The Philosophy of Hellraiser

[@CJ-Jones]

Thomasin is an artist of pain, and her medium is claws.

[@birdbrainiac]

and teeth

[@GloriaDrozd]

Incredible. SUBSCRIBED.

[@CJ-Jones]

@@birdbrainiac yes definitely and teeth.

[@RuSosan]

He has such sights to show us! 😼

[@swissarmyknight4306]

There is a sound at the center of the world, Joey, a sound like adorable kitty claws through flesh.

[@RafaelSantos-q3n]

Your cat biting the shit out of your fingers when you were talking bout humans willingly putting themselves through pain was masterful, 10/10, love their acting choices.

[@NextLineIsMine]

So perfect, to me cats transcend human moral visions in amazing ways. One moment I see my cat in ecstatic bliss at the simple pleasure of having a good stretch in a sunny spot. In another moment I see it's intense delight in drawing out the suffering of a mouse it has caught for as long as possible, giving it brief moments to hope it has escaped only to recapture it.

[@antonydrossos5719]

...I just call my cat "You little psychopath..."

[@BretRBoulter]

That's the whole thing with furry purry bitey clawey cats, pain and pleasure indistinguishable. Cats are gods, trying to teach us.

[@schmuelking1535]

@@BretRBoulter particularly when you consider that biting is their way of kissing

[@mridlon1634]

You know, there’s this interesting thing about male cats… And it really sucks for female cats.

[@serenedoge9920]

“We have such sights to show you.” It’s right there on the tin, really. That’s not a threat. It’s a *_joyous invitation._*

[@sub-jec-tiv]

Yeah for sure, they’re angels. They’re just.. yknow. Really, really kinky.

[@kyleb5927]

Every hellraiser piece of literature ends with a happy ending when you think about it.

[@singletona082]

@@kyleb5927 Considering the amount of... splatter that often needs cleaning up? ....I hate that you're right.

[@crownedcrow7745]

That quote is all you need to know the whole series is just a recruiting tool for the bdsm community looking for more masochists.

[@erynblackbriar7008]

The focus on sensation is what most people don't get. That's why the remakes ending made me emotional: the cenobites are appalled because the protagonist chooses to bear the guilt for her actions. A being purely bent on pain and suffering should be satisfied, but they're not because guilt is purely intellectual, it's a self imposed torture born of thought.

[@OhShitSeriously]

And a rejection of any hope of expiation, which is one aspect of why some ascetics also mortify. It's a form of suffering they genuinely aren't equipped by even their vast experience to understand. That's a really insightful point.

[@animeotaku307]

Also ties in with Riley’s addiction. While we don’t know how she first started or why, common reasons include seeking out sensations or to dull the pain (physical or emotional). And what the cenobites were offering her was essentially the latter; bringing her brother back to dull the grief and guilt that came from his death, and making all the lives lost along the way mean something. But, similar to drugs, it wouldn’t actually fix anything. It’s heavily implied that he would come back wrong, twisted in some way that would just cause more harm. The only path forward to truly heal is for Riley to accept that he’s gone and the pain she’s caused others along the way.

[@justinrivera1618]

Wait, they were appalled? To me it made no difference what configuration they chose because at the end of the day they’re still experiencing the sensation of pain and suffering after all your brain is a physical device.

[@chavesa5]

​@@justinrivera1618 Agreed they weren't really appalled, they just said that Riley made her choice, implying that all of us choose some version of their worship -- the only difference in the movie is that some idiots try to go right to the source and think it will work out better for them that way.

[@MrAlice613]

@@justinrivera1618 Yeah, I agree with @chavesa5, they definitely weren't appalled, they were acknowledging her for the form of suffering that she chose to bear. And it is a form of suffering, because she will always have the doubt that she made the wrong choice, and that guilt will always haunt her. imo, Riley has become a Cenobite in her own way simply by making that choice. She simply became a Cenobite of spiritual suffering rather than physical. She chose the Lament Configuration, lowest of the seven orders. But if we draw from Kabbalah and look at the ten emanations of the sefirot, the lowest emanation, Malkhut, dedicated to the material world, contains within itself the nature of Kether, the highest emanation of unknowable divinity, and vice versa.

[@connerblank5069]

The real horror of Hellraisers was never "These people exist, and _they might come for you~"_ It was always supposed to be a more existential "There are people who _want this,_ and with the right circumstance, it _could be you."_

[@J.Soffer]

Yes.

[@likelovehahawow]

Maybe the real existential horror is the friends we made along the way

[@nohandlemebruh]

​@@likelovehahawow Freaky friends

[@anatta467]

temptation

[@SamuelBlack84]

The scariest thing of all is knowing what you really want

[@davidjsaul]

One of the things I disliked most about some of the sequels was studios making the cenobites basically cookie cutter slasher villains instead of them being creatures just doing their job and only going after those who seek them. One of my favourite scenes in the series is in Hellbound when Pinhead stops the cenobites going after the mute girl because it wasn't her who was actually seeking them despite her solving the box.

[@skylarsaysstuff]

That's my favorite scene too!

[@RosesTeaAndASD]

Same. I liked how it once again highlighted that they followed rules, not killed indiscriminately.

[@mrspeigel3593]

They cenobites are poster children fir lawful evil (or should be )

[@singletona082]

It showed that while not behelden to OUR morals.... they have a set of ethics they abide by.

[@PepperCola4242]

"It is not hands that summon us. It is desire."

[@montlejohnbojangles8937]

Legitimately impressed at your ability to read script while being mauled by a tiny monster. Bravo.

[@markanthony1004]

Cats are the true horrors of the world

[@jasonkinzie8835]

Ah, the suffering!

[@Kawamura2]

@@markanthony1004 No, cats are the cute horrors of the world.

[@richietozier7091]

One thing I always found interesting was that Leviathan, the Cenobites' boss, wasn't a god of evil, pain, or death, but of order. Typically in mythology, gods of order are seen as "good" deities who are placed as gods to be followed and worshipped. But in Hellraiser, the ultimate "big bad", so to say, isn't an entity that destroys structures, but one that maintains them

[@Cernunnnos]

There's nothing quite like the tyranny of stasis. If chaos is unlimited potential, order is the complete lack of it. The point of existence where nothing new can ever be.

[@RuSosan]

Yeah, there's plenty of evil order in fiction. Faustian bargains and hell's hierarchy are very orderly in them ye oldeny books and tales. Skynet represents absolute order. The Machine God from World of Darkness does as well. (As do plenty of other equally horrific Machine Gods in fantasy/Sci-Fi.) The Borg from Star Trek and the entity from the Movie "Virus" are great examples of how horrific order can be when it's forced upon us chaotic little fleshbags. I also think The Cube, with all it's _seeming_ gore trap "randomness" represents order too, completely uncaring and beyond our reasoning just as equally extreme chaos (like Event Horizon) would be.

[@te9591]

Exactly, in addition Leviathan kind of has an extra terrestrial element to it. And yes, hells chain of command is about obedience and control not chaos and freedom. Hell is not shown to be a burning lake and Leviathan likes humans to make it's vintage torture devices. In addition, the cenobites, therefore, act like draconian prison wardens. It's a macabre prison system.

[@joeyj6808]

Lawful Evil is still evil.

[@viciouzvalentine4993]

thats because Life is chaotic. The cenobite God is anti-Life. anti-chaos. It's actually quite beautiful. Clive being a homosexual has a profound understanding of his homosexuality. I feel as though he was making a very controversial statement but he does it so well - it flies right over most peoples head . I believe- he s stating that religion is anti-life , anti-freedom. constraining life to order, warps it into something that is grotesque and abominable in attempt to ascend the flesh.

[@ClichéGuevara-2814]

When I was at theatre school in the early 90's, I was assigned a prop making task of carving a wooden dagger from a piece of 1" x 4" pine. We were given a template to trace the design onto the wood, and after that we were on our own. This bears relevance. My good friend was a huge Clive Barker fan, and had just purchased a copy of Weaveworld in anticipation of Barker's appearance at a local book store for a signing & sales . I stood in line beside him as he had his book signed, and then suddenly I was there, facing him, with nothing in my hands. Clive looked at me and i reached into my backpack and produced the piece of wood, with the dagger drawn on it. "Never signed one of these before.", he offered. I'd like to think that, all these years later, he still hasn't been asked to sign a small piece of wood with a dagger drawn on it. That's all.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

sweeeeet

[@magpieMOB]

Well, that's utterly charming - well done 😃

[@ND-nr6mx]

My car's door handle broke off in the winter when my brother was trying to get it open, the door being frozen shut. Then in the summer I was at a music festival with the chance to meet one of my favorite bands but having brought nothing to be signed, so I presented them with the door handle. I still have it somewhere.

[@lindseysgreencanvas]

That's so awesome! I'm a huge Clive Barker fan, Weaveworld is probably my second most favorite book by him, Imajica is absolutely the first. But wow, what an incredible memory to have. I met George Romero, (also George RR Martin but that was way back in 2004), and getting to meet Barker would probably tie with Romero.

[@ianbyrne465]

@@lindseysgreencanvasI’ve got a copy of Imajica on my shelf! Haven’t gotten around to reading it yet, unfortunately, but I will one day

[@ianbyrne465]

Hellraiser is my favorite cosmic horror. Because unlike alot of it, it doesn’t just ape Lovecraft’s visual styles and themes. Clive Barker actually considered his own fears and philosophies and made something that fit into that. Lovecraft was terrified of the concept of an indifferent universe, one that was beyond his comprehension, just as he was afraid of rot and oceanic creatures, and that all informed his writing. Barker made a universe that is dictated by pain and the blending of sensation beyond all reason. Brutal order and hedonistic stagnation in a way that is not indifferent, but *joyous.* The cenobite are only concerned with who chooses to join them, they themselves were once humans who sought out this edge of sensation. It’s a different form of cosmic existentialism and I love it for that.

[@firstnamelastname7244]

Good comment but I wouldn't consider Hellraiser cosmic horror because it isn't cosmic in scale, even if the cenobites and their realm are kind of lovecraftian.

[@SamuelBlack84]

I've never been a fan of Lovecraft personally Tentacles, people going mad I find it rather tedious but that's just me

[@mr.dirtydan3338]

I think Lovecraft was really scared of society around him, black people, gay people, etc. I think that is what his stories attempt to personify, his fear of what he saw as "unknown"

[@Hypogean7]

@@mr.dirtydan3338 AND he was afraid of the ocean, rot, and an indifferent universe. Lovecraft had a very paranoid and anxious personality.

[@dantesinfernal]

"Pain never happens in a vacuum." Oh yeah? tell that to my Dyson suction injury.

[@BayaRae]

"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die." Hellraiser is a divine comedy, if you think about it.

[@ChartreuseDan]

Now I'm thinking of the cellar doors on Russian Doll. It *was* extremely funny watching Natasha Lyonne tumble face-first to her death like "Those things are a menace!"

[@tastysandwhich]

My favorite Mel Brooks quote

[@GabeBlack]

From that point of view that would make "Jackass" Saturday morning cartoons for children.

[@Neoprenesiren]

I would argue comedy is also about details, how in depth you go into it.

[@SkeletonMurderer]

I've been saying Hellraiser is basically dark comedy for years but everyone looks at me like I'm fucking crazy.

[@jesterlampoon-t1j]

"When you live in pain for so long, it becomes familiar. Familiarity is comforting. And so, I find comfort in my despair."

[@BillZBubb]

The line that sums up the cenobites is ‘explorers on the edge of experience.’ Future Hellraisers need to really meditate on that line.

[@insomniacbritgaming1632]

the new one kinda did, I love how she portrays Pinhead

[@J.Soffer]

I agree. And I agree the new one leans more into that.

[@Halloween111]

Right with the re make's "`Enough` is a myth"

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

When an amazing analysis is so deserving picked up the by the real god - the algorithm - I'm thankful. Thanks for such profoundly insightful analysis.

[@epsech]

I’ve honestly always liked the IDEA and world building of Hellraiser more than the movies themselves, including the original ones. This analysis is just reinforcing in me that there is an absolutely amazing story waiting to be told when the marriage of all of these points come together. Many of them have each element, but I still don’t think we’ve quite gotten the best Hellraiser movie.

[@J.Soffer]

I would agree but then I watched the newest one. ❤

[@thegoblinking279]

Totally agree! Currently my favorite “version” of Hellraiser exists in Peter Mohrbacher’s concept art for the 2022 film. Mohrbacher is known for his Angelarium series, an artbook based around its surreal posthuman figures, so he kind of got a headstart in conceiving what the angels of Hellraiser might eventually reach. I especially really like the Cenobite’s he’s drawn with completely hollowed out skulls- the idea that a person might be able to have their brain scooped out and yet still be alive is just so grotesquely fascinating in that perfect Hellraiser way.

[@neglectfulsausage7689]

@@J.Soffer i'll never watch the newest one because it features a disgusting travesty

[@J.Soffer]

@neglectfulsausage7689 because Doug Bradley isn't in it? It's a movie. Taking it so seriously only prevents you from enjoying life. Go ahead, don't watch it. I'm sure your non binary god will be so happy that you missed out.

[@animeotaku307]

@@neglectfulsausage7689Do I want to know what?

[@roble8943]

I think the biggest issue with how people write the Cernobites is they forget the pretty damn important fact that they seek unlimited pain AND pleasure. They seek extreme sensations of all sorts, not just the negative ones.

[@evilcartmensolo7198]

Agreed, no one not even bdsm people who have a safe word just in case, seek complete Neverending pain. I think it was lost that these people in the movie want sensations that one cannot achieve on earth. The ultimate high, with the deepest low.

[@amandamarinovich6164]

Totally. I think anyone who thinks the cenobytes are evil doesn't understand Clive Barker. He relates to the monstrous. It's always people who are truly evil in his lore

[@NoOne-uh9vu]

@@amandamarinovich6164 Thats because Clive Barker is a victim of post modern deconstruction, inversion and relativism. His metaphysics, theology and understanding of philosophy are not on the same level as his writing skills. My favorite irony is that the cenobites are clearly inspired by what was going on in the deviant bdsm gay scene of that time. I know he probably didn't see it that way back then but the fact that he chose to map this particular facet onto the demons exposes something disturbing about the directed effort to attack the nuclear family by the way of transgressive influences enabled by weak permissive personalities (Julia) entering in through the backdoor . Hellraiser was never more relevant than it is today. Unintentionally Barkers old work makes him look like a great christian writer who was struggling with himself

[@spirit_gun3869]

Then why instead of torture they don't put bigger sexual organs.?

[@thegoblinking279]

@@NoOne-uh9vu You are bonkers, man. Do you want to get fro-yo later?

[@jamesvaughn7477]

"... if you're frightened of dying and you're holding on you'll see devils tearing your life away, but if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth. It's just a matter of how you look at it." “The only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that won't let go of your life: your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away, but they're not punishing you, they're freeing your soul.” ― Meister Eckhart

[@parker469a]

--- Jacob's Ladder

[@brometheusthefirstbro4302]

while i disagree with the idea it is interesting

[@AltairEgo1]

​@@brometheusthefirstbro4302That's fine. Still good philosophical food for thought. Bad memories or moments being crystalized in a sort of quantum eternity does fascinate me as a form of hell though. What Dreams May Come illustrates this perfectly.

[@noided583]

The moment you started tackling the concept of Cenobites NOT being demons, you'd won. Immediate sub. This was beautiful. Definitely going to go on a bingewatch of your content.

[@colbycourter]

I might also add a dash of Faustian bargaining into the mix. Particularly concerning Frank’s expectations of sensual rewards for going to such great lengths to locate and solve the lament configuration.

[@CovaSKT]

Thomasin going absolute goblin mode and you asking them "Can you not?" was hysterical

[@LodyDude]

The part right after when the kitty touched her face was hilarious

[@Aster_Risk]

​@@LodyDudeLike, "Okay, sorry mom."

[@LodyDude]

@@Aster_Risk 😂 love it

[@AGothNamedWednessday]

I always hate when people call them demons, you really hit the nail on the head. I always describe them as BDSM angels because (originally) they don't have malicious intent. Their intent comes off as malicious to _us_ but isn't _inherently_ malicious, they bring the euphoria and horror of where extreme pain and pleasure meet, they don't see this as bad, its neutral at least, beautiful at best. I love love love how you talked about Jamie being cast as Pinhead and why she was perfect casting. It's something I haven't really been able to articulate. Thank you so much for recognizing the important influence of Clive's Queerness on Hellraiser, so many people don't take that into account even though its a pivotal part of why Hellraiser _is_

[@darkservantofheaven]

In the words of the lead cinobite priest: "we are explororers in the furthest reaches of experience. Angels to some, Demons to others."

[@magpieMOB]

I think there's even a little more sort of dry humour in The Hellbound Heart, when Frank summons the Cenobites but clearly misunderstood what they're actually all about, and before they get to work on him it almost feels like they're side-eyeing each other as if to say "Did this idiot get a wrong number?". They do make sure to ask "Hey, are you sure?" and Frank's just grasping at straws. It feels like visitors from a hidden plane of sensation giving a collective shrug, I love it. Kafkaesque, maybe? I'm not as critically literate as I'd like to be

[@DGMikeBarker]

They are deranged creatures that think they are right…but most people think they’re right… Also did people see the last HellRaiser??

[@spaceman7019]

Ha, nail on the head.

[@tubian323]

Exactly Pinhead is seen as a villain but Clive Barker wrote the Cenobites as neither good or evil, they just are.

[@cici35official19]

Idk why the Native American saying, “dude the sun is real,” got to me lmao😂

[@hailmammonmoments7568]

Pausing the video two minutes in to breathe a sigh of relief whenever someone acknowledges that the franchise lost its way with part three, not seven or ten.

[@thetalantonx]

11:20 - Holy shit. Subscribed. Hellraiser is my favorite horror franchise because of its explorations in pain, even when in painfully bad movies. I deal with severe chronic pain and there's no escaping it or justifying it, there's just dealing with it or not. But I can, and do, use it as a sort of running tally proving I'm still here and I try to use it as fuel for my art. It's part of that Jungian Magnum Opus, I just happen to have a fairly large helping of a Piece of the Void. "One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star..."

[@TNTales]

Great analysis. I think the only thing I would add is that at least in The Hellbound Heart the cenobites seem to be pioneers of sensation who left behind a guidepost. It says, "if you've reached your limit on what you feel you can sense come this way for the next step." The problem is that pleasure and pain are on a spectrum of sensation. In one sense (pardon) pain is simply overstimulation, too much pleasure. The Cenobites are just able to go farther than humans can on that spectrum but they are happy to let anyone who wants to follow them as far as they can go. But no take backs. So Julia's story and Frank's story are "how far are you willing to go to get the thing you think you want only to realize that you got what you asked for, not what you wanted." Kind of a Monkey's Paw deal.

[@thegaspatthegateway]

nice of them to use safe words, sorta

[@918_xDx]

People open the box the cenos say hello

[@kylegonewild]

@@918_xDx "Man I really love little physical puzzles and trinkets. There's something satisfying about solving them." "Ah, you've solved the puzzle box so you tire of the drudgery of your limited existence and desire to be flayed and hanged from meat hooks!" "...no."

[@caileymarietattoo]

I’m a tattoo artist and when you mention how pain is part of the appeal you were 100% correct. My most loyal and consistent clients are the people who generally enjoy the process of the pain. I like to think it’s a spiritual experience for tattooer and the person being tattooed. Something humans have done as long as we’ve existed and I feel blessed to get to participate in it. The only art that is as permanent as our lives. Very cool video I really enjoyed it 💖

[@teenagebottlerobert]

As someone who has a good few palm size bangers, and two larger ones that were much longer sessions (7 and 9 hrs) I definitely found the longer sessions had moments of disassociation. I am hesitant to call it transcenance more like my brain fully accepting the pain, but yeah, I definitely enjoyed the longer sessions, and I definitely love getting tattooed. I had a full back piece done in one session and i felt like a different person by the end of it...maybe that's just PTSD? 😅

[@necrosadotor]

i hate the pain in longer session, but somehow it's tolerable pain. can't explain it, haven't felt any enjoyment though yet lol. arms felt only relaxing, also they were quite fast to make even when big @@teenagebottlerobert

[@stepbackdeuce1062]

lol my first 2 tattos are right on my left ribcage. that part of my body is covered in ink. my 3rd one is directly on top of my sternum, dead center. 4th is right below that one, and my 5th, but not final tattoo stretches from collarbone to collarbone and runs across my upper chest. the whole pain and identity argument is absolutely relatable.

[@SatanasExMachina]

I have a shirt that says "it's all about the pain, the ink and jewelry are just souvenirs". I identify with that.

[@SatanasExMachina]

@@nevercommentnotevenonce9334 your profile name is false advertisement

[@AbandonedVoid]

As a Stoic, I want to point out that Stoicism is fundamentally incompatible with productivty/grindset/sigma culture. The passionate pursuit of wealth and material success renders one incapable of achieving dispassion. The "Stoics" you see are not genuine, they just take Marcus Aurelius quotes out of context, who also was not technically a Stoic, either.

[@RandolphTheWhite1]

As a lazy Epicurian, who never correctly looks into anything, I stand against everything you just said.

[@seekthevisceral]

@@RandolphTheWhite1 As a Sagittarius, I would like to vaguely remind everyone that everything I stand for can be found on the lid of a snapple.

[@peytonpascual53]

I've always thought that way about Marcus Aurelius. Like how much of a Stoic can he be in a Palace while running a massive empire.

[@raven-sf3di]

She clearly doesn't know what she was talking about when she started ranting about stoicism, the video just became cringe. She doesn't seem to know the difference between the English word stoic and the philosophy of Stoicism

[@RandolphTheWhite1]

@@seekthevisceral As a vegan who still eats meat in secret, certain Snapple flavors do not conform to my dietary guidelines and therefore must chastise all use of Snapple.

[@DeaconRayne]

"How much can you change and get away with it, before you turn into someone else, before it's some kind of murder?" - Richard Silken I'm writing a book. Dystopian fantasy 'mythic-punk' where one of the lead characters has voluntarily had their humanity stripped out of them so that he may bring balance and safety to a world teetering on the edge of oblivion caused by institutionalized morality, greed, and weakness. And I think there is some correlation between that process and the one described by one returning from the heroes journey " changed and enlightened but unrecognizable to yourself and everyone you know". This notion that to save humanity, to save the world, you can't BE part of humanity, you can't BE part of the world but rather exist outside its morality and reason so you can see it clearly. This was really really good.

[@TheStorytellingDad]

Hellraiser was always one of my absolute favorite guilty pleasure movies; the blend of psychological horror and abstract physical horror was just so morbidly satisfying. Also; what a great fkn channel! Just found you out and already subbed, you’re doing great work!

[@TaeyxBlack]

“sensation is the god that supersedes all gods” amazing poetry of words here, and incredibly profound. every religion when stripped to its bare parts deals with humanity’s relationship to sensation. whether we are chasing ecstasy, running from suffering, or trying to rid ourselves completely of our emotional response to either, it all comes down to our sensations.

[@imbombur]

woah

[@InternetCrusader-rb7ls]

Not really. Some religions are about man’s happiness, which is different than pleasure or sensation.

[@Luci-rv1hl]

Hedonism.

[@ghoulishgoober3122]

​@@Luci-rv1hlnot at all but okay

[@Luci-rv1hl]

@@ghoulishgoober3122 lol go look it up

[@silver1340]

10:47 - Not having a reaction to such a scene isn't a sign of stoicism, it's a sign of indifference. And indifference is the death of empathy. Stoicism and pseudo-stoicism; The former is an idea that one may skip from all stages of grief immediately to acceptance, while the latter is yet another disguise of the idea that it's unhealthy to show emotion, because it makes you "weak." Bottling up emotions for too long causes problems, one of which are people that begin to hate the world for it, as they feel victimized.

[@fluffyfishcool226]

I adore Clive Barkers work and am always saddened by how he’s not often talked about more widely in horror circles despite the amount of media that has been inspired by his works; Thank you for this break down- your thematic analysis in this video and several others is fantastic!🦔🦔

[@HorrorbleCWalt]

This has me thinking how so many of his movies end up going down the spiral of become VOD, or Straight To DVD Bad Sequels. Wishmaster, Candyman, Hellraiser, etc. Each of these films are beautifully horrifying genre changers. And after that, they’re all slopped together. I truly believe it’s because these stories shouldn’t need follow-up in movie form. The more sequels you’re granted, the less creative control and influence you get.

[@vintageincolor]

Abarat still has a chokehold on me to this day and I read it when I was 11

[@fluffyfishcool226]

True- SO much of his work is fantastic as stand alone pieces to make you think- candyman lingers in my mind so many years after i've seen it, while the sequels didn't last more than a day (Other than the impact Tony Todd's great performances in each)@@HorrorbleCWalt

[@fluffyfishcool226]

AHHHH ABARAT IS SO GOOD

[@justvibin1447]

​@@vintageincolor Abarat is one of my favorite book series!! I did a Candy cosplay and made a Malingo doll in my senior year of high school.

[@januaryandon2]

"Pain never happens in a vacuum." Wasn't quite ready to hear that today lmao

[@kylegonewild]

Me, spending the rest of my years hiding in the vacuum cleaner to avoid pain

[@Kaipyro67ALT]

The longer I'm on this planet, the more I appreciate Clive Barker's work.

[@K-yu-ko8dv]

I used to have a self harm problem and I used the really bad self harm forums. There's a few people there who have reached an almost celebrity status for just doing it really badly, carving out entire pieces of fat and somehow surviving (for a time at least) and doing it again next week to themselves. So I believe that limit experiences are real in a very physical visceral chemical sense, in which the brain is so fickle and malleable from trauma or even chance that it can actually break and begin to enjoy(or at least pursue) what others would call insane. So to me, the cenobites are less like BDSM and more like shtwt or something

[@K-yu-ko8dv]

see also: people addicted to deliriant drugs

[@sageagainstthemachine656]

The first time I watched hellraiser was before I got clean from self harm and that's definitely how I read the cenobites too. Ironically(??), I was also getting into horror for similar reasons to why I was cutting -- I was depressed and emotionally numb and seeking out anything that could make me feel something

[@VTheMighty]

lolz

[@AdamOwenBrowning]

Your point about deliriants is insanely poignant - diphenhydramine experiences are simply not pleasurable in any way whatsoever. Once, and then never again for 99.5% of people. There is literally not a single pleasurable element to the experience. It's pure terror distilled. Meth abuse can create that unbridled terror, plenty other drugs can but these are untoward and unsought side-effects. I only have experience with two deliriants, datura and DPH, but that's enough to go on to be honest. For most commonly available deliriants, the confusion, sense of displacement and "untowardness" of everything as well as things like entities speaking to you and disappearing, or insects crawling out of your... your everything, that IS the single side-effect these people are chasing. Who would continue to seek OTC sleeping pills to eat an entire packet of them? I thought they simply had something so disturbed inside them that being in any altered state of mind was preferable - perhaps they have no other access to other drugs. Yet, plenty did. Plenty were of an age where they could buy alcohol (18 in my country). This video and your secondary comment made me see they were chasing the limit experience of transcendental fear, pure terror itself. It's a step beyond what my s/h was doing - creating sensation in the absence of sensation. It's seeking the worst sensation possible, in a reliable and repeatable manner. Death by a thousand cuts is not repeatable. DPH abuse is infinitely repeatable - until you send yourself into a psychosis. The DPH delirium is so gripping, so intense, so real that it's hyperreal and becomes the most acutely bizarre and horrifying experience you could've had. The unadulterated terror creates transcendental suffering: a limit experience. (It's sad to see that these self-harm enablement spaces that I saw damage my fellow patients 15 years ago, are now flourishing in places like Twitter. I wish you the best of mental and physical health)

[@FuxkAroundFindOut]

@@AdamOwenBrowningthat’s an odd take, I require a minimum of 400mg Diphenhydramine just to sleep at night because without it I can’t. At all. The insomnia combined with night terrors due to PTSD prevent rest. For me, diphenhydramine feels like a warm, fuzzy hug that slowly powers my brain down like turning off a computer until I reach the point of complete mental retardation and fall into a sleep that’s representative of a coma. Never hallucinations, never itching, just blissfully losing touch with mental faculties until they cease completely.

[@TheForeignersNetwork]

Well, this video just earned you another subscriber. I'm a Buddhist and the religion is very much about how suffering is simply inevitable because you are alive. The ultimate goal of Buddhism is to eliminate suffering, but (at least in Tibetan Buddhism) that doesn't mean that you run away from suffering. Suffering is something that happens because you cling to your body and your ego. If you stop clinging to the self, your mission then becomes to eliminate suffering for others, which actually means that you take on suffering for "yourself" (which is actually just a collection of mental designations). If we can become adept at doing this, then we will attain enlightenment, which is a state that is both transcendent and imminent in a very immediate way.

[@o.o5816]

What I appreciate in this perspective is the point that suffering is an inevitable consequence of existing as a functioning human. What I find lacking is any acknowledgment of the relativity of all forms of suffering and their opposites, such that the utter eradication of one pole entails the extirpation of the other. That's to say, for me at least, suffering has value and its total elimination would be misguided. In terms of the quality of experience, a good moment is only good relative to a moment that is less so. Also, I'm not hedonistic anyway. What I find more important than how good of a time I'm having is the vitality of the organism that I am. I could numb pain and feel incredible pleasure by taking various drugs, or go in the opposite direction like a cenobite, but these actions would tend to break down my body and lower any underlying vitality. _"Suffering is something that happens because you cling to your body and your ego."_ I'm not so sure I get what clinging to the body entails. From my understanding, I _am_ a body, not something riding around inside one. Maybe I don't even want to get the secret, though, since my project isn't to anathematize or eliminate suffering but to accept it as just one necessary aspect of existence. Anyway, good post - very interesting even if I don't agree with everything.

[@AleksoLaĈevalo999]

​@@o.o5816 "What I appreciate in this perspective is the point that suffering is an inevitable consequence of existing as a functioning human." No, this is not what Buddhism claims. Suffering arouses from ignorance - by seeing the world, life and self incorrectly you are suffering. Enlightenment is seeing world and life as it truly is, and in such existence there is still pleasure (which doesn't really matter because all pleasure is fleeting and ultimately doesn't matter but there still is pleasure for enlightened beings). Seeing world as it truly is is being permanently constantly aware that you are not your body, not your brain, not your soul, not your spirit, not even your mind understood as object but rather the activity of living itself. You are a verb not a noun basically. Also viewing all things happening to you just as neutral events that just happen and are not inherently good or bad - so that enlightened beings do not judge things that world gives them. "What I find lacking is any acknowledgment of the relativity of all forms of suffering and their opposites, such that the utter eradication of one pole entails the extirpation of the other." It is very interesting that in modern day Buddhism is showered with criticism of that kind and yet in the ages past nearly nobody in India nor China did thrown such arguments against Buddhism and trust me a lot of people in India and China thrown counterarguments against Buddhism (just not about that). It is quite intuitive to me because... why would eradication of suffering eradicate all pleasure? Like... it does require some special philosophical theory about pleasure and suffering to constitute such belief (that you just can't have the good without the bad because?), a theory that was not held through most of history. "That's to say, for me at least, suffering has value and its total elimination would be misguided." Suffering isn't necessary for humans to survive. It just necessarily arise from the kind of mind that majority of humanity has, that is mind riddled with attachments. "In terms of the quality of experience, a good moment is only good relative to a moment that is less so." Such is philosophical theoretical conjecture. Actual empirical data gathered by asking enlightened people shows that their existence is quite nice and pleasant, way more pleasant than before they had their spiritual enlightenment. "What I find more important than how good of a time I'm having is the vitality of the organism that I am. I could numb pain and feel incredible pleasure by taking various drugs, or go in the opposite direction like a cenobite, but these actions would tend to break down my body and lower any underlying vitality." The enlightened do not think about their vitality, do not think about the state of their body, do not worry that aging is going to make them sick, do not worry that they might die and yet they usually do not partake in any dangerous activities even though they do not think about self preservation. As one (this time actually Daoist, not Buddhist) master once said "You should not think about bad food as bad nor about good food as good. You should eat the good food and discard the bad food without judgment". I feel that just like majority of people your reaction is going to be "but you just can't do that". People very frequently object to Buddhist teachings by saying that Buddhist advice is impractical, wrong or just anti-life because you can't actually follow that advice because it's impossible ect. Like folks feel like Star Wars prequel trilogy is some kind of marvelous critique against Buddhism because it shows how impractical Yodas advises about emotional control are when Anakin just fell in love. All of this "It's impossible" think arouses from not knowing what sitting cross-leged with mind focused on breath can do to human mind. If you practice meditation daily and correctly you are going to attain altered states of awareness and with practice you are going to became capable of achieving and maintaining these states of altered awareness even outside meditation as you are doing your duties. If it is impossible to "think in the way Buddha told people to" it's because it requires mind training through meditation. Also when you are in meditation you are likely to just "realize" that you are not your body nor your mind but the process of living ect. you are going to realize that it's silly to worry about anything and instead you are just going to act cautiously without worrying. We do not need to feel fear in order to not act haphazardly. "I'm not so sure I get what clinging to the body entails. From my understanding, I am a body, not something riding around inside one." You are something happening in connection and contact with your body. You do not ride it, you are the riding. I agree with the more secular view that destruction of the body means that you are no longer happening but that doesn't mean that you are the body or the brain or the soul or the spirit. The necessity of suffering is not absolute. It's not necessary in order to have sensations or to experience pleasure. It's just that when our desires are fulfilled and we are in a place where we wished to be we then want something else. When we achieve that something else then we wish for more or something different. When we are fed, well slept and aren't thirsty we start to crave to be safe and not endangered with death or future violations of our needs. When we are safe we want to be accepted by a group, we are social animals so we crave belonging, a sense of community. When we have community we wish for being respected, for being important, for being exemplar, for being above the rest of our community. We wish to be nobel laureates or furry artists making great porn or top influencers followed by millions or world-renowned doctors or video game designers making masterpieces for ages like Toby Fox or be CEO of some big corporation. When people are on top they seek some other top to be on. Human mind is endlessly seeking if it is muddled with ignorance. Only through enlightenment, spiritual realization can we be free from our needs, otherwise we endlessly seek with always being unhappy. The only ways to real happiness is either enlightenment or being brain in a vat with proper neural stimulators controlling us to only feel bliss and no pain. Otherwise you might survive and even live long, have the "vitality" that you care about, but you won't be happy.

[@2b-coeur]

@@AleksoLaĈevalo999 "You should not think about bad food as bad nor about good food as good. You should eat the good food and discard the bad food without judgment" i love that 😂 My spirituality is mostly informed by mystical Christianity, but it comes to similar conclusions

[@andyodels]

Nicely said, Foreign Network

[@thegaspatthegateway]

heh, nondualist here and yeah, "verbing, not a noun" is a condensed phrase we've used to remind ourself at odd moments. love how that's a thing. Ever play Slay the Princess? We want to propose the term "Breaking the Fifth Wall" for what that experience did for us. Not so much reminding us that we're the audience or even a player outside a microcosmic object of media, but that we're also one in this drama we call "Real Life." Oh yeah, also that part in "A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood" where Mr. Rogers makes eye contact with the camera for like a full minute during that zazen meditation in the diner. The ever-loving Being Seen of it all.

[@gusty7153]

basically the short explanation is that the cenobites are not demons and they do not come to punish the ones that open the box...they come to REWARD the openers with new and more extreme sensations and even state in the first two that pleasure and pain is indistinguishable.

[@kylegonewild]

I feel like the "pleasure and pain is indistinguishable" bit falls a little short. They are absolutely distinguishable in degrees and in a vacuum, triggered by different physical processes. The complex system that is the human neurological and nerve structures leaves open the door for the simultaneous processing of multiple competing inputs. That euphoria or bliss in the face of pain is a defense mechanism. One can trigger the other and they can occur simultaneously but they are most certainly unique sensations.

[@gusty7153]

@@kylegonewild i know. i just mention it because it relates to one of the catchphrases for the cenobites. but like main point i was trying to make is that that the box is meant to be an invitation for people seeking more extreme and otherworldly "pleasures" but geared specifically for masochists

[@ianbyrne465]

@@kylegonewildsee though here’s the thing, the cenobites are not human.

[@SamuelBlack84]

To the Cenobites, they aren't mutually exclusive Experience is valid regardless of what form it takes

[@gusty7153]

@@SamuelBlack84 yes exactly

[@jpaulcrosby]

This analysis was very well thought out. One of your points reminded me of this Thomas Ligotti quote: “Pain is essential. There's nothing else to do, no other way to be. We can call it what we like, say the pain is something else, or part of something else, and never fret about finding it to be otherwise. Finding it untrue. Because pain is essential, it is all there is.”

[@themorbidzoo]

@@jpaulcrosby nice 💯

[@WireMosasaur]

Really enjoyed this video!! Many of the points reminded me of how the Hellraiser comics (of all things) seem to grasp that "human" aspect of the cenobite mindset and horror. They are in fact written as diametrically opposed to the philosophy of the Nightbreed comics, to the point that there's a (kickass) "Hellraiser vs. Nightbreed" series where they are portrayed as eternal enemies and supernatural polar opposites. The Nightbreed (and Rawhead Rex, he's sort of there too) are chaos, animal impulse, that "dark underworld" you mention near the end of the vid, but this is portrayed as something much more warm and natural than the cenobites, who with their adherence to inflicted order, symmetry and (arguably) beauty represent not something inhuman but something "in-animal": Entities that embody all our strange non-animal human concepts and actions-- as you mention-- such as willfully inflicting pain on ourselves and devoting ourselves to immaterial ideals. The Nightbreed/Rawhead Rex and Baphomet are the animal horror of the human taken to an extreme, the cenobites and Leviathan are the human horror of the human taken to an extreme. anyway yeah the comics are ridiculous but also kick ass I can recommend them lol

[@themorbidzoo]

@@WireMosasaur “inanimal” holy wow I love that, gonna use it!

[@heckstar]

I have never watched a hellraiser movie in my life but the ‘lament configuration’ is the coolest fucking name for anything ever and completely redeems the franchise in my eyes

[@mitch5944]

I've only seen the first movie but I liked it, worth the watch imo

[@DeadstormX27]

The remake isnt perfect but the different "configurations" it talks about are pretty interesting and especially the way it defines the lament configuration especially i thought was really meaningful

[@devinandrews2346]

finally, Hellraiser gets the philosophical/anthropological discussion that it deserves. Well done, and much appreciated

[@lindseysgreencanvas]

right! now I need her, or someone to discuss Imajica, Barker's best work, imo.

[@cthulhluftagn3812]

Thr 2022 remake really felt like it GOT the cenobites for me, the way pinhead seemed actually Confused by the lead rejecting the agony they offer, leviathan being a angelic devine light, the chatterer readying himself for dismemberment with seeming bearly suppresed anticipation..

[@brocklewis7624]

I can’t believe you didn’t bring up the French movie Martyrs from 2008. Spoilers for the movie below: Martyrs is a fantastic, harrowing film that starts as a thriller body-horror/home invasion movie that completely left turns into psychological horror about torturing a young woman until she enters a sublime state to reveal the secrets of Nirvana and the universe. A goal that is achieved and, once heard, immediately causes the listener to kill herself. It’s fantastic and ties so well to the points in this video.

[@LO-zs3db]

Pascal Laugier was actually attached to an adaption of Hellbound Heart at one point but it fell through :(

[@specialknees6798]

I’ve seen video essays about this movie but can’t bring myself to watch it.

[@cataleast]

Martyrs was... it was too much for me. I genuinely wish I could unsee it. I appreciate what they were going for, but I'd like that movie to leave my brain.

[@poindextertunes]

yes. great flic. one of the best

[@skeletonsinscarves3965]

​@specialknees6798 there's a level of disconnect you have to go through, honestly I fell for the movie because it felt like being seen

[@stephenvelez9710]

I love how you go from an analytical takedown of the way humans perceive ourselves to “ Whoah, the Cenobites take Manhattan!” Chef’s Kiss!

[@FrizzlenillCAN]

I think to be afraid of falling, is to imagine yourself stepping off the high place you're standing on, and recoiling from that thought. For as pointless and outdated as a lot of Freudian specifics are, he was right to notice the fact that accompanying a fear of falling is a desire to leap from the ledge. The cenobites are the manifest form of the knowledge that you cannot feel flight without leaping to your death, that implicit in absolute transcendence is absolute change. We fear them, at least partially, because they are not truly unrecognizable - while they clearly stand on the other side of a threshold we cannot comprehend, what SCARES us is that we feel something implicit to our human consciousness, expressed by them. That is, what scares us is that they are not alien, that they are voice to the question of why pain (not just physical) is such a fundamental characteristic of life, the question of whether pain has some deeply human meaning, and their answer is a booming "YES". If pain doesn't 'mean' anything, then we don't have to accept it, we can flee it or subdue it or wallpaper over it, but the cenobites are familiar to the part of us that recoils from the thought of suffering being such a central part of life that it should be embraced. Like a fear of heights, that recoiling is only there because some deeper, instinctive part of us, actually considers the possibility of embracing and facing up to that pain in the first place, the impulse to fly even if it literally means falling to our deaths. To be glib, what is scary about the cenobites is that they AREN'T the ones pushing us to jump. We find them scary, personal, rather than alien, because we make the desire to jump all by ourselves.

[@gusty7153]

also the very first opening scene of hellbound heart is a mental monologue of the guy while trying to open the box and basically demonstrating that those who know of the lament's configuration and actively seek it out usually already know what's going to happen if they succeed and anticipate it but also underestimate how far the cenobites are going to go with their "reward".

[@AltairEgo1]

People fear the cenobites because they represent an irreversible, permanent change that will shatter your current reality forever; one that is inescapable and forces you to feel its presence at all times. Of course you want greater thresholds in life, but most people want to return to some sense of sameness, because reality, ugly as it is, grounds us. It's something we're always trying to escape, yet we always want to return to at our leisure.

[@gusty7153]

@@AltairEgo1 also its because they go beyond what is acceptable. the cenobites are a fantasy depiction of a real world lifestyle that is taken to such an extreme degree that isn't possible in this current reality. it's all depends on the individual asking how far is too far, even for those that actually want it. and there are plenty that want it

[@AltairEgo1]

@@gusty7153 I know of one character, I think in the comics, who fell in love with a cenobite. He enjoyed the torture and formed an attachment to a female cenobite.

[@gusty7153]

@@AltairEgo1 i gotta find the comics

[@nickhoward7419]

Being against tattoos is more of an evangelical Protestant / modern conservative Catholic thing. Christianity historically was either ambivalent or fully accepting of tattoos. In the Catholic Church during the Crusades, it was ruled in the Council of Northumberland that religious tattoos were permissible, and even "praiseworthy". At the time, many Catholic knights and pilgrims made use of tattoos, especially at the completion of a pilgrimage to the Catholic shrines in the Holy Land. Some Catholic military orders, such as the Knights of St. John of Malta, sported tattoos to show their allegiance. It was commonly used as a symbol that you would not give up your faith if captured by Islamic armies. Orthodox Coptic Christians who live in Egypt commonly tattoo themselves with the symbols of Coptic crosses on their right wrists for similar historical reasons. From there, the tradition spread throughout Eastern Christian communities such as the Ethiopian, Armenian, Syrianand Maronite Churches. Catholic and Orthodox Croats in Bosnia utilised tattooing of crosses for perceived protection against forced conversion to Islam and enslavement during the Ottoman occupation of Bosnia. This has continued into modern times. Tattoos are also traditionally done on pilgrims who complete a visit to Jerusalem

[@BrutalPuppy]

Orthodox Croats? Rlly? Please ask some Croatian if Orthodox Croats exist 😂

[@nickhoward7419]

@BrutalPuppy I don't know if this comment is an attempt at some old-fashioned eastern european racism but Orthodoxy is the second-largest religious denomination in Croatia. There are ethnic Croats who are Orthodox and ethnic Serbs who are Catholic.

[@voltekthecyborg7898]

I'm a Christian, and I'm not against people getting tattoos, I just don't want to have tattoos. Not because of pain or anything like that, but in terms of money. I already have a weapons addiction, I don't need to add tattoos to the equation

[@Neoprenesiren]

Yeah because people don't use them now for the purposes of meaningful art, they use it to destroy their bodies and future prospects. It's just meaningless post modern drivel now.

[@kruksog]

That doesn't change what Leviticus 19:28 says. It's in their book of rules.

[@subtle_tea]

“How many angels can dance on the heads of Pinheads pins” was absolutely brilliant.

[@thegaspatthegateway]

so glad there's people out there who can laugh at that one

[@cheesecorpse]

This is probably the most profound youtubevideo I have ever seen, Thank you for this analysis Miss.Morbidzoo

[@Chunkypumpkinhead]

I'm three minutes in and I have never seen a youtuber understand Hellraiser before so thank you.

[@Chunkypumpkinhead]

Yoooo I am 11 minutes in and I am subscribing to your channel.

[@Chunkypumpkinhead]

Okay listen Hellraiser 1 has been my number one favourite movie since I was 14 and that was 26 years ago. Hellraiser had a defining and revealing effect on my sexuality and personal philosophy. I met Clive Barker and talked to him and got to express my heartfelt gratitude for creating Hellraiser and he accepted it graciously and in return genuinely and from his heart thanked me for expressing it. It has been a long-ass time since I have considered that there might be anything new that I missed about Hellraiser, or even that most people would understand the things that I understood about it. Not to be like "I'm a very special boy" or anything but basically Hellraiser (and the novella) is a thing that has been simultaneously preciously personal to me and remarkably misunderstood by others throughout my entire life. Long story short, wowee wow very good video, thank you for making it.

[@poindextertunes]

@@Chunkypumpkinheaddude same 😂

[@rednemesis88]

There's this novel written by Chuck Palahniuk called "Diary". In it, the concept of pain and suffering as a means to achieve spiritual and artistic enlightenment is very well expressed. The main character was a woman who was being surreptitiously manipulated into creating amazing works of painted art by the wealthy quasi-royalty of a small island by causing her pain, suffering and tragic loss.

[@thegaspatthegateway]

Whoa, that's the only book of his I own, and in all probability, the last (physical?) one I've read since 2017. My spark had gone from an eleven to a zero over the course of a few years and I was looking for... something. I stopped halfway through, when her muse returned and she was bursting with energy again. I wanted to save that part for once I too was at that place again. But maybe now, the moment is right to finish reading it. Thanks.

[@DiscipleOfHeavyMeta1]

Let's not mention J.G. Ballard's _Crash_ .

[@DerekCFPegritz]

The way in which the Order of the Gash is presented in the first chapter of _The Hellbound Heart_ is just...sublime.

[@MoonLitChild]

In late 2017, I developed fibromyalgia, which I genuinely believe is the closest to a limit experience the human body *can* actually get without outside incitement-- where every physical sense, quite literally is pain-- you taste it, electrically, it dances behind your eyes to be projected as a lens over everything you see, and you are *changed* because yes, if it continues long enough your link between "pleasure" and "pain" blurs to raw Sensation. Having been writing my entire life I came out of it feeling a bit more equipped to *attempt* to describe it than most but like, your body can just *do that* to you, for no reason at all. I'm not the person I was, and I don't mean now because I'm immune-compromised and in "pain" all the time now. There is pain and there is Sensation. "Angels to some, demons to others" Sensation is transformation. I had such a greater appreciation for Hellraiser as a story post-diagnosis: having been to that edge and knowing by how they look at you that the people you love no longer recognize you, that you have been transformed. Some people with my condition scramble to salvage something of themselves: the fabled **before**. "Before I was sick" "before I got Covid" -- you see this in conversations around Long Covid especially. People who were perfectly healthy begging for a "cure" instead of bending to the change, the transformation and yes, the limitation of your own ability to understand what has happened to you. It's a fascinating thing to watch play out with people, and as a society that is now so demographically different in terms of health. I wonder if anyone else, like me, found comfort in certain aspects of Hellraiser as a story, post-auto immune diagnosis.

[@thegaspatthegateway]

Had a similar experience with Ringu, with Sadako as the archetype of The Prisoner. Chronic fatigue had us for years, but it was obscure to any doctor we spoke to. Come 2020, suddenly the world becomes a macrocosm to our particular brand of invisible suffering, all trapped and isolated. Then we discovered the bottom of the well is an entrance to the Labyrinth, and all its strange wisdom. Oh yeah, then it got infinitely weird when one of the cenobites in the 2022 film was called The Gasp. A name we'd chosen for ourself a year prior. Now that I recall that, I'm really interested in watching this video.

[@thegaspatthegateway]

video was aight, but any discussion about pain or powerlessness is wanting without disabled literacy

[@James-re1yf]

Try a long term high dose heroin or oxycodone withdrawal you may find worse

[@Opinion8dsngr]

I wrote an essay during a painful health crisis about how extreme pain seems to slow or eliminate the perception of time for myself and others. I have wondered if that is why heaven or hell are reported to be infinite and eternal.

[@thegaspatthegateway]

@@Opinion8dsngr does it bring you fully into the moment-where you can't hold the past or the future, just the undeniable present?

[@madjordison13]

This is the most accurate analysis that I have ever seen, not only on Hellraiser but Clive Barker as an imagineer too. Brilliant.

[@zacsadler5887]

You're a fantastic essayist and sociologist. I've loved everything that I've seen so far and I look forward to seeing more of your work in the future

[@ravendelacour1917]

For a PG-13 take of the fusion of divinity and pain, you might look into the evolving interpretation of the goddess Loviatar in Dungeons and Dragons. Back in the original run of D&D in the eighties, Gary Gygax infused the RL mythical Finnish dark goddess Loviatar who is associated with winter and suffering with the essence of a dominatrix to create a fan classic that has endured through multiple editions and pantheons to this day. Originally starting as an obscure entry in the old school Dieties and Demigods manual, Loviatar has risen to become part of the canon pantheon of Forgotten Realms, the default long running game world of D&D. Despite being classified as Lawful Evil, the philosophy of her and her followers is that pain is a necessary part of being for the evolution of self and society. Acts of heroic altruism deny this opportunity to others and are from the goddess's point of view evil. Thus Loviatar and her followers oppose the traditionally good heroic player characters because from the goddesses's point to view the heros are the evil ones taking on the suffering of others to strengthen themselves and thus weaken the rest of the world's population who remain dependant on the heros to survive. Nothing so meta in a role playing game like recontexualizing gaining experience points as a bad thing.

[@melissaharris3389]

PC hero's are just kill stealing XP from the peasantry.😂

[@isabellalive2.081]

It is absolutely an Asian Thing !!!! Watch "Seven years in Tibet" & understand why Brad Pitt did not get the Girl , because western & eastern philosophy are diffrent Which is why Communism took hold because in essence it agrees with the egoless life. Rather than being a stand out show off CAPITOLIST AMERICAN Stereotype..

[@MALICEM12]

I swear everyone makes everything about dominatrixses these days. Why?

[@ravendelacour1917]

@@MALICEM12 Gygax created this version of Loviatar in the early 1980s. Kink has been around a while. It's just out in the open now.

[@MALICEM12]

@@ravendelacour1917 by these days I didn't literally mean this year. The 80s isn't so far in the grand scheme of things

[@cinnis5670]

I feel like Hellraiser 2022 was what I was finally waiting for. It's different from the first 2 but I appreciate it as it's own work. The addiction metaphor really spoke to me, and there was this constant sense of "faux-resistance" from the drug-dealer analogue characters. Both the Cenobites and the other villains have that kinda "noooo, doooon't, stoooooop" vibe to them and it's so good on rewatch.

[@borealsullivan5486]

I feel like the idea of the Lament Configuration granting evil-jeenie-style wishes if you feed enough people to it kinda undermines the ethos of cenobites as established by Barker. In the original novel, at least, the box attracted people with a deep-seated, selfish desire, regardless if they were actively seeking cenobites out. Cenobites were not an evil dragon, waiting for fresh virgins - they were fae, claiming anyone who dares glimpse their form into their endless revelry. Not to mention that Riley was one of the most hateable horror protagonists I've seen in a while. The moment her brother got claimed by the Box she grew from unlikable to nigh unforgivable. I almost couldn't properly enjoy the film because I hated that little cunt so much. That fact that in the end she gets off scott free while people who were trying to save her sorry ass have either suffered a fate worse than death or came close to it really put a damper on an otherwise well-made film. "Why, of course a little survivor's guilt is on par with unimaginable torture" my ass...

[@erwin669]

@@borealsullivan5486 the question that was asked in the 2022, at least in my opinion, was how far are you willing to go for enlightenment. The enlightenment the Cenobites bring is through pain and tribulation. This is why they were disappointed in Riley at the end. She rejects there offer and will never know what could have been and now she is left with the not knowing. Voight on the otherhand doesn't undetstand the "gift" the Cenobites offer until he chooses "power" and quite literally ascendes to become a Cenobite himself and understands.

[@borealsullivan5486]

@@erwin669 That sounds good on paper, but the fact that cenobites are perfectly willing to "enlighten" unwilling and often innocent participants makes the final conclusion sound hollow. It's arguably what makes cenobites in the original movie appear more evil compared to the novel. That is, their relation to Kirstie. In the novel she was Frank and Julia's frumpy friend that harboured a secret crush on Frank and resented Julia. That's why she was drawn to the box - she just didn't have the state of mind to accept the cenobites' gift, just like Frank. While in the movie it appears that cenobites take anyone who solves the puzzle box, which also makes for a continuity error between the first movie and the second, where Pinhead suddenly states that It's intent that matters, not the hands that opened the box.

[@erwin669]

​@@borealsullivan5486 I'd argue that Riley (in the remake) is prefectly willing, she's just not aware how willing she is. She is doing drugs and letting her life fall apart because she doesn't find meaning in her life. Had it not been people she cared about being sacrificed to the Cenobites she would have taken them up on their offer to go deeper. The Cenobites are neither good or evil, they just are. Kristy, as far as the movie goes, was more than willing. She eventually becomes a Cenobite herself in Barker's continueity

[@borealsullivan5486]

@@erwin669 I guess it was the visceral feeling of how horribly unfair it all was to people around her that ticked me off. Drag Me to Hell gave me the same feeling. But because in DMTH there was only ever one victim of the curse it left me with a sinking depression, while in Hellraiser remake most of the "deaths" that occur are arguably Riley's fault it instead made me angry at her in particular. And she's lucky that in the remake being taken by cenobites doesn't seem to be an eternal damnation like in the original series, otherwise it would've impacted my impression of the film much more negatively 😅

[@SmoughTown]

Just found this channel! Absolutely amazing content, covering all my favorite films haha Thank you!

[@themorbidzoo]

Thanks ☺️ Edit: omg your name just clicked into place in my head, I love your ER lore vids!! Cheers 🥂

[@nostromonaut]

Not two of the best (and my favorite) media analysis channels casually tipping their hats to each other

[@MoltenMouseMetal]

"Stoicism" peddled on youtube is the ultimate un-cut copium.

[@kgreen242424]

I think that the way you are viewing Lovecraft is slightly wrong. He was a very small person despite his height and he thought he was better than the average person. If you look at his work, there are 3 things that always show up. First, he will describe one of the characters as being from a family of New England blue bloods. His wife's family had money and a lineage but he came from nothing in those respects. Second, he will give a graphic description of a structure. Things like the type of roof and windows. He was a failed architect. Third, he mentions some ancient legendary tomb. Things like "The Necronomicon" and "The Book of Eibon". He didn't get much recognition while alive. Put these things together and we have an author writing character that what he wants to be. The number of times a monster actually appears in the stories is like 5 and even then it's glimpses and impressions mostly. This is what Lovecraft was writing about whether he knew it or not. Fear, helplessness, shame, doubt, anticipation, worthlessness and inadequacy just to name a few. The genre of "Lovecraftian Horror" has his name but he only put in a small part of what is known as the "Cthulhu Mythos" and many of the monsters in it never appear anywhere near his stories. Just some thoughts

[@jacobbohl192]

The Outsider is probably Lovecraft's wholistically best work because it is the most sincere about all of these anxieties, and places them appropriately, for once. (Which is to say, in the interaction between the individual and society, and not the fact that the Dutch or black people exist.)

[@kylegonewild]

I mean...yeah, the monsters don't physically show up in the most of the work because the fear of the unknowable is the point; almost an antithesis to spirituality whose primary purpose is the cessation of that fear whether it's obvious unknowables like death or the more insidious ones like the nature of men. Been known for a pretty long time we fear what we conjure in our imaginations more than what someone can show to us. Horror and terror are distinct sensations in response to different stimuli. I don't really disagree with anything else said here as I haven't thoroughly exhausted the work to know whether your thesis about the 3 things that always shows up holds true. Interesting perspective nonetheless.

[@kgreen242424]

@@kylegonewild I had replied to you but it didn't post it for some reason. I don't remember what I said but I will try again. The beings in his books are in fact "physically" present most of the time. In the 30's it seems like the understanding of the 4th dimension was that it was a spacial dimension. This is present in his stories as he would often use the plot device of the monster is a color that humans can't see or they occupy a spacial dimension that we can't experience. The point is fear of the unknown. Of that you are correct. I am presenting the reasoning as to why he wrote about it. He was haunted by dreams as a child and he carried his fear from sleep to his waking life. It's my speculation that he didn't receive much sympathy for this. I will elaborate on that shortly. The things that caused him fear were not real but he would have the feeling that something was there trying to get him. How would these feelings manifest in the writing of an author? You would show no monster as you never saw one yourself. You would write about impressions and a sense of knowing that it was near. As for the justification for the speculation, I believe the concept of going mad from seeing an old one is the manifestation in the writing of how he felt as a child when trying to relate what he experienced at night. While it is said you go mad, not a single person actually does. Characters that experience an old one do try to relate what they saw but nobody believes them. The story they tell is so fantastic that no person in their right mind would believe it. This is what gets the label of mad applied. It is not the seeing doing anything other than inducing extreme terror. The characters are locked up in institutions for telling their story or at best ostracized by the town. It is not hard to line up. He would wake in fear and try to tell someone about it. They were not understanding of how afraid he was and he received nothing in terms of support. He was very isolated as a child and weird to boot so considering the types of things he was afraid of, getting called mad seems like a reasonable possibility. The themes that people choose to put in their writings are often a direct reflection of how they feel or have felt whether knowingly or unknowingly. It is not always the case but it is a good rule of thumb when trying analyze a body of work. I think he is a lot more obvious with respect to that than most. Give @HorrorBabble a look if you're interested in getting more aquainted with his books or the greater mythos. There are hundreds of hours of well produced content from various authors. Ian Gordon has a great voice and sense of the material. He also writes some great stuff. Check it out and let me know if you arrive at similar conclusions about where Lovecrafts life experiences informed his writing.

[@SamuelBlack84]

He was notoriously antisemitic

[@kgreen242424]

@@SamuelBlack84 Among other character flaws, definitely. The stories from that time often had what is seen today as racist. Rightfully so imo. After having listened to the bulk of the mythos, I have noticed some differences. Lovecraft used terms like "my yellow guide" or "low-bred mongaloid features" with obvious derision. Conversely, Robert E Howard often used "blacks" or "negroid" but in the next sentence he would describe "how beautiful her black skin was". Others like CAS(Clark Ashton Smith) would use similar language but seemed more apathetic to the races of his characters. Not many people of color were a MC. Judaism is a religion and not a race so it's always been weird to me that it is put in the same category as ethnicity but it was and still is. Lovecraft was a detestable human being and the stories display parts of those short comings. I would have avoided him like the plague if I was a contemporary.

[@kileyriley1937]

I would be interested in seeing your take on The Godhand from Berserk. The creator of the manga, Kentaro Miura, has said they were inspired by Hellraiser but he definitely has a different philosophy regarding their purpose. It's a long but wonderful series.

[@0333aaa]

The xenobytes are apostles that welcome you upon awakening the behelit/cube. Unless you can overcome the hellish forces trying to recruit you, your monstrous evolution is assured like a divine fate.

[@divinefallfromgrace]

Miura-San will be greatly missed. 🥲

[@sonofthunder-fb3cm]

As someone who's been involved in bdsm for a number of years, ive grown to understand that pain is very mysterious. After we get past the sexual nature involved, we start to see a deeper level immerge. Ive known people who get no sexual satisfaction from it, but instead they used pain almost as a sort of therapy. Its difficult for them to explain, but it evidently helps ithem in a very personal way. These are those you see who take their bdsm very seriously, its not a Saturday night bag of tricks for them, like it is to the more casual practitioners. Its their medicine, their therapy. These are those who have regular schedules they stick to & its truly fascinating to know such a person. The human mind is so complex.

[@Lamoraa69]

Great analysis. You have a wondrous mind. Thank you for sharing your perspective on Hellraiser, it allowed me to further my own thoughts what I found to be a story which had several extra layers beneath what one sees at the surface of all the morbidity and gore.

[@themorbidzoo]

@@Lamoraa69 thanks so much, glad it hit for you ☺️

[@drewmoorestuff]

That was incredible. No one's ever talked extensively to me about Hellraiser. The story fascinates me, and I've never really thought about why.

[@wewaitandwatch]

Oh lord, those later movies. I was never scared of the Cenobytes in the first movie, the real monsters were the humans involved. I watched ot when I was a kid 25 years ago and I'm still freaked out by Julia and Frank. What an interesting video, thank you! ❤

[@justinnutter9008]

The attempt to repackage stoicism as a remedy to the tragedies of modern life kind of reminds me of the from Mike Flanagan's Fall of the House of Usher: "we said it was about soothing the world's pain. That's the biggest lie we ever told. You can't eliminate pain. There's no such thing as a painkiller. Imagine if we put that on the bottle I bet I still could have sold it"

[@necromancer6405]

You can learn to deal with and understand it.

[@SamuelBlack84]

"You're on earth. There's no cure for that" Samuel Beckett

[@Mr.En1gm4]

This is by far the best reflection on Hellraiser I've heard, great work.

[@belluzinha7004]

You're so smart. Every video of yours is a delight.

[@themorbidzoo]

@@belluzinha7004 thanks so much ☺️

[@drwconnor93]

I found your video to be insightful, the commentary witty and biting, and your balance of seriousness and comedy tasteful. Subscribed.

[@melaniey.5596]

Holly shit are you going to mention Georges Bataille?! Hurray I’ll have my bingo card ready! Hell yeah I look forward so much to this video. :D

[@themorbidzoo]

Spoiler alert yes

[@melaniey.5596]

@@themorbidzoo yes!!!! I have been searching for anything I can find from this guy, and I look forward so much to your interpretation of him.

[@MinaDeborah]

George bataille mentionned !!! Hahaha

[@KnjazNazrath]

Bataille is cool, jus' remember never to go full Foucault 'cause you know what they say: never as a woman her age, never ask a man his salary, an' never ask your fave French philosopher why they signed that petition in the 70's...

[@onojioboardwalk9748]

@@themorbidzoo .. Lovecraft was a decent, Good person - While the kind of community Barker came from could never wrap their head's around the fact that they brought uneeded problems onto everyone by engaging in the unsafe pastimes they did. And literally ignored warnings from God. +

[@tannerboth5796]

I love this interpretation. Always hated the direct religious connections implied in various Hellraiser material. I always essentially saw cenobites the way you describe, even if i never actually put words to it myself.

[@terminaldeity]

I recently had a cluster headache, and I came out of it thinking a lot about Hellraiser. It was the most excruciating experience I've ever had. I have a new perspective on pain. I've seen the face of the Pain God, and I hope I never see it again.

[@SamuelBlack84]

Emotional and psychological pain is the worst

[@raysmith984]

It's definitely their monastic monk/priest aesthetics and those background ringing bells that add a lot to their creepiness.

[@blueflamwolf4595]

I love this video how she doesn’t agree with Christianity or other religious aspects but acknowledges them knowing that there are many answers to the same question we need more people like this

[@Chronoplague]

When I clicked on this video, I was praying I wasn't going to watch another recap channel. Really relieved to hear your excellently researched analysis! I'm excited to check out your other videos!

[@QueenToKingOfSpades]

Can I just say that I’m so happy you keep making videos. I always enjoy your viewpoints and analyses, and I rewatch your stuff frequently. You do a really great job.

[@Cernunnnos]

Yea, the pseudo-stoicism trend really rubs me the wrong way too. It rhymes of the early internet edge-lords, convincing themselves they're above everyone else because they're not _emotional_ about the social norms they decide to flout. These dweebs are often the first people to scream and shout when slightly inconvenienced too, because they don't consider anger one of these emotions. Actual stoicism is the other side of the coin to Buddhism, where one says suffering is your lack of discipline, that you should only concern yourself with that which you can control. The other says suffering is nature, and you should seek to detach from it. They're both incredibly solipsistic philosophies that promote detaching yourself from the human condition because they find it icky, basically. You could probably use either to modulate how you deal with suffering, but the idea that we should seek to control or detatch from our humanity to become _better_ is just undiagnosed mental illness and no one will ever convince me otherwise. You don't have to be ruled by your emotions to experience them, to accept them as a part of you. Being human, being flawed, vulnerable, happy, sad, angry, melancholy, afraid, wonderlusted. They're all part of the rich tapestry of our existence, denying any part of them because they're undignified or inconvenient is cowardice, pure and simple. Children turning their noses up at their medicine. Great video, Hellraiser has been one of my favourite series since I got the first 3 films on a DVD boxset when I was a teen. The imagery always struck a chord.

[@themorbidzoo]

💯

[@DBSG1976]

You explained Julia's actions better than anyone I've ever seen.

[@danielmerchant5533]

If cenobites ever make it into the public domain, they'll make out like vampires. Successful, I mean. Classic horror monsters for the ages. Vicious panther! "Can you not?" "No tears. It is a waste of good suffering."

[@erwin669]

2022 was the year I started my medical transition and finally started HRT. I guess I was one of the lucky trans women who didn't get her libido killed and senses seemed to be enhanced. Colors are more vivid, more sensative to touch, actually seeing the beauty of things in the world, actually feeling emotions of the first time. I became a more sensing person and it is very hard to describe things. I kinda felt like I understood where the Cenobites were coming from because they get to experiance all of the thngs. And coming from a world where I didn't get to experiance most of the things that humans seem to do and having my own awakening I don't blame them for wanting to experiance all of the things

[@PlayNiceFolks]

(positive reaction) That's fascinating. I re read your comment multiple times.

[@PlayNiceFolks]

That's a good analogy...but golly I hope that's all it is.

[@erwin669]

@@PlayNiceFolks consent is a cornerstone to BDSM. And unlike the Cenobites I go with expressed consent rather implied consent.

[@thegoblinking279]

I really really like this read. I'm also trans and this take reminds me a lot of what Cronenberg said about transition, that it's "an artist giving their all to their art."

[@jasonmyersOU812]

I have to say this was randomly suggested to me by the Algorithm and I'm very glad it was. Your analysis of this topic was very deep and comprehensive. I really enjoyed it and the work you put into it. I don't think I've encountered something this interesting since taking philosophy in college. Thank you for doing this for us. It is greatly appreciated. Also, I love the first two movies and this really did a great job of pointing out the flaws in subsequent movies. I wish you all the best. Peace

[@JasonRoberg]

Great analysis! The part about Georges Bataille reminded me of the movie Martyrs. If you want proof that a movie about limit experiences is not enough to keep an audience, looking at the reception of that movie is a good example.

[@ClichéGuevara-2814]

I had the same thought. That is a less than subtle depiction of the Pain-Transcendence, um, notion.

[@maximeteppe7627]

I was going to comment about that; the photo of the high as balls guy being cut into pieces makes an appearance in the movie, and the Idea that extreme pains can bring transcendance feels very on brand for a hellraiser movie, which martyrs, at least officially, isn't. a certain character in the middle of the movie even looks rather cenobite-like.

[@Aster_Risk]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of Martyrs during that section of the video.

[@awkwardukulele6077]

I’m not sure by any means, but I feel like the ending for Martyrs was a big part of why it probably failed. Hellraiser implied a lot of different things about what might happen to a person after they’ve “transcended,” and while it’s not very specific or hard-rule, it definitely shows that there’s at least _an answer, that there’s not really a way to transfer knowledge of that answer without _showing_ someone, and that you’re not going to get shown the answer without _desiring_ it, even if you don’t really know what getting that desire fulfilled looks like (Frank.) it didn’t even have a Christian context in the originals. Refusing to go with the “it’s hell” route is pretty impressive for a horror movie about a painful afterlife. Martyrs didn’t do that at all, it has people who get forced to experience that transcendence, the answer isn’t about the limit experience at all, but about the secrets of the afterlife. Even worse, that secret was easily communicated when the hero explains to the villain what she sees in her final moments, and the villain commits suicide when she finally learns the secret. Whatever answer she heard, all we can read as the audience in that scene is “oh boy, that secret sure is bad, dude, amirite?” Lastly, the whole plot borrows from similar ideas to Hellraiser, but _none_ of the story really meshes well, because it’s used in a stereotypically Christian context and as a result it misses all the points Hellraiser nailed.

[@maximeteppe7627]

@@awkwardukulele6077 I don't really buy martyrs as a movie with a christian framework, aside from the villains being old white french people with money, meaning they're probably christian... the villains are looking for answers about the afterlife, but the movie is pretty vague about what that is, or even if the MC might just be plainly hallucinating. and the answer could be really bad... or really good... the thing that hints at the answer being bad news for the vilains is that she refuses to pass it on further. The fact that some of the experience can be recounted with words doesn't really diminish it since we are not privy to what's being regardless. To me the whole point is that an oral summation of a glimpse is earth shattering enough, even though it's watered down. Anyway, the fact that the people looking for answers do so by torturing proxies makes a move away from typical slasher morality (where the transgressors are usually the ones tormented), but to me it kinda fits some of the more transgressive aspects of the original hellraiser, especially regarding the absence of objective morality, but yes, I'll admit it's less palatable - martyrs certainly isn't a movie I'd want to watch again.

[@domonator5000]

This is definitely one of the upper tier video essays I’ve seen on this platform, good job.

[@Jnow796]

Once you realize you're not supposed to feel pain, there's nothing to be afraid of anymore. Scp 5000. I don't know, but the tittle made me remember that line.

[@radnuggies]

This video left me speechless. I feel like few people truly understand the ideas behind Barkers creations, but you GET it, and you did an incredible job of explaining it. (I also love your dog)

[@themorbidzoo]

Thank you ☺️

[@AlexDeMiro]

A FANTASTIC video. The line about the true meaning of these figures and how they relate to a human will stay with me for a long time.

[@raycerussell5519]

Wow. This video is great gonna be thinking about that "how much of your flesh has to be taken away before you aren't you anymore" part for weeks 😂❤

[@cyberjive303]

This is fantastic. One of the best and only times I’ve ever heard someone truly getting the mythos the “puzzle”

[@dark_natas_666]

This is one of the best videos I have ever watched on this subject. I have read Barker since I was 13 years old, and I love that you shot down the Lovecraft/Barker similarities. One could make the same argument with King and Barker as well. Well done!

[@themorbidzoo]

Thanks for watching ☺️

[@dark_natas_666]

@@themorbidzoo it was my pleasure. I also subbed. 🖤

[@tsarXadam]

You've quickly become one of my favorite media analysts on KZbin, you deserve so many more subscribers. Keep it up!

[@magpieMOB]

Your videos are very affirming, in both a sense of satisfying intellectual rigour/articulation around subjects I already find compelling, and in the sense of "OMG it's not just me"

[@ClimateAndDemocracy]

God damn this slaps so hard! So many useful pieces of analysis for how we understand society and counterculture, and for explaining being queer and external to the dominant culture to others.

[@Atlas-z6e]

I just found your channel through this video by searching KZbin about the philosophy on Hellraiser. I think you did a fanastic job doing that. Thank you

[@JGerrity]

This was an incredibly profound take. Not simply on Clive Barker's work, but sadomasochism, metamorphosis, and the potential philosophical (even theological) ties to them. Subscribed, and look forward to seeing more of your work.

[@RebeliuneKei]

Being such a newbie to the concept of the Cenobite and only hearing about Pinhead from sources like Dead By Daylight, I find this analysis so well written pleasant to listen to.

[@cinemaghost3149]

Completely what I needed, hands down the best analysis I've seen so far thank you very much! Ur writing is fantastic

[@Coletrain452]

Its a crazy reality we live in, such complicated feelings with woefully inadequate ways of communicating them!. Another damn banger of a vid!

[@MattGuzzo]

This video is genuinely awesome. Very cool the depth to put into something fun. Keep making these.

[@justinszabo5205]

binged your whole channel over the past few days. so many bangers, man. some unique and intelligent takes i wish we saw more of on youtube. you rule

[@DrStrangefate]

I find it either incredibly coincidental or absolutely intentional on your part to briefly show the depiction of the martyred Saint Sebastian being pierced by arrows. If you're familiar with the Japanese author Yukio Mishima, he was obsessed with this image. He himself expressed in his semi-autobiographical novel Confessions of a Mask that this image of St. Sebastian was the cause of his sexual awakening as he was aroused by it (in so many words) Mishima had a life long fixation on death, particularly ritual suicide, to the point that its argued his last act on earth was at best an act of sedition against his government, and at worst performance art in an attempt to reach that Limit Experience. I urge you to delve into his story as it is utterly fascinating. Anyhoo...this vid was so well thought out, executed and communicated. Take my sub! 😊