Is He Right!? | Nostalgia Holds Back Monster Taming Games? | Response

[@WyattoonsComics]

While they do seem to make some good points, they’re surface level points. I’m sure we can all point to at least one game that actually is a cheap “clone”, but it’s like they took a quick look at some trailer footage and based the whole argument on that.

[@abbieburton2794]

To give a more in depth analysis than "Skill Issue", I genuinely believe his take on nostalgia is completely unfounded. As you touched on, back in the 90s all FPS games were doom clones, but as other games gained popularity and doom's star fell, the genre gained a different name and a wider range of influences. Doom was still a titanic and influential part of the genre, but it didn't dominate discussion. For Pokemon, something like that has not happened because pokemon's star hasn't fallen, and a large enough competitor has not emerged. Pokemon dominates cultural perception of games with creature collection to this day and lots of games are forced to live in it's shadow. Issue here with calling mon games all just nostalgic rehashes of pokemon, is it ignores the fluidity of art and media. In the evolution of a concept, games can just add something small, then the next one builds off of it, and so on and so on. Expecting every new game to be something entirely unique and new places an enormous impetus on the supposed "auteur", the idea of a genius creator who produces art from the aether ; an entirely false concept. Even games which take huge steps forward in their genre take their ideas from somewhere ; Breath of the wild as an example cited terraria and minecraft as inspirations, and none of it's mechanics are entirely new ; they just hadn't been done together in that way before. "There's nothing new under the sun" as some would say. Which is why it's so frustrating popular culture is so obsessed with "ripoffs", "clones" and the like. A game, a movie, a book can have a similar concept to a popular game and that not be a bad thing because what it's adding can be valuable and add to the game overall. Will pokemon's star ever fall? Will we ever see a true competitor? Part of the response and therefore backlash to temtem was people hyping up a "pokemon killer", maybe for the wrong reasons, but in some ways in desperate hope that finally the conversation could actually move on from pkmn. But... it didn't happen, and now we have all the snarky pokemon fans on social media going "POKEMON KILLER HAHAHAHAH" 🙃I've found adam's work misses the mark in the past, and he tends to state his opinion as fact far too much. Great work ed, I think this video does a great job going over the flaws in his video in an even handed way.

[@GaiaLegend]

They always throw it on nostalgia, always. They don't have anything else as ammo. These people believe that changing a certain game, or certain genre's, is ALWAYS a good thing because ''change'' and ''evolution'' Well, thoughout the years, most monster taming franchises went bad and awful with their sequels, and live on because the first game was so good. Why are they bad? Because the game needs a ''forced'' change and we shouldn't be living in the past ''the whole nostalgia nonsense''

[@ethangnasher3848]

His takes are stupidly subjective yet tells them as a matter of fact, like in the RPG Trinity video, he says that we should move past that and a Game that does it is Divinity Original Sin 2, but the examples he gives just have to do with environmental reactions, completely oblivious that such thing isn't mutually exclusive from the Trinity and is just something a DPS character can take advantage on 9 times out of 10.

[@leichtmeister]

I have to say: even if Coromon for example was a more plain Pokemon rip off, the fact alone that your Coromon don't forget their moves but only can use four of the moves the know and you could have a different move set every fight fixes such a huge problem in Pokemon, would make Coromon just the better game.

[@ixyrt7096]

This, from his analysis I feel like he takes both excluding themselves statements: "These games are just pokemon ripoffs", and when game tries to do something differently he says "pokemon done that better". Also monster taming genre is very specific cause... Calling those games pokemon clones is like calling octopath a final fantasy clone or calling triangle strategy a fire emblem clone

[@TheRealAero]

I will say it definitely can depend on what gamers want, not everyone is on the nostalgia train. I’ll give an example, Pokémon (up to black and white) gave us a lot of nostalgia and relied on older gen Pokémon… fans complained and then we got black and white with entirely new Pokémon and fans were beyond upset but they had got what they asked for so it all depends on the individual gamer and what they want.

[@Leondragon06]

I played inital Pokemon games up end of GBA but got a DS it took too long for Pokemon to come to DS so gave my DS to my brother did not play Pokemon again until shortly before my wife and I got married she gave me a Zelda 3DS for Christmas then I started back up with Ultra Sun worked my way backward to Black and White they were some of my favorites but part of that was due to the story being dragon related. I did also actually like though it did not rely on Nostalgia as much as you were not able to use any of the pokemon from prior games until after beating the game forcing ya to use new Pokemon! =)

[@Ashamedofmypast]

The pokemon franchise never stopped relying on nostalgia from what ive seen. It just weaponises it differently eaxh installment. The genre is held back by nostalgia for sure but also budget. These games dont get the budgets of high level rpgs and that deffinetly hurts the genre more than nostalgia. For example black and white actually heavily used nostalgia to push itself. It had an analogue for all the 151 and capitalised on the idea it would be like experiencing red and blue for the very first time by not featuring the older pokemon. Was, in itself a play for nostalgia. But added a layer of narrative in a design aknowledgement that the players had grown up since red and blue. So gen 5 in ways is the most nostalgic gen as t is trying to retain older players and recreate gen 1 for both new and returning players

[@TheRealAero]

@@Leondragon06 I liked that they did something new, unfortunately a lot of people were upset so going forward, they went back to relying on older gens because they knew it would sell

[@scalpingsnake]

I love Black and White for being a complete new roster of pokemon. It's also why I have been enjoying Coromon.

[@thejack5952]

Upset about what exactly? When I played Black/White, my only complaints was that there were still HM moves needed to traverse through the game and trade evolutions.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

Pokemon ITSELF is a product of nostalgia. You will ALWAYS hear any Pokemon history essay talk about how Satoshi Tajiri loved collecting bugs as kid which was part of their idea for the game. Not to mention Pokemon has trading in the first place due to the devs having nostalgia for Dragon Quest games that they wish had a feature to trade. As far as I'm concerned, this is a complete double standard. It's fine when Pokemon ties itself down to the nostalgia for Dragon Quest games and bug collecting but when someone else does that with Pokemon, all of a sudden it's a problem. Next time someone says it's bad to be built on nostalgia, remind them that Pokemon is equally guilty of that. Disc Creatures is also a fantastic example too of falling into a retro style while still remaining more of its own thing.

[@stillbuyvhs]

I'm not really sure it was nostalgia for Dragon Quest, since Dragon Quest was only 4 years old when Game Freak started working on Pokemon. It's more like they decided to make their own RPG, with some improvements over the current market leader.

[@rafalb692]

@@stillbuyvhs Dragon Quest releast 1986 and pokemon gen 1 releast 1996. 10 years apart

[@stillbuyvhs]

​@@rafalb692 Pokemon had a long, slow development. It was started in 1990, as Capsule Monsters. Game Freak didn't have much experience working on games, so they had to start & stop & bring on Ape/Creatures Inc to help finish the game. GameFreak also worked on other games at the time, to prove to Nintendo that they knew how to make more than Mendel's Palace, Yoshi & the Game Boy Camera come to mind.

[@scalpingsnake]

I have been loving Coromon. I definitely still prefer pokemon but getting that pokemon feel but in a new setting, with different mechanics and new creatures to catch it's been great. I think just because Adam didn't stick with the game, that doesn't mean it's just nostalgia bait. I have been loving to actual difficult puzzles Coro has to offer and the new and interesting mons with new moves and abilities I have never experienced before.

[@themidnightotaku22]

I think it’s important to remember(and possibly summarize) while these four monster tamers may have been inspired by Pokémon, the devs of those “nostalgia-baited” games ultimately wanted more unique & fun takes on how these RPGs can play out. We probably could’ve said the same thing about buying a new car but that doesn’t make inspired designs any worse just because it shares the same basic features with an older model. In many cases it even improves on them.

[@PersonaPrime]

Yes. There is a big part of the monster taming fanbase that isn't open minded to other games aside from Pokemon. That is slowly getting better and better, but it still happens a lot.

[@SinfulLilPixie]

While I do wish Coromon had dual typing I really like that they have move specific typing with Magic, Foul, Heavy and Cut.

[@justsomejojo]

After watching both videos, I can't help but think that the problem might be iteration, not necessarily nostalgia. Nostalgia only affects how a person interacts with a medium - they can grow nostalgic for the old stuff, drop the new stuff and go back to playing the old stuff. Then there's people who absolutely eat up Coromon, Nexomon and the like because they serve the nostalgia but with a new coat of paint. That's because, as you mentioned, nostalgia is subjective. What DOES potentially hold those games back is the undeniable Popkemon inspiration. A lot of the more "pokemon clone-y" monstertaming games take systems very specific to Pokemon. My favorite example is pokeballs. These things were specifically used in Pokemon because they resemble gacha capsules - that's also why items are in pokeballs. They were originally just micro storage devices based on one of Pokemon's original inspirations. It is then really weird to see the concept reused with different more or less geometric shapes. Less specific but still VERY reminiscent are concepts like "you always play a child/teen going on a journey" or "you have a choice between 3 starters given to you by an authority in the field". That doesn't necessarily make those games worse as games, but I do think it holds them back in terms of becoming their own thing in the future. "This looks and plays like Pokemon" can be a great hook but I fear it might create a sort of "little brother effect" of always being associated with another brand. We already have that in the word "Pokemon clone".

[@janky477]

Yes it does. I will fully admit all I want from this genre is "Yet another Pokemon Game" which is why I was relatively apathetic about Pokémon Legends Arceus. I get comfort from playing something I had no choice but to play throughout my entire childhood, and this is what I want.

[@GymLeaderEd]

Yea and tbh there's nothing wrong with that and thats why these games are thriving in the indie scene. They build on the formula we love, add some unique mechanics and all around are a good time especially for classic Pokemon fans

[@janky477]

@@GymLeaderEd I still think there is a lot more that can be done with the genre, but I'm mostly completely comfortable with an Open Linear adventure with a Beginning middle and end that can be played completely different every single time you play it. I just love exploring new places, that's my favorite aspect of Monster Taming games.

[@The-0ni]

Just got done watching both videos back to back and while you both make good points, I gotta side with Adam for this one. Feel free to read my reasoning below. My experiences are based on my years playing Pokemon, Monster Rancher, Digimon, Azure Dreams and other monster games. I just recently beat the entire story for Temtem and completely understand why people say its still in Pokemon’s shadow. Temtem mimics pokemon/monster taming genre without actually making any crazy innovations. Temtem has a stamina/timed move system, unique status carry over system, prebattle banning, and an evolution system based on when you captured/bred vs set level. These innovations in the end game don’t distinguish it enough and are just barriers for entry to newer players. Call of Duty and Doom are both FPS but aren’t called clones because of the innovations and vast differences between them. Temtem however literally has the gym/dojo’s, 3 starters given by a professor, rival everyone hates, areas gated via terrain (water needs surf, rocks need to be climbed etc.), Starts in a small town with your Mom (Why can’t it be an older brother/sister or something besides a Mom???), evil gang trying to do evil thing. Honestly aside from seeing people running around and the potential for co-op I feel like I just played a pokemon game. A pokemon game, not a monster rancher or digimon or even generic monster genre game. The problem with this is Temtem does it worse. Max is an awful rival that in the end, the game wants you to like but fails. The ending fight and story ending of Temtem was not satisfying at all and came out of nowhere (not spoiling it). Breeding while easy to learn is even more tedious than pokemon, a game that forces you to bike in circles for hours. A lot of these features for temtem dont make the game actually challenging , they just eat up your time,create barriers for entry, or copying mechanics to prey on your nostalgia/expectations.

[@dgeneratio1]

I don't think so personally as Pokemon is only available on ONE platform (Switch) so if you want to play Pokemon you have to buy a Switch or an older Gameboy/DS System. The Newer Monster Taming Games try and come to EVERY Platform and that's the way it should be. Although Coromon isn't coming to Xbox or Playstation, Games like Nexomon are and believe me, not owning a Switch for a long time (and not buying the 3DS) left a big void where Pokemon should be. I understand that Pokemon is short for Pocket Monsters but times change and should try and come to PC and Consoles and not just Switch. However Nexomon filled that void nicely so even if Nexomon was done for Nostaligia reasons it had a benefit as players can play where they want rather than be forced to buy one system.

[@GymLeaderEd]

Thats actually a really good point that I thought about when I was rendering the video lmao

[@Misora31]

I don't think it's likely to happen though. Nintendo has a large stake in the Pokémon company which means all of the incentives are towards keeping Pokémon mainline on Nintendo consoles in order to boost sales. If Nintendo ever stops making consoles or sells off their partial ownership of the ip it might happen, but that's highly unlikely.

[@GymLeaderEd]

@@Misora31 oh hell no they're never going to make Pokemon non Nintendo. I think the point OP was trying to make is that these other mongames give non Nintendo console owners a chance to play

[@fdprado72]

I think for the most part what holds back monster taming genre is how so many of them have a very similar vibe to pokemon. There is a reason why people say coromon is a pokemon clone( but I never heard anyone say the same to Monster sanctuary, for instance). I remember I was talking about something I didn't like in discord and the response to it was: "Oh, but that's how it is in pokemon too", and I'm like, but I don't like pokemon? And that's the problem with the genre, too many games have very similar mechanics to pokemon, so they more or less just attract pokemon fan. People who don't like pokemon, especifically combat system of pokemon probably will not like coromon, instead they would probably love much more monster sanctuary. Unfortunately, I think there are more monster tamer similar to coromon then to monster sanctuary, because coromon is heavily inspired by pokemon just like other monster taming games. I can give you myself as an example: I hate the pokemon battle system (for pve I mean, I don't like pvp so no idea how that's like), so every game in the future you showcase that has a similar battle style to it it's a immediately no for me. It's also not even that difficult (I think) to verify what I'm saying, just need to research how many players of Coromon, for example, also plays and likes pokemon and you'll have an idea of how much player base there is in common, and then according to the result it's pretty easy to conclude if there are new people coming into the genre or if it's just pokemon fans switching games. (which means people who don't like pokemon probably won't like coromon either, which leads to what I said in the beginning, games like pokemon holding the genre back because it's just the same people playing them)

[@DanteCrowlley]

Nostalgia does holds it back sometimes, I call it Pokemon effect actually, since Pokemon became (wanting it or not) THE MONSTER TAMING GENRE representative, 99% percent of monster taming will take Pokemon as THE CORE MECHANICS, 'n since Pokemon have lots of games, specially gen 1 to 5, everyone will use this nostalgia to make games, to try to make the old Pokemon games in a more modern game design, which leads to my common com sayin' X game looks like a Pokemon rip off, its mostly the Pokemon effect the game had on the devs, even I would make a similar weakness system if I made a game like this, its just too good to change actually, but I would like to make something less Pokemon 'n more monster taming in general, mixing up the games, experimentation etc, some ppl will play safe while others will take risks to follow their own ideas while using Pokemon as base, so does this means nostalgia holds back? Yes, but actually no as I stated before

[@gatex33d74]

The point where he said "pokemon knockoff I just logged off mentally Saying that of any of these games (except temtem) is just straight up braindead

[@dangernoodle5831]

Initially I agreed with points from their video but eventually found that it was rather lacking in nuance and depth. I think his point that a game can unnecessarily bring over aspects from their inspirations that may not suit the game well, could serve as an interesting possible discussion, but his approach to it is rather reductive and simplistic. As in many of his examples are poorly explained and don’t really justify why certain mechanics are ‘bad’ and feel more like they’re looking at it too much just from games and aspects he personally does or doesn’t like.

[@GymLeaderEd]

Yea I thought it was a good video but could've used a more nuanced approach in some aspects like the taming. His points about nostalgia being better than what we remember is spot on though haha. All in all a good video just felt the need to push back a bit.

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

Where does he say bad mechanics?

[@dangernoodle5831]

@@rafresendenrafresenden.1644 it was in the original vid, Ed mostly skipped those segments to focus on the mon games. They specifically point out games like Sekiro or Yooka Laylee (in relation to Banjo-Kazooie) or refers to Boomer Shooters. For example with Boomer Shooters they point out the maze-like structure of its level design, referring to it as padding. A holdover from nostalgia. However they don’t explain why this approach in design is inherently bad and comes off more as them just not being a fan of this particular design approach.

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

Explaining that feels pointless, because you just end in a "but I like that" infinite loop. We can understand what was his point.

[@abbieburton2794]

@@dangernoodle5831 Oh jeez glad I skipped that part because I would've become even more triggered then. MAZES ARE FUN IN FPS GAMES IWjuqqw0-riqa0-wi "Local man passes off opinion as fact"

[@pages4573]

While I can see some of his points, I'd be lying if I said it somewhat feels he wants innovation for the sake of it. That in itself isn't bad, but as others point out I feel that he sort of wants to turn the genre into something else rather than enjoying it for what it is. His comment about metriod for example. Of course metriod will take iconography from the previous it's part of the same series. There isn't really anything wrong with that. He also kind of fails at bringing up what the games do differently, and while Coromon and Nexomon are VERY similar to pokemon. I think Monster Crown has much more in common with Dragon Quest monsters than any pokemon game.

[@zanzazaar]

Partially right, partially bullshit. There are traditions. Like monster taming starters. Without them game would be like Dark Souls without bosses. Or GTA without car damage. Or racing games without customization. Or Elder Scrolls without bugs. There are issues in monster taming games. Some of them can be connected to nostalgia. Like dumb plot, npc like from 30 years old jRPGs. Basically, blank worldbuilding like in the old games. That is not mentioned in his video. Those issues mentioned in this video are things that I personally like in monster taming games. Like monster similar to Pokemon that I like? The hell if I have a problem with that. I paid for that, to have pokemon-like game but without real issues from the original.

[@ethangnasher3848]

Elder Scrolls without bugs, LMAO.

[@cozydayzandnightz]

That was a really nice response video. I must admit, I agree it would be nice if people stopped using the term "Pokemon-clone".

[@amphibien8264]

I wish he played these games more before making video essays about them. I do agree nostalgia kinda holds back some of these games including Pokemon itself, but the way he gets the point across feels wrong when he hasn't given any of these games a real chance.

[@Tam_Hawkins]

The grind in temtem is neither (as Ed said) a problem with monster taming games nor is it a problem with temtem. It is a problem with mmorpgs. The devs of temtem have for some reason taken upon themself the task to make an pokemon like/MMorpg-Like game. But instead of making a well thought out game that unites both of these gametypes into one new experience they have created a single player game and glued every single bad facet of MMORPGs onto it, while leaving out all the good and enjoyable parts of an mmorpg. They try to fix this, but what I have seen of their efforts until now only makes it worse. I do not think they have ever played anMMRPG for a long time, or if they did they do not understand the genre. They have also already declared that they do not plan to give temtem the support that long running mmorpgs normally have, which makes me wonder why they even started doing that....

[@FullMoonDeria]

I actually commented to that video a few months ago, since I had really been getting back into monster taming as a genre back then. I admitted that in the case of Monster Crown specifically there were visual nostalgic pings, but that the game really captured and held my attention on its own merits. I was mostly drawn in by the darker story and the crossbreeding, as well as the fact that you basically have to earn the respect of every monster you recruit. Even the little Meerlin you can catch in a quest won't join until you've dealt it some damage even if your party is double its level. For me as a gamer, the little details are often what matters in whether nostalgia is good or bad in relation to a game. I actually struggle to blanket-summarize anything because of it. Also I am a sucker for pixel art that makes me feel like a world is very alive, such as in Coromon. That's not nostalgia, that's just a preference.

[@AkkinAnimrac]

It really is subjective and based on your own opinions and likes. I personally love very similar pokemon-like games, such as Coromon, Nexomon, and TemTem but I don't find Monster Crown nor Monster Santuary as appealing. I havent bought a pokemon game since gen 5 because I was just so disappointed with the directions they went.

[@FTChomp9980]

I like the Monster Taming genre as a whole and I get Nostalgia does add a factor for some people but as for the Monstsr Taming Genre a lot of the games are different from one another and stand out the Monster Taming Game I'm nostalgic for is Fossil Fighters that was a part of my childhood growing up. You can you use Nostalgia for the good or you can use it for evil it just how each Company uses it. But the Monster Taming Genre is more then just nostalgia it adds a lot into the genre that separates itself from Pokemon each Developer does there own thing and I love that.

[@DOCTORmakenstuff]

i love Catch-A-mon games its not just about nostalgia

[@TsukiraLuna]

Huh, I like that term. Way better then the too often used 'Pokemon-clone'.

[@FTChomp9980]

Monster Taming Genre or Catch a Thon Genre works either way.

[@DOCTORmakenstuff]

@@FTChomp9980 that's neat too

[@TsukiraLuna]

@@DOCTORmakenstuff I fully agree on those things. Monster Tamer is also a great one, but it's a term that includes a broader scope of games and in no way do I mean to say that Catch-a-Mon should ever replace it. Only the term Pokeclone, that one has long overstayed it's welcome.

[@suicune2001]

His video was very good but you made some excellent points too. It was pretty clear he only had surface level experiences with those games and didn't seem to look for what made them different, only what made them the same. But this kind of thing is good to keep in mind since I'm trying to make my own monster tamer game. It's a real shame some people in the Pokemon community scared off Yo-Kai Watch since I liked those games. :( Their show was pretty hilarious too. When I look at Monster Crown, I don't see Pokemon. I actually see that Diamond rom hack Telefang. lol. It's basically impossible to make a truly unique game. Oh, you have a game that captures something and uses it in battle? You're just copying Pokemon. You have a guy with a sword running around? You're copying Zelda. But like with games/books/movies, the important thing is do you mix up the formula enough to where it's still enjoyable.

[@midnight1978]

People tent to call other Monster-Taming-Games "Pokemon-Clones" which is fine in itself to give you an idea of what the game feels like. But in my opinion it's also very dismissing towards this Games since it basically calls them Rip-Offs

[@Reddotzebra]

I'd still say the SoulsLike games (And in fact the RogueLike games as well) get a lot of free nostalgia bonuses through sunk cost fallacy. Such a great extent of those genres consists of learning each individual game, their enemies, map layouts and combat systems, and the remainder more or less consist of making your own build and trying to beat the game over and over again that most people that have stuck with it is going to automatically have a greater than normal amount of nostalgia for it once the experience is over. "I spent more than four hundred hours on this game, so surely it's the best game ever!"

[@keithwinget3450]

Thanks for this video response. I was having some of these same thoughts about that video. I think Adam was being far too reductive when considering nostalgia in the first place, and when contextualizing specific titles as well. Interestingly, this entire topic is basically about how a genre comes into being. We wouldn't have genres if not for this process. Everything would somehow miraculously be entirely new. In reality, everything is a reference to things that came before. This is true in a physical as well as literal sense. I am derivative of my parents, and humanity is derivative of all other animals that came before it evolutionarily. In the same sense, genres emerge in game development, and people complain about nostalgia-seeking designers. The conclusions in Adam's video are crude and shallow, demonstrating a lack of diligence I think is unbecoming of someone who's intent (or implied intent) is to speak with authority on such things.

[@ultranativefric]

Glad you did a response to this video. I saw it yesterday and while I agreed with some things, I agree he missed the mark even with other indie games and categorized them all as shallow. I was surprised he even had a negative view of Sekiro. It’s very clear as he said in the video, he only played a few hours of each and didn’t get to explore every unique aspect of these games. I get to some extent that not every mon game doesn’t have to do a Pokémon battle setup, top down view. But yeah even with Monster Crown, he should’ve gone far enough to see that you obtain your “starters” a different way (quiz). And that the monsters are vastly different from Pokémon’s designs. Hopefully he sees this and changes his mind/gives them all another chance.

[@Spudmay]

Wonderful video. You have a great way of putting things that shows patience and intelligence, as well as standing up for what you enjoy.

[@GymLeaderEd]

Thank you! 😊

[@rotomfan63]

"I don't like how grindy temtem is" they say about the MMO, cause MMO's that are also RPG's have NEVER HAD GRINDING IN THEM

[@markuswithak5084]

UGH...and now I miss Yokai Watch again...those 3DS games were legit more entertaining than Pokémon gen7 for a short while

[@shadowphantom2]

I have always felt like monster collecting games have had a variety of interests in terms of why people like to play them that innovation in the genre can be very difficult to pin down due to that interest kinda blind sighting oneself to the other changes that may be occurring ( Though It is fine to not be interested in everything a game offers if you don’t find it enjoyable for oneself) However, I do feel monster collecting games can still expand or try out new ideas that isn’t tied to how we have come to expect them. Like having an actual evolutionary growth for monsters occur

[@teifan6674]

I also love how the part where he brings up the other games which failed for being so similar to their predecessors that they also emulated their flaws and did not get what was so good about them has nothing to do with the rest of his arguments or the monster taming games he was talking about. I just realized this now listening to it from your video but it's a complete non sequitur. These games copying the stuff from pokemon that fans did not like is not a complaint he puts forward except casually while talking about temtem and all of these mt games... like are really well received and succesful and have been for quite some time? Like people who buy them and leave reviews don't really seem to feel like they are too archaic or hit a turning point where they snap and leave. If the argument is I don't like this then it's fine but if the argument is "it does not work", like, buddy, I don't know how to tell you this, but...

[@Vasileva85]

Tagging the Pokémon screen as Digimon during the “three step capture process” argument 🙃

[@JunkyardCactus]

Yes. I long for the day when developers stop latching onto the terrible pokemon combat formula. It is boring, it is overdone and it is ultimately too flawed design-vise. Pick one pokemon, teach it a strong stab move, overlevel the shit out of it, have it blast through the entire game by repeating the same move over and over. No strategy, no variety, nothing.

[@GymLeaderEd]

I mean tbf a lot of these games introduce stamina, temtem brought forth the hold mechanic, etc so that you can't just spam strong moves with no repercussions

[@JunkyardCactus]

@@GymLeaderEd yeah, games like Temtem, Monster sanctuary, Siralim and few others do a great job of coming up with something much more unique and interesting. Unfortunately games like these are few and far between. Most monster taming games just choose to follow the same old formula unfortunately, with little to no change that end up not making any difference. As much as I’d love to like Coromon, it suffers from the same fatal flaw pokemon does - you can still spam through it because weaknesses matter less than strong stab moves.

[@GymLeaderEd]

@@JunkyardCactus I think you're really going to like cassette beasts when it comes out, not sure if you saw my stream but they have a really cool ap system, chemistry type system, fusions, etc.

[@JunkyardCactus]

@@GymLeaderEd I’ve seen the notification, but did not get around to watching it just yet. Thanks for the recommendation, it sounds really promising. I’ll check it out.

[@QKlilx]

@@JunkyardCactus Isn't that the point of most turn-based JRPGs, though? Use attacks that are effective against the enemy. For bosses or other tough battles, do a bit of setup via stat moves. Pokemon gets shoveled into this corner even more since it's 1v1, rather than 3-4 v however-many. It's not so much how combat works, it's the systems around the combat. And that's where Pokemon falters: there is very little that goes into prepping for a battle. Monster Sanctuary is a great example of how it should be done. Typing makes a big difference in the damage dealt, the combo system adds a light puzzle to each round, monster builds can vary wildly, the shift system adds a new layer to late-game builds, monster synergy is crucial to win tough fights... You CAN spam strong moves in Monster Sanctuary, but it's better to set them up to maximize damage.

[@jamiemccreath3959]

I kind of agree with both of you and I think what's key is the beginning of these games - my experience with Pokemon-likes (and I suspect Adam's) has been that the first minutes or even hours of these games don't show the player what they offer beyond Pokemon, leading me to put it down before reaching what makes it great.

[@thejack5952]

Nostalgia is one thing, but when i see a game from a well known franchise producing a new game, I expect new things from said game. Like new mechanics, new gameplay, new everything and changes to the game that fix old mechanics that may have restricted the player from playing said game at it's full potential. I also grew to care little for graphics. Unlike other kiddie minded gamers who rely on how pretty a game looks to determine if it's good, I research the game and look up gameplay footage to see if it's worth my time.

[@jeancarlodelaluz6415]

Nostalgia with "copying" designs is something unfair since many people see various things in their own way. Loch ness monster and other mythical creatures. There's the archetype we follow and the one we try to make. In my case I have to change the name of fighting moves, monster names that rhyme or sound catchy, and other similarities while also looking unique. It is unfair but we have to deal with these things besides the copyright BS.

[@deirdrelavey4192]

Coming from someone who really enjoys TemTem, I think you missed the point of Millards video a bit. The point he was making isn't "pokemon>other taming games" but "constant needless references to pokemon draws our attention away from the game we're playing and towards pokemon" which is... just kinda true, at least for the start of TemTem. Let's take an example. At the start of TemTem, you're presented with a choice of 3 starters in a rock-paper-scissors typing trio. Immediatly my mind went to trying to frame these starters in terms of pokemon-and I immediatly found it weird and a little off-putting that they had, in my mind, changed grass to crystal. The type matchups also felt very unintuitive for a long time-why does "basically psychic"-type hit itself for neutral damage? Because TemTem uncritically copied this aspect of Pokemon, it caused my attention to be drawn away from the game itself and broke my immersion. TemTem could have, instead of copying Pokemons 3-starter choices system, done something like the player getting to pick from 4 different teams of 3 starters, with each team having a particular playstyle, and showing off some aspect of TemTem's combat system? And there are other areas where TemTem copied Pokemon potentially to its own detriment rather than finding something that worked for the game itself. For example, having 6 party slots-surely in an MMO, party slots could somehow be tied to progression-maybe at the start you had 2 party slots, going up to 7 as you went through the story, with an 8th and 9th slot available as rewards for doing end-game raids? There are lots of ways to play with this, and TemTem just doesn't. Like you mentioned, a lot of this goes away as you spend more time with the game. That said, it's totally reasonable to judge a game based your experiences after only a few hours. It's unfair to ask someone to spend 10+ hours before judging or reviewing a game, and even if it wasn't, the new-player experience is extremely important for any game.

[@denysvision]

that does not mean that Millards example such as nexomon, coromon and monster crown are good ones, not every monster taming genres need to be on the pokemon umbrella, is like saying that yo-kay, shin megami tensei, digimon and dragon quest monsters where are pokemon inspired, that's not how it works, and Millaird's mistake is that sometimes he thinks that some game genres made by indie devs where inspired by big IP's instead of been it's own thing and i bet millaird did not ment to say that not gonna lie but i need to point out some mistakes he made since no one is perfect

[@jeancarlodelaluz6415]

All these videos help out with my projects. Gotta be unique and invent something that is both fun and strategic but still enjoyable so it has replayability.

[@JML689]

Adam Millard seems to be suffering from a double-standard that applies to many genres. Those some critiques can apply to First-Person shooters as well, and the Battle Royal modes. Nobody says they are "copying" or being reminded of "insert other first-person franchise here."

[@exoxultrum4131]

I do agree that nostalgia is holding them back to some extent. Most of these games follow a 3 stage evolution line almost religiously, which is a damn shame imo. I would love to see branching evolutions. Another saddening trend I've noticed is not so subtlety copying the pokemon Dex trend. Weak bird pokemon, bee Pokemon, etc all at the beginning of the game. There's literally billions of animal species to borrow from, surely they don't have to stick with the same skeleton as pokemon. Because IMO this is a major weakness of pokemon! I got TIRED of seeing the same sort of mouse/bird/bee/cat/dog structure in every one of the games. Mix it up I say! There's other games to borrow from that do some things better than pokemon. Take the good from Pokemon, Digimon,Shin Megami Tensei, and leave the bad. Edit: Also this guy's opinion is whack for not giving each game at least 10 hours, and then critiquing them harshly. If you're gonna judge actually PLAY the games a good chunk. Way to spit in the face of the dev teams.

[@unomaoguagha4467]

I think the MT rpg help keep the memory of pokemon alive so its not about being a knock off its about the essence

[@azzakreddevilman5920]

Some arguments can be said that nostalgia stagnates the potential of games as it did for sword and shield. But a truly great game adapts the best of those points and adapts them to change our opinions of how they can be used like are us did. A good example for this is monster sanctuary which gives us the what we want. Companies should look to consumers and can make profits off the hunger to replay an old game on a new console, the proceeds could be used to further new projects.

[@zerokura]

Nostalgia kind of helps with me a little like if I don't understand what a game is but than I noticed it's farming like harvest moon or leveling up skills like Elder Scroll (darn you elder rings I don't even play you&was about to type ring than scrolls). But I guess those are ideas being used than Nostalgia.

[@jaredfayette2567]

A bit late on my end, but I would also like to chip in on this matter. While I think Millard has a VERY valid point about nostalgia potentially being a weakness and people over rely can stifle creativity, I think when he was talking about the various monster taming games, he used the absolute worst examples for that point and made the games look far worse than they actually are. There's very much a difference between inspiration and being a copy cat, and from what I've seen and experienced myself with these games, they are very much in the former. Though they experiment from the ideas from Pokemon, I think nothing is wrong with them taking their own spin and creating their own thing that has roots and inspiration from the old. One does not need to reinvent the wheel for every single game in the genre. Of course, monster taming games that are new and different that don't take inspiration from Pokemon are absolutely welcomed, but I don't think we should shoot down anything that has resemblance to the old. Worst part is and probably the most ironic matter on his video is that I think Pokemon itself is far more guilty of over relying on nostalgia and stifling its creativity in some respects compared to these "knock offs." I'm not going to go too deep in it here since I'm sure you guys have heard former Pokemon fans like myself complain enough, but I'm sure you've heard of the many examples from the extreme Kanto and Charizard pandering to the over faithfulness of the BDSP to the original games and not using much of the Platinum stuff when people wanted it. Cases like those is where I feel nostalgia really hamper the capabilities of the series. Though I'm not engaged with it, I'm glad those who still are get something like Legends Arceus since it clearly shows there is still a great deal of creativity with Pokemon, there just needs to be more tack about it and the series needs to learn more self control over when it comes to its application of nostalgia. Yeah overall, while I think he very much has a point and nostalgia and how it can be easily misused, he absolutely missed the mark when it came to evidence and might have further solidified people's notions of the "There's only Pokemon and everything else is a ripoff" mentality. Honestly hope that isn't the case, but it is a fear I came out from the video alongside being sad about how he wasted what could have been a great argument on nostalgia. Apologies if I came off overly negative or jaded about that video, but those were just my thoughts about it. To those who took the time to read this, many thanks and have a nice day.

[@ethangnasher3848]

I think aspiring developers should try at least one SMT (Persona, MegaTen or some other spin-off) game plus a Dragon Quest Mon-tamer so they have other frames of reference and don't take too much from just Pokémon subconsciously. Also, the elemental affinity system is much better than the element typing imo, and the press turn system still has a lot of room for experimentation (just saying).

[@AmaranthOriginal]

I used to consume a bunch of shameless ripoffs because I wanted more from the genre, and that's basically what I knew was out there. It kinda bummed me out I couldn't find other games like Pokemon. Now I'm getting to try a bunch of fresh takes on the genre, and I love it. Not every game is for me, that's fine. But I enjoyed Nexomon and beat it. I'm on Coromon now, and enjoy it as its own game (even if I wish it had a few QOL moves from later Pokemon games). I did not know about Monster Crown, but that or Cassette Beasts will be my next game. Nostalgia is neither setting up my expectations nor letting me down

[@NeroTheAngel]

Ever played ADORE? Its a little "Indie Rogue-Like Monster Taming Game" on Steam. Which takes the Monster Taming formula and through them over with a real Time battle system and the rogue-Like mechanic. Besides that it have unique looking monster which you never saw before.

[@leichtmeister]

Coromon has literally Weird Al Yankovic singing Amish Paradise to you...how can one not love this game?

[@_Rhatsody]

you say you dont fault the guy for not being in the know but if youre whole thing is making a video about nostalgia being bad and using specific titles as examples: him not thoroughly researching makes a bad video. its ill-researched

[@zorrento14]

It's funny to hear your response about nostalgia while playing Pokemon music in the background lol

[@nazeersadek6705]

I found it fitting then he was responding to someone else video lol

[@xyceres]

To me this video feels a little too standoffish at Adam for what amounts to a pretty valid criticism of at least 3 of the 4 games mentioned (I haven't played monster crown to say). He did mention towards the start of the video bouncing off all 4 games, and the 3 of these games I have played take a while to introduce mechanics outside things reminiscent of Pokémon. Game designers only have around 2 hours to get a player invested in a game (most people drop most games at or before this point). Adam has a really good video on this as well and it's one of his most watched. For Coromon I think this puts you just a tiny bit before the point when the puzzle like gameplay really kicks off that makes the story mode so enjoyable. For Temtem has it's deterministic double battles on display straight away but really needs some of the late game side activities to really pop and you need to beat kisiwa before you see those. For Nexomon extinction, I gave up looking for something to enjoy after 13 hours of play. I really did not like this one. The examples he used of dual typing and grind were pretty good examples too. Dual typing is not just intrinsically better it's better for these games cause they are closer to Pokémon. Games like Siralim ultimate or Digimon Story Cybersleuth I don't think would be improved by dual typing because they use there types differently then Pokémon, Nexomon, or Coromon. The grind mentioned by Adam was the story levelling grind caused by the difficulty of the game whereas the grind your talking about (and identified by crema) is more late game oriented, both are problems, but the the story levelling grind actually isn't that bad if your experience come from mmos or jRPGs but it feels a lot worse if you come from a Pokémon background. The late game grind you mentioned could also be argued to be another symptom of the nostalgia not being implemented correctly. The SV and TV systems are only slightly modified versions of IV and EV systems (presumably with inflated numbers so they end on round numbers so people can understand them better) from Pokémon but they feel soo soo much worse because Pokémon has hacked Pokémon (especially 6iv ditto) making breeding easier and the power items for EV training. They are also not similar to systems typically used in related genres like jRPGs which are likely to use set stats or stat allocation. The trainer every like 4 steps is also something that happened a lot in older Pokémon games level designs. I actually think that being close to Pokémon is a problem in the 3 games I've played, All mechanics I can think of that I don't like were either Pokémon DNA directly or with only some minor tweaks. I also think that those toxic Pokémon fans mentioned that lash out at games that are further away is not antithetical to the idea presented but a symptom of the backlash against changed mechanics writ large. I'd go so far as to say that of the 2 games I like I liked them despite the similarities to Pokémon dragging them down and being further distanced may have made them more enjoyable. I do feel like the video was a little unfair showing only a negative light on monster taming as a genre (Thou I did note he never actually mentioned these games as a genre and was specifically talking about 4 example games that all draw inspiration from Pokémon), especially as it stands now where it's a mostly indie space. I think a mention of a mongame that did it well was warranted (and monster sanctuary would have been a great spot for that). Also I think a lot of the games you cover (or have covered) on this channel do do nostalgia right (Monster Sanctuary, Monster Hunter Stories 2, Abomi Nation for some examples) I just don't see it the same way with these particular ones.

[@urkerab]

Nostalgia was better back in my day.

[@dynamon911nz]

Whats the Better solution to leviate on nostalgia trend by balancing or removing ? I dont had anything to feel to nostalgic execpt Just remembering my way on playing probaly im different person to think like these. But im not giving up support both RPG pokemon like and the original game that started all for inspiring these. Im personaly Happy what we are getting currently no matter how nostalgic Is. It gonna stay for future generation to come.

[@abbieburton2794]

My brain did a backflip when he mentioned grinding in relation to temtem. That game is not grindy in the slightest for the campaign (endgame diff story ofc), sounds like a skill issue to me XD

[@davehoffman515]

Early game is a grind or at least was. Last year I was able to do maybe 3 battles before running back to heal because typing was limited. Now that I'm out of the starter zone the game has opened up quite a bit and the combat system feels much better.

[@abbieburton2794]

@@davehoffman515 I will agree the backtracking is quite an issue, and IMO the campaign would flow far better if they gave you more uses of the temessence vial full heal early game, but he mentioned level grinding not backtracking which I think is false.

[@thekoolkrab3226]

Yeah I don’t think the main story is that bad with grinding The endgame on the other hand…

[@texus835]

I guess without thinking much about it I would mainly focus on me being a story (explore and if it's good enough maybe pvp even if I barely do that) kinda guy. I know you stopped counting examples at some point but I started the comment anyway, sometimes I'm not entirely sure myself what I want, but some little stuff about Nexomon and Coromon hold me back from trying them out currently. Nexomon 1 especially which I remember as the Handy game and how rare Nexomon worked. Coromon, I didn't liked the character heads and somehow got bored in the demo, which might be because I knew I had to play it again or which I'm unsure of, I actually didn't liked it in some way. I can see Coromon being good but I don't trust myself with it unless a better sale appears currently. I still hope Casette beasts will be the one for me, even if I noticed them looking a tiny bit like Coromons pineapple head main chars. edit: okay I know how that sounds but is there really another way to ask? I don't want to sound mean and it's not like I have no idea or can guess why, but I'm still interessted to hear it. Why are stuff like those backers or whatever mentioned in every video all the time?, I assume they feel like they get rewarded somehow? It seems to make somewhat proud I guess.

[@Prrprrlmao]

For me personally there is no nostalgia at all and there actually can't be. I am 20 years old and in my friend group there are like 15-16 year olds that have never played on the old Nintendos and Gameboys yet love the franchise from the media and we were excited to play the games but they are just too old. I spent a few hours playing Pokemon Red but it did stuck me as not that interesting seeing everything just black white and stuff like that, while I can't just jump on the newer games since I will be missing context and stuff, so it is nice to have games like Nexomon and Coromon so that I can experience the joy of playing this genre while not struggling with playing old games, or games with missing lore

[@NicromeShooter]

I'm a little annoyed that this was only about other games using similar concepts from another and not partially about how games in their own games abuse nostalgia. A huge example is Breath of the Wild. It has a myriad of issues that make the game really unfun, but people are willing to power through it cause it is a Zelda game. This in my opinion is the worst kind of nostalgia where the brand sells the title. As what Pokemon had done there games are starting to become increasingly worse. As each release comes out, because the brand sells the games. WOW is another example of this where the game is so old and uses an almost universally hated fighting system ATB. Where the only reason why it still thrives is because of the people who use to play it. There are even examples of books, and movies that don't hold up today. Cause writing universally has gotten better and people are more aware of it. Big one being Star Wars and Harry Potter. They play heavily off of nostalgia at this point, but have fallen severely off. I will never expect my kids to power through 4, 5, and 6 or the original 3 of Star Wars. Cause it's so out of date and frustrating to watch plus the vague unexplained powers stick just doesn't work anymore. As why DC is nowhere as Popular as Marvel has been. Harry Potter doesn't have the same glaring issues, but so many things just don't make sense and the story get's more ridiculous as you go. Finding out there is practically no limit to magic, but some people are just stronger with it for some reasons. Where Hogwarts Legacy has to force this Ancient magic idea to make your character feel special. I will say Star Wars has heavy merits, but this is mostly focused around the droids and the clones before Darth Vader as this is a strong and interesting flavor that people want to experience. As the jedi have just become this annoying thing that some people just wished would go away. This is the worst kind of Nostalgia. Liking something cause of the brand or cause you grew up with it. It hurts creative freedom of smaller devs. As this Nostalgia is why this guy makes so many comparisons to pokemon. Another thing I would like to point out is People are tiring of the turn-based genre. It's sad, but this is because most turn-based fights are just stat checks and not much better. It's hard to make a turn-based game feel truly challenging and another problem is mobile games. As so many use turn-based gameplay to exhibit idle play. Setting things to auto-battle and locking the fights going faster behind pay walls. A big game that tried to put this format in game form was Dragon Quest Monsters and it is a slog, because it's just run at things auto-battler. With barely anything to keep your interest in the game. As action games are gaining heavier appeal as that is your skill at work. You are playing that good and so on and so forth and you have a reason to keep your intention on the game. As FF7 remake is a much needed departure from the original and was Final Fantasy biggest move out of the ATB playstyle they adopted for many years. Yes FF14 is still popular with it's ATB, but if FInal fantasy made an Action oriented MMO it more then likely would kill FF14 not to mention that the games quality is held back by being originally made for the PS3. Just like if WOW did the same thing. People hate gameplay that feels long and unresponsive. Isometric turn-base is doing fine though, but that is completely different then standard turn-based. More and more people want Isometric turn-based games. As they are more engaging and feel more challenging and tactical. The fights aren't the same click a move and attack each round. You got to think about where your units are going and who they attack and a lot of them don't let you grind endlessly to make the game easier and some even if you do that make the game harder with you or play like a souls-like. This is also a big reason why people are so infatuated with Palworld as you don't have to deal with that nonsense and it truly feels like you get to fight with your pals. Lastly I would like to talk about how monster games try to use similar concepts from pokemon and the huge issues with that. This also happens in other genres like mobas with League of legends. They mostly copy the formula they have going on and add to it. Not shifting too far away. Two big issues I have with Pokemon is it's nature system and IV system. Nature being the lesser of two evils is still something you can spend hours on to get the right nature for the pokemon you want it's not fun and it kills the concept of pokemon. It's no longer gotta catch-em all and pokemon are my friend and it's now. I gotta catch 50 of this pokemon to use one and trash all the rest. Cause they aren't good enough and then the IV system way worse where the only way to deal with it is to spend tons of time setting up a breeding system and still it is gonna take a long time. These systems are frustrating and prolong the gameplay in a bad way. EV's on the other hand is something you completely control and take much less time to get where you want and so many monster tamers. Use the bad IV system. Palworld and Temtem for example. They are just frustrating and not tangible another problem the pokemon has that other monster tamers adopt is not being to truly able to use any Pokemon you want. As they have heavily differing stat distributions. This also comes with forced to evolve. Example for me. My favorite pokemon is Bulbasaur, but I know that if I don't evolve it to Venasaur it will be nowhere as strong and even if I did that. There are still better Pokemon then Venasaur. It doesn't give you that sense of being a trainer that can train any pokemon to be the best. It makes you feel like the Antagonist of the Pokemon series. Where if you want better Pokemon you got to catch it. As a lot of people point about the show. Is why is team rocket after a weak Pikachu. All in all the Monster taming genre needs to stay away from taking too many ideas from Pokemon's games and trying to be more like the show. Which Palworld does well and is the closest Monster tamer I know of, but still uses IV's in it's overall system and has the strong creature balance issues that pokemon also shares. I grew up with Pokemon and have gotten more fed up with them as I got older and when I reached adulthood I thought they would be so much better. Sadly they aren't and a lot there projects outside of the main series have been scrapped. My favorite games still being the Colliseum games that have never been on any console except for the one they were made for and the first mystery dungeon game that has a wonderful story, but a gameplay that still leaves a lot to be desired. Thankfully they remade it. Pokemon still does the annoying thing of releasing two versions of the same game. Anyone making a Monster Tamer. Should look at Pokemon and say this is nothing like I wanted and try to make something new and innovative. Like Palworld where pals fell more akin to partners then pokemon has ever felt.

[@talenstout8324]

I get annoyed when people call Monster taming games as POKÉMON clones. But close to POKÉMON is what makes them good as Monster taming games, for example ( turn based battles, capture item, shines that act the same as the non shiny form, is an rpg, always makes sense with the lore and not randomized or making the monsters unusable ). POKÉMON stories are underrated. 3d looks way better.

[@fluffymonster396]

I find it odd that he used indie titles to push his point. I agree that nostalgia is used far too much to make up for a product being poor, but you get that less with indie games since they're passion projects and not stuffy suits telling game devs what to make. I feel as though a better case could be made against many AAA titles, though tbh I feel this is more of an issue in TV shows and Movies. I don't mean any disrespect when I say this, but it sounds like to me he just doesn't like the monster taming genre (like how someone may not like horror titles or metrovania).

[@v-repmon2322]

It's funny I started playing nexomon because of this channel and I already hate to see it bashed by someone who I'm not sure played it, also I've had to live hearing digimon is a pokemon clone forever. I really don't like the pokemon Fandom because they harass other monster tamers, it's irritating. Finally I like turn based why does so many people say that's boring it's fun.

[@luistoses]

Thank you so much for your response.

[@damonwhalen4684]

I think 3d is holding games back for cost to make, time to make, storage, cross platform use(cyberpunk 2077), and graphic card capable

[@nazeersadek6705]

I honestly think Adam’s video has some good points but is very badly researched

[@Chris-wj6pn]

Hot take: "MLB The Show" is held back by nostalgia for major league baseball. ;)

[@fantaguzziniko]

I dont think so, its imposible to play temtem for nostalgia feeling. I play it because it is good! Same to coromon. Also that guy is wrong generalizing on his personal pov. (My english is bad sorry haha).

[@Tolly7249]

I really feel like he missed everything that makes the four mon games he talked about so much fun. While they're not all for me, I've sunk obscene amounts of time into Nexomon, and I don't need to have played the other three to understand that they're all very different games. I just have to fundamentally disagree with every point of his you brought up.

[@digiing1992]

[-_-] if someone judges Monster Taming games only by comparing it with Pokémon, then they have no business to do any judging in the first place. Even with similarities. Not that it is limited only to this genre though. People find a game series, create a safety bubble with it and leash out at any thing that doesn't belong to it. Look no further as Sony becoming all cancer because of CoD right now, for the biggest recent example.

[@STARS048]

the reasion why Yooka-Laylee is like Banjo-kazzoie corse personaly I miss the first two B&K games and with what B&K has become (Nuts & Bolts *gags*), so if I what to play that classic B&K game I go for the first Y&L game, its not really Notstalgia its the game we miss, like the first 2 paper mario vs what came after.....I don't really know where I'm going with this but what I'm saying if a game works stop changing it sorry I just miss the first 2 paper mario's and the OG Banjo & Kazzoie!! [I know the first paper mario is on the switch] please remember this is just my personal random rant

[@bigchungus7870]

This argument is in the same boat as Pokémon clone or killer

[@SuperDwango]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Reinventing the wheel is difficult and often just unnecessary.

[@GymLeaderEd]

that's a good point too, like if you want to make something different because you have a cool idea that's one thing, but making something different JUST to be different is silly imo

[@riotkitty]

Hm…Honestly nostalgia is all subjective, people have all their own bias. For all Pokémon remakes aside from ORAS, I had no nostalgia, nothing good or bad. Even with ORAS where I remember playing the originals, I don’t think I bought it just because it was a remake, it was because it looked cool and something that would be fun. Maybe I’m immune to nostalgia or something but…I will give this video one thing. Nostalgia does warp the way we see things. Something might not be as good as we remember them or if this nostalgia is damaged that can also warp perception over similar looking games. I saw way too many people who absolutely lost it over SWSH and jumped over to TemTem expecting that game to fix everything they hated and be exactly like Pokémon but better due to everyone throwing the two games against each other. However once it was revealed it wasn’t, the playerbase really fell off a cliff in comparison to the hype.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

I don't recall anyone saying they'd be jumping to TemTem for that reason and the playerbase is still active. I, for one, was playing YKW3 long before the SWSH issue. It just became a good example of how absurd the excuses of SWSH are, considering how YKW3 kept all past monsters in one game with free DLC and YKW4 actually being fair to forgive for not having all past Yo-Kai given that game was built from scratch and has way less money to work with not to mention part of the issue with SWSH was that we were told we would be getting game balance and better animation quality, which we did not get as the animations are just as awful and the game is as much a broken, unbalanced mess as any other Pokemon game. Funnily, one person actually made me aware of the fact you can get a Nasty Plot Fire Blast Ninetales before the first Gym in SWSH without ANY of the DLC, so the lack of balance casually and competitively speaks for itself how dishonest they were. With how actively I see you try to make excuses for Pokemon, I highly doubt you're immune to nostalgia.

[@riotkitty]

@@DrCoeloCephalo huh, for some reason KZbin keeps removing my comment. So here goes nothing again. I never mentioned Yokai Watch but okay I guess. I’ll disagree with Ed on the Pokémon fanbase being a big factor in that regard, as Level 5 as a company moved out of the West in general, not just Yokai Watch, due to decreasing sales for all titles. Still it is truly sad about that, I did like quite a few of their games and more people should’ve given Yokai Watch a chance in the Pokémon fanbase. And I never said that the TemTem playerbase wasn’t active, just that in comparison to the launch playerbase it is much smaller. And just search “Pokémon TemTem” and you’ll find a whole array of content creators who did just that, jumping over to TemTem because they hated SWSH, dropping it after a few days. Hoodlum Callum was one I distinctly remember doing so, even having a stream titled “F Pokemon, TemTem is my New Best Friend.” I wasn’t really making a statement about SWSH but okay then. All I really do is correct false information and misinformation about things. That includes SWSH, as well as Yokai Watch when needed. And your reply doesn’t really change my argument. Nostalgia is all subjective, and people all have their own bias that warp their perception of things. Including you, by the way. You are definitely extremely biased towards SWSH and Yokai Watch for different reasons, so thanks for supporting my argument. PS: I know which Ninetales you are talking about, and you can’t actually catch it in the Wild Area before the first gym, same with all of the other strong Pokémon wandering around. Just correcting some misinformation you were told, that’s all.

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

@@riotkitty It doesn't matter if you yourself mention Yo-Kai Watch. I am allowed to use it as an example when it justifies my points. Lack of Level-5 game sales really doesn't add anything to my point how YKW3 is hands down a better game. That video title kinda sounds like a famous meme. You know, a joke. Why are you taking what is an obvious joke so seriously? Cuz there's certainly no rule saying you can't play and praise other monster collectors and still play amd criticize Pokemon. I do that plenty and no one can do a thing to stop me. It's really not a matter of bias when you bring facts to the table because facts are not biased. Yo-Kai Watch 3 having free DLC, a following feature for free, a huge monster count, a better balanced competitive meta, higher quality animation, etc. would all remain completely true completely regardless if you were biased against Yo-Kai Watch and hated it so it really does not prove anything on your end. Vulpix can be encountered on Galar Route 3 and you can get a Fire Stone in the wild area underneath the bridge. So as I said, you can easily get a Ninetales before the very first Gym which is Grass. It really does not seem at all like you knew what I was talking about. Maybe you should confirm your own "misinformation", hmm? Funny I'm so """biased""" against SWSH yet I can so easily confirm those objective facts.

[@zachariahm.kemper7406]

He's talks about games he's either never played or only has a surface level knowledge sometimes, I stopped watching his channel a bit ago

[@corinawhite6457]

don't know what you call the moster game that getting this year is but I am looking forward for mosters menu the scavenger cookbook game but in saying this I like and love playing some to most mosters games but can still a bit picky on them but have look at before fully getting into them because when ever see a new mosters farming games and mosters tameing if see a utubers clips and see if I like and love what they showing me then I will see if I like or love it before I go yup that my kind of games to get and playing pearl and diamond when miss out makes up for it for me and that why I love ooblets to it was fun for me and hopefully they will make more of this Pokemon like games for me o kind of fun but what he does not bring up as one point I will not all Pokemon games are the same and sucks we all loseing some of Pokemon like games not coming out to the west but even saying that to as long as got something new like ooblets vs Pokemon vs digmon vs tem tem sweet as but not to sure if we all get anything New and not only new but a physical copy of the game to come to the west to that why I am glad I did find you gym leader Ed and hopefully you will like my point I have on the video but would like to add one more thing hopefully they will make more of moster farming games love growing my moster up that kind of cool and fun and and hopefully they will make more of something like ooblets useing card battles system it was fun thing they add buy hopefully who ever dose it again like it make a bit more harder bit more but apart from that ooblets was fun game to me but love to see what they come up with all this year on moster tameing games and mosters farming games for 2023 and hopefully beyond this year 🤗🤩😍🤪😜😎🤔ps keep up your great work on your video's

[@armyofninjas9055]

Nostalgia holds ALL gaming back. It's 2022. Why are 99.9% of indie games pixel art?

[@Ar0474]

It's not about nostalgia, pixel art to a lot of us is just genuinely a nice art style. I'd take an indie pixel art game over a "next-gen" title anyday!

[@PapaDalbec]

Although convincing, It’s actually the opposite.

[@GymLeaderEd]

Opposite which way? Of what I said or what he said? Haha

[@PapaDalbec]

@@GymLeaderEd Of what he said, and your retort to his video was spot on. I mean, he even tried to take a dump on coromon.

[@GymLeaderEd]

@@PapaDalbec hahahaha thanks I don't think he tried to dump on I think he just has a different outlook on what he's looking for in a mongame

[@hornedcrusader9485]

My problem with these monster taming games is that look like Pokémon but with a slightly different coat of paint. They just seem like they're hyper fixated on replicating the style of Pokémon, but not the substance.

[@sonic-bb]

Judging from the title and first point made by the original video, I agree and disagree. Monster taming games are great and always have been. It's not nostalgia enhancing how great they were. I think people forget about what other games existed at the time. And what pokemon and Digimon brought that most other games didn't. For the time, it was amazing. And modern games creating in pixel style, I wouldn't say holds the genre back. Pixel art is better than its ever been. And for time and development reasons, it's just easier to create over 100-200 monsters in pixel form than a full 3D model. It's also easier to create the illusion of a large scale and beautiful world when the pixel art allows the players imagination to fill in the blanks. Also can we stop spreading this lie that pokemons monsters were taken from dragon quest

[@denysvision]

we all know that megami tensei made that genre

[@sonic-bb]

@@denysvision apparently not tho

[@jessegartung294]

Nostiis holding films back. And it’s part of the reason why I dislike Temtem. They claim they’re catering to fans. But fail to advance they make your jerk rival Max so unlikeable they tried to rewrite him to be more likeable but fail. And I like coromon and Nexomon and I’m excited for other Mon games like grimmlins

[@laylaalder2251]

I actually think he's right about how they're held back by being too close to pokemon. He's 100% about the problems with identity - when I see TemTem for example, I don't think of TemTem. I think "it's totally like pokemon you guys!" And if I'm being honest... I think your arguments here are far too much in the "defensive fan" angle.

[@GymLeaderEd]

I don't feel like I'm being an overly defensive fan, I actually think that there's something to be said about staying too close to the formula without innovating, but I think the issue is a lot of people don't actually play the games and come to these conclusions. Not Adams video, I think we just disagree on the idea that these games do or do not build on nostalgia. I'm sure my takes are biased in some part, just like his and just like yours, thats why ultimately there's never going to be a consensus on this topic, but at the very least I wanted to try to give insight on why the monster taming genre has a bit of a unique situation in relation to pokemon

[@psyhki2005]

I wouldn’t call it an identity problem, it’s just the fact both Pokémon and games like Temtem, Coromon and Nexomon all share the same genre, so from a surface level they all look and play similar kind of like COD, CS:GO and Battlefield (although you never see anyone labelling FPS games COD clones). And as Ed stated, each of these games also bring a twist or addition to the genre: Temtem with its MMO-lite aspects + its battle-system, Coromon and it’s shiny / iv system and Nexomon with its focus on story so I feel like the thought of “it’s totally like Pokémon you guys” is a bit shallow.

[@ookamithefangjoker]

Whoever says nostalgia is holding back games is either delusional, a liar, or stupid. If nostalgia is holding back monster taming, then explain to me why we're still getting new titles? Sure Pokemon, Digimon, DQ opened the way to monster taming, but it's not like we have to be limited to their mechanics.

[@kitkat7074]

Nitpicky as always

[@Leondragon06]

Kinda around 7:37 ya talk about knock offs while the games in question in this video are not knock offs ya do still seem to like to cover actual knock off some as recently ya covered Xenoverse. I was curious what was as heard no news of it then found it just some knock off BS. It is your YT channel but would be nice if ya only covered legit games not knock offs or the very least put (knock off/not legit) next to a game that is such when covered as a compromise if ya still going to cover them. Maybe it is not the nostalgia of Pokemon fans that holds them back from being unwilling to try the games in the subject of this video but their horrible graphics for the recent years they came out(Nexomon and Tettem aside as they actually look good it is Monster Crown and Coromon that look like they do not belong in these recent yrs but as said in video nostalgia of GB or GBA thus they hold themselves back by being made in recent yrs instead of around time period of what they look like) as it actually?

[@rafalb692]

Xenoverse is a fangame not a knock off

[@Luis-gz3oo]

Feels pretty biased imo

[@PeterParker-ff7ub]

No people make games not nostalga.