords of war is a really great local hobby store would recommend stopping by if you are in the GTA.

[@thehorridperson]

Nice insights across the board. My man of the match was Chris' comment on a game/community built on resentments. We play games to have fun and whether people reconcile or not, there is still going to be that foundation of negativity that makes it unsustainable. Being angry is a lot of work and just burns you out.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

I miss you Archie. And it made me smile that your grumpy ass made such a wonderfully gentle hopeful observation. :)

[@thehorridperson]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I have a bit of a balancing act in my hobby space. I find myself dividing time between GW stuff and any other game I can find that interests me. I've never been much of a game player, but I've always appreciated neat models of any stripe and trying out different projects. I plug awway a couple of the GW offerings because Stan and company are mostly locked in and I enjoy their company (In small doses, but not as much as my cats :P ); It's nice even for curmugeons to have some social time. I do all the other stuff for myself. I blame it on the RPGs that proceeded wargaming. I like building little worlds in miniature. I'm always searching for the holy grail ruleset that will do what I want elegantly, but with enough granularity that I'll stop looking. Until then I keep finding kernals in almost every system I explore. Rules aside there are so many neat models out there to paint. I've been dabbling in Solo Wargaming. It gels well with the GW group projects because I always have something different to play around with and the only projects that are time sensitive are the ones involving other people. WWhen I'm don't have a legitimate "deadline" for shared games I can putter around in ImagiNations and relax with a painting projects, terrainbuilding, rules auditing, even a little creative writing and design. I like "All the things", but the two sides make me happy for different reasons.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Life with nuance is life with balance.

[@JPGotrokkits]

Nah, it's actually really easy to be angry. Resentment fuels you just as much as love. It comes from the same place.

[@thehorridperson]

@@JPGotrokkits You do you, but I don't agree. Resentments aren't constructive. You can let them go, or you can hold on to them, but they will eat at you. Try not to look at where those things come from, but where they go to.

[@colinfaubert9136]

Hey just wanted to say love both your guys channels, I was a snot nosed brat at your gw's long ago and can definitely contribute your guys enthusiasm for getting me so deep in hobby. I live up north now and Conquest is going strong I think Parabellum is definitely a company to watch

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Hi Colin! They’re in that same lane as CB I think. Definitely have a plan they’re sticking too. They just need fifteen steady more years to solidify and really build up!

[@ClaudiosCollection]

Awesome episode, guys! I really enjoy these industry discussions! "It's like Warhammer" is a phrase I've said more often than I thought when introducing people to miniature games even though the game I'm introducing isn't much like Warhammer... there's just miniatures, and when I see miniatures, "it's like Warhammer".

[@rustedbeetle]

In the early 2000s, we were selling lots of games. We sold GW, of course, but we had tons of sales of the D&D prepainted minis blind boxes, same for Star Wars, all of the Clix games, Reaper's metals were the choice of RPG players, Old Glory for 15mm and 25mm Napoleonics. At the same time, we had D&D Third edition which was going strong along with the third party publishers that made five times as much as WotC did. We had a wall of Battletech metal blisters, Jovian and Heavy Gear, Micro Armour, etc. Battlefront Miniatures was just launching Flames of War. We bought their launch line and it was shipped from New Zealand. When it arrived, every single blister had popped off during shipping, probably from the temperature and pressure changes during shipping. We had to sit down with some of our WWII players to ID each tank body, tread and turret and reassemble each card, packing the tanks into small zip top bags and staple them to the cards. It was a rough start, but the game sold crazy well. It seems that today, it is much more difficult to launch a new game, then to sustain interest, especially without an established IP. Would Crisis Protocol have lasted without Marvel? Would Legion stay as long without Star Wars? Can you launch successful popular games without an IP now?

[@WilliamHatton0]

Historicals/WWII are in a way IP. For small hobby as tabletop mini gaming, it seems to need IP to get the mass of players needed to sustain a game, with downside of long-term health of the game. Or find small niches in the industry like Infinity as they mentioned. And the internet has given much more choice for people to find their niches in the hobby. Though it probably hasn't scaled down well to the local level.

[@fireinacan]

IP is becoming more and more necessary for companies and investors to fund big projects. It gets people through the door. See cinema as another example. Unfortunately is it very limiting to creativity.

[@GamesLostForever]

Great analysis guys. I would say besides Infinity, another company that takes a steady approach is Parabellum. They have been steadily building Conquest with new factions, new units and consistent rules updates for 5 years now. Even though it is a rank and flank, I don't think Old World coming back displaces it, because PB have completely different objectives to GW. Old World is more going to displace things like Warhammer Armies Project or 9th Age, which are 100% targeted at former Fantasy players. Those are the 'remora' systems you mention, which absolutely do suffer/stagnate when GW revives a main product line. It is also important to remember that GW have been here before twice. The first time was in 7th, where they made a lot of money but alienated the player base. Then they reset with 8th, brought many back in, then proceeded to bloat the game in 9th and repeat the exact same mistakes. 10th they have managed to recreate the cycle inside a single edition. They aren't too big to fail, but they are of an economy of scale that crashing and burning for an edition doesn't end them, it just stagnates them. Smaller companies do not have that scale, and so a single bad edition generally ends them. Or also, as you both point out, sometimes it just doesn't catch on and people lose interest. Overall I would say the future is very bright. GW stores have not been a hub for anyone for some time now, the internet makes it easy to discover new systems (word of mouth is still the #1 way new people get recruited, not shops), and there are several other minnows that do not emulate GW but cater to other niches. 3D printing also sidesteps the 'buy in' issue IMO. It has actually never been easier than now to make and spread your own wargame, but the trap is to try to become another GW.

[@MrHaicken]

Thank you for the enjoyable video. I agree with pretty much everything said. One should also consider that GW has spent decades developing an integrated consumer experience which essentially is a vertical monopoly.

[@Manpayi]

I think it’s interesting because of how much Bolt Action has taken off here in the Midwest that they weren’t brought up. Anecdotally it’s starting to steal space from some of Warhammer Specialist games. Conquest has unbelievable miniatures, just little adoption here

[@brianadventures9622]

Really enjoying these videos! Thanks for the chat and info!

[@lorcannagle]

My LGS has definitely gone through a lot of cycles similar to what Chris talks about with non-GW wargames. Hordesmachine, Dropzone, Flames of War, Infinity, Warlord Games and Mantic have all come and gone from the shop, the current non-GW bits are the various Star Wars games and Crisis protocol. They stock BattleTech in as much as they get most new releases and then let it sell out but they seldom reorder the beginner products. That said the space occupied by GW has also shrunk in there in the last 5 years in favour of board games. Most of their gaming space is just CCGs these days, it's hard to get a table for a wargame so my BattleTech group has basically moved to a function room in a pub, and someone there has opened an account with a distributor to order in for us.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

That's so interesting. The Battletech thing in particular. I'm guessing you're in the UK which would mean you're also the most saturated per square mile with GW having their own direct to market retail chain. I wonder what the influence of that has had on market saturation.

[@lorcannagle]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames I'm in Ireland rather than the UK, when I got into the hobby in the late 80s there were basically two places to get minis games in Dublin - the Virgin Megastore that stocked GW alongside a lot of RPGs, boardgames and a small selection of other minis (I lusted after their boxes of the Aliens minis from Leading Edge but could never afford them!); and a model shop that expanded out into GW (and briefly Kryomek if you remember that), then Magic cards right before the CCG boom hit and then dropped all gaming product by about 1997. When I was a kid reading White Dwarf I longed for a GW shop for the fun events that got advertised and access to the full line of minis, but I had given up on 40K by the time GW opened their first store in Dublin in the late 90s. They opened a second one in a shopping centre on the outskirts of the city by 2002 but that one closed after a few years (and from the stories I've heard from friends who worded there, was a pretty wild place!). The only other GW shop on the island is in Belfast which despite Data's prediction in Star Trek for 2024 is still in a different country to the Republic. These days in Dublin there's GW, two decently-sized indie stored (my LGS which is literally one road over from GW, and one out in the suburbs but fairly easily accessible), and a handful of toy stores who have some GW stuff as part of the model kit and/or board game selection. That one model shop is still around, I get a lot of hobby supplies there. Outside of Dublin, there's a handful of gaming stores scattered around the country that tend to come and go. The Gathering in Limerick is the oldest game store in the country, there was a point when there was no non-GW games store in Dublin and you'd get your stuff from them at conventions when they'd bring up a trade stand.

[@euansmith3699]

I love how Krymek scaled their vehicles and buildings to fit in to their standard blister packaging. You can have any tank you want, as long as it is a cube. 😍@@lorcannagle

[@lorcannagle]

@@euansmith3699 i think I still have a couple of those in a box somewhere, plus one of their mechs.

[@euansmith3699]

Oh, I'd forgotten about their mechs. The legs kept falling off mine; but I think that was more my failing than the company's 😍@@lorcannagle

[@trevorgoodchild2928]

Great chat. Some very insightful and measured observations.

[@andrewmacdonald1749]

Battletech was my first introduction to wargaming (when it was still FASA). Where I grew up there was practically a gang war with WH40K on one side and BT on the other.

[@beststonerr]

Great conversation, very insightful stuff.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Thanks for listening! I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@krzysztofmathews738]

Excellent and very insightful discussion. Thak you for putting this together!

[@nathanedwards4940]

I’m one of the outliers- my first game was Malifaux. I loved the look of wargaming but I didn’t like GW rules or philosophy. My first exposure to any other game was through you Ash, a super old Malifaux 1e batrep. I instantly fell in love and it’s been my main game since. Hoping to build a community. Thanks for being a pillar of the community through all these years.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

That’s so cool! I can’t believe that’s how you found it

[@JC-gv6sq]

A great discussion, hope to see more episodes diving into the hobbies little known corners/interesting topics.

[@misomiso8228]

Part of it is also that GW's two historical main lines of 40k and WFB are so good IP wise. WFB is classic fantasy tropes combined with a world very similar to ours, and as a result things like the Tomb Kings and Lizardmen feel very real and have a lot of depth compared to other fantasy races, and the Germanic Empire also feels very lived in. 40k is also an incredible IP - one of the BIG unsung virtues is that you have official Chapters of SM that people can collect, but also people can create their own chapters and the universe is big enough to accomadate them. That allows for gamers who want to paint by the numbers and also ones who want to be creative to both get something from the hobby. I also think that having 'Chaos' as the villain is such an integral part of the settings, as it gives them so much psychological depth compared to standard 'evil dark lords'.

[@marekskyrim]

Thinking about that topic, the keywords that sparked my attention are "anchor products" and "player investment". Miniature wargames are very time-consuming products : not talking about game time, but the time needed to build and paint a collection big enough so that you can play while looking good on the table (I include terrain as well, BTW). So it makes sense players are worried about a game being able to stay on a long-term basis. We have seen a shift in recent years, with editions changing sooner than before and, of course, Kickstarter projects. New games pop up constantly and faster. But the time players can spend building and painting their collection is still being the same than before - they can't make a day last longer than 24 hours, after all ! So, they can't keep up with all these new games and need to think about where to invest their money and precious time. I believe that's the real key problem a lot of game designers and game companies don't get. There are simply too many games to play and not enough time for players to really invest into for them all. It's a bit similar to what's happening in video games as well, with lot of live service games on the market asking for players to invest a ton of time to be bankable, but no player has enough time in a day to play them all. Like it or not, Games Workshop has been there for far more than any of their "competitors". The fact they're still there and keep investing in their retail stores makes them indeed a stable anchor. They are expensive, yes, but when you buy a GW product, you know you can always sell them on second hand for a fair price. When you buy an obscure game from a smaller company that suddenly disappear, good luck trying to get rid of your now useless miniatures for even a fraction of your money, even Kickstarters. The demand will simply never be as big as an anchor product like GW makes. It's very sad, when you think about it. I have known a lot of smaller games, some I really loved like Anima Tactics. Then it disappeared. I still have the wonderful miniatures and can use them for other games, sure, but those who remember them are fewer and fewer as years pass on. Their value is essentially priceless, in a bad way (meaning they actually have no value because no one really need them anymore). Same for my collection of metal Eureka miniatures or the horde of 3D printed miniatures that fill my shelves : they essentially have no value too on second-hand markets, because their brand is meaningless. This is really wasted money, from a certain point of view...from my own, it brings pleasure to own them so I can justify it that way, but once I'm gone ? They'll be thrown in a garbage bin, alas... I found myself looking more and more at older games, oddly, even with rule systems that are seen as "inferiors" by young ones nowadays. Because I know them and they are considered "finished", so it's a very stable basis to build on. I still never truly finished building my old collections, and chasing constantly the new dragon only adds to my pile of shame. But I already have my own gaming group and a big collection, so I have a lot more of options than a totally new player who needs to start from nothing. That they are concerned about finding a stable gaming community is a crucial question in this hobby, IMHO.

[@scannerbarkly]

Let's be honest, Ash. You are one of a few channels out there that gives a LOT of your time and attention to non-GW stuff. A large part of the issue that other companies run into is simply demand. GW throws stuff at influencers all the time, and they all know that painting that model or making an unboxing is just gonna being in more money than covering Infinity or Malifaux or anything else. With social media being full of Games Workshop stuff, that is what most people are exposed to so that is what they end up asking for. Stores simply cannot afford to stock stuff that might not sell, and GW has willing partners in ensuring that not many people are asking for stuff. Personally I think you are an absolute hero for trying to shine a light on as many games as you do, I'm sure it's an oasis in the desert to a lot of the companies and product you feature. I don't really want to shit on Games Workshop here, they produce very slick products and market them incredibly well. Ultimately, they were doing this dance before the vast majority of other companies out there but they could probably afford to slow down their release cycle enough so that they were not struggling to meet their own inflated demand.

[@MotleySprueminiatures]

Really interesting video- thanks for making. I used to run a GW store in the UK for 15 years, they are the least profitable way for the company to sell their product with the most overheads, and exist for the main reason to recruit new hobbyists- look at how much of the floor space and tables are dedicated to intro activities and hobby lessons. I know that the main reason the company relaunched specialist games was to get hobbyists playing with GW products in FLGS’s so was interesting to hear (and see) the decline of other companies products shelf space.

[@martinrathbone7082]

I'm not sure how it is in the states, but one thing not mentioned that I've experienced over here in the U.K is that FLGS' can be a crap shot. You get the good stores that grow a good community and manage a variety of games. The passion of the owners bleeds across and you get a good experience. Then there are the ones you walk into and you're given the side eye and gatekeeping vibe and want to get out of there as fast as possible. The Warhammer stores are as you said, a recruitment base mainly, and the aim is to train the staff to give a good experience across the board. I'm an ex-gw retail bod, I was straight up banned from the towns other LGS because I worked for GW. So my ability to get into other systems was seriously stimmied.

[@michaelchampion936]

When i was a teen, my flgs was..... the games workshop shop. It was where i started by buying the D&D box set, then other role playing stuff, then i finally went onto buying some figures and a tabletop rule book. How different it was when GW hosted others games in their shops.

[@josemanuelaguero68]

My entry point with miniatures was actually MageKnight from Wizkids and then I jumped into the LOTR from GW when I had the money for it, but quickly jumped out to Confrontation and have been playing indepent games ever since but have always kept an eye out for GW because that's all everybody else will talk about

[@escapo6895]

First exposure was Star Fleet Battles. Second exposure was Battletech. Third exposure was Rogue Trader, and that's when the infection truly took hold. Been a carrier ever since.

[@Christian_from_Copenhagen]

My local FLGS is right around the corner from a GW store, and yet their shelf space for miniatures is 80% GW with the very limited selection of other games tucked away in the far corner. I bought a box of Stargrave Mercenaries a good while ago and asked for the newer Scavengers box, and I was told it would be in stock "at some point." Six months later and still not in stock. It's sad.

[@andrewmacdonald1749]

The interesting thing about Infinity is that it started as a homebrew TTRPG, became a Wargame, which then became a published TTRPG.

[@Aodyri]

I was a D&D kid. Playing, we had little standees, or tokens from board games, and then one kid brings a super cool (for that time) Elf. Go with one of the friends to a Magic tourney at a store. Guys playing in the back on this big table with terrain, lots of minis, but these were sci fi and had guns. Watched them for the entire game. They talked to me, and told me there were novels and the store sold the minis. Looked at the minis and found a single box of dudes cost as much as a video game! Well, can't afford that. But while sitting in a bookstore (free daycare for my mom on errands basically), saw the warhammer symbol. Started reading a book about a female dwarf and her hold fighting back orcs and goblins. Kept reading novels from there. Then there was Shadow of the Horned Rat. Then Dawn of War. Then, finally about 2016 I had the money from a new job to buy into minis and armies. So RPGs that use minis for pieces, exposure at a store, to side products, to actual involvement. I have at this point sunk over $20k into GW products. Long burn, but they made their money off me

[@jonathanyeo735]

The discussion about asmodee is an interesting one. But we have to consider that those miniature games (legion/mcp/shatterpoint) are only a small focus of asmodee. AMG is a very small wing of asmodee trying to juggle 4 games. As someone who was in that scene it definitely seems like they are getting to the point where the logistics is getting to hard to handle for the size. Its very different to GW where the entire focus of the company is behind miniature gaming.

[@Xylate606]

Love these chats, such great content 🙂

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Thank you so much! I love hanging out with my friend and I'm excited we get to actually capture these conversations after nine years.

[@Tochir0]

So interesting to hear the perspective of the retailers, hope you guys keep ‘em coming

[@CloudcroftTCG]

I got into everything thru a new Warhammer store built in my city. Never knew what it was before a few months ago

[@DaleWoodruff]

Hey Ash.... I really enjoyed this! Great production, great dialogue, and tight pacing.

[@AlexAttemptsTabletop]

Such an insightful video. I hope these type of videos keep coming even if it’s sporadically. Genuinely come away thinking after watching these videos. Thanks again 🔥 🤘🏻

[@Grithertime]

I think a situation like GW is multi-faceted as you discuss. But it is interesting to see the other individuals out there making cool miniatures where 20-30 years ago they could never realize their vision of a Marine, now with the 3D space people who mess around on weekends can make their vision and then make a physical model of that is amazing and you can say derivative and stolen and basically the same. But GW has their range and can't or won't flesh out aspect and then an individual makes their vision, and offers it up which could not be realized. Now I think the space is evolving.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

It's very much like the convention artists market. You can buy huge drawings of your favourite Marvel/DC/Image character or crossovers or things you can't do in the actual brand because of IP ownership, etc. I honestly think the existance of off-brand second hand marketplaces being able to even EXIST to sell things is proof alone that at the very least it's a Monopolistic Marketplace. There are competitors but they will never reach a commensurate size and are all emulating the dominant brand.

[@ericdavis4964]

GW appears to have taken a cue out of the Grocery Store business. For the past 50+ years in the USA, space on shelves are bought and paid for by the product manufactures of the company. Their is fierce competition in the soft drinks, chips and the Cereal aisle (to name 3) over how much shelf space you have to display and on which shelf (low medium or high) your products are displayed at. You will also notice from time to time that a certain company's shelf space shrinks or grows from quarter to quarter. Sometimes it is bought and paid for directly, in other instances it might be that Coke for instance will sell the product at a deeper discount then Pepsi so that they can have a more premium location in the soft drink aisle. Also end caps in grocery stores (those locations at the end of an aisle) are often bought by one company or another. Such as Coke wants to move X amount of volume for this quarter. So they make a deal with the grocery store that they will sell the Coke products at this price point and in return the Grocery store has to display it prominently on an end cap. GW based on this interview are using similar tactics to eat up real estate within a FLGS The more prominent and wider your product is displayed, the more likely you are going to capture that market share from your casual or new shopper. Oh and if you ever wonder why Grocery Stores move stuff around in a Grocery store. It is 2 fold. One because some companies have paid for more shelf space and the current aisle they are located on cannot contain said shelf space. The second reason is the Grocery store will move things around to force the shopper to walk up and down additional aisles in the hopes that the shopper will discover something new and purchase that product. Per various studies and papers this rearrangement apparently has driven additional sales that exceed the cost and effort of moving and rearranging all the shelves.

[@benjaminhughes4628]

Thanks for a good discussion. It would have been a nice augmentation to have a copy gaming store owners to interview and see if the perspectives are all the same.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

I’ve got a couple invites floated out already to do just that.

[@jthescruff]

That last question was really interesting, because I don't think that the majority of Games Workshop players would just migrate to other systems if GW stopped. I think the majority of GW's players and collectors are there because of the lore, the quality of the mini's for painting and that somehow, against all societal odds, it's "cool". I think the handful of people who play historicals and the more niche games would continue to do so, (as they always have); you might get a handful of players looking for new systems? but I'd be surprised if there would be as many opportunities for other businesses as it might at first appear.

[@atragonx7939]

The whole "dead game" psychology is really interesting. You're absolutely right. The rules and models still exist; the game is still just as fun with friends... but it's "dead," so there' something off-putting about it. I think for me, if no one is talking about it, then I can't feel like I'm "engaging in hobby" by watching videos, or keeping up with new rules and models. I think it reminds me more of the fact that I don't have the time to actually play as much as I'd like, and playing the game takes a lot more work to find people and set aside time for it. "Living games" are much easier to passively engage... I hope that makes sense.

[@worlds-in-conflict]

I'll never forget years ago my buddy Andrew telling me there are no "dead" games, only "complete" games. That really struck a chord with me flipping my whole perspective to seeing something I enjoyed as over and done with, to seeing at as something where I didn't have to keep up with grind and changes and could just enjoy it for what it was.

[@RhysHughes-rj5ld]

A few fanboy tried to tell me that Bushido was a dead game just because it wasnt played anymore in the small town I'm in. Year on year Gct are still producing new wave minis, Bushido is still only on a second edition and are trading worldwide. Still present at ukgamesexpo every year and holds their yearly championship. In other words this guy was a tool 😅

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

That's such an intresting take Atragon... I think there's something really essential in the experience you're describing. For a lot of people wanting to get to BE engaged by it through other media is a REALLY BIG DEAL. That feeling of being part of something or that there's movement and experiences out there can be really motivating and I think what you're describing is a super common phenomenon.

[@lorcannagle]

That's absolutely a factor, I think. A lot of people get bored or frustrated with GW, move to the new hotness and then move back the GW to play with a wider base of people

[@Ethnarches]

​@@GuerrillaMiniatureGamesInterestingly with GW you can do that "passive engagement" even with their "dead games", there is or at least was more people playing and creating content for old editions of Warhammer Fantasy than for most non GW actively produced miniature games. It will be interesting to see if they manage to capture all of that with the Old World or not. So far it seems not, mostly yes, but not all. GW is so big that from the top 50 miniature games played they probably occupy most of the top 20 and that includes games they haven’t produced in decades!

[@mayofrench5170]

My hobby path started with my dad building a Star Trek play set for me. I then started building and painting sci fi and historical models. I began "repairing" and repainting Star Wars and GI Joe figures. As a young adult, I began painting minis for D&D. I was then introduced to 40K. I have tasted many other games like Star Fleet Battles, Battletech and De Bellis Multitudinis. I have always collected more than I paint. I play less often than I would like. I have bought many games over the years that I have never played (Silent Death, Renegade Legion, Star Wars mini battles). I now mostly stick to things I could use in 40K even though I rarely play. I mainly stick to collecting for my existing 40K armies. I have avoided Marvel Crisis Protocol and Star Wars Legions since play opportunities are even fewer than 40K play. Marvel and Star Wars were unable to break my budget commitment to 40K despite my love of both IPs. Although my on ramp into the hobby does not fit the current generation of hobbyists, it seems my spending habits fall into the theories you have presented.

[@plantnerdsa]

So my hobby started very differently. I bought mantic dwarves to make a fantasy themed chess board. Then moved province and made some friends that introduced me to DnD. Through that I discovered wargaming and started with Malifaux. I have bought many GW armies. But I have sold alot as well. Mainly playing Infinity, Malifaux and Bushido. And now Mk4 Warmachine. (Love to see some content Ash😅). Friend printed a old world army but haven't played GW game in over a year

[@Grithertime]

As to Infinity, they are a great company, I got involved a year ago and a great game, and great support, free app for army building of all factions and free rules app. The miniatures are sometimes frustrating as you cannot find a certain mini but you can easily substitute another mini that catches your fancy.

[@liquiddude9855]

Disagre Infinity is just not fun, The models are a mess to glue , they release very slow and not what people want and the community is like a cult were you cant speak even the slightest critic.

[@Grithertime]

I trash their miniatures all the time to my group. The older sculpts are great looking but the execution for assembly is garbage. Siocast/unicool or whatever it is called alternative is great. They are a small company with limited runs. I get that and accept it. The miniatures are getting better but I don't think they have the market share or the money to invest in plastics for their stuff, yet. @@liquiddude9855

[@orkybob]

Loved the conversation. I love Warhammer, it was my first tabletop miniatures game and my friends and I got into WHFB because we played a lot of Warcraft 2 and 3. I have to agree though, that MCP is probably the best game I've ever played, and it feels exactly like what you're playing, I hope Atomic Mass keeps doing awesome with this game.

[@jamiehall814]

I've seen more than a few FLGSs go through cycles of which game ranges they stock - GW games tend to be the only constants. What's interesting though is that when asked why a specific system is no longer stocked it's a variant of the same response "not selling". Getting people into other game systems has always been difficult, there's more than a few who are GW products only and see other rule systems/models as inferior, even disdainfully so.

[@jheu781]

Mos Def Black on Both Sides in the background. Great taste man.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

Mighty Mos is pretty inspirational as an artist and a human.

[@swiss86]

I’m a businessman, salesperson, and hobby nerd. I would love to try and make the business plan to run a profitable FLGS without GW or possibly even MTG.

[@swiss86]

Thinking about this further, the effort is that GW is the only company that actively engages in sales. It’s about finding PROSPECTIVE customers and aggressively pursuing them. No other company is doing this in the market. It’s all very passive. I think far too many FLGS die because they can’t get out from behind the counter and find new customers and get them into the store. I’ve heard mediocre reports about trade practices of the big players. If you can make more profitability selling non-GW ; albeit spend more work making that consumer base yourself - too many go the route of GW. Want to sell more bolt action and Mantic? Get out to every school in a 10km radius and sell it to the kids.

[@sentaijustice9207]

Thanks for the video, it's really interesting topic. Love to listen to those. Hope you do another on 3D printing, there is a lot to discuss.

[@beststonerr]

I will say it amused me that the answer to the question "are they a monopoly" seemed to be "no... but there's nothing to be done." As an American thats giving me too big to fail flashbacks.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

It's the subtle difference between a Monopoly and a Monopolistic Market. GW doesn't have any interest in acquiring or driving out of business their competitors, because they're not REALLY competitors, they're an undermarket that ultimately emulates them.

[@spamerling833]

Yeah, but you can recognize that they react to other companys. For example release of KoW 3rd and announcement of ToW. Or same naming for expansions for Blackstone Fortress: Escalation which had the same name as Deadzone expansion Escalation. Personally I think that they have an issue with Mantic especially since if you start with it you tend to stay there. On the on hand for the prices (I am sure that the starter prices for ToW which are comparable to KoW mega armies is an indicator for that) and on the other because you find the more casual and competitive sector since the rules feel like a friendly wargaming entry point for board gamers.

[@horusthewarmaster7]

Great discussion. GW has such well established IPs in the fantasy and Sci Fi genres that I doubt anyone will challenge them there anytime soon. I think if GW ever goes back into historical wargaming it would be horrifically interesting. There are several well established miniature producers already, not to mention hundreds of rule sets.

[@DMKA94]

All the old Warhammer historical rules books had third party minatures, theres no way They would do that these days. Also I don't think they could compete with Warlord, Perry, Victrix and WG Atlantic. Price and number of troops is to good from competitors

[@johnweibel1128]

I came from DnD (actually the booklet box was my first purchase), then the Avalon Hill board games. So role-playing games was my catalyst to miniatures. Then found Games Workshop (40k rogue trader, WFB, Bloodbowl, Advanced Heroquest, space hulk, dark future, advanced space crusade, mutant chronicles, WHFRP, even Railway Rivals.). Today, I only collect MESBG as $$$ allows. Done with the churn of the rest. My main miniature games are Warlord.

[@jonathandavis4819]

Great discussion.

[@ThaBenMan]

I think another interesting point that I don't believe you guys touched on is: no other company produces both miniatures games *and* paint (that I can think of anyway). And not just any paint but one of the most popular lines of paint in the hobby

[@VetBodGaming]

It's really a convenience thing as well. I do play other games as well but at the end of the day Games Workshops biggest strength is I can walk into any game store across the country and find a game of 40k relatively quickly.

[@noops9220]

Pretty sure flames of war and bolt action (the 2 biggest historical games) were written by ex GW staffers… that part of why it’s so similar

[@melonboi927]

Bolt action was written by one of the original creators of warhammer. World lord games has tons of original GW members

[@DiscourseMinis]

I suspect that this is partly a generational thing, and that younger gamers get into wargaming by being exposed to Warhammer content online - mostly lore. Then they filter into the Warhammer ecosystem, and then a tiny proportion move into the wider wargamer world for all the other companies to try and gobble up. Whether that constitutes a monopoly or not is largely immaterial, so much as the effect is still the same. The "Warhammer Hobby" seems like it's on a totally different plane from the wargaming one. Just looking at youtube, doing a video focused on warhammer can gets 10s of thousands of views, while creating content for any other will struggle to grow beyond a thousand. And funnily, even within warhammer the further you go from lore and closer to the tabletop the less views you're likely to get. It's really interesting because on the face of it the RPG market is pretty comparable, with Dungeons & Dragons being by far the largest tabletop RPG in the space, but Wizards of the Coast were never able to quite tighten their grip on the larger RPG hobby like GW did to wargaming, and now there's a thriving independent RPG market. Obviously there's plenty of wargames, but it's more of a struggle to survive, especially when so many people who buy miniatures are just doing so because they like the Warhammer IP. If Games Workshop left the wargaming space tomorrow, then I'd worry that the audience size would get lower, though games like Bolt Action, Infinity and Battletech give me hope that the hobby could still thrive and that game stores could survive.

[@euansmith3699]

Oh no, Ash has opened the Interweb Gates, and summoned the Sass Queen from her fitful slumber! It is always great to hear from the Ulster Sybil.

[@euansmith3699]

Time for a "Wall Space" skirmish game; with figure ranges battling for space on the shelves. I'd love to find out what RPG Corvus Belli was playing, and was it "Pendragon" but with a cyberpunk skin.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

We'll call the game BLOODBATH.

[@reubenmccallum3350]

It was!

[@JarottM]

I had training wheels of GW games way back when when they were full gmae and toy company (they even had recording studio ) but then i discovered WARZONE/ MC:WARZONE and never looked back. Still play it today

[@VetBodGaming]

GW also got pretty lucky that when they pulled out of the convention and tournament scene that people were so passionate about their game that they built a network of essentially free PR for them.

[@ZephyrNadir]

I got started with the 'Battle games in Middle Earth' Magazine that came out in the early 00s. Seeing the Moria goblins got me interested, and it wasnt until years later that I noticed a games workshop storefront in my area, and only when I walked in, did I notice that the LotR models were made by Games workshop.

[@semajnollissor661]

Great video. If you do ever dedicate an hour or two to talking about 3D printing of minis, I hope that you include a bit of history that touches on the forumware period that occurred immediately after GW stopped supporting Epic Armageddon. There were quite a few people that began their 3D model creation activities from that.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

We’ve already recorded a discussion of the retailer perspective on it. I’ve booked some creators in the space to talk to as well but what I’d really love is having someone making the machines come in and discuss their side too.

[@USALibertarian]

There needs to be a Pepsi to Games Workshop's Coke. GW is a pseudo monopoly and they need one large competitor along with all the small games in the market.

[@wargamesatlantic4740]

Fascinating discussion. Thank you.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

I’m glad you enjoyed it! Also your model line is going from strength to strength! Well done!

[@wargamesatlantic4740]

@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames thank you! We're trying! Really enjoyed the conversation and it's given me quite a bit to think about!

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

I hope you enjoy the next couple, I think they’re definitely something where we explore the space you guys are operating in! I’d be happy to have you on as well to talk about your corner of the marketplace!

[@voltage2773]

Battletech Mercenaries Kickstarter recently raised over $7.5 million with a $50k goal. In the top 20 of highest backed Kickstarter ever. Seems like this would indicate its popularity and should sell well at retail.

[@GuerrillaMiniatureGames]

It is selling great in retail! So much so that they keep running out of supply. They also have distro through Barnes and Noble and Target which is a HUGE visibility boost for them. That said, they still only have less than twenty full-time staff that aren’t contractors or contributors and they aren’t the IP Owners so it’s a very different market position. The actual owners of Battletech are Topps Trading Cards who have very different interests and are just getting licensing fees.

[@Kevin.Mitchell]

GW was not how I got into the hobby directly, first thing was playing D&D in 1980 (oh man I'm old) and then found the Ral Partha adventurer proper 'do not eat these' lead figures box. A few years of miniature collecting followed before the first edition of WFB came along but we'd been playing little skirmish games before that. I guess it's because of my age that GW didn't exist as the big thing - had I been born 10 years later it would have been very different I guess. Anyway, another great video, thanks!

[@jamesallan8586]

Great topic and discussion, guys. I think if GW wrapped up shop tomorrow, battletech would thrive due to a similarly developed lore background.

[@keithwinqvist7382]

I'd not thought of the Old World coming back to mop up the rank and flank game market in those terms before. Like you said they made a vacuum in 2015 games filled the space and now they're pushing them out again.

[@semajnollissor661]

I would like to see a video or series of videos that discusses the various table top war games through 'history' and the years they were popular. That all could be tied into a discussion of the genesis of the FLGS. (I'm not suggesting that you need to make such a video, just that it would be an interesting topic). I know that if you go back far enough that there was no such thing as an FLGS, and that games like D&D weren't enough of a money generator when they were new to be the sole driver behind the development of the FLGS. The oldest stores that I was aware of when I was a kid that carried tabletop war games started out as magic shops, novelty shops, comic book stores, and maybe used bookstores. I'm not even sure if there were baseball card shops around my area until the late 1980s or early 90s.

[@screenmonkey]

Dragon, and White Dwarf were originally industry wide gaming magazines, then each of the respective owners excluded the rest of the industry. Essentially placed blinders on thier consumers. Then, the owners of the hobby shops, took the easy route and carried only gamesworkshop products, and magic cards and D&D, Essentially creating a self strengthening cycle.

[@andrewelk23]

Surprised you hadn't mentioned Catalyst; who have quietly labored on the Battletech IP for a long time, and through a couple successful kickstarters have made it arguably even bigger than it was in it's early 90's heyday.

[@chaotictattoo]

Gw great miniatures worst rules(40k mostly)

[@spamerling833]

Same for Kill Team, AoS and ToW. Tried the games and they were just not good or fun.

[@brutalcities]

I can't even play 40k anymore after playing Infinity - Horus Heresy is fine though!

[@PMMagro]

Indeed. As soemone expalining rules professionally and playing loads of games GW stands out at this. But it is a miniatures game their games and the minis are great.

[@PapaWargamer]

Very interesting conversation about a hot topic. thanks. 😊

[@brutalcities]

Corvus Belli is so good, I hope their new games work out for them!

[@Dstinct]

40k 2E Starter set bought in a small comic shop in Goderich, ON.