Is The Embraer E175-E2 Program Dead?

[@teece900]

I think Embraer messed up by expecting the scope clause to change, if it was possible to stay within the limits and re-engine the E1 with new engines it would be a no brainer replacement for airlines.

[@MarceloTrindade1]

The E2s are more efficient aircrafts not only because of their new engines, but also because of their new wings, new horizontal stabilizers and other improvements. Besides that, to "re-engine" an aircraft doesn't mean only to change the engines; it means a complex modification in the original project. On top of that, most of the "excess" weight from the E1 to the E2 came with the new engines!

[@TheKobiDror]

As in the previous answer. Embraer developed the E2 just because they couldn't re-engine the E1s. Same problem as 737. Not enough space underneath the wings.

[@soccerguy2433]

It's not possible.

[@afcgeo882]

@@TheKobiDrorObviously not the same problem. The MAX is selling like crazy while the E175 is DOA.

[@TheKobiDror]

@@afcgeo882 and your comment is relevant towards mine because...? Sales figures have nothing to do with technical necessities. 737 engines had to be massively modified to fit under the wing. Why do NG models have the flat bottom? And their are still smaller than the same engine on Airbus planes - or E1s for that matter. So Embraer learned a lesson and avoided that mistake.

[@paulomatheus_]

They should make a E170-E2. It could probably fit the scope clause and get closer to E175-E1 in capacity seats

[@MarceloTrindade1]

There's no need for that. Embraer is not losing anything. They continue to sell the 175-E1s to the American market. The only losers with this situation are the airlines, that could operate a more efficient model.

[@alexartukov]

E1s are more reliable so aurlines earn money on them not loose

[@nntflow7058]

@ You don't know what you're talking about kiddo.

[@Fastliner8]

As someone who had a hand in testing manufacturing parts for the e2-175 as a subcontractor for embrair. I hope they can put this into production so that it brings more work to the company i work for

[@John-bi1lv]

The scope clauses are not changing in the US. That was a major miscalculation

[@JimMacintosh]

Same in Canada

[@stradivarioushardhiantz5179]

The VIP version of 175-E2 would be great to fly 4000nm

[@aerialbugsmasher]

I have 6,000+ hours flying Embraer aircraft and a high regard for their designs, I was shocked they mismanaged the new program by making the planes too large for US airline scope rules-the cornerstone of their market. This is a shocking F-up given their history of well-designed programs like the 145 family and the original 175.

[@TheWolfHowling]

Unfortunately, given that the vast majority of the previous generation E175s are operated by US Regional Airlines, the E175-E2 will almost certainly live or die based on if the Scope Clause can be changed. It’s less like this aircraft will fail because it was bad but because it wasn’t allowed to be successful.

[@claudiojaramillo5177]

Love Embraer airplanes, they are very comfortable and I find their designs very attractive

[@NNotSwiss]

The E175 are nice aircraft

[@nntflow7058]

It's a light aircraft.

[@NNotSwiss]

@ yeah I know Blud. Am I not allowed to say that a certain plane is nice

[@nntflow7058]

@ I'm not disagreeing with you here.

[@NNotSwiss]

@ then there is no point of saying it if I already know. I’m not stupid

[@nntflow7058]

@ I think you missed my point completely. I agree with you about E175. It's a good aircraft. PLUS it is light enough for the scoop clause.

[@CarltonSmithAXAThunder]

they should just make a 170 again to fit the clause

[@盾神京矢]

Even thought the wings would excessively large for an E-170 E2, but still better than nothing.

[@MarceloTrindade1]

There's no need for that. Embraer is not losing anything. They continue to sell the 175-E1s to the American market. The only losers with this situation are the airlines, that could operate a more efficient model.

[@盾神京矢]

@@MarceloTrindade1 I guess P&W is another loser. The downsized (142 cm fan diameter) GTF is developed exclusively for the E175-E2 and the Mitsubishi SpaceJet (which is also cancelled mostly because of the scope clause). No one is taking that engine after all the development.

[@afcgeo882]

@@盾神京矢They don’t need the same wings as the 175.

[@John-bi1lv]

@@CarltonSmithAXAThunder the issue is engines are simply too heavy. While they may be more efficient when they're actually working they are much heavier than previous engines so you have the engine weight itself Plus the reinforcements to the wing required to support the added weight. That's what puts them over the weight limit

[@umbreonpokemon8190]

the E175 is a really nice plane but moodlighting would be a great upgrade

[@marcustaylor8779]

Scope will never change. That's a hard line in the sand for mainline pilot unions. The whole goal is protect mainline jobs from being outsourced to regional airlines.

[@iceman9678]

Protectionism promotes mediocrity in exchange for a false sense of higher wages.

[@gteixeira]

There is a huge backlog for the old 175, there is no reason why any airline would buy the newer one if the 175s typically fly very short routes, so a cheaper to buy airplane makes more sense.

[@wardogies]

The should do e E-195 original length with the E2

[@schalitz1]

Embraer F'ed up big time with the E2-175 they're completely naīve if the expect the scope clause to change. The second a competitor comes along that fits the scope clause. All the big 3 will replace their E-175s with said competition.

[@history_leisure]

I’m sure the company has an absolute minimum that they determine it’s worth the time to follow through on the program even if it would be a loss at the end of the day. However, retrofitting the existing and newer E1’s in anyway possible will probably be the only way they can meet the scope clause requirements for the foreseeable future

[@petter284]

I don't understand why they haven't changed the scope clause yet. The intention was to restrict the carriers to put larger aircraft in the regional airlines which make sense of course. But why not give the E2 an exemption? I don't think the pilot unions prefer the E1 over the E2.

[@JimMacintosh]

Why they ever thought pilots would be dumb enough to allow the scope clauses to change in their collective agreements is beyond me…..

[@rubber3dduck252]

Was on the E2 with KLM and wish US Airlines could get the jet; but as long as the Unions have the scope clause it will kill off the most fuel efficiency and comfort aircraft. Personally the E2 should remove CRJ and C-Series (aka) 220 should replace the 737/classic/NG/Max.

[@schalitz1]

I'd like to see Breeze get E2-190, and could very much see them doing so in the future as they're starting to realize the A220 is too large for some of their routes.

[@scpatl4now]

It seems the E175-E2 is awfully close to the specs of the E195-E2. I don't see the need for the 175 variant

[@davidwebb4904]

First to produce a revolutionary design, wins. There's nothing revolutionary coming out of any airliner manufacturer

[@w8stral]

Aerodynamics is 100 year old tech. You do not make $$$ building new aircraft as the certification cost far outweighs your ability to make a profit manufacturing them. One literally has to sell several thousand as cost to certify an a380 is same cost to certify an e175. Government regulations are the problem in an old industry which is ALWAYS the case in EVERY old industry.

[@davidwebb4904]

@ I would have thought that for a 50% increase in efficiently, they would have made the effort….

[@sainnt]

Without the US market, Embraer would be in deep financial trouble. This is why I don't see them developing a new, larger narrowbody aircraft to compete with the 737 or A320. The development costs would be unbearable.

[@cpgoef6]

Ya, airline unions aren’t going to allow changes to scope clauses any time soon. As soon as they change it, at least half the large airlines will cut mainline flights to pay regional pilots to fly instead because they’re cheaper to pay.

[@eamonahern7495]

I think they should continue with the E2 development with a focus on other markets.

[@TS-yb8xe]

Why they dont continue with E170-E2 instead to lower the MTOW.

[@GH-oi2jf]

Doesn't the scope ckause only apply to US airlines? Why isn't the model selling elsewhere?

[@user-cc7vx7sw4z]

Same reason the A220-100 isn’t selling as well as the A220-300

[@afcgeo882]

@@user-cc7vx7sw4zThe -300 is selling.

[@TheKobiDror]

Scope clause = US market. It's unique in their design. Lots of subsidized regional routes. These conditions don't apply on other markets.

[@DJAYPAZ]

Given the extraordinarily long wait times to secure 737 max aircraft, is there an opportunity for Embraer to develop an aircraft for that market? Embraer aircraft are flown in markets out side of the USA. QantasLink flys them in Australia. Other countries fly Embraer aircraft as well.

[@athrunzala3358]

End production of the E175 and force a change to the scope clause.

[@bretthullrampage]

They can't force a scope change. Pilot unions would have to agree to it which will never happen.

[@ronparrish6666]

Flown on Porter there a nice plane

[@Kebria]

E175-E2 issue is nothing compared to defective P&W engines which has grounded A220's and other E2's

[@heyitsmicoooo]

make a video on the Mitsubishi SpaceJet next!

[@JungleJetAviation06]

I have no idea why Embraer is still producing the E1 tbh.

[@kennethahaotu8087]

Who else saw the landing at 1:12

[@zionismisterrorism8716]

Yes.

[@vladilenkalatschev4915]

E-Jet is my favorite family of aircrafts

[@rudivandoornegat2371]

Yes, outside the USA markets like China, Latin-America, India, Africa, Indonesia.

[@planelover234]

markets outside US is pretty slim for regional jets especially in Asia. Majorly in any Asian country they use 737 and A320 family or they use turboprops such as Q400 or ATR72. It could be a good fit for African market but they wont buy it as turboprops are more fuel efficient and the E2 used the GTF which has reliability issues

[@MarceloTrindade1]

The E-175 E2 was conceived basically to substitute the E-175 E1 in the American market (in a scenario in which the scope clause was slightly adjusted). Markets outside the US are buying the E-195 E2.

[@planelover234]

@@MarceloTrindade1 Yeah scope clause needs a change. I don't know how climate activist are silent on this issue.

[@Sacto1654]

I think Embraer should just drop the E175-E2 and concentrate on getting more E195-E2 sales. The E195-E2 might be the perfect plane to replace the large number of 737-700's not operated by Southwest Airlines.

[@schalitz1]

Most airlines in need have already gravitated towards the A220-300, as it's essentially identical in size whereas the E2-195 is a decent bit smaller.

[@Sacto1654]

@@schalitz1 I think the success of the E195-E2 in Porter Airlines service may convince other airlines to consider the plane. Mostly because of the major backlog for the A220 at Airbus.

[@schalitz1]

@@Sacto1654 Fair point, time will tell. I think both the A220-100 and E2-195 will take a few more years for orders to pick up. Getting Hawaiian Airlines to replace their 717s with E2s would be a HUGE win for Embraer.

[@Sacto1654]

@ I doubt that Hawaiian Airlines would replace their 717-200 fleet soon. With the retirement of Qantas' 717-200 fllet operated by QantasLink, the ex-Qantas planes could go into service with Hawaiian and/or be used as spare parts sources to keep the 717-200 fleet going.

[@neilpickup237]

Roll on a hypothetical E3 with hypothetical new generation lighter engines to allow a return to SCOPE compliance.

[@neilpickup237]

This isn't the first time that a manufacturer has developed a variant in the misguided hope of a favourable classification. The A318 being a prime example.

[@joekunzler8247]

Just keep improving the E175-E1. Scope clause big deal to airline pilots.

[@4evertrue830]

Why not look towards the african avaition market for the E175 E1 and the E175 E2. Offering sweet stimulating deals to african airlines will do the trick. Most routes within african countries are between 1 and 3hr flights.

[@JohnMckeown-dl2cl]

Embraer should probably either shelve the project or make the (difficult) decision to go the route of the A220 and start to sell the larger aircraft as main line jets. The scope clause has almost no chance of changing or just maybe with a small increment like going to 80 seats or a 3% increase in MGTOW. If they are looking to the US market to make the aircraft a success, it just won't happen.

[@alexartukov]

Embraer have already considered the mainline jet as next step

[@Petriefied0246]

It sounds like the pilots union needs to have a word with themselves. They either need to move with the times or times will pass them by.

[@alaskadrifter]

Pilots have learned the hard lesson to never give away scope. Unions will not be budging one LB on scope.

[@stemogstel22]

Headcanon: SWA becomes the mainline all Embraer carrier as its 73 fleet ages out. You're welcome SWA; if you go this route, I expect credit for the idea and 10% of all revenues (gross) off of the sales using the type.

[@schalitz1]

If I was Southwest I'd take a gamble and cancel my Max 7 orders and transfer the to E2-195. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the Max 7 and 10 never get certified.

[@soccerguy2433]

As a mainline pilot i would support afjusting the scope clause to allow higher gross weight

[@petesteirer]

Make the 175 E2 long range, and I don't get why the unions continually screw up EVERYTHING!.

[@nntflow7058]

Blame the Airlines who refuse to pay pilot basic wages.

[@MrBlazemaster525]

Yes, blame the unions for the fat cats in C-suite wanting to shove more seats in planes certifications and safety risks be damned 😂😂😂😂

[@Jet-Pack]

Can they not just make a version with lower MTOW? Just increase seat pitch a bit and change the max allowed weight for that variant down for US market. CRJ550 vs CRJ700 did that exact same

[@soccerguy2433]

if they could "just make a version" they would have. but the new engines are heavier, new wing design is heavier.l

[@afcgeo882]

That’s not how MTOW works.

[@Jet-Pack]

@ If the scope clause just looks at the MTOW of the aircraft you could say, ok, lets make a specific variant, which is identical to the default ERJ 175 E2 but has a reduced allowed max takeoff weight. At the end of the day it's just a number on the type certificate and reducing it requires no extra work to proof the structural integrity. If the number of passengers is too high just remove the number of seats. Of course this might reduce the possible range, etc. and it's less efficient but perhaps the resulting aircraft would still be more efficient than the previous generation, as long as it's fully booked.

[@afcgeo882]

@ You can’t reduce the MTOW when the aircraft is just too heavy. Reducing seats in cabin doesn’t change its maximum abilities. Those are structural and power-based. Freighters have no seats and their MTOWs are HIGHER.

[@mrrolandlawrence]

Time for airbus to step in. The a220 needs embraers expertise. There is capacity at embraer. Airbus are flat out with the a320s… the Brazilians are fine engineers. Trump is about to tarrif everything. Embraer relying on the USA market is too much right now.

[@afb2]

It's a bit pre - emptive. It's hard to even justify something like this for mainline (to compete with the A220-100) because the capacity is simply not there. They should not have developed the E275 unless it was a sure thing that the scope clause would change.

[@aussiedude2034]

If you look at the backlog of A320 & B737 it makes sense for Embraer to put energy into a direct competitor. Clearly they can build a great aircraft, they have a support network in place already and it would sell amazingly well. Particularly the delivery lead times with Airbus & Boeing being so long.

[@xBris]

I've flown the E195-E2 and hated it. I've flown all non-E2 variants and they are just so much more spacious. I don't know if it's just the change in how airlines equip their seats or if it's the plane itself, but the E2 was just a very poor experience.

[@afcgeo882]

Their cabins are IDENTICAL.

[@Skippers.86]

I think the 175 is a awesome little aircraft. The E2 was developed a little too early. With that said, Embraer shouldn't solely focus on the US market.

[@schalitz1]

Outside the US and Canada there's very little demand for aircraft the size of the 175. Practically everywhere else in the world uses turboprops, like the ATR 76 and Q400, as they are cheaper to operate.

[@Skippers.86]

@schalitz1 you have a point. Didn't see it from that POV.

[@Michael_K_Woods]

The “Scope Clause” is cronyism at its absolute worst. Nobody is winning and everyone just stays poorer. I apologize for our horrible labor unions Brazil.

[@schalitz1]

"Labor unions in Brazil?" You realize it's American pilot's unions we are talking about right?

[@Michael_K_Woods]

@ was I not clear. I am apologizing to Brazil for our American crony unions.

[@ericjones7769]

That E175-E2 is a good looking bird 🐦 tho 👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿💙💙💙💙💙

[@baconmcbacon62]

I think the scope clause is bullsh** anyways and it needs to be repealed. Then, the flying public can have better jets without the politics.

[@bretthullrampage]

Nah. Scope clauses are amazing and protect the better paying jobs at legacy airlines.

[@jamesphelps1958]

Another great product murdered by the pilot unions. I don’t know how they’re allowed to get away with such extortion.

[@VisibilityFoggy]

$$$

[@onlyinfloridalol530]

First

[@corneliusanderson-t3y]

i think sodd off usa