Is Serena the female tennis GOAT?! JWill & Mad Dog DEBATE 🔥 | First Take

[@The_IcemaN_723]

Finally, a debate where both sides were reasonable in their opinions, and didn't attack each other.

[@rcvillapando]

Amen to that.

[@worldisfilledb]

Oh grow a pair

[@worldisfilledb]

Lol

[@jamaldaniels7402]

That actually was a good debate

[@jonathanvillegas7659]

It was refreshing

[@RickyTanTriads]

Regardless of Mad Dog's opinions, his knowledge of sports history across multiple sports is impressive.

[@Will-st4sy]

Mad Dog is the voice of white supremacy basically allowed to be open with it. Typical ESPN

[@supreme2818]

Jay williams ain't no anything about tennis. Mad dog has great knowledge of sports. Martina is the goat c'mon 59 to 39 titles of Serena

[@Will-st4sy]

@@supreme2818 More Grand Slams the only title that matters. And was far more dominant

[@Cardskingdom21]

The guy said cooper kupp is a HOF if he retired right now and was shaming micheal Thomas. Dude is an idiot and clearly racially motivated. He shits on Lamar, Kyler, Serena and MT. Yet he loves kupp, graf and Martina. Lol

[@Whatsthe_411]

Totally agree. Mad Dog is a walking encyclopedia and knows his stuff. Steffie Graff was no joke in her era and well as Martina but I would have love to see Serena go against them. I think she would have a chance to take some wins. They are all great but we will never know who is the goat IMHO

[@lk5388]

Its undeniable. Serena is great. Martina and Graff were both great, but Serena pretty much slayed all her competition in her prime.

[@Madisonn608]

Graf won more and was more dominant and played for less time. She also had a year with all four majors+gold medal. She has everything on Serena but the one grand slam. If u want to say that’s the difference then Margaret court is the goat

[@PravoslavniVitez]

- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history) - Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record) - Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record) - Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history) - Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history) - Steffi won way more titles than Serena - Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena - Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena - Steffi had a higher peak than Serena - Steffi had better competition than Serena - Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.

[@Fraudkovic]

Casual black American

[@rileymorgan2261]

graf was more dominate

[@DuckDaPhillyFan]

Agreed

[@vsha89]

This was one of the better debates I've seen on this show. No yelling, no insulting, both sides respecting each others opinions and providing counter arguments

[@lemonman823]

cuz they dont care

[@KarlPostMalone]

Ryan Clark put him on notice

[@kofi7777]

So turning around in a circle is showing respect.

[@pimpnamedslickback7780]

Mad dog is how sports shows used to be. You had to have an array of knowledge. Not just I’m a football guy or I’m a basketball or baseball guy

[@sukhrajsinghnahal]

Yeah these new guys think they know everything are better than the “old media “

[@shawnsmith9307]

@@sukhrajsinghnahal I mean they do. sports and humans evolve to say somebody in the 60's is better in sorts then somebody modern day is crazy. But let's use your debate say a regular doctor who has to study everything about the human body would they know more about the brain then a brain surgeon

[@back2back379]

@@shawnsmith9307 the debate isn't really about who's "better," it's about who's "greater." Max brings this up a lot, but for example plenty of sprinters can run faster than Jesse Owens now, they're "better," but they're most certainly not "greater."

[@shawnsmith9307]

@@back2back379 yeah he is greater because the impact he he had especially around that time and he also set a precedent so yeah I get that. Russo just doesn't argue that, he literally think they are better

[@martino8725]

Dude a clown 🤡 don't know sports at all

[@madmex9327]

The end was perfect "that's all hypothetical" "Isn't that what we're doing here"😅🤣🤣🤣

[@deenyce2216]

He got him with that one lol

[@jonathanfrancis7608]

And that's why debating athletes from different eras is really stupid. Most sports are played very differently nowadays due to the rule changes, equipment etc. There's too many variables, with no common point of reference and it ultimately becomes a case of comparing apples and oranges. Just appreciate the athletes who are playing today and stop comparing them to dudes who played some 20,30,40 years back.

[@jammaroni]

I like how Mad Dog was in this argument because even though he doesn't think Serena is the GOAT, he doesn't think that it's crazy for other people to put her there. He just prefers the others more which I can respect. If this was about LeBron or another sport, he would think they were crazy.

[@jaradphillips6119]

For me being a black kid watching sports Venus & Serena made me wanna watch tennis men or women if it wasn’t for them I wouldn’t have given tennis a second thought & to see what they had to overcome being black women in a pro dominantly white sport was nothing short of magnificent. For me SERENA is the greatest tennis player I’ve ever seen!!!

[@justincherrier8897]

Great comment, nice to see she had such a great influence on your life. And for that I think she not only best female, but best all time. First tennis player that comes to mind is her, and will always be her

[@benjamind7639]

Same!!!

[@TRINI818]

Greatest you seen to the greatest of all timel Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic and Pete Sampras..etc

[@jonathanwatson1908]

I've become a Serena AND Venus fan. What they have done is something that can't be quantified. She's inspired others to follow her footsteps. When she is on TV I look to watch her and Venus. When I think of tennis, I think of Serena and then Venus

[@robinsss]

@@jonathanwatson1908 Serena i thought he had already retired

[@treydub7220]

This man just said Venus Williams isn't a top 10 player of all time lmao! 🙄 you do realize if serens Williams doesn't exist Venus Williams would have at least 4 more grand slams wins?

[@stephenchisadza4975]

Dismissed everything he said after that

[@kingtutankhamun402]

Also Serena is the highest earner & Venus is the second highest earner in the history of women's tennis. Venus' bank account is definitely top 2 of all time

[@stinoooee.j5899]

what a shot argument, if Nadal doesn’t exist Federer would have 10 more grand slams 😂😂😂😂

[@hiwayman981]

"If" is a very big word...

[@db-hj9cu]

@@stinoooee.j5899 no it's not a shot argument because maddog is arguing the level of competition so what you're saying actually makes 0 sense

[@natutz]

Mad Dog is legit historian! He even knows who built the pyramid!

[@moalston4203]

😂😂 now that is funny Black historians advance

[@jasonlewis460]

@@moalston4203 Sorry it was a white alien who build the pyramids

[@moalston4203]

@@jasonlewis460 nope not all

[@jasonlewis460]

@@moalston4203 Trust bro, there is more evidence that its true

[@TheAmazingHow]

Not a fan of Jay but this is kinda unfair to him. He doesn't know about anything Mad Dogg is saying here

[@back2back379]

that's why he brought up the Jordan thing, to try to bring the conversation to something he knows more about.

[@soda8736]

Exactly that why Jay just went to the race card..

[@Thegigachad248]

Jay is a clown that needs to stick to basketball.

[@KSABSS]

@@soda8736 what are you talking about

[@soda8736]

@@KSABSS jay was making it about race , but main difference is the number of lawsuits. 1 vs 24

[@dontdoit3976]

Mad Dog actually made a great argument. I do think he is under-rating some of the current players.

[@jasonlewis460]

No because they have not retired. Women Tennis right now is not consistent. So no debate needed. Maybe Ash Barty because she retired.

[@darrylbonner2380]

I don't think so, his argument was that Serena wouldn't have won as much if she was playing with them but doesn't bring up that they for sure wouldn't have won that many if they had to go up against either of the Williams sister defiantly serena

[@conradchandler508]

Mad Dog is right Late 80-90 were all the greats just has the 201o' has the all time greats in men

[@jcsuperstar4646]

No underating these women of today. Inconsistent with zero fight in them.

[@back2back379]

I'm shocked Molly didn't start up about "why say female?" after asking the question herself.

[@moalston4203]

Cause she knows

[@krisanthony5228]

You just wanna be mad about anything

[@noicemate9111]

J will the one being a cornball here, not Molly. She be getting too much hate

[@nerffej]

it's stupid comparing female athletes to male athletes. especially in something power and speed based like tennis. stop reaching.

[@romelmurdock4187]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@aardvarmario]

He needs someone with the knowledge of tennis to counter him. The depth in women's tennis over the past two decades is unparalleled historically. Those previous all-time greats didn't generally have to play tough early round matches. There were only ever a handful of players who could win a major. Whereas, during Serena's era there were always dozens of players capable of knocking out the top players. And the late 90s early 2000s period was a murderer's row of players like Hingis, Davenport, Seles, the Belgians, Sharapova and the Russians, etc. Then she had to face down multiple new generations.

[@aardvarmario]

@@VictorVonDoom. The women's game hasn't been poor. It has been characterized by parity. The overall athleticism and skill on tour is far beyond what existed prior to the sisters. Dominating is exceedingly difficult.

[@hiwayman981]

@@aardvarmario Agree, and that's owing largely to the onslaught of the "power" game in tennis, particularly among the women's game.

[@aardvarmario]

@@hiwayman981 I believe Mary Carrillo called it Big Babe tennis. I will always remember the 2005 Wimbledon semi-final between Venus and Sharapova. The incredible ball striking in that match really made me aware the sport had become something completely different.

[@jestoril75]

and that is the most venerable and valid argument that completely obliterates mad dog’s attempt to devalue serena. even the player that he picked, martina navratilova concedes that serena is the best tennis player all time in her own comments and she was a skeptic early of serena.

[@odibua9107]

Exactly. Monica Seles was spanking Graff before the stabbing, and she is not on Serena's level. Serena would have blown threw them. She would have given them the Sharapova treatment (approximately).

[@alexgray9959]

You can’t take away majors from Serena by putting her in an era with the other two greatest and then not take away any from them. There’s not unlimited majors to win so clearly if all 3 played in the same era, all 3 would have lost numbers in their total majors

[@Fraudkovic]

Graf won 22/54 bruh that's the highest win conversion rate ever in women's tennis. The next best is 11-1 by some dude from the black and white era. Not to mention she retired at 30. She's like jordan

[@colinforsecs3393]

Martina won 20 more singles and doubles..It couldn't be more obvious she's the greatest of all time.

[@Fraudkovic]

@@colinforsecs3393 doubles doesn't count in the goat argument brother . Your partner is doing half the work it's an entirely different discussion . You can argue she's the doubles goat but graf is the singles goat.

[@colinforsecs3393]

@@Fraudkovic She's overall goat dude..

[@colinforsecs3393]

@@Fraudkovic She was 5-4 vs Graf, their very last match Martina was much older and still beat her. Graf was awesome, but history is history

[@romaronaldo2409]

I feel like when we call Jordan, Tiger or Tom the greatest of all time in their respective sports, we refer to a lot of the circumstances they faced to rise up to the challenges of their times, or the off-field/course/court ripples they created. While Graf and Navratilova were fantastic tennis players, we wouldn't even be talking about women's tennis today without Serena and Venus' impact off the tennis court. The part that I think Mad Dog gets too caught up in is being politically neutral, by refering to on-court/field issues only; however, the reason he loves Cousy and Jordan and Co is that they created so many avenues for their future successors. They forged a path (eg. Working with a black man in Bill Russell as his leader to win some 750 titles, or creating a shoe line that allows ordinary folk to connect with NBA players in style) that others can admire or walk on, and that's precisely what Serena's done.

[@hiwayman981]

Agree with both Williams sister's trailblazing off-court, but especially Serena given her magnanimous career. Lest we forget however another GOAT-contender, Billie Jean King's contributions in that area as well; her application of Title IX into (womens') sports, the formation of the WTA, and WTT, just to name a few. And what Navratilova did during her early career, defecting from an eastern-bloc country at a time in which doing so may well have gotten her assassinated by her own government, cannot be overlooked or slighted in light of the more recent accomplishments of the aforementioned American siblings. As well, Martina became a pioneer for modern women's tennis ala Ivan Lendl; her diet, workout/cross-training regimen, and preternatural skill with the tennis racquet asked questions of her opponents in the 1980's that hadn't been posed before in the sport. Some of her achievements, stats, and titles remain peerless to this day; as such, she's definitely my GOAT pick, as much as she is Mad Dog's, seemingly anyway.

[@romaronaldo2409]

@Joseph fair enough. All one can indulge in is relative comparisons between athletes and eras, and I'd say the impact Serena, specifically had, was comparable to say Bird, Magic, Bonds or Jordan. Had a lot to do with reviving audience interest in the sport. Again, fair point.

[@quentincrisp6933]

Jordan and Tiger are debatable! There was Russell, KAJ, Chamberlain, Magic and the Golden Bear who is arguably the greatest golfer ever! What isn't debatable in G.O.A.T. status is Tom Brady! Full stop!

[@quentincrisp6933]

@Heg Dog Brady is the greatest & most accomplished N.F.L. player all time! So if you're starting a team you're going to select a LB over the most important position on the field?😂🤔 Come on man!

[@victoradeyeye5687]

Greatest of all time is talking about your play, how you faired against your contemporary. It doesn't matter what your off-court influence is

[@Go_Wit_Da_Flow]

Mad Dog's been getting a lot of hate lately, but I honestly love listening to him talk about the history of just about every sport. He may get some takes wrong, but in this debate he destroyed J Will.

[@noicemate9111]

I just hate how he does the corny walk off thing once mad dogg initially answered the question. Like bruh only Stephen a can do that the right way😂

[@rldeuce8829]

I think Serena is the GOAT. But mad dog made a good argument. He usually way off

[@cmambafit1]

He did make valid points

[@Dizzy160]

And he said it like 50 times you can debate if Serena can be number one meaning it's either or

[@Madisonn608]

Ever heard of djokovic nadal or Federer? You can’t say “tennis goat” and not include those three

[@semi6544]

He made the argument most people use to not rank Floyd Mayweather as the best of all time. Mayweather didn't beat the best of his era until they were out of their primes. I don't know. These Best of all-time debates are all boring. We can never know the right answers. The sports change, technology changes, and the physical ability of athletes change.

[@Dizzy160]

@@semi6544 you're 99.9 percent right the 0.01 is Michael Jordan

[@longlong3153]

Both side have their arguments, but to downgrade Serena lack of competitions, I have to disagree. Below is a list of players that Serena need to go thru to win grand slams. Hingis Davenport Venus Kim C Justin Jennifer C Sharvspova Kerber Mausemo Vika These players are all multiple grand slams winners and reach the number 1 ranking.

[@taxationistheft7047]

The first 8 players you named were only relevant in the late 90s and mid 2000s. Her competition was garbage in her prime yeads

[@leepatrick9432]

When Venus,Henin and Klijsters were at their best Serena wasn't winning as often

[@Leo-57]

@@leepatrick9432 I agree, I personally think that the Williams father destroyed Venus career, she was an excellent player, and I saw her not playing her best on purpose when facing Serena at some point.

[@Leo-57]

On that list, Steffi Graf had to play against 5 of them, she has a winning record against them and beat them all in grand slams. I am talking about Hingis, Davenport, Venus, Kim Clijters and Capriati

[@jessg101]

Seriously havent you watched tennis after Henin retired, after 2009??

[@shawnbesabella]

He brings up the caliber of competition over her career but whose fault is it that the other players that were in the same single-digit slam counts earlier in her career decided to call it quits? Not hers. She maintained a quality of play over an extended period of time in tandem with an ever-growing pool of talent.

[@bjrnthebootybandit]

Also injuries. Henin Hardienne, Hingis suffered injuries. Clisters quit that's true

[@monochrome493]

It's FUNNY how people of RUSSO'S ILK when it comes to people of Color they always have to move the goalpost to justify People of Color aren't greater than they're great white hope. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT when it comes to BASEBALL you don't hear One Anglo Saxon Talking Head like RUSSO admit or say well BABE RUTH ONLY PLAYED AGAINST WHITE PLUMBERS, MECHANICS, POSTMEN, BUS DRIVERS ETC. BABE RUTH did not play against the BEST BASEBALL PLAYERS of his ERA because the BEST PLAYERS were banned due to america's RACIST HISTORY and those players were BLACK! So miss me with the she didn't play against greater competition than Martina or Graf...

[@eric7441]

Look at men’s tennis where you have essentially three all-timers who, despite their competition, were each able to amass 20 Grand Slams. In women’s tennis, no one comes close to Serena, yet in the 80s, there were players who were at least close to Martina and yet she still amassed so many Grand Slams.

[@etf42]

its not her fault but that's irrelevant

[@davealexander5268]

@@eric7441 OR one can surmise that Serena was just THAT dominant .

[@marvinmason20]

As a black man and knowing what the Williams sisters did for the culture, I'd want to say Serena, but Mad Dog is right.

[@dustierbottoms]

Genuine question, what did Serena do for the culture of tennis? If we are talking about her race, Arthur Ashe and Althea Gibson were far more impactful. If we are talking about the power game, Chris everet, Graf, and seles were the trailblazers.

[@marvinmason20]

@@dustierbottoms just because Ashe et al did great things prior doesn't diminish her impact now. She opened doors for women making real money in sport and is a beacon of excellence for her race and others.

[@droid1appmkr]

​​@@dustierbottoms no Naomi Osaka, No Stevens, no Coco Gauff and other like them without Serena and Venus. Serena offered viability to the sport for a current pool of girls who wouldn't have tried it otherwise. Cannot underestimate that part. She's in the bracket of Gibson on the women's side in that respect.

[@dustierbottoms]

@@droid1appmkr Serena has said her biggest inspiration growing up was Monica seles. She wanted to hit like Monica. While it’s great to be have a role model of the same race, I highly doubt there would be no black tennis players ever had the Williams never existed. That seems like a stretch. Who was tiger woods role model? As far as being a beacon of excellence, I actually think as great as she was, she underachieved. And she had so many problems with poor sportsmanship throughout her career.

[@GrahamCStrouse]

I think you can make a case for either one of them. Steffi was more versatile and more dominant during her peak. Serena was a revolutionary power player who stayed at the top of her game for the better part of her 20+ year career. They were both really good doubles players-I’d have to give the edge to Serena here, though. If there’s an asterisk on Steffi’s career it’s the fact that Seles, her biggest rival, had her career shanked by that insane fan who, y’know, shanked her. I feel like Martina needs to be in the mix her, too, although I’d have to put her behind Steffi & Serena. Martina’s definitely the greatest mixed doubles player of all-time…

[@blahblahlablah]

A debate where one guy knows tennis, and the other has no idea.

[@wellingtonpalme6729]

See kids ? " That's a fair point" " Reasonable" That's how you have a good debate It's ok to have a different opinion about an specific topic And when both sides show some sort of respect and it is even better It was a good segment

[@fromthegroundup.5766]

Graf won 22 grand slam titles by age of 29. Decimates anyone else. Serena, great as she is, took way longer to win same amount. Graf is GOAT!

[@GodsView1]

Court won 21 grand slams by age 28, 24 by 31. It must be said that the debaters' comment are disingenuous and have no credibility whatsover to not even mention Margaret Court who won 11 of her 24 grand slams in the 'open' era (from 1968), proving that she was superior over 'professionals' as well in her efforts. She also won 9 of her 19 doubles slams in the open era. Furthermore, she won 3 grand slam singles after her first child whereas Williams won one which has some significance in terms of mental acumen. Very significantly, Williams had 10 more pro years than Court, or perhaps likely reduce that to 7 or 8 years being that Williams turned pro at 14 (Court 17 or 18) and one generally wouldn't expect a person to win a slam before they were about 16 or 17 going by the example of Hingis who won at 16. Court is clearly the greatest player of all time due to the weight of the all conquering grand slams yet Williams would have been the equal greatest and the greatest of all time if respectively she had equaled and out-'slammed' Court. There's zero difference that Court won 13 of her 24 slams in the pre-open era because the 'professionals' sought 'pro' money of their own volition and by their own decision declined playing the slams so it's on them. It doesn't mean they were better than Court, but that they just wanted to earn more money.

[@noelmadden1920]

Clijsters and Henin retired in their mid 20s because they knew there was no point carrying on with Serena around. Sharapova continued but was driven to PEDs to try to overcome Serena and still couldn't. Navratilova won 9 wimbledons in a time where the other players were completely substandard on grass. Serena would have won 15 wimbledons against the likes of Chris Evert.

[@PravoslavniVitez]

Clijsters retired to start a family and Henin retired due to burnout. Their decisions had nothing to do with Serena. Navratilova won Wimbledon by beating the likes of Goolagong, Evert, Seles and Graf multiple times, a level of competition Serena has never had to face. Graf is the GOAT.

[@Thomas_Erickson]

making an argument about a modern player being sent back is really dumb. equipment, technology, training, even the mental makeup of the game has changed significantly since that time. I can tell you right now, Serena's game would not translate well to 80s style tennis.

[@jasonlewis460]

Martina Hingis beat Serena Willams in her PRIME. Martina Hingis would have won 24 Grandslams if she didn't get ban for cocaine.

[@noelmadden1920]

@@Thomas_Erickson correct, they wouldn't return her serve!

[@noelmadden1920]

@@PravoslavniVitez Serena beat Steffi in the final at Indian Wells when she was just 17 and before you say Steffi was past it by then she won the French that year! Serena is the GOAT, if it wasn't for illness, injury bad officials she'd have won 30 minimum. Sharapova was as good as any of the players of the Navratilova era. She'd have won 10 or 12 slams in the 80s or 90s. Wozniacki was very similar in style and quality to Evert but couldn't live with Serena. Just ask Martina or Evert who is the GOAT!

[@scrabbleking1965]

Total titles in career Serena 98, Martina 359! Total grand slam titles Serena 39, Martina 59! Serena singles match wins 855, Martina 1442 (and with higher winning %)! Total singles career titles Serena 73, Martina 167!!! Doubles match wins Serena 192, Martina 747!!!

[@TheSk8erGamer]

When people who don’t watch tennis think of female tennis dominance they think of Serena. Her run transcended the sport…can’t say the same about the others

[@greenmachine6373]

Because we all go to Jason Williams for our tennis knowledge.

[@99HockeyDad99]

Lol

[@princecheck11]

u go to mad dog for tennis knowledge?

[@maljones1398]

@@princecheck11 white dudes know more about tennis let’s get real

[@princecheck11]

@@maljones1398 that dont change anything i saidd

[@Kickinthescience]

@@princecheck11 who you think has more tennis knowledge between the 2?

[@realamerican8069]

Finally!! You guys are talking about other sports!! I just appreciate the debate! I love tennis!

[@moalston4203]

It a sports programming network what else is new

[@jamaali2358]

@@moalston4203 It's the LeBron show

[@grando2750]

I feel you, wish they would more. But it’s typically when Tiger (golf) or Serena (Tennis) is in the news that they discuss it. Or if there is a controversy (i.e the liv situation)

[@moalston4203]

@@grando2750 politics is parts of sports 🐑

[@jasonlewis460]

Yup!! Did you see Kyrigos take out Medvedev.. He made that Wimbledon final statement. The only thing upsetting was Alcaraz losing in the first round. Fake # 2 seed.

[@truthsaviour8804]

I don't know what mad dog is talking about. The game in Serena's Era was more competive than in chris Everett or Martina's Era. Those who followed the game for decades know that when Martina and Chris dominated the game, they were using wood rackets. You can't compare the two eras. Longevity and winning makes Serena the GOAT. Serena had to eventually play players that weren't even born yet. She still managed to beat the majority of them. Chris and Martina never had that type of Longevity. Martina only became dominant in the later stages of her career after she started bulking up. She racked up most those slams because the women's field was so weak.

[@jmar5127]

I have a issue with people who argue a spirt they never followed. Serena is not better than Graf or Martina. She's just not. If u didn't watch stfu. Jay will reaction like he knows the players prior. Cut it out

[@edgehead411]

JWill huffing and puffing like he didnt know Mad Dog had to take another side because it is a debate show.

[@anubis7652]

You vultures really have ruined sports media.

[@moalston4203]

J Will cracks me up with his serious face man

[@terrylrichardson1947]

Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, Venus, Hingis, Davenport, Azarenka, Capriati......Serena had PLENTY of competition

[@Xervello]

Graff won the calendar grand slam in 1988 and went 3/4 grand slams in a year FOUR other times. All while beating future hall of famers in ten less years than Serena has needed to rack up her grand slams.

[@romelmurdock4187]

Great point...... Like Emmitt Smith all time rushing leader, how long did it take

[@mustaphastjules1194]

Stefi is the GOAT*. That * is Monica Seles.... se their head to head before she was stabbed. She not wining 22 with a healthy, younger Seles, Period.

[@lyndonchastain3181]

Thank you Mad Dog. The disrespect people show Graf is vomit inducing

[@oscarthomasfifa4871]

100% the greatest but she isn't from the States so they don't care

[@lyndonchastain3181]

@@oscarthomasfifa4871 Exactly she had 22 slams at age 30 when she retired compared to Serena’s 13 at the same age. Also won CYGS and Olympic Gold in same year and has 4 slams at each one which Serena can’t say. It’s just moronic honestly

[@jlobiafra]

@@lyndonchastain3181 yeah but her main competitor monica seles got stabbed in her prime. Imagine if someone stabbed nadal in his prime , Federer would have more majors

[@derekkeane5152]

guys, if seles isn't stabbed by a graf supporter, are we talking about graf??? seles was closer to Serena than graf

[@oscarthomasfifa4871]

@@derekkeane5152 Name me one competitor of Serena that was on the Level of seles graf or navratilova. Serena would have less than 10 grand slams if she would have played in that era

[@SP-ve1im]

Hingis career was short but when she was healthy, definitely looked the best alltime.

[@mfranklin5732]

As a young black girl watching Serena, Venus, Martina H, and Graff-Graff was the more experienced player and more agile of all of them. The Williams sisters' possessed power I've never seen from women players before. But there was always SOMETHING about Martina H that left me intrigued with the talent she brought to the game. She's always been in my favorite personal top 10 players.

[@ernestbailey3270]

Of course Jay Williams is saying Serena is the best because either ESPN wants an alternate argument or because he has to bring up race and support her because of a certain portion of viewership that is watching and he can't risk criticism from that demographic. He did actually mention race and growing up in Compton,which has nothing to do with actual tennis play.

[@marcmoellering6619]

Maddog killed him in the argument and made some great pts. Then Duke toolbag boy brings up Jordan and Lebron and lost that too so then of course he has to play the race card.

[@romelmurdock4187]

Just like is Jackie Robinson the greatest of all time possibly no one had it harder than he..... But he wasn't he was great not the greatest black females Zina garrison, althea Gibson so she didn't pave anything you can't use her color or race

[@Shiljamannn]

Navratilova is the GOAT... Better competetion.. And has 59 Gran Slams all together in singles, doubles and mixed doubles.... And way more total titles than Serena.... Serena top 5 but not the GOAT... She is like Shaq of women tennis....

[@akshaygupta4040]

serena would take a lot of titles from those 2 as well, just like in the case of federer, jokavic & nadal

[@paulmkz]

Navratilova has 20 more major titles in singles and doubles. She has to be No 1

[@rcvillapando]

Even though Mad Dog has silly arguments with basketball players in the past, he definitely earns respect in taking history into consideration. The guy is like a Maester in GoT, he knows history quite well.

[@Joseph-lz5er]

I agree. He actually makes the debate lot more interesting, and First Take watchable now.

[@jamesnelson5618]

Silly Argument That a Pep talk when you use that word to Describe What discussion hes improvise and when he bring up basketball player In the Past and earn to be heard Is part of being Historian Bro regardless what he does.

[@funkslave9425]

Graff and Martina won dozens of titles more than Serena, why is that not being mentioned.

[@Gundamjinni]

One of the best debates in a long time. Thank you for respecting each other and making great points

[@Curtis69213]

J. Will is generally a respectful debater

[@76carmel]

Serena Williams’ biggest competitor in her era was Maria Sharapova.

[@62fairlane]

Margaret Court is the best player of all time. With a record 24 Grand Slam singles titles, it's hard to argue. Add in her 19 doubles and 19 mixed doubles titles and Court has a record 62 Major titles to her credit.

[@d4v1do]

Margaret court played before civil rights 😂😂😂😂😂

[@mikelyn1035]

She definitely wouldn’t have 24 if they allowed all of the players to travel over seas when she played

[@TimWong49152]

Why are people mad at Mag Dog? He said it was debatable. They're on a debate show. Everyone's debating their own opinion. As long as this debate is qualified with "female", I have no problem.

[@peternut358]

Australian Margaret Court is the greatest Female player winning the most grand slams. So this fool doesn’t mention her in the top 5

[@ma2490]

because its an US show....... who dont do their research..... Court has the most grand slams..... Serena doesnt even have that record......

[@oscarthomasfifa4871]

Steffi Graf won 22 grand slams by the age of 29 she is 100% better than Serena. If she would have played till 40 she would at least have 30 if not more

[@kindofbluenyc]

If Monica Seles was.t sadly stabbed graf doesn't win that many grand slams. Graf is great, but Serena is undoubtedly better. You don't really understand tennis.

[@MafiaboysWorld]

Steffi also was the last woman to win the Grand Slam. 👍

[@oscarthomasfifa4871]

@@kindofbluenyc Name me one player Serena had to face regularly that was on the Level of seles graf and navratilova? If Serena would have played in that era she would have less than 10 grand slams

[@kindofbluenyc]

@@MafiaboysWorld True. But Serena won the "Serena Slam".

[@MafiaboysWorld]

@@kindofbluenyc That doesn't matter. Wasn't 4 slams in the 1 calendar year, which is what makes the Grand Slam. That's why Novak was trying so hard to win all 4 slams last year but the pressure got to him at the US open and he missed out on the slam.

[@takudzwashoniwa2366]

The goat status should be given to people that essentially became an ambassador for the sport and made the sport globally recognized. Michael Schumacher in F1 MJ in basketball Tiger Woods in Golf Serena in Tennis etc..

[@moalston4203]

There you have it folks can't argue with that

[@MrGenexxx]

Yeah right before Serena nobody cared about tennis LMAO bad take

[@moalston4203]

@@MrGenexxx I like 🎾

[@Thegigachad248]

Tiger is nowhere neat the GOAT in Golf, Jack Nicklaus was far better for far longer.

[@Thegigachad248]

Jordan also isn't even top 3 in NBA history. 1. Bill Russell 2. Kareem 3. Magic Johnson

[@nkufi1]

How can this be even a debate ? Serena the 🐐🐐🐐

[@silverguard8105]

It's a debate to those who actually pay attention to tennis and have watched it across many era's. You can talk about Serena having 23 grand slam titles. Graf has 22, in 17 years. In 1988 she won all 4 grand slam titles. She then won the Australian open in 89 to make it 5 straight. She lost the French open but then won Wimbledon and the US Open to finish the year and the Australian open in 1990. Graff won 5 straight majors and 8 of 9. That is absurd. Don't tell me there isn't a debate.

[@TheSk8erGamer]

@@silverguard8105 GOAT status belongs to the most dominant AND greatest ambassador. Serena is the face of women’s tennis….and it’s not even close 😂. Even people who never watched a match associate her name with tennis greatness…. you can’t say the same about Graf and others….

[@_friedie]

@@TheSk8erGamer That's from an US-perspective. In the rest of the world Steffi is regarded as GOAT.

[@davidforestieri4784]

Serena is not beating Martina with the wooden badminton racquet Martina played with in the day

[@hiwayman981]

Agreed, and that is one definite metric by which different era's could possibly be compared; each player would be required to play with the frames, court surfaces, footwear/equipment, and string technology of the other over the course of several to many matches.

[@shanikaayanna9767]

What he said about Sharapova completely contradicted his whole point!

[@jasonlewis460]

No he was right!!! Martina Hingis beat Serena Willams multiple times and there is no way she would have lost 15 times straight to her. If Martina Hingis dint get BAN for cocaine she would have 23 Grand Slams also.

[@DaggerMan11]

Exactly. If you beat the #2 player 19 times in a row, and that player was dominating everybody else for a stretch, then that speaks to how dominant the #1 was.

[@Thomas_Erickson]

@@DaggerMan11 that would be true, but no one has ever put Sharapova anywhere near the top of tennis conversation. She’s never even been a HM to the top 10 discussion. So his point is, which historically great player can you use to measure Serena against? Not saying he’s right, but that’s his point.

[@DaggerMan11]

@@Thomas_Erickson Eh, she definitely belongs in an Honorable Mention to the top 10 discussion. There's really not much separating Sharapova's career from the Henin/Venus/Goolagong tier. And if she had more success against Serena she'd be firmly within that tier. But also, the depth on the WTA tour in the 70s and 80s was lacking. If you do an analysis using a metric like Elo rating from that era, you'd find that the distribution of Elo ratings was far more bimodal than it would become in the 90s and 2000s.

[@shanikaayanna9767]

@@Thomas_Erickson I don’t know what tennis broadcasts you watch, but when Sharapova beat Serena 4 times in a row early in her career, she was touted as being the next great!! If it weren’t for Serena, she would have undoubtedly won more slams.

[@scarysarie7645]

Martina is the Goat! She has more records than anyone male or female in tennis. I'm not just talking Grand Slams singles titles. There are a lot of factors. In the open era of tennis there was no one like her. She paved the way for female tennis players to condition and train they way they do now. She started it. She has the best serve and volley in the game. Look at her doubles and mixed double records. She played some of these players when she was in her 30's and still won tiles up until she was 50. Martina is the Goat! I of course ❤ Steffi and Serena as well but, I just spent a couple months rewatching old matches from the 70's and 80's and that was by far the best time in womens tennis.

[@johnbrowntheprophet]

Martina Navratilova was the most dominant woman’s tennis player I’ve ever seen, and she played against significantly better competition than Serena Williams. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@amrithbharadwaj4945]

Mad Dog didn't have to debate someone who actually knew the sport. He made good arguments but it was easy money for him with JWill

[@princecheck11]

bc he didnt break down every accomplishment in tennis means he dk about the topic

[@amrithbharadwaj4945]

@@princecheck11 it's debate show. You're supposed to argue and he didn't. He just made the JJ REDICK CP3 vs Bob Cousy argument and then went straight to playing the race card. He didn't make any tennis arguments. So yeah...

[@princecheck11]

@@amrithbharadwaj4945 you saying he played the race card like that was his whole argument that was one of his reasons why & u act like it’s wrong to include that on being the greatest

[@amrithbharadwaj4945]

@@princecheck11 I said the race argument was one of the two counter arguments that he made. And yes, it matters but not as much as American sports media thinks it does. You never hear Latin American, Brown or Far east asian tennis players complain about it as much

[@princecheck11]

@@amrithbharadwaj4945 Just bc you dont complain about it dont mean anything & u act like serena brought it up

[@dnice4145]

Don't care what Doggy says I watched both Navratilova and SW, Williams would smoke Navratilova both in their prime. Williams has a much more dominant game in terms of physicality and speed, Williams played with much more power. I would put SW first with Graf a close 2nd though Graf is my favorite.

[@MafiaboysWorld]

JWill doesn't realize that the women in the 80s played 1/2 the number of tournaments that women on the current WTA do. But to me, Steffi Graf is the 🐐. Won the Olympic Slam (Gold medal & all 4 slams) and only retired so early to have kids with Andre Agassi. 😎👍

[@paulgranberry9442]

And Serena beat Graf twice and Graf retired,she didn't want any parts of Serena!!

[@hotfire4647]

Serena the 🐐 it's not even close

[@MafiaboysWorld]

@@hotfire4647 Graf, Seles & Hingis would have DOG WALKED Serena. Hingis for example was only 16 and became world #1 for 5yrs straight from 96-2000 before she retired at 21 from injury cutting her career short. Seles was the same, stabbed by a crazy fan and was never the same. Graf, last woman to win the calendar slam, last woman to win the Olympic slam, won 22 slams before age 29. At 29 Serena was only up to 13.

[@iceman0187]

@@MafiaboysWorld so a 16 yo becoming #1 for 5 yrs straight is a strong era?Serena beat her at the 99 us open. Hingis didn't necessarily retire because of a particular injury. Seles not overcoming a CUT by a deranged fan that both Williams would've came back from is a sign of...Graf winning her slams in a shorter time doesn't necessarily mean what u want it to mean, how come she didn't stick around for a few more yrs, she was only 30, what she didn't want to match/surpass 24 slams?

[@-onyx2626]

@@MafiaboysWorld 🎯

[@avzhc]

If Serena played Steffi, Martina and Chrissie in GS Finals, they wouldn’t have as many slams as they have so idk what Mad Dog is saying

[@MafiaboysWorld]

Martina Hingis would've dog walked Serena and it's not even close. Hingis had 13 grand slams by age 21 and was world #1 for 5yrs straight. Serena had 1 Grand Slam by age 21 and wasn't close to the Top 5 of the WTA tour. 🤦

[@oscarthomasfifa4871]

Serena would literally have like 5 grand slams at most if she had to play against These women for her grand slams titles

[@Drummajortsu]

Loved tennis in the late 80’s & 90’s I’m was in high school watching the Williams Sisters come up. Very proud of what they and their father accomplished as a fellow African American, but Mad Dogg is right. Women’s tennis hasn’t been deep in 20 years. He forgot great players like Sanchez Vicario!

[@TheExcelllence]

No disrespect but J Will was not equipped for this, Mad Dog may not be a Tennis expert but he's a expert in debating HIS point, I would like to see a Tennis analyst debate this with Mad Dog instead. Example: MD saying Graff is winning a few Majors against Serena, okay well then how many would Serena win off of her? Graff wouldn't have 22, and if not for an autoimmune disease Venus would have 15+.

[@Leo-57]

It's always very difficult to compare different eras in sports, Margareth Court won 24 grand slams, but people say that because of 13 of them were not in the open era, she doesn't have a point to be in GOAT debate, like it was her fault that the rules were different. It's true that serena didn't have a big caliber opponent to make a rivalry through her career like Agassi was for Sampras, or Monica Seles was for Graaf before her injury etc... But Serena was very consistent and play high level for a longtime. I think Graaf, Serena, Margareth Court and Navratilova should be in discussion for the GOAT title, but Navratilova will be the one to suffer the most in terms of solid arguments to have the edge over the other 3. Graaf is a very low profile personality and she's not american, so her notoriety is less powerful, only tennis lovers will know her meritocracy. At the end, it's not easy at all to pick one like it's easy to Pick MJ or Kareem in basketball or Pele in football, or Brady in American football or Ali in boxing, the GOAT in women tennis is very difficult one

[@joemarshall4226]

But it is easy to say that it shouldn't be Serena if you look at my arguments above. She has by far the weakest case.

[@Will-nb8qk]

Margaret Court will never really be in calculations. Her opponents were English speakers of which many couldn’t be bothered travelling ti Australia.

[@GodsView1]

@@Will-nb8qk Though it's on them that some didn't travel to Aus, one plays according to who is there, it doesn't lower the 'weight' of the match. If good players are injured or don't turn up it doesn't take away from the winner.

[@Will-nb8qk]

@@GodsView1 : In generational comparisons it does, which I thought would be needless to mention to an adult 🤦‍♂️

[@GodsView1]

@@Will-nb8qk You're forgetting that Court was of the Calibre that won 24 slams. She could beat whoever & did

[@kingtutankhamun402]

Billie Jean King is the most SIGNIFICANT tennis player male or female of all time. Serena is the best player. Graf & Federer both said that Serena was the best. Ask all of the players who is the best & Serena would win.

[@M360-w6o]

Graff won 4 grand slams in one year and Serena won 3 in one year but Mag Dogg makes a great point. Serena, Graff, Martina definitely is the top 3, where ever you rank them.

[@thedoc225ify]

Graff was relentless and my era so im gonna say she's the greatest.

[@lyndonmurray3669]

Chris, you have a point, but I believe Serena is the best tennis player of all time. I will give Serena the edge over the other greats because she changed the game, unlike any other player. Her power and athleticism when she Venus came into the game were unmatched for many years. No one ever saw that power and athleticism before. She has 4 gold medals although 3 out of the 4 are in doubles and 1 in singles. Graf had won gold, bronze, and silver. Serena has won more tennis matches than anyone else with 365 wins.

[@rajusaha855]

But Graf has more WTA titles than Serena (107 vs 73) more matches wins (902-855) despite playing 10 less years than Serena, Graf had more weeks at no 1 (377 vs 319) , more year end no 1 (8 vs 5), longer match winning streak (66 vs 34). Graf had quadruple slam & won golden slam in 1988 something Serena never achieved. So Graf is GOAT then Martina then Serena.

[@joshuahodge8804]

It’s not really debatable, Serena is the best

[@PravoslavniVitez]

- Steffi won the Golden Calendar Slam (only player in history) - Steffi has 377 weeks at #1 (all time record) - Steffi has 8 YE #1 (all time record) - Steffi won all of the Slams at least 4 times (only player in history) - Steffi won at least 6 Slams on all surfaces (only player in history) - Steffi won way more titles than Serena - Steffi has a higher winning % than Serena - Steffi was both more dominant and more consistent than Serena - Steffi had a higher peak than Serena - Steffi had better competition than Serena - Steffi accomplished more than Serena despite playing for 11 less years It’s no contest, Graf is the GOAT.

[@PrettyboyPa]

Jwill and Molly better stop, they know they dont know anything about tennis lol. When you hear mad dog talk you know he definitely knows his stuff lol. And it's not like he's saying Serena's not in the debate, he said if you want to say Serena's the best he doesn't have a problem with it.

[@km_1911]

Go back and look at how tennis players moved in the 80s and compare that to the raw athleticism you see from them today, and try to convince me that Serena doesn’t absolutely decimate those players. Sharipova easily takes the majority against them and even she couldn’t ever beat Serena.

[@akanimophilip8099]

You wouldn't be talking of Serena this much if Justin Henin didnt retire too early.

[@km_1911]

@@akanimophilip8099 And that’s your adorable opinion. However, we live in a reality where Serena Williams went on to dominate women’s tennis in every conceivable way and is talked about all the time. Hope that doesn’t upset you too much, bud.

[@Kickinthescience]

NBA players are more athletic now and have better medicine but seem to get hurt more than previous generations of NBA players when the NBA was much more physical

[@redeyexxx1841]

That's a stupid argument. Ofc players of today are better than that of the past. But that not exactly what we use in GOAT debates.

[@madisonodom2107]

Jay Will needs to chill out and deal with an opinion he doesn't agree with.

[@WarhawksKilla345]

Reasonable debate, I like it. Dude makes some really good points

[@paulbennett7724]

Like all debates in sport on who was better, especially where it’s close and across different eras it will always really come down to opinion rather than fact. Same re Jordan and Lebron, Woods and Michelson, Pele and Messi/Ronaldo etc etc.

[@willawentertainment]

Serena beat everyone put in front of her, and there have been some great players. He’s absolutely ridiculous. His takes are so trash. Graf benefited when Seles was severely injured. Serena is the GOAT of tennis, period! She has 23 grand slams even though early in her career, she and Venus basically played tennis part-time because, unlike their peers, they lived balanced lives. She could have 30 grand slams. And none of those other greats he mentioned had a sibling as great as Venus was in the early 2000s. Serena would’ve dominated Martina, Graf and whoever else.

[@darrylbonner2380]

his argument was that Serena wouldn't have won as much if she was playing with them but doesn't bring up that they for sure wouldn't have won that many if they had to go up against either of the Williams sister defiantly serena

[@Derpfriar]

Its a simple answer and its a Yes. You can argue that she might not have won the hardest championships of overall talent but a prime Serena would beat every other woman in history in their prime. It really is not even a debate but i do acknowledge the way Mad dog's logic is. Its just not how I would judge greatness in this particular sport. I think Prime Serena wipes the floor with everyone even the mighty Graff.

[@VictorVonDoom.]

a prime Serena would beat every other woman in history in their prime. It really is not even a debate Please enlighten everyone with the factual evidence you have to prove that…and I want factual evidence not your opinion

[@hiwayman981]

Oh I don't know; we would have to put a wooden racquet in Serena's hands, and have her play on faster grass courts to even begin to ascertain that statement...

[@PravoslavniVitez]

Prime for prime, both Navratilova and Graf were better than Serena. They had the higher peak, were more dominant and more consistent.

[@absoluteclutch4585]

Mad dog knows what he's talking about. Jay even talked about Serena's upbringing, like that hasnt got anything to do with who's better. Steffi Graff by a mile.

[@manguy2000]

This is too funny. The only time they talk about tennis is to cover Serena So that supports mad dog point about there not being anyone else elite as a rival for espn to talk about. And I'm a tennis fan. I see the depth of talent now.. But ten to fifteen years ago.. There was no one.

[@dee-c2032]

Or that just shows how dominant Serena is/was.....Serena is undoubtedly the GOAT

[@Fraudkovic]

@@dee-c2032 Graf was much more dominant lol please don't make casual statements like these. 22/54>23/74 SIMPLE MATH. And Graf leads every other relevant stat

[@dee-c2032]

@@Fraudkovic no....23>22 point blank period. You can't knock Serena because she was able to stay healthy and had a longer career. There's nothing wrong with being second all time. A 17-18 year old Serena went 1-1 with Graf in the two matches they played. Graff was 30! Stop it.

[@dee-c2032]

@@Fraudkovic dude said "much more dominant" lmfaoo

[@Fraudkovic]

@@dee-c2032 dumass 30 was the age most professional players retired at. So serena basically had a 1-1 record against graf at her retirement door. Sampras retired at 31. Just because serena is shamelessly playing till 41 farming wins against trash opposition doesn't mean anything. Graf has every record over serena. Serena got one more mickey mouse slams and 10 more outbursts at the umpire calling him sexist.

[@ReidVV]

Not a time to be down on a great player retiring, but Russo is 100% correct. Based on big wins and the quality of opponents during their peak careers, I agree Graf was better all time, even with one less slam win. Would love to see peak Serena vs peak Graf. What a match. Props also to Martina who was incredible and her rivalry against the also great Chissy Evert put women's pro tennis on the map and set the stage for all women tennis pros that have followed. Only Billie Jean herself has done more for women's tennis and tennis in general.

[@Barrydavillain]

Serena is a great player, no question. But calling her the goat is a diss to Graf. People are a prisoner of the moment and just overlook the past players

[@quentincrisp6933]

These guys are clueless! Stefi has one less Slam than Serena who has one less than Court. Stefi was #1 for a record 377 weeks, won more matches & tournaments at a greater % than Serena, Won a calendar Slam topped off with an Olympic Gold Medal (no man or woman has accomplished) All of this accomplished playing ten years less than Serena! Serena is getting hyped because she's American and came from a poor Black community which is a big accomplishment, however she falls short of Stefi's incredible career!

[@b.l.8996]

Before Serena had a child.. her grand slam final record was ridiculous and 2nd to none...and technically still is. No other player gas come back, from birthing a child, and reached as many slam finals!

[@garygee3888]

Graf got helped by Seles getting stabbed on court which derailed her career

[@quentincrisp6933]

@@garygee3888 Steffi was 6-4 against Seles before her attack!, then 4-1 after her return! Steffi wasn't helped by anyone except herself the G.O.A.T. 🐐

[@jcsuperstar4646]

This was a fantastic debate. With me being someone who saw all of these great tennis players play (not Court who isn't even in their league), while I lean to Serena because of my love for her, I actually can agree that Steffi was better and Martina was on par. Steffi and Martina definitely played against better competition. I just wish the woman in Serena's era were more consistent. Only Venus and Justine were consistent; both winning 7 GS.

[@TJMoore-gd8ex]

Bulldog always picks the older athletes over the younger ones! Let's look at his reasoning here. First of all, Stef Graf doesn't belong in this discussion at all!! Everyone knows that she was dominated my Martina Hingis and if that German fan didn't stab her during a tennis match, Graf doesn't win 22 majors! She won a majority of those after Hingis was stabbed and missed many of majors! Martina Navratilova was great, but anyone with any sense knows that because of Title 9 the level of female athletes were much deeper during Serena Williams era than the Martina Navratilova era!! Serena is the greatest hands down!!!

[@pitbull64]

Martina Navratilova the most dominant and had more competition.Serena was way better than Venus as Richard did say she would be.

[@andreacapulco2949]

The GOAT still debatable... Steffi, Serena, Margaret, Martina & Chris was the top 5 of all time 👍👍👍

[@gsc76]

Williams way out of his element here. To bring basketball into the argument is useless here. Mad dog is right on the money here with everything he said.

[@99Maddux]

J will knows nothing about tennis He isn't a sports guy he is a basketball guy

[@KCSupaman3]

...so they got rid of Skip Bayless just to bring on a Skip impersonator??...

[@Biotoze]

It’s gotta be Serena. But you really gotta appreciate Mad Dog’s pure knowledge of the history of multiple sports. Massively impressive. This was a great debate.

[@ASevBVB09]

Honestly, how can you think Serena Williams is greater than Martina Navratilova or Steffi Graf? Navratilova and Graf are clearly top 2 of all time.

[@TheSk8erGamer]

Because she’s greater that’s how lmao.

[@MuctaruKabba]

Mad Dog won the debate. The level of competition is the #1 factor in the total number of titles won by a single player. The difference in the talent between the very best player such as Serena, Martina and Steffi is probably not nearly as significant as the overall level of the competition in determining the total number of individual titles won.

[@kentstallard6512]

Level of competition? LOL Graf was getting beat by Seles regularly until the stabbing. Only the ignorant and haters deny Serena's GOAT status.

[@MuctaruKabba]

@@kentstallard6512: good Sir, Serena is definitely in the GOAT conversation and, for that matter, she's my GOAT. However, my larger point is that you just can't ignore level of competition in any debate on the GOAT.

[@jasonlanas4905]

@@kentstallard6512 Martina Navratilova won 167 titles🤫🤫 Serena 73 😂😂

[@nbarealtalker]

When I saw the headline I figured MadDog was gonna bust out some obscure name from the early 1900s like “Gertrude Beatrice Munroe was the greatest tennis player anyone had ever seen….on the Titanic anyway.”

[@dmkfactor1721]

If she was a man we’d be talking about her like she was one of the greatest athletes of all time! She deserves her due as one of the greatest athletes male or female of all time!

[@jerodtabb311]

Flatt 💯💪🤞🏼💯

[@PravoslavniVitez]

She can’t be the greatest female athlete if she’s not even the greatest in her own sport

[@dmkfactor1721]

@@PravoslavniVitez you obviously have NO CLUE!

[@WitchBoozy]

I don't know anything about tennis, but when you are ranking someone all-time, quality of competition has to be a major component of that. That is why Rocky Marciano is not the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time even though he was 49-0 with 43 KOs (he's top 5), while likes of Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali were both defeated multiple times but had tougher competition to beat and won more titles or held them for longer. They are both considered greater than Marciano in large part because of who they beat.

[@De3dSh0t]

Mad Dog does make a good argument when talking about competition. That being said, all you can do is beat who's in front of you, so for me Serena edges it very slightly over Graf and Martina

[@Fraudkovic]

Lol no she doesn't. Even without the competition argument . Graf has a much better resume than serena. 58 more weeks at no 1 , calender golden slam. Highest conversion eate in grand slams ever male or female. 22/54 . And she did all that and retired at 30 years of age. This is not even half of it . I'm a bit of a casual when it comes to women's tennis so you can certainly assume there's more. She's more consistent and she's more dominant. If serena had 25 slams i wouldn't argue it but 1 more slam isn't enough to cover all the other stats graf has in her favour

[@christophermason3323]

Serena would beat Martina 7 out of 10 times. Too strong, too athletic, too dominant.

[@ryanlebard3787]

Mad dogs arguments could be used against Jordan You can say if Jordan started his career in the early 80’s and played his whole career against the showtime lakers, bird Celtics pistons and 76ers for his entire career not just the beginning…, then you can easily say he wouldn’t have 6 rings

[@parkerbrady2617]

I love the terrible logic here from mad dog. If Serena played against the other people he is comparing her to then she would have won less and so then they would have more. That’s not entirely true. If they played in the same era then she would have less and they would have less so really they would all still be great they would just have less grand slams than before. You can’t only remove from one side and then act like the other would stay the same.

[@thisisjustanillusion6486]

Umm I have Venus as top 8. She’s literally one of the greatest ever and injuries ruined what she could of been

[@iguillo]

I've said this for years. If not for the illness and injuries, Venus would have close to 20 titles and Serena would have less than she currently has.

[@fredericopinto2943]

1 Martina Navratilova 167 187 354 2 Chris Evert 157 32 189 3 Margaret Court 92 55 147 4 Pam Shriver 21 112 133 5 Rosemary Casals 11 115 126 6 Steffi Graf 107 11 118 7 Martina Hingis 43 71 114 8 Jana Novotná 24 80 104 9 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 29 73 102 10 Billie Jean King 78 23 101 11 Serena Williams 73 25 98 The best ability is availability. Martina has more than TWICE the singles title and over THREE times the combined singles and doubles titles. Just sayn. Slams are nice, but the so-called GOAT can't be 11th on this list.

[@tucan914]

Serena is like Bama every year she's the greatest the question is who's gonna stun the world and somehow miraculously beat her

[@heistgotfame-6952]

She hasn’t been bama then in like 5 years lol

[@Dwade32]

Not for the last half decade

[@ancil57]

Serena and Steffi are the two greatest women's tennis players. I give Steffi a slight advantage because her win percentage (88.67%) was higher than Serena's (84.91%) against better competition, which is Mad Dog's point.

[@davidrichards6059]

The women in Serena's era are downplayed because Serena stopped them from achieving more. Jordan looks stronger to SOME people if Malone or Barkley or Ewing won a ring. But Jordan stopped that. Just like Serena. Venus wins at least 3 more majors if it wasn't for Serena.

[@mikev4869]

Navratilova and Steffi Graf are ahead.

[@javenturner1]

I genuinely think this isn't a stupid argument from Mad Dog. The women's game has been very up and down while Serena has been playing while in the 70s and 80s there was a consistent group of great players. That being said she still beats any other woman in history at her peak

[@VictorVonDoom.]

She still beats any other woman in history at her peak Please enlighten everyone with the factual evidence you have to prove that. And I want factual evidence not your opinion

[@dustierbottoms]

I agree with you…with one exception…prime seles…which we actually never witnessed because of the stabbing. If we got to see prime seles go against prime Serena, that would be a helluva game. That said, with all the talent and physical gifts Serena was blessed with, why are we celebrating her career? She wildly underachieved. With all those physical gifts, she never dominated an era like Graf. Shouldn’t she be statistically the GOAT by far and away?

[@robinsss]

he said the caliber of players was better in the 80's so they were tougher to beat than players of today

[@PravoslavniVitez]

No, she doesn’t. Steffi and Martina had a MUCH higher peak than Serena. Serena was never able to reach the kind of dominance Martina had in 1982-1986 and Steffi had in 1987-1989.