Is Harman In-Ear BAD? ft. Harman's Sean Olive

Harman IE bad, Harman OE good
This video's just a subtle ad read for headphones.com
~~~
PATREON: / crinacle
TWITTER: / crinacle
DISCORD: / discord
SUBREDDIT: / inearfidelity
HOODIE: merch.crinacle.com
~~~
00:00 Chat with ‪@DMS3TV‬ and ‪@ResolveReviews‬ from ‪@TheHEADPHONEShow‬
00:13 How is it like working for Headphones.com?
01:40 How is it like being Crinacle?
02:23 Project Red A.K.A. Truthear Zero:RED
02:56 The Harman Discussion
04:07 Is Harman In-Ear bad?
05:25 Interview with Sean Olive (creator of the Harman Target)
06:01 Clarifying Harman In-Ear
06:58 What if Harman IE research allowed for slope adjustment?
09:40 Customisable targets?
10:59 Chit-chat with da bois again
12:16 Customisable targets (again)
13:12 How many custom points?
14:10 Spicy questions (or lack thereof)
14:34 DACs and amplifiers
15:33 Headphones that Crinacle likes, that the ‪@TheHEADPHONEShow‬ team doesn't
15:56 Soundstage in headphones/IEMs
17:35 Planar versus dynamic
18:38 DCA Expanse hate
19:18 Are dynamics and soundstage part of FR?
21:04 BASS JACK
~~~
A CAM: Sony a7 III + FE 35mm f/1.8
B CAM: Sony a7S III + FE 24-105mm f/4 G OSS
LAV MIC: Sony UWP-D27
OUTDOOR MIC: Sennheiser EW 135P G4

[@crin]

5:25 Harman Daddy interview starts here

[@user-dv6yo5bc4z]

Speaking of correlation between dynamics and FR, my take is that the uppermost or lowermost registers of the FR is the most essential in terms of dynamics, but there are also other factors that either I or the rest of us who yet to figure it out.

[@johnnybravo69420]

@@user-dv6yo5bc4zas Sean Olive said, what we understand as Frequency Response (Which accounts for magnitude response and phase response) makes up about 90%-95% of perceived sound quality. It still is the most important factor to consider in audio gear. That other missing % could be explained with other technical things like polarity and distortion, which are all audible btw, but it isn’t something “we can’t explain”.

[@zian.2493]

Can u review Sony link bud s Vs galaxy buds 2 pro

[@doodlebug4947]

​@@zian.2493 Galaxy sounds better.

[@MarSkai]

This is long past starting to irritate me.

[@deegobooster]

Sean seems to be agreeing with most of your points. Methinks he knows they messed up a bit but can’t say it outright.

[@Radugazon]

With a study on 10 subjects for the in ear target curve ? For sure he knows that sucks.

[@cesrrr01]

even though harman study is flawed, it was a good starting point. Kudos on Crin to iterate and improve on that!

[@Radugazon]

@@cesrrr01 what I appreciate is when Crin says that imaging, soundstage and whatnot are in the IEM domain a figment of imagination. As a speaker guy, I can't agree more. Only binaural records show something realistic with IEM.

[@cesrrr01]

@@Radugazon the headphone guy said you can trick soundstage perception with IEMs by playing with the frequency response,. Like scooping the 3khz pinna gain and adding air and I agree with him. Imaging quality might be related to the channel matching but I don't know enough that part.

[@Radugazon]

@@cesrrr01 Interesting point. That's in fact emulating (or simulating) the HRTF patterns. But doing so, you condemn your IEM or headphone to privilegiate only one specific spatial rendering cue. Say, that for example you privilegiate a frequency pattern that indicates "the sound comes from far and from above". Something else that we have to consider is that these perceptions are dynamic. I mean that for asserting a specific distance to a sound, you have to be aware of the original sound when it's played close. Then, you will know by the evolution of the FR that it's coming from a further location. So, if your IEM plays this sound with already the embedded distance cues (like a -15 dB narrow notch @10k), this one will be considered as the normality and I am not sure that you will feel the spaciousness effect . You can try to play with a parametric EQ, but it's not easy to achieve great results as it's static. Or something totally different : 8D audio encoding. While musically pointless (the music turning around your head...), it's technically working very well. And this is about simulating the HRTF.....Sources really move around, go far or close, front and behind. Only by panning and EQ, I don't think the software alters the phase. A KZbin well done 8D sample : kzbin.info/www/bejne/rIPVp4Wqo9GkrK8

[@ResolveReviews]

Oh, hello there...

[@sidesaladaudio]

General Kenobi

[@GocygoOffical]

@@sidesaladaudioyou are a bold one

[@NobleGrows]

The treble has always been a problem for me but I didn’t even know the raw Harman IEM treble is 5db higher than Over ear like damn thats much

[@dandzolino]

Nice to see you guys together! Thanks for a lovely chat. Loved it. Don't die.

[@Dextro0451]

So good, I love to see the banter in the second half! We need this every meet-up please!

[@sickjohnson]

Don't know how I missed this one Crin, damn glad I go back and check cuz it was awesome!

[@homeboi808]

If all phones (APPLE!!!) offered universal/master PEQ for all audio output, this issue would be less of an importance. As Sean Olive said, having a TWS with an app with EQ is a good thing to adjust for preference.

[@aloysiusyudistianto3611]

Agreed. While installing an app might be a hassle, it has saved my Sony XM4s from being a muddy mess of a headphone.

[@cesrrr01]

@@aloysiusyudistianto3611 XM4 has decent eq presets in the app. you can set up the eq and remove the app.

[@OledBurnInKing]

​​@aloysiusyudistianto3611 For my sony xm4, I have the eq cust set to completely flat like a ruler and clear bass bass at - 10, basically I turned off the bass from the sony app and have ldac set to prioritize sound quality and turn off noise canceling since I don't use noise canceling. I still have not found a pair of iems, open back and close close back headphones with being flat like a ruler with 20 hz to 20 khz flat frequency response with the measurement graphs showing a completely flat frequency response of a ruler at 20 hz to 20 khz. I'm looking for the same thing with studio monitors without dsp, no equalizer, no compression, no filters, dynamic range set to completely flat like a ruler with no peaks and dips at all while still retaining the flat frequency response of 20 hz to 20 khz that way it's completely 100% accurate with 0 alteration to any part of the audio with 0 boost for the treble, 0 boost to the midrange and 0 boost the bass. It won't be enjoyable but it will be for the individuals value accuracy over something enjoyable but have it as an option.

[@supernaut7946]

@@cesrrr01 It's pretty rudimentary, only has like 6 bands. I was never satisfied with it.

[@your_average_cultured_dude]

​@@OledBurnInKing you haven't found a completely flat headphone because there's a thing called ear gain. the pinna/auricle of the ear reflects the upper frequency sound waves to boost them to hear better. that's why speakers sound good when they measure flat like a ruler in the room. when you're wearing headphones or IEMs, your ears cannot boost those frequencies and the headphone has to do it instead. with a headphone, to get flat sound you NEED to have ~10dB boost in the upper mids and towards the treble. if you're EQing a headphone to be flat like a ruler, all you're doing is making it have negative upper mids, not flat. if you want to simulate a flat 20hz-20khz sound system you need to have the ~1k-10k boost. that's the whole purpose of having neutral target curves. to make a headphone sound as close to flat speakers as possible.

[@pithyginger6371]

ngl when I finally heard a proper speaker setup, I realized why speaker people don't care about headphones and iems. It had the dense detailed sound of a really good flagship headphone but out of my head.

[@hermdude]

9:24 Sean Olive rocking that Nomos Tangente Neomatik.

[@juanblanco7898]

He's got good taste.

[@rathtruong9172]

With everything they were talking about in this video, I'd love to see a Crin video where he talks a bit about speakers. I'm a noob when it comes to audio, and speakers are the hardest to understand in terms of what to look for, what the merits are aside from soundstage, and who/what to trust.

[@Sintrania]

I like your talk with da bois we should do this more!

[@Ballacha]

not surveying different age group separately is bad. harman IE is too shouty to young people because old people are in the survey. but harman IE target is still more enjoyable than other IE targets (like the DFneutral-ish tuning etymotic er4 family uses). no tuning is perfect. the best way to cope is buying IEMs that are excellent in technicality then eq it yourself.

[@enjoshi-godrez8775]

Thats basically the philosophy of what went into the LCD-i4.

Not true. The trained listeners weren't all old. Most were in the 20-40 range

[@Ballacha]

@ your reading comprehension is worse than a kindergartener’s

[@bfzsgaming6068]

The revised VK4 has better technicalities than T3+ and S12. Why?

@@bfzsgaming6068 its because of vk4's peak at 5k

[@fahryst]

This is actually a great video Mister, thanks.

[@samuelguillaume7449]

Really interesting video, I love theoretical things like that since it helps to analyze by yourself instead of having just a review for a specific product. Still waiting for the Hifiman Edition XS review that you promised btw.

[@hartyewh1]

It's better than Arya ;)

[@samuelguillaume7449]

@@hartyewh1 Never heard the Arya, I have the edition XS and they sound fantastic imo. Just wanted a crtitics to see if my ears are good or if I have weird tastes XD

[@hartyewh1]

@@samuelguillaume7449 Nah, they are universally excellent value and very little need or options to upgrade to even if budget has no limit.

[@MarSkai]

diyaudioheaven

[@lazar1an]

Great video, love hearing everyones thoughts and spice at the end as well. In regards to Golden blind testing this stuff, he needs to prove this publicly! If he does in fact have 'goldenears' that no other member of the population really has then his reviews really don't apply to the rest of us do they?

[@barbasour]

you're right. but at least he's giving us a "pre-ability" choice to make, who knows, we could eventually develop a good hearing like him. lol

[@architectlogin]

This was soo fun to watch.

[@artatgray]

Interesting. With a very Harman compliant IEM, I always add a high shelf filter at 1600Hz G -2.75 Q 0.8 to tame the upper midrange and presence regions or else the tonality is too bright for my preference. I own some Harman developed speakers, with Room Correction EQ applied of course, and my Corrective EQ for my IEMs brings them closer in tonal balance to those.

[@guenaelsoum8405]

Dynamics come from FR over time, in music production when we speak about Dynamics it’s when it comes to using compression. Attack and release of notes is in milliseconds. If an iem can express itself very quickly, without being overwhelmed by the impacts of notes, and does not induce distortion, it will have a greater dynamic.

[@ValJCI]

My reds just got here today already loving it

[@pisderata]

The thing with soundstage is that I'm pretty sure we hear It way more being younger, when I started had the "oh I had to check if I have the iem plugged or not" with super low end iems but now 5 years later I don't sense that anymore

[@mochfarchan8135]

I somehow have this thought that isolation affects sound staging? Because like with in-ear headphones, they do be having its nozzles jammed inside your ear canal and then additionally closed with silicon buds that came with it, making it sounded narrow?

[@Hahmier]

Can someone help me. Are the iem presets in the qudelix 5k using the auto eq tuned to harman also? Because they sound absolutely neutral to me, and not v shaped at all.

[@KopfdesRiesen]

For some reason they always sound like shit to me. Using squiglink and configuring it manually gave me a much better result

[@qlum]

They are using the harman target. It could very well be a case of differences in perceived hearing between people.

[@Mishael_Agyei-Boamah]

Nah the AutoEQ uses an algorithm written my Jaakko Pasanen and sometimes it over smoothens the treble region which is imo the most important region after the midrange in terms of determining how a Headphone's timbre tonality and character is like... So it's better to AutoEQ under 8kHz and then EQ by ear over 8kHz so that you EQ according to your individual HRTF

[@Hahmier]

Guys you were right. It sucks ass 😭. I used autocal with a 2db bass boost on IEF 2023, and it sounds infinitely better. Thats what you get for only having 1 iem. Nothing to compare. Does any have other suggestions for targets they like to use (for subject listening)?

[@clee2423]

harman daddy seems like a nice daddy

[@aniketarya126]

We definitely need that BASSJACK 😂💪💪

[@0e0]

awesome stuff here

[@AnonyMap1]

Conversations like this is why I like the audio hobby these days. A lot more intellectual rigor and discussion rather than only vibes

[@dogratco]

Boosting bass to balance an elevated high end reminds me of the old days of Japanese CRT TV's, when manufacturers favored a white balance that was much too blue. They pushed red way up to compensate. To this day a blueish, cool white balance plagues some laptop computers, especially HP models I have seen.

[@mokousshitposttheatre5253]

new video let's go

[@evank8459]

IEMs are king at sub-bass, because most people don't have very quiet listening environments

[@Gurwindersingh-gc4jm]

We need a video for best earphones under different price categories, 2023 and 2024 .

[@nowaynowaynottoday]

I picked up the ZERO: RED's and whilst I like them, I do find them quite shouty and a little boring over all (still a great product at 50 bucks). But yeah, definitely agree with Crinicle here. A little more warmth and sub bass, and slightly softer upper mids are definitely my personal preference.

[@d0nant0ni0]

That is exactly what I felt. What sets did you find suitable to your preference? Would blon z300 be it?

[@nowaynowaynottoday]

@@d0nant0ni0 I actually don't use iems very much. I usually either use some heavily EQ's hifimans, or recently switching between HD599 and HD600. I'd say the 599s are a really nice overall signature that I can listen to for long periods every day. Some of my more expensive headphones are overly detailed and I find listening to them for too long fatiguing.

[@BrotherO4]

i think you mean the ZERO. the Reds are tune to his liking which is the tilt.

[@nowaynowaynottoday]

@@BrotherO4 nah I have the zero reds. I was commenting on their performance without the in line attenuator

[@Anti-FreedomD.P.R.ofSouthKorea]

Those seem to sound horrible- built upon a lie that only comes to psuedoscientifical research which the cardinal rules of establishing a numerically and empirically sound "scientifical research" are mostly missing- which normally should consist of proof the broad range of subjects/test subjects that are objectively agreeable by the public of to not cater to one direction of bias- which even the participants in this research only consisted of what.. 10 people? Also consistency with how other audio devices (headphones and speakers) are measured in the same method , and lastly a complete abesence and denial of public reception to the reports. Which only the members of the church of ASRitology seem to praise and robotically adhere without any skepticism- of course- because they have no ears to listen to terrible errors in frequency response but only eyes to read the graph to see if a device only ever follows the harman rule and a mouth to utter the same words of "the harmAn company has prOved it so it's rIght and sciEntificAl". If Harman Group/Samsung sets a far more terrible curve as a response so terrible it kills all birds porching on trees, they still will compare IEMs to that curve then rate those based on that terribility, I swear lol

[@p_serdiuk]

Whenever I try AutoEQ with IEMs using the "standard" AutoEQ repo which is EQ'd to Harman I noticed all these deficiencies too. It forces IEMs to be too shouty and harsh. IEF neutral is just objectively better. Etymotic house sound is also pretty good, when the damn things actually seal :(

[@sen6516]

There's an AutoEQ based on crin's old IEF neutral curve out there, with a IEF neutral with bass option as well, might sound better

[@bagajohny1673]

I am not sure if I ever got the seal right with Etymotic but the er2xr is the best earphone/headphone I have ever tried so I dont have any other better benchmark to compare it to. Etys sound the best and most distinct from all other gear I have ever heard.

[@cian.horgan]

very fun! But on the stage and imaging question, didn't DMS put out a video titled like "These headphones image like speakers"?

[@hartyewh1]

It was about style, not quantity or quality I'm guessing/remembering.

[@barbasour]

at least it was headphones, not IEMs 😄

[@jackjack3874]

I am confused... from 6:25 Mr. Olive clearly states that the same people who adjusted the bass also adjusted the treble... and that it was trained listeners.. Dont get me wrong.. I find the Harman IE 2019 target a bit too shouty and bright.. to be more precise the energy in upper mids to lower treble is a bit too much..

[@qlum]

I personally find Harman IE quite fine for me and not at all to shouty. In fact comparing headphones tuned to harman over ear to iem's tuned to harman in ear I find the headphones shoutier. I personally tend to lower the highs a a bit from the harman target on headphones where I no interest in doing so on iem's I don't know if it's just in my mind or it is just variation between people's ear's or my testing is somehow flawed but that has been my experience at least. End of the day I can choose whatever target I want so really what works for me works for me. I am not in the business of recommending / reviewing things to others anyway.

[@Ioganstone]

Anecdotally after my Sony MDRNCR7 which had more shoutiness I adjusted my Sennheiser HD 500 +6dB 1KHz (peak) +6dB 2 KHz (high shelf) and +13dB at 10khz (high shelf) with -10dB preAmp. Interestingly, I had not modified the bass up until 166Hz, at which point it went -2dB, not up. I'm now looking at AutoEQ and it seems like it aligns more with the Harman in/over-ear than the other options for my HD 500. I have a feeling this is more to do with a larger producing to mixing ratio that some neurodivergent people are more attuned to.

[@carminedesanto6746]

I love my Sen’s 650’s ..but I love my Moondrop Variations MORE … Now is there a headphone that put my favorite IEM’s to shame ..that don’t cost more than my first car 🤔 Great video. Take care ☕️🍕👍

[@moothay]

hey can you help me out im looking for best ime for gaming in the 200-300 range can be more but i also dont want to give up my music and also what should i plug my imes into

[@Dontaskmeth]

Hey crinacle can you suggest us some gym earbuds or headphones?

[@terratenientesalgo2511]

that has to be a very strong wifi signal to make a wireless microphone sound that noisy.

[@onlyusernameleft2]

I'm a total noob at EQing my headphones. Give me the parametric settings. I'll figure it out.

[@Audio_Revelations]

How I do it is I get a balanced tuning IEM and then I have a DAC or TWS adapter that has EQ and I'll EQ it to my preference

[@STAYCBias]

Please retrieve back your world's best planar IEM video and all the 7 hertz timesless review and reaction! 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@pokketato3002]

I think 3 points control would be better, I don't think that actually would be too complicated.

[@backgroundman_]

Not gonna lie, DMS's video on atmos convinced me to buy speakers

[@ianl.9271]

Problem is most casual people would not even know such IEMs even exist. You can't find them in regular electronic stores. People who would look for such IEMs are conditioned to audiophile tunings which are slightly more laid back than studio monitors. For listening, the IEF neutral+bass boost ala Salnotes Zero is very comfortable for long duration listening. For studio work, the Truthear Zero actually translates better to the studio monitors. Same reason why audiophiles don't like accurate studio monitors.

[@user-wj4rr3ob2z]

@crin It would be nice to have a collaboration with some professional sound studio, and in it, on the basis of a full-range monitor, make a measurement based on a 5128 iec stand, and use this curve for the intended use. By the way, the Russians have already done this in the product "Realphones" . My headphones have been calibrated (Hifiman 400SE), and I have no questions at all about the target curve. Bass is enough. I got used to high frequencies in 3-4 days of use.

[@VonZekk]

Do a podcast guys

[@phixi0n]

7:15 dude said valididity.

[@supernaut7946]

Interesting that soundstage and imaging are so low on their radar. I find that even with IEMs there's a pretty big range. Some feel like they just exist in a line from one ear to the other and some are able to fill the entire head stage with amazing depth and layering, which once you close your eyes can even present as having real distance outside the head. Of course most are leaning toward the first category but I find it a pretty important factor when I'm hunting for new gear.

[@MrRosscoz]

Agreed.. soundstage is definitely a thing, once you learn how to hear it :-)

[@a_fading_shadow]

well, it is funny how my target for IE is the moondrop blessing 3

[@EG-MAN]

love to hear the theories that I have I'm my head for months, but coming from the voice of other people, This fucking hobby gave me a degree in abstract novel writing without me asking for it. AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH‼️‼️❗

[@HobbyTalk]

Let me choose where my bass shelf ends, I like a shelf that ends around 300hz

[@lonneydmz]

Can you please give recommendations for headphones /earbuds under 60 dollars or euros ?? I'm from abroad so a 20 dollar earbud is like sixty dinar here

[@patrickdanneker5480]

That was wholesome

[@uzefulvideos3440]

I don't think IEM tuning should be about preference, but about reproduction of the perception of the reference environment.

[@Blackwing2345635]

Well, on tuning and EQ - luckely i found my tuning: HD600. Bass boost depending on the mood and application, iFi zen dac's BB works just fine. "Veil" haters either old men or deafened by usually overbrightened low-to-mid hi-fi stuff, which tries to sound clearer than it is. But when I'm not home - I use Kinera Gumiho with mild PEQ in Qudelix to remove sibilant peaks and make them less V-shaped. Just used Peace with upside-down measurement graph overlay to find parameters, put it in Qudelix - voila, now i can listen to them without headache, and i actually like this setup, despite NOT liking IEMs in general. When i had only HD380 pro - i've been suppressing strange 3.5k peak with APO EQ/Poweramp EQ/whatever else I used. Also complitely agreed on "soundstage" take in the video - it is WAY overrated nowadays, no headphones (especially IEMs) sound even close to speakers. Again - many people call HD600 "claustrophobic", but... They are not, i can use their sound in games just fine, both separation and wideness in music is absolutely fine, and yes i listened to HiFiMan planars, HD800s, it doesn't matter, until it is REALLY bad. What matters MUCH more at the point of 200+ bucks headphones - what you are listen to. If you are listening to a flat track - it will be flat with any headphones. If it is spatious track, with ambient sounds or instruments are far or it is just "big" sound - you will enjoy it both though HD600 and HD800s, honestly. Yeah, HD800s are presenting things "bigger" and "wider" (not "deeper" though), but it is not like revelation or listening to speakers. Not at all.

[@enjoshi-godrez8775]

They are absolutely claustrophobic compared to the hifimans. To say otherwise is to say you've not heard an ananda, let alone an ayra or he1000. They also have compromised imaging, though it matters less in games as its accuracy within the ranges it has imaging is still fine. Its an amazing headphone for $300, though. Much better than the sundara in my opinion.

[@fador1337]

@@enjoshi-godrez8775 Why do you think HD600 is much better than the Sundara?

[@enjoshi-godrez8775]

@@fador1337 its defult tonality is just much more natural to my ears. Though, if you were to eq to IEF, I would choose the sundara every time. The sundara is a more capable headphone, but the 600 doesn't need any eq to sound effectly peerless, which is its selling point.

[@athenovae]

I’d still appreciate a comment of an IEM having a 2/100 staging tho 😭✌🏼

[@VIP-ry6vv]

I think that iem aren't really taken seriously compared to over ear and that's the problem. Excellent interview.

[@alexis1156]

I do not like the harman curve, i find the area between 2 and 5 khz to be extremely annoying if you boost it, especially the frequencies between 2 and 3.5 khz. I personally like to increase bass, mostly sub bass, the mids between 400 to 2k, and the highs, while decreasing between 2 and 5khz, and keeping the mid/high bass mostly untouched, i mean between 100/300 hz.

[@alexis1156]

@@AdamKnorr I don't do v shape though, that's terrible. I like mids, especially bewtween 400 to 2k. The only thing i really dislike is having too much boost at around 2.5khz. And too much in the 100 to 300 hz region, boost too much there and it's muddy. Mids are the most important though, which is why i do not do v shape.

[@alexis1156]

@@AdamKnorr What do you mean?

[@cadmiumpureland]

Soundstage of headphones is 15 and iems is 2. That’s the fact when I switched from iem to headphone; Everything sounds bigger and more apparent, I don’t have to focus hard. I always ask myself why am I listening to iem when I have headphones lying around. Actually I can do without iems! 😮

[@benstain2674]

Iems ae for going outside (and for having no weight). Do you not do that? Lmao

[@shiro214okane]

cause whatever you do atm its uncomfortable + hygiene for very long session hours, like playing. specially if you live in a place that's hot aired humid.

[@lunam7249]

please explain scientifically...???

[@roadtonever]

The lushness and better texture is more interesting to me, I agree with the hosts, soundstage doesn't really matter.

[@srsbsns7673]

I agree to an extent... But my main 2 listens are HD600s and Variations. No lie, the staging feels more spacious and more precise on the Variations. The timbre is undeniably better on the HD600s with or without EQ. But yeah, HD600s feel more inside my head with indistinct imaging by a considerable margin. It's weird because no other IEM I've tried has managed to substantially outperform the HD600s in any significant fashion.

[@NoName-nd9rr]

Nice

[@ephemerisone74]

viewers: "we want don't die, fuck off" crinacle: "we have don't die, fuck off. at home" *don't die, fuck off at home*

[@Medsas]

trashing the man’s work in the title of a video including him, crinacle has balls 😂😂😂

[@xdoctorblindx]

Bass Jack is just an impedance adapter, no?

[@stormyb3739]

Sean Olive is wearing a Nomos 😍

[@QOTSAPT]

People have the tendency to boost treble as much as tolerable and also bass, rather than try to do the opposite and try to get away with boosting as little as possible, that is why there is an inate tendency to v-shape.Timbre is all FR. Soundstage is not part of FR, there software tricks to boost stereoscopy but they sound wrong. Dynamics can be part of soundstage and can be tricked with FR, scooping mids can give the illusion of dynamics. Soundstage on OE is really only noticeable on large drivers 5cm and above, 7cm drivers are quite a step up from 5cm. Both dynamics and soundstage are much more noticeable on speakers on a room.

[@sennysoon]

My theory on soundstage is that it's a function of the impulse response/waterfall graph and how long it takes for low end to rise & decay. Would love to hear thoughts and opinions (from anyone) on this. :)

[@artatgray]

Some are suggesting that group delay plays a part in it, and we're sure that frequency response does. Ex. Start manipulating frequencies in the presence region and it'll have a very noticeable impact on the spatial qualities.

[@cryteslx8554]

make tws collab wires are obsolete

[@rhalfik]

my fav thing about Harmen OE is that abbreviates to HOE.

[@tomas_m]

11:28 Aipods Max is what?

[@edaucode]

I use Harman target to judge an IEM soundsig and it's perceptible bloatiness while using DF target to judge drivability, fun/neutral, cold/colorful, soundstaging, sound coherence and bass linearity of an IEM.

[@enjoshi-godrez8775]

DF doesn't sound neutral. Use the IEF 2023 curve if you want the most neutral response.

[@edaucode]

@@enjoshi-godrez8775 So does IEF and Harman

[@enjoshi-godrez8775]

@@edaucode the 2023 IEF for iems is the closest we have got by a considerable margin. I suggest you try it.

[@enjoshi-godrez8775]

@@edaucode its significantly more neutral and balaced sounding than DF.

[@edaucode]

@@enjoshi-godrez8775 IEF target is just some corporate standard. Harman has the trend while DF limiting it

[@adithyaps3606]

HyperX Cloud III when???

[@MrRosscoz]

No such thing as sound stage? You guys need to learn to listen. I too was sceptical until I watched three Star Wars movies in a row with headphones on. About halfway through the last movie, I totally forgot I had them on, my brain started feeling like it was in the movie, the music started sounding 3D. Was it my brain adjusting to the sight/ sound running parallel and working it out? Maybe but it kept going through the credits songs.. since then I can get my self into that zone easier, and even with music, after a few songs the sound stage opens up in my brain. And yes, it is different for different headphones and amplifiers, not so much with DAC’s.. I’ve had times when I swear someone is knocking on the door 10m away, but it was something in the recording mix!

[@MayankJairaj]

d()mb man standing squad!

[@lisan_al-ghaib]

Why not get mastering engineers to participate?

[@AkshatKabra98]

We like IEF Neutral Daddy more 😂

[@elwap0]

YES 3 point!! And yes I'm an idiot...

[@redbuIIracing33]

Man!

[@tadokorovsky9746]

WTF the harman ie curve was just based on 10 people?

[@artatgray]

It was 10 trained listeners. So the situation isn't quite as skewed as it might seem at first glance. A larger sample size might have achieved better results, though.

[@ucilzgamingacc8103]

what? mayflower is still a solid choice in 2023?

[@maumraziel]

You have some massive balls to tell mr Olive that their IEM target is shit... thnks for doing it

[@lisan_al-ghaib]

I feel like nobody actually likes the Harman target and for the longest time just treated it as if it was the golden ratio or something. Always has been shouty for me and you'll just narrow yourself to select songs instead that don't give you a headache.

[@mikeg2491]

I don’t mind it but I get tired of it being treated like the end-all sound sig. The survey was done with mostly in-house employees working for the same audio company which is bad science and even then only something like 65% preferred it which is a majority but not a huge one.

[@lisan_al-ghaib]

@@mikeg2491 I had a ton of arguments online on how it didn't sound "neutral" to me. That and diffused field. They should have hired mixing and mastering engineers in the professional audio world to do the tuning and just get the average - that's how you get the "how it sounds in the recording" lol.

[@josehernandez-pu1qv]

⁠@@lisan_al-ghaib One goal for the harman target was to create a target that emulates the tonality of NEUTRAL speakers in a semi reflective room. It is therefore the only objective neutral target for headphones and IEMs that exists. According to the harman research, you can tweak it a little bit to your liking but deviating from the target too much is just bad.

[@lisan_al-ghaib]

​@@josehernandez-pu1qv What you just said right now is regurgitated BS around the "audiophile" community. if you actually listen to the interview or read how they went about achieving this you'll realize how it isn't actually what they claim it is. For one, go buy actual pro grade speakers, ones even small studios or mixing/mastering engineers use and you will know without a doubt how much of a lie the harman target is. In-room and anechoeic measurements are an actual thing for speakers and the goal for pro audio manufacturers is how to make those targets as close to flat as possible. So with a sub bass boost of 6db+ and a 2KHz shelf of 6db+ how is harman supposed to sound like "NEUTRAL speakers in a semi reflective room"??? You don't even have to believe me. Just ask pro mixing and mastering engineers on that and why a lot have not transitioned to using headphones with harman-tuned targets.

[@paulwg2112]

Interesting. Shows that Harmon Daddy didn’t do his homework or enough testing before publishing. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@BrandinHutto]

Sounds like no one really knows what they're doing. This is also evident when listening to my Buds2 Pros without a ridiculous amount of EQ.

[@iamjohndoe]

Can't agree more with "the local scene for general entertainment is garbage".

[@barbasour]

never liked Harman, OE or IE, especially the latter. something like Softears Turii would be great.

[@matlupi6354]

Yeayhhh

[@ReinoldFZ]

Cool. To think a couple of years ago this amicable talk had sounded to me like all these people from different backgrounds were plotting to conquer the world in Chinese.

[@Ober1kenobi]

Can’t believe I wasn’t told to fuck off at the end, disappointed

[@thejackofclubs]

i feel like we keep moving on to the next buzz word, i used to head "soundstage" and "imagining" used so often, and now i cant go without hearing "shouty" in a review

[@renatobdc]

Why don't you do your own research? You could just ask people to use some budget neutral iem (7hz zero?) to listen to some songs in a site and rank their preference doing some small bass and treble adjustments.

[@danaillaysen7632]

It incredibly expensive (yes it is, dont question me).

[@ReinoldFZ]

Although surely would be expensive the use of an app could help to reach many more persons. After all it is to get an average, precision isn't needed.

[@abhijithmukundan8002]

His project red iem could be said as his own research 😅

[@renatobdc]

​​@@danaillaysen7632 can't believe that.

[@roadtonever]

Why don't you? Why does it have to be Crinacle?

[@amanieux]

the problem with harman is that it is a single "universal" model, there should not be one target curve for audio but many. some characteristics like body height or IQ lies on a gaussian distribution which is great for a single target as 80% is around the target but for our senses it is not the same : there is a obvious analogy for taste in food (sense of taste) to taste in sound (sense of hearing) with many (5 or 6 )sound targets we will be much closer to our unique individual taste and enjoy music much more on average than with a single target like harman ( look at the results for coffee : kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3rMcnSeisqFbLs )

[@chefsteve8381]

Me thinks Dr Olive needs a orange T-shirt....

[@ResolveReviews]

I agree.

[@sidesaladaudio]

​@@ResolveReviews slowly assimilating everyone in the audio field

[@ResolveReviews]

@@sidesaladaudio Yes.

[@Kenny-Somafunk]

All your children belong to us now

[@geereesh77]

Dr. Sean 'DMS' Olive...nice.

[@Jive-1]

Who is that japanese guy in the middle ?

[@Pi22aPino]

That’s highly disrespectful. It’s Shigeru Miyamoto, the creator of Super Mario.

[@FonsieClaw]

Harman IE is goodn't

[@CptMark]

Yes.

[@ZleePyIsSleeping]

try nothing ear 2