Is Taiwan Indefensible?

The fate of Taiwan is uncertain. As a revanchist China builds up forces near the island, the Biden administration is warning Beijing against an invasion, bolstering its defense with the sale of military hardware. While the United States does not officially recognize Taiwan’s government, it remains its strongest international backer. Beijing, meanwhile, sees Taiwan as lost territory, which needs to be “reunified” with the mainland. Recently, Beijing sent 25 warplanes into Taiwan's air defense identification zone, the largest ever incursion into the region by the People’s Liberation Army. And some argue that the scale of China’s military presence has already surpassed anything the U.S. or Taiwan militaries could stop. It is indefensible, both militarily and from a political capital perspective; the notion of risking American soldiers in this geostrategic flashpoint unthinkable. Others say American credibility is actually on the line, that the U.S. could indeed win if it had to, and that its political posturing should reflect that.
So, here’s our question: Is Taiwan indefensible?
Presented in partnership with Foreign Affairs.
FOR THE MOTION:
Lyle J. Goldstein
Research Professor, China Maritime Studies Institute, U.S. Naval War College
&
Charlie Glaser
Professor of Political Science and International Affairs at George Washington University
AGAINST THE MOTION:
Elbridge Colby
Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense
&
Elizabeth Larus
Professor of Political Science and International Affairs, University of Mary Washington
Timestamps:
(3:53) Prof. Charles Glaser argues Taiwan is indefensible
(8:30) Prof. Elizabeth Larus argues Taiwan is defensible
(13:19) Director of Defense Priorities, Lyle J. Goldstein argues Taiwan is indefensible
(17:21) Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Elbridge Colby argues Taiwan is defensible
(23:36) Would the U.S. have the will to fight against Taiwan?
(25:17) Dr. Goldstein on how the fight for Taiwan would unfold
(31:57) China’s rapid military expansion: implications for the Indo-Pacific
(38:39) How does Taiwan's role as the #1 chip manufacturer impact the conflict calculus?
(41:06) How would the U.S. justify going to war for Taiwan to the American public?
(44:24) Closing Arguments Begin
#taiwanisindefensible #intelligencesquared #iq2us #debate #taiwan #china #opentodebate
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[@OpentoDebate]

Debate Timestamps: (3:53) Prof. Charles Glaser argues Taiwan is indefensible (8:30) Prof. Elizabeth Larus argues Taiwan is defensible (13:19) Director of Defense Priorities, Lyle J. Goldstein argues Taiwan is indefensible (17:21) Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Elbridge Colby argues Taiwan is defensible (23:36) Would the U.S. have the will to fight against Taiwan? (25:17) Dr. Goldstein on how the fight for Taiwan would unfold (31:57) China’s rapid military expansion: implications for the Indo-Pacific (38:39) How does Taiwan's role as the #1 chip manufacturer impact the conflict calculus? (41:06) How would the U.S. justify going to war for Taiwan to the American public? (44:24) Closing Arguments Begin

[@007kingifrit]

7:55 so you're willing to defend allies as long as there is no risk to america.....so you're not willing to defend american allies at all

[@greenpepper21]

Not only that, we officially dumped Taiwan ( our former ally ) and denied Taiwan's sovereignty on record, ever since our top 1% rich needed friendship with China.

[@iiggiic5580]

It’s defendable!!

[@xenovax7772]

@@Nihil847 sure thing uncle apu

[@AlexH-nt1gg]

It depends on how big the risk is. If China is Panama, Iraq, or Libya, sure, the US will defend Taiwan, but that's not the case

[@PabloGonzalez-qh6ii]

@@iiggiic5580 13:20 His opening statement alone proves that it isn't defendable. It will be but, at what cost. The U.S. fighting both Russia and China at the beginning of WW3 will be catastrophic for the U.S. Europe and Asia have less than a decade to restructure their militaries. That is why America was telling its allies to bolster their militaries. U.S. will lose a lot and will need to enforce the Draft.

[@timmychang1791]

If you just want to destroy a place, is that victory.

[@craigrik2699]

Good question, ask Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc how interventions by the west helped????

[@zwing1707]

@@craigrik2699 helped more than the Chinese criminal interference in North Korea. A starved, diseased and deranged war hound of China

[@Indigo947]

@@zwing1707 Really? Is that what the Iraqis, Libyan, and all the other numerous countries U.S have invaded and installed useless rulers told you? Would you support defending the native Hawaiians, however few of them that are left?

[@zwing1707]

@@Indigo947 the Iraqis and Libyans live like kings compared to North Koreans. And I will gladly defend the Hawaiians native or not against china

[@RealRocoCoco]

There’s a definite loser, so yes!

[@timmychang1791]

This is not about only Taiwan but what happens to us afterwards.

[@zwing1707]

@James Barlow a CCP killer

[@YorktownUSA]

Exactly 💯

[@ChiefCabioch]

Exactly!

[@Indigo947]

@@zwing1707 Who's the CCP killer?

[@chriscross7494]

@James Barlow China claims they are already fighting an unconventional war.

[@satyasubhash8869]

Is Taiwan worth the risk is such a stupid question... What do you think? China will stop exerting its power once it reaches the he first island chain... ??

[@bradenchou7338]

exert power? maybe, but probably nothing like what Western nations think that means. for more than a thousand years China had no interest in extending its borders. Its not a given that they will act like an expansionist.

[@grizzlygrizzle]

Taiwan is China's Sudetenland. Or maybe its Poland. Communists, and leftists more generally, have no souls. Communism is the Borg. Leftist ideology is the intellectual Borg. That's why they act so much like zombies. No souls. Humanity reduced to its bare biological minimum.

[@jmus6494]

Depends on what kind of world is enviosned. One based on personal freedom and human rights, or a world where individuals are there to serve their overlords and comply to the overlords vision of what is good for society.

[@nickl5658]

@@jmus6494 Chinese as a people serve their family and community. The kind of personal freedom as valued by Americans is seen as self centered and short sighted. In general Chinese people believe in exams and demonstrated ability... Chinses society is very similar to how a western company is run. A man like Donald Trump would never have been elected president in a chinese society... mainland china or any of the chinese diaspora in asia. He has no experience. He has not lead either village, Town or City. He does not full the contracts that he signs. And yes... we comply with our 'overloads' for what is good for society. Because we know from the exams that they have passed, their tract record of their achievements that our 'overloads' are the best leaders our society can produce. We leave them to lead because that is their job, what they are trained for. You do not tell a mechanic how to fix your car. You don't like this. Because you want a world where any man can be leader. The chinese wants to live in a world where every leader is like a doctor, who has gone to medical school, has done his 2 years of housemanship and gone for years of training to be specialized. You leave your doctor to do his work because you trust that the system has train him to standards that is acceptable by your society. American don't trust your leader, because you don't trust your system to give your the best leader that America can produce. You don't trust your system to have enough safe guards to keep them honest. And in a real sense you don't trust the man you have elected. That he has been tested so many times that you know how he would act. Chinese people in general hate surprises. A good government should be quiet. Make no noise, no news, and keep the nation running in the background, allowing the people to get on with life.

[@jmus6494]

@@nickl5658 sorry, did nit read your reply exvept for first but. Too long. Chinese people serve the ccp or whoever they say. Anyway the people if Hongkong and Taiwan would bwg to differ with you

[@SteveRichfield]

Japan is no further away from China than Taiwan - once China has taken Taiwan.

[@dreimann]

Exactly... First it was Hong Kong, next will be Taiwan, and we think China will just stop there for some reason?

[@Freshie55]

@@dreimann Nope. They already have their sights on Okinawa, being they were a tributary state back during the Qing dynasty. So was Korea, so they'd be next. It'd be naïve to think China will stop after Taiwan.

[@dreimann]

@@Freshie55 - Indeed

[@piscator2813]

Japan is already not much further away from China than Taiwan....

[@swift71]

‘’I watch Chinese military TV and believe every word’’

[@CETGale]

"Not only that I want the US and China to work on the MOST important things like global warming and the Covid virus"........ China produces MORE carbon than the US and they are putting 1 coal fired plant online every month plus THEY ARE THE REASON FOR THE VIRUS......smh

[@007kingifrit]

@@CETGale yea what stupid talking points that guy had....he literally repeated chinese propaganda of "work together" which is what china says whenever it needs to go on the defensive

[@bigcity2085]

How can you say China doesn't want any more than Taiwan when they also want the whole s. china sea, when they are bribing and buying up places all over the south pacific ? They want the Pacific ocean....as much of it as they can get on their way to Australia and their new tropical resort of New Zealand. New Zealand knows it is sitting out there like a defenseless ripe plum in a neighborhood that is about to get a lot tougher.

[@bigcity2085]

Maybe the premise of this debate is wrong. It shouldn't be about the U.S. defending Taiwan. What if the WORLD defended Taiwan ?

[@petekay7957]

This is simple....give Taiwan about 100 nuclear weapons. Not missiles just bombs. Hide them some where in the ground. Then use them during an invasion. The invasion force is destroyed. And then Taiwan is a wasteland that nobody wants anymore. Like i said this is easy, but not pretty. Show China the footage of the devices after they are buried and tell them come and take the island. China will either back down or loose about 1000 000 or their invasion troops. This loss will topple the CCCP government.

[@miayle9545]

As a Taiwanese, I appreciate those of you who would like to defend Taiwan. 🥺

[@gewang6760]

hope to meet them when reunification process starts.

[@usbaidigitallife7985]

when time to war then war, all Taiwanese will sacrifice for the land

[@usbaidigitallife7985]

@Sigma𐱃 third China-us war break out.

[@yzy8638]

@Sigma𐱃 ya, so the Afghanistan isnt democracy, thats y running away from there doesnt conflict with all these "we will defend allied democracies" slogan

[@PlaYer--sn5or]

@@usbaidigitallife7985 not a US-China war but an everyone vs China war

[@romellejacinto251]

I am a filipino and the Chinese are almost literally on our shores.

[@calmurshyt8090]

China is already on Filipino shores. Duterte should be tried and hyung for treason

[@dennismurphy1021]

I'm sorry I hope you stay free and safe .

[@johntang7852]

@Kent Demesa you can. You just need to make sure a person like the current Chinese lapdog of a president never becomes president of the Philippines again

[@dinoyuan1574]

China are not interested in Philippines

[@ganboonmeng5370]

Why would china..want to eat...American leftover ? Have no fear...nobody is interested in that mess of a nation call Philippine !

[@GL-tp5hg]

Lyle, question for you. Why US defending Israel? It was and is a big risk. Taiwan is a Island, it is more defendable than Israel.

[@calmurshyt8090]

@LIDONG ZHANG Nobody can be as pathetic as you. A Chinese wumao using youtube to spread Chinese propaganda even though is blocked in China

[@gj1234567899999]

To be fair, Israel’s enemies are far weaker than China. Hezbollah, hamas, Syria, and Iran are nothing compared to China.

[@MrJm323]

The United States DOESN'T actively defend Israel -- certainly not in terms of applying direct military force. Give me an example of U.S. military forces entering the fray to assist the Israelis. The assistance the U.S. provides is a) money, b) weapons, and c) its clout in the U.N.. As for Taiwan, the U.S. has on several occasions sent its fleet into the Taiwan Straits, and has intimated that it may DIRECTLY involve its forces to defend the island in the event of an attack by the mainland Chinese government.

[@Liam-pl7rx]

Hi Lyle, An island for defensive purposes is actually more difficult at times to defend. An island has one hundred points of the compass of approach and every sector of the one hundred percent must be protected from a landing by they enemies armies. In another way Lyle you are also correct for your perspective as a small landmass it has many ways to stop an incursion. With such defensive capabilities and with the most modern of weapons and technologies for a small country . Even with a huge military China is not willing to have its Army, Navy and Airforce savaged as it would show the Dragon is not as capable as is portrayed. Regards, Liam

[@AG-kk8mj]

@LIDONG ZHANG it’s not about being pro independence or even pro democracy. Fundamentally it is about being anti communist

[@timmychang1791]

Reading state run propaganda gets you no where.

[@007kingifrit]

did you notice that guy's arguments were like literally parroting china's talking points? pathetic

[@skontejonte]

@@007kingifrit haha yeah, and he has that edgy destiny style debate tactic. Strawman after strawman.

[@007kingifrit]

@LIDONG ZHANG imperfect solution fallacy

[@brianhooper8563]

your talking about American media right??

[@xiaochun-yang7912]

@@brianhooper8563 Yes US media is included because it accept millions of dollar to propagate the state propaganda of China. Such treason by the pro China globalist 🪳 deserves extermination by freedom fighters of the world 🪓🪓🪓

[@akp167]

Bridge Colby and Lyle should do a debate on defensibility of Taiwan because this became a debate on whether we should or not. We need to understand the amount of resources it would take and whether we can mount a successful defense of the Taiwan Strait.

[@ChiefCabioch]

Absurd to think Taiwan is indefensible, especially if the current coalition flotilla of Taiwan, Australia, United States, Britain, Philippines, Japan, Malaysia, remain in the South China sea, and Straits of Taiwan, China's absurd claim that the South China sea and Taiwan straits all belong to China is ridiculous and insane.....

[@ChiefCabioch]

@James Barlow Taiwan says its ready, if Trump is reinstated in August, he'll offer help, and Philippines has never backed up to my knowledge

[@ChiefCabioch]

@James Barlow I've heard nothing of the kind from Britain or anyone saying they were going to sit back and let China plunder their fishing areas, or anything close, even Argentina ran a bunch of Chinese fishing boats out, these countries can't allow China to plunder its ocean resources,

[@ChiefCabioch]

@James Barlow how much do you want to bet Trump is back in August? I'm not sure what cartoon channel your watching, but The Philippines told China they won't back down, and Japan, France, Taiwan, Australia, or any of the others have left the coalition, and you are correct....you are sorry....

[@ChiefCabioch]

@James Barlow who's the P.I. you mean Magnum PI, thats and old TV series.....hardly relevant, much like yourself

[@ChiefCabioch]

@James Barlow Britan has assets in the area, Argentina was running Chinese fishing boats out of their waters, it seems you are clueless

[@svdude1025]

Who will provide US semiconductor if Taiwan taken over by China?

[@pmartin7397]

Yes, start a nuclear war over the availability of computer parts ? That's smart !

[@psycronizer]

That is one of the big reasons that a number of foreign powers will not want to see China get their hands on Taiwan. Many countries with their companies are close business partners with the likes of TSMC and many other electronics producers in Taiwan. If China were to take it, they would find all those other countries quickly falling behind the banner of the U.S. demanding their businesses and I.P. be returned to them. China thinks it could win a war with the U.S. backed multinational coalition, but it fails to realize that all the partners of the U.S. all have a strong vested interest to see this situation resolved VERY quickly, that means a whole shit load of other countries plus the U.S. coming down on them like a hammer, this won't be a long drawn out engagement at all. It will be swift, and decisive. America has had PLENTY of war time experience, and they are exceedingly good at it. China may THINK it's got the numbers etc. etc., but that doesn't mean shit against a war machine that knows exactly what it's doing. China steals I.P. from America, and what they have managed to steal is, frankly, not even close to enough to save their own necks.

[@neverusingthisagain2]

U.s. is building more then 20 semiconductor plants in the u.s. right now. But we should go to war with China if they try and take over Taiwan. Taiwan has the right of self determination

[@neverusingthisagain2]

@LIDONG ZHANG Taiwan belongs to the Taiwanese.

[@jessedaly7847]

Tsmc is way ahead of everyone else, general AI will first arrive on tsmc silicon. The advent of General AI is likely to be every bit as destructive as a nuclear conflict.

[@dgriffen1]

Taiwan is not just culturally associated with China, It has moved on and become incredibly successful in its own right. Taiwan has an incredible tourism industry, an incredible manufacturing industry. It is democratically independent, financially independent and a country that deserves to be acknowledged as a successful country in its on right and that's due to its people. China is jealous and wants it. No different to Hong Kong and look whats happened there. Its people deserve to be looked after and although Taiwan will try and defend, it needs help. If China wins and takes over, manufacturing, Chinas ability to use the tech from Taiwan in its future ventures, its ability to them go for Manilla and the remainder of the South China sea must be looked at as well. China won't stop with Taiwan and don't for one second think otherwise. If the US walks away from this, they may as well walk away from the South China Sea and if that happens, this world may as well bow to China now..

[@manuelvazquez6399]

Taiwan is just a slave republic of occident. Where they get Chips for their tecnology at low cost.and tax free. It's all anout $$$$$$ Taiwan wants to be free go to USA stay there, the land is China land.

[@leezhieng]

More than 60% of Taiwan's total export go to mainland China. Majority of Taiwan's tourism revenue also come from mainland China and Hong Kong. That is hardly "successful" on its own. Their economy is highly dependent on China.

[@richhagenchicago]

@@manuelvazquez6399 if that is your actual name, The CCP has never ruled Taiwan. They have absolutely no reasonable right to invade it or to rule it. They are a democracy, they can elect their own leaders and decide if they want to trade chips or other resources with the U.S. or any other country if they wish. I know that for someone living under an autocracy, and especially for people who have been brainwashed their whole life to believe that China, the Chinese People, and the CCP are one and the same, as well as other untruths such as that Taiwan is an inalienable part of China will find that difficult to understand.

[@petersinclair3997]

@@richhagenchicago So True. Taiwan isn’t on Ming maps, Taiwan was Manchurian in the Qing dynasty, Manchuria lost Taiwan to Japan in 1895. Japan and its territories were under Western occupation 1945-1952, the PRC was founded in 1949.

[@richhagenchicago]

The main point being that the CCP has never ever ruled there.

[@makeupbymochiii]

Lyle " I watch Chinese military propaganda everyday and they say their really strong so it must be true"

[@serk1933]

That's not what he said that's how you interpreted it

[@ChameleonSoul]

That guy is rude AF, interrupting others.

[@caymanhunter2612]

Lol. They are actually pretty strong but China realizes what they have and what the US has isn't comparable. Of course a war would be costly. Taiwan is vital to the US. They are the ONLY democratic Chinese Gov. China's attempted many asymmetric warfare capability. The US does need to change strategies and create it's own extreme deterrences

[@luongo7886]

That Lyle Goldstein moron sounds so stupid and ignorant. So because China is a big regional power in that area that gets them the right to do whatever they want? Using that same logic, the Arabs are a major regional power in the Middle East, so does that mean they can take over Israel?

[@zhuangcorp]

@@luongo7886 Hes not saying China SHOULD invade Taiwan, hes just saying they have the capability. He said many times that its sad, but its just the truth.

[@user-in2be5qv5i]

When China is in the West it acts black but when it is in the East it acts white

[@zil1832]

weirdly it makes sense! But weirdly.

[@joeymurdazalotmore6355]

Who dosent

[@johntang7852]

@@joeymurdazalotmore6355 people who have suffered from communism

[@shawnv123]

@@johntang7852 shut the fuck up liberal

[@michaelbee2165]

@@shawnv123 He's a liberal? Anyway, I see your 'firm' grasp of the history and the issues has yet to translate into any coherent counter argument.

[@walkerzven4972]

this smells like some Chinese scheme to win without having to fight for Taiwan

[@konsyjes]

sure does, doesn't it?

[@richhagenchicago]

Maybe, or at least to deter others from coming to the aid of Taiwan should they invade.

[@augustinepan7991]

This is the best option with the peaceful unification retaining same political system except defence.

[@konsyjes]

@@augustinepan7991 That's a ridiculous statement. First of all, don't just claim something "is the best option" as if you know the ultimate answer. Second of all, ... Ok how about "peaceful unification" under the Taiwan government, with the CCP peacefully dissolving and agreeing to stand trial for crimes against humanity? Then the ROC can peacefully be reestablished on the entire territory of mainland China how about that? Sounds peaceful to me ;)

[@richhagenchicago]

@@augustinepan7991 I think that allowing countries to annex territory by threat or use of force is a bad idea that will lead to a bigger war. I would not sacrifice the freedom of a whole nation on the promise of a government that has just broken such a promise in Hong Kong. If they invade we go to war in the U.S. It is on them if they want to star the next World War.

[@johnjm3806]

China is able overthrow the Taiwanese democratic government because of national security so USA should also be able to overthrow the Cuban communist government because of national security. USA is unable to overthrow the Cuban communist government so China should also be unable to overthrow the Taiwanese democratic government

[@oceanhy62326]

How can apple be compared to orange? These are totally two different scenario. By using the logics these debators did in the vid (if US give up, how would allies think), if US overthrown Cuba, how would all the rest of the same/similar types of countries of communist in the world think? They will do nothing but unite against US, because they worry about to be the next. This is not US wants to see. Plus in this topic, Taiwan is a chess between two major power. For Cuba, what s the major vicinal power behind it? Does it worth an elephant's time and effort to intentionally step and crush an ant 1 ft next?

[@johnjm3806]

@@oceanhy62326 USA should care about the world reaction to an overthrow of the Cuban communist government so China should also care about the world reaction to an overthrow of the Taiwanese democratic communist government. China does not care about the world reaction to its overthrow of the Taiwanese democratic communist government so USA also does not care about the world reaction to its overthrow of the Cuban communist government

[@lagrangewei]

US does not regard Cuba as an american state. a better comparison is how american overthrow the hawaiian kingdom.

[@alanOHALAN]

except Cuban was never part of USA.

[@LSC69]

Taiwan does not have the legal right to being a legitimate state. It was forced out of the UN by a vote by the peoples of the world. Its existence completely depends on China's mercy. If Taiwan wants to survive its only chance is to beg the PRC to allow it to and pay for war reparations from the Chinese civil war.

[@johnyan836]

I am a Taiwanese. A few questions and comments: 1) Taiwan is the most successful example under the US influence after WWII ~ politically, technologically, and economically . Taiwan is a shining pride for the US to showcase the undeveloped countries in the world what the US "value" can bring to them. Especially politically: Taiwan peacefully transits from dictatorship to the best democracy in Asia. 2) To say that China will have thousands of airplane and helicopters on Day 1 of invasion is wrong. China does not have "that" many such equipment. Furthermore, at least 1/2 of them will be on the ground for maintenance and preparing and, don't forget, China has to keep an eye on India, Vietnam, and even Japan, N. Korea, and Russia. 3) Either China or the combination of Taiwan/Japan/US loses the air supremacy, the war is over and it takes only days not weeks. 4) China heavily depends on imports of oil, electronic chips, and food. If the war erupts all of the above will be cut off. 5) The modern weapon capability is very deadly, accurate, and far reaching. Chinese naval vessels dare not show up in Taiwan Strait as long as the various anti-ship weapons in Taiwan are not eliminated. 6) If China loses the initial air battles, CCP may face uprising of internal opposition or the doubt of Chinese people. The risk is too great for CCP. 7) US and allies are capable of sealing off the Chinese seaports with modern sea mines. 8) Unless Taiwanese military surrenders, Chinese military forces will face more than one million armed resistance and average one tank/armored vehicle in every 250 meters. 9) To say China will use thousands of missiles/rockets to level off Taiwan is inaccurate. If China does not have the capability to land at least 500,000 soldiers in Taiwan in a week (to put Taiwan under complete control), what is the meaning of the bombardment? 10) To believe CCP does not have the intent to extend its influence beyond Taiwan is innocent. Xi has said many times the concept of the "Community of Common Human Destiny". CCP is proud of themselves and wants to bring its ideology to "benefit" all humankind. In conclusion, air supremacy is the KEY. The Chinese air forces is no match to the US/Japan/Taiwan combined. (I know Japan may NOT participate the war but Chinese must include it as the worst scenario. )

[@kirovfactory]

very good argument. I think China can ramp up military spending by 3 times for a couple of years and see if situation gets better. mind you China's current military expenditure is at only 1.7% gdp

[@johnyan836]

@@kirovfactory Also I would like to mention that China's debt is exceeding three times of its GDP. The cost of "maintaining stability" is equal to or exceeding its military budget.

[@jibintotonejhungnational8408]

Taiwan need Missile Rocket launchers Missiles and more rocket launchers Anti- missile Anti- rocket And more anti-missiles More anti- rockets And that location support technology!

[@Sandals578]

@@jibintotonejhungnational8408 the island is packed with artillery already but more would sure help a lot. Looking at the situation in Ukraine I would say explosive drones are doing wonders too.

[@prioris55555]

It is clear that both the FOR guys are chinese shills. There is too much to talk about in what they said. They should go live in China. One said we should be working with China on pandemic and global warming. Global warming is a monumental political scientific fraud. Covid threat/shutdown/masks was another fraud. He talked about the opium history and past history. That is all irrelevant. It is only about what Taiwanese want. Xi Ping and Putin use the same ancient territories con job They are psychopath bosses of mafia states. If China uses nuke weapons, they should be obliterated too. Nukes are about mutual assured destruction. If one is not going to follow thru then the weapons are useless. Raising the nuke issue is about covert psyops on US people. His military assessment is suspect also. Taiwan is clearly the first domino. China has made that clear in their actions. The china mafia will bully the rest of that region including australia as we see now. Those FOR guys are full of shite The problem with the domino argument in 1950s and on was that the western anticommunists in US were themselves violent psychopaths just like Putin by carrying out mass murder around the world there will be 2.2 million taiwanese reserves they will have to face. many chinese soldiers will be cannon fodder aka "matyrs" and many will know that.

[@john2000young]

If you fight China, don't fight alone. Got the whole free world for fight together.

[@johnb5254]

Yea, good luck fighting a nuclear power.

[@alanOHALAN]

yes happy to end all your "free" world. Go live free in underworld.

[@internetmall2]

South China's a bunch of fish and rocks WITH" billions of barrels of natural gas and natural resources you forgot to mention the natural gas and resources OPPPS

[@MelaninMagdalene]

@Mark Chin Countries are turning down deals with the US to work with China.

[@xenovax7772]

@@MelaninMagdalene Literally no one is doing that when the great decoupling is now well and truly underway. The only ones who would sell their souls to the China devil are those evil enough to trade blood for $$$

[@abishekraju4521]

@@xenovax7772 Which is most businesses in the world and unfortunately for you, a lot of those big businesses are American. Everyone's thirsty for the China market, and they don't even hesitate to hide it, its almost disgusting. Business and professional ethics gone to shit.

[@abishekraju4521]

ikr. That guy's grossly underestimating everything except the Chinese military capability which makes it seem like he's selectively oversimplifying things backed by some sort of agenda. Now obviously, debates always have some agenda, but in this particular case I feel the agenda fueling his arguments may not be very related to the debate at all.

[@AngelosGT]

@Mark Chin 😂😂😂

[@Carolline323]

Taiwan is not the part of China because Native People have lived for almost 10000 years. It is more earlier and different than Chinese Culture . But now mainland China is Communism not Chinese Culture . So,from history,Taiwan is not the part of China ，it should be called,Formosa.

[@suanhak]

Communism and Chinese Culture is 2 different thing. Chinese cultures is 1000s of yrs old. Get your facts right. Formosa was named given by Portuguese. During Ming dynasty, long before the Portuguese came, Koxinga was already in Taiwan. You may not like communism..just don't change the bloody fact. Check your forefather tomb stone and see what written on it.

[@Carolline323]

@@suanhak I just want to say ,Chinese Culture did not teach you to invade other’s places by any kinds of force. Moderation is a good way.

[@Carolline323]

@@suanhak My families had beat with many nations historically. History will occur again by karma?My Gran grandmother is from Netherland . Help Taiwanese,please.

[@suanhak]

We Chinese don't need your help. We solve our own problem. Chinese don't kill Chinese. Period . Is the US and the West who are shit stirrer

[@Carolline323]

@H L Ingenious Culture

[@justinlance4174]

Tiawan is very defensible. As any island is. We are obligated to defend tiawan. After we got them to denuclearize. We will defend our allies.

[@EntertheDragonChild]

Who cares we defended Kuwait, Israel and Korea before

[@kingeric6570]

china has some nerve whining about America being too close to taiwan when it wants to build a military base a few thousand kilometrs from Hawaii. Pot kettle black

[@santsuma]

China has already MANY military bases some thousands of kilometers from Hawaii, I mean... inside China.

[@greenbrickbox3392]

Lol seriously China should have thought harder before existing in close proximity to so many US bases and naval fleets

[@kingeric6570]

@@santsuma I meant the new base that it wants to build in Kiribati. I wasn’t referring the bases that China wants to build within its own territory. That’s obvious to every one...but you

[@kingeric6570]

@@greenbrickbox3392 they wouldn’t need to be there if it wasn’t for the stupid antics of your government

[@greenbrickbox3392]

@@kingeric6570 which government would that be lol

[@stopwarstop7334]

Taiwan should be defended. If China takes Taiwan they will take up all the whole South China Sea next. This means that no country can navigate in the South China Sea without permission. Not only US but the rest of the countries Vietnam, India, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand will not allow that.

[@truthmatters2782]

Remember the Vietnam war? If South Vietnam falls to the communists all South East Asia will fall. Guess what, Vietnam is now reunited, and they are actually our allies. And yes they are communists like China is. Now the same argument arises. If Taiwan (which is recognised by us as part of China) loses the civil war the rest of Asia will follow. How about respecting different forms of government, like they do, and live in mutual respect, prosperity and win win.

[@bbyl1485]

Taiwan also claims it owns entire South China sea, so is Vietnam and Philippine. All 4 claimed they own entire South China sea.

[@tonypeterson5316]

USA has friends and allies all over the world, does that mean they should be involved in every single war? Besides, since they already recognize Taiwan as a Chinese territory, they should just let them unify peacefully.

[@AccordGTR]

"a bunch of rocks and fish"?! Goldstein is a joke.

[@ayoutuber2307]

@Ping T ccp is not iraq or north korea because it is even WORSE than iraq or north korea. Beaten by india, limp back to owner in beijing with the tail between the legs but stick the tongue out as if nothing happened. That is why CCP rhyme with DOG

[@cahsieh5380]

@Ping T Chinese military doctrine is cannon fodder strategy. For every Chinese soldier and tank mowed down for target practice by Taiwanese and alliance machine guns, Harbin Aircraft Industry Group stock value increase by 1%

[@cahsieh5380]

@Ping T If war shall have the nuclear end then tell your President Jinping he has better alternative for his time than to start war like clean toilets and eat shit

[@peterwan9076]

Goldstein is a professor at the US Naval War college. I wonder what kind of Navy US will have under this professor.

[@peterwan9076]

Britain was a sea power in the 19th century because it control the sea lanes. According to Goldstein, the sea lanes are just rocks and fish and therefore US should NOT spend effort in maintaining these sea lanes. US might as well retreat back to her coastlines. What kind of Naval War college US has these days?

[@JoseRuiz-ng3qs]

You can't regain Taiwan if you never had it. Duh.

[@tupolevi]

Go back to school and try not to skip classes please.

[@touchme211]

@@tupolevi LOL ccp never ruled the island of Taiwan. You should try to skip your chinese propaganda classes please

[@tupolevi]

@@touchme211 Based on what capacity of yours to speak on that matter? Facts: The United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 was passed in response to the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 1668 that required any change in China's representation in the UN be determined by a two-thirds vote referring to Article 18[1] of the UN Charter. The resolution, passed on 25 October 1971, recognized the People's Republic of China (PRC) as "the ONLY legitimate representative of China to the United Nations" and removed the collective representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the United Nations.[2]

[@JoseRuiz-ng3qs]

Taiwan has never really been a part of China. It is independent. China can't regain it if it never really had it. I lived there for 17 years. My kids live there now. Taiwan in not part of China.

[@tupolevi]

@@JoseRuiz-ng3qs 17 years staycation in taiwan doesn't make one the head of all the representatives in the United Nation Organisation or become the Almighty God on earth!

[@marniesunshine611]

Goldstien is a ccp speaker i suspect this guy.

[@eugene9661]

His statics are pathetically wrong.

[@1017-y9x]

He even said it himself, he brainwashes himself with Chinese military propaganda everyday lol

[@knowsmebyname]

I would add his eye contact was awful. His tone was not convincing. He looked like a guy bought and paid for who finds himself doing something that he doesnt believe in. Look at him around the 17:10 mark having made his first comments. Confident? I think not. He looks a bit ashamed. His comments regarding the horrible, awful, despicable treatment during world war 2 are relevant...to japan. But Taiwan?

[@TropicalEnterpriseLLC]

There's a lot of professors and speakers in the China "thinktank" space that get funding from China. Goldstein is one of them.

[@knowsmebyname]

@Hang Tuah any person of any country of any pollitical system that would turn on his people for money is vile and disgusting. An irredeemable scumbag. You know this is true.

[@Steve-io4vp]

This is fascinating to watch in 2022, after Russia invaded Ukraine. It shows how quickly things can change. The context of this debate was a West in retreat -- Trump had bashed NATO and destroyed US diplomatic power, Biden pulled out of Afghanistan, China was still ascendant... That's now been flipped on its head. The West is standing firm against Russian aggression and Ukraine, a county much-less defensible than Taiwan, is winning its war. And now China, while still rising and strong, is revealing major social and economic cracks.

[@tonyt9656]

What makes you think ukraine is winning? And what makes you think Ukraine is much less defensible than Taiwan?

[@akp167]

Ukraine is taking Russia to the cleaners. The only reason this war isn’t over is because Putin would rather eat nails than withdraw. The estimates of Russia’s casualties are staggering. It’s over for them. Just a question of when. Taiwan is a bit different. It is harder to defend for the US but also harder to take for China.

[@headolf8546]

@@akp167 时间站在中国人这边，西方人要打趁现在😂

[@alfredawomi2340]

Lyle what exactly do you mean when you said, China is embrassed for not having a major war in a long time, as if some kind of thing that is so scarce or rare to have it.

[@watsonbrown5456]

@Lum inosity infrastructure development that will eventually benefit China. There is no such thing as a free lunch

[@goldtiger2485]

In Taiwan, the President is elected by the people. Now Ms. Tsai Ing-wen is the president of Republic of China.

[@andrewmah5605]

Is the World STILL Under Red Under the BED of McCathyism of The Cold War Era of the U.S.S.R ?

[@Nathan-jh1ho]

@LIDONG ZHANG if you're implying the CCP has changed into something not much different than the KMT during the 40s. Nationalist and state capitalist. Just with a facade of Communism and Marxism. Then what is the rationale of CCP holding power? If all they did was circle back 70 years later with 80 million dead. They will loose legitimacy of overthrowing the ROC gov.

[@fengkuangyu7116]

look at their constitution, the territory of ROC still includes the mainland CHINA.

[@Nathan-jh1ho]

@@fengkuangyu7116 yes, and if they change that the PRC will absolutely freak out. Only country on earth who will declare war on somone for not claiming their land

[@fengkuangyu7116]

​@@Nathan-jh1ho Yes, China is freaking out, lol. A status quo is not the blame of the one side. China haters like you are ass hole...

[@dontbedumb111]

Just want to point out that Taiwan is not a "US ally". We have no treaty with them as we do with the Philippines or Japan. There may be good reasons to maintain "strategic ambiguity" and prepare to defend Taiwan in the case of a conflict, but there is no treaty obligation to do so. This is not an either/or proposition - just surrender or nuclear war. If China attacks it's likely to be initially through grayzone tactics and maybe a blockade. Bombing Taiwan to the ground doesn't benefit them. So there should be room for negotiation.

[@dancerinmaya6813]

Colby: 9 dash-line--it was inherited from the ROC (the Taiwan you want to sacrifice 20k Americans to defend, and will lose)--except that ROC has 11 dash line. Did you have any objections?

[@davidherr7808]

The freedom that Taiwan has is worth defending. Preventing the world from suffrage under Communism is what is at stake. Not today or tomorrow but down the line that is where appeasement takes us. To prevent war we should create a mutual defense treaty with Japan, India, Australia, U.S., Philippines, South Korea and Taiwan. The treaty need not address Taiwan independence to save Chinese face.

[@louisho7493]

Suffrage under communism? With respect to China's version of communism, it's been remarkably successful for their country. They've lifted millions out of poverty and has consistently raised the standard of living for it's citizens. They have better infrastructure than the United States. It's really incredible what they have accomplished.

[@johntang7852]

@@louisho7493 and your point is? Hitler built great roads. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE have built countries in the desert. Mussolini made sure trains ran on time. Yes China has lifted millions out of poverty (same with democratic India) but let’s not start thinking communism is the best thing since sliced bread

[@louisho7493]

@@johntang7852 No one is saying it's perfect. But my point is where is the "suffering" under the Chinese system of Communism? In terms of prosperity, it seems to be very successful. And they're not actively bombing several countries like the US. So what's the issue?

[@johntang7852]

@@louisho7493 that Germans did not complain when Hitler built great roads and Italians did not complain when Mussolini made sure trains ran on time does not mean there was no suffering under those systems; they just weren’t visible. And note: we are not talking about suffering under Chinese communism, we are talking about suffering under communism in general, under communism if it was to be applied to non communist societies. It’s record on Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang and the way China goes after non-communist beliefs and believers gives more than enough proof that Taiwan can and must reject Chinese communism

[@thomasho4427]

All the US allies trade with China so self-interests come first.

[@TheIpadkiller]

The reality is that our success or failure at protecting anybody in any part of the world depends on the strength of our backing from allies. If and only if China is convinced that multiple nations will declare war on China if it invades Taiwan will China be deterred.

[@forestmcneir3325]

No one will stand up for Taiwan. NO ONE! Taiwan's only shot at survival is ballistic missile submarines with nuclear armed ballistic and cruise missiles.

[@0dyss3us51]

@@forestmcneir3325 you are wronger than wrong, the world already is coming together to discuss it.

[@forestmcneir3325]

@@0dyss3us51 Interesting. By "world," who specifically?

[@ConstitutionalConservative888]

Tags NOLA Australia Britain and Japan have said they will attack china if it attacks Taiwan yet the Americans with all their power can't commit, America is such a pussy.

[@willembecker957]

@@ConstitutionalConservative888 You are delusive. Japan will not attack, as it has a defensive set up of their navy. Britain is to far and the number of ships they can send will be too small, and Australia is too small. America is not a pussy, they use their brains. Taiwan is too close to mainland China. The aircraft carriers cannot come too close to the mainland, so that will limit the reach of its fighter planes due to a possible massive missile attack on the aircraft carrier.

[@aleksandrretnev2220]

The case of standing with Taiwan or not will be like the 1938-Munich Agreement all over again, and we know which side should be supported...

[@GaryLa585]

🙏Taiwan 🇹🇼 is a democratic China, established in 1912. It is never being part of Communist China🇨🇳. China should backoff & leave Taiwan alone, Respecting human right. Taiwan has a right to form any government it deems fit.

[@sivarthd9513]

why is opposing Chinese foreign policy anti Asian racism? I have never heard of anyone say opposing American or European policy is anti Caucasian racism

[@isiahsteele7418]

Because western Colonizers are Racist and have conquered non white Countries and subvert those non whites and now the colonizers are acting like victims!! That’s why.

[@sivarthd9513]

@@isiahsteele7418 your implied assertion that Asians cannot be racist to Caucasians or anyone else who is non Asian is quite frankly one of the most racist things i have ever heard. And this is coming from somebody who is Asian (West Asian)

[@kristislonka4066]

@@isiahsteele7418 i hope you're trolling

[@oldlee2706]

@@isiahsteele7418 everyone is racist.

[@isiahsteele7418]

@@oldlee2706 Everybody did not go around the world conquering and slaughtering. What is your definition of racist? Mine: One race of people , dominating over the culture and existence of an other people of different backgrounds. Domination over all civil and financial institutions. Other than Africa, what independent Black Country you know of? Africa too is still occupied by foreign powers out of Europe. White folks have Africon in Africa. Could Africans build a military out post in the EU? That’s racism. Not your woke definition where you claim victim hood!

[@krisgregg4429]

I have a feeling Mr Goldstein is on the Chinese payroll

[@ostevoostevo8989]

He's certainly bought into all of its propaganda.

[@syncsummit]

@krissgregg indeed, that's not much of a stretch of belief.

[@dortiapewpew7445]

Based on IntelligenceSquared Debates, Prof. Golstein is a Research Professor, China Maritime Studies Institute, U.S. Naval War College. So he is on the US government's payroll. Are you accusing him of treason just because he participates in a debate and on the FOR side?

[@billyjoesmo8251]

Most definitely this guy got a suitcase full of money no doubt

[@alanOHALAN]

nah, he is just honest. You can't face a strong China. So go fuck yourself.

[@davewhiteside6164]

Here's the reason to defend the democratic country of Taiwan......this debate . Only in a democratic country you can have a debate like this. If the USA are not willing to defend it then we may as well give up. There has to be more international collaboration on the issue especially the EU countries need to do more to stand up for what they believe in. Many businesses and therefore countries are being bought by China. U.S.A has to use its influence while it still has it.

[@lung8143]

if the US is going to come to taiwan, at least do something good by toppling the corrupt DPP regime here and replacing it with a CLEAN and COMPETENT leader, instead of working with this piece of sh8t called the DPP administration. I'd even trade the DPP administration for alien invaders if I had a choice. thats how bad they are

[@Bunderwahl]

Wow, when doing military debates, you should include military minds is my biggest take away. Taiwan is EXTREMELY defendable, you could not pick a better place. Only ten percent of the island is accessible for a seaborne invasion. It is mostly, mountain, swamp, and urban which historically the best terrains for defense. ROC has been digging in and fortifying the areas that can be invaded for more then 50 years. Amphibious landings are the most complicated and difficult types of assault there is, and something China has NO experience with, in addition with each of its forays against its neighbors it has preformed abysmally even in winning they take a bloody nose against far weaker countries. You can not discount that a large portion of CCP troops are conscript grade with knock offs of 60's weaponry with no real skin in the game that will be jumping off boats under heavy concentrated fire from well dug in and prepared troops that are highly motivated. Finally it is absurd just to compare numbers. The number of ships, planes, men, and tanks that can be brought to bare is the only number that counts. Taiwan has a professional military on the other hand armed by the US with weaponry superior to what China has. They have every reason to stand and fight. The Mary Washington professor quoted Von Clausewitz, I want to quote another brilliant military mind, one studied thousand of years after his death Sun Tzu --"Confront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory." They are in an island fortress with a hundred mile moat. The CCP will need months to assemble a force so there is no surprise to either the US or ROC. With meager transport China will have to cross that distance with mines, submarines, air attacks, anti ship missiles, surface ships, and finally long range artillery. The next phase for the CCP is landing troops and establishing a beachhead under constant withering fire in a place totally unfamiliar to the troops making the landing. They need to capture or set up a port, and all this is the easy part. They have to not only hold the beach and the port, they have to supply and reinforce those troops. Each ship lost in the crossing and landing will compound the problem of doing this, and there will be heavy losses. Not only will they less assets, those assets will have less room for reinforcements since they will have to carry food, ammo, and fuel to those already landed, each soldier already in Taiwan require these supplies to continue fighting, each crossing will see losses to the navy compounding this problem. Any area they conquer will face partisan forces and counter attacks, even if China were to win, controlling the island would be difficult to impossible. China can also not concentrate its forces solely on Taiwan as they have plenty of scraps with their neighbors, minorities and aggrieved population within its borders, and annexed countries that are already unhappy -not to mention US allies that might join in the fight such as Japan and Korea. Now to address some on the panel "What evidence do you have that China would go beyond Taiwan?" They have said so, that is good enough for me, they claim part of the Philippines, Japanese islands, territory of both Koreas and much more, they see these islands as "parts of China" so the arguments for and against defending Taiwan also apply here as well. The south china sea being rich in resources is not what is important, it is not about "fish" or "oil" it is about the sea lanes that are vital to everyone, that is what they are striving to control, shipping routes. China, Korea, and Japan are heavily dependent on Mideast oil, these routes could be used to bully Japan and Korea which China has not hesitated to do. As was also pointed out, that first island chain is the gate that contains China, Taiwan's fall would then put US territory, Australia, New Zealand, and other allies in danger or at least subject to intimidation and blackmail. Now as to whether the US should support Taiwan and what it might cost. Much would depend on China. Things could start off as limited war and escalate, but I don't think that is likely because that would hurt the US, it would hurt the CCP more. My best guess is there would be no US ground forces; the US would be much better served by cutting off trade to China including oil that it depends on, freezing accounts, marshalling our allies, providing war materials and intelligence, turning back Chinese ships and planes, mining the approaches. If that is not enough or fails attacking the invading forces directly with air, submarine, and missile strikes. It is far fetched to think American ground forces would be employed (or needed) and an invasion of China is certainly not on the table. China might get lucky and sink a carrier, but I think that would be a huge danger to them because that would stiffen the US resolve and would result in the US military being unleashed. American losses would probably be limited to ships and planes. Carrier groups most likely would stay out of range for all but ballistic missiles and while China processes them, they haven't demonstrated the proficiency to use them. even if they had it, I am sure the navy has tricks up its' sleeves. That brings up another point, do not judge Chinas strength by what it says, that is for internal consumption, and to frighten foreigners. So with China declared to take on America in Asia first, then the world for dominance, what better place then Taiwan? What better time then now? If we wont draw the line there -a free market democracy are we really going to challenge them when they decide to grab some Philippine or Japanese islands? Where will the line be drawn, Australia? Hawaii? California? Taiwan is the gate that keeps the CCP contained. Taiwan supplies the parts needed for everything from smart phones to computers, to cars, to our fighter aircraft. We do not have to fight China, all we have to do is to convince them that they would lose such a fight, and even if they didn't they still lose. Signaling we will abandon Taiwan is the surest way to entice China to attack it, failing to win such a war could very well lead to the fall of the communist party and would at LEAST bring about the downfall of Xi and this is the TRUE reason he has not got his feet wet. America does not have to win, we just need to make sure Taiwan does not lose. Does America have the will to fight? I sure hope so, but hope we wont have too. Might want to consider Chinas will as well though. When the body bags with their one son start piling up the question is will the Chinese population stay with the party, what will happen to world opinion and support for China be like if they engage in such a bloody endeavor and what will those costs be? What happens when the oil and trade stops?

[@alexlazar4738]

I don't think you actually watched the video. There was only one military analyst on the panel and he declared Taiwan indefensible …the rest were basically politicians. What you write about China being weak and backward while at the same time being hellbent on world domination and wanting to invade Japan, Philippines, Australia, Hawaii, California.... WTF??? Just go easy on the beer and Murdoch media.

[@Bunderwahl]

@@alexlazar4738 I think your comprehension or current events are lacking, possibly both " In July 2016, the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague issued its ruling on a claim brought against China by the Philippines under UNCLOS, ruling in favor of the Philippines on almost every count. While China is a signatory to the treaty, which established the tribunal, it refuses to accept the court’s authority." (Global Conflict Tracker 2021); "China has laid claim to the chain of uninhabited islands that lie 1,200 miles (1,900 kilometers) southwest of Tokyo since the 1970s, when oil reserves were first deteced around the area. Japan administers and controls the island, as part of Ishigaki in Okinawa Prefecture." (International Business times Oct 2021) If you read you will see I never said China wanted to "invade" AU, Hawaii, or or California -I said that "where will we draw the line if not Taiwan?" But to Australia "In May, the editor-in-chief of Beijing’s Global Times newspaper, which generally reflects the views of the Chinese Communist Party, threatened Australia with ‘retaliatory punishment’ with missile strikes ‘on the military facilities and relevant key facilities on Australian soil’ if we were to send Australian troops to coordinate with the US and wage war with China over Taiwan." (The strategist Jul 2021) As for being hellbent "The Global Times called on People's Liberation Army Navy warships to travel to "U.S. military bases in the Asia-Pacific and the U.S. allies' coastlines to conduct close-in reconnaissance operations and declare freedom of navigation." The editorial added that "the U.S. will definitely see the PLA show up at its doorstep in the not-too-distant future." (Washington Examiner (Sept 2021). Lastly it was three professors and one ex department of defense employee (who argued FOR defending Taiwan) so you are wrong on every count...

[@alexlazar4738]

@@Bunderwahl The suit to the the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague was initiated by a US law firm by the request of the US government, not by Philippines. The arbitration requires both parties to agree to the arbitration which China did not do so it is invalid.. All 20 million dollars in expenses (bribe) were paid by the US government not by the Philippines. At the same time the US has not ratified Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) so why should China abide by it if the US does not (rules-based order??). Philippines rarely if ever mentions this "ruling" and is willing to come to terms with China but the US is meddling in it. Realistically, in spite of Chinas historical claims South China sea is international waters, but everyone was grabbing it (Vietnam, Philippines Brunei>>) so China as a latecomer to the game but being the biggest grabbed the biggest part but in reality did not grab anyone's territory because it belonged to no-one (as great powers go this not a big deal). They offered to Obama to make it a demilitarized zone but Obama refused because he wanted the US military to control the South ch8na sea. So China militarized the islands in response. As for East China sea the matter is crystal clear. Senkaku/Diaoyu islands were occupied by Japan in WW2 and never returned to China. If Japan has claims to them it means that Japan never lost the war and can claim Philippines, Singapore . Malesia..etc As for the three panelists, they may have professor titles but they have no clue about military affairs. I'll take the opinion of the guy who reads Chinese military journals and watch Chinese military TV everyday for two decades over their opinion any day. . Finally, the US ships are in Taiwanese straight, there are no Chinese ships in the gulf of Mexico.... and 800 US bases strangle the world but somehow China is a threat??

[@jbl3792]

well said

[@piranha3037]

Taiwan can easily be defended. These are the steps. 1. Supply nukes to Taiwan and suitable delivery system covertly. 2. India, Vietnam and many other countries are resisting PRC. Pass critical military technologies so that new fronts could be successfully opened up. 3. Provide SSNs technology to India, Japan as it has been done to Australia. 4. Provide military assistance to India as it resists PRC. 5. Build up alliances. Strengthen QUAD, AUKUS. 6. Show-off massive strength. 7. Build up Malacca choke point militarization. 8. Build alliance with Kyrgyzstan. It has Military disputes with PRC. Build up a string of Pearls around China consisting of Countries having border disputes with China. All these moves, if pursued violently and single mindedly would deter China. America would be history if China takes Taiwan. No country will take America seriously if Taiwan is taken away by China.

[@jessech2218]

the U.S. interest in the Pacific rim is vital to the world and its allies in Europe. if China took the democratic island of Taiwan, what would happen is causing instability of the region. this is not the U.S. would like to see in future. why is instability. After the Chinese victory of the invasion, it will shows its military might to the regional countries, and it may reshape the region influence. this is not a benefit to the U.S. interest. Taiwan is 5,000 mile from Hawaii, and we look back the Pacific theater in WWII. we will agree the importance of military strategy. the U.S. could ignore the strategy when China was ruled in Qing dynasty (1912 ended). Today's China is different, they have competitive technology in its military. when President Carter cut the diplomat relationship with Taiwan, he saw the U.S. defense line against The Soviet Union could be push back on the USSR back door. it might be not a case in the modern world now.

[@lung8143]

if the US is going to come to taiwan, at least do something good by toppling the corrupt DPP regime here and replacing it with a CLEAN and COMPETENT leader who doesn't encourage pogroms of certain ethnic groups, instead of working with this piece of sh8t called the DPP administration. I'd even trade the DPP administration for alien invaders if I had a choice. thats how bad they are

[@hughmungus2760]

@@lung8143 this whole mainland vs taiwan escalation wouldn't have happened if the DPP didn't get elected in the first place.

[@lung8143]

@@hughmungus2760 exactly. beijing and taipei were chill when Ma Ying jeou was still in power before DPP politicians came around to piss everyone off

[@hughmungus2760]

@@lung8143 the DPP deliver nothing and are using the ongoing hostility and fear to justify their existance, Trump's republican party copycat.

[@lung8143]

@@hughmungus2760 yup. DPP politicians are enticing CPC-fear mongering just to distract taiwanese populace from being attentive to taiwans internal problems at hand from DPP mismanagement and corruption

[@AccordGTR]

I disagree Chinese rocket force will level Taiwan. Remember US tried bombing North Vietnam into the stone age. Look what happened.

[@pixel8ated]

The real reason the CCP wants Taiwan is they make the best chips (my PC has hench ASUS motherboard and RTX gfx card from Taiwan) and tech in the World and bombing it flat defeats the object, China desperately needs to get it's hand on advanced tech now it got caught stealing everyone elsesintellectual property, coz it just cant innovate in the mental strait jacket it's scientists and thinkers are forced to wear.

[@alfong8279]

So, have we won in Vietnam, pray tell?

[@aiGeis]

There was a DMZ AND limited amounts of allowable collateral damage, it was nowhere near the level of say, the Tokyo firebombing. Both countries absolutely can make enough munitions to effectively genocide 80% of either country without going nuclear.

[@pixel8ated]

@@aiGeis I don't think people realise that we were Blitzed for years in the UK, not days, not weeks and not even months. So with the U boats stopping supplies and food coming in, with no internet or phones back then we stood alone, and mate we did stand. Don't ever underestimate the UK. God bless, I hope you never suuffer that kind of carnage. Russia alone understands what we endured.

[@pixel8ated]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHbQepSGgc6ir7s

[@itsdredakid]

The semiconductor issue is major. If it's possible for the US to not take a major blow and to get up to speed in the necessary amount of time for production of the semiconductors then we would have already done that in the US. It is not cheap production currently and Taiwan essentially have a monopoly on the advanced chips. There's chips in literally everything we use daily not including the advanced tech for national security purposes that are all made in Taiwan. To concede this to the CCP is not a good idea whatsoever in my opinion. How to go about deterring that is a different question. But the chips are major. Without that the hit to the US and the world will be unthinkable if under CCP control.

[@robertmacdonnell258]

We never should have become dependent upon Taiwan for our semiconductors and the technology. Get out asap and take the knocks for state of the art during peacetime.

[@robertmacdonnell258]

@ Not buying it.

@@robertmacdonnell258 As in.....?

[@aiGeis]

Yep, absolutely critical for us to have the access to the latest EUV nodes for uhm, what again? Oh right, Apple productsssssss. Give your head a shake you know-nothing.

[@robertmacdonnell258]

@@aiGeis I don't DO fruit.

[@franciszamora9369]

I bet the U.S. will not come to Taiwan's rescue.

[@zerosugar8026]

I guarantee they won't. Plans to build a chip factory in the US. They may bomb Taiwan before China

[@alexlazar4738]

@@zerosugar8026 You are right. In case of the invasion the first thing the US will bomb is TSMC.

[@Birch37]

The US joined both world wars at the end after allies were almost bankrupt (and then profited from their demise) so there should be no assumptions that the US will defend anyone. Tiawan doesn't need to completely defend itself. Assuming air supremacy is the first goal. With enough Tiawanese air defences there maybe enough Chinese air asset loses that the cost will outweigh the cause. This in turn may result in too much instability and risk to the CCP hold on power. China would also lose trade with countries all around the world. Having a population of 1.4 million also means you need food and secure trade routes. Nuclear weapons have no leverage. China has ZERO military experience and very few allies. China is more likely to lose in any conflict. Any war with Tiawan doesn't make any sense....

[@cuddlemuffin.9545]

What allies? You mean debt slaves?

[@douglasbeaulac1626]

The sense is that the CCP has publicly declared that the PLA prepare for war with Taiwan. To back out would be a serious blow to the CCP'S pretendious pride (!loss of face) in front of the entire world but even more importantly at home.

[@samalenyo]

You are completely delusioned with your westerm propaganda that America and its puppets a.k.a allies has the capability to wage war and can come and go completely unscathed. 1. Your 3rd rate american public education may even hide the truth about Korean War but that is the time PR CHINA completely kick out your US Led forces into going near the CHINA-NK Border. Your US led forces completely ignored the warnings of very poor and undeveloped CHINA back then to not cross the red line and they handed your US Led forces asses back to southern border. It shows that even poor CHINA back then can even do a stalemate war with your US forces including your puppet allies. Let see, if US and its allies can match the modern CHINA considering its large technological and industrial capacity. 2. CHINA's Unification is more important than anything in CHINA. In fact it is in their constitution. Losing Taiwan is akin to losing the PR CHINESE Constitution and credibility of CHINA's Govt. 3. CHINA is waiting patiently and doing its best to resolved the unification diplomatically. However, if anything crosses the red line like Taiwan declaring independence and US along its puppet allies militarizing/putting a base in Taiwan will give no choice for CHINA to put all the cards including the military takeover on the island.

[@llepsnaci1]

IQ2 really dropped the ball on this one. There's no way they could have a productive debate with a compulsive appeaser and a literal ccp mouthpiece in the debate. Shame on IQ2 for helping spread Chinese propaganda.

[@stevenmitchell7830]

It is a pity that the FOR team don't debate the question of defensible, but instead devolve into the question of whether it should be defended by the US and its allies.

[@badgerlife9541]

Tell you everything you need to know about how this will go down. China will get Taiwan handed to them on a golden plate without barely any sanctions.

[@liurocky4647]

Exactly. I thought they will talk about how much manpower/resources the US would need to defend Taiwan.

[@unelectedleader6494]

Well, the only guy with relevant, current expertise is Goldstein on the against. The political science professors have nothing to contribute because it’s a technical, military capability question. Even the former assistant deputy secretary, whatever that actually is, has nothing to add because he’s former so he does not have access to current information, And that job does not actually sound very serious. He’s not working at the Farragut technical analysis center at the office of Naval intelligence or something

[@qingzhou9983]

@@unelectedleader6494 No. the assistant deputy secretary actually understands the issue and he agreed technically with Lt. Goldstein. HE said it several times, the topic is framed wrong because based on the topic He loss. HE reframed the topic to Deter China, not necessarily successfully. His whole point is that After Taiwan China will do the same to Philippine and Japan (which is wrong) and US will loss more influence (which is right), hence US should not give up Taiwan, spend more resource to enhance US capabilities in like Guan anyway and raise the cost to China's domination. He treated Taiwan as a battue he knew US is going to loss, but fought anyway to degrade China and then setup more defense in next line.

[@richardmoriss8405]

SHOULD or COULD is critical,It’s a critical force leading wars output unless you believe it or not.

[@yliuos]

One side debated with facts and reason. The other side did so with lies and warmongering.

[@TheVineOfChristLives]

Time for constitutionalism and the ideals of a free society in democracy to finally beat post modern neo-marxism. USMil: Beat back the CCP to the Song dynasty, please!

[@DD-wx4jc]

All the West knows is war and genocide. Listen to you talk about destroying what China has built until they are destitute. China will build for the developing world which will turn against the US and its constant war and genocide. The US is about to become irrelevant again, after a very brief term as the world hegemon. China, on the other hand, will be returning to the center stage in the world.. as it has been for thousands of years. Cry more, maybe you will drown yourself before you see the evil US empire fall into a failed kleptocratic state like Putin's Russia.

[@Andrew-yh5fr]

@@DD-wx4jc #nanking2 #microppenergy

[@TheVineOfChristLives]

@@DD-wx4jc because we have free speech and enlightened thinkers in our media, you are able to witness, read and research accurate accounts of both good and bad things west does - the facts are prominent. In Marxist ideology, you equate someone’s morality to their economic status. Your ideology would kill doctors lawyers and businessman just cause they worked harder than a farmer. In fact, In 1994, Rudolph Rummel's book Death by Government included about 110 million people, foreign and domestic, killed by communist democide from 1900 to 1987.This total did not include deaths from China's Great Famine of 1958-1961. Numbers which will never be accurate, because covered up by the CCP. Lastly, CCP quietly celebrated the fact that more Americans died in Covid-19 than in ww2. You think America will forget and just lie to themselves, you are wrong PLA/N troll.

[@Here0s0Johnny]

Glaser says it is possible that China will risk a conventional war, and this could trigger a nuclear war. But what uf the US appeases China and they conquer Taiwan with US help? I think China will become even more aggressive and ambitious. This may carry a similar risk of eventually leading to nuclear war. It certainly risks indefinite instability and possibly countless horrible atrocities in smaller conflicts.

[@Rat-Baby]

I really doubt China would want to "conquer" Taiwan if the US wasn't meddling in their affairs. It's been 70 years, ffs

[@costakeith9048]

It's the 'let's give Hitler Czechoslovakia and he will be content' logic. History has proven that appeasement is the false hope of fools.

[@Rat-Baby]

@F Dot The island of Taiwan has always existed. Taiwan in it's present form wouldn't exist if scrubs who lost the civil war didn't rob a bunch of China's banks and invade Taiwan to try to continue the war indefinitely.

[@Rat-Baby]

@@costakeith9048 There's a big difference between a civil war and a war of genocidal imperialism. You might as well be saying, "should we let the Union prevent the seccession of the Confederacy?" It's none of you're business. And the only reason Americans are salivating over the concept of China invading Taiwan is because they want to use it as the stage for a proxy war. So stop pretending you want to "help" the Taiwanese when you would gladly see them as mere collateral damage to US interests if any sort of large-scale conflict.

[@vilarmaloles7275]

even if Taiwan is indefensible, it should be made defensible.

[@billyjoesmo8251]

Everyday the sovereign country of Taiwan grows in strength with high-tech missile defense and state-of-the-art American advanced f-15 E,S

[@newborn6]

Who is paying? USA is not giving it for free, in fact it over charge Taiwan and yet not give Taiwan anything good like free trade agreement or other ally treatment like Israel would get.

[@billyjoesmo8251]

@@newborn6 President Clinton open the piggy bank and let Taiwan have weapons at a discounted price or for free Trump said that the Taiwan should have executive service and get anything they want the Department of Defense did put some restrictions on airplanes such as F-35 but most of the newest equipment is now in Taiwan especially the Iron Dome type system

[@newborn6]

@@billyjoesmo8251 Sorry to break your bubble, but most of weapon bought by Taiwan actually cost more than what USA has sold to other countries previously, usually saying it's due to "localization"

[@billyjoesmo8251]

@@newborn6 you ever heard of that Taiwan relations act you are very wrong we give them at a severe discount and a lot of the defensive Military Arms are free plus Taiwan has favorable Nation status you really need educate yourself being wrong consistently is weird

[@alejogarciajr2223]

Taiwan now is guarded by us australia japan philippines n etc asesn country vs china period

[@colinsmith2488]

In my opinion the debating team against Taiwan indefensibility won because their analysis of the situation were more practical. In this sinerio China being the aggressor would be condemned by nations in the region combined with the US help China would suffering a great deal of casualties along with blocking their mercantile trade would spell disaster to their economy

[@douglasbeaulac1626]

The debating team forgot to give consideration to the fact that many of the world's free nations will join in on the defense of Taiwan. China, on the other hand, has very few, if any, allies. Do you really think the Chinese military can defeat the combined forces of the free world? Not a hope!

[@colinsmith2488]

@@douglasbeaulac1626 Indeed. China would be crucifided by the free world

[@piscator2813]

China will be condemned by the west, not a single country in the region except Japan will condemn China should they invade Taiwan. The expectation has long been set, accepting (or acknowledging) Taiwan is a part of China is the prerequisite for establishing diplomatic relations with China..

[@douglasbeaulac1626]

@@piscator2813 Spoken like a true indoctrinated Chinese troll. Go back to your fetid pond. Nobody's interested in your CCP BS.

[@piscator2813]

@@douglasbeaulac1626 😂 truth and facts hurt, no, snowflake?

[@olemanyounger5040]

Wow, the first minute of your opening statement and the "for" side loses. The largest manufacturer of semiconductors in the world is not vital to US security in an ever increasing cyber dependent world!?

[@franksmith7071]

That's why we need to make our own.

[@olemanyounger5040]

@@franksmith7071 True, but regardless the rare earth metals required to make advanced technologies are spread around the world, meaning we have to maintain relationships with some countries in order to even have access to the materials required. Nonetheless, we should never yield a single inch of power or influence to China of all countries.

[@newborn6]

@@olemanyounger5040 That point view is what's wrong with you, no country want foreign power to influence them, wither they are next door or speak same language, you saying never yielding power or influence over other countries its self says you don't respect other country's own sovereignty. best example is Japan, despite what Anglo-Saxons believes, if Japan can have its own army and political decisions without USA gets final say, it would take it without second thought.

[@olemanyounger5040]

@@newborn6 Anglo-saxons!? 😂You sound a little racist and very ignorant. Japan has an army, a navy, and an airforce numbering over a quarter million strong. They're not allowed to use they're armed forces offensively, because you know, imperialism; see history of WW2, an event you'll learn about when you start school. Oh, and I said US shouldn't yield power or influence to China, not any country. Allowing a country that commits genocide, alongside many other atrocities, seems unethical.

[@newborn6]

@@olemanyounger5040 who is the ignorant one here, SDF are very restricted because USA made them that way like 75 years ago and 250k include supporting staff is small consider population size of the country, not even to consider how they are restricted on what they can research and who they can buy stuff from. no one disagree what happened in ww2 was not good, but Japan basically lost most of its own decision making in all perspective since then which should be consider outdated as Germany gotten much better treatment. Your comment heavily suggest that USA do not want to remove influence over other counties no matter who they are, and Japan's Plaza accord(lost decades) is finest example with what happen when a country is been suppress by USA if they became richer and more developed than USA.

[@BensonLintw]

"Save your own country，no one is obliged to help you fight for freedom." As a Taiwanese myself, I thanks for those who stand for Taiwan, I believed and we believed we will win this war. Most people misunderstanding the ture Taiwanese history. We been lived on this island for more than 300 years, I have no idea why people think Taiwan is part of China? 1895 Taiwan was ceded by Manchu to Japan, year 1945 after WW2, Taiwan has no choice but occupied by China KMT Chiang Kai-shek (ROC) withou even ask the will of Taiwanese. Today, China (PRC) claim that Taiwan is part of China and this is so-called civil war? I could not find a nation who could be treated as sadder than sadness. I appreciate those who stand for Taiwan and I really hope the world could remember that Taiwanese are warm and honest people, we not interesting in superpower nor become super rich. We only want to protect our families and get away from China. May God Bless us all!!

[@jianhuang2293]

别想太多了，你们没那个实力。但还是送你一句话，中国人不打中国人。

[@BensonLintw]

@@jianhuang2293 什麽實力？侵略你們沒想過，反共復國你去問問老蔣，台灣人沒那意願。至於打殘來侵略的中國人，放心，台灣人沒中國人情節。去問問哪幾個台灣人在跟你是中國人？中華民國也就100多年，中華人民共和國也才70多年。別自相情願的套關係。好的鄰居關係你們不要，天天大國自居，經濟贏不了，70多年也沒見你們有膽跨過台灣海峽。天天吹牛逼，何苦？想娶個好媳婦，你都得想如何討好她。你們現在三不五十的威脅，打壓台灣。當台灣人這樣會屈服呀？維尼國小智商就算了，14億人口大國都這樣天真浪漫？好笑。

[@danielstapler4315]

The USA is the leading power in the world. If they want to keep that position then they need to defend Taiwan. There are risks for the CCP in attacking Taiwan and losing. Regimes do not last forever.

[@Davbach01]

"Regimes do not last forever." who's next, who has the Seven Signs of a Falling Nation?

[@nguyenhieu6731]

No. USA Need abandon Taiwan. Because, it's part of china.

[@xxxrossomaticxxx]

@@nguyenhieu6731 its an independant island never governed by China. It is not even in its national territory, so if the island declared independence, there is nothing wrong saying they cannot.

[@Davbach01]

@@xxxrossomaticxxx When was it independent? They [ROC] say they are China, they want all the mainland, also they want parts of Russia and Mongolia.

[@xxxrossomaticxxx]

@@Davbach01 in terms of sovereignty, for a very long time. the CCP has never ruled that island.

[@alejogarciajr2223]

Bottomline taiwan said we are to lives alone china we dont need you

[@andrewhting]

I don’t think China gives a flying fuck, lol

[@AlexH-nt1gg]

The confederate of United States of America said the same thing, wondering what happened to that

[@bentelog2823]

turn Taiwan into fortress to maximize defense. also allied nation must have mandatory donation of resources such as food/energy, weapons and construction materials. turn taiwan into nuclear defensible fortress.

[@DD-wx4jc]

China needs to perform freedom of navigation operations with their warships between the Hawaiian Islands. Free Hawaii!

[@bentelog2823]

@@DD-wx4jc china must eat more fetus and stop stealing asean sea foods.

[@samwariso]

The Kinmen Island, which is one of the Islands of Taiwan, is about 2km from Main Land China. So, in actual fact, Taiwan is not 100km from Main Land China as one of the debaters said, but a lot closer.

[@pinchmesh2856]

Taiwan is a free world survivor of the second world war. The USA is committed by treaty to defend it. Not doing so will not prevent a continuation of the conflict, where we left off. At the very least, trade with and domestic investment in China needs to be limited or stopped. Those involved in it need to know they are in danger of losing all they possess in country to China, as China literally "owns" the land. That's the price they pay for having the CCP as a co-owner of their production and facilities. The Chinese people benefit little while profit and returns are high. Their supporters managed to get Biden elected and gain control of international governments and trade practices. Now, under democrats and the Biden administration in the USA, the communist path forward is simple. Taiwan is just an "indication" of what is to come... and, only a tiny part. There will be much death and suffering. Go Biden.!!! Just think of all the money and power your family can gain. Blacks can have socialism and slavery under China, and the Antifa crowd can be dictators. Democracy has so many options. Communism doesn't.

[@lifenjin2075]

China's economy and society developed much faster than the western world and the whole world. Be real.

[@LuvThatDirtyWater]

"trade with China needs to be limited or stopped" BRAVO! We are still their largest trading partner and we're importing a lot more than we're exporting so who has the most to lose? With a little help from our friends we COULD and SHOULD bring China to its knees. Appeasement won't work with a fascist China (ask Hitler) so bring on the EMBARGO and BRING IT ON before it's too late because Taiwan is the line in the sand and the alternative is WAR

[@alanssshh]

Taiwan is free? will the USA allow Taiwan has nukes?what the joke.

[@lagrangewei]

why did you think the KMT lost the civil war? do u think KMT had the support of the chinese people? it is strange that people think a dictatorship is freedom... google "white terror taiwan" maybe then you will understand what US was really supporting...

[@michaelbee2165]

@@lifenjin2075 No it didn't. The Western world developed an immense cultural and economic colossus through the 17th and 18th centuries. And after they FINALLY decided huge wars damaged all that, the West has exploded again. China, well, there is immense cultural value. Yet it has reverted to a medieval culture that attempts to destroy much of their own history and that of others, I.e. Tibet. They have only had an industrial and economic revolution in the last 40 years. However, they still view themselves in medieval terms, that is, the CCP. They've chosen to still try to maraud, murder and destroy others than to try to build a real civilization. They could be such a great bulwark against the murdering regimes we still have in the world. Instead, China chooses to be in bed with people like Iran and North Korea. Two medieval societies as well.

[@chairde]

Here is a military analysis. A seaborne invasion is very dangerous and difficult even for experienced navies. The last time China was in a naval battle all the ships had sails. There are a limited number of beaches for landing because Taiwan is mostly mountains. Taiwan has been preparing for an invasion for decades. The Chinese navy will helplessly flounder in the open seas because they are easy targets. The Taiwan are underground in bunkers. It will be difficult to reinforce and supply the Chinese landing craft.

[@Davbach01]

Do they actually need to invade? Surely they could adopt western policy/actions, trade and resource blockades and sanctions etc.

[@chairde]

@@Davbach01 that’s a good point.

[@shawnv123]

@F Dot lmao and china would just stop all trade going from china to taiwan you stupid liberal fuck

[@Davbach01]

@F Dot But then you wouldn't have your shiny Apple I Phone, come to that, Apple most stuff, to make stupid comments on.

[@thetreekeeper143]

Umm no need for ships. China can use their hypersonic missiles. Either from land or from stealth fighters. But China is not going to use force to unite the Chinese people. I'm willing to bet that China is playing a waiting game. A game of economic chess and through influence will unite Taiwan together with China. China is a builder of roads and bridges to unite people. It does not destroy like America and its allies do to other countries.

[@onongprasong7878]

Wasting my time listening to Lyle,

[@taiwanfocus4385]

His argument can be summed up in one sentence: I read a lot of Chinese publications, and I believe every word of them.

[@saltyroe3179]

There has been only one country that has expelled China's repeated attempt at invasion and subjugation. That is Vietnam. India is already resisting PRC aggression. With support from others, Taiwan can be defended.

[@fuyoutube854]

It is not how many dogs there are in the fight that determines the winner but it is the fight in the dog that determines the winner

[@ervingzhao5060]

Vietnam economy is controlled by china and that speaks for Phillipine. That means they won't come to the rescue for Taiwan. India is dirt poor unless Americans share their money with this poor ally; therefore, india won't come to the rescue of Taiwan because it has no money.

[@LSC69]

I'm so glad China invaded Vietnam and razed all the heavy industries there. Pushing Vietnam back 30 years was a great decision.

[@YorktownUSA]

My first thought: are the two backing the claim Chinese sympathizers, and do they have CCP ties? Other then that OBVIOUS anomaly, good debate.

[@Josef9004]

Don't know what makes you think they would be chinese sympathisers, but I guess if your not the one going to the front lines to be shot, going to war over a province of China might seem like a good idea.

[@Josef9004]

@F Dot seems your brain cell count is as limited as you vocabulary, and I don't know why you make such a fuss about communism, as the USA doesn't seem to be bothered by it.

[@stewartbeche686]

Both were Jews ...Jews are left wing....remember communist manifesto written by jew karl marx...in sopreme court , politics they are left of center and gravitate to the marxists

[@007kingifrit]

@@Josef9004 gee how about the guy "oh i watch chinese propaganda daily and i trust it" lol that guy literally started by parroting chinese talking points "oh its really theirs"

[@Josef9004]

@@007kingifrit The guy is literally only trying in my opinion to say that to get involved in a conflict right next to mainland China is going to be suicide and the costs far outweigh the benefit. But if you really so wish for a war, then I hope the fighting starts sooner than later.

[@MrNeunauge]

You do not fight were it is convenient but where it is necessary.

[@ramonalaniz2963]

Once upon a time yes... but technology allows a virus to travel to your destination... weapons of mass destruction do not respect borders ...and neither do the Chinese

[@alfong8279]

Yeah right, that's why the US has been constantly at war for the 30 years or so, so necessary and so conveniently to send to early graves for a large number of of our youngs! Give me a break, fool...

[@ramonalaniz2963]

@@alfong8279 Chinese Troll stay away from the TERRITORIAL WATERS OF THE PHILIPPINES and JAPAN....Stay away from INDIA' TERRITORY and stay away from territorial disputes with VIETNAM AND MALAYSIA! RESPECT OTHERS IF YOU WANT RESPECT.... OTHER WISE THERE WILL BE WAR! DON'T BE A FOOL RESPECT YOUR NEIGHBORS!

[@ramonalaniz2963]

@齐质保 Respect the border with India, respect the territorial waters a air space of Japan, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia and other ASEAN Nations... .if you cannot respect....then their will be WAR!

[@ramonalaniz2963]

@齐质保 The history of India is clear... India has a documented history of civilized settlements well before The British. The Chinese losses were so bad that satellite pictures show Chinese Ambulances picking up the dead ...and erecting hospital tents for at least 300 to 500 casualties and fatalities...a picture tells a thousand words while you spread lies and misinformation which as a Chinese Troll you are given a script by your Communist Masters

[@ikm64]

True sadly enough... But ya can make the cost to the aggressor unacceptable. ... a job for the CIA?...

[@mobiuszero2424]

china have more than enough missiles to saturate taiwan, its just a small island

[@ikm64]

@@mobiuszero2424 Of course they do...but something to consider... The USA V's the Viet Cong The USSR V's the Taliban The British Empire V's the IRA Ya see it's not size that matters...it what you do with what you got.. Worth remembering that one...all those only children...

[@mobiuszero2424]

@@ikm64 USA cant saturate vietnam with missiles, because givt need public support, china dont need to USSR cant saturate afghanistan with missiles, afghanistan is too big UK has same reason with US yes, size still does matter and China is communist state, not democratic so they dont need public support

[@ikm64]

@@mobiuszero2424 Quick correction...The Republic of Ireland fought the British Empire for it's independence (1919-1921)...achieving it's independence in 1922...*IRA Vientnam was nearly nuked the serving commander at the time Douglas MacAuther had to be "recalled from duty" it was that close. The US can end life on Earth (just like Russia & China) so any island would be a walk in the park...(with the right reason or commander) As to China...what a history...but a recurring theme resonates... Foreign influence starting wars... "Foreign trade" the Opium wars... "Christianity" The Boxer revolution "Communism" Their own cival war If you know anything about China "holding it together is always their challenge" It's enemies are more than aware of it weaknesses...

[@watsonbrown5456]

@@mobiuszero2424 the USA has more than enough nuclear bombs to saturate China but that would hardly incline the USA to use it

[@piranha3037]

Taiwan can easily be defended. These are the steps. 1. Supply nukes to Taiwan and suitable delivery system covertly. 2. India, Vietnam and many other countries are resisting PRC. Pass critical military technologies so that new fronts could be successfully opened up. 3. Provide SSNs technology to India, Japan as it has been done to Australia. 4. Provide military assistance to India as it resists PRC. 5. Build up alliances. Strengthen QUAD, AUKUS. 6. Show-off massive strength. 7. Build up Malacca choke point militarization. 8. Build alliance with Kyrgyzstan. It has Military disputes with PRC. Build up a string of Pearls around China consisting of Countries having border disputes with China. All these moves, if pursued violently and single mindedly would deter China. America would be history if China takes Taiwan. No country will take America seriously if Taiwan is taken away by China.

[@danielduan2134]

You fool! You loose Taiwan, that beast will take your allies one by one! Australia, Japan...!

[@mnbvmnbv7934]

lmao are you allowed to be on youtube?

[@markwang4454]

Australia is just a barking dog and a puppy to the USA!

[@mnbvmnbv7934]

@@markwang4454 man, anytime a country is allied with the US they are called "puppets". Does that mean countries like Pakistan and North Korea are puppets to China?

[@markwang4454]

@@mnbvmnbv7934 Have those countries allied to engage in wars? Or those allied with USA went for wars !?

[@mnbvmnbv7934]

@@markwang4454 if war broke out Pakistan and North Korea would allie with China. Don't even try to act clueless

[@nigeljohn65]

Charlie Glazer, I think the people who believed it better to placate Hitler must have sounded a great deal like you.

[@alanOHALAN]

Are you saying Hitler had legitimate claim over France or Poland? China has legitimate claim over Taiwan, that is not questionable. Unless you are open to questioning the US claim over Texas, Haiwaii, etc.

[@jimmywang1586]

Nigel Woodward, I think eurocentric armchair historians who knows Hitler and nothing else must sound a great deal like you. There are two Chinas. Taiwan is one of the two. Taiwan's formal name is "Republic of China". And speaking as a Taiwanese, most of us favour status quo, not independence.

[@Roadwarior2]

Not so much over France or Poland, but Taiwan is more analogous to Austria, whose annexation into Greater Germany was one of the first major redlines Hitler crossed, while Britain and France did fuck all.

[@alanOHALAN]

@@Roadwarior2 Excuse you, did you fail your history class? Was Tainwain a soverign country ever? Oh that's right, whites like you don't bother to learn about Asian history.

[@Roadwarior2]

@@alanOHALAN 3 times it has actually, for brief periods. There was the time Ming loyalists captured the island from the Dutch and formed the Kingdom of Tungning, and that lasted for 20 years until the Qing captured it. Then when the Qing abandoned the island to the Japanese, the Republic of Formosa was proclaimed, and lasted for a few months. Now you have the rump state that has been de-facto independent for 70 years. Don't worry, considering precedent, I'm sure the mainland will get it back like it or not.

[@laserbrain7774]

If israel has the right and is worth it, Then Tiawan certainly does as well.

[@terryadams2652]

two points: 1) Taiwan island has been a part of China (mainland) for HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the Communist even showed up in the 1900s. So, as a matter of historical fact, Taiwan belonging to mainland China is simply the default setting of reality. 2) If California or Texas (or any other US state) wanted to hold an internal state-wide referendum, and if in that referendum the people of that state wanted to leave the US union, do you REALLY think that the Federal government would allow it to happen, EVEN if 100% of the people in that state wanted it?? Hey, so much for "Freedom & Democracy", right Heep-OWE-creet??

[@terryadams2652]

Israel? If you believe that the original inhabitants should be given the land (in spite of the new comers who displaced them), then WHEN can the "Americans" (actually just transplanted Europeans) give the land & control of the land back to the Native Americans?? Facts are tough things, huhh, hee-POW-creet??

[@laserbrain7774]

@@terryadams2652 You are hysterical. Is your spell checker broken? is that why you are exaggerating your phonetics like that? who's accent are you trying to mock?

[@dortiapewpew7445]

Israel was worth it because Palestinians (and its supporting Arab nations) couldn't win a war against it. Do you think Israel is worth it if Jews wanted a piece of Russian land as their country? I don't think so.

[@terryadams2652]

@@laserbrain7774 in OTHER words, *you have no factual counter argument,* SO, you desperately attempt to change the subject (while practicing Ad Hominem), is that right? You're Path-et-eek.

[@hernanuliana9111]

The victory for the US is the no intervention. A war between China and Taiwan can severely affect the power projection of China, cause heavy loses to their military, terror to their neighbors who probably will go to the US allainces with little efforts and probably years of taiwanese resistance with all the cost in resources (Remember Irak and Afghanistan). The US can surround China sea region anyway with bases in sovereign countries without Taiwan and a force takeover by China will make this easy. China will never attack Taiwan militarily because they know all of this, it's a diplomatic game and cold war propaganda for both sides to continue the "big war scare" for the public to comply with the global power policies and military spend.

[@saintchick3437]

“Fellow traveler”’ Lyle.

[@ramonalaniz2963]

With high tech weapons, American, French and Japanese Aircraft Carriers in the region Taiwan will be defended as the UK will also be in the region next month. If Taiwan is so indefensible....China would have invaded long ago!

[@mingxuan4525]

Please. It is all about self interests. What does Japan, US and France stand to gain from aiding Taiwan. Why should the world risk a world war over a tiny puny Taiwan? Did Nato react when Russia invaded Ukraine? Hell no. Obviously China could have invaded Taiwan long ago, but they would rather a peaceful unity over a bloody one. Your argument also suggests you have no faith in Taiwan's independent capability. Always remember, NATO = NO ACTION, TALK ONLY

[@ramonalaniz2963]

@@mingxuan4525 When China lost it's border clash with India you have to ask: "What in the world were the Chinese thinking?" When China lost it's border clash with Vietnam I could ask the same thing! The Chinese encroachment upon Japanese territory, encroachment upon the Philippines, Taiwan and more recently Malaysia.... demonstrates that China is a bad actor on the world stage. You guys just don't get along well with anyone! It begs the question: "What in the world is China thinking?" Aggression to change the status quo in the South China Sea is not a solution for commerce and Capital markets. China more than anyone else has more to lose.

[@mingxuan4525]

@@ramonalaniz2963 I am Taiwanese. And I support reunification with my mother land. China did not lost the border clashes with India. DO your homework. There were more deaths on the Indians side. India is a joke, can't even cope with COVID internally how do you expect them to protect their borders? They are largely poor and uneducated. Vietnam?????? look how far China progress since the last Vietnam war??? If anything the south china sea is evident that NO COUNTRIES DARE TO CHALLENGE MY MOTHER LAND

[@kohmk2329]

Rubbish! China won both wars with both India and Vietnam !

[@ramonalaniz2963]

@@kohmk2329 India, The United States and the rest of the world do not share your world view as there is significant satellite and boots on the ground to substantiate China's losses

[@douglasbeaulac1626]

America will not be alone. The military, air force and naval assets of the entire free world will stand with you in defense of the free and democratic country of Taiwan.

[@ricchmus]

Long live CHINA!

[@yopyop3241]

​@@ricchmus If China invades Taiwan, China's long life will be a long life in the nation-equivalent of prison. For an example, see North Korea.

[@ricchmus]

@@yopyop3241 Is that right? The Chinese people are free to travel the world, free to buy properties within and outside of China, free education and health. Just because they gave away certain personal freedoms for a greater nation does not mean they are bad.

[@Andrew-yh5fr]

@@ricchmus the nazis and soviet union allowed that for their people too. Doesn't mean they weren't totalitarian regimes #chinazi #thenewaryans

[@ricchmus]

@@Andrew-yh5fr Yes it's a totalitarian regime, 90 percent of her people are happy with the CCP, who are we to tell them how to live? Have they invaded any countries? Have they bomb any country in the name of freedom? We should mind our own business!

[@hundun5604]

China is like Germany 1938, before WW-II.

[@youcangetholdofjules]

China invading, holding, and holding off a counterstrike economically as well as militarily is getting harder and harder, rather than easier and more likely. There are all these peripheral issues like supply chain diversity that until now China had something of a noose around our necks on. Those advantages are fading quickly. And it won't just be the US defending Taiwan. Every NATO country and the entire Quad would be on the US side by default. Its insane to even think China would try and it knows it.

[@greenbeanfroggy3177]

America has already lost all its hard power, you will see in the fall of America in the next 30 years, it is destined.

[@youcangetholdofjules]

@@greenbeanfroggy3177 Cute

[@shawnv123]

quad isn’t even an alliance lmao

[@youcangetholdofjules]

It is quickly turning into one. It did nothing for a decade but then things changed. So call it whatever you want, but the 4 countries are working together more and more closely all the time.

[@shawnv123]

@@youcangetholdofjules and all those countries depend on china for trade so what’s your point

[@duncanread587]

The U.S doesnt need to defend Taiwan, if they have nuclear weapons.

[@dinoyuan1574]

Well Mexico and Cuba could do with some nukes of their own

[@Moabi4]

South and central America will be armed with nukes as well. You seem to have forgotten how the US went into panic mode after the Soviets put nukes in Cuba.

[@xenovax7772]

@@Moabi4 sure thing uncle thomas

[@dinoyuan1574]

@@Moabi4 The US would piss themselves when that ever happens

[@xenovax7772]

@@dinoyuan1574 why? America would just pull a China. Do genocide and play victim

[@shaikhasker]

US should empower Japan to increase military power.

[@yopyop3241]

Empower? The US has been demanding that Japan increase its military power for years. The problem is that doing so is extremely unpopular with the Japanese public. The people of Japan feel that they, too, were victims of the Japanese military during WW2. The Japanese military seized control of the Japanese government and then ran off and committed unspeakable atrocities while keeping the people of Japan in the dark. As a result, the Japanese are now far more suspicious of any attempt to expand the military than people of other countries.

[@shaikhasker]

@@yopyop3241 That means now they want to get subjugated by China for salvation?

[@yopyop3241]

​@@shaikhasker That means they believe 100% in the American security umbrella. You'll note that Japan's leadership has been strongly in favor of expanding and strengthening the Japanese military. But in any democracy, making moves that go against a very strong tide of public opinion is not easy.

[@shaikhasker]

@@yopyop3241 Then government should work on educating the citizens more. Democracy is tortoise and autocracy is rabbit.

[@yopyop3241]

​@@shaikhasker Problem is, it has become part of the Japanese national identity. The Japanese are the first and only people to "forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation." They are incredibly proud of that. Most people assume that Article 9 was put into the Japanese Constitution by the Americans as a form of punishment. In actuality, it was the Japanese who asked for the Article in order to ensure that their military could never take over again.

[@mickcheetal3517]

I live in central PI/Luzon as an Aussie ex-pat for the last 10 years, and I am very worried to be frankly honest. In 2013 while living in Cebu city where I met my beloved wife, I spoke to a Chinese academic of approximately 30 years of age and I asked him one question. "What do the Chinese people think of Japan?" and without equivocation or pause, he said. "Most all Chinese people wish to see Japan as flat black and glowing in the dark for ten thousand years!". True Story!

[@jamesmoy1214]

Wayne Burnam, you’d probably burn down your house if you found one ant 🐜 in the kitchen counter😂

[@rodgerhempfing2921]

Is democracy worth defending against communism? Appeasement never ends well.

[@bernardfong1019]

Is not democracy versus Communism, your labels, but kleptocracy versus Confucianism. China's leaders are elected and the system precludes the direct corporate influence as votes are not for sale. Your simplistic and trite sloganeering betrays a real understanding of the reality.

[@Andrew-yh5fr]

@@bernardfong1019 #blowhard #wannabe #microppenergy

[@Vapour85]

How would you defend democracy (where to draw the line)? And at what cost (how many lives)?

[@rodgerhempfing2921]

@@bernardfong1019 from what I understand, if Xi sees another politician as a threat, he was be charged with corruption and executed. It is easy because corruption is built into the ccp system. What label would you use for that system of rule? It's certainly not Confucius.

[@rodgerhempfing2921]

@@Vapour85 if the people of Taiwan call out for help, America will respond from the heart. They love a underdog. It is emotional, not logical. Big business uses a calculator but the voters sometimes use their heart.

[@roverdank8260]

Taiwan would need to focus les on conventional weapons and a lot more on aces denial capabilities like a massive arsenal of various misels, sea mines, and hiden/fortified positions to make it difficult for China to achieve a beach head and allow for Guerilla tactics against chines troops if they do arrive.

[@taotao1481]

most of the Taiwanese people are Chinese in fact, they use Chinese media, they look at Chinese tv, and most Taiwanese don't want to fight. with now the covid-19 scandal in Taiwan people is flying to China and the USA just for a vaccine because now the Taiwan gov just don't want to give already made vaccine to its people ( so that Taiwan made vaccine can be used and where the gov have 50% investment, so this means the gov will gain a lot of money ). So the guerilla stuff is very unlikely, Taiwanese have always been afraid of death throughout history even when the Japanese came. Also that you seem to underestimate Chinese people's intelligence, they don't show off as the USA does but what you said is probably already a scenario worked by the Chinese army. If really china wants to take out Taiwan it just needs to cripple key infrastructure and in few hours it will be over. So coming back to your point, China has already established an access denial capacity on Taiwan island.

[@redhunter4872]

@@taotao1481 so you and Goldstein should enlist. See how “easy” it will be to invade Taiwan. First to fight and first to die

[@taotao1481]

@@redhunter4872 do you have any argument that is not personal attack ?

[@redhunter4872]

@@taotao1481 it’s not a personal attack. Do you have an argument that makes sense?

[@taotao1481]

@@redhunter4872 yes my argument was that rover dank understimates china over estimate Taiwan . But you jumped on me saying that I should go to the army and get killed first .

[@Yamamotoseto]

Domino theory is true. When Saigon fell. Cambodia, Laos fell.

[@user-hk5fo1nm9h]

That’s not how anything works. Cambodia fell because the US bombed it to hell, Laos and Vietnam were tied together and they wanted to free from the US and France. Also the Vietnamese put Pol Pot down.

[@oneviwatara9384]

@@user-hk5fo1nm9h Vietnam betrayed Pol Pot.

[@malikshabazz2065]

total idiot

[@Grey_Ocean2023]

Not really. Philippines didn't fall. Thailand didn't fall. Malaysia didn't fall. Singapore didn't fall. Indonesia didn't fall.

[@nomercynodragonforyou9688]

Exactly, the guy is a dismissive jackass

[@rohanindra6401]

Lyle Goldberg (for side) is the worse person to have on such a panel. He looks smug the entire time and interjects. His tone is dismissive. This is a debate where ideas are meant to be exchanged and considered but he looks amused as to why this debate is taking place. His responses were often “I watch a lot of Chinese military TV” or just flat out denial with little elaboration.

[@dkwlin4351]

Great Debates! I also understand the opposite side concern US security interest. However, I would like to comment that US can’t lose Taiwan not only Taiwan’s security interest but also the leadership and authority of US in Indo-Pacific. If Taiwan is lost, South Korea may appease to China-DPRK and Japan May access its own Nukes. ASEAN will give in China influences and deny any influence from the US.

[@dkwlin4351]

@LIDONG ZHANG It is none of your business. It is China’s choice to be foe of the US. The US is willing to help. Taiwan is glad to accept. None of countries truly believe Taiwan is a part of China.(PRC) They also know it Is Orwellian non-sense.😂 If you have ball, don’t just provoke Taiwanese, Hongkonger, Tibetan and Uyghur. Show your Tough Stance and Patriotism to non-Mandarin speakers🌚

[@redhunter4872]

@LIDONG ZHANG you and Goldstein should enlist and see how “easy” it will be to invade Taiwan. First to fight and first to die

[@wyatt2918]

@Kitty Cat but it's in there own interest too

[@dkwlin4351]

@Kitty Cat If the next POTUS is an Black or Hispanic American, will you taunt me serve Black men’s Interest or Hispanic men’s interest? Meh 😒 Do you want to complain US foreign policy? Go complain to White House and Foggy Bottom. Please persuade White House to withdraw the US troops in Japan, South Korea and Philippines.

[@dkwlin4351]

@LIDONG ZHANG Do you agree Third Reich Wehrmacht also liberated Austria ,Czechoslovakia and Poland? Do you think Japanese Imperial Army liberated Manchuria and China? Do you think Fascist Italy Army also liberated Abyssinia and Albania? 😏😏😏

[@suresh-dv7he]

Taiwan should apply to be US 51st state.

[@estelagarcia6579]

This is the same mentality of Chinese.

[@glennmitchell9107]

After Taiwan, what is the next territory the free world will cede without a fight?

[@glennmitchell9107]

@James Barlow Fair enough. We already abandoned South Chicago.

[@glennmitchell9107]

Google shows that the U.S. has fewer than 50 Army, Navy, Marine, and Air Force bases combined worldwide outside the United States. There may be 300 bases total globally, but most of them are inside the United States. Fifty is still a lot, however, the U.S. has a lot of friends and allies around the world. How many friends and allies does the CCP have? Why are so many of the countries on the CCP's doorstep not their friends or allies?

[@007kingifrit]

@LIDONG ZHANG your country is evil though. america is the shining order of the world that keeps everyone safe america is only a threat to evil countries

[@TrustThePlan]

There's no choice, that is your cursed fate a living being, an endless cycle of births, fights, and deaths bound to repeat itself until nature says no more.. If only we were herbivores.

[@TrustThePlan]

@@007kingifrit Within this century we've never of America annexing a territory, only support. Meanwhile the communists.

[@TeW33zy]

Or tell Taiwan to surrender peacefully 95% of the country accept the important stiff.

[@rodgerhempfing2921]

The real question is whether America will stop trading with China if china attacks taiwan. Economically, China is vulnerable but there will be hardship in america as well. Kinetic war is only part of the total picture.

[@johntang7852]

Probably. A switch to India and a few Southeast Asian countries alone would probably make up for the trade disruption. Mind you they also hate China too and in a war between the US vs China they would.not just be trade partners with America but security partners as well

[@karlescobar8046]

It's important to defend Taiwan, because the expansion ambitious of China are not going to stop on Taiwan, but tomorrow could be the Philippines or Australia, this is the time to come to terms with China tomorrow will be to late. this is not just about the So China sea, or Taiwan but a show of force to test the US power and the western alliance against the comunist system dominating and bullying the region.

[@T.image79]

That’s how europeans think. No doubt because they have gone around the world conquering everyone. It is not how China has behaved in the vast majority of its history. China has always shown commitment to consolidating its territory and very very little appetite for territorial expansion. Your analysis is not believable at all because Taiwan is culturally and genetically already Chinese, so there is a natural desire there for unification. But the cost of war to take over other lands is just not worth it for China. China will become the evil coloniser and imperialist it has always despised and the financial cost just makes no sense whatsoever. China, unlike the USA, has proved that it can succeed and make money and even dominate without the need to physically takeover or bomb foreign nations.

[@zwing1707]

@@T.image79 China for most of history thought it was middle of the earth so that is why it did not go around the world conquering others. Not because it is a nice country full of nice people or any of such global time propaganda you seem to believe. And which now it is false due to shameless Chinese piracy in south china sea

[@T.image79]

@@zwing1707 “China thought it was middle of the earth?” Wtf are you talking about?? There are records of old China and India AND Africa trading. Do you think the Chinese were illiterate farmers for their entire history thinking the earth was flat like europeans believed for hundreds of years??? I have no idea what you are talking about. Make your point more clearly please.

[@zwing1707]

@@T.image79 wtf YOU are talking about? China translates to “Middle Kingdom” from Mandarin name as in the Middle Kingdom of the Earth

[@T.image79]

@@zwing1707 So how does being “middle kingdom” take away it’s heritage as largely, not exclusively, but almost totally non colonial non imperial past?? like I said, in its very long and illustrious history China never ever expressed the kind of lustful grab for territory we saw with Ghenghis Khan or Alexander the Great or Japan or europe!! China simply doesn’t have that kind of past. I know because you are european you think every nation is like europe, but that’s called simple and pure Projection and paranoia. Because you would attack everyone you think everyone is out to get you too. Right? WRONG!!

[@jackmaa3647]

Don’t underestimate Taiwan they acquire nuclear bombs years ago they just don’t admit this out in the open,look what happened to North Korea with the nuclear bombs,no country in this world will attack them unless they started the war first,Taiwan just like the Israel they are intelligent people they live near mean neighbors.

[@thetreekeeper143]

Taiwan are Chinese people who lost a civil war with other Chinese people. Chinese people should unite together. Do not let the white man divide Chinese people like they did to Africans.

[@willembecker957]

Taiwan don't need to have nuclear weapons of their own. They are covered by US nuclear weapons, roaming around on US warships, and around the coastal area surrounding China. On all countries where there is an American base, with a missile defense system, there are nuclear weapons.

[@yamsoonhuat5118]

No nuclear bom in Taiwan don't be naif stupid . If they have already say Independence, why Taiwan are not claiming. If say so Taiwan will disintegrate

[@kianono3209]

@@yamsoonhuat5118 It's not difficult for the Taiwan to own the nukes , if US didn't destroyed Taiwan's nuke projects last 80s.

[@Chengtan-rx9po]

Taiwan is not indefensible

[@kyungim3186]

US should recognize Taiwan as an independent nation to make a military commitment with Taiwan.

[@yopyop3241]

The US can formally recognize Taiwan whenever it wants. The decision to not recognize Taiwan so far is to buy some extra time in the hope of reaching a peaceful resolution. There's no doubt that the US recognizes Taiwan in reality, it's just that delaying the formality of recognition helps preserve peace. If non-recognition ever stops providing that benefit, the US (and most of the world) will obviously give full recognition to Taiwan.

[@thomasho4427]

Dare US do it at the UN. Well if it does it only proves that US is a country of no principle and integrity. For a fact Sam has lost everything in recent times.

[@yopyop3241]

​@@thomasho4427 The US not recognizing Taiwan for now has been a gift to China. The US is gifting China with time to learn to stop being evil and learn to recognize the Taiwanese people's fundamental, natural right of self-determination. The US has always had, continues to have, and probably always will have the ability to crush China. China is utterly dependent on international maritime trade, and the US basically owns the oceans. The US doesn't want to crush China, but it will if it has to. Not recognizing Taiwan temporarily is an expression of that American reluctance. But please understand-- American reluctance here is an expression of American kindness. It would be a massive error on China's part to imagine that American magnanimity here is a sign of weakness and inability.

[@taiwanfocus4385]

The flaw of this debate is the given presumption that China is willing to go "all out" in overtaking Taiwan. But what does "all out" mean? Is China willing to face a crumbled economy so much so that the Communist Party may loose its power?

[@haseeb6053]

Even if CCP is weaker, who's there to challenge them?

[@taiyipan3138]

I think China will go to total war over Taiwan. Thanks to decades of nationalistic education lol.

[@watsonbrown5456]

@@haseeb6053 the combined force of the five-eues and European Union would come to mind

[@香料國境]

China will definitely never give up. They are playing the long game and slowly increasing the pressure. Very clever and effective strategy!

[@haseeb6053]

@@watsonbrown5456 i meant domestically..

[@ikm64]

So your argument is, when all things are boiled down, an "isolationist" argument... I have just three words to counter... The Twentieth Century...enough said.

[@DD-wx4jc]

We will lose a war against China. Listen to our US think tanks. They all say so and have for years. Like RAND

[@ikm64]

@@DD-wx4jc Sadly you could be right... Which is why it's probably a good idea that ya don't lets things go that far... Now it's a complex topic...not one that would fit into a "comment" section. But China's rise doesn't necessary follow the US must decline...ya both can compete... It is as the end of the day a numbers game... ...and 1.4 billion is quite an opening gambet. It is that is until you look at what is colloqually called "The West" Now a "United West" would change the numbers quite significly. The most complex of problems requires the most "out of the box thinking"

[@montys420-]

@@DD-wx4jc so your argument is to give up without a fight? And many a ppl have won wars against numerically superior opponents!

[@profriday]

If US does become an isolationist, it won't give a f**k to nuclear proliferation. Taiwan is a latent nuclear power, so is Japan and S.Korea. They are all fully capable of defending themselves if US does not stand in their way.

[@ikm64]

@@profriday Ya really don't know your own history, never mind any other countries.... Ya must be American so... Isolationist...is the "default" American position!! It was the position it held at the start of both world wars!!! But trouble has a way of finding you... Russia's overtures to Mexico was the catylist to wake people up in the first world war... ...and Japan did the necessaries in the second world war... America is to "big" for anyone to ignore...and so they don't! At some point you will see the Chinese weaponized Covid...and to this minute...America's response is non existant!!!!!! Russia has used disinformation to get you guys to "hate" each other even more than your enemies!!! That's some achievement...no wonder Putin is always smiling

[@bhartley868]

Taiwan is defensible as is Japan & South Korea & India. China is more vulnerable that it appears.

[@lawrencemiller4525]

It's simple: Appeasement of militaristic, authoritarian regimes never stops aggression to take territory. There will always be territory on the periphery of such regimes. Territory on the periphery of militaristic, authoritarian regimes often cannot defend themselves. Superior military strength deters aggression. Willingness to use superior military force is also required to deter aggression. If one wants to capitulate to aggression, then decline to obtain a superior military. If one wants to capitulate to aggression, then decline to communicate unequivocal willingness to use military force. Make a decision.

[@menomusicalbutmykidsare9116]

Cowboy mentality won't win you a war with the determined China to regain back its territory. Vietnam war rings a bell? Trust me, this will be even worse...a lot worse.

[@redhunter4872]

@@menomusicalbutmykidsare9116 you and Goldstein should enlist and see how “easy” it will be to invade Taiwan. First to fight and first to die

[@hughmungus2760]

@@redhunter4872 it really depends how messy china wants the war to be. It really wouldn't take much to starve taiwan out by blowing up its critical infrastructure. And a couple million dead as a result of a famine might cause a surrender in a year or two.

[@redhunter4872]

@@hughmungus2760 so you and Goldstein should enlist. See how “easy” it will be to invade Taiwan. First to fight and first to die