Is Joker Vs. Giorno Accurate? (DEATH BATTLE!)

[@worstwordmonger]

As a fan of Persona and Jojo, I do feel likt this is accurate. The fact Joker came back after being erased from reality I think says enough

[@WDinATX]

Yeah, this matchup was so clear cut it’s not even funny.

[@mmaaoorr]

Even if he can come back. GER just does it again. And again. Until the power of friendship ends

[@LumberSays]

@@mmaaoorrI mean, reset to zero would make it so the power of friendship never ends, so at most it’s a stalemate. Or, as much of a stalemate as constantly being reset can be

[@fantasiesarereal]

@@mmaaoorrGER cannot beat Joker.

[@Thatguyfromp5]

@@mmaaoorr sinfull shell can probably straight up kill giorno since it ignores all resistances/immunities

[@MimikyuDisciple]

To Put It Simply: Giorno Is A Reality Bender While Joker Is A Guy That Specializes In Dealing With Reality Benders.

[@hariman7727]

You have a dysfunctional relationship with your shift key.

[@The_Real_SmolOrTem]

​@@hariman7727 Yeah I Do Too Which Uh Sometimes i do this "Hello this Is a Normal sentence But I Spam Shift Alot"

[@ankara860]

I don't think y'all understand Revert to zero, it doesn't manipulate or alter reality, it negates it from happening in the first place, so Giorno would win

[@sharfsito2574]

@@ankara860 Yeah, it's causality manipulation, which is what Joker has resistance to...

[@MimikyuDisciple]

@@ankara860 Negating Reality Is A Form Of Manipulation Or Alteration. You Are Changing Reality So That It Never Happens. Plus Joker Got Completely Erased From Existence And Undid That Through Will Power Alone. Revert To Zero Wouldn't Do Shit To Him.

[@ModernAegis]

The better question is why Ren felt the need to infiltrate Giorno’s Palace. Alone, at that.

[@LinkJTO]

He heard Giorno had better drip and had to prove him wrong

[@brokenursa9986]

Giorno’s a mob boss with Fate-manipulating powers and an incredibly powerful spirit. That seems like the exact kind of person Joker would take on.

[@Aibadenshi]

Joker doesn't have to find Giorno Palace to fight him, Joker can just simply find Giorno Shadow in the Metaverse and then fight him there. It's how the side quest in Persona 5 works: you get a request and search for a person in the Metaverse to interact with them and change their heart. Or, in this case, kill. For him to fight Giorno alone however, he could be doing a solo run.

[@MinatotheGreenLantern]

@@LinkJTO Bro Joker cooks him in the drip department

[@zacharyfewins8087]

@@brokenursa9986 maybe, but Giorno is all around incredibly benevolent. That’s the entire point of him taking over the mafia. Not only would Joker have little reason to take him down if he thought about it for more than a second, it would also be an incredibly stupid thing to do. No matter how much one single person tries, there’s little chance of fully taking down the Italian mafia, and someone worse would probably make a grab at the leadership with Giorno gone. Best case scenario, Miata becomes leader and somehow manages to not be assassinated.

[@mechamanw668]

If the metaverse is about perception, if Giorno accelerated Joker's mind, wouldn't that, like, actually make him faster for real or am I trippin?

[@M4x_P0w3r]

Pretty much, yeah. It's kinda how the infiltration tools that Joker creates in his room only work in the metaverse because he thinks they will work but in real life it's just a bunch of useless junk. Because how are you gonna create what is essentially a grenade sized nuke out of silk yarn, iron sand and condensed lens?

[@Jade_Bunbun]

It's normally based on other people's cognition rather than their own, the reason the guns work so well is because of how real they look and how they look more and more dangerous as you get stronger ones, including guns and thief tools. They work not because joker would think they'd work but because they look like they would work to any other ordinary person, a good example is the door that's impossible to open in Madarame's palace, if it was based on the team's cognition/perception they probably could have just used a thief tool but they surmise there is nothing they can do except make real madarame lose faith in the security of the real door, which will then make the door able to opened

[@Finalslashes]

@@M4x_P0w3rthey literally go to an airgun shop for them

[@necr0danc3r29]

@@M4x_P0w3r It that because Joker thinks they will work that way, or the shadows around him perceive those tools as real? I thought it was the former since Joker knows all his stuff is fake.

[@powercore2000]

pretty much yeah. The same logic is how weapons work in the metaverse. The guns aren't real but the more real looking they are the more damage they do. Its also why healing items, etc function with such potency.

[@juzox5161]

The difference between a JRPG character versus an anime character is that JRPG characters typically fight some kind of god at the end of the game along with having encountered abilities that should not even be common place. I feel like any Shonen character would not stand a chance against someone like Cloud from Final Fantasy or Ness from earthbound.

[@Stryfe52]

It’s all fun and games powerscaling until you try to match the JRPG protagonist.

[@chadachi3970]

It doesn't help when in game mechanics start being used for powerscaling, like eating an apple to full heal and get full mana type goofy lol

[@totallynotinsane3327]

Not jrpg just games in general. Game characters are able to get away with doing op crazy stuff simply because it’s a game and the plot just goes on you have characters like sonic who casually restores his entire multiverse, dante fighting beings that transcend dimensions easily, kirby fighting deities and the list just goes on.

[@thegamerfe8751]

@@chadachi3970 Yeah, Persona characters survive purely off of being scaled from gameplay and scaling all of their stats based on bosses that they defeat despite no one knowing how they're actually defeated. For example, if we were to take the anime adaptations of the Persona games, there would be no BS mechanic or feat to scale them to and at best they'd all be building or city block level at best with peak human speed while in perfect condition at best.

[@chadachi3970]

@@thegamerfe8751 This is what I would be more in favor of, comparing animanga to animanga and games to games. If they wanted to do in game Joker vs something like Eyes of Heaven Giorno then I'd get it, because in that game even the early part Jojo character are somehow scaled to be relative to later part characters (which makes no sense, but it's game logic). Going by the anime alone, Joker's best feat is Sinful Shell and it isn't close, which is basically just Persona Spirit Bomb so it isn't something he can casually do at will unlike in gameplay. He wouldn't have access to DLC persona like Izanagi, which would place him much much lower than what people do tend to scale him as only Narukami has access to Myriad Truths (which unironically scales him higher than Joker lol). It's just unfair to compare animanga feats to in game mechanics lol

[@CottonArsonist]

Short answer: Yes Long Answer: The stat gap probably would have allowed Joker to just sprint at Giorno and for the Ryuji insta-kill ability to just win him the fight. If Giorno doesn't have GER immediately, then Joker is almost guaranteed a win given how wide the gap is.

[@FranTheNerd]

and even if you say he could get GER up, joker has a chance to just outright say "no" to it because he's bypassed higher tiers of reality manipulation

[@harisjaved994]

​@@FranTheNerd ger's ability is nullification of effect of attack aimed at him and is unaffected by fate, time and space. It's not like manipulating reality, DOH's ability fit into that description not ger.

[@FranTheNerd]

@@harisjaved994 So you're saying GER manipulates what is happening so that the effect doesn't happen....hm....if only there was something that could describe that.....almost like manipulating reality itself....

[@nobled1113]

@@FranTheNerdHonestly it’s weird to say higher tiers of hacks when we don’t know what Giorno’s tier actually is.

[@FranTheNerd]

@@nobled1113 we know it hasn't shown to be on par with the tiers joker has shown to surpass, and I don't personally buy no limits falacies because we haven't seen their limit. By that logic kirby solo's fiction because he hasn't been shown to be killed period

[@MopeyToapy]

I adore that this video just seems like You went to look into how it would go down and then went into a Rabit Hole about Persona5 and You just became so baffled and like "Y'all can get down like this in Persona? What the fuck?"

[@AliceIzuragi6291]

even crazier is death battle buffed joker. they researched the whole verse of shinigami tensei i think its called. which is a buff that joker did not need. persona lore was enough for him to win. hell, they even gave him the social links, which wernt needed

[@Alduinhead]

It's called Shin Megami Tensei* Have an excellent day : D

[@AliceIzuragi6291]

@@Alduinhead thanks. been awhile since i played a shin megami tensei game. so i ended forgetting the name

[@FREEDOMISMYNAME450]

@@AliceIzuragi6291the fact that they used shin Megumi To make him fu_______ HIGH OUTERVERSAL ARE YOU KIDDING ME I DID NOT KNOW YALL WERE LIKE THIS GODDAMN IT - wait before I get ahead of myself let’s fact check their in- NO THEY HAVE EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP NOOOOOOOO GIORNO BRO 😭😭

[@KarpSplash]

​​@@AliceIzuragi6291 they only used Shin Megami Tensie IF which is only part of the SMT series and is actually part of the Persona Cannon. They really only used it to get a better understanding of the Almighty attack though, the rest were just Persona stuff.

[@animefan77]

What fans were expecting Kaleb to say: correcting the “mistakes” of Joker defeating G.E.R What Kaleb said instead: no, I completely agree- Joker dodged 5th dimensional constructs and defeated reality warpers. How does G.E.R compete with that?!

[@psykodactyle]

GER says no.

[@M4x_P0w3r]

@@psykodactyle The wildcard's will says "lol, don't care, didn't ask"

[@kichiroumitsurugi4363]

@@psykodactyle Which doesn't work against anti-reality benders, which Joker IS

[@ultrainstinctgokuhope7442]

​@psykodactyle Joker have faced and be immune against that

[@raikasha8152]

@@psykodactyle I like Giorno too my guy, even more than Jokek, but he doesn't win this one.

[@Syrius_Li]

i just like the fact that Joker had to be in Italy for this fight to happen. Why would he be there, who knows but that’s where Giornos Palace would be

[@flex0ffendr]

My headcanon is that it was a class trip or a holiday with the thieves like in p5s

[@Aibadenshi]

The Metaverse apps that let the Persona 5 into the Metaverse can also work as a Maps. So all they need to do is just say their name or anything vaguely match.

[@jefferyoneill1]

​@@AibadenshiIt requires the name of the individual, and what said individual perceives their palace to be for the MetaNav to find it

[@Naru_kek]

I never even knew Joker's feats (thanks to fanboys never explaining it), but yeah it was stupidly unfair. GER basically only has ONE counter that gives him a stalemate most of the time and no other explanations or showcases EVER, while Joker has hundreds of different techniques/passives/skills/items that can basically nullify reality itself lmao In the end, ,e've got a very powerful, somewhat logical anime MC VS a broken video game MC that can literally bend his universe to his will. It's like making a Superman VS DIO or something. Sure, DIO could survive one way or another, but it's impossible for him to win due to how stupidly powerful Superman is.

[@samueltitone5683]

Joker has feats beyond Sinful Shell?

[@axillaryclinical]

Dude you never actually asked one for feat

[@Naru_kek]

@@axillaryclinical I did and quite a lot. All I ever got was stupid stuff like "he solos lol" or something like "he can do whatever wants". I never got an actual explanation of Joker's abilities or anything. Hell I didn't even know the existence of the Metaverse before that Death Battle ep lmao

[@8bitdiedie]

@@Naru_kekIt’s a bit hard to explain Joker’s powers in detail when there’s a 30+ game franchise (with mostly japan-only games) you need to explain first if you want to fully understand Joker’s lore and powers. Even Death Battle had to heavily simplify it or outright ignored much lore just so the video wasn’t too confusing.

[@axillaryclinical]

@@Naru_kek really

[@retr0karate]

Jonkler, Chad Narukami, and Door-Kun are just built different unfortunately

[@ivanjm2707]

And this is just the tip of the iceberg for SMT power scaling lmao

[@tomo8940]

And Megami Tensei as a whole. Joker wasn't the first pretty boy with a waifu and pet mascot.

[@halo3guy]

​@@tomo8940if they do a smt1 remake they def turning Pascal into a marketable plushie

[@Shitposting_IHMN]

"bees can kill a gorrila, so they can lift a rock" type logic going on here

[@BreezeOfOnett]

​@@halo3guy Man, I wish we got an SMT 1 and 2 remake

[@muchluck7981]

Explaining how Social links work to Jojo fans. Imagine every Jojo's connection with their cast. Johnathan with Zeppeli, Joseph with Caesar, Jotaro and the stardust crusaders, the list goes on. All of those connections that the main Jojo forms, these give your will and soul the power to stand in times of adversity. They cannot be severed because they are the connections you make with people. Even Dio of all people would have a social link as Part 1 is basically the story of Dio and Johnathan. You don't have to be in a positive relationship with that person to have a social link, only that you two talk and interact with each other in your daily lives. Social links starting from Persona 3 serve as fuel for your soul. They serve as mental and willpower increasers, always letting you know you are never alone in a fight. Persona 4 is the best example of this with the main character of that game being sent to literal hell to die forever only for the bonds he made helping to drag him out of that predicament and he doesn't have the will of rebellion like Joker does. They are fair game in death battle because the social links themselves are not pulling out tommy guns and firing at Giorno for Joker. They simply act as power increasers for any persona protagonist past 3

[@LordTyph]

As a reference, in Persona 3, 4, and 5 (the games that use the Social Link system), if you include the remakes and their added content, you have MULTIPLE social links with antagonists. Being enemies does not immediately preclude a Social Link. Johnathan would probably have a maxed out Social Link with Dio, for instance.

[@GreatNegus]

To be fair, bonds do have power in Jojo, just a different type. Familial bonds are shown to have supernatural effects (members of the Joestar family with the birthmark can sense each other and Trish is able to sense her father despite having never met him before). Although, a glorified GPS isn't much compared to what happens in Persona.

[@muchluck7981]

@@GreatNegus Thus why I still have to explain the power of persona bonds since it's not anything like bonds people normally think where it's potrayed as a group/supernatural thing like what you gave for Jojo and more tangible in terms of actual power boosts If you want the greatest example of the power of bonds. Yu Narukami, not a trickster, just a normal Wild Card who had to move to the countryside due to his parent's busy job was able thanks to the power of bonds resist the goddess of death Izanami dragging him to a hellscape where it kept on repeating the last day of his time in Inaba over and over again. Izanami in this case is the most accurate to return to zero because it is shown to keep sapping one's willpower before they just accept their fate. Yu was eventually able thanks to his connection with his bonds able to escape the hellscape and eventually summon Izanagi-No-Okami, a persona equal in power to Satanael to beat her.

[@OneyedRabbit]

Delusional high schooler vs Schizophrenic teenager

[@mrperson4542]

If you get the chance, I'd highly recommend checking out the greater Shin Megami Tensei mythos. The stuff that Joker does is only the tip of the iceberg of how bonkers the series can get. *Especially* considering Stephen.

[@micheledelloglio5820]

It's funny to think that Persona characters are not even that strong for the SMT Mythos. The Demifiend, Flynn and the Nahobino are far, FAR, stronger than them. Also, I will never find not funny that one of the strongest people in SMT is called "Stephen"

[@Rexperto6454]

GER is also among the weaker anime characters, it's just very good at not getting defeated. As soon as it encounters something with higher level reality manipulation (The World Over Heaven) it's helpless.

[@СергейДементьев-ы9р]

Everyone gangsta until Stephen stands up

[@omariwashington2570]

The funniest part about this comment is that Persona is more popular than the series that it originated from that's why modern Persona games dropped the Shin Megami Tensei.

[@tomo8940]

@omariwashington2570 It's still part of the Megami Tensei franchise as a whole. So suck it up as long as Persona keeps using the same demons it'll always be just another spinoff series.

[@8bitdiedie]

This Death Battle is the perfect example of why you shouldn’t let casual fans decide the match-ups. They’ll hype up match-ups like this cause they barely know that much about either franchise, only for Death Battle to point out that it’s actually one-sided and that their favorite character won’t win. Then those same people get mad at the fight being ‘unfair’, even though they were the ones shortsighted enough to ask for it.

[@kyokenx2]

Or they fuck up with scaling like with Ben ten vs green lantern or Give a character a feat that didn't do by themselves like in Bardock vs Omi man. There's more examples lol

[@AnonEcho98]

Yeah, fans seem to just work off of vibes and surface-level similarities which just... well, it don't make for exciting fights, that's for sure. Entertaining curbstomps is debatable as well.

[@AnonEcho98]

@@kyokenx2 Or do a bullshit amalgalm character (Thor and basically every comic book character) or just just heavily nerf someone for no reason (Gaara.)

[@kyokenx2]

@@AnonEcho98 RIGHTTTT lol

[@tudoraragornofgreyscot8482]

@@AnonEcho98to be fair, Gaara was a Season 2 episode, they have been much better at that. Also most versions of Thor trash vegeta so it doesn’t matter anyway

[@The_Crimson_Shogun]

Giorno: You will never reach the truth. Joker: I will fold you like laundry.

[@LordTyph]

Joker: I already stole it from you.

[@footsniffer5344]

Joker on his way to build a persona to Drain/Deflect every attack known to man-kind

[@nightmare3642]

Except Almighty.

[@darkstar_xd]

​​@@nightmare3642 And GER Dosen't have Almighty 😂

[@chadachi3970]

@@darkstar_xd We don't know that. Almighty ranges from shooting a gun, magic nukes and throwing money at people, him flicking a pebble could be considered Almighty damage.

[@darkstar_xd]

@@chadachi3970 We do, The Mere Concept of a Attack that can Bypass Any Defence, including Fate and Reality Manipulation, Dosen't Exist in Jojo. Fate can Be Bypassed in Jojo, But Something that can Ignore Reality itself Being Outered, Thats Something Only a Stand like Act 4 can do (Forgot the Stands Name) The Stand Called Something Act 4 Could Beat GER.

[@chadachi3970]

@@darkstar_xd It's called Tusk Act 4, and what does Tusk have to do with GER? Giono's ability to create objects out of nothing and use them as weapons could well be considered Almighty, cause like I said throwing literal money at enemies is an Almighty attack in SMT so throwing/flicking a pebble could as well be the same logic.

[@czms922]

Short answer: play persona Long answer: You're cooked if you think persona protags aren't bypassing ability nufflicantion when that's what they with on a Tuesday

[@zeanone9257]

I have a better option read about religion and the Bible and you understand the scale of every demon

[@firenze6478]

@@zeanone9257persona follows gnosticism which is satan’s fanfiction version of the Bible and isn’t accurate to the actual bible.

[@zeanone9257]

@@firenze6478 I never said that I said that . Satan in game has similar power scaling to the one in Bible

[@firenze6478]

@@zeanone9257 biblical satan’s powers are corrupting the heart and whispering lies into your ear. But he cannot even touch humanity directly unless he tricks a human into letting him in or God allows it like with Job. He rebelled, got his butt handed to him and got cast down to Earth. ( a big misconception is that he is not currently in Hell. Hell is a prison that he will be cast into after the second judgement.)

[@zeanone9257]

@@firenze6478 yes by an arc angle named Michel or mastima I don't remember. Also the angle that fell with him are called demons

[@goldenboy_808]

Kaleb discovers JRPG power scaling and how they kill gods and reality shaping beings on the regular

[@Enuocale]

Most jrpg protagonists do that in a very contextual way though, not with pure strength.

[@hiitsalex6780]

One of the problem with the battle, is that Golden Experience was moving freely like a pokemon, despite it being a short range stand. Sure, Golden Experience Requiem could move freely away from Giorno, but Golden Experience didn't turn Requiem until the end of the fight.

[@mechamanw668]

Tbf, that was only early on in the battle when Giorno was in the chair. They were right next to each other after Goorno got off his ass to double team Joker. I agree that it's a very weird mistake, but it happens early enough to where it isn't significant at all Not Gold Experience making the giant beanstalks. That's a different story XD

[@hiitsalex6780]

@mechamanw668 Golden Experience was also far from Giorno when he made Joker's grabbing hook into a snake.

[@mechamanw668]

@hiitsalex6780 I had to go back and check U right

[@8bitdiedie]

Say it with me again guys: “The animations in Death Battle don’t count and are only there for entertainment” One day people will remember that, one day.

[@A_Sketchy]

​@@8bitdiedie depends cause sometimes the way the battle ends means a lot for example green lantern vs ben 10 had a horrible ending and they straight up believed that's how Ben can lose most of the animation is entertainment but the ending is what really matters cause that's how they explain how one might lose

[@HabitualThinker]

Yeah. The answer is yeah. Also, it’s deadass just not a fair matchup. Now that said death battle better do adachi vs Yoshikage Kira, we know who wins but it would be peak, for the adachi fans (me)

[@johndoesstuff352]

still dont understand how ger can be bypassed when sinful shell itself has to be triggered by something materialistic

[@judemanr7814]

As someone who is NOT a persona fan. I can say I also want this MU because Yoshikage Kira is my favourite JoJo villain and deserves a good MU.

[@FranTheNerd]

i love this matchup because everyone wants kira to lose, Adachi as much as he's hatable DOES change for the better in arena ultimax and quite frankly I find more entertaining

[@FranTheNerd]

@@johndoesstuff352 because joker would have to be weaker than GER for it to effect him, or reality manipulators like the one he was fighting when he did the attack would of been nullified

[@johndoesstuff352]

@@FranTheNerd where do u get that that joker has to be weaker for GER to take effect?

[@Rlowe247]

The mess of comparing pure RPG logic to outside the system.

[@FranTheNerd]

short answer: no? but the result is accurate long answer: joker can just outright say no to the very thing GER uses for its hax

[@williammckenzie6865]

And GER just returns that intention to zero

[@generalgarchomp333]

​@@williammckenzie6865 no, due to how wild cards work you literally can't reduce their will to 0.

[@FranTheNerd]

@@williammckenzie6865 if GER could affect joker, but it can't

[@skypirate2181]

​@@williammckenzie6865 With joker. That's literally impossible

[@rafaeunr2358]

​@@williammckenzie6865i dont think you searched. Wildcard + L = imune to rtz.

[@esteban8471]

Requiem is undeniably powerful, but the scope of fiction is vast. And in that vast ocean of stories to tell, there's many franchises that are so hilariously OP nothing in JoJo can keep up. SMT, Persona included, just so happens to be one of them.

[@ThePlague_1888]

Ger could literally destroy reality for all we know, its stats are all unknown and could very likely be infinite

[@shminkl]

@@ThePlague_1888”GER has infinite stats” is literally the most brain dead take ever if he had infinite stats he wouldn’t even need to use RTZ in the first place dawg

[@ScarlightSci]

​@@ThePlague_1888 lol lets say they are joker is still shown to be above confirmed infinite beings

[@ThePlague_1888]

@@ScarlightSci whatever persona sucks anyway

[@ScarlightSci]

@Sundowner13 ok didn't even say I liked the series, haven't even played them

[@mariatukoroma3900]

Dammit now i want you to scale Persona cause you actually did a damn good job here Edit: The book and library comparison actually floored me 😭

[@Asamuraidoge]

Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby aahh matchup 😭😭

[@8bitdiedie]

“Bro, you don’t understand, coughing baby is actually the most OP character in fiction!”

[@Flamelance_Accendo]

@@8bitdiedie And its like the Hydrogen Bomb doesnt even care. lol

[@Stryfe52]

Hydrogen bomb gonna make an ash baby real quick

[@Marc-rw3dd]

Idk man, a coughing baby is pretty loud

[@MightGuy15]

So basically what you're saying is the death battle finally made an accurate prediction. Fantastic I've learned to always double-check after the whole Bardock versus Omni man and Ben 10 versus Green Lantern Fiasco

[@mastergamingdude6191]

Hold on now, throw em a bone. A lot of their matchups are actually accurate and still a lot of fun!

[@alperenylmaz9303]

Ben 10 vs Green Lantern was accurate, they just sucked at explaining it

[@engagepwner3396]

A lot is accurate, but then there are times they're so unbelievably wrong we question how they even come to said conclusion.

[@mastergamingdude6191]

@@engagepwner3396 True, but at least we get a good fight even if the conclusion is ass. I mean, glass half full, am I right?😌👐

[@Baki659]

​@@alperenylmaz9303lol no it wasnt alien x could literally just go back in tine himself with green lantern, and he could just instantly erase green lantern aswell😂 fight shouldve been over as soon as alien x was on scene

[@hiitsalex6780]

This video reminds me of your video about Giorno with every stands vs everyone.

[@generalgarchomp333]

So fun thing about social links. It isn't the people themselves powering him up, but the bonds of friendship they have with Joker. It is literally the power of friendship, there have been moments when this power was used when the allies of the wild cards were separated from their allies. And not just normal separated they were basically each in their own pocket dimension, and they all broke out of it.

[@o0ugi860]

Right? His friends could literally be dead and it wouldn't matter. We see that exact thing happen in p3.

[@ohcadin6590]

At the end of that video... I saw a lot of comments saying, "Wait, but even if he can overpower that action, how can he ignore his will being set to zero?!?!" Learning that the answer is "Joker's will is so strong he can just say no to losing his will" basically just confirmed my initial thought after seeing the video, which was "this was never a fair match to begin with cause Persona is just that busted apparently"

[@o0ugi860]

Pretty much

[@BingusBoogus]

Pretty much.

[@fakhriyusufm5489]

I thought this video would debunk the Joker vs Giorno deathbattle video and be a little biased but it turns out this video is calm and the analysis is quite good and not like in this comment place🗿😅 So great video

[@Brendanj101]

GER is the old school version of "can it bypass Infinity" of modern anime/manga debates.

[@o0ugi860]

Yep. And in both cases most ppl don't actually know how infinity/rtz works

[@infinitykiyen6270]

The worst of it all had to be Satanael. METAs also talk about it and he straight out avoid comparing entirely... Here's a back story of Satanael... Put it simple all SMT and Persona had the creators that can do everything. He set the law of the law of physics, demons and gods. He also add "humanity must obey him" as law of physics. Satanael hates that and destroy that law of physics and freed all humanity... Let this sink in... Satanael literally destroying law of physics just to free humanity and he was stopped from any farther damage because the creators uses his power to do anything to nuke him to death. In the alternative timeline Satanael might even destroy every universe concept if he go out of control. GER is a defensive stands so he can't kill Satanael to stop him from destroying the concept of stands, Requiem or Return by Zero. Eventually GER will be dead leaving Giorno alone as a regular dude without any stands... That's how fked up it is to match GER with Satanael... Yes Ultimate Stands vs Ultimate Persona isn't even close... Satanael would destroy GER to the point it can't even exist...

[@DeathLeprecon]

Knew next to nothing about Persona 5 before the death battle and I felt like they did a good job explaining why Joker won.

[@grimdear-d2k]

Funny enough, 1/2 of the reasons he won didnt come from his main game, but rather a shitloads of spin-offs, the predecessor Persona games, and the feats from the parent franchise Shin Megami Tensei. This conclusion had been drawn from 30+ years of spanning franchise (will turn 40 in 2026)

[@KingNerdius]

@@grimdear-d2kno

[@KraNisOG]

@@grimdear-d2k That's because the Persona series takes place canonically in the SMT world. Not to mention every single Persona game is canon according to Atlus.

[@grimdear-d2k]

@@KraNisOG indeed, I didnt reject such idea, in fact, I advocate for it. That every single Megaten games are connected under a same umbrella.

[@dhans9662]

The funny thing is that Joker was nerfed HEAVILY in this matchup. Null/Drain Physical alone would've rendered Giornos entire arsenal, including the death loop, useless.

[@barnabassebesteny1490]

9:41 honestly the thing is like Jobber’s points on why GER loses to Jotaro are pretty on point and I do agree I respect him a lot for his research and interpretation, my only problem is is that like every “Jotaro fan” he is just Pucci fan hyping him up. To give an idea: basically Yk how in One Piece Zoro fans hype up Mihawk and myth to scale him above the whole verse only so that they can then say that: “if Mihawk could do it then Zoro can definitely do it”, basically he (and his fans) is only using Jotaro to hype up Pucci, so that Made In Heaven cna be stronger then everyone, and just like the Sukuna fans can, MIH fans easily ignore the context around how and why Jotaro lost and fail to notice that in a neutral scenario it is confirmed in part 6 final episode that bro is literally a Weather Report victim, and now they gotta scale Weather above Star Platinum, I wish them all the luck with that (no disrespect to anyone and I hope no one took offence I am just pointing these out as it happens)

[@AmericanBrit9834]

Weather Report isn't exactly an automatic win against MIH. It was its use in conjunction with BDTH that sealed Pucci's fate. Frankly, oxygen manipulation is useless if you're not in an enclosed environment. If it wasn’t for that toxic trap, MIH’s sheer speed blitzes.

[@8bitdiedie]

Um, Weather Report IS above Star Platinum. When was the last time Star Platinum threatened to rip up the ozone layer and kill every living being in its vicinity? Plus, Pucci was clearly more terrified of Heavy Weather than Star Platinum. To him, Star Platinum was an obstacle but Weather Report was a calamity.

[@dripg0djv280]

What he means is, in a 1v1 fight Star Platinum wins against Weather Report

[@AmericanBrit9834]

Weather Report isn't an instant win against MIH. The oxygen trick only works with an enclosed environment like BDTH. In the open, MIH easily beats WR.

[@KraNisOG]

Made In Heaven is stronger than GER otherwise part 6 wouldn't have happened the way it did.

[@ForYouTheOneListening]

How have this many people not played Persona? It's ludicrous.

[@raikasha8152]

Well playing a game isn't knowing how OP it's lore and characters are especially cause of the most of the Persona 5 fans (lot of which haven't even actually played the games) aren't powerscalers if not borderline normies.

[@tomo8940]

Now imagine how many of them tried playing SMT for more context? Persona protags are pathetic by comparison.

[@wyald7240]

I heard of it but it’s not my type of game lol

[@WDinATX]

Because it’s a really good game? To be honest I didn’t know that the Omnipotent Orb existed until well after I’d beaten the game and I disagree with plenty of stuff people use to powerscale Joker… but this video didn’t get into the stuff I disagree with. 👀 Edit: Oh my god I misread that and just did not see the “not” at first. I’m so dumb…

[@chadachi3970]

Played all of them, P5 is overrated and P3R and P4 are much better. I mainly say this from a story/character standpoint, as the story/characters are the weakest part of P5. None of the characters outside of Joker is important, they have very little impact on the story and their development is locked behind the dating sim aspect of the game. P3 and P4 have strong character development during the story, which makes them better and enhances the story. No character in P5 compares to Junpei/Aegis and the friend group of P5 is more like Joker fanclub/glazers compared to P4's group. The main reason to play Persona is for the story/characters, which P5 kinda drops the ball with. Royal is the only reason I enjoy P5 because Maruki, Akechi and Sumire are compelling characters who's development is tied to the actual story of the game, though you do have to max rank their social links. Gameplay wise P5 is really good, but Metaphor has definitely overtaken it in that now and I personally like Metaphor's narrative more than P5's as well, the characters are also way better and again feel more impactful to the story. Of course this is all my opinion, I just prefer most other SMT games to P5... wont get into Strange Journey or DDS lol

[@JackgarPrime]

Almighty is basically a non-element. It's a damage type that exists outside of the weakness and resistance system that every character has. So regardless of the type affinity of the target, it will always do the same damage calculation. Unless they have some type of ability or equipment that resists Almighty specifically, which is extremely rare.

[@ontheinside]

It's actually a lot worse than they presented it , the velvet room is actually stated to TRANSCEND the concepts of space and time and that's nothing, I'm surprised thet got the outcome right

[@Enuocale]

That doesn't really mean anything though.

[@Davinator12]

We will never know the true power of GER until Araki says something

[@nadavloss1103]

He tried to but GER returned it to zero so we wouldn't know

[@jaymercer4515]

Coming in as someone who only played Persona 5 but am a diehard JoJo fan, the knee-jerk was GER; however, I was like... but Persona goes blow for blow with Deities. Joker got it depending on his Persona. He'll, maybe even just with Arséne. Been some years since I played, iirc, Joker literally *wills himself back into existence.*

[@Enuocale]

Willing himself back into existence isn't that impressive. It's just normal will power. It's because the world was altered to one where the will of the people rejected him, and this could keep him from existing there.

[@rinoakirova1548]

Even if Joker didn't outclass GER in every stat category, it really boils down to Return to Zero's ability. Sinful Shell has entered the building

[@SunlightHollow99]

He definitely doesn’t outclass him in every stat and he would never get the chance to use sinful shell

[@Enuocale]

Strictly speaking he shouldn't have sinful shell at all, since it didn't come from pre existing bonds but was a temporary one time amp that came from the population supporting him right then.

[@MoxieBoosted]

Pokemon mentioned‼️‼️‼️

[@KalebIA]

Omggg famous KZbinr

[@mosesabulude6940]

Yall the easiest way to put persona, is "fuck it we ball" that why giorno couldnt win

[@Gordan1Freeman3]

Fun Fact, while it does take a lot more out of them, Persona users are able to manifest their Personas in the real world. They don't have to be in the Metaverse, TV World, Dark Hour or such. It's just a lot more taxing on them if they do summon their Personas in the real world

[@GadgetGuy_]

Awesome, can’t wait for Yu vs Josuke

[@reflex9238]

It’s never fair, Persona is just way too OP for JoJo. Heck even the strongest Stands wouldn’t have a chance.

[@microblast3700]

Joker seems to deal with enemies that are on giorno power on the regular

[@camcan1243]

This was a well informed and educational video.

[@reececollins9212]

My answer for this match up is “The truth is what you want to believe.”

[@tobigrantlbart]

If Ren and Giorno would go at it in the real world, I would like Giorno be banned from using his stand because then we'd just have two highschoolers go at it. Just that one is running the mob

[@solarearbol1469]

Joker has no proven outside the metaverse hands, I love my thief boi but Giorno puts the paws on him no mercy without powers lmao

[@amurderofcrows4984]

@@solarearbol1469You underestimate Ren. Brother is absolutely jacked if you’ve read the mangas. Add to it all the time he spends training with Sumi, and he at the very least puts up a good fight.

[@KraNisOG]

Canonically speaking, Joker is both a strategist, and tactician. He is also a genius, and is shredded. I wouldn't say he has any martial arts or anything like that, but default Joker is stronger and smarter than default Giorno. He has trained with his friends, and he knows how to fight and hold his own, but as for something like martial arts only Makoto knows any, and her base form is able to break concrete (And Joker is supposed to be stronger than her for both of their bases)

[@tobigrantlbart]

@@KraNisOG Y'all I just want a 16 year old and a 15 year old fight each other without supernatural powers, because I think the thought is funny

[@ThePhantom9000]

If it was Yu from persona 4 it would have been worse his whole thing is seeing through lies and obtaining truth that is the hardest counter to GER

[@tomo8940]

Yu has to be the strongest Persona protag.

[@ThePhantom9000]

@tomo8940 nah I'm giving that to makoto

[@tomo8940]

@ThePhantom9000 No he's a door now. So by default Yu wins.

[@xenowarrior282]

​@@tomo8940 Literally the weakest. The strongest is either Ren or Tatsuya depending on how you scale

[@tomo8940]

@xenowarrior282 Tatsuya is strong? I mean he can dodge bullets with a katana so maybe.

[@TwilightNK]

10:38 It would be hilarious seeing Gilgamesh on Death Battle, just for how one-sided the fight would be 😭

[@Ulquiorra-beyond]

Tbh The Match Is unfair as Hell not only because of hax But because of the Stats (The best Stands in raw Strenght are only Building level at Best)

[@Kira22558]

Finally someone who doesn't overrated the physical strenght of Ger.

[@Enuocale]

I mean, most personas are only building level at best too. It's not a series with very high battle stats.

[@Bleeperblopper497]

​@@Enuocale uh yes it does, universe busters and reality warpers

[@Enuocale]

@Bleeperblopper497 there are no universe busters in Persona that involve battle stats. Nyx is presented as way too strong to even pretend they can contend with just because it was planetary.

[@SiilanPies]

When I saw the Death Battle announced, I was convinced that GER clears. And I say this as someone with TWO Persona 5 tattoos (P5R is my favourite game of all time). But you've convinced me of the opposite, assuming that the fight happens in the Metaverse.

[@thatonesaltykid9805]

Gojo is turned into red mist by Sonic The Hedgehog

[@tamimtio3052]

Great video, and helps explain it all in simpler terms and ideas for people not as absorbed into the two series and power scaling as One thing I want to add though, is that even in the real world, all the Persona protagonists are like peak human if not actual superhuman, with genius level intellect, like master martial artists and perfect marksman type of stuff, it is awesome So if we took out stands and the metaverse, Ren still torches Giorno in a hand to hand fight, and I think that is really cool

[@shlumpedzs3623]

Bruh i really thought we was talking about batman joker😭im like damn no wonder batman cant beat him he hanging with GER

[@M4x_P0w3r]

He might as well have GER. "You'll never reach the truth of me remaining in Arkham's Asylum, bats."

[@yabarber6902]

With how DC writes Batman now, I would be surprised if GER beat Batman

[@GioGio-ne9rs]

Joker: You can't defeat me. Giorno: I know, but he can! *Bohemian Rhapsody Requiem shows up*

[@tposeinggojirainshoes4650]

Im just glad that they let giorno fight strategically and what not with with his damage reflect and soul charge. The only win con i really saw for him was by damage reflect but honestly I don’t even know if that would happen given the amounta crap joker has

[@Gojira104]

Even then, Joker has dealt with Damage reflection before, and his own superior healing ability renders that moot.

[@superbrainz2357]

​@@Gojira104Yeah damage reversal only really works if the opponent cant tank their own attacks. Luca was a regular guy who caved his skull in with his own shovel. Completely different outcome if someone like superman did it since it would probably just feel like getting hit by one of his enemies like doomsday.

[@LordTyph]

It's not even a real win-con, multiple Personas null phys attacks or even reflect it back. Hell, damage absorption is a thing in this too. It only works if you consider the reflection from Gold Experience as 'Almighty' damage by technicality, and it probably wouldn't be.

[@o0ugi860]

​@@superbrainz2357even then he has makarakarn and tetrakarn, and depending on the persona can reflect it right back.

[@SonicSpeedGaming759]

As huge fan of Persona 5 the research you did was accurate

[@bennogb5069]

7:18 there is noe vidence that GER operates outside of normal time. Diavolos ability doesnt actually "erase time". Time still flows normally, peoplea re jsut unaware of whats happening. Thats why car crashes happen every time he uses the ability, because the cars are still moving.

[@veggieboi4994]

No, it's stated even in guides and by diavolo himself that it erases time lol. Multiple times actually, because king Crimson works in tandem with epitaph. Think of it like this, he views the results(future) with epitaph. Thus, he uses king Crimson to skip time and thus skip TO the results instead of going through them. He erases that section of time (and space as a result), so the only the thing that will happen, happens. Time is not flowing, that's not what happens at all. Also, within that section of erased time RTZ still activated, and restored that time. Hell, that's even more reason to see that time is restored. We can see pieces of the world being put back together even though they should have been gone. Moreover Diavolo can't interact with these things since they're temporarily erased

[@Anonymous.Watcher]

I think with what we have joker wins no doubt. The main problem is we don’t get to see the limitations of return to zero. As of now we know that return to zero is reality manipulation, etc. the problem is we don’t know if it goes even further than that.

[@omariwashington2570]

Y'all should be lucky that it was the Persona 5 protagonist, and that's the Persona 4 protagonist because he literally has an ability to always see the truth, which would be a direct counter to reset to zero, "by the Myriad Truths"

[@tomo8940]

At least that would've been easy to explain then this power scaling bs.

[@Thatguyfromp5]

And the p3 protag can instantly kill giorno with Armageddon

[@ihavenonamestilldonthaveon8970]

​@@Thatguyfromp5assuming it could even go through, GR could null him if hes fast enough tho. He has no counter to that unless the universe arcana somehow turns the tides on that. Seeing as how he got rid of the apocalypse by telling Death to go to sleep, face tanking attacks that are literally made of the concept of dying, and effectively beating it into submission and holding the bringer of mass death to Earth in a room, GER would still have some trouble if he didnt immediately revert to zero him

[@centurionscutscenethefullm1846]

Oh yeah fs the p4 mc just hard counters GER but P5 mc is stronger than p4 mc but regardless they both unironically sweep p3 mc

[@omariwashington2570]

@centurionscutscenethefullm1846 two High School versus a door, place your bets guys.

[@akumunokami9]

Jokers true name is John Anime and his crew is named the Chadimes.

[@VanBlackstar]

This battle is not even Close. joker is a trickster meaning GER's OP Causality can't affect him or his persona. But of course, Death Battle have to nerf him to make the fight interesting

[@thunderhogTH]

The biggest issue of this matchup is that in order for it to be a fight at all, you have to fight on Jokers home rules of the metaverse where he has the natural upperhand. In a lot of ways its a sort of [Man in the Mirror] situation where Joker is just fully in charge since the metaverse bends itself to concepts that Girono just barely has a hold on. Unless you can take the fight outside the metaverse you're just cooked.

[@DARS_04]

I always knew that Joker had more anime bullshit up his sleeve more than Giorno anyway...

[@blackcatcrew6965]

all things considered, Giorno's powers by the tail end of part 5 is vague and Joker has so much that he can do that it's essentially unfair to pit them together

[@pablogarcia6188]

low key as a fan of persona 5 and someone whos never seen part 5 i low key thought joker was gonna loss by having is willpower reverted to 0

[@Dio____Brando]

The metaverse also affects the real world too killing someone in the metaverse can Force them into a mental breakdown

[@BenjaminCox-x6v]

Jrpg Lore is just too much, even FF lore which is a bit tamer than SMT and Persona has insane stats and ability’s compared to manga and anime characters

[@Enuocale]

Not really? All these jrpg series the protagonists dont really get all that strong in. Definitely not as much as high level Shonen and isekai characters.

[@connorharnage6697]

So the thing about Social Links (this is why I don't consider it cheating) is that once maxed out they basically become a passive. Using P4 as an example, NOBODY besides the Investigation Team and maybe Marie and Adachi knew about Izanami. The Investigation Team wanted to know who made the TV world, met Izanami and chased her in to fight her. Yet if all of them are maxed out, every social link cones back to give Narukami the last boost he needed. So if we assume this is Joker just before he returns home and he's maxed out all his social links, none of the Confidants are interfering because they're not actually doing anything at all. It just happens

[@A.Broken.Arrow.]

I couldve sworn that Return to Zero only works on actions of injustice, and I don't think Joker is acting against Justice at all. So as much as I love Jojo more, it likely wouldn't effect Ren at all.

[@SunlightHollow99]

That’s just your headcannon cuz nowhere is that ever stated

[@UnwantedGhost1-anz25]

Kratos would be proud of Ren after rejecting fate.

[@Enuocale]

The irony is that joker defying fate was ordained by fate? So are you really defying fate if you were fated to do so?

[@Nolava0why7Because0yes]

Yea there was nothing he could do, Jonkler just says no to everything

[@Jade_Bunbun]

Nuh uh vs no u

[@knightoftachyon261]

thank you for helping me digest this and accepting this, but now I want to know if almighty damage can harm Wonder of U

[@fantasiesarereal]

It can.

[@GabrielTan-st6xq]

wonder of U is kinda overwanked imo.it died to a bubble that only scales to building level at best.go beyond is just a regular bubble that resides outside the jojo universe thus allowing it to hit wou due to it being above logic.almighty attacks like myriad truths and sinful shell can 1 shot gods that see the persona universe which is the same as smt if as fiction,which already puts them at baseline complex multiversal.so all the persona protags at a minimum should already be above complex multiversal which is far beyond anything in jojo even including the novel.

[@Amsel_616]

Most likely it can, Go Beyond's bubbles technically don't exist so they bipass WoU who's a Stand that uses a concept/law that exists in the entire multiverse as his power. And whit the lore of Almighty bypassing reality bending just because it can, it shouldn't be a problem.

[@ultrainstinctgokuhope7442]

​@Amsel_616 Yea go beyond bubble go beyond fate of wou ability because it doesn't exist in that logic

[@autisonm]

Something even some Persona fans dont know is that Persona users *CAN* summon their Personas into the "real world" because the world is split into the sub-conscious Metaverse and the conscious "Real World". All of humanity basically shapes both worlds but the major difference is that the sub-conscious world is more influenced by emotions while the Real World is limited by "logic" in a way. The humans of the Real World essentially counterbalance each other, which is why things are normal there. Someone with sufficient willpower or abilities, such as Persona users or gods can alter the Real World. It simply takes more effort for them to do it because they're fighting against the collective consciousness of humanity more than they would be in the Metaverse.

[@AirahsELL]

That's because the 2 games where that actually happened have been all but forgotten by Atlus themselves and they're never gonna remake them.

[@autisonm]

@@AirahsELL It's still cannon to the series. Morgana mentions it.

[@o0ugi860]

​@@AirahsELL no, p3 has stuff like this too. Ryoji transforming into thanatos in the middle of the day, Chidoris persona going berserk in the middle of the day. So yeah ur just wrong.

[@kromalekri]

That battle was more one sided than Omni Man vs Homelander

[@HaiVinh-yu5wy]

Next question, can any stand in jojo defeat joker

[@KraNisOG]

No.

[@hendrikdormin1578]

We should appreciate the editing in this video

[@N_DAnimationEnthusiast]

Disregarding a few hiccups, Pretty accurate. 9:38 Aye, Jobber shoutout!!!

[@bruhmanTheBreeder]

0:35 diavolo is already dead the reason why giorno didn't k*lled the diavolo is because giorno was used ger's ability. diavolo can't d*e

[@____________838]

So… Can you make a Gilgamesh VS Dio video?

[@BlackHawke21]

Fantastic Video! Always saw this matchup as an unfortunate stomp in Jokers favor. But then again, that is MOST of Giorno's matchups. Can they bypass RtZ? If no, he wins. If yes, he loses.

[@RyanLalonde-l6r]

People who don't watch JoJo believe that JoJo has the most op characters. When in reality they don't. 😂😅

[@RyanLalonde-l6r]

I mean some r yeah but still lack compared to others

[@Enuocale]

Tbf the same is true of people who don't play persona. The characters aren't really that strong, special wildcard abilities aside.

[@theemperor69420]

It’s crazy that I had to find your video for an actual good explanation. The explanation used in death battle doesn’t feel like they really read Jojo it really felt like they didn’t respect the characters even for joker explanations they used it just bad but you actually explained it if they would’ve just took your video and put it at the end of the death battle I guarantee most people would not be having a problem with the death battle

[@JamesAK-t6f]

I’m cooked. @Kaleb I. A. You should make a video on Joker (Persona) vs Ghost Rider (Marvel Comics Ver)

[@soldierofkazus]

This matchup is beyond being a low difficulty stomp, it's a difference of tiers of infinity. Joker just plain _has more infinities_ on his side.

[@TrulyGodsGoofiest]

I find it weird that people are putting Meta Verse Joker against Normal World Giorno. Aren't Meta Verse characters sauced the fuck up compared to the normal version of characters? Seems pretty unfair given that we're implying verse equalization to be at play given how Joker can see Golden Experience. We either play it fairly or don't play at all.

[@micheledelloglio5820]

You get the amp if you have a Persona, it's not automated. Would Giorno develop a Persona? Yes, probably. And would do it rejecting his mask like P5 cast, but he technically doesn't have it

[@lianglianggoh2753]

This isn't going to be easy to explain but... We just really don't have an idea on what Shadow Giorno would be like. Metaverse characters, or referred to as Shadows are the manifestation of one's desires, while palaces and everything inside are their cognitions. They are powerful, sometimes. Some Shadow versions of characters can certainly fight like Shadow Kamoshida, Madarame, Sae and Shido. Some are pathetic like Shadow Kaneshiro and Shadow Okumura (Shadow Futaba just turns into the real world counterpart's Persona I guess, you just fight her dead mother in the palace). Saying this, we have no idea how Shadow Giorno would fight. Does he get GE? Does he get GER? He may as well be weaker than his actual self since it's based off his desires. And we can't just go off by using real world Joker/Ren since he just gets stomped on. If we want to go by Giorno in the Metaverse as in himself, eh? It's not like you gain superhuman abilities by just entering it, plus if Giorno actually gets his Persona, Joker can just pull out a Persona that just counters anything Giorno's Persona throws at him. There are several invincible Persona builds and are canon since you can use skill cards. The Metaverse pretty much hinders Giorno.

[@micheledelloglio5820]

@lianglianggoh2753 I don't think Giorno would even have a palace, he is not "classic good guy" but he doesn't have twisted deaires, he is a good guy at heart. Giorno in the Metaverse is the only possible setting that could work outside "3d party dimension that give Ren the same stats he has in the Metaverse", it's the curse of the even playing field. Also yes, even Giorno pulled up a Persona, Joker has a Wild Card, so he can literally switch persona to counter him

[@hadouradiance3566]

Because normal Giorno is the only Giorno that exists, and metaverse Joker is the only Joker with powers. Unless you really think Giorno with GER shitting on a powerless high schooler is fair lol. Edit: Also you don't NEED to specifically be a stand user to see stands. Gyro was able to see stands with the Eyes of The Saint's Corpse, which isn't a stand. You just need to be able to perceive souls and invisible things, which Joker can do.

[@JoJo-lo3ln]

If this fight was taken in the meta verse. Giorno is the mafia boss and just like joker's friends power him up by thinking some way of him wouldn't people who know Giorno also affect Giorno the same way?

[@Notgoren]

thats a nice way of thinking about it but no the social link thing in persona is part of an ability called the wild card which is given to the protagonist and is the reason he can use multiple personas and get stronger the stronger his relationships are

[@ThatSneakman]

People bring up the thing about The World Over Heaven not being canon, but Araki was still involved in the game. He signed off on it.

[@FranTheNerd]

yeah i doubt he'd sign off on contradictory feats for stands lmao

[@Amsel_616]

I think Jober have a good argument for that when the battle came out, if the creator of the series is supervising the script and is a-ok whit GER being defeated, that should at minimum make you walk back and think for a bit.

[@o0ugi860]

​@@FranTheNerd the same guy who made hermes stand stats the same as star platinum? Yeah definitely.

[@kirinashia567]

Omnipotent Orb is a bit jank because it's not so much that Almighty itself would ignore it, but that it has that weakpoint. Almighty attacks can be avoided, countered, nullified, etc, by much weaker characters. So although Omnipotent Orb can nullify everything else and Almighty works on it, Almighty also can fail against opponents a gun could hurt.

[@mizzix]

Almighty isn't infallible, it can be stopped by non-reality warping abilities. It just so happens that GER uses reality warping to defend itself specifically, and almighty bypassing the orb would grant it an anti-reality warping feat, because the orb also uses reality warping for it's defenses.

[@kirinashia567]

@mizzix The thing is that because it's just a weakness as every other enemy in persona has weaknesses, it's not feasible to say Almighty bypasses Reality Warping just because Almighty works on the Orb. Because the other ways to defend against Almighty are significantly less than reality warping. It's like if someone is immune to Lightning and Fire and you stab them, that doesn't mean stabbing is "bypassing" their defenses- They just don't have a defense for it.

[@mizzix]

​@@kirinashia567But then you'd have to ask why yaldabaoth for example, a reality warper, didn't just stop joker's sinful shell through reality warping, or really any reality warper in the smt series. Why didn't izanami stop yu's myriad truths? Why didn't enlil stop the protags ultimate almighty attack? It also has foundation in smt lore, describing almighty as a light that governs destruction and anyone hit by it has no choice but to follow annihilation beyond death, and the persona 3 novels describe it as warping space itself. Almighty bypassing reality warping through it's hax has far more foundation than not. Hax also doesn't have tiers of powers either. Someone with reality warping hax would probably be affected by diavolo's time erasure for example, since it takes away their memory as well. Reality warping is far more impressive than time manipulation though. Doesn't mean that time erasure wouldn't work on reality warper. Same thing for almighty. It bypassing reality warping specifically doesn't mean that it couldn't be affected by something less grand.

[@kirinashia567]

@mizzix Then you'd have to ask the exact same thing about other combats in the series. Why is this other reality warper weak to lightning? Why is this one weak to wind? "Anyone hit by it has no choice but to follow annihilation beyond death" yknow except the fact you can resist Almighty when hit by it, passively, like an element. Or just null it. P4 even has regular weak ass mobs with Almighty resist.

[@mizzix]

​​@@kirinashia567Far as im aware there is no reality warper weak in the series to any element so that's one hell of a false equivalence. Like i said, almighty bypassing reality warping has far more consistency than not. You can disagree, but the matter of fact is that almighty has backing in the story, lore and feats of the series. It being stopped are outliers that can be easily dismissed as gameplay mechanics, layered hax, or as i stated, the fact that almighty not being stoppable by reality warping doesn't mean it isn't unstoppable in general.

[@Akiraspin]

Without Igor the Phantom Thieves literally stay erased. Igor tells us the only reason we are alive is because *HE* brought us to the Velvet Room and saved us. We *were* erased, and Joker had *nothing to do or say about it.* Igor literally says "you can consider this a "freebie" of sorts." He's telling us "Yeah Yaldaboath just one-tapped all of you, but he cheated to do it, so as *GM* I'm calling a reroll." *Igor feats are not Joker feats.* Might as well say Yamcha can use Ultra Instinct because he hangs out with Goku who has UI.

[@phantomnite]

The only things i find wrong (aside from them using EOH) is them using Morningstar for the durability calc and you using the velvet room for speed calcs. Morningstar is an attack used by only two characters. Lavenza, and Joker, so the only place they can get this calc from is the Lavenza boss fight. My only problem with that is, that its debatably canon. Theres nothing outside that moment in game that says that Joker fought Lavenza, so using that fight is dubious to me. For the velvet room. I dont think he was literally moving the velvet room, more so just either, controlling it since he took it over, or using his powers, which doesnt make it a speed calc for me. I could be wrong about this though

[@mizzix]

Morning star was used for speedz not durability, and it is valid without lavenza, because normal shadows can dodge's joker's own morning star, and since he obviously scales to those shadows, the feat is still valid. Joker = shadow > morning star's speed

[@phantomnite]

@mizzix Ok, but as a defense Calc (which was my point with Morning Star), it isn't valid

[@Enuocale]

​@mizzix yeah but when its dodged you see people dodge at normal soeed. Nothing in the series is faster than like bullet timing so thry just straight up made up feats.

[@sirnutaku7716]

Look I'm a JJBA fan that is up to date with everything (At jjba part 9) and a persona fan who has played all persona games including Persona What if and read all the mangas. The easiest way to put it down is Joker is a JRPG mc aka he kills God's for breakfast, lunch and dinner with GER as a drink

[@Enuocale]

Most jrpg protagonists aren't that strong though. The "gods" are usually vulnerable to some pretty mundane stuff.

[@Alduinhead]

I've played P5 like 20 times and I had no idea Joker's power ran that deep

[@Enuocale]

I mean... it doesn't really. He just has a few good hax.

[@Alduinhead]

@Enuocale Yeah, I'm skeptical at best.

[@BladeCrossEXE]

Death Battle: We're not gonna give Jotaro Star Platinum Over Heaven and Reality Rewrite because Eyes of Heaven isn't canon. Also Death Battle: We're gonna reference an OVA specific feat for Star Platinum's Strength Stat, despite this moment not being from the manga, and we're also gonna reference Eyes of Heaven to show that GER can be defeated.

[@superbrainz2357]

The jotaro one sucked because they use the OVA after they gave star platinum a calc of 3 MILLION TONS of force for the diamond teeth which is in the manga and canon. A 3 million ton plus near lightspeed combined with timestop star platinum should've pasted Kenshiro by their own logic. I'm fine with EOH in this episode though. GER is essentially fearless outside of the ending of part 5 so we have no real gauge for his limits. Frankly I'm still not over how they said DIO could nuke cities and move at 1500 times the speed of light. Apparently that only happened because one of deathbattle's head researchers, Liam, was a massive DIO fan and glazed him to the heavens for that episode.

[@BladeCrossEXE]

Not to mention they SEVERELY down-played Alucard's guns. Regardless of whether or not DIO is weak to Holy weapons, the Casull and Jackal are monsters of hand-cannons and not just "dead weight" as they claimed. The Casull has enough force to go clean through 2 people at once, with a massive entry-wound, letting you see all the way through, reference Alucard shooting Seras and the Cheddar Priest. Father Anderson could tank these shots like nothing, and his regeneration factor was strong enough to stop and crumple the bullets, then spit them back out. He can also take rapid fire from multiple M16-looking assault rifles, and not so much as flinch. Alucard's second gun, the Jackal, absolutely shreds Anderson with zero effort. Now, let's look at DIO. His BODY is still Human, since it belongs to Johnathan, and DIO said that when Polnareff stabbed him in the head, he ALMOST had him. We don't have a great strength feat for Silver Chariot, but I'm willing to bet the Jackal blowing off Anderson's head was WAY stronger than Polnareff's stab. Counter-point, DIO took a punch to the skull from Star Platinum, who can break giant diamond-strength teeth. I don't think the Jackal's bullets are quite to that level. They also gave DIO his Stingey Eyes and othet Vampire abilites, which, as far as I know, the only media we see DIO, not Dio Brando, using these, was Heritage For The Future, the fighting game. I don't really know if Alucard would or should have beat DIO, but they just severely under-estimate the strength of the Jackal.

[@superbrainz2357]

​​​@@BladeCrossEXEI think a fight between DIO and Alucard is hard to call on a quick 1v1 slugfest most death battles are. DIO has the overall stat advantage but Alucard has the war of attrition in his favor and isn't destroyed by sunlight. They severly highballed DIO's space ripper stingy eyes by saying it was nuke level from splitting a filler cloud in the part 1 anime. It could still slice and dice through Alucards minions since it can cut through zombies and the stone of his castle in the manga but why would Alucard ever use all of the at once like in the battle? I think DIO could've used hisbvampiric powers once he absorbed Joseph's blood but I remember reading somewhere that he didnt do it because he thinks the world is invincible and in a meta context they would be useless against Jotaro anyway. Another point is while the world may be around lightspeed or atleast hypersonic. DIO himself cannot move that fast. No stand user can and the distinction is important yet a lot of vs debates forget that. I know they said DIO could tank blows from star platinum but that's not really true. Everytime star platinum got good hits in DIO had broken limbs or was left paralyzed. He got his leg chopped off by a shard of glass moving at high speeds and a cops bullet did puncture his head (granted it did frick all but Alucards guns can blow off other vampires like Luke's limbs off). DIO could also just take away Al's guns or break them during a timestop. But Alucard does have other attacks. I think a canon scenario would be DIO easily timestopping and ripping Alucard apart and proceeding to gloat while letting his guard down before his head gets shot at and either dying or barely reacting in time and realizing this won't be easy. Also I liked how they said alucard could resist hypnosis and then later said DIO could just later hypnotize him to learn how to beat schrodinger, bruh avdol got away before he could place a flesh bud Alucard ain't getting hypnotized easily. I don't think a DIO win is impossible but its gonna be a massive uphill battle he could not win as easily as they portrayed. I think his own personality could very well screw him over given how overcompetent he can be at times.

[@BladeCrossEXE]

Yeah, the scene with DIO punching the Road Roller, in the Manga (and all the games), it's JUST DIO. It's only the anime that added The World's fists, and it was more likely that he was just using The World to augment his own punches instead of ACTUALLY matching The World's speed. Also, even when he DID survive that blow to the head, it crippled his legs. He had to crawl away and use the car to get some distance. As for whether or not Alucard would choose to go Level Zero, I honestly don't think he would. Alucard KNOWS the handicap it places on him, and it really IS more effective as an anti-army force instead of a 1v1.

[@chuckingreaper8654]

@@superbrainz2357DIO doesn’t need to move at light speed to be menacing. The World moves at faster than light speed and DIO can perceive such speed relative to the World. Unless Alucards guns shoot faster than light, he has no chance at beating a DIO who fights seriously. The entire fight with Jotaro was around 3 minutes. DIO was able to spam The World several times during said time.

[@webblorin9614]

I don’t know Persona, so I can’t really argue on the result. Still I don’t think DB explained how strong Joker really was, I thought GER was faster from watching(GER is MTFL as stated by the author). Now I see he’s not, my original confusion from the battle was Joker’s final attack. We knew it bypassed defenses, but does Return to 0 count as a defense, I didn’t know. Another thing on Return to Zero, at least in JoJo’s and how I understand it, is manipulating a fundamental law (Cause & Affect). This also defies the Fate of their verse which King Crimson at least bypasses. fast forwarding time according to fate and allowing the user to change it. This would make Return to Zero meet two of the four criteria, but it has arguments for Dimensional Transcendence and is shown to be lesser than low level reality manipulation.

[@Notgoren]

the thing is sinfull shell (joker's final attack) doesnt just bypass any defence it was out right stated that it cant be stop by the laws of the universe and we also know that it cant be stoped by reality and time manipulation since yaldabaoth (the final boss) already tried that and failed the only thing that GER's RTZ can affect is jokers will which also was stated to be unbreakable unereasable and uneffected by outside factors we saw that happen against maruki who just completely ereased and remade a new reality where nothing from the events of the game happened and tried to keep jokers rebillious will in check and inactive (baisicly making it 0) and faild yes i know how BS this sounds its like the persona devs made joker to be THE perfect counter for everything GER can do

[@HebiSaru21]

10:20 I thought Giorno not being pulled to support Pucci would've meant he had some resistance. Especially since Fate kept being brought up. Less that bit in Part 6 was overemphasized that Pucci was meant to reach Heaven and was supposed to have the sons of Dio help him.

[@zacharyfewins8087]

Honestly, it was probably something related to GER and his whole experience with Diavolo that must’ve made him the master of his own fate. Either that or it was literally just that fate favors him without reservation, like with him getting the arrow.

[@8bitdiedie]

Araki implied Giorno was in Florida during part 6 due to fate, but simply didn’t come across Pucci. Source: Rykiel’s profile

[@moley249]

@@zacharyfewins8087 it was explained in the final episode of part 5, when mista destroyed the rolling stone, he freed the entire gang of their fates he woke the sleeping slaves up

[@8bitdiedie]

@@moley249Their fate in relation to how they end up dying, but not fate in general. Also, technically speaking it only effected Bruno, Abbachio and Narancia.

[@smallfryenjoyer]

​@8bitdiedie wasn't that just put there by a fan translator or somethin?

[@Oldgeezershadow]

In raw stats alone, as much as I love JJBA characters really don't have much going for them in the power category. Even the "strong" stands aren't really powerful in the most direct sense of the term, but rather that the side effects of their stands can do a lot of damage (i.e. MiH isn't itself blowing up the universe. It's speeding up the inorganic flow of time so much that anyone living at that moment would see the heat death of the universe in a 24 hour period in real time. World Over Heaven and SPOH might actually be the only exceptions to this rule, but only insomuch as reality warping is insanely powerful to begin with). It's what makes the JJBA battle system so fascinating, actually. Obviously, there are noteworthy exceptions (infinite spin from TA4 generating infinite force being the most noteworthy), but generally speaking, stands usually don't win on power alone so much as bypassing potential (take another stand with an infinite ability, like SAW:GB, which uses infinitely small strands in its attacks, not itself possessing any real power, but bypassing any defense as - strictly speaking - "nothing" would be passing through it). It makes for some really cool for creative battle outcomes, but doesn't hold up well in a universe where something like reality warpers are a dime a dozen.

[@Enuocale]

Tbf joker isn't all that physically strong either, nit counting sinful shell. Just has a lot of hax.