Is God the standard of goodness? | Sain-Austin | Talk Heathen 03.40

[@zaragordon1657]

Elie Wiesel (a holocaust survivor) and multiple other holocaust survivors have repeatedly asked anti-abortion groups to stop comparing abortion to the holocaust. Elie Wiesel once said "those who compare the holocaust to abortion, prove that they do not know what the holocaust was".

[@rbwinn3]

That is true. The holocaust killed six million Jews. Abortion has killed 60,000,000 American children since 1973, when atheists started saying abortion was legal in the United States. That is just in one country.

[@DeathsHood]

"Is god the standard of goodness?" Short answer: No. Long answer: Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha No.

[@deltanovember1672]

It sounds like this kid and his bible class are trying to defend biblical slaughter.

[@deltanovember1672]

May Lee I have no fear of the Jew god. He is not real. 😂

[@deltanovember1672]

May, none of it is real love. There’s no race war coming. There’s no fairies or gods, no angels, no Satan, no leprechauns and no ghosts. Try not to be afraid of everything. How many guns do you own May? You can likely see from my profile picture that I’m white but I’m not an American. Sadly the education system there seems to have failed completely. Some kids are taught that the Earth was created!!! Can you imagine such nonsense? If it wasn’t so sad it’d be funny.

[@a.noriega-gonzalez6801]

“maybe, I’m being a little slow” dude, slow is one thing... your mind is on full stop

[@GraemeWoller]

Religion, not even once.

[@owenleblanc6495]

The thing this caller isn't getting is that Human well-being has no in-group- out-group dynamic. The fact that an entire nation agrees to harm another group of people doesn't mean they're not going against human well-being and doing something immoral.

[@lyndonbauer1703]

To play devil's advocate, does that mean if someone's actions are against human wellbeing as a whole that its justifiable to kill them and therefore becomes a moral action? And who gets to decide that? This gets complicated for me on principals in regards to this and would appreciate your opinion.

[@doctorwhy6504]

@@lyndonbauer1703 My 2 cents: I would say It's difficult to say with more specifics. In the case of the Jewish holocaust I would say no, it would be against well being to genocide all Germans in return. Who gets to decide; I would image that no one should get to decide to genocide. In a fictional scenario one could manufacture a case for justifiable genocide; but I do not believe that we have ever been anywhere close to such scenario in real life.

[@lyndonbauer1703]

@@doctorwhy6504 I agree with that. I thought there may be grounds for an arguable eugenics or justfiable genocide as you put using wellbeing. I suppose its largley reliant upon what the definition of wellbeing is and to whom it addresses. Genocide may be good for wellbeing of some involved parties but not others, what's the appropriate course of action there? I'd assume you look beyond individual characteristics and zoom out to a macro level to humanity as a whole. It seems to follow then that it degenerates into a majority rules case of wellbeing which doesn't jive with me, or would wellbeing be similar to violence as proported here - "the freedom to swing your arm ends at my nose". Etc. I probably should dig into Sam Harris' work here as I'm aware he specialises on such topics like wellbeing.

[@holz_name]

@@lyndonbauer1703 I think the problem is that "human well being" doesn't mean anything. It's a concept that sounds nice but nobody will be able agree on what that means. Sure, sure, is cutting off my head in my well being? Maybe. If you believe in an afterlife and God's judgement and that it's better for me to die than sin as a blasphemer. We need something that we can write down and let everybody agree on. That's why every country have a constitution, i.e. a set of rules and principles that are unchanging and are enforced. > "does that mean if someone's actions are against human wellbeing as a whole that its justifiable to kill them and therefore becomes a moral action?" You mean morally good action? Yes of course. The Nazis killed Jews by the millions because of that. The American civil war was fought because of the principle of slavery and if slavery was morally good or bad. Moral values are fought for and defended against, like anything of value. > "And who gets to decide that?" You, me, the society we live in, everybody. Religion doesn't solve the problem at all. Religion is also just a set of rules and principles that people of that religion agreed upon. For example, early in the history nobody cared about abortions. It wasn't until recently that Christians started this whole "pro-life" nonsense. It's certainly is not Biblical. You will not find me anything in the Bible that prohibits abortions. Of course you can interpret any verse to mean anything. The same as "well being" can mean anything.

[@holz_name]

@John Daedalus You know how many people committed atrocities because they thought that they couldn't be wrong? Gay conversion therapies, women cutting off their clitoris and death cults. They all believe that they are right and everybody else is "simple wrong". Why do you think you are above that? You are a human being just like all the others, aren't you? "objective sense of morality" literally everybody believes that they follow an objective sense of morality. Secular morality is not greater, it's just different. Go to Saudi Arabia and declare your "greater" secular morality, lets see how many you will convince.

[@Heretical_Theology]

Caller: "Abortion is evil" Atheist: "God killed unborn and recently born babies" Caller: "But what do you consider evil?" *Nuclear facepalm *

[@theinherentfloyd3393]

This guy should've been forbidden from talking about abortion before he answered for his god's acts. Absolutely a tu quoque on his part.

[@hegyak]

Well said. It's not often I hear someone else calling out a logical fallacy around here. And don't mind the "Theists" that come around here telling you otherwise.

[@NickvonZ]

My thought EXACTLY!

[@JohnSpike8888]

And the interesting thing is - his god isn't even against abortion. He outright commands it (in some situations).

[@ohiobuckeye5828]

Not even close. Punishing a pagan nation guilty of the most heinous acts imaginable is not the same as a woman choosing to kill an innocent child. You just made the worst of false equivalents.

[@JohnSpike8888]

@@ohiobuckeye5828 Do you even read after yourself? Because on the one hand you condemn the killing of an innocent "child" (the quotes are there, because a fetus simply isn't a child). But you're fully ok with killing a whole group of people - INCLUDING INNOCENT CHILDREN!!!

[@lmoral222]

Sain seems to have the capability of logic and reason, but seems extremely indoctrinated in his beliefs.

[@EustaBAracer]

Everyone has the capability of logic. This douche canoe is actively supressing it.

[@Ploskkky]

Theist are so morally confused.

[@saycheese6773]

A.Plosky a based on this video it’s atheists

[@saycheese6773]

John Daedalus yes it is!

[@saycheese6773]

John Daedalus it’s a fact that theist are morally confused ? 😂😂😂 okay buddy!

[@itsok6640]

@@saycheese6773 ok boomer

[@VictorValiant24]

Maybe you meant to say morally dishonest?

[@philipinchina]

"Fucking deal with it. Here's a rainbow". Wonderful.

[@TheBeatle49]

Theists often go for relativism when challenged.

[@tedgrant2]

When an engineer designs a car, there are many restrictions that must be considered. But when a theologian designs a god, there are no restrictions, on the face of it. However, people are familiar with gods that other theologians have designed. So I recommend that you examine other gods before designing your own.

[@The1980Philip]

Eric ... you still need a lot of practice. You allowed Sain to equate secularism to nazism unchallenged again, and again, and again. You should have mentioned the inscription on the Wehrmacht belt buckles.

[@robertallan6373]

The buckle, was it "God Me With Us " ?.

[@bjrnarbjrnarsson5845]

@@robertallan6373 Just "God With Us."

[@stefanniemiec8727]

The Wehrmacht was the unified defense force of Germany during WWII. It was not a political movement - so did not really share any ideology with Nazism.

[@DJH316007]

I doubt it would help with this guy. He has no idea what morals are.

[@josephmoore5422]

@@stefanniemiec8727 The designation "Wehrmacht" replaced the previously used term Reicshwer, and was the manifestation of the Nazi regime's efforts to rearm Germany to a greater extent than the the treaty of Versailles permitted. It was literally created by the Nazi Regime. Git gud

[@vilkoskorlich259]

"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." Bill Murray.

[@trailman20]

The problem with arguing with a stupid person is they don't understand what is is they are arguing

[@NYCFenrir]

Does Sain believe there were no pregnant women when the flood happened?

[@JamesRichardWiley]

The flood was god's way of admitting he was a failure. Who would worship such a perfect loser? A "loser" is someone who doesn't know what they have and screw it up.

[@joecoolioness6399]

@@JamesRichardWiley and wouldn't he have already known how it would turn out? Yet decided to create humans anyway.

[@robby7499]

Probably not.

[@simonthompson2764]

Or when all the Amelakites were slaughtered.

[@badger1296]

You guys rock!

[@DymondLoves]

I cant wait to be able to call!! I love the show! I'm a childrens Sunday school teacher and I struggle to teach as little of the Bible as possible...I cant tell that gruesome stuff to my kids...😱

[@peterbartley9155]

The Family Spot are you a believer?

[@crackedhands]

The Family Spot, I admire your fortitude to be honest, despite your teaching Sunday school.

[@miboogaroo]

LordKellthe1st completely with you mate. it can get quite hilarious and entertaining reading what they think tho.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Just tell the nice stories of gentle Jesus who loved the little children.

[@mateosmind751]

If you look at the Gospels not included in the modern Bible, but were once widely used by Christians, Jesus didn't particularly like kids. He killed another child for messing up the ripples in the pond he was making. The parents complained to Joseph about what Jesus had done. He tried to chastise Jesus so Jesus blinded both parents. He also tortured some animals. These stories were in more than one Gospel.

[@bhig3]

@3:25 playing dnd with Eric seems like it would be awesome.

[@Robeebert]

I hope he isn't a rules-lawyer.

[@Jadinandrews]

Isn't the flood the greatest abortion myth ever?

[@jaygill5582]

Another Tex bites the dust! "Babble" belt states can't get enough of the ass whooping!

[@ashkara8652]

the ass whooping needs to happen on a state-wide legislation level or it is pointless

[@jaygill5582]

@@ashkara8652 Atheism the New world order of intelligence(self thinking citizens) that government the military and church fear so much.

[@MMAGamblingTips]

Jay Gill But the hosts are Texan’s! 🤦🏻‍♂️ lol

[@CaseyTwist]

Jay Gill Your comment is ignorant and leans toward being very uninformed. I grew up in and have lived in two “babble belt states.” So now you’ve lumped me into Christianity. Geographically, your non thought out smug words have lumped everyone in those states all together as serving the same God. I certainly hope you never have to relocate there for a job. You would immediately begin to uncontrollably praise god the second you crossed the state line. Stop giving the rest of us atheists a bad image. Somewhere along the way you were indoctrinated with labeling and not understanding that free thinkers can live anywhere.

[@JoeBz2011]

The fact that human understanding of morality has evolved debunks the idea of objective morality.

[@joecoolioness6399]

Exactly. Morality to me is just the act of following societies laws.

[@derkylos]

@@joecoolioness6399 Except that a society's laws can be immoral (cf. slavery).

[@JoeBz2011]

@@derkylos true but is there a source where this isn't true?.. apparently not.

[@derkylos]

@@JoeBz2011 Lots of people find it immoral to follow societies' laws. Hence revolutions.

[@JoeBz2011]

@@derkylos and thus would rather follow what instead?

[@Soonzuh]

"So, slaughtering a group of people... yeah, probably that..." :)

[@keithherring7677]

Do you agree with the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan?

[@dougs7367]

@@keithherring7677 Japan was the aggressor and dropping the bomb ended a war that would have resulted in far more deaths. The Biblical genocides were commanded by "God" so his "chosen" people could take their land (and usually their young girls for raping). Apples and oranges.

[@keithherring7677]

@@dougs7367 So, you agree that killing men, women, and children is moral in some cases. Ok.

[@dougs7367]

@@keithherring7677 Again apples and oranges. Not a question of morality, but of self-defense. Killing in self defense or in defense of others to save lives is sometimes a necessary course of action. The God of The Bible however is content with condoning the immoral act of mass genocide and looting just to take what is theirs. A hyopcrite who declared "Thou Shall Not Kill" and "Thou Shall not Kill"...

[@keithherring7677]

@@dougs7367 So, if God's actions saved lives you would support him?

[@annickbrennen8779]

The mere fact that humans have the capacity to judge whether the act of a god is moral or not should give a hint about the source of morality!

[@hmshyperion]

Vi is absolutely adorable

[@lmoral222]

Beautiful ending to the call too. Goes to show that agreeance, love and peace can be attained even between two opposing views. Nothing wrong with differing views, the wrong only happens when the discussion gets out of hand. I wish the world were always this way. Peace and love everyone. More love needed in the world today more than ever.

[@Puchuchi747]

💝💖💗💓💕💔❤🧡💛💚💙💜🖤💟

[@wunnell]

What atheists think is evil is irrelevant to the problem of evil as an argument against god. The whole argument is that the Christian god is evil - or at the very least allows evil - by its own standards. As an atheist, I have no problem accounting for things that both I and Christians consider evil existing in this world. It's exactly what you'd expect in a totally natural universe. As a Christian, you don't get to say that a perfectly good god exists and created everything and that everything includes evil. It's the Christians that are defining evil, not me. They define it and it exists so their perfectly good, all-powerful god must not exist, because such a god would not allow evil in the first place. That's the whole point.

[@tedgrant2]

This makes Christianity the easiest religion ever invented. All you have to do is believe that a few strange statements are true and admit that you are naughty. And you don't have to do anything until you are dying. Respect ! But you will be asked to donate to some random organisations, say 10%, but dont bother.

[@nandinibandhini]

@tedgrant2 Excellent comment! Have a good one.

[@budd2nd]

WE decided collectively what is GOOD, how did we do that independently of this god? It’s obvious that we can decide on matters of good or not, all on our own, no god required.

[@ohiobuckeye5828]

@Budd Stalin, Mao, and Hitler thought the same way.

[@budd2nd]

Ohio Buckeye - dodge the question and totally irrelevant .

[@ohiobuckeye5828]

@John Because you haven’t demonstrated that my argument concerning Stalin is irrelevant. You are using the No True Scotsman Fallacy because you know that Stalin asserted that there was no God and that paved the way for his actions which cost 20 to 25 million people their lives. Despite your attempts to detach Stalin and atheism.... You will not get away with it.... I will continue to argue that atheism allowed Stalin and Mao to massacre 70 million people (if not more). That’s what you do in response to revisionist historians (ironic) like yourself. You call them on their bull💩.

[@ohiobuckeye5828]

@John Revisionist historian confirmed. You are oblivious to the fact that Stalin (per his atheism) saw nothing wrong with purging Mother 🇷🇺 of political dissidents. You also don’t see the correlation of survival of the fittest and Stalin’s actions. You are an apologist for a horrific tragedy that is responsible for the deaths of millions of people. You cannot separate Stalin’s atheism which fueled his massacre. This was clearly his atheism put into practice. It is you who needs to pay attention because you are willfully ignorant of history, cause and effect, etc..., It is laughable that you attribute 20 million dead solely the purview of being power hungry. I could argue that his denial of God lead to him being power hungry and demonstrate it by killing 20 million people. Your argument falls flat on its face because this wasn’t an isolated incident. Mao was an atheist, Castro was an atheist, The Khymer Rouge was atheist. Ho Chi Minh was an atheist, Hugo Chavez was an atheist, etc...., See a pattern there? It’s like not attributing a team In the NFL finishing 0-16 because they are dead last in the NFL in rushing but blaming their poor record on their uniform color scheme. That’s what you attempt to do here. And that’s why your argument fails.

[@T.Rex33]

Maybe someone should have asked Sain if he should be forced to donate blood, a kidney, a cornea, a lung etc. to a child that needs it. I'm pretty sure he would have issues with that.

[@bhig3]

@20:27 No. Once you set the goal you can make objective determinations about how actions can be viewed in relation to that goal, but the goal is always subjective.

[@tedgrant2]

The god of the New Testament was designed with a new feature. Salvation from the punishment of the Old god. In addition, the Old god was re-designed. No more help with the weather and war.

[@garlandgarrett9806]

So stand or fall. Lol It's not getting better. New religions are always coming. Religions is self-righteous. I have my own mind set. And don't mind opinions. Neither do I force anything on anybody, of whatever they believe. I just say another one bites the dust. Lol

[@leecherry6171]

Without a doubt and absolutely 👍. Great question!!

[@dougs7367]

"A group of people got together and decided that this is right and this is wrong" Yes, and they wrote it down in the Bible.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

During the Bronze Age in a tribal society that worshiped an invisible man hiding in the clouds and condoned slavery, stoning and genocide.

[@tedgrant2]

God is good because that is part of his design specification. When most people design a god, they decide that this god is good. Given that feature of the design, they can then confidently state the origin of morals. Of course, not all gods include that particular design feature. Some gods are bad.

[@kevinpalmer4137]

Thanos and the snap seems pretty comparable to God and the flood

[@sophonax661]

Lol Thanos let 50% alive, didn't he? The flood wasn't this merciful :P

[@kevinpalmer4137]

@@sophonax661 fact, but it's the closest we have in modern media I can think of, and that it's not as bad, yet thought of as worse I think serves to prove a point

[@sophonax661]

@@kevinpalmer4137 Yep.. but abortion is seen as a sin too by those who worship a god who commited genocide, so it's no surprise ;)

[@lukewojtanowicz1991]

@@kevinpalmer4137 That is why heroes, kings, and even gods knelt down before a mortal man who died to save us all. But don't go worshipping Tony Stark, he'd be a very bad Savior. You wouldn't get a day off, for a start.

[@lukewojtanowicz1991]

@Richard Ball First not a Christian. Simply extending the analogy, if Thanos is comparable to the Christian god Tony would be.... And given the fall of civilization, ignorance of how the story started, and maybe a thousand years to work with, Tony Stark might achieve a similar mythological status. Just saying.

[@Herohayah]

"Nope! Nope! Fuckin deal with it. Here's a rainbow." - Classic LOLOLOLOL

[@maryharvey2804]

Every living creature was "evil" and just had to be destroyed? All their own fault. What did the poor butterflies do?

[@daffyrose]

Mary Harvey How did they get the butterflies onto the Ark?

[@zwc76]

Hey man, it was an eternal being that could see into the future - that couldn't see this shit happening, and hitting the reset button was the only thing he could do ... with infinite power ... even Spiderman has better moral than the bible / God. "With great power comes great responsibility."

[@enzorocha2977]

As a corollary, don't forget the Nazis based their actions on the notion they were doing god's work. “Gott mit uns” (God with us) was inscribed on every soldier's belt to signify their belief. The caller asks, "where do you base your claim that god is evil?" and you repeatedly give the answer and explain it over and over again but sadly, he's not hearing you or it hasn't sunk in yet. Or he's deliberately being dense. He is basically saying, "without god, you're free to do what you want." He simply cannot believe, as do most religious people, that you can live moral lives without a supreme supernatural being. He also gives a thinly veiled defense of genocide with the "because he's God" defense. Another line he gives: "God had to do it because man has become so evil," which is unbelievably _bunk_. Why did he have to kill people then and not just appear to everyone and explain the error of their ways to them if he was this all powerful being? Where did this evil come from by the way and why can't he do something about it? What about the civilizations before the Hebrews around the world engaged in this kind of evil? So many more holes in his story and arguments too many to mention.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

According to Yahweh's own words in Genesis, he is perfect in every way and he cannot make a mistake. Unfortunately this impeccable standard of goodness arranged for the fall of man into sin and the mass drowning of nearly all living things. Nevertheless Yahweh had no foreknowledge of this disaster and is not responsible for what happened.

[@davisbrown8679]

Pretty convenient

[@brucemadge8147]

Drivel!

[@diegosuplado8924]

GOD: "hey hooman, i will kill you to death" Hooman: " gofakadak"

[@kieronbrowne7881]

God is good sometimes and very very very bad manny many times. By the way it’s just a story.

[@guytheincognito4186]

Not really, it's barely a hypothesis because at least an hypothesis has an demonstrable "plausibility", which becomes theory once the "possibility" of that has been demonstrated.

[@kieronbrowne7881]

Guy The Incognito please explain I’m not sure what you mean?

[@guytheincognito4186]

@@kieronbrowne7881 🤔What's unclear about it? I explained that it's not justifiably an hypothesis aswell as explained how an hypothesis goes Into theory.

[@kieronbrowne7881]

Guy The Incognito what’s a hypothesis got to do with a imaginary god killing lots of people in the bible,which from why I understand is bad.

[@guytheincognito4186]

@@kieronbrowne7881 Ahh i see where the problem is at now, having reread your initial comment. I read it as " it's just a _theory_ " when you actually said "It's just a _story_ ". Hence the confusion. Regardless, killing alot of people "in the bible" or otherwise is Indeed Bad.

[@Robeebert]

I think that the best kind of BBEG is a relatable one. One that you aren't certain is immoral, but has a goal that is necessarily in contrast to the player party.

[@chandanaperera8450]

"Human well being that promotes living over death" should have been Eric`s answer... Regarding the floods i don`t know why anyone didn`t mention about kids..? like babies and toddlers that perished in the floods.. what kind of evil crime they had committed ? the other thing i don`t get is what GOD was trying to achieve by drowning everyone ???? (other than revenge..) . Can any christian please answer these ?

[@Nfuka-wf1hz]

Did the caller just asked why they believe genocide is wrong???

[@TheFunGun5]

Four words: The Book of Job No, god is not good. Not by a long shot.

[@adversarysatan8059]

wrong Satan is not good....proven fact.

[@TheFunGun5]

@@adversarysatan8059 Expect satan didnt torture and murder Jobs family. That was god.

[@adversarysatan8059]

@@TheFunGun5 I suggest you reread Job....in fact it was Satan that did everything you claim God did.chapt1 Job "6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, and Satan came also among them. 7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.----------- 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.---------- 12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. 13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: 15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: 19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. 20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, 21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah. 22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.---the divine name king James bible......read carefully Satan did the dirty deeds.not God........pay attention to verses 9-11

[@adversarysatan8059]

@@TheFunGun5 notice Job was mistaken when he thought God was responsible for his misfortune.

[@adversarysatan8059]

@John Daedalus Satan tried to get God to turn against Job and he refused 2 (8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.------------ 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.------------12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. ) times......he wanted God to do what he Satan did.,He tried to tempt God to put Job to the test for no reason other than to prove satan wrong. --------- g God said he would not do so 2 (And Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.--------- 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.---------6 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. 7 So went Satan forth from the presence of Jehovah, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. 8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes. ) times but God allowed Satan to prove his point within reason......God did not put Job to the test because he was satisfied with Job's conduct. Satan put Job to the test to try to break Job's integrity ( And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. ) . I can dissect the verses if you can not locate where they are...smiling. God said Job was in Satans hands so to speak 2 times, and he puit limits on Satans actions 2 times as well. you are ignoring what you are reading..

[@chrism3241]

wow there was a bible college ad before this video started. wow just wow

[@23.10-k1v]

13:39 why do you want them to feel welcomed, that’s the real question , and the answer is you’re miraculously fully aware , and responsible of what you’re doing did and done

[@thekububeach]

That's exactly right about the flood story. Humans were fucked up but then all animals had to suffer.

[@L_o_c_a_l_G_u_y]

The dolphins were ok. (Those smug, bastards...)

[@steveedgar5191]

re; the abortion issue --- when the churches start holding funerals for miscarriages, then they can talk about a "soul" thingy...

[@heckle9]

I think there is a problem with how the word "evil" is used. How did the word come into use? It seems it is common in English that everyone has the idea of "good vs evil". Why is it not "good vs bad"? Maybe "righteous vs evil" is more fitting? Seems that use of the word "good" is pretty general but "evil" is the extreme level of bad. Just doesn't seem to work right but everyone use both words as though they balance each other out.

[@MrBomasBalloons]

An embryo is human life. But it is not a PERSON. The argument is over personhood. My pinky finger is human life - differentiated human cells. In fact, my pinky is larger and has a more fully formed nervous system than embryos have at the point most abortions occur. However, my pinky is not a person - it has no brain and can not survive unless it is attached to a body. Personhood is about the brain. When a fetus's brain is well developed enough to think, we can start to call it a person. So, when is that? According to the CD statistics for the year 2014 (the most recent I could find), ⅔ of abortions occur in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy, and 91% by week 13. Week 13 is significant, because that is usually when the fetus begins to move. Unlike modern religious dogma which states that the soul enters a fertilized egg at the moment of conception, religious people used to believe the first movement of the fetus, the quickening, was the sign the soul had entered the baby (and the Bible even suggests it doesn't happen until the baby takes its first breath). This first movement is a sign that the brain's development has reached a point where it is sending signals out to the limbs. But this activity is reflexive, motor signaling, not anywhere close to the level of conscious human thought. It is about on par with a sea slug. It isn't until around week 17 that we see the major synaptic growth that leads to conscious thought, and not until week 23 that a baby can survive outside the womb with medical assistance. Synaptic growth skyrockets around week 28 and continues for several months after term. So, I would say somewhere in the week 17-23 range is where we could potentially say personhood occurs. The CDC statistics for 2014 show 95% of abortions occur by week 17, and 98.5% by week 23. Of course, religious people don't care about brain development or personhood, their concern is for the lost souls. So, let's say you want to argue the soul enters the embryo the moment the egg is fertilized, in spite of that being both anti-Biblical and anti-historical. A recent metadata analysis concluded that between 40% and 60% of all fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted - most of them before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Is God killing babies when this happens? Or are these abortions ok because God is the one doing them? Why does God allow unviable unions of sperm and eggs in the first place? Isn't he omniscient and omnipotent - meaning he could foresee and stop them? Or does he withhold souls from these unviable unions he knows will end in spontaneous abortions? And if he does withhold these souls, why wouldn't he do the same for all of the fetuses that will be aborted? After all, if he is omniscient and omnipotent, he knows which ones will be aborted and could prevent the souls from entering. In fact, he could prevent the pregnancy in the first place. Or is he not omniscient and omnipotent? And if he allows the pregnancy and the soul to enter knowing it will just be aborted, isn't he ultimately responsible for that?

[@robwhythe793]

As a christian myself, I'm disturbed by how often I hear American christians continuously bringing up abortion as evil. As a Canadian Brit I don't see it that way, and didn't even think of it as being an issue until I came to Canada and started following more closely what was going on south of my border. Please can you interrupt your christian callers who have that mindset, and tell them that most other christians see abortion as a normal medical procedure, and that demonising it is recognised as being an archaic view that is being slowly corrected? And that it isn't the black/white issue that some American christians try to make it out to be? For instance, most civilised societies recognise that the embryo steadily becomes more viable as it develops, and that past a certain point it should be given a chance of life, so that late-term abortions are avoided and are only carried out in extreme, life-threatening situations? So that it is not a battle between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, but an evolving understanding of viability? Please, please, stop arguing about this issue, and learn to listen to each other.

[@smoothmicra]

I'm giving Eric credit here. In the past he would have let a theist waffle on and on, preaching some sh*t he (let's face it, it is almost certainly a "he") heard William Lane Craig or Sye Ten Bruggengate say. Now he is getting into their ribs early on, giving them hard questions to answer in response to their assertions/questions. Good for Eric, well done fella. Good show.

[@maloc1824]

God is "all powerful" but can't find some other way to start over without drowning the entire world. Even Thanos (MCU before Endgame) would have thought that was evil.

[@TheLegendOfRandy]

He's also "all-knowing," so making the human population _knowing_ he's just going to drown them all in a few short years is pointless.

[@TheLegendOfRandy]

@@redeemedone8553 "Evil people" Like "evil" people who eat shellfish or the "evil" homosexuals?

[@joeldavis1693]

He kept asking "what happens when Nazi Germany decides that committing atrocities was what's best for humanity" "who's gonna stop them?" Wish someone would have pointed out that it was humans that stopped the Nazis, not god

[@russellh9894]

Why didn't their god just make everyone infertile except Noah? Much less bloodshed and the problem is solved in 100 years. 100 years seems like it would be a small amount of time to a supposed infinite being.

[@henrybyrd5402]

I should point out that Atheists do not rely on an ancient book to judge what is right and what is wrong. Therefore, there are Atheists like myself, who disagree with abortion. I also think that adultery is deceitful and wrong. My similarity with other Atheists is that I reached these conclusions without needing help from religious writing or any teaching based on it.

[@annk.8750]

Indisputable fact: people disagree on the the question of "personhood". The only serious opposition to abortion in this country comes from religion, and thus has no place in our civil law. It is not right for any religion to put its own laws over those who do not subscribe to that religion.

[@23.10-k1v]

2:01 flipping the question means admitting that you have no clue of what you’re talking about , the reason might be acting brave cool , or being angry and insulting , could also very well be feeling superior

[@shanehisle1294]

Awe. V is so green. How cute. "I dont think god is evil, cause I dont think he exsist" When talking about god being evil, it's been very well established were talking about the story book

[@Zhamp0]

In order to have more progress in these conversations I think there needs to be more emphasis on explaining what morals are and where they come from. They were stuck because the caller didnt understand that Eric and V also believe that there is no such thing as absolut morality. Instead (and correct me if I'm wrong) they think that based on the physics of this world and the evolution of our species our morals are already focused on emphatie and well being by default. And we used our intellect over the ages to narrow down the right path by trial and error. We had many failures along the way but the more we learn the better we get at constructing societies around it. If the caller had understood that he wouldnt have constantly asked the question why nazi germany isnt considered moral in our logic since he didnt understand that its not a specific group of people who simply dictates the best moral compass but rather its the ever growing and improving method as the goal here. So many calls have never made it past this point and I feel there could something be done about it.

[@TallBob1962]

Before allowing him to switch to another example, get him to admit that yes, slaughter of a group of people was an immoral act by his god. And that that is just one of many, many examples.

[@HumbleTemplar]

If I'm ever visiting USA, I'm 100% stopping there for a visit.

[@lewisner]

In the christian worldview god set up the entire Universe and decided what Humans were going to do in advance. Then he throws a hissy fit and drowns them all for what he made them do.

[@thetimofclubsgeaughan3032]

now you get it, those who choose to be atheist have no choice

[@joethehobo89]

This is a fascinating episode. I think it perfectly demonstrates how a seemingly reasonable, nice guy like Sain can be pushed to DEFEND *MASS GENOCIDE* AS MORAL because he's been so indoctrinated to his god. THIS is the danger of religion. THIS is the danger of indoctrination. THIS is the danger of good, rational people being told to believe or else. The mass-extinction described in the bible around Noah's arc was immoral. WE know it was immoral. SAIN knows it was immoral. Religion's a scary drug, man. If you're a Christian and you're watching Sain try to defend what he's defending, please let this be your wake-up call.

[@tingzing5668]

Also when people ask how we discern true good and evil (or right and wrong) without god, I tell them its with the same discerning ability they use to determine which parts of the bible are still worth following, and which parts were just "from a different time when society was different." Their ojective morality goes right out the window when you point out that some followers follow the bible more closely than others. Each follower decides for themselves which mandates are important. Dashing little heads upon rocks, eating shellfish, tattoos, mixed fabrics, owning slaves, allowing women authority in a church...all followers 'discern' whats worth keeping and what to leave. How do they do that?

[@niconestra]

We've come so far haven't we

[@Ender7j]

Why was The Flood the best answer to God’s dilemma? That’s the best he could do? Thanos was more compassionate in his slaughter... If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, why didn’t he think that social reform through direct action with His creations might be a better way? Why wasn’t there a lesson in the Bible about why God chose murder over forgiveness and mentorship? Wouldn’t an omniscient being know that recording its thoughts would be needed in future generations as people learned to legitimately doubt?

[@steveOCalley]

16:36 Natasha had no moustache!

[@SPL0869]

I'm going to go on the record and say that Sain is in the top ten of of the most cringe worthy callers ever to call either the Atheist Experience or Talk Heathen. He's right up there with the douche that called a child that gets raped ”evil.”

[@23.10-k1v]

18:33 no what , what you gonna do , punish ..... precisely

[@23.10-k1v]

19:41 i absolutely don’t understand what it’s trying to say , but yeah , a lion can be blamed , first it eats more than it needs to , second it can eat corpses but it doesn’t want to and third it hunts on young and disabled animals , in order to honor the sign , sometimes the lion takes on a herd of bulls , not because it wants to , it has to

[@johnsonking9211]

Lets move the goal post

[@ajbowley2725]

This is outrageous! - it doesn't state the reason god resorted to the Flood in the Bible as "people were evil" it states that the reason is God was angry... and the reason he was angry was because of disobedience. A beings anger spilling over into vengeful wrath is hard to avoid the conclusion that It was a wicked act!

[@JediMasterEzio]

What's the definition of "actualized human"?

[@se7enhaender]

Why'd you guys not make sure he gets that that wellbeing part is meant to be for everyone, not just a group...?

[@steveconley4351]

Things that don't exist can't be good or bad.

[@nuoiptertermer4484]

Killing someone is okay if it's in defense of yourself or someone or something else, or for justice. That's it.

[@sofabuddha]

Well, you say that, but if it was a mass murderer fleeing from the police, it still wouldn't be right, even though they may kill to defend themselves. Just sayin...

[@ianturner6062]

Oh god Eric.... Learn how to deal with the Tu Quoque fallacy. Secondly, learn how to deal with someone who deflects the argument because you have him cornered. He played you here!

[@tedgrant2]

We decide what is good and what is bad and we sometimes change our decision. In 1900 in the UK, fox hunting with dogs was legal and enculade was illegal. You could drive a vehicle without a licence, without a seat belt, after drinking 5 pints of beer. There were no parking wardens and you could be hanged for murder. Life was good.

[@billmauer8117]

Christians go into these arguments with the assumption that anything that God does in the Bible is good or acceptable. If they read another book and a character wiped out all the people in a country they would agree that he indeed was a villain. They’re God always gets a free pass.

[@holz_name]

Actually, the caller makes a good argument. If the standard is human well being and a nation like Nazi Germany decides that Jews should not be alive for human well being then is there something to stop them from killing Jews? No. But: it wasn't God who stopped Nazi Germany from killing Jews, it was other people. Other people said: hold on a minute, what Nazi Germany did was not good because they are killing babies, children, women and men. The moral judgement was entirely secular. In any case, no higher power was involved. It was people judging other people. It's absurd to call for a God to be the standard of good if all we have are people judging other people.

[@maxm2639]

The male host is blowing good arguments by his scattershot responses. He makes a sensible, reasoned point, and then responds to the caller's answer with a: "Dude, your morality sucks. People aren't evil like cartoon villains!" (Not an exact quote) He moves back and forth from careful argument to off the cuff sarcasm and whimsical examples, and I groan as he sabotages his own point. I've started out several videos admiring his methodical approach because I think it's effective, and then he ends up, as I said, saying things that leave the caller puzzled, or are just critical comments about the caller's abilities, etc. If no one else notices this, I'll write out verbatim transcripts, but that takes a lot of time and this is subjective enough that I'm not trying to convince anyone. I just want to know if I'm alone in my reaction.

[@brianjosephmedia1086]

I'm surprised both hosts failed to explain that just because a bunch of people decide something increases well being doesn't mean they're right, they can be wrong as fuck, it's well being of humans not well being of Germans, even from a selfish point of view well being is increased the more you collaborate with people sharing this planet with you. Science is what helps us answer these questions not popular opinion.

[@ronron9019]

I don't think his question about Nazis was addressed. The Nazis did agree as a nation that they would have higher well-being if they expel or exterminate the subhumans. But had they accepted the "subhumans" into their society, they would've had a more resilient society. Basically, take metropolitan US for contrast. So there is an objective argument, with well-being as a measure, that the Nazis model of morality is wrong.

[@katherineblackwater6717]

20:14 I'm dead

[@visforvegan8]

Actually I don't want Sain to come back, not until he evolves like 1,000 years.

[@musiqal333]

My question is, how did theists decide or conclude that a god is morally perfect, whereas any humans that do what god did in the OT would immediately be punished, without hesitation? The fuck?!

[@burntgod7165]

He was really allowed to segue too easily from his god being a genocidal maniac to abortion. He should've been pressed on that, whether he agreed it was immoral or not.

[@fitzmullin6665]

I tend to think humans know when their doing wrong, but will always try and justify it to themselves and others. They know what their doing is wrong, but they want to have a day and night, not racked by guilt. When you feel what you do is justified, you can just about do any nasty thing, that includes believing in mythical beings, without proof.

[@richardvoyer5697]

God is like a baby sitter on the phone .

[@tedgrant2]

The only reason the weather god flooded the earth was because he left the windows open. After he realised his mistake, he created the rainbow to remind himself never to do it again. Genesis chapter 7 to 9 explains all. FYI Noah died when he was 950 years old !

[@fatdoi003]

so freshly newborns are evil? they may have evil parents but doesn't mean the babies are evil too?

[@AGrayPhantom]

W E L L B E I N G

[@andrewkeithlow8305]

Alternative opening scenario: Eric: God killing the first born son of every house hold? Sain: So why do you think God killing the first born of ever house hold is evil? Eric:... Me:.... My cat:meow!! Me:Amazing rebuttal Smudge!

[@JamesRichardWiley]

God can do whatever he pleases. He's the standard of moral behavior.

[@jmaniak1]

God loves blood and foreskins.

[@larjkok1184]

James Richard Wiley Good stuff. I like his stoning routine.

[@phillipseifert694]

God is never above a bronze-age mentality throughout both the old & New Testaments For that reason, even as a child, I found the stories far fetched

[@briancomley8210]

Name one thing, Eric does that, then he change direction with out answering the one point he asked for.

[@unikracoon1913]

He kept saying nation but Eric was talking about humanity...

[@AlexPBenton]

I am personally against abortions *except* in the case of the mother’s life being at risk. If you can’t support a baby, then give them up for adoption, and (except in the case of rape of course) pregnancy is avoidable.

[@23.10-k1v]

21:27 yeah , change subject