Is Rhys Real?? YOU Season 4 Theory Explained!

[@cinekizzle]

What do you think about this theory? Do you think Rhys is real or do you think Joe is just imagining him??

[@vukkicos5688]

I think that Rhys is a real person, but that Joe basically pinning all of his atrocities to him. Why? It is possible that the theory about real Rhys being his half-brother is true, and that may be the reason he is fixating on him. After whatever happened to Marienne (which is still under question if the hallucination theory is true) it finally hit him that he is a monster. Joe then started to think about what happened to him and what lead him to all of the shit he has gotten into. He then started to blame his mother for everything he has done and for the monster he has become, which is when he decided to find her. When he found her (the female reporter which had a few close-ups in part 1), he found out she had another son (Rhys), whom she hasnt abandoned and who is a total opposite of himself, which utterly broke him, and that is when he subconciously decided to demonize Rhys in his mind and make him the villain as a last resort of his denial.

[@simeonwindeth1847]

Rhys is real, but Joe is the eat the rich killer.

[@bryanalstoncoxing]

@@vukkicos5688 Rhys being his brother would be really cliche though and would be the Jump The Shark moment for me…Joe just happens to have a brother that’s secretly a Duke? Like what are the odds of that lol

[@vukkicos5688]

@@bryanalstoncoxing I mean, observant people spotted from earlier seasons that it was already hinted his mother had another son. That son being Rhys is probably the most valid explanation as to why Joe is obssessed with Rhys this season and, inn case he really is hallucinating him being the killer, why he chose him over anyone else. Like, Joe is crazy, but all of his craziness has some deeper reason behind it. Fixating on a completely random dude who was an underdog and who rose to fame and fortune is kinda stupid, no? Focusing on his half-brother however, would be in character for Joe, especially considering Rhys is a complete opposite of Joe in both personality and life he had lived (which Joe would be blaming his mother for) given that Joe has every reason to be jealous of him.

[@Aleks-fv6gs]

Rhys is real, Joel just doesn't know him personally

[@Emerald449]

honestly whether it is just Joe having hallucinations or if it is all actually real, hats off to the writers they have kept the story pretty consistent and interesting so far after 4 seasons

[@cinekizzle]

I agree! I know some people don't like every season and that's okay, but I really enjoy each season and I think it's really well written

[@Emerald449]

​@@cinekizzle I completely agree with you, also I like how you constructed the video im sure some time was invested into it, was a joy to watch!

[@jteller7]

The part where they're chained up in the cellar makes a lot of sense to me. Roald discovered that he was the killer and was getting ready to execute him "Most Dangerous Game" style. If he killed Roald and returned to the rest of the group, it would then become quite obvious that he's the killer and they would either kill him or just not believe him. If Roald killed him, he couldn't continue to pursue Kate. So, his solution is to make it appear as if he's a victim too and gain their trust by staging a kidnapping and attempt on both of their lives. Notice how he never tells everyone it was Rhys when he gets out. Another thing that really stood out to me is that Rhys tells Joe "if you did your research, you would know that this place was here and it was used to trap people in the past." It struck me as odd because Joe *always* does his research, so if this cellar was able to be found out via research, he most certainly knew it existed. Joe has been trying to change and convince himself more and more that he's not a killer since season 1, so disassociating makes sense.

[@NukaColaKris]

Fuckkkkkkkk this is good Noice Rhys is definitely suspect for sure

[@KKOOLSKOOL]

Nah u right bro completely didn’t even think of that angle but it definitely makes sense

[@ardagokay2900]

Well I think he means physically research because u can't find a secret cellar or room for buildings like that in online u can't even find its construction plan or smth.

[@jteller7]

@@ardagokay2900 well, he said that if you researched the estate, there were public records of people being locked down there in the building's history.

[@ItzJackFrost14]

I was just thinking and realized that what makes Kate different than the other love interests of Joe is that she is smarter than him, in terms of reading people I guess. She is smart, rich, and put together like Love Quinn but she always asks questions, speculates, and trusts her instinct which Love Quinn lacks. Moments like this really set her apart from his other love interests: * Kate noticed that Joe looked at her underwear so she instantly picked it up * Kate notices Joe dissociates in the middle of a conversation and asks "where did you go?" * Kate notices Joe look at Lucas and the servant intently so then she asks if he knows and Joe's response gave it off (so she knows that joe knows that Lucas likes golden showers) * Kate keeps asking why are you here, like she knew within herself that there is something wrong with Joe * Kate only believes Joe rarely and that is when he says the truth/how he feels

[@gracerose8753]

in the “hello, joe” clip of love in the cage, she was reading rhys’s book. it is all marked up and such, possibly signaling joes obsession with it and how he has studied it so much. love could be telling joe that he is obsessed with rhys and it’s all in his head, using the book as proof.

[@florinho1291]

Anyone else curious about what he told Phoebe that first night he met them?

[@Aleks-fv6gs]

My prediction, End of episode 9 He goes to Rhys for "revenge" then Rhys says "who the hell are you", Episode ends and Episode 10 everything gets revealed about what Joe actually did and why.

[@SevenTwelve-h5u]

The n word prolly

[@theriginalchris8331]

@@SevenTwelve-h5u😭

[@kamirinc]

I’ve been wondering too! I think it’s going to come back somehow but can’t figure out how.

[@mspionage1743]

Well considering how directly after Phoebe was giving him a hand job while straddling him, I think it is safe to say it was not a psycho related statement he made to her.

[@hannahb9249]

I enjoy this theory, but I feel there is more to Nadia than people are noticing. Nadia gave Joe Rhys' book(says she doesn't agree with Rhys running for mayor), explained how murder mysteries work and even told him who the next victim would be. If this theory about Rhys being in Joe's head is real, Nadia could have unintentionally gave his delusions direction but I don't believe that. I just keep thinking about the scene in their class where she referred to the obsession in the book they were studying as being about love and the narrator wanting "to know and to be known." Her tone during this discussion felt like it was more than an opinion. This was right before the news broke about the police receiving the finger. The students are all looking at their phones while Nadia stares for a moment, then the camera shows her do a small cough and grab her phone and Joe glances at her right before he receives a text. I thought it was so weird that they showed that, as if it meant more. Then the next scene shows Joe texting the killer back and forth, the students gossiping about the murder, then Nadia pops up randomly and goes off on them about it. Conveniently, the messages stop after that. When she caught my eye as a suspect, the writer's gave her a cover story and Joe never thought to consider her after. I get she wrote the dead guy a letter (which Joe never read) and it could have looked bad, but I just feel like she's been too conveniently overlooked even though everything she says plays into the story. I don't know what role she plays but I have a feeling she is involved in some way.

[@Sthuthukile]

Also, when the stalker ghosted Joe..she shows up at his place and just a few moments after she leaves, the stalker texts back "we should meet". What I've been doing is paying attention to their conversations, anything that sounds ironic or could be foreshadowing. Joe is often narrating about getting the killer in her very presence. And the way she pops up in random places, yeah.

[@dAaronL5]

I have been waiting for this! I thought she was or had something to do with (even if a small part) with everything. There were so many clues that would lead to her having her hand in this like when she caught Joe coming out of Malcom’s office and said she was just leaving him a note because he didn’t go to his office hours but later says he can’t reply to a text; I just thought that was odd.

[@leilaniz5909]

Agreed. I really hope they don't do a fight club thing.

[@mysticfaint]

Now that Pt2 is out, I can't believe this theory actually turned out to be 100% correct

[@cinekizzle]

that's how good the writing of the show is! they planted the clues so well

[@florinho1291]

Notice how Joe never mentions that Roald pushed him from the window in defence of the accusations made about him killing Gemma.

[@cinekizzle]

yeah that's weird too! But I did believe that happened because Roald was talking to one of the staff members about it, so now I'm just confused lol

[@florinho1291]

@@cinekizzle yeah me too

[@Kingston997]

Omg, after watching season 4 part 2, you got this EXACTLY right hahahaha

[@cinekizzle]

excellent writing by them to have planted all those clues for us!

[@roderick8167]

Yeah I agree as cool and mind-blowing as the twist of Rhys not being real and it being a crazy fight club type of twist of Joe's mind completely snapping to this point , I do feel this theory just creates more questions than answers as you pointed out in this video and I do think it would be better if Rhys was real because it would feel like there is actual stakes for Joe to overcome

[@cinekizzle]

it would be interesting to see how Joe 'recovers' from this episode if he is completely imaging Rhys. but I agree that it would be way better if Rhys is real, especially because Rhys seems to have the upper hand in the trailer for part 2 - and I like seeing Joe suffer and have to work his way out of a tricky situation

[@roderick8167]

@@cinekizzle i know right and I like the theory of Rhys actually being Joe's long lost little brother Jakey better

[@noahyemane4609]

The only thing that I dont get is why rhys downloaded the text app in joe's phone in the first place. I mean he expected for joe to go down for Malcolm murder and only reached out to him when he was surprised joe didn't get caught, piquing his curiosity as to who joe is.

[@joyboy3163]

Thats is fuckin truee

[@footballgirl263]

joe may have let some secrets slip when he was in sundry house as he doesn’t remember what he said to phoebe. he kept telling rhys that they’re alike and maybe rhys asked the right questions to figure out how. I just don’t buy that joe is disassociating

[@footballgirl263]

I see it as more of a hannibal situation

[@followsthestars]

Also, it could have been anyone that was at the Sundry House that night. He was shitfaced drunk and there's one line he says to himself during that scene like "and where's my phone?" Implying he didn't have access to his phone. So, it definitely could have been Rhys if Rhys is real (since he was there) but it also could have been any of them, really. It leaves the possibility open. I also think there's something to the Nadia being involved theory. Not quite sure how yet though...

[@julietoconnor323]

The disassociation wouldn’t make him the victim though. Quite the opposite. It’s because he’s such a psychopath that his mind contorts in this way until he’s finally forced to confront the fact that HE is the monster Maryann, Beck, and Candace said he is. What’s the alternative? He goes from murderer to vigilante and now he’s a good guy? No no no. I think revealing him to himself as the monster is the perfect conclusion to a show that has centered around this man who refused to take responsibility for his actions for three seasons!

[@unofficialbeautyqueen6624]

I was thinking the exact same thing when she mentioned that. It wouldn’t make him seem like a victim at all, just shows the intensity of his psychopathy

[@moptop4355]

I agree. Having Rhys as the “big bad” seemingly relieves joe of all of his sins and further confuses the central focus of this entire series. Joe is not a good a guy and there is no reason we should continue to view him as a reliable narrator or as a vigilante. Even if Rhys turns out to be blackmailing him or even goes on to expose him, it would make this season another version of season 3, with joe meeting his match narrative. Then nothing of interest would happen in this season. I’m not comfortable with the idea that Joe is reasonable guy who kills for the greater good, especially when the show is shown to be pretty self aware and have made it a point to show the contradictions of his actions and his reasoning. Joe dissociating wouldn’t make him a victim as there would be nothing to victimize him for. He has killed and stalked people conscientiously while being completely disingenuous and hypocritical. I would argue that he actually has already shone signs of these traits in prior seasons. The fact that he genuinely still believes he means well and is a good guy is enough to believe that he is not grounded in any reality. While I thoroughly enjoyed the last 3 seasons. Perhaps the show should’ve only been 1 season.

[@malikswanigan8630]

I like this theory a lot actually, and I like how you analyzed opposing evidence as well.

[@cinekizzle]

thanks! it was fun looking at evidence on both sides :)

[@Fireheartgirl]

It’s a cool twist and I do like it, but I hope the interactions with Rhys are real and that everything is real. I think it could be cool for Joe to sort of find a serial killer buddy / enemy. Especially if he becomes the mayor and is powerful with lots of resources. And like you said, the whole dissociation thing makes Joe seem a bit more sympathetic which I don’t like, lmao. Joe is a bad guy and not sympathetic at all. We all know he’s lying to himself. But I do think that could be a fun twist. I wouldn’t be mad about it. I just think I prefer if it’s not the twist.

[@dandylion1313]

quite a few videos exist about this theory but i think this is the best one. good job breaking it down! i love this theory so much

[@cinekizzle]

aw thank you! it was really fun to make this video so I'm glad you liked it!

[@crashcadet851]

Not the Pretty Little Liars reference!! I’m 💀 🤣🤣🤣

[@rinbi]

Girl the way you were SPOT ON

[@cinekizzle]

Just goes to show how great the writing is! They planted all of those clues, they really thought it out and I love that

[@HodajuciParadoks]

I think that he may have actually killed Marian, he did not let her go and after that he snapped maybe he could not accept that and start to hallucinate, the hit guy from Love's father is less likely to help Joe, that is weird, most likely he did not excised. Everything else just fits perfectly that he hallucinate, he has split personality, he is running from himself. He is a monster and he can not accept it, yet.

[@HodajuciParadoks]

If Rhys is real , he could be but he is not working alone, only Kate had opportunities and means to be a mastermind of all. Who knows, they do have a twist for sure, no one reveal the killer in the middle of the season unless there is more to the story down the line.

[@cinekizzle]

Very possible! And as for Kate, it's pretty interesting that right after the killer is texting Joe saying that Joe enjoys killing, they say "I'll show you" and then Kate leaves her house and leads Joe to where he ends up killing the bodyguard. Almost like she set him up.

[@HodajuciParadoks]

@@cinekizzle As they said from the beginning - there is no coincidences in mystery murder cases

[@HodajuciParadoks]

@@cinekizzle Something is very off with Kate. Love was impulsive killer, passion and protective, insane sure, but not cold, calculated like Kate, Kate gives a vibe of a killer that never loved anyone just use people for her own ideals. That is just one of my theories. We will see, maybe we are giving them too much credit ...maybe it is just simple season, Joe hunting Rhys and people dying...that would be boring to be honest, hope they do put some twist, no one gives the mystery truth in the middle of the season. I think this is just part of the truth...Rhys, can be Joe finally having a mental breakdown or Kate is pulling the strings. I do not think Love is alive tho and behind all of this, but who knows..I do not think they would put her in the trailer if they wanted to surprise us. I think she is just a part of Joe personality and his hallusinations.

[@resarious6225]

i rly hope its not a split personality thing because lord that trope grits my teeth 😭

[@ItzJackFrost14]

I honestly hope the theory that he is just a hallucination is not true because, to me, it seems like the most cheesy ass twist ever in You... Also, I have a theory that Kate is actually a killer too but it's only when she switches personalities. This means that Kate has DID (Dissociative identity disorder), and has a murderer personality. Roald (which is Kate's beloved childhood friend) said something about him being able to tolerate her "personality disorder" in that one scene when Joe and Kate were about to get caught having an intimate moment. Also, Kate's other personality might have put Malcolm's ring on his coat when he was sleeping. TBH I'll believe if all of them are murderers because they all got the money and power to hide things. There are so much plot holes in part 1, I hope part 2 explains everything.

[@cinekizzle]

yeah I really hope part 2 makes sense of all the things part 1 has me questioning

[@francinesmith9396]

I think he is imagining Rhys and it is a split off part of his personality. The part that sees himself, more holistically. I also see a hint of this in the way Joe sums up Rhys as "a good man in a cruel world". This imagined Rhys personality part no longer wants to be suppressed or denied, but wants to be seen. Hence the newspapers, the Bodys etc.

[@cinekizzle]

ahh so like, forcing its way out the more that Joe tries to suppress it!

[@DiaperSNiFFER]

@@cinekizzle but how did JOE know about the secret du from below? Also how did JOE get chained 🆙 to a welded cement wall? And how did JOE make it back to the dungeon without being seen!? Ugh it makes sense but doesn’t in some parts

[@mazvitaselemani]

Further supporting the imaginary Rhys theory: - Mariam (or however you spell her name) called Joe a monster and the last thing he said to her was that he would proof her wrong. Which explains why now of all times he has started to dissociate from his mvrdering - Joe and Rhys have very similar backgrounds which explains why Joe would manifest Rhys of all people as his only friend in the group, as someone with a similar mindset as him and as the k1ller. -to further flesh out my previous point, in their first encounter, Rhys said something along the lines of "they're having fun while the rest of the world burns" which was verbatim something that Joe would say. This made Joe look recognise Rhys as someone he could potentially form a friendship with. - one of the themes that were foreshadowed by Nadia was that the whodunit had a political message to it. Since Rhys has been wealthy for most of his maybe late teens to adulthood, I don't find it plausible that he would have such a deep hatred for the rich, that Joe would. - Kate isn't the You this season but Malcolm, Gemma and Simon did die because they had pissed off Joe. Malcom called Marienne a hoe, Simon was making off of someone else's work and Gemma was an elitist bitch who degraded the workers. These what I believe to be the real reason those 3 died. - There were times when Joe got messages with information that the real Rhys couldn't have possibly known unless he was watching him 24/7 to the point where he wouldn't even have time for his political affairs. - Rhys had not been around for the entire get away trip (or maybe most of it, I don't remember) but suddenly he pops up to lock Joe and Roald in the cage and disappears. Yet no one else reported seeing his car or seeing him that day. - These literally started happening when Joe arrived. It's right in your face. If the eat the Rich killer hated the rich that much, why frame Joe? Why not frame, you know, one of the rich?

[@cinekizzle]

that's definitely a good point, if you hate the rich, why would you pin their murders on somebody who is not one of them? especially because Rhys seems to bond a little with Joe before Malcolm's murder - so even after getting to know him and seeing they were very similar, he still was going to pin the murders on him?? that doesn't make sense

[@dv.vfxx1]

remember me when your popular your thumbnails and video editing skills are on another level keep it up!

[@cinekizzle]

Thanks! I try to learn something new about editing with each video I make :)

[@Iden_Elihio_1999]

I have seen pics of them filming and there are pics of Rhys and Joe hugging outside and they seem to be really fond of each other like they just discovered something important about the two of them ....

[@arjunreddy1366]

You were awesome, loved the way you delivered your thoughts. Looking forward eagerly for part 2.

[@cinekizzle]

Thanks! I'm looking forward to it too!

[@thepopslice]

Just another theory for me, Marienne could be behind all of this too. I don’t believe she actually fled on the train. Also I feel some type of way about Nadia. Can’t pop my finger on that. She’s the only reoccurring student with a personality and substance to Joe? Why is this? Why just her? Maybe Rhys, Marieanne & Nadia are secretly plotting together. It’s funny how the trio represent the 3 characteristics associated with Joe. Marieanne: The forbidden love. Rhys: The murder and Nadia: The sleuth. Regardless, I can not wait for Joe to get his just deserts. Long time coming.

[@asiajohnson6191]

Yes. I don't get why Marianne just fled then Joe texted it's done.

[@danielzitnik4247]

Your videos on You are wonderful and I'm looking forward to seeing more and I'm excited for part 2 tomorrow

[@cinekizzle]

thank you! I hope you had a good time watching part 2, I know I did!

[@aspiringwayfarer]

I agree with soo many of your points at the end there!! i've watched part 2 now, and I didn't love the reveal...

[@SuperDankBadger]

I like this theory. I also love the theory that it’s actually Phoebe. Someone posted elsewhere their breakdown that made a TON of sense. So now I’m hoping it’s actually her

[@florinho1291]

do you have a link with that breakdown

[@Iden_Elihio_1999]

6:17 YES I KNOW !!! I Also caught that look Gemma gave like people don't seem to notice ....

[@mspionage1743]

I agree. The blackouts and the lack of a rifle butt bruise on his face pretty much assures this theory as being correct in my eyes.

[@creditsong7369]

Honestly, I hope this theory is true because it would turn it from an okay season to an amazing season. The series really threw me off by revealing Rhys as the killer halfway through the season, which makes me assume there is another (potentially more interesting) twist in the second half. This twist could really cement this season and put it on the same level as the last three. But, in reality, I don't believe that the theory is true. I wish it was, but I don't think that's the direction the writers are going for. It seems much more like a "Dexter" scenario where they're creating a new serial killer to be in opposition to the MC. But those are just my thoughts!

[@cinekizzle]

I think I would prefer Rhys to be real but if this theory is true, I'm sure I'll still enjoy part 2 a lot. Which ever way they take the story, I believe it will be a really good second half because they've made such a great show so far (in my opinion)

[@Ali-po9le]

If that is true and they rlly wanna pull a dexter they could even have rhys be his moms other son, his younger half brother who he saw once. He even mentions in his book having a single mom and having a rough upbringing very similar to joes.

[@creditsong7369]

@@Ali-po9le woah that would be so cool. And very Dexter haha

[@sayejutsu-6009]

@@Ali-po9le I honestly was thinking about this

[@jillm9165]

this is such a well done video!! i loved your joe body count vid

[@cinekizzle]

thank you! :)

[@cappylady1]

The other supporting evidence is the whole story roald gives explaining all the unalivings joe did accusing him of them all the way they show the clips makes complete sense that it was joe all along but at that time we’re still thinking it’s someone else but that may have been the writers clue that it was in fact joe tbh I don’t want it to be joe bc I’m kinda rooting for him as the protagonist this season

[@cinekizzle]

Yeah like, the joke is on us because they literally showed us Joe committing the murders but we're still believing his (extremely unreliable) perspective lol

[@cappylady1]

@@cinekizzle yes!! I’m glad you got what I was referring to lol yes exactly !!

[@Keldon334]

See my theory differs a little bit, I believe Joe didn’t start hallucinating Rhys etc. up until he got pushed out of that window by Roald. I believe he suffered a concussion or some sort of brain damage after getting pushed out the window and now after making it back to London he’s starting to feel the effects of it through hallucinations like Rhys and other people from his past like Love when he’s alone, but I definitely think Rhys is still the eat the rich killer not Joe.

[@cinekizzle]

that does make quite a bit of sense!

[@sgtjaffa624]

I think the fact that Joe reads both texts in voice over only strengths the theory more, also the way the appear they're almost like thought balloons.

[@danabubakar1616]

This theory makes sense and it’ll make this season better in my opinion. One reason I’m convinced this theory is true is the fact that Rhys announces his run for mayor even after he’s revealed himself to Joe as the killer

[@alicjasosnowska5448]

It seems a little like Sherlock and Moriarty. Joe calls him YOU, and I think the only you's were the love interests. It does not have to be a love story but rather a complicated one. I really like the kinda ship-ish vibe. It is, after all, a relationship, like Joe said. Also, it is too easy to figure out that the "killer Rhys" is an imagination. It almost seems boring, for me, at least. It should not be Fight Club, but Sherlock's The Reichenbach Fall. Like in the Fall, we question if there is a Moriarty. Did Sherlock really just invent the criminal, or is Moriarty real? Again, like Rhys and Moriarty, Joe and Sherlock share similar characteristics. I know that Joe is not a hero, but Sherlock being a highly functioning sociopath, seems to fit Joe just right. He is very observant, and I believe Kate referenced Sherlock Holmes calling him Sherlock. It almost looks like they are pulling a David Fincher (Gone Girl reference in the second season).

[@cinekizzle]

yes, Kate made multiple "detective" and "sherlock' references throughout the first 5 episodes! I know very little about Sherlock/Moriarty but from what I do know plus what you've explained, I can totally see the parallels!

[@elementalcatplays6463]

For your questions 1. 2. 4. Seems against getting away with it however, he might’ve cuffed himself in the basement to make himself look like a victim to give himself some kind of alibi and if I was locked in a burning basement I would very much doubt the guy locked in their with me who also helped me escape wouldn’t be the killer, but you do bring up some very good points for and against this theory

[@vaibhavnair7673]

I am quite perplexed at the decision to split the season into two parts. Since part 2 is being released roughly 2 weeks after part 1, the audience would be able to go through various theories and anticipate what's going to happen next. Honestly, that would make it less enjoyable. Its going to be more difficult for the writers to suprise us.

[@cinekizzle]

unless they're tricking us, and they crafted part 1 to make us think of this theory and they're going to switch it up in part 2 to surprise us with something different! we'll just have to wait and see I guess

[@astero5599]

ok so I think that his last kill this season will be Kate. a while ago while they were filming i saw some fans on tiktok posting their clips of the shooting that they sneakily shot and there was this very specific one of joe standing over a dead girl on a sidewalk of some sort. it was captioned ‘joes last kill of season 4’ i think its kate.

[@shaniquawhitfield94]

I'm pretty sure he is imagining Rhys. The trailer for part 2 confirms it to the bone. I dont feel Gemma looked at him upon his exit...was set up exactly like a person noticing something from the corner of their eye in a horror movie (where the thing moving has to do with a ghost)

[@AashishDost]

Can u predict my future too?😅

[@EntrEsprit]

My assumption about Joe killing Simon is those 2 short scenes when he runs upstairs and sees Simon laying dead, that could be the moment when he killed Simon, but they edited it the other way so we could never suspect Joe as we literally see him being outside the building. Same goes for Gemma's murder, we never see what happens before Joe visits Rhoald's room, so he had all the time needed to kill her, and then the timeline goes as shown.

[@cinekizzle]

True, it wouldn't be the first time they tricked us like that!

[@abstractmedia8379]

@@cinekizzle Joe had a white undershirt right?

[@Bangaly16kaba]

I literally don’t remember Rhys ever talking to anyone else while joe was physically there also I think he was obsessed with his boook so he sees him as a real person helping him feel a little bit normal amongst those rich ppl

[@spideyfan1278]

Yeah, I noticed that. That’s a pretty much good hint and that whenever Rhys talks to Joe, they’re never shown interacting with other people. Also when Rhys asked Joe during the group dinner if he was all right and Joe responded that he’s fine, Adam said “what was that?” As if he thought he was talking to him.

[@Demii739]

I think he’s real. The scene where all of them are Pheobes penthouse and they’re talking about Simon’s death. Rhys said “I need some air” he put down his glass and the girl looked at him putting down his glass on the table.

[@cinekizzle]

Yup! Gemma seems to know he's there in that scene!

[@einahsirro1488]

I suppose the girl's reaction could also be in Joe's head.

[@thiagoandrew588]

@@einahsirro1488 But if we were to suppose that, everything we saw till this point could not even be reality.

[@Sketch_Study]

I was legitimately thinking this once the texts started, buuuuut I don’t think they’d actually do it. Something just feels a lil off for it to just be dissociation. Like joe always has this idea of protecting be his motive. Sure the first one could be written off from being totally wasted, but why kill the others? But hey maybe his resentment to Love and her nepotism manifested into this motive for a separate identity

[@Tsarevena]

When Joe and Rys have a drink at the bar, Rys "splits" the drink with Joe. There is a promo pic that shows Joe with his "stalker hat" on and a mirror image in a door window of Joe as Jonathan Moore. Both of these details could be subtle hints to a dissociative identity.

[@cinekizzle]

Ooh I'll have to find that promo image, I haven't seen that yet!

[@catherinegarcia6395]

This theory is so obvious for a lot of fans, the writers must have intentionally written this to make it appear that Rhys isn't real and then they will shock us with a wilder twist in part 2.

[@cinekizzle]

maybe! my mom (who had to listen to my talk about this show nonstop) suggested that maybe netflix planted the theory to get us all speculating about it and then it's going to be something different in the second half lol

[@Sthuthukile]

But where did Joe keep Marcus's finger that even he couldn't find it? And also send it to the authorities to blackmail himself, it doesn't make sense. And remember how the stalker planted a ring on him while he was following Kate? It's not a perfect theory.

[@elementalcatplays6463]

I really hope so cause I predicted it was rhys after the group firsts meets up after Malcolm died and this would be a twist I’d be into

[@PalmtreePokemon]

Only bit I don’t get using this theory is when joe is chained up in the 5th episode how does the fire get set off is Rhys isn’t there? Joe wouldn’t be able to start a fire if he couldn’t move?

[@woodswitchprints]

We can't really trust the narrative, though. We've only seen what Joe has pictured in his head.

[@ultimatemediocreplayer9730]

Yup you were right 😬😬

[@xHarlequin]

I want this theory to be real. I’d sooner believe that Joe has lost his mind rather than him somehow running into serial killers all the time lol. Joe has always hated who he is and what he’s done, every season since S1 is him trying to do better but he can’t. Dissociating just makes sense at this point

[@astero5599]

definitely agree. its too much of a coincidence that joe just happens to meet so many serial killers lol

[@dAaronL5]

Although I do believe this theory to be true, I also had a bunch of question that would suggest it isn’t. Thank you for making a video that looks at both sides as it is something I haven’t seen yet and have been looking for!

[@cinekizzle]

Thanks for watching! It was a fun video to make!

[@jqrja]

The biggest thing that made me think it's not Rhys is the fact that the killer on Evanesce said "Brown's your color" - the American spelling. In a season with mostly British characters, I instantly thought it would narrow it down to one of the few American characters. The You account even tweeted the screenshot of the "Brown's your color" text before the season aired. If it turns out that Rhys (or another Brit for that matter) is in fact the killer I'll be so annoyed because why would they say color 😭 and why wouldn't Joe pick up on this? Maybe it's just me being an annoyed Brit lol

[@cinekizzle]

a few people have caught this so you might be on to something! some things like this make me wonder - is it a clue or an oversight? lol

[@mazvitaselemani]

Girl, that Christmas tree it's almost March😭😭😭

[@cinekizzle]

loll, it's been there since December 2020 :p it'll probably be there forever tbh

[@deeplyconcerned9306]

I think both possibilities are cool honestly, even if a little unoriginal

[@dexplays3298]

Then who would lock up Joe and that other guy in the chamber with their hands cuffed, while burning the whole mansion on fire?

[@cinekizzle]

yes, good question!

[@thiagoandrew588]

I wouldn't mind Joe hallucinating if the season wasn't cut in 2 parts. Now that we have had a lot of time to think about the small details I feel like this theorie is too good and probably spoiled the plot twist for me. This most likely wouldn't happen if they had fully released the episodes because I would have binged watched the series in just a couple of days. Therefore I hope Rhys is indeed the killer and the show can surprise me in some way.

[@followsthestars]

THIS. Agree with you 100%

[@njovie13]

If this theory is true then there will be a lot of plotholes and a lot stuff won’t make sense. It would be better if Rhys is really just the main antagonist (or someone else), in this case Joe would have real rival and enemy than just his self.

[@helenawoods]

love your videos! :) you're awesome!

[@cinekizzle]

Aw thank you so much!!

[@chlolunaa]

I think : Rhys is a real person that he did meet, but joe is the real k1ller ,the person texting however is either ellie or marianne

[@florinho1291]

What I thought at the beginning (until like ep 4/5) and what I thought would have been a cool twist would have been if Phoebe, the sweet bubbly innocent party girl, was the stalker. That would explain why she invited him to everything

[@cinekizzle]

Yeah I've seen a few reddit posts that suspect Phoebe might be involved in some way! She did invite him around a lot, and you have to wonder what he said to her that first night at Sundry House.

[@ericgonser1544]

I love your video and you brought up all the points I think on. I think he is in his head. I hope he is real but I think it's Joe for his misguided love for Kate. The show also showed us clips of Joe doing the killings when she accused him of being the killer. If he wasn't the killer it was a little weird for the show to have her say what she thinks he did and have a clip play of him doing the killings. Almost like they were hinting it was actually Joe all along.

[@cinekizzle]

yeah it's like we were supposed to believe it was just an imagining of what the kills would have looked like but actually it was a flashback! and he does look very zoned out in them, like he's in zombie murderer mode lol

[@florinho1291]

last episode of the season 4x 10 is called "The Death of Jonathan Moore.. could this be related with this teory?

[@cinekizzle]

oh interesting! yeah I wonder what that could mean

[@astero5599]

are the episode titles released?

[@florinho1291]

@@astero5599 yea you can search on google

[@karlijnb94]

Three other things I noticed: In the first episode Joe says "Never again. No love. No people. Just books." Good way to introduce an obsession with a book. He tells Kate it works for him to "burn things down", what's exactly what happens to the castle and "there are no coincidences". I think he convinces himself he's not the murderer, to proof this to Marianne. Something else: anybody else thinking the student didn't have a relationship with Malcolm and the letter might contain other important information? Her being not a fan of rich white men, they just don't seem a match.

[@cinekizzle]

omg the book comment makes so much sense! good catch

[@DJLadyDzyre]

I honestly believe that RHYS is the YOU 😩

[@florinho1291]

I also reckon that if this theory is legit, I don't think Gemma was killed by Joe. One, I think Joe was pretty unconscious when she was killed, and the second thing is that Gemma was killed differently. Her throat was slit whereas Simon and Malcolm were stabbed.

[@cinekizzle]

yeah the different method is interesting. it reminded me of Love honestly

[@christinawhite5992]

If rhys really was the killer he could have been hiding in the castle the whole time waiting for the right moment to show himself

[@wendyli6238]

Was super confused watching this just now like… theory?? Thats what happened!! And i realized you posted this before pt 2 came out omg I thought this was going to be a theory about how reese was actually real and really the murderer and making joe Think he was hallucinating hahaha (which makes less sense for the story but i was intrigued)

[@cinekizzle]

aw yeah sorry, this video became a bit outdated once part 2 came out lol but I like what you thought! some people thought (for a second) after Joe killed the real Rhys and imaginary Rhys walked up behind him, that they were actually twins. so I could imagine a theory where they were twins, Joe killed Rhys' twin thinking it was Rhys, and the real Rhys then twisted the situation to gaslight Joe into blaming blame for the murders. as if 'fight club twist' and 'secret twin twist' had a baby lol

[@danielzitnik4247]

As for the theory, it's definitely the biggest question looming in part 2. There's a lot of unanswered questions right now, so I think the only way to wrap them up in a reasonable way is for Joe to be the killer. He's got some sort of split personality thing going on. Joe is not a reliable narrator. He has hidden things from us before, like how he met Love. I think we're in for at least 1 more Marienne flashback and some reveal about her. We haven't seen Joe get over one of his obsessions without landing them first and he didn't get to be with Marienne. Perhaps he killed Marienne and that caused the split personality. Maybe one personality is into Kate while his alter ego is into Marienne? Who knows. I do think it's unlikely Rhys is the killer for all the reasons you mentioned. Plus, how would he have time for all of it? He's a famous author who's running for mayor of LONDON. No way he'd have all that free time to stalk Joe and set all this up. Unless he has an accomplice or accomplices? Plus, what a coincidence it would be that Joe shows up in a new town the same time another killer starts killing people Joe has met? Very unlikely. Joe has to be the killer for the story to make sense IMO

[@cinekizzle]

guess we'll find out today because part 2 is out now!!!

[@mariaskabardonis8353]

Good analysis I am in the middle that joe made a imaginary version of Rhys or Rhys is really there will see I am along for the ride

[@sandram2974]

Love the recaps and theories! 😄

[@cinekizzle]

Yay, thank you!

[@monasevilla]

I believe this theory 1000%!!! It makes so much sense

[@astero5599]

just found some evidence. I did some google fishing to see if there were any famous historical or literary Jonathan Moores. Didn't find much except.... .. A recent author, same name, (book title: The Poison Artist) and the synopsis is basically an absinthe trip where the main character has to solve serial murders and is following clues provided by a mysterious character who (book spoiler!) turns out to be a hallucination. Joe drinks absinthe in the first episode prior to the first murder. It's tenuous, but absinthe as a plot device doesn't seem like a common trope.

[@cinekizzle]

oh yes I read about this on reddit! but I do wonder if it could be a clue or a misdirect - the show likes to trick us sometimes

[@jarreddomingo1068]

WTF this is so true

[@cinekizzle]

when Joe and Rhys were going through the reality of what happened in previous episodes, I was just sitting here like "yeahh I know we figured this out already" lol

[@tecktonic88]

Forgot to mention that Roald was going to execute Joe until Rhys showed up.

[@carlito087]

You hit it right on the head

[@cinekizzle]

all thanks to the great writing! they planted all the clues for us

[@katewardd6081]

I thought either joe killed rhys before anyone else and then assumed his identity in his dissociation bc of their similar backstories. Or Rhys is real but has no idea who he is and joe desperately wants to believe his own childhood (maybe subconsciously) left him no choice but to be who he is. He wants to project that on to Rhys as well to the point of blacking out to “become Rhys” when he kills. I think he genuinely WANTS to be changed but his compulsions drive him more.

[@Iden_Elihio_1999]

Bro Hell NAH I WANT RHYS TO BE JOE'S HALF BROTHER !!!! 8:51 YES MAN 🔥🔥🔥 IMAGINE JOE ACTUALLY FINDING A TRUE BOND BROTHER/ FRIEND FOR ONCE !!!!!

[@Iden_Elihio_1999]

8:50 Girl is like me bro ... Ed Speelers is now my new obsession ..... Hello you .......

[@mcgokoro6343]

We are in the same page

[@quinnpile2995]

ye completely as the seasons 1 to 4 every season Joe is like oh i want to be better this is not who i am anymore and he is a widow so..... and Love Quinn i personally think shes dead and that her ghost may sort of confront Joe for who he is and show him that he doesn't really know Joe i think this might be the last season of you because Joe is completely off the rails i feel that he just get's crazier. And i think Rhys is real but Joe hasn't spoken to him and doesn't actually know him personally.

[@danielshipton4714]

A great theory, but can’t help, but be distracted by the little Christmas tree? 👍🏻🎄😊

[@cinekizzle]

lol, I put it there after Christmas 2020 and haven't moved it since

[@danielshipton4714]

@@cinekizzle oh lol that’s cute ☺️ but yeah I really enjoy the theory. 🙂

[@cinekizzle]

@@danielshipton4714 thanks, I'm glad you watched!

[@simeonwindeth1847]

Joe is a victim in his own mind, it's been the theme from season 1 till now.

[@astero5599]

also what could have triggered the mental break from joe is the knowledge that he killed marienne. in the past everyone hes killed he had justification for and their death didnt harm good people. the only person hes killed in the past that he judged as a good person was beck and that was because 1. her death disproportionately effects no one but herself and 2. if he didnt she would go to the authorities and she knew who he was killing marienne was ultimately something that was not necessary and the big thing here is killing her puts a CHILD in foster care; orphans a child. that could be revealed to be the thing that finally made him crack considering his affinity towards protecting children. knowing that he destroyed an innocent young life could be heartbreaking, we see a similar break in joes psyche in s2 when he thought he killed delilah. he was not as concerned with the act itself as delilah knew who he was but the knowledge that he destroyed ellies life is what made him mentally break and ready to turn himself into authorities. here i think something similar is happening except instead of allowing him to fall into depression like in s2 his brain is doing mental gymnastics to keep that from happening- keep him from being compromised as what happened in s2 and caused the whole plot of s3

[@cinekizzle]

yeah you make a really good point! it's interesting how Joe wants to protect kids but so far he's kinda hurt all the kids he's tried to protect. Paco will definitely be traumatized by witnessing the murder of Ron (even if he and his mom are now safe), and Ellie had to run away and live on her own, his own son was abandoned and will grow up to read the news that his mother was a monster, and Juliette could be orphaned if Joe turns out to have killed Marienne. AND it looks like Nadia (not a kid, but still a young adult) might be in danger or run into trouble in part 2

[@astero5599]

@@cinekizzle definitely. but in joes eyes it has never really been ‘his’ fault. ron’s death was justified and s1 joe saw it as a lesson for paco more than anything else. in joes eyes it was more loves fault than his

[@ovoxmark]

My thing is how could he have possibly killed Gemma when Roald pushed him out the window. He wasn’t unconscious! Then he heard the scream and rushed to see where Kate was! Also Gemma mentioned that Rhys was not coming to the estate! I WANT JOE TO SETTLE DOWN WITH KATE FOR GOOD☺️

[@unofficialbeautyqueen6624]

Why do you want the serial killer to settle down and get a happy ending? 😂

[@florinho1291]

i want joe to end with kate but its impossible i bet she will die this season

[@woodswitchprints]

It's entirely possible he killed Gemma before he went to Roald's room. He actually might have been trying to plant evidence there. We can't trust the timeline.

[@adityanamdeo0901]

Does anyone find Rhys(Ed speleers) and Simon Baker(from mentalist) look alikes? I was wondering why he looks familiar and realised he looks like simon Baker with short hair

[@zaippiaz]

You're a genius+!!!!!

[@isaiahmercado_]

I think Joe is disassociating because we've seen his hallucinations throughout the series. I don't think Rhys is the killer & maybe it's possible Joe isn't either. How did Joe get chained in episode 5? This season was different but still exciting.

[@cinekizzle]

He has hallucinated quite a bit, and it looks like he's going to hallucinate more in part 2 (seeing Love)

[@quirogatnonerrat3214]

I am certain Joe will die at the end of season 4 and there will be no killer responsible for his death, but himself. I say that judging by what he said in this last interviews about it and that he can't spoil it, but he already have us clues.

[@ech185]

I hope Love never die and she came back to hunt him down. Because she was the only one that is Joes equal.

[@thisisanaussiegal3590]

It doesn't explain his past behaviour unless Rhys is an identity that came out DUE to the trauma of his past killing

[@TFR-60]

Rhys is Joes half brother

[@lexemulonga2664]

The other people talk about Rhys. It's safe to say his real

[@fantwan]

spot on

[@catar8270]

Love the pll paralel

[@eliscore]

I think he killed Marianne and this is when his mind broke. He wanted to proves he's good so his mind fractured

[@cinekizzle]

that would be a good reason for his mind to break!

[@StrikerBot]

I read a crazy theory that Love is actually alive and is keeping Joe in comma like state. The events of season 4 is nothing but Joe's imagination and in part 2 we will see Joe coming back to reality 🥴🥴

[@ech185]

I really hope Love some how is alive too because she is such a great character and is so far the only true equal to Joe.

[@StrikerBot]

@@ech185 yup..without her it feels like Joe is carrying the show alone.