Is Geoffrey Verity Schofield's Advice INEFFECTIVE? (Exercise Scientist Reacts)

[@GVS]

Appreciate the video my guy! Just a few comments: Rack pulls, they work the hell out of the erectors, as I'm using them very actively. While I don't really recommend doing them exactly like this, they're actually beyond failure for me in many cases as I have to go deeper into flexion to complete later reps. They're quite good for upper traps, and I've found they definitely do work the lower/mid traps and rhomboids to get the chest up at the end. So basically, erectors and mid back. If I wanted to work pure upper traps I'd probably go a high pull from the hang or power shrugs. Bodybuilding training is a bit like Tetris, it's hard to fit everything in sometimes. The deadlift is one of the most compound movements out there, and I do think that differences in style can have massive differences in what gets trained. I've always deadlifted with a lot of back, and so that's what gets trained, for me. Would be interesting to try a machine that allows for more range of motion for the erectors, unfortunately I don't have access to one. Arnold press, if I had to choose between a normal seated dumbbell press and these, I'd go normal, but I do find that it's a nice variation and does work in the upper back enough to justify it's existence. Pullovers, agree somewhat about feel. Probably boils down to experience level, if I feel something working, I can tell if it's actually doing something or just sensation. Whereas a beginner can't assess things quite as well. But yea, they're good overall...and can definitely feel more triceps or chest or abs or lats if I change the grip or execution a bit, which might explain why different people have different opinions on this one. EMG tends to bias numbers in favor of contraction focused lifts so it's not surprising that this one gets overlooked. Machine squats, sounds like we're fully in agreement here. Interestingly, after doing a lot of very quad dominant variations of the squat pattern, my form has changed a lot on barbell variations so that they're more quad dominant as well. Side bends, I didn't know the obliques were also worked with spinal flexion, interesting! I included these mostly because I have seen fearmongering around them, and they helped me rehab my QL, but you're right in that it's hard to quantify if or how much they might prevent or reduce the risk of injury. I'll try to be more careful with my wording in the future! Again thanks for your takes on this, and keep up the good work!

[@slee2695]

I swear if all the natties sat down and talked in person they would agree on 95% of topics...they make videos on the 5% they disagree on for views (everyone does this)

[@weirdo3116]

@@slee2695 well i mean most content creators or even people im general do this. At least from what I've seen

[@realbillnye]

Agree with almost all of this. I don't care what an exercise scientist says, rack pulls give me a crazy soreness that nothing else does, including rows

[@NorthenTasawwuf]

@GVS both John Meadows and Steve Shaw are big proponents of varieties of rack/block pulls (as are many into strongman/powerlifting) - Meadows had specifically a pyramiding variation for back work and lats for bodybuilding. Therefore I do variations to switch out the deadlift from time to time and it helps improving my deadlift.

[@ew-zd1th]

Geoff, you dont need a erector machine, just do seated good morning with dynamic erector movement a.k.a the john meadows sitting good morning

[@leoerus]

I like bro science leaning stuff because it actually gets me big.

[@atlaspowershrugged]

In fairness, the way gvs does the rack pull is basically all spinal flexion. Most folks keep their backs straight and just use leg drive to lock out.

[@GVS]

Yep, not quite isolation but basically as much erector/midback as possible.

[@CAPNBACK]

It does traps as well as they are in a stretch position

[@beburs]

Beta orbiter

[@Chr.Saint-Michael]

Yeah but whats the point if you go through such little range of motion especially the strech at the bottom would be way better if you did a 90 degree back extension sitting on a bench. Way less fatigue on your body and getting the job of growing spinal erectors done better. Also if you want bigger traps i think a shrug would simply be better in pretty much every way

[@JuliusCaesar103]

Gvs is the man, look forward to this

[@nmnate]

In my opinion the Arnold press basically just rotates the head of the dumbbell in a way that it doesn't tend to run into your shoulder at the bottom (similar to a neutral grip). If you're used to doing only the upper part of the DB press, the bottom is going to feel way different. A lot of bros barely get the dumbbell head below their ears... 😅

[@nomongosinthaworld]

Yup, it just makes it easier to achieve a full stretch on the front delt and for some people it’s simply easiest to press in the angle the Arnold press allows for. If you do them „correctly“ you also get a significant amount of shoulder abduction aka side delt involvement and traps. You don’t really lose any stability from the rotational aspect either, that’s just optimal bro dogma

[@soots-stayingoutofthespotl5495]

Step 1: look at GVS's physique. Step 2: tell me that he's doing it all wrong. I'm beginning to tire of the science guys tbh.

[@Aniviper]

Time stamp for points: 2:26 - Rack Pull - Not sure what you really training with Rack Pull. Much better exercises that are more effective. Adds nothing new to hypertrophy. 10:49 - Arnold Press - Not big difference to regular traditional seated dumbbell press. Changing rotation of hand don’t really add anything new and doesn’t really work the rear dealt. 12:54 - Dumbbell Pullover - Good exercise, but different conclusions than GVS. Milo believes its best Lat Exercise. Unlike GVS, you should not rely on feel of muscle. A lot of movements where top squeeze may feel amazing, but doesn’t mean it provides maximum growth stimulus. Feeling is weak correlation. 19:11 - Machine Squat - Very effective to minimize loading on spine and higher rep ranges. 23:10 - Side Bends - Exercise does not need to be included, but it will work it. Any movement that trains ab muscles will also train obliques reasonably well. Also regarding pain/injury, while GVS doesn’t fearmonger exercise, he goes into the opposite end where he makes claims without any evidence. Training an exercise that hurts you doesn’t bulletproof you or prevent injuries. There are not scientific evidence to back up that claim. Generally, I'm actually surprised he gave GVS 8/10, especially when it seems like Milo just disagrees with 4/5 exercises. It seems like there was a lot of bro science stuff said in GVS's video. Great work as always Doc!

[@princerak8881]

bro stuff better than nerd stuff

[@smartfellaandfartsmella3394]

If you haven't check out GVS's stuff, he says a lot of good stuff. This video was definitely more of a controversial one.

[@evangaylor]

🤓

[@arnavsolanki5193]

GVS is great. Also, I gotta to credit your videos too, the quality has been through the roof and your critique videos have become better than ever! Keep it up

[@zakazan8561]

I always found it odd that people would extol exercises like the deadlift or in this case, rack pulls, for back hypertrophy when these exercises are just isometric holds. What these people may be getting from these movements may not actually be from the back, but from the insane amount of bracing that is required to fully stabilize these movements, leading to more efficiency in movements that actually do grow the back optimally. What these movements are doing is pretty much the same thing that something like a plank does for people. You are teaching your entire core and back to work together and you are successfully stimulating this movement pattern with enough weight to get some muscle building benefits out of it as well. The thing is, for building good bracing and core stability, there are many exercises specific to that you can do that will train your core much more effectively without as much fatigue, and I agree that just holding a weight in front of you for time is going to lead to as much gains if not better gains for your back than doing deadlifts or rack pulls. If you introduce spinal flexion into rack pulls or deadlifts, you are lifting very dangerously because the compressive force placed on the spine combined with resisted flexion will cause a disc herniation if you continue to do it, and will generally delineate the tough outer crust of the disc, which will lead to degenerative changes in the spine over time, which can predispose it to permanent damage. Excessive flexion will tend to cause herniation and conversely, excessive extension will cause spondylosis if you're lucky, spondylolisthesis if you're not. Functional fitness gets a lot of hate, especially by youtube fitness influencers, but the notion that the deadlift or rackpull give any back gains is essentially rooted in the concepts behind functional fitness. Exercises like weighted carries or turkish get ups or core isometric holds will lead to a fitness level that is sort of beyond the movement itself and transfers very well to other movements and the activities of daily living. I just find it interesting that on one hand someone will insult a thing yet on the other utilize its concepts for massive gains. Like Stuart McGill says, proximal stiffness (or stability) leads to distal athleticism. A science based approach is very useful because it attempts to remove dogma and stigma and it rigorously tests what is beneficial and what is not, disregarding any sort of preconceived notions of efficacy. The soreness in the rear delt area after doing an arnold press can be the subscapularis muscle due to the minimal internal rotation caused by moving the wrist during the movement, which will eccentrically load the subscapularis muscle. The subscapularis is innervated by the subscapular nerve, and the axillary nerve, which innervates the posterior delt, are both branches of the posterior cord so pain may be able to radiate to the posterior delt as the nerve is downstream from the subscapularis nerve or it can just be a proprioceptive problem As far as the side bends go, a side plank clamshell is the closed chain alternative to them, which should be safer. The problem with side bends is again, loaded flexion and possible disc herniation along with the large range of motion. Just google lateral disc herniation and revel in the massive amount of horror you uncover as a lateral disc herniation is far more serious than a posterior disc herniation which is what is usually seen. While the side bend does work the obliques, GVS is right here in that it's an exercise you can do for your QL. Side plank clamshells will work the QL in a small range of motion, and suitcase carries will work the QL isometrically. All my knowledge of spinal damage, back pain, and physical therapy tells me to avoid side bends.

[@gokukakarot1855]

Jay Cutler Alberto Nunez Eric Helms Old School Ronnie Coleman

[@C0d0ps]

Eric is a smart dude. I like him.

[@names116]

Still would like to see you do a video on John Meadows and his 4 phases of Mountain Dog Training. Thanks for covering Geoff though!

[@atlaspowershrugged]

On side bends, dude cmon, in what joint is it beneficial to exclusively train one function while completely ignoring others? I don't think its a huge stretch to assume bending to the side occasionally is probably good for joint health.

[@kapoioBCS]

Heavy side bends are the goat 🐐, people who fear monger them are very funny 😂

[@rinkuhero]

most exercises are dangerous if you go too heavy too fast, and are fine if you slowly progress in weight over time and start light. i think it's just that with side bends, people want to progress fast and don't want to start light and progress slowly. lu raises are another example, people always say they are dangerous, but that's because they try to do as much on them as they can lateral raise, when you need to do less. starting a lu raise with just 2.5 lb plates in each hand is a good idea, but then you can build up over a few years to reach 25 lb plates after a few years.

[@WolfCoaching]

Don’t get me wrong - totally fine to do side bends. But as far as yield, it’s relatively far down the priority list IMO. Maybe around the same as direct upper trap work in terms of priority

[@weirdo3116]

@@kapoioBCS i don't think anyone was doing that here.

[@kapoioBCS]

@@weirdo3116 i know, i speak in general

[@SamC_182]

The rack pull has been effective for my upper traps more than any shrug ever has been & that's what I use it for, plus they're very enjoyable. Edit: I agree with GVS. I think it does train the entire back quite decently to a certain extent. I wouldn't say it's the #1 go to movement for overall back development, however I will say after a few years of training my back through all types of horizontal rows, vertical pulls, and hinges - it was when I added rack pulls above the knee that added that turtle shell type of appearance to my back that all those other movements didn't. So from my own experience, it's definitely a lift worth giving a try if you're intermediate and just need that cherry on top for your back as far aesthetics go.

[@NorthenTasawwuf]

Meadows had a good take on racks for bodybuilding as a starter for an entire back day.

[@ew-zd1th]

Interesting. What does you mean eith turtle shell? Which muscle exactly do you think has grown from rack pull

[@SamC_182]

@@ew-zd1th the main muscle that has grown is the traps, but the lats, the teres, the erectors have all grown and gotten more thickness in detail which kind of makes it appear like a turtle shell

[@ew-zd1th]

@@SamC_182 OK very interesting maybe i will try

[@GameZero2]

Kind of a dumb question, should I add the rack pulls in back days or leg days, and would you do it start of a workout or somewhere in the middle?

[@schmorbraten7594]

I would like to see what happens if @WolfCoaching agrees to do rack pulls in the @GVS style, with a lot of spinal flexion, and high reps until failure. Do it for a few weeks. Do it as one of the first exercises, twice a week. And then see what that ACTUALLY does to your upper back muscles, instead of just having a (valid) theoretical approach. GVS is all about actual experience, and actual results, even if that sometimes goes against traditional hypertrophy wisdom / science. Or even better, train together, make some videos together. I know, China, the distance, ...

[@Chr.Saint-Michael]

I saw better results with shrugs personally i did both a long time and since i reintroduced shrugs i got a lot bigger upper traps

[@marley720]

I disagree with injury prevention for the side bend. It is one of the only movements that trains the ql, and strengthening it would reduce injury risk if you get out of position on a lift like a deadlift

[@gamesong6600]

I believe ql can be trained very effectively with farmers carry also I believe it's called suitcase carry which looks like RDL but with weight in only one hand on the side, much better overall from risk to reward perspective than side bends😊

[@marley720]

@@gamesong6600 That definitely is an option, and if you believe that loading spinal movement is dangerous than it is better. I personally think that as long as you start reasonably light and train with good form that it is safe to do. I recently strained my QL and doing side bends have gotten rid of the pain.

[@gamesong6600]

@@marley720 yes I do think spinal loading is dangerous. Lot of bodybuilding experts will disagree but there are certain body parts that do not adapt to stimulus, do not heal once damaged spine is one such body part. It's made up of sheets of membranes stacked and each time some membranes get damaged when loaded. From birth to death the we only lose those membranes and by the time we notice any pain or discomfort it's already too late.

[@kaveus]

I think you should review Eric Bugenhagen, it would be interesting

[@mikolajakubiec666]

Fraud 'doctor' spewing bullshit VS clueless meathead

[@jacobi-vision3249]

Oh geez that’d be interesting 😂

[@GVS]

+1, that would be wild

[@slee2695]

His fanboys would go ham on Milo

[@freddym6643]

Think Milo only deals with human anatomy

[@RobertSmith-xp1mg]

You should do a best exercises for abs hypertrophy video. You should also include not just the rectus abdominis but the other parts of the abs. Maybe even include the hip flexors if you can train them both by leg raises or something.

[@faithnfitnessguykk9569]

Thanks for addressing the pullover segment the way you did. I got confused by a bio mechanics influencer on this who was critiquing your recommendation of it and your doctoral approach as well. Hat tip to Schofield for the feel reference with it. Though not science, "feel" intuitively says a lot about what's going on there IMO.

[@mikolajakubiec666]

his take is absolutely wrong though. Just a bunch fucking reverse burden of proof silliness.

[@leinekenugelvondoofenfocke1002]

Okay bro, the lats assist the erectors in preventing flexion. There is just a technician barrier to entry that comes before you can get to that. You can just get away with using your erectors for all of it if you don't know how to tighten your lats in that way. Imagine how hard it would be to bend forward if your lats were made of steel. Now, this probably isn't as much of a hypertrophic stimulus as a row or a pull up, but it wakes the lats up for what comes next in the workout. That load is provocative. This is also the reason every strong human you've ever looked up to swear by the bent over row. When you are using the lats to extend the humorous while also using them to prevent flexion, you really learn to use them to prevent flexion, and that is like growing an extra pair of erectors. Not to mention the lower traps are attached to the spine, they are stabilizing too. So yeah, you are working the whole back. This probably belongs more in strength world than hypertrophy world, and it isn't something everyone can get alot out of, but it isn't as simple as you are making it out to be.

[@Chr.Saint-Michael]

You wont grow anything other than upper traps and spinal erectors from rack pulls and these bot very well

[@moses9647]

I think things like a rack pull are where bro science has a place in training. If youre racking 4 plates for reps and dont feel your whole back light up im not sure what youre doing. Its meant to be overloaded like a Kroc row

[@dustinirwin1]

FWIW, I believe the DL is the best upper back exercise for hypertrophy. And strength. So I’m with GVS on this. And there are plenty of others who agree, such as Larry Wheels.

[@sakafousi]

The only exercise that makes my back sore is RDL. How can you explain this? My split is ppl and I do row/high row/lat pull down in my pull day I do rdls in my leg day. I literally never get sore after a pull day. My lats are sore (sometimes) after leg day

[@kapoioBCS]

Same. I never get sore etc from lat or upper back exercises, but heavy deadlifts, RDLs, snatch grip dl etc always make me sore both in traps, upper back and lats

[@ew-zd1th]

Same. Biggest Doms in my traps midback from rdl. I Wonder If this maybe grow more muscle than normal Back movements?

[@zacharylaschober]

likely a relatively novel stimulus compared to the deeper training history of pulls you have. As well, isometrics above ~50% of mvc occlude bloodflow, meaning anything sufficiently hard has high metabolite sequestration since the muscle does not get to change length and therefore force an exchange of blood. May just be experiencing fatigue which comes from isometric yielding exercises. As someone who works with specialized athletes (climbers), we have to chat about how fatigue in less trained parts of the body (like introducing a heavy press) may affect time in sport and how stimulus in especially vertical pulls may not have the same "symptoms". Aside, plenty of differences between people and intention and position in exercises.

[@kapoioBCS]

@@zacharylaschober nope, I deadlift and RDL way more time and with similar volume to pulls. The novice stimulus should be all pull movements..

[@sakafousi]

@@zacharylaschober so the next question is : Those isometrics holds that occlude blood flow and metobolites etc are any good for hypertrophy or strength? If yes then how do they compare with concentric movements?

[@gillpeakperformance4945]

I consider below the knee rack pulls (no higher than tibial tuberosity) to be a viable deadlift assistance exercise in a similar manner as block pulls. Neither are ideal for hypertrophy goals, but they can increase hip extension and isometric trunk extension strength in a manner that transfers to deadlift performance, particularly for lifters who have a difficult time recovering from pulling from the floor frequently.

[@RobertKorzeniowski830]

you dont get one thing no one do this guy Geoffrey train insaine hard he will get gains no matter what he do just look at his tranings)

[@kapoioBCS]

GVS has amazing genetics, especially arms/traps etc

[@rinkuhero]

@@kapoioBCS if you look at old photos of him when he was skinny he didn't have very good traps or arms though. i think it's just that taller people tend to have good triceps due to being tricep dominant due to having such long arms. most tall lifters have great traps and triceps, but only so-so everything else. and he's like 6'1 or something.

[@slee2695]

@rinkuhero you cant judge his runner's physique...he blew up his 1st year of training

[@bermysanders9278]

@@rinkuhero I dunno man im 6'ft 2 and my tricep insertions aint nothing like geoffs

[@Sonic_1000]

He looks insane and knows his stuff. You need zero PhD's or certs to get in elite shape.

[@bermysanders9278]

You should do one on Bald Omni-Man!

[@azulsimmons1040]

I'd still love to see what a constant tension deadlift does for the back like Yates used do where he never touched the floor, but wasn't doing a Romanian. The way Dorian did his deadlifts made me think of the pumping stretched range bench press where you don't lockout and stay in a range that makes you feel the weight the entire time you're doing it.

[@nicholasfevelo3041]

It maybe that very heavy weights counteract the less than optimal range of motion

[@seaofseeof]

I used to be subscribed to his channel and I often agree with his general approach to lifting, but when it comes to specific prescriptions and recommendations, I feel like he often fails to ask himself "compared to what?" The majority of lifts that involve the target muscle will get you your desired results when you have the most important factors within your control on lock (time, consistency, effort, progression). But to me it's never a question of if a lift will work, but how well it works compared to the alternatives. If I can get the same desired effect as the recommend lift, but better, then I will opt for the better alternative and recommend that one instead. He's correct in stating, though, that with time being a limiting factor, subbing two exercises that target two different muscles optimally with a single exercise that works those same muscles sub-optimally is a reasonable time-saving tactic until you can focus on them. But I feel like he can often be hand-wavey, or work backwards on specific exercises if he just happens to enjoy them "I like this exercise, therefore it's as good as the alternative." My gym has a leg press and a smith machine. I still do barbell squats on one day and I do dropsets on the leg press on another day (time-saving tactic -- I do lots of sets on a day). I would love to optimize my quad development further by doing smith machine squats instead of barbell squats. But I'm not because I enjoy high bar squats. I have no reasoning for that beyond "I enjoy it" and I don't care that I'm making a (possibly small, maybe larger) trade-off there. But I feel like GVS often plays up the efficacy of a movement based on his own personal enjoyment, working backwards to justify it. But trade-offs are fine, just be honest about them. People rarely if ever recommend against a movement because it "doesn't work", they usually recommend against it because it's just not good compared to the alternatives.

[@adamdavis4928]

Yeah got to kind of agree with you. I did like him initially as well but sometimes he does exactly what you say. An example for me is his take on cutting should be done just very fast and aggressive so you can quickly finish your cut and get back to training more optimally at maintenance/surplus. While I think most people would all love cuts to go by fast the reality is that being too aggressive makes them unsustainable or often unmanageable once you get off the cut because then people will start overeating again and have a unhealthy relationship with food.

[@Nostalgiaforinfi]

Power shrugs and rack pulls work great for traps.

[@bermysanders9278]

QL explanation was super interesting!

[@CruelEvisceration]

I dont rack pull but if i did heres how I'd do it Below the knee for a small percentage over full deadlift working weight maybe 5-20%, I'd want it to feel about the same as a full deadlift just with more weight Above the knee for a small percentage over the below the knee working weight again maybe 5-20% This allows for an overload over regular deadlifts so they'll feel easier afterwards For example if you're max deadlift is 200kg your top work set be 3-10 reps at 160kg, maybe you're getting 7s normally so you'd hit a set of 5, then go up to 180kg pull it from the rack below the knee for 3-5 hard/comfortable set, the 200 above the knee 3-5 reps again hard/comfortable, now we take the bar back to the floor for 140-180kg smash it it's gonna feel light realtive to the rack pulls

[@IntelligentProbe]

You should do a video on your books... I see 2 in the video... I'd love to hear your thoughts about those and any others you have.

[@joseppebatman]

Dr Milo wolf is your beard natty

[@WolfCoaching]

I don't mean to shatter dreams...

[@albertonunez3331]

I’m his minoxidil source

[@valentinocozzi]

This is literally the meme Virgin science based lifter Vs Chad

[@sizwemagubane8381]

There are two types of cornflakes, Kelloggs cornflakes and the unlabeled ones that literally smell like a science experiment when you open them😂. This is the issue with being purely science based, your training loses a lot of the enjoyment factor that you getting from sometimes just going with the feel and doing "dumb" stuff. Broing out gives your program/workout it's own identity and it doesnt feel generic. And that is why the bro's will almost always be more jacked, enjoyment is what keeps you in the gym and driven all year long

[@slee2695]

Show physique

[@slee2695]

Show physique

[@sizwemagubane8381]

@@slee2695 How exactly will that work?😂 You want me to dm you a pic of my physique, that is insane. I can however refer you to the channels of the "natty bros" i make mention off who post their physiques on social media: TNF, Geoffrey Verity Schofield, Basement bodybuilding, Bald Omni Man, Kason Gringer, Natural Hypertrophy, Alex Leonidas, pick your pick brother

[@PXO005]

Sounds like you’re taking science based lifters almost as a personal insult. I lift science based. But i don’t look at bros who do stupid lifts and is big ; and make incoherent conclusions that someone with less experience might, that they’re on steroids or that they just have great genetics. You can do a lot of stuff in the gym that is a complete waste of time and still get jacked, i agree. I do dumbell overhead press on top of multiple chest sessions a week all including heavy bench pressing, because i enjoy dumbell presses, and yes that in the long term improves adherence, but that doesn’t mean someone cant enjoy the so called “optimal” exercises. Maybe someone enjoys the process of going to failure itself(in a non masochistic way?) and that’s what drives them. “Science based” lifting does not mean what you think it means. Science doesn’t always mean labs and experiments. It can also mean going where the evidence leads you; even if the evidence is largely experiential.

[@sizwemagubane8381]

@@PXO005 It is 1000% a me thing my guy, pure science based lifting is a joke to me, because for me it is just not what weightlifting is supposed to be, it certainly isn't what i fell in love with

[@JT-yx7vf]

I never expected to see you covering GVS

[@WiecznieNieNasycony]

Bro science wins in most cases and more than 70% of look like they lift unlike scientists😁😁 bros are always jack and swole

[@WolfCoaching]

PENCILNECK SCIENTISTS AMIRITE

[@grizzly_bear_A]

@@WolfCoaching see a lot of science base people in gyms who do cable flys with 20 lbs for 3 years and they look the same gymbros throw 405 bars on their chests and have pecs like a tank

[@debaronAZK]

@@grizzly_bear_A and you also see people with no clue what they're doing throwing 2-3 plates on the bar when they would only be able to handle one going full ROM it's easy to cherry pick but that does not a good argument make

[@Gargarks]

I'm really curious where these pencil necked science lifters are that everyone keeps referencing. Every single one I follow or am aware of is pretty fucking jacked.

[@RealManOP]

@@debaronAZK show your picture you pencil necked boy and this guy with 3 -lates on gym that dont look like they lift

[@Bayseball.13]

argument against your rack pull point, the reason you'd do that over an isometric hold is similar to the reason you would do a press based movement over a fly for your chest. its not a terrible thing for other muscles to be worked, even if its suboptimally. what do you believe would be better for growth: an iliac lat pulldown for the lats, and an iso hold which works exclusively the traps, as opposed to an exercise which targets a very high amount of lats but not 100%, like a pull down or pull up, and then a rack pull for the upper traps. im choosing the second option, because its ok to work certain muscle groups suboptimally in an exercise when they are not the main focus, its definitely better than not working them at all. some amount of glute and erector growth will take place in a rack pull, and emg based research shows that mid traps work harder at further degrees of hip flexion for stability, so rack pull does a little bit extra work for all those extra areas. thats why you do that over just an iso hold with similar. thats the biggest issue with exercise science, some people don't think on a deep level, they just say "study says long length better" but then ignore the fact staring them in the face that short ranges of motion still helps more than nothing. i'd rather train a second muscle suboptimally in a trap based exercise than not as all as long as the trap stimulus is the same. it just makes more sense when thinking logically.

[@duncandrake1676]

6:30 Buganhagen gonna be pissed when he hears this😊

[@warrenhenning8064]

Can you comment on remarks that certain muscle groups don't benefit from stretch-mediated hypertrophy? Something about sarcomeres?

[@mikolajakubiec666]

he obviously won't do that since that would ruin his whole shtick He pulled the claim that all muscles can expierience SMH or even that they benefit from lengthened partials out of his ass.

[@vonclarktheshark2279]

bro science is just better

[@100KGNatty]

A mix of both is best

[@AshleyMeloche]

Ok, tell me why GVS so much more Jacked than this guy?

[@tribunaldude]

Loaded carries=isometric loading, so according to our science brahs should not provide much hypertrophy benefit. However, strongman and strength coaches used to swear by these for general back thickness" before the evidence based bros took over YT. Compare the back and thickness of powerlifters turned bodybuilders with that of lifetime bbers (yes not much evidence, only anecdotes) heck a lifetime natural who doesnt even care about hypertrophy (KYRIAKOS GRIZZLY. Yes comically high bodyfat but with a massive back) with say that of someone who specifically trains and lives for hypertrophy (Brad Schoenfeld)

[@Ilham.69]

Aren't loaded carries just weighted stretches?

[@michaelanthony4750]

Grizzly isn't natty

[@slee2695]

Loaded carries are stretched position lmao

[@tribunaldude]

@@slee2695 depending on the carry yes. Most are in the stretched position. But still isometric.

[@Ilham.69]

@@michaelanthony4750 wtf are you on

[@StephenMarkTurner]

Hard not to think of Canadian sitcom "Corner Gas" where Brent says Nice Rack! Yup, they were looking at some shelving.

[@alik5972]

Hey Milo, what's your take on power shrugs?

[@thsstphok7937]

Same question. I want to know if power shrugs overload the streteched position with the momentum making it better for hypertrophy

[@chonkeboi]

@@thsstphok7937through anecdote, most people believe it’s incredibly good, some naturals say it’s the best trap exercise. Idk if that’s what you want to hear tho.

[@cold_servo_pie]

He prefers seated shrugs with 5kg dumbbells

[@CAPNBACK]

@@cold_servo_pieFacts

[@Chr.Saint-Michael]

​@@cold_servo_pieyeah there is no point in doing a movement for upper traps and then using every muscle other than the targeted muscle to ego lift for 0 gains

[@SwoleTown]

Rack pulls are valuable.. I'd like to see him pull a couple inches deeper though. By virtue of sheer loading they have value.. you can pull very heavy on a rack pull and subject the Traps (and erectors) to a ton of tension, not to mention the Lats as well, albeit in a more isometric fashion. I also feel a fair amount of Glutes when I do high rep rack pulls, which could be because I'm a taller lifter, but knock out a heavy set of 12-15 reps on a rack pull.. absolutely have seen these, along with some high pulls and farmer carries, considerably thicken up my Back and Traps, and even neck.

[@SwoleTown]

Also, Pullovers as well have a ton of value.. even more so if you do PJR pullovers, purposely pulling the Triceps in towards the top which can provide a great way to "overload" them. PJR Pullovers are one of my favorite Triceps exercises.

[@7faeh]

Great video Milo. Did you catch the part where he said "some people might feel more Rear Delts," regarding the Pullovers. Do Pullovers work the Rear Delts???

[@Chr.Saint-Michael]

No

[@nicholasfevelo3041]

Long live the bros

[@slee2695]

I'm tall..i have to listen to tall guys like Milo and GVS Im not taking advice from manlets like 90% of youtubers

[@Bloozguy]

He's got the results. That's all the science I need. 😍

[@kevingriffith677]

Then why are you here? And the point is that you could get better results with better exercises. I can guarantee you a rack pull has played very little impact on any results he's achieved.

[@Bloozguy]

@@kevingriffith677 Name all of the top bodybuilders/power- lifters etc that got that way using STRICTLY science based exercises? Go ahead... bring on the list. I'm here to see what the latest 12 week muscle building science claims prove, lol. All anyone needs to do, is look at the claims made, then resolve that with the physique presenting it.....GVS has the results. Seems to me, Dr. Wolf should be taking some tips from him. 😉

[@GVS]

@@kevingriffith677 "I can guarantee you a rack pull has played very little impact on any results he's achieved." Big statement, which I'd disagree with. And I guarantee I have a lot more info on the topic...because....well.... I'm me.

[@didntchoosethis]

having timestamps on these videos would be so nice if u could get someone to do them.

[@WolfCoaching]

If the channel was paying the bills, I would :( If you keep supporting I should become able to, though!

[@ProphetFear]

@@WolfCoaching Ironic considering who was posting timestamps for the RP webinar for years lol

[@gamingtube5217]

​@@ProphetFearDang it, I just checked their webinars and you are right, it was Milo.

[@gutsdriven.1711]

Thank you 🙏🏽

[@WolfCoaching]

You're very welcome

[@omarkennedy7056]

He didn't say he feels it in his lats when he does db pullovers but rather he feels the stretch in his lats. That's a good thing

[@user-ii7xc1ry3x]

@react oh Jesus, the editor has been around the YT sphere for a while, haven't see anyone mentioning that in YEARS lol

[@LouisSerieusement]

super interesting video !

[@RyeCA]

Gym Bro stuff does not not work, it might just not be as optimal as other stuff. But just training regularly and getting enough food/good amount of sleep will get you there sooner or later

[@amorfati4927]

This is the thing a lot of people don’t realize when they watch all this stuff and they get caught up one way or another. Most of the “science based” community, if you ACTUALLY listen to them, they often use the word MAY CAUSE or MAY LEAD to better growth. If they talk about percentages of potential better growth I’m pretty sure it’s in the single digit percentages. Truth of the matter is… if you work each body part out at least once a week and from week to week for the majority of your weeks you’re progressively overloading (one more rep, more weight, another set… knowing that sooner or later your body will de-load for you if you don’t do it yourself and what not) with decent to good technique on movements… you’re going to be just fine and truthfully ahead of 90% of the world. Also, don’t have a complete shit diet.

[@ew-zd1th]

​@@amorfati4927maybe your right but there are Some people how have gained better even after 15-21 years of Training with stuff Like lenghtend partials (Bryan Bornstein) or high frequency Delt lat calfes specialisation (Eric Helms)

[@chonkeboi]

I doubt it, you have to actually make sure you’re doing almost everything right to get to Geoffrey’s level. But just training can get you really far, just not as far as the really jacked natties.

[@Fleimas]

Lately I have been hearing from multiple influencers that deadlifts are not a good upper back exercise. But both based on my experience both logically don't add up in my head. The starting position of deadlift is very close to the bottom of bent over row , but just the stretch portion with way bigger load then you can use for bent over rows. How is that not a similar effect to lengthened partials that you advocate so much ?

[@lucascanosa3913]

Because not all muscles benefit from SMH(stretch mediated hypertrophy) So deadlifts don't target the traps and lats very effectively, they do produce force because they are stabilisers and so they're worked very little.

[@FrogmortonHotchkiss]

I agree. It's like a brief, massively overloaded, stretched, isometric bent-over row with every rep. And deads give me trap & rhomboid DOMS like nothing else. What argument could possibly carry more weight than this? My DOMS are psychosomatic because I believe in deads so much??

[@Fleimas]

@@FrogmortonHotchkiss Agree, after deadlifts next day my upper back feels slightly sore, just as much as from rows.

[@Fleimas]

@@lucascanosa3913 Back is one of those muscles that benefit from it, that's pretty much universally agreed. Your second sentence just states the thing I am skeptical of without any arguments why it is or not true.

[@FrogmortonHotchkiss]

@@Fleimas It's even more dramatic for me: I don't tend to notice trap DOMS from anything other than deads, and I love rows and Arnold presses.

[@5milemacc737]

idc if the pullover works chest or lats bc I want huge chest and lats, hell yea.

[@baronmeduse]

The claim that a deadlift sticking point is always lower down is just false. I did competitive powerlifting for 17 years and both my own lifts and those of others often failed (if they did) above the knee and it was sometimes a grip issue more than a back or leg issue. Straightening up in a heavy deadlift is a hard task because after the knee you've spent a ton of explosive energy already. To verify this all it takes is to go around YT looking at heavy DLs and see how slow people are at straightening up.

[@neptuneai8168]

This guy claims he is scienced-based and logical but then has some pretty obvious misunderstands about these movements. Rack pulls don't work the traps because you are pulling perpendicularly to the line of force? Unless you are doing your rack pulls completely upright (which would make it a shitty quarter squat not even a hinge), you are obviously using the upper back muscles, against the weight, to retract the scapula.

[@shawnpatten6515]

GVS is my favorite Chinese communist.

[@crsh4842]

GVS is amazing

[@dory_m78]

I like doing pullovers with the ezy bar rather than dumbell( I find the dumbell is hardier to stabilize) Question is the ezy bar just as effective as the dumbells?

[@Chr.Saint-Michael]

Yes as long as you go as deep as possible at the bottom other than that great exerciese

[@dory_m78]

@@Chr.Saint-Michael thank you

[@patrickbronson5117]

Jeff’s the people’s champ

[@meowchinchilla4009]

This one gonna be interesting

[@WolfCoaching]

Thank you for tuning in!

[@Flahtort]

For people, who thinks that deadlifts are great for erectors. Try 45 degree bench back extension (with full range of motion for the lower back) or some sort of other "rounded back" movement like Jefferson curl or barbell/cable flexion row. The same as regular, but with high degree of lower back flexion. You will be potentially surprized how hard it is to even stand or sit after set to the failure on that ones.

[@GVS]

Yep have done all of those, especially the back extensions, which I've done for many years. Definitely a different feeling but there's also something to be said for heavier weight as well. They do complement each other well.

[@AdrianVisan]

Casually throwing in that 585 pound deadlift 😁

[@5milemacc737]

I also let my ass come off the pad during machine squats, he explained what I was thinking and I'd never even consciously thought about it hah. Same as leg press, you can stretch ur quads more that way.

[@jesustorres4725]

@Milo Wolf, how is that app coming along?

[@doudline2662]

magnificent facial pilosity

[@googlymooglyman]

Why do you show your phone and tap it on camera sometimes in your videos

[@ew-zd1th]

Whats the difference betwenn a rack pull from the knee or little under compared to a rdl?

[@BigBADSTUFF69]

with an RDL you should be bending over until you feel the stretch, for me that is like 3 inches from the ground so setting up a rack pull would never get that deep. The rack pull is purposefully skipping the elongated phase of the movement

[@poser3287]

Love GVS!

[@KIKKAAA685]

Gym-bro=bad control technique and put as much weight as possible on the bar and they are as big as me practice and theory are two different things and most Scientist basee who look like they lift in the beginning they train like a gymbro build muscles then they swap to be Scientist)

[@ew-zd1th]

Whats your Thought on seated good mornings with dynamic lower back mivement? For the erectors

[@CaptChilly]

I personally find that the stretch emphasis tend to be on the hips/adductors in this movement. I do get a killer erector stretch from jefferson curls though!

[@CAPNBACK]

Science-based lifters are always smaller than the guy they’re talking about. Just leaving this here.

[@Chr.Saint-Michael]

Yeah because they dont train hard enough for some reason. The science say train close or all the way to failure

[@spurzo-thespiralspacewolf8916]

Very true

[@naveensundar0]

They don't use roids ?

[@CAPNBACK]

@@naveensundar0 They are over-focusing on details that are not significant, always running after the last study, but training « optimally » is totally different for everyone. You can’t say « this way to train is the best cause this study says this ».

[@CAPNBACK]

@@naveensundar0 Also some do. Doctor Mike and his buddy he trains with is natty you think? Lol

[@lukemorris5857]

Can u do a reaction to Hypertrophy Coach?

[@AtotheK139]

GVS is the goat💪

[@tanthai3653]

I feel your videos have been bordering on using too much of the original video; in this one it seemed like 70-80% of the video was replaying GVS’s video and throwing in your relatively short (albeit useful) responses. It could be construed as a way to “take” views from the original creators, and might make your content appear to stand less valuable on its own merit in future

[@DILFDylF]

Do you know what would happen if he said go watch his video then watch this one to see my response to what he said? No one would watch this video. The idea that he's "stealing views" from a video of some dude saying 5 exercises he likes is preposterous. He plays the clip then responds to it. Are you getting money from the KZbin copyright strike system to try and normalize their nonsense?

[@yiago1]

the small science guy trying to teach big guys is always laughable

[@brucele2776]

Please speak clearly.

[@lukeharris2622]

✝️💪

[@nicholasfevelo3041]

Amen.

[@terminator2348]

I like GVS, but he makes some shit up here and there. Still a very competent lifter regardless.

[@GVS]

I wouldn't phrase is as "makes some shit up" but I'm certainly not afraid to speak my mind, even if it's not conventional wisdom or parroting what other people say.

[@terminator2348]

​@@GVSTake what I said with a huge grain of salt as even some of the best in the industry go on a limb here and there. Like I said, you're very competent and quite high on my list.

[@RaySmith1662]

Geoffrey admit that he was taking "performance-enhancing substances" for many years in the youtube video "Revealing My Game Changer For Muscle Growth (NON-NEGOCIABLE!)"

[@rokisoree]

++++++ for bro .

[@gokukakarot1855]

I’ll give you like and comment for the algorithm but I don’t care what this guy has to say. I’ll try to watch this throughout the day to get you a “view”

[@WhereArfThou]

Dr milo's traps > Gvs's traps

[@OLEDITZ]

Delusional

[@maximusX_]

all you science guys claim you know about building muscle yet are very small with no muscle mass to backup your claims

[@kapoioBCS]

Are you blind

[@slee2695]

In real life a 6'2 muscular guy is WAY bigger than the 5'4 guys on youtube Most of these youtubers are big on camera because they're short..in real life they're tiny

[@rinkuhero]

milo is just tall and natural, if you are a tall, natural lifter, you are always going to look pretty small on camera no matter what. tall people need steroids to look like bodybuilders, otherwise they just look like NBA players, they have the michael jordan body. he still objectively has more muscle mass than people like alex leonidas though, it's just spread over more area. but just look at a video where he's standing next to someone else. that'd give you a better picture. when you have someone of normal height standing next to a tall lifter for comparison, you realize how big they are. but when they are standing alone, they look small.

[@IISocratesII]

Probably because most of the science guys are natural and all your favourites aren't, it's not that difficult to grasp, and that's coming from a PED user of almost a decade, there's also way more fitness content creators who are just large and roided which is a low barrier for entry VS both being large and making content from a genuine academic background so the sample size is wildly different.

[@maximusX_]

@@kapoioBCS science or not everyone is different, what works for one person does not work for others. it's wrong to preach one style of training because of ''science'' as the end all be all of building muscle and yes most of these science guys preaching one style of training are small and the ones who are genetically gifted or on juice like dr mike iseraetel are the jacked ones, you don't need a degree in rocket science to understand common sense.

[@Master_T_hyperplasia_papya]

MASTER T VOTE FOR BRO TO this wolf guy dont look like he lift

[@slee2695]

Stay in school and learn English

[@GVS]

He definitely lifts, I disappear in a hoodie as well.

[@Master_T_hyperplasia_papya]

@@GVS l am MASTER T get it? l master it l know bettter who lifts and who not lift get it?

[@belikejohndoe101]

GVS gives off major "my dad owns a dealership" vibes. Can't stand him.

[@Tryingtolivestream]

Bro what?😂

[@_Azeem_]

I think you're just projecting

[@weirdo3116]

that's so specific lmao.

[@GVS]

Had to google that and still have no idea what that means.

[@slee2695]

I've been watching GVS since before Sean N gave him a shout out and his channel started major growth I initially had reservations because I know the kind of whyt guys who live in Asia are like...but he seems pretty chill. His lifting advice is S tier

[@vicvin64]

He's among the worst. Misguided confidence deluding followers to thinking he's an authority with an element of competence. I remember when he was "owning" dr mike about failure training. I do like how he recommended doing exercises that people aren't comfortable yet wont do Squats because he isn't comfortable with them. And then accuses others of gaslighting while gaslighting himself. I'm confident he exists in this space just to watch himself speak and lift too heavy. Any financial benefits are a bonus but he just likes himself so much it's admirable.

[@zwryy7622]

Post physique

[@WildAsDaTaliban]

I love the reaction video thumbnails. You look disgusted by their techniques. Lol