Is it "SHE and I" or "ME and HER"? Don't make 'Fake Grammar' mistakes

[@tbessie]

I'm a native English speaker in the US, and I sometimes like to use excruciatingly correct grammar with people in casual situations just to annoy them (eg "It was I who spoke first" or "To whom did you give the book?" etc). And for some strange reason, it DOES seem to bother some people to an unreasonable degree.

[@qzrnuiqntp]

🤣 The way you preserve your englishitude is luscious.

[@samithadhananjana1880]

I sincerely like to bring your attention to the paradoxical fact that you can't be a native English speaker while being an American.😅

[@kakocrat5580]

Isn't it the case that US English tends to use "whom" more than British English?

[@perrybarton]

@@kakocrat5580 Not in my experience as someone who's lived his entire life in the States, but there are certainly people who incorrectly use it to refer to a subject rather than an object, because they think "whom" sounds more sophisticated than "who."

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

That's pretty funny!

[@christianedoeur9394]

Hi Gideon, I always love your podcasts. I agree with you MOSTLY today - I agree with your explanations on the subleties of I/me, depending on the context. BUT I would always place the other person first, and then my own person, i.e., Jane and I / Jane and me, not the other way around..... in any language..... I was taught this is the polite way, and this is how I teach my students (English, German and French) - I am 74 years old now, but I'd rather stick to it! Continue your fabulous work!😊

[@dannazth]

Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate your effort. You are my favourite English teacher ☺️

[@LetThemTalkTV]

My favourite student

[@pravoslavn]

Highly esteem your presentations, Sir Gideon ! Like you, I am a philologist (albeit, armchair versions.) As an East Coast American, I am shamed and embarrassed by the sloppy, uncritical, unreflective diction used in this place today, and have spent the best part of my seventy-some years attempting to correct the bad language habits imbibed in my youth. Studying Latin, Greek, Hebrew, German, French and now Russian and Old Slavonic has helped me immeasurably with grammar and syntax. So your videos are among my favorites. Teach me to speak in RP, Sir, and I shall forever be in your debt. Sprach und Geschichte... es gibt nicht mehr.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

That's very kind of you to say. I'm happy to teach RP with just a hint of a London accent.

[@annaconzelmann6422]

With all due respect: I've got more confused than I've ever been

[@matthewprovencio6020]

I too

[@MichielHollanders]

Your videos are always highly informative and entertaining! Many thanks and cheers from Greece

[@LetThemTalkTV]

Glad you like them.

[@isabelatence7035]

I see native English teachers living in Brazil speaking Portuguese who make mistakes with pronouns, they are so natural that they have a certain charm, I will agree with you, it is important to keep speaking and studying, thanks Gideon, A very clear video🤩

[@LetThemTalkTV]

Glad you liked it.

[@isabelatence7035]

@@LetThemTalkTV 🥰

[@markedis5902]

In my opinion both are correct. It depends on the context. I would speak very differently if I was with close friends compared to an interview or a court appearance.

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

Exactly. Well said

[@martapolizzottomp]

Keep on watching your videos is such a good way to improve our English!!Thank you Gideon!! 😃👏🏻👏🏻😃

[@TinLeadHammer]

Do you mean, "keepING ... is a way"?

[@giuliacleti5950]

Dear Gideon, I was so sure about myself and about "you and I". Perhaps too much. Thank you, because any doubt gives me more chance to learn.

[@joriskbos1115]

But with the "it is I" example, the verb to be is conjugated to the third person, so you would expect "it" to be the subject, so in that case the more "formal" version should not even be considered correct by prescriptivists if they were to be consistent

[@TaiFerret]

The verb to be is a copular verb, which takes a subject and a complement which are both in the nominative case. This rule only applies to the formal register though and may just have been a borrowing from Latin.

[@qzrnuiqntp]

Me, myself and I enjoy your videos, Sir.

[@БогданКостюченко-ц4о]

Thank you for this enlightening video, Gideon!

[@nHans]

Gideon: "Doesn't option B sound more natural than option A?" Me: "No, nothing about English sounds natural to ESL/EFL learners. We learn what you English teachers teach us. And then we adapt it to what the native English speakers are actually saying in real life, outside of classrooms."

[@RicoLee27]

With all answers as a non native speaker I did get the "natural" sounding ones by geuss

[@markedis5902]

3:40 I’m glad you qualified that ‘almost’ everybody would pick ‘b’. Personally I quite like to announce myself by saying “It is I!” and staring into the distance melodramatically. It adds a nice bit of drama into an otherwise dull day. Normally my answer would be “who do you think?”

[@Ironfist85hu1]

"It is I!" The total opposite of this would be "It'sa me, Mario!"

[@djo-dji6018]

I prefer to keep my dull days dull. But that's just I.

[@revoakes8984]

aaand, that should technically be "whoM do you think?"

[@alestev24]

The hypercorrection you speak of (😉) drives me crazy, as English is not my first language, but something I learned in school as a native German speaker. We were absolutely drilled in using object and subject pronouns correctly, which I guess comes easily to native German speakers anyway. But there always was the caveat, that it is sometimes "correct" to use the object pronouns in everyday language. However, in the past ten years or so, I encounter more and more native English speakers, who seem to try very hard to show how "sophisticated" they are by constantly using subject pronouns, when object pronouns would be correct. Most of the English I hear is in sports commentary, most often golf, and I constantly hear sentences like: "There are branches between he and the hole" or "We had the opportunity to talk to he and his wife yesterday" or: "It is always interesting to hear the conversations between he and his caddy." I always wonder, how people can think that this is correct. I suppose I am so sensitive about it, because there are a lot of similar examples in German. People who try to "avoid" making mistakes, which are commonly made by less educated people or who try to use the "more sophisticated" expression, and by doing so, get their grammar completely wrong. "Wie" and "als" ("as" and "than") are prime examples in German or "hinten" and "rückwärts" ("back" and "backwards"). "Bitte auch rückwärts einsteigen" is something you can hear all the time in German or Austrian railway and subway stations, when they try to get people to use the back doors as well. What they are actually saying is "Please enter backwards". But the correct "hinten einsteigen" is obvioulsy too "primitive" for these people, because "Hintern" is the word for the part of your body on which you sit. 😁

[@barneylaurance1865]

Native English speaker here, your examples with "he" definitely sound ungrammatical to my intuition, but I suppose I would get used to them if I was watching an hour of golf or something and the commentator used them consistently.

[@mickramsay5002]

Gideon Okay Gideon, I totally agree with you. I do speak a few languages and I have rarely used a grammarbook. I pick up languages through listening, reading, writing and using what I know. The best situation for me was always a certain period of residence in the particular country from which I wanted to learn the language. I always experiended a great deal of appreciation as a foreigner when I tried hard to communicate. Correct grammar never was the question.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

You sound like a wise person indeed.

[@garierbos]

Yes, I agree with you even before I have started learning any language because I can speak today Engish, Spanish, French and Portuguese. The last one is my native language and I learned it before learned Portuguese language which I'm still learning now in my 73 years of living and learning. But if one is studying to be a professional in something that requieres formal language you should learn the rules of the formal register required.

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

Thanks for this video! We aren't grammar books,and our day-to-day speech doesn't have to strictly adhere to rules of grammar.

[@manjirabanerjee7169]

Crikey !! Never did that occur to me on reading The Merchant of Venice -- that 'you and I ' thing. Thanks Sir G.

[@gordonhaz8217]

Could I ask you to do a video on the increasing use of "likely" in cases where "probably" should properly be used?

[@jepomer]

If I am writing or speaking in a more formal setting, I would use the "I" form, not "me". Back in 1968 I was writing to my exchange host family in Germany. In one sentence I was trying to translate the "it's me" informal form directly into what I thought would be informal German. But I was a bit perplexed. Should I use "mir" or "mich"? The correct answer of course was "ich". After a couple of months there, the conversation revolved around the English (American?) use of "me and him went to the movie." My host father said, that is why I had used "mir". Fortunately, my host mother spoke no English. I truly enjoyed my time when we talked together. One particular day we were talking about what to say for confession - both being Catholic. Trying to think of "sins", she used the word in German for a lie. To best explain it, she pointed to their dog's tail. Interesting how the German and English words had that same second meaning.

[@ronald3836]

"It's me" would be "Ich bin es" in German (and "Ik ben het" in Dutch, but "c'est moi" in French).

[@vovk764]

Thanks for this lesson. I might though try to rationalize a couple of strict rules: (1) After prepositions, one always uses me, him, etc. instead of I, he, etc.; (2) Wheras the object normally takes the form I, he, etc., the subject takes me, him. Am I right?

[@SpiritmanProductions]

"Jane and I" v "I and Jane" is not a grammar rule, only a matter of manners. It is usually more polite to list yourself last.

[@christianedoeur9394]

@bacca - not necessarily, language changes/evolves. What seemed to be correct in Shakespearean times is not necessarily so today.

[@stefienardelli6388]

hi Gideon… i love your videos - your channel is one of my favs. why do you say some rules are fake (old person here…)? what makes a rule valid/genuine? who‘s in charge😂? i’m a native english speaker, currently learning german, so you can imagine…ich, mich, mir, ihn, ihr, ihm etc…

[@LetThemTalkTV]

I teach English grammar every day. There are lots of rules, hundreds of them. Then there are the "fake rules" such as the "split infinitive rule". Great writers have been using split infinitives for centuries. Abraham Lincoln, Henry James, Benjamin Franklin to name a few. It's not a rule, it's never been a rule. It doesn't exist. Don't believe me then ask Steven Pinker or Oliver Kamm and many others.

[@barneylaurance1865]

A true rule is a description of how people within some group that you're interested in speak / listen / read / write that's accurate enough to be useful. You can check whether the rule is accurate enough by making observations of speech and/or writing to check whether the rule is true. An example of a true rule is "Present tense verbs must be inflected to agree with the number of the subject - we add 's' to the verb when the subject is singular". A fake rule is something that typically was made up and written in a grammar book, but isn't a true rule. One of the most famous is "Sentences may not end with prepositions". Another fake rule is "less can only be used to compare non-countable quantities". Apparently English grammar books were very popular in the 1800s, and a lot of them were published with fake rules. Many of those rules have been repeated ever since. Another linguist you can ask if you don't believe Gideon is David Crystal. I'd highly recommend Crystal's book "Stories of English".

[@stefienardelli6388]

@@barneylaurance1865 thanks for your input. didn’t mean to imply disbelief, just like to know where things come from, especially since several of those fake rules were taught to me as gospel….

[@kennethflorek8532]

@@stefienardelli6388 "Who's in charge?" The presumptions have changed over the ages, going back at least to the ancient rhetoricians of Rome. Until maybe 200 years ago, Latin was accepted as the ultimate of languages, and bringing English up to that standard was a lofty goal. Therefor improved English was to be Latinized. Some of these originally "fake" rules for good English, but standard Latin, have become accepted English practice by this elevation project. Some commonplaces in English will result in strained constructs if Latinized. Prepositions don't happen at the end of a sentence in Latin, so I am told, because what is a preposition in English is a form of a word in Latin. But "going to" at the end of a sentence works in English. So why make up this rule? People today are not even interested in Latin.

[@stefienardelli6388]

@@kennethflorek8532 very interesting, and i did take 2 yrs Latin in high school (loved it). when i (tongue in cheek) said who‘s in charge, i was just hoping for an answer to the question - where are the rules to be found? if it’s just a matter of what’s being used, then i guess there are no definitive rules at all…

[@rogerkearns8094]

Why do people (usually management types) sometimes say 'myself' in stead of 'me', for example, 'When you have finished the report, please send it to myself.'?

[@olgablang3725]

Thanks a lot for your video lessons Gideon. Always pleasure and fun to watch you. BTW where did you get this t-shirt? I’d like to have one like this as well!

[@LetThemTalkTV]

you can get the t-shirt from our merch store

[@barneylaurance1865]

The "minority opinion" that "'between you and I' is also correct" that Gideon mentions at 09:28 might be a minority opinion, but it's a correct opinion, isn't it? If I remember rightly it's the opinion given in the Cambridge Grammar of The English Language by Huddleston and Pullum. Is there a different grammar that has better opinion based on stronger evidence or better reasoning?

[@LetThemTalkTV]

It might well be correct, I reserve judgement but can you explain how? You say "between them", "between us." " the table is between me and the wall" not "I" so how is "between you and I" correct? I can't get me head around it.

[@chongtak]

The problem with calling rules fake rules is at the end of the day, we have a language with no rule and it's even harder to learn and master. "Teacher, why???" "Shut-up, and learn it like that!"

[@LetThemTalkTV]

There are thousands of legit rules. I know, I teach them every day but please spare us the fake ones.

[@adscri]

@@LetThemTalkTVThe rules of English are like the shifting sands- always have been, ain’t it so?

[@lucagiuberti682]

Hey. Where can I get that grand T-shirt you're wearing?

[@ЕвгенийЛузгин-ы6ж]

Thanks a lot. Can you spare a couple of minutes an tell me what you think of usage of PV in active construcnions like " since you ve been gone",What is it?Thank you.

[@DitDede]

I thought in a sentence such as "it is x" the subject was "it" and "x" was a (direct) object, hence I would say "it is me". Good to know it is more complicated...

[@Manigo1743]

It is not more complicated. "it" IS the subject and "x" IS the object.

[@DitDede]

@@Manigo1743 Thank you. In that case I don't understand why one would say "it is I" instead of "it is me".

[@antoniomartinazzo5847]

Thank you so much. I am Italian and I found this fascinating. In my native language the way we use pronouns is thankfully more clear-cut 😅

[@cavesalamander6308]

Thank you for the video. Your last sentence led me to a question: what do you think about pressure of millions of strangers on English (as virtual "Esperanto")?

[@nHans]

Question 1 is a trick question, isn't it? The correct answer is _"... will be arriving at _*_18:00_**_ hours,"_* not _"... 6pm."_

[@andrewrobinson2565]

I retire on 1st January 2024, having been an ESL teacher for the last twenty years. My New Year's resolution will be to stop correcting anyone anymore 😂🎉.

[@EM-qx3hx]

Hello Gideon, and thanks for your videos, I enjoy your style and the endless nuances of the English language very much! If you have the time, could you please let me know your opinion in this matter: more and more people lately start answering any question with the word “so”. It is being used as a sort of springboard to launch the answer, or a crutch to support it. Even people who should master the English language, such as journalists and writers, begin answering with “so” unnecessarily. Is it an annoying fad that will hopefully go away soon, or will it be incorporated into the language so that we will all have to say “so” every time before we begin an actual sentence? Thank you, and be well!

[@iainmc9859]

Back in the day, a long time ago in a place far far away, I was taught it was merely polite to put the other person first in the sentence, rather than it being a grammatical absolute; eg - she and I, John and I or John and myself. It sorts of dodges the usage of 'me', whereas 'Me and my mates' would be informally acceptable. I'm not sure if register is exactly the same as context in this situation. For me ( or should that be I ?) it would also depend if it was spoken or written.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

you can always resolve the politeness issue by switching the order to "my mates and me"

[@iainmc9859]

@@LetThemTalkTV 😄

[@janepage3608]

I’m native English, living in Portugal where it is incorrect to use the Jane and I format. I always comes first. The nice thing about rules is that there’s always someone for whom your right is wrong and vice versa. No rules, only guidelines!

[@fluxus6263]

@@janepage3608 How's that?! I think that you are little bit confused ..

[@lupus.andron.exhaustus]

In German there's the saying "Nur der Esel nennt sich selbst zuerst!". Which is meant as a reminder that it is regarded as impolite when you put yourself first in a sentence when another person is involved as well. So, in German it will be much more polite to say "Sie und ich" instead of "Ich und sie", although both sentences are correct. Is there some similar unwritten rule in English?

[@janepage3608]

At school - a long time ago - my teacher said you can tell which is correct by substituting ‘we’ for I, or ‘us’ for me. I write historical novels and it’s a really handy way of checking because, as you say, we’ve got used to the incorrect and now it often sounds better.

[@barneylaurance1865]

It's not a fool proof way of checking though - I think Gideon gave examples in the video where this test doesn't work.

[@genevievebouyoux1756]

Finally I found the answer to my questions thank you ! And if Shakespeare made mistakes also, what a release !

[@LetThemTalkTV]

@genevievebouyoux1756 Glad to be of service. I have the answer to many more questions that you haven't even thought of asking yet.

[@zzebowa]

In French, Jane et moi arriverons à 20 heures. In Dutch, Jane en ik arriveren om 20.00 uur. Both are correct, it depends if you use the Germanic or French root of our language.

[@ronald3836]

Ha, "Jane et je" in French would be as funny (and horribly wrong) as "Jane en mij" in Dutch!

[@Kabul-ITELI]

Which music is being used in the background?

[@bobbytables464]

It's always seemed to me that there's two ways to view "A and B will do X". One is that you are listing two independent subjects that are acting on the same object. In that case, you use the subjective personal pronouns, "He and I will go home". The other is that "me and him" is a semantic grouping that acts as a single subject in the sentence "me and him will go home". It's natural because when speaking off the cuff it's easy to present the subject before you've even thought of the verb or object. It's also why the latter is order-independent - "him and me" is just as right as "me and him".

[@thebigpicture-elpanorama]

After watching this video, me thinks that I have been well informed!

[@wildebeest773]

Is this correct: "It is I." ? I can understand if one goes on to say "..., who does, did or have dnoe so and so....". But "It is I." one its own? Though I've heard it many a time before, I am not convinced that it is correct.

[@djo-dji6018]

'It is I' is rarely used and sounds almost incorrect. 'It is I who did that', already sounds better. Grammar is not only about objective correctness but also about perceived correctness according to each different linguistic register - formal, familiar, informal...

[@murattanyel1029]

Yes, that hypercorrection phenomenon has gone too far. A few months ago, one of my students asked me, "Dr. Tanyel, were you there for [Joe] and I's presentation?"

[@MichielHollanders]

'It is I, Leclerc'

[@scotthullinger4684]

"She and I" is used in the subjective case. "Me and her" is used in the objective case. Examples - "She and I have a surprise for you." "Give that thing to me and her, and then please leave the room."

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

Me and my friend are English speakers,and we all know that saying "she and I" in everyday speech sounds weird. Me and her would never say that.

[@scotthullinger4684]

@@anpleidhceeireannach9498 - Yeah, saying "she and I" in the subjunctive case sounds a bit weird, but is actually CORRECT English. And by the way,saying "me and my friends" is incorrect. Here it should be "My friend and I." You would properly say "me and my friend" in a case like the following ... Give that case of beer to "me and my friend." (Not to my friend and I.)

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

@scotthullinger4684 It's not correct if most everyday situations, and you'll probably be ridiculed for speaking that way. If speaking a certain way is likely to get one mocked,it's hardly accurate to call that the correct way. Me and my friends agree. Nobody speaks like that,you'd be called posh and laughed out of the pub for speaking like that.

[@FuelFire]

I always say "[person] and I ..." instinctively because I'm a native german speaker and that's how it works in german.

[@flaviangsm2]

" GOW Ares : It was I who saved you in your time of greatest need ". I'm not native but I deal with people that are natives and some who are not but can confirm few things: KZbinrs from their daily job doing video and recording stuffs speaks english more then enough to be understandable by anyone which in real life when dealing with others you'll find the lack of pronunciation, many I founded on UK surprisingly and after few weeks of speaking with them, at some point there will be an accommodation somehow mechanical that makes you understand the sentences automatically. Still like this channel :)

[@matarey-u8k]

To resolve this conflict, it would be necessary to introduce disjunctive (a.k.a. tonic or stressed) pronouns into English just like "moi", "toi", ... in French.

[@reliya9023]

That's exactly what I thought! I'm convinced the pronouns used in these examples aren't object pronouns at all but disjunctive pronouns that just happen to look exactly the same as the object pronouns (as it happens pretty often in language evolution)

[@matarey-u8k]

@@reliya9023 In fact, the reflexive a.k.a. intensive pronouns (myself, yourself, etc.) are disjunctive ones. In English, they are more commonly used for emphasis rather than in their reflexive sense owing to the absence of reflexive verbs.

[@andrewbrix9013]

Well said, user- xe !

[@brunozaccardi8729]

Totally agree. Fancy people do not have anything better to do than checking your grammar... Have a great day.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

Thanks, yes I get a lot of that.

[@stanislavzaloznyi5737]

I honestly don't know what I like more - your awesome lessons or your wristband🙄☺

[@rvdb8876]

I know comparing languages is tricky, but in Dutch we will never use "Jij en mij" (You and me), it is always "Jij en ik" (You and I).

[@corcoos]

I tucking knew it. "You and I" always rubbed me the wrong way, and now it's ubiquitous even in literature. This push for hyper correct language is also plaguing my native language, Romanian.

[@enteryournamehere1]

“Vorbesc ca virgulă constructor calificat…”

[@danielking2944]

When I was learning Spanish as an adult,it was very confusing when a native speaker used improper grammar. The beauty of that language is the rigid verb conjugation with the number and person integrated in that conjugated verb. I think it is cruel to speak English incorrectly with a person learning it as a second language.They likely have invested a lot of effort in learning the convoluted English grammar rules only to have them put in question by hearing someone violate them. I often tell the learner to not worry about speaking English correctly because no one else does either.After all,English is what Germans speak when they’re too drunk to make sense .

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

It's not cruel at all to speak English "incorrectly" to a learner. You're exposing them to how the language is actually spoken,instead of the grammar books. Learners are always confused when they hear native speakers saying things that aren't in their grammar books. It's best to be honest with them and show them how the language is actually spoken,so as to improve their understanding of it. Lying to them or concealing how English is realistically spoken doesn't help them,because sooner or later they will have to face the reality of how Englis spoken.

[@pzappa9725]

Hello, Just to begin, English is my second language and I have a question: how incorrect it is to say: Jane and myself will arrive… ? Many thanks for your answer.

[@janepage3608]

Sounds absolutely fine and neatly sidesteps the whole me/I question.

[@barneylaurance1865]

I think of it as a bit of a hypercorrection but I've known native speakers who do that, and the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus lists it as a correct usage of "myself".

[@kingoftadpoles]

I remember encountering some of these arrangements when dabbling in helping someone to learn English.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

I hope you students succeeded.

[@Onlygloo]

Answering to your last question, I'd say yes, grammar nazies are a modern plague! Though nowadays it becomes so irritating to hear and read people butchering our beloved language (here I'm mostly referring to MY beloved French language but I assume many English speakers can relate too). Sometimes I can't stop myself from intervening and correcting something that's making my eyes or ears bleed (I hope some people won't feel the same.reading my prose...).

[@danielking2944]

If “you and I” or “you and me” are the answer to an implied “who?”,then it is a question of whether “who?”is a subject or object. I recently discovered that my daughter is a grammar nazi too so we always have something to talk about.

[@pongnose]

Couldn't agree more. There's a snobby attitude in English towards the vernacular, as though it were incorrect. There's always some wannabe pedant who corrects "less" to "fewer," or haitch to aitch and so on.

[@Manigo1743]

"less" and "fewer" should be corrected. You are uneducated if you don't know the difference. Similar to not knowing the difference between "then" and "than", which goes for almost all youtube commenters.

[@pongnose]

@@Manigo1743 No, less and fewer had always been - and still are - synonyms: the distinction is entirely artificial and unnecessary, introduced as a suggestion by an American essayist in the late 18th Century. People continue to use less for countable nouns, like they always had. - the difference being that pedants now correct them. I bet you rarely say "fewest" instead of "least" for countable nouns. It's just a shibboleth for wankers, nothing to do with being uneducated.

[@OceanChild75]

Hypercorrection is every grammar lover’s enemy number one!! A scourge (am I being dramatic? 🤔). Once as a kid I heard my French aunt saying "au cas zou" and she planted the doubt in my head, I wondered for years whether or not I was wrong to pronounce it differently so much so I avoided the expression for a long time! Then I have discovered she was a "victim" of hypercorrection. No one is to be spared!! 😱 Anyway back to point, I thought the rule was to use "I" when completing an action and "me" when the verb was "passive" for instance "my friends and I were fixing the roof" but "my dog and me were sunbathing". That being said, I could well have been following one of those fake rules 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@LetThemTalkTV]

That's an interesting "rule" though I must admit I've never heard it before. I would still argue that it's more a question of register. There is no one "right" answer. I hope your dog enjoyed its moment in the sun.

[@nocheinhamster]

I was taught that the use of me as a subject is caused by French influence, where je & moi can both me subjects depending on whether the pronoun is stressed. Is this a legit theory?

[@LetThemTalkTV]

It sounds plausible to me. In French you have "c'est moi" - "it's me". Nothing like that existed in Old English.

[@avaraportti1873]

Hypercorrects be like Billy and I's marriage

[@Escviitash]

Regarding "between you and I/me and the BBQ". As standard the subject goes before the object, so you could say that "you" is on the subject side of the comparison, and "the BBQ" is on the object side. In order to make it clear which side I am on, I would use "I" if I am on the subject side i.e. grouped with "you", and "me" if I am on the object side i.e. grouped with "the BBQ". I am well aware that they are technically all subjects, but as I see it, you sometimes need to break the grammar rules, for the sake of clarity.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

That's very interesting though it's difficult to get my head around even after your excellent explanation. Steven Pinker says "between you and I" is correct so there must be something in it.

[@Ironfist85hu1]

3:40 -Who's there? -It is I, Cato Sicarius, the Knight Champion of Macragge, and as such, no foul xeno could ever outmatch the legendary swordsmanship of I, Cato Sicarius, but if I, Cato Sicarius was you, wich I, Cato Sicarius, am not, as I, Cato Sicarius, am the most esteemed Cato Sicarius, I, Cato Sicarius, would personally use the noun I, Cato Sicarius. But tbh that sounds sooo incorrect, if there is no "am" after the "I, Cato Sicarius" :D

[@bass_rhino]

The problem is if you don’t use the grammar which some people consider correct, then those people will look down on you and think you are uneducated.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

The problems lies in the people who correct these fake mistakes. Don't let them intimidate you.

[@peterw29]

Social register: "Jane and I have been invited to a reception" versus "Me and Stace are going to a knees-up". But why only the two forms? What happened to "I and Jane" and "Stace and me"? I suspect these were eliminated from the language because, traditionally, people who cared about grammar also cared about courtesy and put Jane first, whereas people who didn't care about grammar didn't care about courtesy, and put themselves first. Which is okay 'cos Stace don't give a monkey's anyway.

[@alicerossi_ap]

I think that in the case of linking verbs like "to be", which don't show an action but rather describe the subject of the verb, having the verb followed by pronouns in the object form is correct and logical, instead 😊......the verb already has a subject and the pronoun that follows the verb performs a complementary function that adds more details to the subject itself. So, based on my reasoning, the sentence "It is I" would make no sense and would even be grammatically incorrect ☺️ Different matter for question tags with the auxiliary verb "to be" that are subject to another grammatical rule and have another linguistic function. That's just my point of view 🙂 Cheers, Gideon.

[@ronald3836]

To be does not take an object, so "it is I" is grammatically correct. However, "it is me" is now the accepted form in everyday English.

[@alicerossi_ap]

@@ronald3836 It's true, the verb "to be" can't take an object, but it can certainly take a complement (noun or adjective) that defines and describes its subject. What I meant to say, considering the subsidiary function of the complement, is that it might make more sense to use an object pronoun for this purpose rather than a subject pronoun without a predicate......and this may be why it's regularly accepted 😊

[@ronald3836]

@@alicerossi_ap the complement will not be an object, i.e. it won't be in the accusative case, but in the nominative case. So I, not me. In German, you say "Dieser Mann ist der Gründer der Firma." You don't say "den Gründer" (akkusativ). Or in English, you don't say "who is him?" or "whom is he?" This does not mean that "it is me" is wrong. It is strictly speaking ungrammatical, but it is accepted idiom.

[@emiliayilmaz1919]

Thank you

[@Middle-Road.Kim.K]

I do ask that my son say "[name] and I" when we're conversing to save me from chewing madly on an electrical cord as a diversion from the frustration. However, I also realize that the natural state of any language is to be in flux. Maybe English will someday evolve to include codified honorific verbiage, where "Jane and I" and "Me and Jane" both have a place in speech? 🤷‍♀️ My bugbear is lack of proper punctuation. Seems everyone's a fan of the run-on sentence lately; and when they're topped off with five exclamation points I reach for the cord again.

[@myouatt5987]

Loved the video, thought provoking as a native English speaker - though is this not also about use of demonstrative pronouns as a way to make a point or make something stand out ... just for the sake of it? I've seen most of your videos now - keep 'em coming! :)

[@bacca71]

Where I grew up (New England), it was considered extraordinarily rude to refer to yourself first in front of the other person. Always: "Annette and I walked into the woods." Never, ever: "I and Annette walked into the woods." or "Me and Annette walked into the woods" (if you make Annette vanish, you would have "Me walked into the woods." Ugh! I think 'English English' and 'American English' have a difference here. And as I watch a fair amount Brit TV shows, this explains why I was amazed at the bad grammar of obviously educated Brits on occasion. It was this exact usage of 'me' and 'I.' Like dragging fingernails down a blackboard. I'll be more understanding in the future, but will forgive The Bard anything.

[@ronald3836]

The other person goes first is the same in Dutch (or maybe it was just my mom, haha). I wonder if it really is different in the UK.

[@ronald3836]

In Dutch you can't start a letter with "I" (ik) either, but that is different at least in German.

[@bacca71]

@@ronald3836 The Dutch were quite dominant in eastern early America. I have roots back to New Amsterdam and have Knickerbocker ancestors. They were quite influential, and perhaps passed their manners on to their non-Dutch neighbors.

[@Tony32]

Great video 👍

[@Whizzer]

'It is I' is of course wrong. The verb is congruent with 'It', making it the subject, which means an object should follow. That's 'me', in this case. The correct use of 'I' reads as follow: I am it. That's how Dutch and German still do it, among many other languages. It's possible English was influenced by French here. Spanish and Italian don't do it this way.

[@djo-dji6018]

In Italian we say 'sono io', which literally translates into 'am I'. In Russian they say 'это я', which translates into 'this is I' - in Russian the pronoun 'me' cannot be used in this specific context.

[@ronald3836]

But "to be" does not take an object. "It is I" is grammatically correct, but nowadays this is the formal version.

[@AnnaAnna-uc2ff]

Thanks.

[@caraboska]

I really do say "It is I". And I even devoice my wh's in such sentences as "When will you be arriving?" And I am sitting here writing this in red-and-black plaid flannel trousers and a black long-sleeved T-shirt with a left breast pocket whose upper edge is trimmed with a strip of flannel matching my trousers. Do I look like an 18th-century dandy? I dare say I'm not quite _that_ old :P

[@LetThemTalkTV]

We need more Dandy's. Keep up the good work

[@bacca71]

If Shakespeare wrote it, that's the right way.

[@ronald3836]

It's-a-me, Mario!

[@lutravelstheworld]

😂Brilliant.

[@raychat2816]

Perhaps when the rozzers are asking questions, the one answering will say, : it was him who did whatever the crime was and not it was he, because he’s physically pointing out the individual, whereas if the individual wasn’t present he’d be more compelled to say : it was he, with the assumption that the subject had already been established, meaning coppers would actually understand what he meant by “he” and not “him”. However more likely it’s because he’s afraid the police isn’t even going to give him enough time to say an entire sentence, therefore saying it is him, already forms a complete statement, after which the talker would carry on telling his story with slightly less fear of being cut off than having said : it was HE who bla-bla-bla. Which one of those 2 reasons do you like more 😂😂

[@uffa00001]

There is only one correct grammar. Sometimes two forms can be correct. Never one form is correct when speaking formally and another is "grammatically" correct when speaking informally. Speaking informally dispenses you of some grammar rules just because it is informal, not formally correct. In the first example, the correct form is "Jane and I" or "I and Jane" and there is no way on earth one can use an accusative form (me) as the subject and claim he is correct. It could be good at the pub, not at University. "It's I" is probably the best form, but "It's me" is probably grammatically admissible because "it" is felt as the subject and "me" is felt as the object of the phrase. Impersonal verbs are very tricky grammatically and have different solutions in different languages. Italian: "sei tu?" "sì, sono io" (yes, it's I). The impersonal verb is not expressed in Italian, we don't have this impersonal "it", so we don't feel the urge to use the object form. In French, they have an impersonal Germanic "it": "C'est toi?" "Oui, c'est moi". That "ce" (c') is the equivalent of the Germanic impersonal "it", "es". IT's late, ES ist spät - in Italian IT's simply "è tardi". Because they use all those Germanic ITs, the French and some English feel grammatically correct to use the accusative (object) form for the personal pronoun. They don't say "c'est tu?" or "c'est je!". By this example we should feel that "it's me" it's a correct "Germanic impersonal it" construction, as the French use it. (Yes, French is a neo-Latin language but it has some Germanic traits). If feel "It's me" and "It's I" as both correct, but "It's me" IT is certainly not incorrect IMHO.

[@RayyMusik]

I find ‘Me and Jane‘ impolite - not because of ‘me‘ but because it is in the first place. It should be ‘Jane and me‘; in German this is the preferred usage.

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

English isn't German. An English speaker wouldn't really say that.

[@chong2389]

Colloquial English is the 'living' language of the common person. However, the use of colloquial English in a formal document does cast a shadow on the writer's educational background and lack of respect for the intended reader. I agree with @roxismit6122's assessment that putting oneself first is rude. Was it your intention not to append 'ly' on the use word 'correct' as an adverb at 00:40? The use of the adjective in place of the adverb form is becoming common. Otherwise, I enjoy your video offerings and sense of humour.

[@ronald3836]

My opinion: in "Can you get this question correct?", correct modifies the noun, so it is an adjective, not an adverb. But in "Can you answer this question correctly?", correctly modifies the verb.

[@barneylaurance1865]

It's true that you don't want to use colloquial English in a formal document - but that doesn't mean we should accept fake rules just because they're in some grammar book. It means we need to study the real rules of formal English, derived from (or checked by) studying a good sample of real formal English documents.

[@vanguaruja1]

what about "me and you/me and her = us" and "you and I/he = we?

[@frankhooper7871]

I would tend to use the object pronouns following "it is ...", but I'd absolutely never say "me and Jane are ..." And "between you and I" is mega cringe!

[@roxismith6122]

A is rude because you never put yourself first.

[@indigop38]

😅

[@nHans]

Ha! Trying to use logic on an illogical language to determine the "correct" grammar rules. Trust me, it's a fool's game. In mathematics and logic, it is well known that when you start with an inconsistent set of axioms, you can prove anything you want-including their opposites!

[@nHans]

In the US, they always say _"[X] and I,"_ never _"[X] and me,"_ regardless of whether the phrase is the subject or the object of a verb. Same with _"who/whom"_ - Americans always say _"who,"_ never _"whom."_ I like the American usage rather than the pedantic UK one for a couple of reasons: • *No ambiguity:* Whether you say _"... and I"_ or _"... and me,"_ the meaning is unambiguous to the listener. Same with _"who"_ v. _"whom."_ And therefore: • *Simplicity and consistency:* Having the same form really makes it easy to focus on content-what you want to say-rather than grammar-how you say it. Otherwise, you waste valuable moments of your creative process worrying about which form you should use. As for _"Jane and I"_ v. _"I and Jane"_ - I was taught that you always put yourself last, out of politeness. And for consistency. That's good enough for me. I can think of almost no situation where the two alternate phrasings mean different things. The only exception that I know of is if the other side of _"and"_ is very long. In that case, you put the _"I"_ first: _"I and a handful of my Saturday evening poker buddies ..."_ But again, that's just a matter of preference. Of course, as you pointed out, there are always hypercorrectors around who'll interject with *_"me*, not *I"_* or *_"whom,_*_ not _*_who."_* But such people are universally despised.

[@perrybarton]

@nHans "In the US, they always say 'X and I,' never 'X and me.'" No, we don't. There are few, if any, "alwayses" in US English. It depends on multiple factors, including when, and in what part of the States, one grew up. One theory is that people who say "they threw a party for Sally and I" (which I would never say) do so because they think that "I" sounds more sophisticated than "me." But then, I violate my own share of grammatical rules. Like beginning a sentence with "but." Or uttering a sentence fragment. 🤓 And language evolves (or devolves) over time.

[@anpleidhceeireannach9498]

No they don't. Me and him,me and her etc are overwhelmingly used in informal situations X and I sounds strange,unless you're making a speech or writing a formal text

[@Castilda0311]

“these kind”?

[@hafeezdembos5363]

How about: Myself, and Jane...

[@clwho4652]

The problem is some people think English makes sense, it doesn't, it is the bastard offspring of Anglish, Norman French, some Scandinavian, some Celtic, and has diverged into hundreds of accents that have effected each other. That is not counting the other non-english words that have entered the language and the slang that become common. English is chaotic. These people try and impose order on it and that only makes it more chaotic. For every rule in English, there are many exceptions, and accents change the rules. A double negative may make a positive in formal English but in many accents it add emphasis. Just let people talk.

[@ronald3836]

Teacher: "a double negative can make a positive, but a double positive can never make a negative" Student: "yeah, right".

[@barneylaurance1865]

English is a West Germanic Language. It has borrowed many words from Norman French, and a few from Celtic languages, but it's still very much Germanic at the core. You can easily avoid French vocabulary if you want to, but it's very hard to make any sentence without Germanic words.

[@clwho4652]

@@barneylaurance1865 I'd say its impossible, or near impossible. The majority of the prepositions we have are of Germanic origin. And, the, then, that, this, who, what where when, why, etc.

[@sergiyshklyar2573]

I do. I believe that every language has its internal logic. Multiple origins and pluricentricity make the language more complex. I am an English learner. Occasionally, I come across the rules or patterns that contradict to the rules I have already learned. I take it as I have to learn something new.

[@roshangupta4842]

I need an entire English Grammar book written by you. Mine is no longer useful ❤❤

[@LetThemTalkTV]

stay tuned!

[@myotherchannel2729]

In Dutch they don't say Het is mij, or Het is ik, but "Ik ben het" (I am it). :D

[@mosku66]

" ...... from now on, you and I are enemies..... "

[@nazin.s]

in my language we would say "we with Jane"

[@LetThemTalkTV]

which language?

[@lohphat]

C: Oy! It’smee, innit?

[@Chris-on3vc]

I am an English only speaker and as an older person I would say my wife and I will be coming or she who must be obeyed and I have been there before. But in conversation as a couple I would say you and me... and how high dear.

[@arthur_p_dent]

Dunno. "I and Jane" and "Me and Jane" both sound wrong. I would never mention myself first. It's not grammatically wrong, but it does sound impolite to my ears. But, ok. That's probably just me.

[@LetThemTalkTV]

so just say "Jane and me"