Is the Church Pro-Gay?

[@SerenityNow22]

I’ve ordered his book. I have a “gay” brother. Love this guy’s boldness! We need more of it. Enough softening of these issues.

[@dansaber4427]

You can be LGBT and Christian 👨‍❤️‍👨

[@Somerandomnamex]

@@dansaber4427 in your other comments you admit that you are not a Christian nor are you even religious whatsoever. Please stop spreading misinformation about topics which you know nothing about.

[@SaltAndGracePoetry]

@@dansaber4427 Dan, Satan loves you. You are truly his man.

[@SerenityNow22]

@@dansaber4427 no. No you cannot. LGBT is by definition coveting. It is desiring what God has said you cannot have. Two men do not go together. Two women do not go together. They do not bring forth life but death. Spiritual and physical death. Stop hating our homosexual neighbours.

[@dansaber4427]

@@SerenityNow22 actually upon closer inspection those verses describe the Fellowship you find yourself in. Who you are authentically is actively being dominated by the ideal you. That's the bad kind of ss relationship the Bible is talking about. Is Jesus your husband? Because you're cheating on him.

[@heather5926]

Only what God says matters. The true church is certainly not for anything God is against. Many false “churches” have twisted the truth into lies.

[@hisservants8003]

Jon, you may want to check out the live chat. You had a chatter who was not happy with the conversation. Never can be too careful in these times. Good discussion. The church has to stop with this side B nonsense. We have to stand on the Word.

[@carolfoster6990]

It is encouraging to see people stepping up, looking sin in the eye, and not afraid of calling it out for what it is. Over the last 100 years, we have grown increasingly more and more lethargic in calling sin for what it is and LBGQT++++ is just one area. You can see compromises being made in child rearing, modesty, and education just to mention a few places where we look more and more like the secular than the holy. Lord, thank you for raising up men who are not afraid to call out sinful behavior compassionately yet with intolerance. Help your children, Father, not to be afraid to speak the word of truth with conviction and boldness.

[@philliplovelady]

Well done Rev Mathis! He’s taking on the subject with truth and grit. You have articulated what legions of Christians know to be true.

[@laurenkuo2333]

Very insightful. I'm thinking of the Heidelberg's Question 2 that asks, "How do I come to know the joy and comfort of belonging to Jesus?" The answer has three parts but the first is know the misery of my sin. So I wonder if we are doing a disservice by trying to soften or lessen the misery of the sin of being gay. Let them experience the misery so that they will look for deliverance in Christ; don't allow them to be comfortable.

[@kristineopsommer]

Well said.

[@timalexwar]

I can say that if one is trapped in the sin of homosexuality while truly seeking the Lord, one will definitely be miserable. Repentance is possible, but NOT easy, although the Grace and mercy of the Living God makes a pathway clear towards repentance and restoration if one is truly willing. I know that Jesus' blood cleanses us from every sin, and in terms of God's redemption, is more deeply efficacious than the damage our sin does to our soul. But restoring a heart to peace and genuine reception of forgiveness is really not easy, nor as casual as some would teach it to be, at least in my case. There are internal consequences of conscience which follow sinning against God, at least in my case. And there are very real attacks upon my mind from the destroyer of souls, our enemy the devil, which include overwhelming guilt, and a constant need for reassurance of forgiveness and sense of restoration. This spiritual battle is why I say that true repentance is not easy. It's an intense fight.

[@SomeIsBest]

The Church herself is not pro-gay, but the c-suite in all these organizations sure giving off vibes.

[@timalexwar]

This is a very good discussion, very hard-hitting and painful to someone like me who has spent a lifetime dealing with homosexuality, all the while realizing that deeper sins in me exist which manifest in homosexual feelings and behavior. I was on a path of repentance from 1992 up until about 8 years ago when I "relapsed". I got back on the path of repentance about a year and a half ago. I cannot allow for any teaching (or anyone) which coddles this sin such as Side B, or the philosophy which argues for acceptance of "same-sex attractions" as long as I don't act upon them. That's an insidious and dangerous, compromising "theology" creeping into The Church, the Body of Christ. I have to be ruthless with myself if I am to avoid the pitfalls which led to my soul-damning relapse. It's an extremely difficult path and I am often hit with temptation from out of the blue. The big problem is that I don't see a clear path of repentance within the church in a general sense. I went through 4 years of an ex-gay residential program, which was effective insofar as helping me cease all addictive behavior. I even worked on staff subsquently for about a year. But even within that particular ministry, I felt the overarching sense that one could not change what one was intrinsically or constitutionally. THAT was a fatal error in my thinking! I also spent 7 years living a monastic life in Orthodox Monasteries. I was "on the narrow path" for close to 25 years before I fell back into homosexual behavior. After falling or relapsing for close to 8 years, and realizing that I had to repent, a desperate kind of "last-minute-or-I-am-doomed" repentance, has been fruitful insofar as separating me from all behaviors and triggers. But I am not totally immune from temptation in my heart, which scares me. But my point is, I am now in a very good Reformed and somewhat strict church. However, I feel isolated in many ways because I know that this is a sin which I cannot freely discuss with anyone. In fact, I've been there a year and a half and have brought my "story" up with only one elder and one of the pastors. What I need though is a path, a daily and hourly path upon which to walk that is truly the path of repentance unto the saving of my soul. Philippians 2:12,13 "...work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, [i]with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ). [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while [j]effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight."(Amplified Version). I would love support in the struggle, but I don't feel at ease asking for specific help on days when I do feel overwhelmed by not necessarily or solely temptation, but the gravity of how seriously I have sinned and the damage to my heart and soul, and how it has ruined or at least negatively impacted and wasted my life. I bear the consequences, but I pray earnestly for the opportunity to repent. I believe quite literally that I truly do have to die daily to my self, that I have to take up my cross daily, that I have to lose my life in order to gain my life... I thoroughly embrace these teachings and admonitions of Jesus. The way is truly very narrow, and I must truly strive with agonizing efforts to enter into the kingdom. But for me, the choice or decision to do anything else is deadly. I know this now. Part of my repentance these days is confronting the sins which I earlier stated are the deeper issues which contributed to the development of my homosexual feelings and subsequent behavior. I agree that an "ex-gay" accountability group is not the right thing - for me. Nor are any of those who are in the side-B camp. But as I stated above, it's a difficult path to be on alone. Thank you for your hard-hitting truth-telling discussion. My only objection was to hear that people who struggle with homosexuality are difficult to witness to or to bring to salvation in Jesus, and not worth the time or effort, according to Pastor Shawn Mathis. If the way to Jesus is prevented, or denied to anyone who struggles and desires salvation and genuine repentance , then there truly is no other hope! I would like to hear more about his methods for true, authentic, life-changing repentance. Hopefully he examines that in his book, which I am now interested in reading.

[@th6252]

I know many churches, especially reformed churches, offer discipleship programs. Maybe you could inquire if your pastor and/or the elders can offer that to you for learning/growth/encouragement/accountability? And I agree with you about what Pastor Mathis said. Although there may be a time we need to “kick the dust from our feet” we must also remember it’s not our job to save, but to bear witness for it is God who gives the increase.

[@SaltAndGracePoetry]

Praying for you brother. It sounds like you may have read "the mortification of sin" By John Owen. If not you should definitely buy it and read it as soon as possible. Praying for you for a contrite heart and spirit and a godly sorrow.

[@Somerandomnamex]

Praying for you! You can do this brother! Your on the right path now

[@conceptualclarity]

I think his point was not don't witness to them but he doesn't see so much value in what Cru was advocating that you look upon them as a people group to be specifically targeted.

[@conceptualclarity]

In that respect I see the people who involve themselves in such targeting seem to inevitably adopt a very compromised view and are prone like Andrew Marin even to go over to apostasy

[@davidchilton4301]

Great video - glad to see Shawn given a long form interview to explore his important book.

[@conceptualclarity]

The ordination of Sam Allberry is a gross error. The Bible vehemently and repeatedly commands in Proverbs that we pursue and walk in wisdom. Wisdom requires that we learn from other people's mistakes rather than being stubborn fools who have to recreate all those mistakes ourselves. We have seen for decades one of the greatest scandals in church history with the predator priest scandal of the Roman Catholic Church. They operated under the assumption that it was okay to ordain SSAs since all priests take their vows of chastity. But obviously the SSA priests violated those vows at a hugely greater rate than the straight priests. The scandal was inevitable because SSAs are drastically more prone to predation on the underaged, as the author mentioned twice. Now the Catholic Church takes the official stance that the seminaries are not a place for SSAs. But evangelical elites don't get it.

[@gregoryrice9998]

We need repentance and revival in the Churches so much

[@bc5441]

Thank you Pastor Mathis. This is an excellent book.

[@SerenityNow22]

This was really helpful. Also makes me think of the missionary couple who was recently murdered in Haiti. Haiti has had the gospel preached there for 200 years. At what point do we kick the dust off our feet and move on?

[@johntobey1558]

Never.

[@ZephaniahL]

When it was under French rule, you mean to say the Gospel was not preached?

[@SerenityNow22]

@@johntobey1558 I don’t mean forever but our time and resources are better spent elsewhere at this time.

[@SerenityNow22]

@@ZephaniahL I went off of what I heard someone else say. My apologies, they’ve had light for much longer.

[@conceptualclarity]

My own inclination is to respect when people say they are called by the Lord to go minister there. At the same time we need not wrack ourselves with guilt saying that it's all our fault that they're in the mess that they're in

[@robertcolton4182]

What about the probability that many professing Christians who come for counseling about their homosexual behavior are not truly converted? I think that is why such counseling is usually ineffective.

[@conceptualclarity]

I like the refreshing contrast of this guy to the winsome crowd. I think his approach is probably a little more hard-edged than mine would be, but I think it's a needed corrective. I like the willingness to be candid about the exceptionally sordid nature of the lifestyle and culture in view. I do think that we should pray fervently for the conversion of the alphabet folks but at the same time we don't need to have a targeted ministry toward them like the downgrade crowd at Cru advocates. I think targeted gray ministries are going to inevitably fall into the mentality of Side B and throw-God's-people-under-the-bus that we saw in the abhorrent Cru videos. I think that God can bring the people who are ripe for conversion across the paths of His people. We don't need to go hang out in gray bars.

[@TheAmericanGirl1967]

Thank you, gentlemen!

[@earthlingposer]

Jesus said to repent! for the kingdom of God is at hand! Let's tell people to repent of sin..so they can receive the gospel !

[@conceptualclarity]

42:46 If they started feeling SSA at 12 years old it was porn or molestation for sure.

[@johntobey1558]

This is an important debate and discussion. Harvest Ministries in Dresher, Pa is an excellent ministry to the sexually broken started at 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia and niw meets at Dresher, Pa in Suburban Montgomery County helping sexually broken men including those attempting to defeat same sex attraction. HARVEST minstry U.S.A. invite theirbexecutive director on to have effective further dialique on these important issues.

[@timalexwar]

Here's a question that I have. After 25 years of celibacy and abstinence from my homosexual behavior I relapsed for about 8 years. I repented and returned to the Lord in repentance and in a way which is deeper than I have ever known. I feel that I am on that path of repentance for the past year and a half and continue day by day to make every effort to walk in submission and obedience. I have the thought that I have put myself under a sort of self-imposed period of discipline and restoration. I attend church on Sundays regularly, I participate in weekly Bible Study and I go to every open prayer meeting throughout the week (Mon.Wed.Fri.) But I withdraw from every other activity which requires more openness or transparency such as helping lead with Bible Studies, which is something I've done in the past. I feel the need for deep repentance, and actually some kind of discipline or scourging as Hebrews puts it. But I don't know if this is something that The Lord has put upon my heart to undergo or if this is my self-effort to "punish" myself for having fallen away. I wrote more of my "story" below. I am not even comfortable enough to bring this aspect of my repentance up with the elders or pastors in my church, but I may need to. There are two staff members who know about my history and my fall and return to a life of attempted repentance and restoration to an obedient life.

[@gilbertnicholson1595]

Scourging and chastening are indeed scriptural (Job 5: 17-18; Proverbs 3: 11-12; Hebrews 12: 5-13), but you don’t do it to yourself, the Lord initiates it with the intent to bring correction, righteousness and holiness. Our job is not to despise or reject the pain associated with chastening, but to correct, or as Hebrews 12:13 says: “Make straight paths for your feet so that which was made lame won’t be dislocated, but rather healed.”

[@timalexwar]

@@gilbertnicholson1595 Thanks for this, Gilbert. In my desire for full repentance and restoration, I guess that I can get a bit neurotic. I don't want to be left out of The Kingdom, and I don't want to chart my Christian walk outside or independent of the fellowship of the Body of Christ.

[@Anonymous-cm9md]

God Bless. We lay our burdens down & Jesus helps us because he is our advocate & he is interceding for you. God Bless you for your witness. Persevere and stay in God’s Word.

[@timalexwar]

@@Anonymous-cm9md Thanks for your support! I sometimes panic when I see the depths of my sin and forget the depths of God's forgiveness.

[@fberfer]

From Oregon we had to go to closed Communion to members because of equal access. Activists target the "antigay" churches which are easy to find from website, that we are Reformed (Baptist). Others had a lower hedge so ended up offering to them and were embarrassed with victorious statements.

[@DannyMac100]

Where can I find consolidated info on what Sam Alberry believes on this subject?

[@conceptualclarity]

I would try Enemies in the Church. I think they have something called Wokepedia

[@dandathomas6852]

Sam Allberry is a homosexual who uses the euphemism SSA. What he believes or thinks is irrelevant.

[@ZUnit06]

In that intro discussion, about where we should focus missions efforts, Mathis seems to be using an approach similar to secular church growth strategies… put your time, money and resources in to where you will see most growth / fruit. Which I am not saying is necessarily a “wrong approach” but to pose it as “the way” to do ministry is dangerous in my mind. It replaces the role of the Holy Spirit with man’s wisdom and understanding. It is results driven and views things from a temporal perspective. Sure Japan doesn’t have a lot of converts. But what if the Holy Spirit is calling people there to create a small community of faithful Christians that will do something big in the country 10, 20, 30+ years from now? We should be careful to judge ministry approaches based on things that are outside our control. I’m not saying ignore a group or population that seems to be ready for the harvest. But his dogmatic approach seems off to me… I wouldn’t want to normalize approaches that ought to be more of an exception but I also wouldn’t want to say that we can’t have an exception the norm. We need to leave room for the Holy Spirit. Just my 2 cents though…

[@conceptualclarity]

I agree but if you look evangelical elite which in the 21st century has had Tim Keller as its de facto Pope, there is a great love for the liberal lost and a great tendency to blame the church for their lostness

[@conceptualclarity]

There has been this Blue strategy that has been written about in which disproportionate effort and resources have been poured into winning liberal people in Blue areas

[@conceptualclarity]

while at the same time the non-progressive unwashed masses and conservatives have been regarded with contempt and antipathy and have been neglected

[@conceptualclarity]

The Blue strategy has failed. It has not built a future for evangelicalism in America. It is building a future for deconstruction and apostate progressive Christianity as exemplified by Cru & its trajectory.

[@conceptualclarity]

I think we need to be cultivating a love for the lost Americans whom Tim Keller and his acolytes clearly have not loved

[@kenobi4582]

good convo

[@ZephaniahL]

If you can stomach a Catholic, as I hope, please talk to Robert K. Reilly, author of Making Gay Okay (he is against it, thank the Maker).

[@tubalcain6874]

Stomach a Catholic? Evangelicals 🤦🏻

[@ZephaniahL]

@@tubalcain6874 I am Catholic.

[@conservativemama3437]

This was excellent

[@chiefofsinners5272]

"...a molestation experience.. @ 44:30-ish. Check out Jon Uhler as it's good to ask if the claim, (like pedos) is true or a way to not be held accountable.

[@ichabodcrane2959]

The reason they don't want the Audry Hale information out is because the parents of the victims don't want it out

[@ichabodcrane2959]

@CP-dk8oi Perhaps. But that's the reason why. I don't find anything in it surprising any way. No real news.

[@ichabodcrane2959]

@CP-dk8oi Are the parents of the victims the usual suspects? That is the main reason it has been concealed.

[@reys7510]

Colorado got californicafed

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

Evangelism and missions must be biblically based, not accommodating to the wicked culture. 5:41

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

The eternal decree to reprobation is real! 9:34

[@actsapologist1991]

It seems to me that there are three sides: Side 1: Experiencing same-sex attraction a sin. Acting upon it is a sin. Side 2: Experiencing same-sex attraction is OK. Acting upon it is a sin. Side 3: Acting upon same-sex attraction is a sin. But the temptation is best compared to diabetes or cancer. Bad, but not in a morally culpable way. As I listen to this channel discussing this matter, I also hear about Sides 1 and 2, but never 3.

[@actsapologist1991]

@CP-dk8oi : In #2, same sex attraction is thought of as being neutral or OK. It is just fine to have, perhaps something God positively wants you to have. In #3, same-sex attraction is regarded as bad. It's considered to be like diabetes, cancer, or schizophrenia. That is to say, an ailment which folks would want to be rid of. But not something a person needs to repent of having.

[@actsapologist1991]

@CP-dk8oi True. They share in common that they don't regard SSA as culpable sin. But they differ in that one treats it like having brown hair, and the other regards it like having diabetes.

[@tromboneman4517]

I think it’s clear from the Bible that even the desire is sinful. Let alone the acting upon it.

[@RoyalProtectorate]

Self repression of these groups is arguably the worst situation to put someone in, and could lead to people ultimately just leaving church all together which will spell the doom for most of these churches

[@ZephaniahL]

Explain ‘self-repression.’ Not sodomizing, you mean?

[@conceptualclarity]

Altogether unclear

[@business77658]

This was a good discussion, BUT you're "majoring in the minors." The majority of men in churches are not LGBT, but the majority of them are belligerent, and they need accusations of LGBT to blackmail their competition. So your enemy is not LGBT, but church competitiveness. The issue is how to corporately discipline individual aggressive bulligerent competitive men who are masking as masculine, so that you can then deal with the LGBT problem (which probably will disappear at that point anyway). Please READ Titus 3.1-3

[@kinthecountry4301]

Why do you delete polite truthful comments that you don’t like? Is that godly and mature?

[@ThomasCranmer1959]

There is no such thing as "natural" law. God's moral law is written in man's heart. 12:02