Is The American Swing THE WORST Kettlebell Exercise EVER? - (Reacting To Redefining Strength)

[@lebe-stark]

► 90 Days Of Kettlebells - bit.ly/90days-of-kettlebells​​​ The American Swing is a highly debated exercise. On the one hand, you have people who believe that no exercise is inherently bad for everyone and on the other side, you have folks who disagree with that notion. In this reaction, we want to hear what Cori from @Redefining Strength has to say about this kettlebell exercise. Cori Lefkowith runs the "Redefining Strength" KZbin channel and has her own training facility in Orange County, CA. - Gregory

[@redefiningstrengthOC]

OMG your reaction just made my day! haha Thanks for sharing...even if you don't agree with everything I say...which of course you should 😜🤪

[@lebe-stark]

Glad you enjoyed it Cori! I hope you like the full video when it premieres; I'm really interested in your follow-up opinion. Thanks for taking the time out to comment! We have a podcast going on our channel that focuses on fitness & kettlebells. Would you be interested to appear on it? - Gregory

[@Parzec]

While I get the idea behind the "no move is inherently bad" I can't help but thinking about those Spine Wrecker Swings in an earlier reaction video. Those swings that looked kinda like a normal kettlebell swing but where the bell was allowed to travel between the legs and way back with the spine bent... Or the "deadlifts" where the whole lift was done with locked knees, straight legs and all the lift came from the bent spine. A little bit of selection isn't bad. Great video as always =)

[@PavelKrotovFit]

Great video, reaction and breakdown Gregory. I must admit, have done workouts with American Swing and it’s not my favourite (most of the times done that’s to complete WO - RX or as prescribed) Not many people have enough flexibility to have their hands over head in a such narrow grip. Thx 👍

[@lebe-stark]

Thanks for sharing Pavel! I've certainly made many mistakes in my workout selection, execution of form and other things. We learn from constructive feedback; that's what this is for. - Gregory

[@donbrown2391]

Cori is awesome. I had four major abdominal surgeries in 2017 and she was my go to trainer for reclaiming my core strength. I saw the episode where she went over the American swing. Super smart and super inspirational. Glad you gave her some props.

[@stefhirsch6922]

When deciding on what exercises to be the foundational movements of a strength training program it’s wise to consider 1. what you are trying to accomplish out of a given movement and 2. if there’s a safer option which accomplishes the same thing. For example chest flys vs bench press the bench press is going to be comparable to better at developing the chest but less likely to injure oneself by overstretching the subclavius and coracobrachialis. That would make the bench press a superior movement for the chest while training in a movement pattern which would more closely resemble what you would do in life/sport. Both the hardstyle and overhead kettlebell swing develop hamstrings, glutes, back extensors as well as likely potential for cardiovascular work as well. The Russian/hardstyle swing is superior at developing hip drive while being safer on your shoulders and back - while being easier to teach and harder (but still plenty likely to) do it poorly. Arguably the overhead swing has the advantage of using your shoulders. That said snatches, presses and jerks are all far superior at shoulder development while being safer. Why choose movements which are more likely to injure yourself which don’t provide any performance advantages in both ones ability to gain strength/mass/conditioning while providing less carryover to life/sport and being easier to mess up/harder to coach. Is the overhead swing the worst exercise ever? No, but there are better choices.

[@maryhamric]

I love her. I never miss her videos or podcasts. Can't wait for this vid!

[@lebe-stark]

Let me know what you think of it; looking forward to your feedback Mary! - Gregory

[@janetneice8488]

Another great topic! First, like many others have already commented, I love Cori's channel! She is hands-down one of the best fitness channels on KZbin. Cori is well-researched, experienced, and very thoughtful in her approach. She does an excellent job in breaking down her position to make things understandable, especially for viewers who may not have the same level of fitness experience or knowledge. And, she is the first to say, as noted, debating her points is a good thing! As for the American Kettlebell Swing, I'm definitely in the camp that this is a pointless, unnecessary, and even more importantly, dangerous movement. This swing really became more ubiquitous with the popularization of CrossFit in the U.S. That's a red flag already as a 2018 systematic review and meta-analysis published in the journal Sports Medicine Open found that data to support the fitness platform’s benefits are still sparse. There are a lot of things to be said about how CrossFit is implemented, but overall, the methodology is based on performing 'functional movements' as heavy and as fast as possible to gain strength as quickly as possible. And if you do not already know how to properly squat, deadlift, pull, hinge, curl, press, swing, clean, etc., it can be extremely risky to perform such movements under the supervision of coaches, who are NOT required to have any accredited-fitness certifications or applicable degrees in order to become a 'certified-CrossFit Coach.' Just check the main CrossFit website for proof. All you need to do is pay (a lot) to complete a two-day workshop, and Boom! you are a CrossFit trainer. (Burning red flag!) As such, you have participants performing complex moves without proper form, such as the Russian Kettlebell Swing. Add in the American Swing, and you are placing participants in a high-risk category for injury, without any body of scientific evidence outlining the benefits. Coaches' experiences certainly differs from one CrossFit 'Box' to another. However, I highly recommend looking at other programs with trainers who have both the accredited knowledge-base and experience. Do some prior research before beginning any program! I strongly contend that those of us who are professional fitness trainers, we should ultimately choose exercises that minimize risk and maximize the benefits that will help the client move better and gain strength, among other goals. Client safety is a priority. The American KB Swing is not one of those exercises. Shoulder stability, which is highly at risk with the American KB Swing, is one of the most important aspects to nearly all functional movements. It's not a big muscle group (aside from maybe Ronnie Coleman), but it's a key group of muscles in our everyday movement. It's also a muscle group that is very often incorrectly utilized or misused. Bottom line--protect your shoulders through proper form and muscle engagement! As for other 'bad' movements, each one should be evaluated by the same standard. When in doubt, follow the science and the scientific-method.

[@lebe-stark]

Thanks for sharing Janet! I‘m picking apart this study and I‘ll make a video about it. Thanks for relaying the information and you shared some great points! - Gregory

[@janetneice8488]

@@lebe-stark can’t wait for the video!

[@coreymwamba5417]

It's so interesting to watch this after watching your most recent one about Eliot Hulse. I wonder if you've ever revisited your previous reactions, as I think your philosophy has changed.

[@frankquinn9679]

Two thoughtful, knowledge content creators engaging in a respectful, constructive debate about kettlebell technique and training? Is this even allowed?!😂

[@moritzschafer3977]

Great video Gregory! Danke für die geilen Videos!

[@KenNakajima07]

Just lifting shoulders in external rotation and internal with no weight whatsoever feels way too different, you have a great point, I followed through both types of movements with no weight, internal rotation like in the way you recommend feels much more comfy, then when adding weight it feels ok, the other felt like an eventual soreness of ligaments waiting to happen.

[@deanmacreavy2135]

Looking forward to it Gregory. She's made so many great videos and it'll be interesting to hear what she says if you get a podcast going 😁

[@jlb7289]

Really appreciate your thoughtful videos! This was very helpful. My thought is, the American swing is risky and unnecessary since there are other established overhead exercises that will help me get the job done.

[@MrChavras]

hi Gregory thank you for all the information about the ketlebell i learn a lot from you and i am still learning, I tried the American swing i don't do it often but i feel a difference from other overhead exercises because at the top part of the swing i feel the ketlebell weightless i don't feel any pressure on my arm like when i do snatch or press and i am fixing the ketlebell overhead, i don't know if this still dangerous for my shoulder but i feel more danger from the difficulty to keep a good form when i get tired or i give more force and the bell flip over and fall on my head like some video i saw at a cross fit competition

[@danielkirchmaier9328]

Was auch noch ein wichtiger Punkt im American Swing ist, wenn beide Hände so eng geschlossen über den Kopf gebracht werden müssen, muss die Overhead Mobility schon wahnsinnig gut sein. Meistens sehr ich aber eher eine Kompensation, weil das nicht geht, und die passiert oft in einem Hohlkreuz. Kettlebell Snatch einhändig oder mit einer Langhantel sind hier die bessere Wahl durch den größeren Abstand zwischen den Händen (vor allem Langhantel), da ist die Mobilitätsanforderung nicht ganz so heftig.

[@robinnegus6499]

Do you think the hardstyle snatch has this same sort of issue? because the end position is still elevated with internal rotation; but it get there in the manner of a high pull and not just flexion of the delt…

[@lebe-stark]

I think the snatch position allows for more space in the shoulder joint. That said, the internal rotation is always some sort of concern to me hence I like to keep my thumbs back in the top fixation. Thanks for sharing Robin! - Gregory

[@robinnegus6499]

Lebe Stark I’ve noticed how diligent you are about maintaining external rotation in any movement requiring overhead fixation, I’ve actually started to mimic your technique for the strict press for this very reason, but I gotta say I love my hard style snatch, so I I’m just gonna have to make sure I pack my shoulder good and hope for the best…🤷🏼‍♂️ Thank you for everything you two are doing for the kettlebell community! ❤️🙏✌🏼

[@2009pepepanama]

Good points, and I bet Corey will agree, most PT will also agree, about the neutral position of your hands and saving your shoulders

[@fourfifths1238]

The only way I can do it without putting my shoulders in an compromising position is if I keep the kettlebell close to the body, making the movement more of a two handed kb snatch.

[@artwebb6939]

My understanding is that the American swing was originally developed as a version of the swing that was easily judged in CrossFit Games Because regular swings are sometimes performed as low as bellybutton height by people who using heavier kettlebells in order to prioritize strength That's just how it was explained in a video by, if I remember correctly, Christian Thibaudeau In regards to studies of kettlebell training, the only one I've actually read was one comparing kettlebell training to barbell training, that was not an attempt to discover the truth, but simply to confirm a bias, as the methodology seemed it to be deliberately set up to favor the barbell

[@lebe-stark]

Thanks for sharing Art! Do you remember the study? - Gregory

[@artwebb6939]

@@lebe-stark I can't find it at the moment, but both Bret Contreras and strong first head posts covering the methodological problems of the study Basically what they did was finding the one rep max for the barbell group for each exercise, and then train them with a percentage of that, as you would normally do with barbell training The kettlebell group they just arbitrarily gave a 16 kilo kettlebell, regardless of strength level Here's a link to the discussion of it on the strongfirst forms www.strongfirst.com/community/threads/strength-study-barbell-vs-kettlebell.11738/

[@Rupfer79]

If you hang at a pullup bar or do an overhead press with a barbell, the arms are internally rotated too, if you use a pronated grip. Why is a dead hang something beneficial for the shoulder? Doesn't that affect the bursa too?

[@lebe-stark]

Great observation! Pull Ups and Barbell Press/ Snatch usually are done with a wider grip. This allows for more space in the shoulder. - Gregory

[@Rupfer79]

@@lebe-stark guter Punkt ... danke für die Antwort :)

[@lebe-stark]

Sehr gern geschehen! 💪- Gregory

[@simonhinkel4086]

A big thing might be the way you are in control of the kettlebell at the top. It might be a big difference, if you swing it up full force forcing the kettlebell against you flexibility border or if you get it up there controlled and stopping it gently without stressing the connective tissue

[@8BitDeadlift]

I never understood why you wouldn't just snatch it if you wanted to take it overhead. Yeah it takes a little more technique and mobility but developing those is an integral part of kettlebell training.

[@meebrbey]

Yeah, I think a snatch or double snatch would be better

[@eamonob84]

I’ve never understood why people don’t just snatch, other than it’s harder and takes more skill. Plus, if you really want to go heavier overhead with both arms, do a double snatch.

[@MeeksLp]

This is a great video I have shoulder impingement and I have been doing the American swing recently and after seeing this im quitting.I definitely need to see a physiotherapist

[@lebe-stark]

Glad to help! - Gregory

[@Voidrunner01]

Another potential drawback of the "American" swing, aside from the shoulder issues, is that exactly because so many people have that poor, kyphotic posture, when they go to get the kettlebell overhead, the lack of shoulder mobility increases the pressure exerted on the lumbar spine, putting it into excessive extension. So not only can you damage your shoulders with it, the risk for low-back injury is significantly increased. This gets worse with fatigue as well and we all know how CrossFit loves fatigue.

[@eamonob84]

Yep, this exactly. Plus the push of the head forward so many of them do, putting the neck out of alignment with the spine with weight overhead almost behind you. Not a good spot.

[@WalksAlone]

I agree to 90%; unfortunately there is a discrepancy in the general reason "against" the American swing. It was originally adopted A: as a warmup exercise, and B: to activate the lower trapezius- as a form of posture- correction exercise (Thoracic extension..). It's an excellent exercise for that purpose. It was adopted and subsequently popularized by CrossFit because it is a two-handed, overhead lift that requires "little skill" at the top of the move, with the added safety of the two handed grip so that the overly exerted CrossFit'er has little chance of dropping the Kettelbell on his/her head. -On a side note; Crossfit uses Dumbbells to emulate kettlebell exercises exactly because of this supposed "risk-reward ratio". Slowing down and being skillful doesn't seem to be sexy enough for their ratings/ affiliation- rates. 🤓

[@wellnesspathforme6236]

Error also has to figured into the equation. What are the odds something goes wrong? If this increases... be aware. The risk/reward changes, and maybe one of those 527 exercises looks better now. If something goes wrong, what are the potential consequences? Again, if they are worse, the cost benefit drops. And the real point is -- are your basics really rock solid at high reps and high weights? if not, why are you so easily distracted?

[@timgerber5563]

As a CrossFitter who discovered the beauty of kettlebells during lockdown when gyms were closed, I see truth in both sides. First of all, yes the shoulder position is compromised in the final position. However, there are two different ways of getting there. One „bad“ way where the elbows lead the way and you already bring the kettlebell up already with a strong inward rotation and a better way where you effectively use your hips kind of like in a barbell snatch to propulse the kettlebell upwards and rotate your shoulders outward by using the lower traps as well. Of course a narrower grip will make this harder. So a competition kettlebell might not be as suited for this exercise as a iron cast one with a wider handle. That being said, I believe the american kbs helps people develop a feeling for the triple extension that happens in barbell weightlifting while not being as complex as a kb snatch. I wouldn’t use it too much and certainly not if you have shoulder issues. So if you aren’t a CrossFitter, I wouldn’t use the exercise, because the kb snatch is similar in muscle activation patterns and you still have the russian swing. Another reason why I believe CrossFit included the exercise is because it fits their definition of a good exercise being one where a weight is moved over a long distance. For the same reason the sumo deadlift highpull had been included, but you seldomly see it programmed anymore, because people have become aware that the downsides outway the upsides.

[@lebe-stark]

Thanks for sharing Tim! - Gregory

[@darrelgibson5487]

Thank you sir

[@meebrbey]

I saw an exercise, a kettlebell suitcase low anchor clean and press ..you do one side then the other ..is this an exercise good for beginners?

[@milesgervais9424]

Left out is a simple safety issue; what happens if you somehow lose grip over your head in the American swing? Snatch, press, jerk; all safer overhead options.

[@kirank5253]

Hey, I would like to know what's your opinion on clubbells and other such equipment

[@lebe-stark]

I think clubbells are a a great supplement to kettlebell training. - Gregory

[@oldschoolkarate-5o]

i’m 42 , should i wear a weight belt when doing the kettle bell swing? my lower back muscles get sore the next day, I think it might help my form. thnx , great channel

[@lebe-stark]

If your form is safe, your lower back will always feel it the most because it's the weakest link in the chain. It should subside though after a while. - Gregory

[@oldschoolkarate-5o]

@Lebe Stark thanks, i’ll work on my form , no weight belt

[@annawettergren3054]

I have always wanted to try the snatch but have not been brave enough to try, because I feel like it is a very difficult movement. I do the overhead press and also windmill, but should I try and learn the snatch any way? Sadly I have no trained professionals I can turn to in my area so I have to learn by watching videos, which in it self feels a bit unsafe.

[@lebe-stark]

Thank you for sharing Anna! Your body is giving you good signs and it's great you're listening to it! The snatch is a powerful; yet a very complicated exercise to learn. If you have no access to proper coaching, you can stay with the press and perfect its technique. - Gregory

[@faithandfitness421]

Love her and follow her and I see your points made. Watching Obi doing the American Swing me say no. He can do it, I don’t have that desire...

[@drunknnirish]

My thought has always been if you want to work overhead do it with the king of overhead movements the press.

[@jaymebevington9682]

I would never attempt the American swing. Just watching people do it scares me because of how out of place their shoulder end up looking at the top of the movement. I'd opt for safer exercises that don't make me feel like I could pop my shoulder out of joint! Do you think you could do a video on nutrition and supplements that support kettlebell training? Like what are your thoughts on necessary foods, protein powders, creatine, etc in support of building strength?

[@lebe-stark]

Great suggestion! - Gregory

[@spursblood1]

I love the Redefining Strength channel and her videos are ace but I have to agree that the American swing is risky and dangerous. I'd only use this move with a super light bell as a finisher so i can maintain control of the bell, Going heavy on this is asking for trouble, losing grip, etc, injury. ,

[@oldgeezerfitnessr.perales7344]

No need to get mad......the CrossFit " swing" is really just a way for judges to count the rep....the kb swing is a ballistic move that sends the weight to waist or slightly above waist level with a proper hip snap and no lifting with the arms........no way the kb ( if it is a decent weight) will get above the shoulder level with just a hip snap! The bench press is not really an ancient exercise.....early gyms didn't even have benches for this motion! Pushups were done as the main movement in this plane....benches showed up later.....kettlebells do have a tendency to bother the shoulders with the snatch movement.

[@khajitofdoom9350]

If your going to swing that high up, why not just snatch instead? I'm fairly new to kettlebells

[@lebe-stark]

Great observation! A snatch would be a much better alternative. - Gregory

[@nonobebert7646]

Rudnev's Halfmoon move looks like an American swing with a 180.

[@jasonwelsh417]

Top three reasons I stay away from Crossfit: American Swing, Kipping Pullups, Worm Burpees

[@lebe-stark]

Brooke Well's recent injury in the CF games is what's (still) wrong with its philosophy. - Gregory

[@barbarajohnson3876]

I really like her

[@fanatic1933]

If I want to push my self ill use my 20kg KB with alternating swings

[@ANTWNAS1975]

It is the worst ,hands down. She is really good, i watch her very often.

[@יצחקארגמן-צ9ע]

❤

[@aitagarcia5176]

Thanks for the info. I watch to know how to do kettlebells correctly. Love kettlebells!!

[@lebe-stark]

Happy to help Aita! - Gregory