IS GWEN STACY TRANS??? 🤯😱 (Minisode 5)

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

Just posting my opinion before the video (might edit if I change my mind) I'd say she's queer coded but not necessarily fully canonically trans Like her struggles/stories/relationships/etc are very relatable to a queer audience but I wouldn't say that necessarily makes her trans

[@grilledleeks6514]

I'd say you are pandering for brownie points and lack any basis in any way for that opinion. 😂

[@themorbidzoo]

@@grilledleeks6514 interesting, how so

[@airplanes_aren.t_real]

@@grilledleeks6514 if they wanted to pander why not just make her cannonicaly trans instead of this "is she isn't she" game?

[@grilledleeks6514]

​@themorbidzoo well let's start with the fact he hasn't given a basis yet. Gwen Stacy was written as the original girlfriend of Peter Parker(straight male) before her death. If she was trans, you didn't suddenly discover it now. Simply saying she's queer coded because that suits your personal taste is meaningless

[@grilledleeks6514]

​@@airplanes_aren.t_realI said you are pandering, not marvel. Lol

[@raddest_toddler]

Mariana Colín shoved me into my locker, called me a nerd, and said spidergwen wasnt real

[@BenjaminWandio]

I think Gwen is interesting as an allegory for transness, being that she is a female character who has been put into a role that (in the comics as well as the Spiderverse setting) is otherwise almost exclusively male. She became Spiderman because her Peter Parker died, when normally Gwen Stacey is the one who is supposed to die.

[@themorbidzoo]

Nice

[@Spencerdoken]

I don't mind the ambiguity of Gwen's transness at all, but I do think the absolutism people seek in the statement "Gwen is trans" is very specifically an emotional counter to the very adamant statements from transphobes that she *cannot* be trans.

[@themorbidzoo]

I think it often is too, I kind of talk about this in my babadook appendix, but the absolutism in this case basically makes it a rhetorical arms race that imo gets everyone farther and farther away from the issue at hand: trans visibility and representation

[@devononair]

Just a classic example of modern culture wars discourse. I think most people in the 90s would have viewed the same character as ambiguous and beautiful in her ambiguity, and as having an ability to speak to different experiences, providing a gentle refuge for trans anxieties. In today's social climate, the proliferation of transphobia makes everyone force themselves into either, "I don't believe she is trans because I don't want trans characters in my stories," or "how dare you take away my trans characters! I need them! She is definitely trans!" I don't think forcing yourself into a box like that is helpful to anyone, least of all yourself. Unfortunately it seems to have pervaded much of modern cultural and political discourse. Some of my friends don't understand my lack of desire to have a strong opinion about some more general political issues (eg I am neither for nor against capitalism), but I think acknowledging what you don't know is healthy, and ambiguity can be a productive resource for deeper thinking.

[@fiona9891]

​@@devononair the issue with not having an opinion about capitalism is that inaction supports whatever the current system is, so you should probably seek to educate yourself about it

[@kayla8402]

Yeah. Honestly for any other identity, folks would be saying "oh yeah that looks probably right". One thing that really hit me was the flags and stuff are in her establishing scenes, as a movie it's showing all this as core to her identity. Like, the way it's presented THROUGH the movie would be taken as near-confirmation for most other identities in other movies. That and the color scheme, which DOES blend and shift and moves between trans and bi colors, and stands out in trans colors particularly strongly with her father later. BUT yeah it's never outright stated, and so it stands as a broader, general queer metaphor. But so no you can't quite say "THIS IS TRUE", but... unfortunately it is both a necessary counter to make sure that what it's clearly doing isn't steamrollered over, but of course that does lead to twitter wars.

[@sabersin5368-c2c]

This is ironic, considering the fact that the whole reason they even say that Gwen Stacy isn't trans is because y'all are so adamant on saying that Gwen *has* to be trans all for the sake of personal validation.

[@kierandraschil1794]

I’ve been passing your videos around my friend group because this level of dry media/societal analysis is such a breath of fresh air. I like your observations on how the argument is about the wrong thing- whether gwen is canonically trans or not doesn’t matter, because the people who need to see the trans coding will resonate with her story, and those trappings will just be background noise to anyone who doesn’t care. I myself am canonically a trans and I went into the theatre unaware of the discourse and actually missed both trans flags, but still felt the story was obviously akin to a trans story. It’s not an allegory because of the trans flags or Gwen’s physical stature- it’s because Gwen is outed in front of a family member who initially rejects her, finds solace in a group of people like her, and eventually finds love and acceptance from her father as he chooses his daughter as a person over the corrupt system he serves. Even if she was “canonically cis”, you couldn’t scrub the queer narrative off of that.

[@themorbidzoo]

Perfectly said 💗

[@samlerf]

Cis is not a thing.

[@kitsunemusicisfire]

From now on instead of saying that I'm trans I'm going to say I'm "canonically trans"

[@skyteus]

​@@samlerfMaybe it's time to open a book, a dictionary perhaps?

[@samlerf]

@@skyteus Whim of the time. The vast majority of people doesn't need a label from a subgroup.

[@SarahNGeti]

The Schrodinger cat of trans characters. The ambiguity is actually very smart as it shows that being trans doesn't define a persons character and just a social label.

[@Mattythebassist_]

Omg thank you. I referenced the Shrödinger’s cat thought experiment to in arguments about Gwen. And ye being trans doesn’t completely change her character; to me the reading just makes her more interesting and beautiful.

[@Nick08079]

In order to be something, it has to exist in the first place. Trans don't exist because you're either XX or XY when developing in your mother who is XX.

[@thediaz07]

It doesn't define a person but people still try to make it their defining factor. There's the issue. People crave attention..when people see that being different garners more attention than they do that thing.

[@Mattythebassist_]

@@thediaz07 Don’t really see that perspective as relevant because Gwen doesn’t make it her personality and, if people start perceiving her as having a different personality, because she’s trans, then that’s just stereotyping.

[@thediaz07]

@@Mattythebassist_ true

[@YungTimeWeaver]

Trying to convince twitter that fictional characters are not real people is an uphill battle.

[@Dee-Mellow]

Personally I don't think she's trans however the whole point of Spiderman, and especially these movies, is that *anyone can be Spiderman* and if a young trans person sees themselves in her then thats great thats some positive representation. Even without Gwen Peter and his Spiderman go through many of the same type of things.

[@br1na332]

Yes ❤

[@greggoat6570]

I really loathe “everyone can be Spider-Man” as a theme in comics and extra media. It is so transparently convenient from a marketing perspective that it almost defies analysis.

[@devononair]

I love this interpretation. It speaks to the people who love the idea of "head-canon." Fictional characters don't have a medical history or any physical qualities, as they are fictional. They have a story, an intent and an interpretation. Those things can conflict. The intent could be that she is not trans, but you could interpret her as trans, even though her story is not about transness. Or those could be flipped. The beauty of art is that leads you to question the experiences and beliefs of characters and relate these to yourself.

[@pinnipes]

"i really really hate it when people talk about stories as though they're real events with concrete facts and logical outcomes" OH MY GOD THANK YOU. OH MY GOD AHHH

[@GhostinaSpell]

Uh…I gotta be honest, am I the only one who interpreted it more as Spider-Gwen’s Peter Parker possibly being trans? I do agree that there isn’t a correct awnsers, but I allways interpreted as her Peter Parker being trans and…that just makes what happens even sadder. Like the whole situation in general. Peter getting bullied, and Captain Stacy wanting to hunt down Spider Woman so badly only to know that is his own daughter is just…heartbreaking. I interpreted as Peter being so close to Gwen and her family to the point he was pretty much a brother to her in a sense, and possibly a son to Captain Stacy as well…In this version of the story that ITSPV and ATSPVI brings I couldn’t help but think and see Peter’s “I just wanted to be special like you” as in a ‘I want to be accepted and have the chance to do extraordinary things like Spider-Woman, like you, Gwen.” It felt to me in a sense that Peter wanting to become a mutant maybe in his mind and point of view would probably overshadow all the things that made people bully him in the first place. And at least in the way I see it. That included him being trans. Of course I’m partly saying this from a perspective of my own experiences as a non-straight woman and also as someone who in their teenage hood years definitely had odd solutions to events that could have been handled in a different way. That’s the main reason I think my interpretation might be at least a little possible even if it might be my own personal headcanon.

[@cephalopat]

just wanted to say that i also really like the theory/headcanon that gwen's peter was trans! and that the "protect trans kids" pin implies a found-family dynamic with gwen and her dad's relationship with peter... love it

[@wizzrobe6007]

Tbh Ive seen this theory banded around a lot more than the Gwen theory, I was surprised to see ppl thought Gwen was trans. Peter seemed like a lot more blunt and obvious trans narrative than Gwen was.

[@FangsFirst]

Woah. That…almost makes the flags "more sensible", too. Not that they _couldn't_ be sensible as referencing Gwen, but the idea of quiet, pained passive expressions/reminders hanging around both characters who were so wounded by Peter's death…oof.

[@thewiggler2327]

Possibly...? I dunno. As a trans man myself, it's definitely possible but feels... Uncomfortable, especially since Peter dies from taking a substance that transforms his body due to his desire to be special/not bullied anymore. I can see it, sure, but when it comes to rep in a superhero story that feels more like a negative stereotype than anything (even if he is supported by the Stacys). Especially since he dies in the backstory, it feels like..."You get to have a trans character, *but* he has to die and it has to be a metaphor for how transitioning is dangerous."

[@thewiggler2327]

I love trans masc rep (and am hoping to see someone who reads that way to me in Spiderverse - they're my favorite movies!), but making Peter trans as opposed to Gwen (they could both be trans! That's possible) feels more like a trans equivalent to Bury Your Gays than actually giving trans people a place in Spiderman.

[@malum9478]

quickly becoming one of my more appreciated lefty youtubers. good video. also spiderpunk will indeed kickstart the revolution

[@themorbidzoo]

Thanks 😊 and yes, soon we’ll all have been this cool the whole time

[@mossy3565]

When you said, "Now, because I am me-" For a split second all I could think of was clowns. Love your content! Your great!

[@themorbidzoo]

Big thanks 😊

[@davidmcguire8041]

Incredible work as always. Twitter as a platform encourages mic drops, not discourse, and no social media platform cares, at all (in terms of anything other than visibility of backlash) what or how people say things, as long as they use their platform to say them... that's you too, KZbin. While I find it interesting to have someone point out the specific details of, say, the several Geneva convention violations that Batman engages in during The Dark Knight, I find the allegory of Batman as military industrial complex significantly more interesting than talking about how he the character is kind of a fascist, because, as you so wonderfully pointed out, Batman isn't real. None of these characters are real. None of them care how cool or lame or gay or trans or rich or poor you thing they are. They don't care about anything. They're a mirror you hold up to your own opinions and use as a springboard to feel or thing or do what you were probably going to do anyway, unless you're the rare person (or see the rare performance) that changes the way you think by challenging you. Anyway Twitter is garbage and the internet was a mistake.

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

I cannot believe we've... Evolved? Devolved? From "queer baiting" to "trans baiting". I am so proud of this community...

[@scottblack7182]

"Gwen Stacey...is not a real person" F*cking fantastic 😂.

[@MazDance]

You know it is interesting, like you I was always a bit annoyed at people who fiercely debate imaginary characters identities or ideas. It always confused me as to why but I do think you've hit the nail on the head, or at least it makes sense to me, by saying people look to these stories for instruction and that removes a lot of nuance and allegory. Thank you I've just found your channel but I'm finding your thoughts very insightful!

[@devononair]

I think it's unhealthy to think that movies can provide answers. Instead they actually provide questions. There is no answer to whether this character is trans in the movie. Instead the movie gives us questions, such as, "what does it mean to be queer and have a relationship with your parents?" "How do queer people experience the world differently to non-queer people?" and so on.

[@JAGomez]

"Only SpiderPunk can do that" might be my favorite sign off or closing line so far. Chef's kiss.

[@electric_whelk1653]

Trans woman here. Across the Spiderverse is the most any story has spoken to my experience of queerness and transness, and I think that the fact that Gwen Stacy is not explicitly trans is a huge part of that, for two reasons First, a big part of queerness as a form of marginalization is that is not (strictly) externally visible or comprehendible. You aren't raised in its culture and you can't effortlessly identify it in others around you. I didn't understand transness as a concept at all until my early 20s. My "gender journey" (lol) is five years of hormones preceded by a lifetime in which transness, although everywhere in my life, was only ever... well, subtext. For me, at least, there's an inherent honesty in subtextual queerness that textual queerness, regardless of how good it is as "representation", can't quite hit. Second, a lot of the most significant transness in the film comes across not via the identity of one character but by the interaction of characters with one another as they resolve a very thematically rich story that touches on much more than gender. The scene where Gwen and Miles catch up while slinging through New York had me weeping, because it was a horrifingly perfect recreation of a daydream I forgot I used to have... pretty much every other day as a kid. But Miles Morales is 50% of that scene, and is every bit as important as Gwen to its ability to express the joy of connection in an alienating world, and nothing in the film implies him to be trans. If Gwen was unequivocally a trans character, her trans-ness and her... uh... spider-ness would be two different things, and that would be a spider moment only lent some bittersweetness by involving a trans character. As is, though, it's so much less definite than that, and so much stronger for it. And indeed one of the most cathartic trans moments in the film IS Miles's - he basically goes through the arc of every trans girl who's ever joined a lesbian social group only to find out that it's full of TERFs lol. If transness had been just Gwen's domain, and not something baked thoroughly into a film about weird children finding community and reckoning with the toxicity and trauma that inhabits those spaces, the film would've been massively kneecapped in its ability to explore trans themes.

[@themorbidzoo]

Wonderful, thanks for this 💕

[@MarkWampler]

God I love this

[@axiommoixa542]

[schrödinger's] (spidergwen's) gender is a spectrum 👁🏳‍⚧ (love the vid as always ❤)

[@legendswarble2845]

Speaking as a trans person, while I do want more explicit and positive representation, I don't mind Gwen being ambiguous. I can see that it wasn't the intention to make it explicit, but it's a fun headcanon for me personally, and I'm very chill if she stays that way. Spider-Man, like the X-men, has had a long history of being queer coded so I don't mind them leaning into it for the story.

[@robertethanbowman]

Your eyes are entrancing. Anime level.

[@SpellboundWolf]

I don't think any of this matters. At the end of the day, SpiderGwen doesn't exist. She's a cartoon.

[@cupiderstunt]

I'm not a big commenter on KZbin videos, but OMG - THANK YOU!!! This sums up so much of my frustration about modern day social media discourse.

[@themorbidzoo]

Thanks for watching 😊

[@Davis_237]

"Guys you're talking about fictional characters alright? F I C T I O N A L CHARACTERS....Am I getting through to ya at all??"

[@00naruhina]

I do agree with a lot . But I feel that applying logic to stories is a valid way of looking at them, it's how I personally connect with things, seeing logical throughlines in works. I can suspend disbelief for fantasy and all the other impossible things but when established in universe logic contradicts itself it can make a story feel floaty and harder to wrap my head around. If the story can just do anything at any time, it makes it feel lesser to me. But that's just me. I'm glad I found your channel and am enjoying what I see. You do very good work!

[@themorbidzoo]

Sure! It’s fine! I love parsing logics of stories and thinking about what would happen if this or that, it’s just not everything stories can do or are for. Thanks for watching ☺️

[@sunniekinnie]

I really love transgender Gwen headcanon. I don’t wanna argue why , I just see her as trans. Great vid, super underrated! /pos

[@themorbidzoo]

Very allowed. Encouraged, even 💗

[@Ozchuck]

I actually low-key prefer the idea that Gwen Stacey is trans and like the idea that none is making it canon. Trans women are women. Gwen is a woman. End of story. It's actually a little refreshing to have treating her at face value being normalised.

[@Jazlover101]

Trans women aren't real women but okay buddy

[@zerochocolatemilk]

Kat Tsai is the colourist for the scene that everyone was screenshotting at the time and seeing how people to a conspiratorial level where pointing at her scenes was so maddening cause the film aesthetic and the artist personally just have a clear bias for greens pinks and blues it felt so ridiculous to me bc colours don’t have a concrete meaning it’s the context of the work/ the viewer that influences our takes on them let’s be fr yellow doesn’t actually elicit hunger but fast food does yellow is just bright so it’s good for marketing i really enjoy this video cause it’s a more media focused analysis of my growing anger is professionals and educators looking at symbolism in work and assigning concrete meanings of works because of the presence of them in it red can mean blood or lust but sometimes the painting has green on it so red is a smart choice to add next

[@erikabloodaxe2581]

It matters as much if Gwen “is” trans as much as it matters if Miles is black and Puerto Rican. Imagine making a video about how Miles isn’t “really” black or Puerto Rican and that it doesn’t matter if he is. Politics are often downstream of culture and yes, positive representation matters as England is providing daily where basically every progressive idea has gained popularity in recent years while they’re ginning up a genocide on trans people to the point of widespread public hate for us. Being trans isn’t about some “biological reality” other than our bodies belong to our brains and not the other way around. There seems to be a lot of weird anger here at a community starved for representation because Gwen should be “for” all queer people or something but as a queer trans woman I will say bluntly that the trans part of characters is something you can appreciate but they shouldn’t be there to make cis queers feel better about being queer by generifying a specific and semi separate identity that cis queer people have too often used as a stepping stone to their own liberation while leaving us being. Being trans isn’t a metaphor for being a cis queer person.

[@br1na332]

Things are really scary here now for sure. Sending you all the love, support, and solidarity. The difference is that the movie and source material explicitly and implicitly state those aspects of Miles, while there is no explicit assertion of Gwen being cis or trans. Nothing and noone can stop us from reading her as trans and that being meaningful. The video is talking about fictional 'facts' and arguing about them, not being against discussing interpretations. Like, folx in our communities doing the transphobic 'everyone in Holywood is trans' pseudoscience with measuring a cartoon character's dimensions is scary, regardless.

[@nunyabiznes7446]

My god. I had forgotten what critical thinking sounded like online.

[@JTRose2398]

That ‘one’ flag being compared to Myles’ suit 2:29 😭😂

[@MrGhosty0091]

I didn't notice any coding or anything, just color palettes that match/respond to the scene each of the various characters are currently experiencing (like how spiderpunk looks like the old school punk zines when he's being is his most "punk". I also don't really care if it was coded or actually trans or any other thing, but if it helps trans folks feel seen and supported then I'm 100% on board. I was a fan of the XMen growing up and they were allegorical with the broad spectrum of alienation and judgement that teenagers experience, the fact it was such a broad allegory meant that it could mean different things to different people when applied to their personal life experience. I grew up during the time when you didn't tell people you were into comics/games/etc unless you knew for sure they also were into it because it would mean social ostracization. So having the XMen helped me make sense of the fact that I was just different, and there was plenty of room under the umbrella of association for queer and minorities to also see themselves reflected as well. We don't need to know these things definitively, and I don't even care whether or not this is another example of cynical corporate pandering. All the matters is that humans can feel some sort of connection with the art that maybe, even if just a tiny bit, makes them feel like life isn't horrible and burning down around us for a few minutes of screen time. Really interesting thoughts here, very good watch. Thank you for your work.

[@bearship9]

You are the most lucid of us, thank you! Also the Myles uniform = nazist is just hystericaly funny to me

[@josiadorthestrong1031]

I think there is less evidence within the context of the film to prove that Gwen is cis than that she is trans. People automatically assume cis as the default, so any deviation from that needs to be explicit with clear cut proof to be even considered. Even then, you will have denial. See Bridget from Guilty Gear.

[@malum9478]

if she didn't have the flag in her room there'd be essentially no proof lmao. and well cis is the default, as in: the vast majority of people are cisgender. that's partially why it's so insidious that conservatives go after trans athletes cuz like...there's maybe 4. _anywhere._ and none of them are winning anything. yet they act like it's some existential threat to whatever the fuck. regardless, there's no more evidence saying she's trans than there is saying she's a quarter black(after all her taste in men mirrors black women). the point is that she's not _real_ and it makes far more sense to simply say that she's a positive queer/trans allegory and engage with what that means to you as art than it does in making shit up about her shoulders or whatever. and why would anyone even want an "ambiguous" trans spiderperson? when we get the REAL first trans spiderperson, i want it to be explicitly so. not in a "5-o-clock shadow gorilla hon" type of way, but in a "blue hair and pronouns" type of way.

[@themorbidzoo]

You’re both right

[@innocenceUnknown]

This argument has about as much validity as claiming Sub-Zero and Scorpion are gay lovers, its all in how you wanna interpret it and see it.

[@shmovinnn]

great video!! love the way you managed to put this into words

[@aspacelex]

Duh, her name is Gwen.

[@PlayNiceFolks]

Please explain that to me.

[@PlayNiceFolks]

Google has not helped: Gwen is a Welsh feminine given name meaning "white, holy". It can be a shortened form of Gwenhwyfar (Guinevere) or other names beginning with the same element, such as: Gwenhael, Gwenael, Gwenvael, Gwenaelle. Gwenda (explained as a compound of gwen "white, pure, blessed, holy" + da "good, well")

[@malum9478]

so true bestie

[@PlayNiceFolks]

@@malum9478 YOU. explain to me what is meant by this comment. Is it pro or anti anything? Help?!

[@themorbidzoo]

Lol I think it may be a (pro) reference to how trans girls always pick names that, to paraphrase a tweet about it, were last used by WW1 combat nurses. That’s how I choose to interpret it anyway

[@sdm3545]

Gwen is trans in the same way piccolo is black

[@BOGOworms4sale]

The answer is yes because we, the trans community, called dibs

[@jq5176]

I do find the end of the video response to people searching for evidence towards trans gwen coding to be unempathetic, in the very least. While, if I’m being honest, as a trans woman gwen’s trans/queer affectations do very little for me, I also think it’s a bit gauche to say that trans girls looking for substance that make a character more relatable and uplifting to them-looking for traits that they (we) themselves are stigmatized for-makes trans women just like terfs. the reason hyperbole is used ought to be taken into context of a discourse that writ large is suspicious of the transfeminine figure and transfeminine desire. to state boldly, simply, “x is a trans woman” is as much a meme as it is a response to waves of backlash within fandom spaces against transfem identification.

[@jq5176]

I’m all for inspiring more sophistication in ~fandom discourse wank~ but that’s. Not gonna happen if your best shake at it is wagging your finger and saying “well how terfy of you”.

[@nagyesszep]

helping the robot overlord recommend your video

[@gcolombelli]

3:41 damn, I had to pause to recompose myself after this, thanks for the laughs. It's weird how sometimes it's necessary to point out something so blatantly obvious.

[@davidcastillo1683]

The work you do is seriously next level. I can't wait for your analysis of Blue Beetle. "Why Blue Beetle eating machacado with egg is proof positive he's Mexican enough to be mentioned in the same breath as Cantinflas." (Kidding; I think) PS: lol at the FEE jab. It's even funnier when you read his reply. He has the personality of a rostrum.

[@themorbidzoo]

😂😂

[@br1na332]

OK. This was everything. I am blissfully off twitter so I missed the whole doing transphobic 'science' on Gwen for 'progressiveness'. I'm transfemme and think Gwen is great, regardless. The fact that she can be read as trans is great, but the die hard arguments are wild. Between your distillation and extrapolation of the impetus behind Clerks and 'Gwen is trans' I am hooked! It's so refreshing to see a deeper and more honest discussion about art. The social media reaction definitely pushes people into more reactionary spaces. One of the reason I got off twitter and active social media in general was because it was making an angry tenderqueer. My particular blend of neurodivergences make me particularly easy to influence and seeing myself caught up and terrified of puritanical attacks, especially seeing those within marginalised communities for the minimal stuff that could either be left or simply quested/ called our without the intensity of a thousand suns, was awful and did nothing for my mental health. Lastly, I'm really intrigued about your preferring ATSV to the first one. I found the first a much tighter story that gave all the characters space to breathe and have motivations, while second one felt really long, but gave little to character and motivation, especially for the heightenedness of everything, even factoring for the multidimensional comicness of it all. The other thing was it seem to me that it was an almost never ending building of epicness and spectacle, which while so much of it was great and it all looks phenomenal, ended up feeling exhausting and a little hollow, as well as outstaying its welcome. In these respects if no others, it reminded me of my experience with Tenet. Surprisingly good, great spectacle, but too much, too long, and, particularly in Tentet's case, overconfident in its meaningfulness. Apologies for the ramble. Seriously enjoying your videos! Thank you

[@VoidBearer]

Really loved the analysis, you're right all over. Also the last line was incredible

[@URnightmares162]

I gotta agree, i do find it annoying though when people seem to gatekeep the idea that gwen is "only cis, and will always be", like she can be trans or not, but it's all fictional. Plus it's more like seeing yourself and/or feeling attached to a character, it makes sense to headcannon characters because of those reasons (in this case, headcannon that gwen os trans). I do that to media, games, and books i love.

[@ElevatorEleven]

There's something kind of offputtingly appropriate about that certain sector of fan getting extremely angry at the possibility of Gwen Stacy being trans/bi/queer-coded/nonbinary/whatever, because the version of Gwen Stacy that they prefer, the "original" or "true" Gwen or whatever you want to call her, the version that came from the first run of the Spiderman comic in 1965, literally only existed so that Spiderman could have a girlfriend. She was a side character at best, and mostly just background or set dressing. She was never important. She never did anything interesting. The only interesting thing about her character was that she suddenly got murdered by Green Goblin, which was really shocking at the time because that kind of thing didn't happen very often in comic stories back then (though of course it also only happened to give character development to her boyfriend.) Gwen Stacy only ever became interesting after she died, and then got brought back as a clone or alternate universe version or whatever in subsequent stories by other writers. In other words, the people who are really angry about Gwen possibly being trans because that's not true to the original character are explicitly saying they want Gwen Stacy to be a boring non-entity who exists only to be an accessory to the male protagonist to prove that the male protagonist isn't gay. They want her to go back to the kitchen where she belongs.

[@Xxepicvortex360]

If gwen would be trans them MILES IS A NA-

[@cthulhuwu_]

Good take, probably the only good take I've seen on the topic. Fwiw I am cis and queer and when I saw That Scene my brain instantly went "oh we're doing trans allegory now." Doesn't necessarily mean she has to be trans, but that's the fun thing about interpreting art.

[@HarumiRose]

I wasn't expecting to love this so much. I'm very conflicted and confused and ... there's a little nugget inside my brain telling me there's something wrong here but ... _[shrugs]_ I guess I'm just conditioned to be paranoid. Loved it.

[@anonymous99632]

I always thought that Peter from Gwen's universe was trans and she was supportive ally but this makes sense too.

[@tothestd4222]

I love this take. Very interesting video & food for thought. I do want to continue to use Gwen’s character as a tool to hold conversations about trans issues and I think the blunt statement “Gwen is trans” is can serve as a good opener for that.

[@isabelholmberg9904]

You are SO good at articulating everything that I want to say

[@ajplays-gamesandmusic4568]

Puppeteer when asked if a particular Muppet is Gay/Trans etc... "That character is a puppet, they aren't real."

[@allenw1742]

great video : P looking forward to finishing elden ring and AOT so I can watch those two too!

[@Justjandy]

My new favorite video essayist! I love your work. Can you point me to any of your writing?

[@urallnutz5294]

Next social media trashfire debate: "Gwen is a real person"

[@ShutItKyle]

"Leave Gwen Stacy Alone" June, 1973 - Current

[@nebula_em6749]

Wonderful analysis! AND its about Spiderverse! I love your videos! Thank you for making them

[@themorbidzoo]

Thank *you* 😊

[@sangdrako]

Batman can be read as a gay alegory in a weird way. How did I get that reading? Not from me, but from the GAY GRANDADDY VOICE of Batman - Kevin Conroy. That's how he was able to create the voice in his head. I don't care that Batman is or isn't gay - it is the allegory that he saw and considering the result I praise that reading.

[@br1na332]

Midnighter also exists as an interpretation of Batman who is gay

[@ArtFreak17]

I'm thinking about how I've started to use the term "applicability" more than "allegory", for the last while. And it helps allow for some nuances and contradictory ideas coexist in a work. Because sometimes when we try to shave something down to "this is an allegory for Phenomena/Experience"... it tends to fall apart under enough scrutiny. I'm blending a few different essays/analyses here - but like I think about stuff like how works like Beastars and Zootopia get into some really sticky territory if one makes an absolute statement like "this IS a racism allegory". Stuff like how loaded the term "predator" is upon inspection and how that might not be a great association for a /purely/ allegorical reading, here. But one can find applicability in these stories to the subject and see certain experiences and themes that affect various groups of people. There's a reason why X-Men feels applicable to many different kinds of axes of discrimination (queerness, race, disability... it goes on). Thinking about stuff like Wandering Paths' blog post titled "Allegory, No! Applicability, Yes!". Mostly about stuff like people seeing WW1/PTSD themes being applicable to readings of LOTR. Often supported by the fact Tolkein had those experiences in his personal history, despite what he's actually stated about the subject.

[@falseprofit9801]

5:10 spoke to my soul, dude. Was a massive Star Wars kid growing up - still am. And the sheer amount of garbage videos on this website "chronicling" the "Facts You Didn't Know About The Star Wars Universe" makes me so frustrated. Star Wars isn't real. It's not even real*istic*. I'm much more interested in knowing the thoughts & history of what a particular author/team was thinking about when they wrote x/y/z Star Wars book than I am endlessly arguing about who's the smartest general and why do Star Destroyers look like that.

[@nyaccoon]

i agree that she is an allegory on transness/queerness in a world that doesn't except you for who you are but also i would genuinely like it if gwen were trans it would just make me feel very seen as a trans person to have a trans superhero character from a major picture from a franchise that i genuinely love

[@Sarahmint]

My interpretation is that Gwen has pink colors bc she's a girl and the other Spider-Man using pink close to red and it's the artists painting the beautiful background making their mark as trans. It's the artist that wants to be heard, remembered, and a signature in cinematic history "I was here" I think that's a beautiful thing

[@masscreationbroadcasts]

3:35 This is giving me real "Miles Morales is not Hispanic because he's fictional and Hispanic people are not fictional" vibes. You've simultaneously killed every conversation about any character because fiction, lmao. Impressive.

[@IAMA1]

Not really... Miles' hispanic heritage is addressed explicitly in the text of both the movies and the comics. I don't even need to bring up a scene since his name is literally Morales. Gwen's status as trans or not ISN'T explicitly stated, so any discussion around it involves interpretation of info provided by the text. 3:35 is just the creator reminding us that something that not provided by the text being argued so heavily, as if there are real world facts to dispute, is crazy. She isn't killing the ability to discuss interpretations of and how people can relate to fictional characters, she's saying that the unclear biological "facts" of a cartoon shouldn't be culture warred over.

[@masscreationbroadcasts]

@@IAMA1 I didn't know that hallucinations are a clear and shut case and that colours = hard evidence.

[@IAMA1]

@@masscreationbroadcasts Is that addressing anything I said? Cause I can't tell

[@L337Koala]

Amazingly well said. Fantastic video.

[@parthasarathipanda4571]

1:10 man what a heartfelt apology 😂😂

[@admorewarhammer5141]

I've never been more excited for a video

[@thequeenofswords7230]

Really good video.

[@ULTRAOutdoorsman]

What if Miles Morales is trans

[@br1na332]

You know, if that was an episode I might actually watch What If?

[@kidkangaroo5213]

So basically people arguing about her being trans, are just inadvertently making a variation of the thermian argument?

[@themorbidzoo]

Yessss and thereby undercutting the subversiveness of the coding to begin with imo

[@Millie-Million]

Here's the thing though, fiction can still have real life consequences. We see an openly queer characters in media and it helps people in the real world feel seen and heard. It can help educate children who may not have accesses to that education in the school system. Gwen isn't real, but her story can still affect real people. Media can help with the acceptance of real marginalized groups.

[@br1na332]

100% she's not saying that is the case just that arguing about the 'facts' is redundant. Interpretat and discuss art as it is meaningful to you, but don't get caught in a pointless argument over facts like the people here (not you) who clearly didn't watch the video and left a comment because they are transphobic.

[@kpcook305]

The x men equivalence nailed it i think. I heard this once, "all x men are queer except scott summers" haha, but I alwaus figured a differrnt time you could say that all x men are POC. You sre a absolutely right, fictional narrative allow the writer to exolore allegorical ideas or experienced without beholding themselves to fictional "facts". Having said that, representation is nice for queer and trans people in an increasingly hostile world, so i dont fault trans people for arguing the fact even if it doesnt move the needle for real world politics. Maybe one day we will have an explicitly trans spiderman...

[@themorbidzoo]

100%, I endorse any interpretation of any character as whatever that audience member sees as relatable. My specific issue here is with how social media forces us to truncate otherwise thoughtful and nuanced ideas. I am very pro trans-Gwen :)

[@RobExNihilo]

I need people in my life who talk some goddamn sense like this.

[@themorbidzoo]

Happy to stand in until they show up 🙏😁 Thanks for the watch!

[@transagentcooper8041]

"Shes not real" Well...yea, ofc shes fictional. But we can make definitive statements about what a fictional character is within a work. Gwen is white, is a teenager, is a musician, is american, is the child of a cop, etc. Miles is afro-latino, hes a teenager, he's a Spider-Man. If i said any of those, thered be no argument, especially given how important some of those aspects, such as ethnicity, are to those characters respectively and to the audience in the form of representation, but if I say shes trans or a trans allegory, thats where we get the "shes not real" line. Im well aware shes not real. Yes, aspects of her are open to interpretation, but not every aspect Speaking as trans person, I do not see her as trans but her story as a great trans allegory The signifiers that she is trans are the color used in certain scenes, flags, etc, but...like, we dont all decorate our rooms in pride flags, wear the colors, or have troubled relationships with our parents. Coding like this leads cis-het folk to believe certain signifiers point to being trans, rather than identity, and it can lead many trans folks to thinking their identities are invalid without certain signifiers (lord knows i went threw this and have seen people got thru it). And why do we not extrapolate the exact same themes of identity around Miles from the first movie to proclaim him trans? Why did we need to have flags and cops (ugh) with pride flags on their badges to find this meaning? And why do we fight this hard for "trans stories" told by cis authors/filmmakers and not trans stories told by trans authors/filmmakers?

[@notthis9586]

When I first heard she was maybe trans, I went "Oh they're transitioning Gwen to a boy? I kinda see it... slightly more masculine hair cut now, gender neutral converse as a pose to more fem-coded ballet slippers... and maybe being a "spider MAN" is like somehow a "canon event" in the story's logic? Wouldn't that be weird and messy and fun to unpack!" I concede I was wrong... the color theory is right there on second watch, but it was a fun idea to me XD

[@dungeonmunky]

Ugh, this video gives me VITALITY, THANK YOU

[@cookieDaXapper]

....once they gets their hooks into you, they can draw you around by the nose and whatever is done by them for you sinks the hook in ever so much deeper, .......

[@BenBoyee]

I'm not sure that Gwen is trans. If the development were out-and-out confirmed later I wouldn't be surprised but as of right now I think she's a cis woman, mainly because I feel she's a (mostly) straitlaced interpretation of the source material where as far as I'm aware, she is. That being said, the spider-man story (hell, the whole masked vigilante trope in general) could easily be spun into an LGBTQ-coded story quite well. I personally find a lot of super hero narratives that share this coding personally fitting into either a "coming of age" or "self-discovery" angle due to my own projection. And honestly? I'm glad this can be interpreted loosely. It means we can approach and discuss this with folks from all walks of life. Well, at least we can as long as we don't overreact to differing points of view. And good luck with that. Still gonna try tho.

[@BenBoyee]

Also wrote the above comment halfway through watching the video. Dagnabbit I'm subconsciously part of the online discourse problem

[@AA-cf4es]

A real women. There's only one kind of woman.

[@br1na332]

​@@AA-cf4esExactly! Someone who says they are one. I'm so glad we agree, sweetie.

[@limb-o7180]

idk if she is (I haven't watched the movie yet) but good trans representation in media is great to see either way (e.g. Bridget from guilty gear strive). also, tuber reaction thumbnail lol

[@themorbidzoo]

💯💯

[@axolofa]

I understand what you're saying (I'm pretty sure), but for me, it's just as simple as I am trans, and I would like a character who I resonate with and see myself in to also be trans. I get it, art is what we make of it, and we don't need a giant glowing sign to come on screen to tell us how to feel for it to be valid, but just wanting a superhero who looks and is like you is a very reasonable request I feel.

[@themorbidzoo]

Completely 💯

[@RaspberryPastry]

1:01 I fucking forgot about this scene, the fact that he apologizes kills me

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

That was on point.

[@TheAlanRaptor]

It's actually not impossible to ascertain facts about Gwen Stacy just because she's fictional. We could speak with the people writing her character to find things out about her fictional biography. Even without access to that, we have the text of the fictional story she's in and come to conclusions about the story and her part in it. Although these aren't as concrete as answers from the person who is the author of her fiction and character.

[@Alexander_Stern1]

Getting hung up on Spider-Gwen’s gender and/or gender identity is like getting hung up on whether it makes “sense” in the fictional world of Spider-Man that a character Peter Parker didn’t even meet until well after he’d been Spider-Man for years would have been bitten instead. They’re make believe people. They can be whatever the creators want them to be.

[@angrycat1232]

Like, the whole point of the film is that art has no "canonical" answer, how did people miss that?

[@Grogeous_Maximus]

Because many people, unfortunately don't like interpreting, and think there has to be a right and wrong answer to everything. It probably doesn't help that our factory schools doesn't exactly reward out of the box thinking.

[@wrinklchu]

i don’t think the character herself is trans, but what her character arc represents is a mirror of transness. edit: just rewatched the video and this is literally her viewpoint

[@foolishgamer99]

They didn’t include any solid info in the movie, but I’m pretty sure people behind the movie said you can consider her trans if you want

[@TheAlanRaptor]

NO! Youre telling me that the cartoon chatacter i can only see by viewing a screen is fictional!?

[@admorewarhammer5141]

mommy has told me the objectively correct thing to think, i can now form an opinion

[@ItsTheFizz]

Spider-Gwen is trans in the same way that Dorothy Gale is gay... Icons fill voids in representation and I'm not going to yuck anyone's yum...

[@dougantelope5013]

hottest take of all, the truth

[@half-death8095]

I hate the frame rate, literally gives me headaches

[@yeemcgee8149]

Love both movies but definitely think the first one is still better. Despite introducing super fun new spider peeps and a cool new villain the whole last 30 minutes felt like a trailer for the next movie with no payoff which really bummed me out because I was rocking w the plot and it feels like they turned it off to do a preview for a sequel I was already gonna watch

[@paulhermann2956]

Banger vid!

[@Randomaccount9470]

Just coz someone is not a "bigot" or shows support to a group does not make them a member With the statements of the twitter thread its like saying a white person that is pro BLM and has family members pro BLM makes them black

[@tetra-doesnt-laugh]

Is there a "this is not a pipe" for movies?

[@damonschwartz3784]

I hope that the creators of the movie never confirm Gwen's gender idenity one way or another. I can't imagine a scenario in which they confirm Gwen's gender identity without it being forced and corny. The beauty of her story is how it can be interpreted in so many ways. When I saw the scene where Gwen reconciles with her dad, I applied color theory logic to it thinking that pink represented love and blue represented sadness and despair. All of those emotions tied into her talking about not being able to save the ones she loves. Some people took it as the trans colors being used to reinfirce the allegory. Whats amazing is that we could all be right in a way! If people want her to be cis like in the comics, let them. If people want her to be trans, let them! Why does the choice need to be taken away from the audience for the sake of settling what's canon? Thats lame. Twitter has a knack for oversimplifying complex conversations.

[@themorbidzoo]

👏🏼

[@belindaluna2067]

>I can't imagine a scenario in which they confirm Gwen's gender identity without it being forced and corny. I can. You can have her and Miles hanging out and talking after everything's dealt with in Beyond, have her go "Oh, got to take my estrogen/anti-androgen" and then have her and Miles just continue the conversation without drawing attention to it. If that's what you wanted to do, it'd be pretty simple.

[@damonschwartz3784]

@belindaluna2067 That's actually not a bad idea. I still would rather not have her gender identity revealed. There's a divide between people who think she's cis like she was in the comics and people that think she's trans. I don't think either side should should have their interpretation invalidated. Gwen's gender identity was never a detail that proved itself to be essential to the story, so settling the debate and taking the audience's choice away is unnecessary even if it's done subtly. That being said, if there was any way to reveal Gwen being trans, this would be the best way to do it.

[@belindaluna2067]

@@damonschwartz3784 I personally care more about trans people having some canon representation that they pretty much never get than about the audience getting to choose what they think it is. Especially since a lot of cis people who are uncomfortable with trans folks will choose erasure over the other option. That's me, though. And...I'll be real, I would love to see some bigoted heads pop over a reveal like that.

[@damonschwartz3784]

@belindaluna2067 I want trans people to have representation too, but I'm not so sure that retroactively making a character that's always been cis into a trans character is the best idea. If they do have trans representation in the next movie, I think making a new character would be a better option. People usually get protective of pre-established characters if changes are made to them. It's why many people have a disdain for remakes and reboots. Creating a new character that's trans would only create outrage for transphobes (and fuck them). Making Gwen trans would create outrage for many fans who were attached to the comics (some of which may be bigots for sure, others may simply be pissed that they deviated from the source material which is not inherently bigoted). I don't think they should keep Gwen's gender identity ambiguous because I don't want trans representation. I think they should implement a better and more creative way to represent trans people in the form of a new character. At the end of the day, though, if Gwen does turn out to be trans, the movie will still be great. Whichever decision the creators make, I'm sure it will be the right one. 🙂

[@natorian628]

I have watched a few of your videos today. I apologize to myself because it was a giant waste of time.