Is The Emperor Really That Bad? - A Baldur's Gate 3 Analysis

[@scarymonsterzz]

Can't stop thinking about this one person who made their guardian look like their mom because the only prompt you get when designing them in the game is "you need a guardian, choose one" so they went "alright my mom fits that role I guess." things got awkward real fast lol.

[@PocketLeaves]

OMG? That's wild

[@dopaminedrought395]

I read a lot of comments from people saying they made the guardian after their character's mom or dad. Like damn

[@Misora7303]

I didn't made her after my mom, but I did give her your cool middle afe aunt energy and...IDK, when I am making a guardian to protect me, I am not looking for love with my wine aunt XD

[@skyesmith5683]

@@Misora7303I always make my either a lesbian godmother or gay uncle lol

[@eveellisen]

I made mine look like my sister because she doesn't play/lives far away from me, so I wanted a way to have her in the game with me 💀

[@cyborg2254]

“I had to hide my true identity because you wouldn’t trust a mind flayer!” “You idiot, did you just ignore me being friendly with Omeleum?”

[@ZeallustImmortal]

I think this one is just a writing oversight tbh

[@Maougami]

I would say he is right though. The Emperor is trying to persuade us into consuming more tadpoles and grow our Illithid powers, and if he would have shown me from the beginning that he was a mind flayer then I doubt I would have trusted him enough to go through with it. And have to add that The Emperor had already started hiding his identity from us when we meet Omeleum, and he probably would keep hiding it unless he was forced to ask us for help with the honor guards

[@aightm8]

Because it's a lie. It was manipulation, and romancing you may have got him what he wants

[@devastatheseeker9967]

​@@ZeallustImmortal Is it? Knowing that you were friendly with omeleum just shows that he's too eager to manioulate

[@jb111082]

@@devastatheseeker9967 But think of this: If you found that your dream guardian was an illithid and *lying* to you, is the thing here, lying, he only revealed his illithid form under duress

[@Slipewater]

The thing that’s really sus is that when you romance him, and your companions somehow see the whole thing with magic or whatever, he says he’ll erase their memory of it. Like wait, you can do that? Have you erased any of my memories?

[@Cellybeans]

I think that was added in later because of players being confused that no one says anything about having witnessed it. when I first romanced the emperor I did not have that line, but when I loaded an old save months later to check dialogue tree options I saw it for the first time even though it was a backup right before that event. I'm not 100% sure though.

[@ScribesVirgin]

Also, I immediately thought that he did this on purpose, sharing the whole scene with the others and that he was going to use this as revenge p*rn when you decide to act against him.

[@DTraitor]

Thing is... Not tadpoled companions can also appear there. I am pretty sure he was faking the whole thing to intimidate you

[@odonnellcaleb]

I ain't playing, Emperor. Did you ever flashy thing me?

[@Havingfun0]

I read into this until I did a dark surge story and saw what the devs thought evil actually is. “Emperor” is not just act one; it is a story device to show us that our decisions in life, in a general sense, are mostly influenced and mostly gray. It doesn’t actually matter if it’s good or bad; what matters is the outcome produced in the end.

[@GorillerViller]

The virgin emperor vs the chad omeleum

[@ahorseofcourse7283]

"I'm your friend! You NEED me! And if you reject me, I'm gonna go worship Mother Brain!" vs. "Hey, I know you're wary of me, but my hobgoblin buddy says you got a tadpole problem and I'd like to help. No pressure!"

[@Zuron]

Omeluum hypnotised the members of a research society to make a cozy brain-harvesting nest for himself. Letting his guard down against a tadpoled adventurer proved to be his downfall - a couple of Divine Smites made short work of the evil creature.

[@CeliMe007]

@@Zuron Source or bullshit

[@Zuron]

@@CeliMe007 The part about being provided with fresh brains is always included in any agreement between mind flayers and other races, they need it after all. Omeluum had a similar arrangement with a lich before (Dialogue in Act 1). The hints that Omeluum hypnotised his colleagues are in the game. Listen to how Blurg talks about Omeluum, especially in the lodge (Act 3). It and another mind flayer are actually founding members of the society, meaning they've probably controlled it from the beginning. (Book: An History of the Society of Brilliance as Told by Its Members)

[@AC-iq4gb]

​@@Zuron Cool headcanon assertion. However, killing either of them has been changed to break your Paladin Oath, meaning it's not endorsed. Where's the *actual* evidence they're truly thralls? For an example of an action speaking louder than words, Omeluum orders you to prioritize saving the Duke over them, doesn't even try to beg for their life being saved, at the Iron Throne.

[@jole8723]

Make the dream guardian look like your character. Except with a dastardly mustache.

[@Zulmofo]

This would be amazing actually

[@Toiletdeer]

kinda sad how he cant be dragonborn though :/

[@wildemary]

Oh my god I need to do this next run 😂🦑

[@LemonMoon]

I always make it look like my previous character

[@Macaronracaron.]

Next run ideas 😂

[@fairy6818]

Like Bae'Zel said about Mystra "Mystra demands Gale's faith, but has no faith in Gale. Does she not believe Gale can take down the Absolute with his own immense talent? Does she not know of the fierce companion he keeps?" Same applies to the Emperor, he wants us to believe in him, but he doesn't believe in us. Also, Mystra is a groomer. #CancelMystra2024

[@of5606]

Damn laezel really is the best girl

[@DJBlackNGold]

Haven't gotten that line yet- maybe I will now that I'm trying a romance with her. She's actually astonishingly empathetic and profound once you finish up the creche.

[@mystikphoenixgaming3279]

Just so you know mystra is not a groomer at least not the current one with gale

[@fairy6818]

@@mystikphoenixgaming3279 Minsc says: "While the girl-folk go on to rule as wychlaran, Weave-touched boys were hidden away. Trained to work their craft in silence and secrecy. It is an old custom, not well--observed/ In truth I thought it born of caution, after some catastrophe wrought by wizardly men-folk of old. Now I wonder if it was not done to hide them from Mystra, and the snares she sets for young and prideful boys, hm?" So she certainly was 100 years ago. And even the current Mystra has predatory tone.

[@NoForksGiven]

Gale seems to be one of the few people Laezel likes immediately. She quickly compliment his skills as an "orater", ask about his interest in the astral realm and even offer to teach him some of her fighter skills

[@paulakurzawinska8654]

I will never stop laughing at the fact that when I first played I made the guardian look like my Tav's toxic ex.

[@PocketLeaves]

ME TOO! THAT WAS SO WILD

[@bowenmadden6122]

Me three, and I literally made them Lolth-sworn, too! XD

[@chaos9059]

My sorcerer has crazy ex fiance. It was supposed to be an arranged marriage. As it turns out she worships Bane. The dream visitor chooses this form. That's why Orion never used the tadpoles. The red flags were too obvious.

[@ryanm2821]

My best friend made her Gaurdian Daron from System of the Down. Who she loves. She Is going to be so upset when she realizes she got catfished by a squid.

[@PocketLeaves]

Oof, my condolences to your friend!

[@ryanm2821]

Thanks I can only hope I'll be there for it. Great video as always.​@@PocketLeaves

[@artskies101]

Please let us know how it goes

[@ryanm2821]

@@artskies101 I Will! I'll copy her inevitable message if I'm not there for it. She is going to be so shocked and upset in an ultimately funny way.

[@ChaoCatto]

Oof²

[@Summer-jy1my]

He gets even worse when you consider he sent the same dreams/visions to your companions in the beginning. You just proved most susceptible

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

Yeah this is an underappreciated aspect. Because you get the option to go and convince all your party bros and broettes that "nah man, we should be shoving these tadpoles into our brains because the dream guardian - who's been helping us a lot so far - says it'll help," and once the Emperor reveals himself it's not just a betrayal of you, it makes you feel *guilty* for having convinced other party members to go along with it. Even though ALL of them other than Astarion were against it. I think it's Lae'zel who insists it's all a Mind Flayer deception from the beginning, but she can be persuaded to do this against her better judgement. I know I personally felt SUPER guilty that the Dream Guardian turned out to be a mind flayer and I had dismissed her claims at the start. Because dang. She was right about it from the very beginning!

[@nealenthenerd399]

@@MidlifeCrisisJoeif anyone in the party can recognize Mind Flayer shenanigans, it would be her

[@townieofthenorth]

Or it’s because you’re the leader of the group, not saying your wrong; but I don’t think it’s quite that black and white

[@ThatFoxJD]

​@@townieofthenorthyeah the Emperor wanted to speak to the manager 😂

[@sk8ergrrl1]

Both Astarion and the Emperor demonstrate red flags in the beginning (both concealing their true natures, Astarion trying to bite you in your sleep, Emperor encouraging you to consume tadpoles and not explain why, Astarion wants your protection, the Emperor sees you as a means to an end) but the shift is that Astarion comes clean unprompted. He isn’t forced to admit why he befriended/seduced Tav, he openly admits it and then keeps being honest afterwards and is open to your opinion and influence. The Emperor always seems to be forced into situations where he has to reveal the hidden truths. During the seduction scene with the Emperor, he was like “you now know everything there is to know” only to find out that he was Balduran and killed Ansur after that scene. I was just like “oh more secrets; what else are you hiding?” And then when he accuses you of still not trusting him when you want to free Orpheus, I just thought about how I literally had no reason to trust him after he showed again and again that he didn’t trust me.

[@PocketLeaves]

I do want to add another difference between The Emperor and Astarion is that Astarion will take no for an answer. The only time he seems to keep pushing is when he wants your support on his ascension, but that's more looking for support than trying to get you to do something you don't want to do until it comes time to make the decision to ascend or not. And even then, he doesn't try to strong arm you into supporting him. Sure, he'll say some not great things, but he never once tries to make you feel forced into it the way The Emperor will throw around the threat of force.

[@DungEnjoyerr]

​@@PocketLeaves Felt like Astarion wanted to be encouraged

[@kristinpothast]

All those "everything there is to know" secrets were pretty ridiculous. His favorite soup? His special cutlery set? It felt so shallow. And you're absolutely right about those later reveals, which were absolutely huge and shocking.

[@username172]

big BIG difference is astarion either runs off and dies or tries to actually change for you. reject the emperor and he joins the absolute

[@primrosett]

Yeah, he only really dropped the guardian ruse because he was caught unawares by Orpheus' guards and needed help. When that happened, he knew the only way to keep up the illusion of trust was to craft a narrative of himself as this sort of "reformed monster" who lived as morally as he could within the conditions of his form. He leaves out the truth of his relationship with Stelmane to keep up with this narrative. If you're romancing Astarion, there's almost an added layer of manipulation to that, as your character clearly has a predisposition for sympathy for "reformed monsters" if you fell in love with one. But Astarion's humanity isn't faked, he's honest about his crueler side AND his more empathetic side, which is a huge difference with The Emperor.

[@TheEngineerYTDS]

He may not be inherently evil, but he is ruthlessly pragmatic as most illithid are because at the end of the day, he crosses your boundaries to achieve his goals and doesn't have remorse for tricking you, you are a tool to him a means to an end. So he's not a villain, but he's definitely not a good person.

[@lieselstrick]

Did you read the books, diaries, papers etc. Which you could find in Gortash's Room/Hall? You could read there that the emperor was an instrument from the very first beginning. When the plan started, he was already under the control of the elderbrain. In case you want to read it yourself, I'll stop here. So I have to somehow disagree when it comes to the villain part.

[@mintkit1064]

He's definitely evil and definitely a villain. Still a fun character though!

[@101Mant]

​@@lieselstrickhe is initially under the brain's control but it releases him later as part of it's plan. If it isn't controlling him it can't be ordered to make him stop and it knows exactly what he will do which suits it's purpose. It's not clear exactly when he is released so when Gortash interviews him he might or might not be controlled.

[@supahgaming8249]

thats what im saying, like nobody is saying hes a saint but hes not some pure evil villain.

[@Cellybeans]

Agreed. His goal is to survive and he'll go to any means to meet that end. I can't fault someone for going to any length in self-preservation but I can still find their methods reprehensible. He's true neutral to a fault.

[@Spastry45]

The difference between the emporer and omelloum is that the emporer is a regular mindflayer, while melly is an illithid arcanist, whos free will is more of his own doing by his adeptness with with arcane magic, which is discouraged in illithid society. When your autonomy comes from another source, it makes sense whyd youd do everything you could to preserve it. Melly doesn't have that problem, since he can defend himself from that kind of influence, especially as his survival against the absolute is more assured to a degree

[@Zixor_]

In my latest play through I discovered that if your character has consumed many tadpoles, if you try to reject the astral tadpole The Emperor will mind control you to force it on you. It was a DC 30 wisdom save that I failed and due to honor mode couldn’t reset. It honestly felt like a huge violation that he forces his tadpole on me because he “knows I want it” due to my past behavior.

[@kamilgromek9982]

O fucking shit. You've blew my mind with this. So this is the real reason this fucker encourages you to use tadpoles. It turns out that he can mind controll you if you use sufficient number of them and by the moment you become Illithid all your problems are gone.

[@kademelien9363]

My check was only 21, but I did share my tadpoles with my companions

[@edmundgennings3025]

Is that him or the tadpoles?

[@libsoric6693]

That's not him forcing you, the tadpoles in your brain are doing what their function is, continuing your evolution. Your prior decisions have made it harder for YOU as a character to have the willpower to not evolve. Your tadpole has more control over you, that's not the Emperor's fault. (Not that any of this makes the Emperor less scummy or shady)

[@madamefluffy4788]

And that is why I refused to infect myself with more tadpoles - for that exact reason (the Emperor made it clear at the beginning he barely had control over the one the party was infected with. Infecting themselves with more just makes things that much riskier).

[@TheWither129]

I want to expand upon some aspects of illithid behavior. The Illithiad, a book entirely dedicated to mind flayer anatomy, needs, behavior, and society, is really illuminating. But first, this is an old book. Its from the AD&D days, so there may be some questions on how up to date it is. So let me point towards the Avatar of Bane. In AD&D, the Avatar of Bane is usually a person, possessed by Bane. They become charismatic and able to rally people to their side, as well as gaining black, greasy hair. Look at Gortash. Gortash isnt the avatar yet, but he *is* the chosen. He is charismatic and sweet talking, got the city to like him, and has greasy black hair. Though he’s not the avatar until he calls for Bane’s aid in combat, at which point he becomes a more powerful avatar for combat. And itt isnt Gortash who will speak to you when you cast speak with dead. Bane himself speaks through his corpse. So old lore is still largely canon. There are surely more examples of old elements of lore remaining, and the predecessors to BG3 are set in these older editions. Now, the illithiad details many things that are eerily reminiscent of some vibes the Emperor gives off. Some things you might question are actually kind of answered by the book. You wondered how genuine his grief with Stelmane was. The illithiad details how mind flayers view their thralls. They often have a favorite they pick out and have special feelings towards. If that thrall dies, they often take time to grieve, even if it delays progress toward their goals. They might try to find a new one to become the favorite. Lets look at BG3 again. At the start of the game, when the dream visitor pops up, everyone shares in this phenomenon, and shares their thoughts. Then they force “only the leader” to come see them in the prism. Then they begin confiding in you. Nobody else notes this. Its only you they confide in. Then it comes out theyre a mind flayer and then they reveal their old partner and stuff. Then they show grief at her death. Then he reveals she was nothing more than a puppet. She was the favorite thrall. Guess who the new one is? Next, what he did with his freedom. The knights of the shield. To someone whos never heard of them, this sounds cool. A secret group doing trade and keeping the city safe or whatever. But theyre not knights, and their name is nothing more than a facade. The knights of the shield are a cult of a demigod of greed and former archdevil. They control trade across the coast, from amn to waterdeep, and they are lawful evil by D&D categorization. Back to the illithiad, it notes how mind flayers often sneak into large groups of people, and find ways to gain authority over them, be it discreetly influencing them psychically, or by straight up enthralling someone in a leadership position and puppeteering them. So, the duke Belynne Stelmane, a duke of the gate and leader of the secret capitalism cult, is the perfect target. And he exploited the hell out of this for sure. Stelmane was of immense influence, and someone of her status being under the influence of a mind flayer is terrifying. Then guess what empy says hes off to do when the city is saved? Hes gonna rebuild the knights. The evil cult of greed. Yeah, real convenient he leaves out the “worshipping a former archdevil” part. Also, the stelmane thing is not at all him lying, this is canon and there are loads of pointers. First, books around his hideout allude to it. Theres one that notes her condition and tracks her getting worse, its some medical record of some kind. Theres another that details someone who came to check on her and thought they saw some ominous figure levitating behind her. Nail in the coffin, Descent into Avernus, the prequel module based around the events that lead to the tiefling refugees’ perils, notes Belynne Stelmane, a duke of Baldur’s Gate, suffered a stroke but the true affliction was in fact, a mind flayer attack. So theres no doubt he did it. This has been confirmed for five years, long before release. Another confirmed detail is that he’s the one who infected us and is the missing pilot of the nautiloid. Firstly, his armor is near identical. Second, a note from Gortash details a plan to steal the prism by sending the emperor with a team of thralls. Third, the artifact doesnt have a radius. This is discussed in the video, it has to be channeled. He could not possibly have been broken out into freedom, he had to be let free by the brain. The brain confirms this, and emperor backs it up and admits he was played. Also, shadowheart obtained the prism from the gith. Her cloister sent her alongside a team to get it, shes the only survivor. She got it. She had it until she was kidnapped by the mind flayers. It was sometime during the chase and right after the cinematic when we and laezel gain control and freedom that he got in the prism and sent its power out to all the to-be thralls most capable and got them to safety to form his team. I dont mark him infecting us against him, he wasnt in control. I DO mark him not telling us, because there’s always a lot of inconvenient truths he doesnt tell us unless its forced, and this is one thats never forced. Especially given that Gortash doesnt know the emperor is even alive. Im pretty sure he also dies before empy steps in to help if you try to dominate the brain with him. So, back to the illithiad, i think ive made a case for how close his behavior aligns with standard mind flayer behavior, but there’s one last thing i want to note. Going by largely canonical sources, the Emperor, is NOT, in fact, Balduran. Say what you will of what Balduran may have actually been like, whatever “never meet your heroes” stuff and the pretentious and shitty trials of the wyrmway, none of that actually matters to the Emperor. They are not the same. This sounds obviously wrong, but let me elaborate The illithiad states on ceremorphosis that the first state is the parasite attaching itself to the brain. Over the next hour, it devours the brain and attaches itself to the brain stem, replacing it. This is the end. Thats it. That aint you anymore, you are dead. Your soul is sent to the city of judgement and the mind flayer in waiting goes around doing thrall things. So everyone THINKS you have seven days to live, but in reality, this tadpole is in stasis. If it werent, youd be dead right away. The only way to stop ceremorphosis is to destroy it before the brain is completely gone, and the damage can then be healed with a powerful healing spell. Like how using the Heal spell restores memories to the dark urge. Balduran is dead. Like, dead dead. It would take a true resurrection and his soul being willing to bring him back, and you could do this with the emperor alive, as it would create a new body for him as his old one is completely destroyed, having been replaced with illithid flesh. The Emperor is not Balduran. The Emperor has partialism. Partialism is usually small, it causes an illithid to retain some mannerism of the host, like rapping fingers or a little tick of some kind. These are usually deemed impure and dont get some honors normal illithid do. But there is a horror story to illithid, and a glimpse of hope for their would-be victims. A rumor of the possibility of full partialism. An illithid that retains its host’s memory and personality. This is thought to be impossible. And yet, we have a normal mind flayer, with every memory and some glimpse of what it was like to be Balduran. The Emperor is a full-partialized illithid, using their memory to pretend to be human. Because their host was someone of exceptional power and a strong personality. But even still, the emperor is the tadpole that infected balduran. Not the man himself.

[@kingofgrim4761]

Beautiful comment thank you

[@MissKashira]

I'd say the one thing they changed for the game is that all of them maintain the knowledge and motivations of the person they are created from considering there was no concern that whoever changed wouldn't go through with the mission. After all, as a species it doesn't really matter what their personalities and desires are when they are usually controlled by an elder brain.

[@ygma1460]

Me, who murdered, lied, manipulated, bribed and stole my way through the game: Well, uh, I'm not really in place to judge someone for few misdirections and half-truths...

[@PocketLeaves]

You know what, that's so fair. Me on my evil Durge run

[@sarahnotabot636]

Yeah people are so hard on Empy when they detect thoughts, deceive, steal, sabotage, and leave a path of destruction in their wake throughout the game.

[@ArlauxWitchdog]

I think its stupid that when you dont choose his plan he goes "Fine! I am gonna join the thing I hate! hmph" like okay duuude sure buddy, max level fireball

[@ZephWraen]

It seems like a contradiction until you realize what he really values above all else is living. He's afraid Orpheus will kill him on sight (which to be fair, he probably would) and would rather give up his freedom and individuality if it means he lives. It's reflected earlier on when you confront Ansur and learn that Balduran would rather kill his best friend and lover and live on as a mind flayer than die as the man he was. He has no honor anymore, he just wants to continue existing.

[@ArlauxWitchdog]

@@ZephWraen If he valued living choosing to do that is by far the least good decision. Again. Potion of haste, max level fireball twin cast, fireball, fireball again.

[@genericcatgirl]

The Emperor watching as I cast create water and quickened spell chain lightning :0

[@bessieburnet9816]

I was shocked when I first got that scene. He's all like "Wuh?!? You don't trust me?!?!?" Like, dude, this has nothing to do with trusting you, I just wanna free Orpheus and save the Giths! Nothing to do with you.

[@Morrumo]

@@ZephWraen I never viewed as an issue of honour in the case of Ansur. Ansur was traitor plain and simple, he couldn't accept how the person he cared about changed and instead of severing that connection and moving on he felt the need to kill someone he once valued because of his own selfish desires, ironically a problem The Emperor himself has, is that he thinks he knows better than the person themselves. Which even if true its not some else's place to steal another person's autonomy.

[@midnight7786]

A foreshadowing (idk if it counts but it was something my friend and I discussed about) regarding the Emperor and that question, is back at the prologue you have the opinion to fight the Boss Devil with the OP weapon with a mind flayer who seems convincing to ally with. However, once you kill the Devil, the mind flayer turns on you immediately saying among the words of “your services are no longer acquired”

[@PocketLeaves]

OH! Every time I've tried to fight the boss devil for the sword, the mind flayer died in the process, so I had no idea about that interaction!

[@tjstarzz9231]

I've played through BG3 several times now and STILL read most all books I come across. As expected, Faerun isn't too familiar with ceremorphosis past the symptoms and aftermath. In most of these books, they state what little they know of mind flayers, that they eat human brains and will manipulate or lie or do anything to ensure their survival. At times I kinda wish some of those books allowed for a dialogue difference, if I'm not mistaken, as you can romance the squiddo in Act 3 AFTER you find his hideout, read the book on their anatomy, and recall the History check and pick friendly dialogue options when he appears to you shirtless lol

[@partymantis3421]

*required, not "acquired" but yes that does seem like a sign of things to come with the emperor

[@nina9565]

People also forget that a dying mindflayer was able to completely change your character's emotions on the spot, and don't consider the Emperor has the same abilities.

[@Macaronracaron.]

You forgot that he will outright refuse to help Minsc, the player has to convince him to do it. All because he tried to manipulate Minsc into joining by pretending to be someone important to him that died a long time ago, so in pettiness cuz Minsc attacked him (lol) he’s like nope I tried he can’t be reasoned with. Like no shit you giant a hole. I tried to role play a character that was more drawn to him but in the end he just pissed me off too much.

[@paperdreamer2043]

Exactly. He'd already failed to manipulate Minsc with the face of someone he truly valued. Minsc knew Dynaheir so well he saw right through the clumsy manipulation.

[@nina9565]

That's honestly what sealed the deal for me on my first playthrough, then I learned everything else that he can do in different playthroughs. He is a very interesting, well written, nuanced character, but there's no denying he is evil through and through.

[@ianthompson1907]

One of the things I like most about the Emperor's design is that if you roleplay as a trusting gullible character and don't push back on him you get all the way to the end with the feeling that he was a pretty swell guy. Like if you think to yourself "Does my character have enough wisdom to see the red flag I see as a player" and play accordingly nothing really comes out.

[@Nirax3]

I thought this was going to be my first run but it took a turn in the third act. My original Tav's main attributes were openness, curiosity and empathy. Their relationship with the emperor was the most complex and tragic story that happened in my playthrough because they WANTED to trust him so bad, especially since the dialogue after he revealed his true form and talked about fearing prejudice etc, that really pushed their buttons. I was so sure that this character wouldn't go to the house of hope, even after I found suspicious books about Stelmane... and then I discovered Ansur and Tav empathized with him deeply. The betrayal my character felt at this point was not reflected in the game's dialogue options lmao I felt like Tav needed therapy to process the realization that their trust was misplaced. And then they even had to fight him in the end, oh my! It was a very interesting first RP experience.

[@minim3494]

See I'm trying it that way but there are some things...like he talks about orphieus being trapped like 'isn't it beautiful' and Im pretty sure anyone would be like 'umm...no? You psychopath' by that point.

[@Nirax3]

@@minim3494 Does he say that no matter what or is it in a dialogue tree dependent on certain choices? I'm pretty sure he didn't say something like that to me? Also didn't learn about Stelmane like you do when you're mean to him

[@Cellybeans]

@@Nirax3 I'm confused, why did your character feel betrayed by finding out about Ansur? Emperor only acted in self-defense when Ansur came after him to kill him in his sleep. Ansur confirms this in his dialogue as well.

[@Nirax3]

@@Cellybeans emotionally, it was the letter on Ansur's body which made it clear they were very close and Ansur cared deeply for Balduran, while Balduran as the Emperor was pretty much gone, confirming to (probably) the person closest to him that he had no feelings anymore. He tries to make Tav believe otherwise, though. It wasn't the biggest red flag but it made my character finally see the Emperor's manipulation and lies in a way that they hadn't before so it became the last straw that made them give up on trying to see him as good natured.

[@atothetaco]

Shout out to all my Durges that make the Dream Guardian Alfira

[@RinCrypt8959]

I actually made the guardian the previous game's tav like they failed the campaign and had to go into another plane but simular

[@Matthew-Fair]

@@RinCrypt8959 That's genius actually. The dream guardian that I have for my Tav was due to a relationship that character had in a tabletop game. When said character lost his lover, I recreated the dream guardian in a way that would resemble her. Only for it to be the Emperor. So I went through staying due to him not wanting to oppose their memory. But now on my evil version of said character, once the Emperor reveals themselves as a liar he's going to insta target them for death

[@kittydaddy2023]

@@RinCrypt8959 same. The price of failure.

[@cheeto.burrito]

Oh, that's heartbreaking, thanks

[@mercedeswalt6621]

Damn, that’s…kinda…I’m not sure how to feel about that.

[@chronoxtreme2427]

I find it SO interesting that if you trigger his romance scene, then you're like "Absolutely not, you freak!", he doesn't react with the hurt that you'd normally expect from a character. If that was me, I'd feel insulted, maybe talk about our common goals, even yell at Tav for refusing to be open minded. But instead he shows you what he did to Stelmane, and that honestly terrified me far more than practically anything else in the game. He called her a dear friend, his DEAREST friend, and yet she was nothing more than a meatsack puppet to further his goals. And then he tells you that you're lucky he's "learned" a better method. BUT if you cross him, he's happy to mind control you into submission! I will say though, the monster fuckers won with the romance scene. That was wild.

[@madamefluffy4788]

There are actually Emperor fans who say the vision he showed of Stelmane being his thrall was all a lie (their reasoning - if the player wants to see him as a liar/manipulator; he'd lie about being that way just to intimidate the player). Why on Earth would he do that when he's supposedly trying to earn the players trust? Showing a memory like that is going to be incredibly counter productive to that goal.

[@nathanpfirman625]

Mind flayers don't really think the same. And when you calmly deny it and say you need to get to work and stay focused. He agrees with you and says we should be focusing on stopping the absolute and your worm problem.

[@dopaminedrought395]

@@madamefluffy4788 that's a level of delulu I hadn't heard yet until this comment

[@madamefluffy4788]

@@dopaminedrought395It's honestly unreal how some of the Emperor fans try to paint him as something he isn't just to justify their love for the character, accusing non Emperor fans of hating him simply because he's a mind flayer and not because his actions speak much louder than their words. There's even a book found later in the game that states just that - never trust the words and Illithid speaks; pay attention to their actions, instead - as those show their real intent. And, based on those simple instructions, the Emperor should never be trusted - as he's always lying/manipulating, even when he says he has nothing else to hide - while Omeluum should be trusted, as he didn't hide anything from the party from the moment they met.

[@AmonTheWitch]

​@@madamefluffy4788 his actual actions are: -never betraying you whatsoever -helping you stop the absolute at all costs -only leaving if you risk his life several of your companions put a knife on your throat while you sleep, while you're helpless, the emperor only ever threatens you when you insult or threaten him first, but he's the evil manipulator because he doesn't actually feel emotions and thinks logically 💀

[@kikow3792]

He has quite a few red flags from the beginning. I wasn't surprised how manipulative he was later. And what his role in the Grand Design was. Quite fitting. He got played, too.

[@taneelbrightblade6622]

I love the mechanic of having you make your guardian, It’s brilliant on many levels

[@likeamanagersbossper]

When you politly refuse to sleep with him the narrator also says that you "wish hed tried harder" so I think what the narrator says in that part is deffinetly him manipulating your feelings

[@MogamiKyoko13]

Right?! I always likened it to the half-dead mindflayer you encounter right after the nautiloid crashes. "...if only you didn't feel...compassion. Compassion!" Whenever the narrator pipes up about how you're feeling around mindflayers, I feel like it's a good indication that you're being manipulated.

[@kingofgrim4761]

@@MogamiKyoko13the hottest scene actually meaning something in a context is great

[@smudge3123]

LITERALLY LOL every time i get that line, i'm like no tf i don't

[@JManRox13]

Based on Omeluum's behavior and how different it is from the Emperor's as well as the Emperor's relationship with Ansur and Duke Stelmane I'm wondering about whether he is the way he is because Balduran was that way. I'm wondering whether Balduran was really as great as everyone thinks he was. It seems totally possible to me that Balduran was as manipulative and selfish in life as a human as he is as a mind flayer. It could be that that's why he loved being illithid so much. The way we are as an independent mind flayer further backs this up I think, since unless I've misinterpreted it seems like the player character mostly remains themselves. You get the mind flayer urges but can resist them. I wonder if Balduran was just manipulating Ansur the same way he manipulates us and discards him when it's inconvenient. Being a mind flayer just gave him the excuse to act the way he always had always wanted to, maybe.

[@Gotabonetopick]

This is a good theory.

[@Crazykid-ob6mp]

There's an interesting theory that mind flayers actually develop a personality based off of whose brains they eat. The Emperor states that he fed off of criminals minds, which would explain why he's so prone to deception and a ruthless survivor. Omeluum states that he originally had an arrangement with a lich, and that they would split the brains/souls of anyone they fed on. A bit of a stretch, but the idea is that since liches are often targeted by adventuring parties, holy warriors, etc., Omeluum had a diet of hero brains, which eventually molded him to be more selfless and humane.

[@fatterperdurabo42069]

Balduran probably wouldn't have fooled Ansur for so long like that, tho.

[@nina9565]

I think he changed a lot after some time as a mindflayer, Karlach definitely did. He probably took a lot longer to lose himself since he lived for hundreds of years before turning which means he had more memories as a humanoid and I believe becoming more mindflayer has a lot to do with having so many memories of other people that you have more of "not you" than "you". But I also think he wasn't the mighty hero people believe he is. He became an adventurer for riches, not to save people, and he got those riches by having a dragon as his ally, but he is the one geting all the focus on the stories, which means he just took all the credit. One of his tests also shows the story of a thief who started stealing apples for children and ended stealing a relic, which makes me question his sense of morality to believe (or teach) that stealing food for others will lead to someone doing worse crimes later.

[@neopets666]

I always approach him like - you can say whatever you want but I’m doing me angel. My character hooked up with him too. But when it was time to get the hammer - girly I’m getting the hammer. Thanks for the protection tho.

[@PocketLeaves]

asdfsd that's so fair. I've done that on some play throughs as well just to kiss the pretty dream guardians I've made. And the jump scare look of horror on my TAV/Durge's face when you wake up and he's back in squid form is really funny.

[@neopets666]

@@PocketLeaves im always just like - you’re getting too pushy and at the end of the day i never once felt loyalty to him or really trusted him. I do love being dragged by Orpheus 4 the hook up tho. 🙃

[@EileenGallia]

It was the party memory wipe post Astral Hook-up that had me realize... if he can wipe everyone's memories of that, than he could make me think anything. And that's when my 1st character stopped trusting him

[@khoavo510]

"But when it was time to get the hammer - girly I’m getting the hammer. Thanks for the protection tho." In all honesty, that felt like we're betraying someone who, whether manipulative or not, has genuinely protected us. There are several moments that proved that, without Emperor, we'd be just like any Absolute cultists meaning that we got as far as we did was really due to Emperor's intervention. He certainly didn't do it out of the kindness of his heart, sure, and was most definitely protecting us because it furthers his own goals of being free but we'd be no better than him if we cast him aside as soon as we got what we wanted. Basically, at that point, we're EXACTLY like him. There really should've been a way to convince him to stay because that way we'd have a complete ending where no one had to make any sacrifices. I mean, Tav\Durge has been convincing people left right and center throughout the game so it's weird that they don't try to convince Emperor at the most pivotal moment.

[@ryanstewart2289]

​@@khoavo510 Except that Tav doesn't take the hammer to secure their own freedom, they ostensibly take it to free an entire species currently being held in slavery. Everything, and I mean everything, the Emperor does is completely selfish in motivation. It's also important to note that Tav never willingly agrees to work with the Emperor, there's always an element of coercion from him. Yes, without the protection of the Emperor you would be a thrall to the Brain, that doesn't mean that you owe him any loyalty.

[@EnbyNomad]

My first go around I randomized my Guardian until they were scrungly, and decided I wouldn't take tadpoles bc I was sure someone was gonna pop up like "haha I made you do everything, puppetered you so perfectly" and naturally I'm rather defiant to any form of authority. So imagine how I felt when the dream Guardian was like "nooo plz you need these tadpoles so gosh darn bad or you'll die 😢". After I blitzed an avatar of a god no diff no tadpoles. I had already been p sure he was a mindflayer bc of the insistence on tadpoles but I wouldn't have cared if he was open to my very constant suspicions of him. And the only time he makes a move on you is by the time you're already dating someone likely, and he clearly knows it. Not to mention the orpheus situation and the final mindflayer requirement for the crown is OPTIONAL and yet he's like "oh this group that has never failed to take the baddies down just refused to let an entire race suffer and now I know they'll fail me". Hell even the raphael moment. Felt like he was tryna go through my phone. Tldr, lying manipulative domineering tentacle man pressures you to making life altering decisions for his benefit and won't even trust you with any privacy without a fight. He'll turn on you when you're no longer convenient and I'm sure I've dated this person irl.

[@CidGuerreiro1234]

Emperor is all our crazy exes merged into a single being. Yikes.

[@davidwagner3710]

He makes a move on you if you do his quest in the elfsong tavern. Doesn't matter if you are in a relationship.

[@Bearasites]

Pretty sure the first time you see him, is in the opening cinematic when the Nautiloid is attacked by dragons. If I remember correctly he’s the one who’s piloting the ship. My 3rd playthrough I noticed the cinematic Mindflayer has the neck piece he does. Which he’s the only Mindflayer you see with this neck piece. Which would explain why in the cutscene of you plummeting to the beach. He catches you.

[@paperdreamer2043]

I married 2 of them. Now convinced I'm an arsehole magnet.

[@anna-flora999]

To be fair, Orpheus might save the githyanki from vlaakith, but if he truly wants to embrace his mother's teachings, he'd just force every single other species into slavery. Mother Gith's plan is basically just the Grand Design again. So for the emperor in that moment, the difference is between allowing the ilithid grand design to unfold where he'd be a thrall but alive, or allow the Gith Grand Design to unfold, where he'd definitely be dead

[@Noobgamer0325]

At some point during my playthrough the emperor said something along the lines of "you saw through me" in an impressed tone, and all i could think was "this jerk is playing to my ego now!"

[@mortalitydoesstuff8965]

It's incredible to me that the emperor was as stupid as he was. He fucked up in basically every possible way and if you decide you're sick of his shit he just goes off and decides to join the enemy. Really makes me respect the fuck out of Omeluum because clearly it's possible to be a squid that isn't a total piece of shit

[@kyleswimming]

Personally, I don't see him as "bad" in the sense like gortash or Orin etc. His entire purpose is self preservation. He's selfish, lonely, and manipulative without a doubt and definitely not a good guy. But he's not necessarily evil just wants to live at all costs. We are a tool to ensure his own survival until he believes we will get him killed, then he chooses what he believes will keep him alive. He's kinda textbook narcissistic and lies by omission

[@lycarik6447]

I have to intervene here. Narcistic people search for attention, control and want people to admire him. Emperor really just dont give a fuck about anyone. Well, he did for ansur even as Illithid, but ansur tried to kill him for being Illithid, i understand why he doenst want other emotional bonds and just stays for himself.

[@nickneal3955]

As someone wise once said: Emperor Catfish just wants to put his tadpoles in your brain.

[@thatperson278]

I fr just wanted that mind blown achievement

[@PocketLeaves]

Real. Me too

[@PlanetaryPluto]

They can keep it frfr

[@Dragoth_scalie]

Well... the achievement was the bonus for me, the scene was the real prize~

[@KCCOmug]

​@@PocketLeaves Raphael wants to go back to not having that vision in his head. "I have seen ALL the Torments of the Hells in LURID detail. None compares to the image you just conjured!"

[@RFA_The-DuDe]

I couldn't care less about achievements. I mean, what are you trying to prove to whom ?...

[@lorisceleste1860]

He literally manipulated a woman into submission, he’s a mindflayer, he feeds on people, any humanoid and sentient being available. Mind flayers to survive have to consume everything you are: your memories, your character, everything you are is lost forever for them to feel “sated.” The Emperor uses others as tools of survival, and I cannot stress this enough: he talks of Stelmane as if she had any saying in her relationship with him, he talks about how he cared for her when in reality he made her his thrall, making her suffer unimaginable pain for days or weeks even. He’s a manipulator, a narcissist and a selfish villain. And if not a villain, at least some sort of potential adversary to the cause of good. He even tells that you should thank him he didn’t make us his thralls and instead let us “free” to choose and act. I will always free Orpheus and lead the Githyanki revolution for freedom. No questions about it.

[@Parrotcat]

Mr Squidfuck will straight up say be grateful I'm not making you my pawn and people still go "but he's misunderstood🥺❤" Will always be loyal to Orpheus. And this means a lot given that Githyanki are the space fascists of DnD, Orpheus may be better than Vlaakith but by how much really?💀

[@lorisceleste1860]

@@Parrotcat I say any revolution starts with the overthrown of the status quo and if the status quo is based on a lie that could actually threaten the entire universe I say let’s go with the eons old prince of the comet.

[@Starcrafter23]

Emperor probably did care about Stelmane, but more like a pet than an equal. Mindflayers are known to grieve when they loose thralls that they were fond of.

[@lorisceleste1860]

@@Starcrafter23 oh, didn't know that

[@loganredding1621]

@@Starcrafter23so basically, he was like this Omni-Man quote: “I do love your mother. But she's more like a... a pet to me”

[@Wromeo13]

Honestly, I actually really respected the Emperor for how well crafted his plan was. I respected him enough that I even sided with him on my good paladin durge that was romancing Lae'zel, and convinced her to stay with me. She thanked the Emperor after the Brain was dead. Now she and I are travelling the sword coast, purging creches together.

[@PocketLeaves]

Ooh, I've been afraid to side with The Emperor because I didn't know how Lae'zel would take it!

[@ettaetta439]

​@@PocketLeavesI'm pretty sure you have to pass a really high dice roll though. Like 30.

[@Wromeo13]

​@@ettaetta439 It was a 20 Wisdom(for some reason?) Check. Had to use like 3 inspiration on it for my big thickheaded paladin.

[@ettaetta439]

@@Wromeo13 Maybe it depends on the story and whether you're romancing her. I've heard it's a 30 dice check but I'm not 100 on it.

[@Firefly11O3]

@@ettaetta439if she’s romanced, there is no dice roll

[@GD0nly]

I think that these are some very interesting takes, but that you interpreted a couple of things differetnly from how I did: 1. At about 37:00 you asked why The Emperor wouldn't "work with us if he wanted his freedom and to do the right thing?" Simply put, the "right thing" in his mind is whatever guarantees his survival first and his individuality second, because as long as he lives, he has time to gain his freedom. He escaped the Elder Brain's domination once, he can do it again. 2. "He's already a mind flayer and likes being one, so no one's gonna need to make the sacrifice." All true, but he doesn't think that you have his best interests in mind. He believes that he needs to remain in the prism for his own safety, and that Orpheus will kill him if freed, not just because he's a mind flayer, but because he's kept Orpheus captive and effectively enslaved for however long. Not to mention that Orpheus is the son of Gith, who freed the Gith'Yanki from Illithid enslavement, so he's got every reason to want to kill every mind flayer they come across. As such, someone else becoming a mind flayer and taking the risk of being dominated, while he stays nice and cosy with his other greatest threat under lock and key makes total sense for him and his unwillingness to entertain letting Orpheus out does track, even if in hindsight, they might have worked together and as we see in the "Free Orpheus" ending, Orpheus comes to understand that there is at least 1 good mind flayer.

[@JotapeRR]

Never trust a squid face. If you read Belynne Stelmane's entry in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, you'll see that she's being controlled by a mind flayer. And judging by what the copper dragon told you, the Emperor had betrayed everyone up until that point in the game.

[@LoneWolfHBS]

(ENDING SPOILERS) One thing I feel isn't talked about enough is one of the endings you can get when you ally with the Emperor over freeing Orpheus. If you chose to dominate the Netherbrain *alongside him* instead of dominating it yourself, provided you pass the Persuasion check, he will be all "I'm so proud of you. Let's do it!" only to immediately betray you by using the Netherbrain to dominate you and your party. The ending would play out more or less the same as a Tav!Absolute ending, but with the Emperor in charge instead. This more or less convinced me that all of his talk of survival is only true until he's in a position of power and that his main end goal, which he never disclosed to you, is to dominate the Netherbrain. His constant coaxing, flattering and many manipulative antics to get you on his side is probably just because he needed you and to get you to lower your guard into thinking that the two of you can rule together, letting him backstab you when you least expect it after he got what he wanted. kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6u6dH2ilteCfKM

[@Ent229]

That is interesting. What happens when the Emperor succeeds in their plan to complete your ceremorphosis but also gets into this position where they could dominate the Netherbrain? In any case their constant coaxing for you to perish to ceremorphosis, and then coaxing you to eat Orpheus is a bit at odds with your proposal of their end goal being to personally dominate the Netherbrain. I still think their primary plan was to have you perish to ceremorphosis and ally with the resulting illithid to destroy the Netherbrain. I think that outcome you discuss is an opportunity they accepted but did not have as a goal.

[@LoneWolfHBS]

@@Ent229 That is true. The Emperor may have simply taken advantage of an opportunity instead of domination being the end goal. Nonetheless, turning against someone who's stayed loyal to him until the end reflects poorly on him.

[@anna-flora999]

"provided you pass the persuasion check" So, provided you talk him into betraying you, he betrays you. He's definitely a manipulative asshole, but I feel like that one's on you

[@destinygalearies7382]

Well I'm pretty sure that at some point (I think after you get the second Netherstone) you get the Emperor in your mind going "good work" or something and when you say "I'm going to destroy the brain" he's like "I wouldn't be so sure" I was like ?????? The fuck you mean NOT SURE about it?? Like clearly implying he thinks killing the brain would be a waste

[@MissKashira]

@@anna-flora999 It's not even a betrayal. You talked it into taking over and it took over. It's doing exactly what you asked it to do. If it takes a 20 persuasion check then the Emperor isn't keen on doing it, but for you it's willing to risk its life in a war you convinced it to get involved in. But it's a 'betrayal' because the person rolling doesn't realize the Emperor taking over means everyone with a tadpole in their head loses their free will. That's how their society works. All members are subject to the will of the elder brain. So in a way, you're just joining the family. ♥

[@Graysett]

He's an extremely high functioning sociopath (yes I know it has a different name now). That's it. He has his goals, he won't compromise on them, he'll ally with you if you align with him and he'll strongarm/destroy you if you're against him. People just aren't used to seeing sociopaths in media that aren't also absolutely maniacal and completely unhinged so they have trouble pinning him down. The TL:DR to dealing with them is understanding that they're hyper rational AND what their goals/rules actually are, then making it very clear to them where you stand in relation to those things (or lying your butt off if you're against them). Will they flip on you (seemingly) out of nowhere? Maybe. But they will never ACCIDENTALLY hurt you. In retrospect my best friend in highschool was a almost certainly a sociopath and we got along great. He once outright asked me why I was never worried to be around him while he was doing stupid knife tricks or making deadpan threats and I just looked at him like he was an idiot and said "because you're smart enough to never hurt me unless I give you a good reason to, too careful to do it by accident, and obviously I know that, so I'm not gonna give you a reason to unless you do something REALLY stupid" and it was the only time I've ever seen him speechless. Lasted about 5 seconds then he laughed and said "You're right" and we moved on. And you know what, he was a fantastic group partner, always did his end of the work, never missed deadlines, was always easy to work with. Can't say that about normal people, that's for damn sure, lol. So back to the Emperor, my previous experience dealing with his type let me clock him real early. He's a fantastic character, and the best depiction of this kind of person I've seen in a game so far. IMO the single weird out of character questionable writing moment I've seen from him is when I SPOILERS BELOW - freed Orpheus and he went "well now we have no chance against the Elder Brain, I won't even try to work with Orpheus, screw my freedom I'm going back to being a slave because I'd rather live". Even then that might not really be OOC, I might've just thought he prioritized freedom over life when really it was always survival over everything else.

[@Graysett]

Also, nice Jolyne.

[@Weretaz]

orpheus wont help him in any universe, so he can either die or fall under absolutes control

[@liesdamnlies3372]

He managed to break from the brain’s control before; maybe he’s conceited enough to think he can do it again.

[@fireblast133]

@@liesdamnlies3372 in truth he can't. There's a good possibility he only got free because the brain let him get free. The brain wanted the netherstones out of control of the chosen three, because out of their hands it was certain noone was strong enough to use them against it. It took three powerful beings each wielding one to control it. And it knew how the Emperor would act. A want for survival, and seeing Orpheus's power, freedom on the horizon.

[@liesdamnlies3372]

@@fireblast133 Hence "conceited enough."

[@EmileTherese]

On my first playthrough I went along with most of what he wanted, except doing the creche. I was rping a good guy paladin, using the tadpoles and transforming so no one else had to risk it (unless they wanted to on their own). At the reveal I looked at it like "ok, I guess people's soul energy gets turned into mind energy when they become mindflayers. As long as he has his mortal memories and reason I can work with that." Getting more context through more playthroughs, he's...not evil to me, more like he just is what he is. Pure logic with a desire for autonomy.

[@KodyackCasual]

The Emperor is manipulative, and frankly, a liar. He is the illithid who infects the player in the opening cutscene (no other Ilithid has his outfit, and the one in the cutscne does, ergo...), and completely lies about Stelemane and his role in her life. Wyll comments on this at one point. Quick note on the Gith fight by the way: If you "kill" the emperor and all the gith, you get a scene where he begs you to spare him. If you don't, you get a game over, so he isn't... *lying*.... then, at least. Basically, dude is crazy evil. Pragmatic and anti-grand design... (mostly), but still evil. His immediate willingness to turn on you at the smallest inconvenience and literally make himself into a mind-slave also makes him an idiot. If not actually just a sleeper agent. I actually liked the character until act 3. Specifically the previous mention of turning himself into a mind-slave for no reason other than "how dare you not do exactly as I say!". He was clearly evil and manipulative up till that point, but he wasn't stupid. Then he went full stupid. I still would have prefered the EA dream visitor twist of it being the tadpole trying to trick you into giving in, but this was fine too. Until the aforementioned issues i have.

[@mintkit1064]

I agree with the "went full stupid". I get from "his pov" his odds of survival are better with the brain but it still feels just dumb to me. I like to think he knew Orpheus would see through his crap specifically 😂 He's not a cool squid like Omeleuum. I do mourn all the what ifs we didn't get with Daisy, the ring of mind shielding, Raphael being actually viable for tadpole removal, etc. So so curious about all of the scrapped content and story changes .

[@TheGreatDanish]

Is it really stupid? You only get the "fuck this, id rather be a slave" outcome when you're about to *release fucking orpheus* the mf who literally cannot be stopped by Mind Flayer bullshittery. He *will die* within moments of you unlocking Orpheus' chains, and running away wont help because if he does, he just get mind slaved anyway. So he has two choices. Stay and die, or leave and become a slave. He chose slavery because mind flayers have no afterlife (as far as anyone know). Death is final. Slavery is still life, even a shitty one. It is the only logical choice.

[@Starcrafter23]

"He is the illithid who infects the player in the opening cutscene" That's just untrue. The clothes don't matter, it's a CG cutscene, Lae'Zel also wears completely different armor in the same cutscene. The Ilithid that infected you is in the goblin camp And freeing Orhpeus isn't a "slightest inconvenience", Orpheus would kill him given the chance, he might've waited until the brain was dealt with, but he wouldn't let Emperor live. I do wish Larian gave us a crazy high check to convince Emperor to stay so we could see for ourselves how that would work out, seems like they wanted a "either or" scenario and narrative suffered because of that.

[@KodyackCasual]

I appreciate the confidence in what you are saying, but no. The one in the goblin camp is not the one who infected you. There is some conflicting dialogue (in that, it conflicts with other narrator dialogue) that implies it briefly, but there is a specific line that directly says otherwise that it is NOT the one who infected you BECAUSE it has a different outfit. The only Mind flayer that has that outfit is the emperor, and were it not the emperor who infected you, Larian could very easily have given him a different outfit. An implication of "your tadpole recognizes this mindflayer" is much weaker than the line "This is not the mind flayer who infected you, it's garb is much more plain", to paraphrase. and, in the moment, it IS the slightest inconvenience. If Orpheus did turn on us, we could kill him and take his power anyway. There's more to say on this, but even if it was a major problem and/or would have the same end result, him burning his bridges to become a mind-slave instantly is still dumb. @@Starcrafter23

[@lokiserpentem8534]

My only thing with duke stelmane is we dont know for sure whether or not they actually had a bond before the mind control or not. So for all we know she could have turned on him and he did it to protect himself and still do good. But thats just speculation on my part

[@Ondakatt]

I interpreted his pressure to use tadpoles in part as an unconscious desire to make you more like him so he feels better about himself. If he’s brought you into it with him, it must not be so bad, right? Maybe it’s even good! His stories about his past plus what the dragon had to say suggests he’s faced a lot of rejection, disgust , and hate for bringing something he didn’t want to be. He is also a victim. And, sometimes victims want to make others victims to feel less bad. He clearly has a temper, but mostly keeps it contained. I think he lost that temper or felt great shame and self hatred when Stelmane rejected him like Ansur did. And, he lashed out. Because, he IS a mobster even if he doesn’t want to be. He’s a monster and a victim of monsters.

[@becauseimafan]

Okay I *know* it's just a typo in that second to last sentence, but omg imagine a _mobster mindflayer!!_ 😂😂 He's wearing a fedora and a suit! Holding a cigar in his face-tentacles and a tommy-gun in his hands! Throwing around threats that you're gonna sleep with the fishes if ya don't do what 'e says, see 😂😂

[@Ondakatt]

@@becauseimafan I got this tadpole and me and da boys are gonna make sure you eat it, see.

[@MissKashira]

I think this would be a fair reading if the Emperor was Balduran, but its not. Its the thing that ate Balduran. It doesn't view itself as a disgusting monster. It views itself as superior in every way and thinks the characters are just too dumb to realize its trying to make them superior beings too. "Better to be the hunter, than the pray." -type thinking.

[@taigatoco]

All people who romanced Solas in DAI wept at the Emperor reveal.

[@Lolieif]

No, they’re too busy romancing Astarion.

[@taigatoco]

@@Lolieif mmmm I would say they're romancing either him or Gale, but the majority of people I know went Morrigan/Anders/Solas route rather than Zevran/Fenris/Solas.

[@JohanCrunchy]

I feel called out

[@MythicMoonArt]

Nah, I played the Early Access so I already knew something was fishy about the Guardian lol. I ended up not romancing anyone in BG3, but the game did seem to think I liked Halsin the most. For reference I usually went Zevran, Fenris, Solas. Because elf boys. But Astarion got adopted by my bf and I as our son so I refuse to romance him lol.

[@Sn00zen]

Leliana is by far my favorite DA romance and ofc I stuck myself to Shadowheart. It’s the religious trauma for me apparently

[@godessnerd]

It’s funny,I see people so often excuse the emperor treatment of Stelmane for so many reasons but it’s always the people who have experienced different forms of abuse who call out “no hey this some very gross behavior and isn’t actually romantic.” Mindflayer morality IS a strange thing but the fact that being like ommeleum can exist I think are a great argument to the emperor is certainly lacking in many departments

[@tgclericoll572]

a bit of a caviat around the 8 minute mark is that Gale is all for using the tadpole. There is not persuation check needed you just have to speak with him and he's willing to use them as with Astarion. If your looking for another character that is similar to Shadowheart its Wyll. Wyll expresses in your conversation with him that he's tempted to use its power, which makes sense as he's been willing to accept unsavory power to protect the lives of innocents before. As a player however I will never make Shart, Wyll, Karlach, or Lae'zel use illithid powers because that's just wrong.

[@PocketLeaves]

Ah, that's fair!!! I felt bad about pushing any of the companions about the tadpole, so most of my interpretation is based on what they say at first. Gale is cautiously optimistic about it I guess you could say!

[@IliumGaming]

For me any nuance went out the window when he revealed the Stelmane stuff. His response to being called out on doing some really heinous stuff is basically "arent you glad I didnt do it to you?" Which is just... so so evil I cant justify believing he is anything but delusional, if not an outright villain.

[@davepumphernickel9568]

Lol to be fair Astarion sacrificed like 7000 vampires just to be “big vampire” and see the sun lol, which I know they also have done some pretty terrible things but they were once human. Then he wants to repair the city so he can disappear some people in underground caves he had built along with a mudder (replace a d with an r) Pitt for his growing criminal organization before wanting to maybe move onto taking over the entire world. Overall this game has extremely aight characters. So I’m sure the mind flayer Could have done it, dude just wants to chill. Meanwhile I would say he is kinda a big baby, and does manipulate us a lot, but too be fair if you thought you were the smartest guy in the room, you’d probably toss a blanket over a babies head to play peekaboo too for a little fun. Truth was there, now it’s not.

[@rubbercable]

The Emperor is a player. Min-maxing, manipulating, equivocating, ratioalizing. It's what the typical player would do.

[@jimmyrustles358]

You might be on to something

[@Roze_Lunashadow]

He straight tells you he's manipulating you if you keep being antagonist towards him.

[@CK-ys3tu]

I believe the Emperor is true neutral. His first priority is survival, his second is the exercise of power. When he was partially in charge, controlling Stelmane, he wasn't using his power to commit mass murder, infect everyone with tadpoles, or create the best possible city that he could. An an Illithid, he is tame for his kind. Manipulation is *how* they communicate. Ommelumn is a bizarre and fascinating exception. He doesn't really care if you save the grove or kill everyone, ultimately he decided that you are his best chance to destroying the elder brain. Notice, if you ally yourself with him, he actually does destroy the Elder Brain. After that he leaves you and your group unmolested. His tactics are unsavory, but considering what he is, I don't think he is that bad.

[@rodneylane952]

I was cautious about the Emperor ever since my dream guardian encouraged me to start eating more tadpoles, but I still worked with him. Due to my less-than positive feelings about any gith not named Lae'zel, I sided with the Emperor and didn't free Orpheus (had to convince Lae'zel that this was for the best lol) but it wasn't until after I finally joined some BG3 groups did I realize just how bad he was

[@PocketLeaves]

That's fair! In your defense, Lae'zel and Kithrak Voss are the only gith we meet in the game that seem to be possible to ally with. And we're told that Orpheus wouldn't want to work with us (and it's true he's less than pleased to ally with us if we free him)

[@Aequilix]

I’m so glad I found this video. You got great BG3 analysis. Our blorbo brain worms are doing clown to clown communication. Jokes aside I think I have a perspective on the emperor that I don’t often see people talk about. There’s plenty of books and hidden material in the game that give us insight into Illithids. One of them that stood out the most to me just flat out talks about how Illithids are creatures of illusion, trickery, deception, manipulation, and LOGIC. And The Emperor brings this up all the time and to try not to judge him for it. Another big one is that a book mentions the only time somebody should ever consider working with an Illithid is if you have goals that align. And even then you have to tread carefully because it might not end how you think. Those are the big keys to analyzing the emperor for me. I don’t think he’s a villain. But he definitely does not have our best interest in mind. We’re a variable to his plan. While he’s trying to act like he’s on our side and cares about us, really he cares about putting a stop to the Elder Brain and has done all the MATHS in his head and thinks this is one of the only ways to do it. Since he’s a creature of logic he does not account for the clutch factor and miracle powers we have as protagonists. We got the plot armor and he doesn’t know or doesn’t want to risk it. Which is fitting for the folly of a character like him. He coulda put more trust in us as a “Variable” to his plan and been less manipulative. But he dare not risk it. Even after we kill Raphael? Lmao. What a dummy. I haven’t looked deep into Omuleem (hope that’s how you spell it) but he’s kinda just vibing, doing his own thing, etc. His goals relate to the Underdark and The Society. There’s no NEED for him to manipulate the PC’s in anyway. He has nothing to gain. However, I’m curious if he would act in a similar way were he the one in the emperors place? Little things like that. He’s a good squid but he also occasionally has lines that remind me of”I should not treat him like a bro and assert human traits onto him.” When you first meet him he’s like “Sorry I couldn’t do anything. There’s some interference with the tadpole. If you transform I’ll gladly give you another analysis.” Like after pleading with him to deal with our tadpoles that just comes across as overly cold and logical, lol. But he’s just acting true to his nature as an Illithid in that moment. TL;DR I think Emperor isn’t a villain, but he’s too alien for us to trust and he’s proven to be extremely manipulative and callous in his life as an Illithid. He is to be kept at arms length because his plans do not account for what’s “Best” for us. But what’s best to execute his scheme.

[@SunniestAutumn]

The thing about the Emperor is that he (I'm using he/him since the Emperor is technically it/its, but that's more confusing) is essentially a metaphor for power gaming. He isn't there to enjoy the characters or to have immerse himself in the world and the story, he's there to roll some d20s and get as many bonuses on his skill checks as possible. He lies to you when it's optimal for him to do so, he never deals full truths and he expects you to act predictably, getting confrontational when you don't. He is determined to get to the end of the story and if you don't help him achieve that goal, you serve no purpose to him. He doesn't hold actual values as he often implies to do, even the "romance" scene is just a charisma skill check for him. He doesn't hold genuine affection for you, he just wants to see the outcome. What really gives it away is his relationship with Gortash. For him, Gortash is someone who enslaved him. However, when the opportunity to get to the end of the story without having to fight the guy pops up, he immediately urges you to consider it. He suggests that you team up with the guy who literally enslaved him, because it means he'll get through the content faster and easier. He asks you to trust him at every point, but the moment you suggest releasing Orpheus he reciprocates 0% of the trust and joins what he considers the "winning side." If you do team up with him and get to the end, you can ask him about taking control of the Netherbrain and he admits to having considered it, but ultimately thought it'd be too difficult. He rejects the idea because it'd be too inconvenient, not because he thinks enslaving and killing the population of the entire Sword Coast is morally wrong. He is someone who has played Dungeons and Dragons for 25 years and doesn't care about any of the story or the set dressing anymore. He just wants to get through the campaign as easily as possible.

[@Cellybeans]

I love that interpretation hahaha

[@Princess_Salami]

I just wanna say, THANK YOU SO MUCH for this video. I've seen a lot of people saying "The Emperor's manipulation isn't that bad, everyone manipulates other people", and I was starting to doubt if my views on him were wrong. But you video really put everything I was feeling about the situation into words, and I finally have something to point people to when they say "He isn't that bad". Also, I really hate how in order for him to see you as truly "on his side", you need to have the same view as him towards "the end justifies the means" aka survival is more important than anything else, be it your loss of free will, the risk in consuming tadpoles (like, risk to you soul based on Withers saying Mind Flayers don't have souls), and the possible damning of an entire race (consuming Orpheus who could oppose Vaakith and free the Githyanki from her tyranny). He doesn't care about your comfort, doesn't care about your relationship(s), doesn't care about any of your companions and THEIR goals. He only cares about not dying. And if you're playing you Tav/Durge/Origin character with a heroic journey in mind, you might see your own death as the price you're willing to pay in order for people to keep their free will and humanity (or gnomishness... or elvenity.... heck)

[@Natar05]

I find it very interesting that people reiterate that mind flayers don’t have emotions and then we can see him supposedly showing emotion. I realized that he understands what emotions look like and how to use it to control others. The other mind flayer I feel doesn’t show emotions and approaches the player as calm collected and approaches things logically.

[@paultapping9510]

if you rescue Omeeleum from the Iron Throne he tells you he has "feelings of... warmth, towards you, too", so I dunno, I do think they can feel emotion, but it's like they abstract it away.

[@Natar05]

@@paultapping9510 there is a point where someone asks if mindflayers have souls, and we are told no, and I have a recollection that some characters tell the player that they are emotionless. I’ll have to look up where that’s said and I’ll tag you when I find it.

[@Natar05]

@@paultapping9510 my only thought on your comment is that possibly when under the control of the nether brain they have no need to understand or experience emotions that when the occasional gets free they have no idea what these new sensations are like

[@paultapping9510]

@@Natar05 I like that. I just transformed last night, so I very much hope Illithids can re-learn to feel outside the control of an elder brain 😅

[@sangun123]

i believe jergal will in fact claim the opposite if you've turned into a mind flayer claiming part of you is sitll. inthere@@Natar05

[@zorlix130]

Good analysis! People will argue about his character till the end of time because he lies to us so much, both directly and by omission, that it's practically impossible to tell when he's telling the truth. It's impossible to say what's going through his head and what he's thinking, so we can't say for certain just how bad he was. But for me personally... yeah, he made his own bed. He made it impossible for me to trust him because he lied so many times. I'd understand if he was worried that I wouldn't accept an illithid, but like... .he saw how I interacted with Omeluum. He knew I can be reasonable. But he still hid his identity. He also knew just what is underneath Moonrise but didn't care to mention it. That would have been nice to know. He was also very vague about how he was feeding. He did say he only fed on criminals, but like... in his own flashback that guy looked like a petty thief. All this makes me wonder... if you side with him in the end and he survives, how much of a problem is going to be now? How many more is he going to manipulate, mind rape or gods now what? As a sidenote, I'm currently playing Shadowheart origin, and I made the Guardian look like Nocturne. It adds an interesting twist to the whole shitshow. He's actively choosing to make himself look like the one person Shadowheart trusted in her past. Even if she can't remember Nocturne at the moment, it might still make it more likely for her to let her guard down. It makes it extra creepy and manipulative.

[@MissChambersxo]

My favourite quote about the Emperor is what Lae’Zel says at the ending when you say you should speak to the Emperor and hear what he has to say before freeing Orpheus. ‘The fact that you even entertain this ghaik shows you have learned nothing from our time together’. Because she’s right. The Emperor was manipulating you all along. The game really, really should have had an option in the ending where you can confront the Emperor about him probably being the one to infect you to begin with. There’s a note in a vault that basically confirms it. Because what likely happened was that Shadowheart got the Prism from the Gith, the Emperor’s nautiloid found her with the Prism and she got kidnapped by the Emperor and infected, along with all the other companions and the player character, since the Emperor saw use for them. But there, the Emperor felt his free will return due to Orpheus’ power so went inside the Prism. But yeah, he’s a manipulative narcissistic sociopath and only reveals the full truth when he absolutely has to. Whatever Balduran was is dead.

[@liesdamnlies3372]

Which vault with which note?

[@Dungeoneer420]

I forget where it is but there is a note stating Gortash sent the Emperor on the mission to retrieve the Astral prism​@liesdamnlies3372

[@liesdamnlies3372]

@@Dungeoneer420 That one is at the morphic pool, before the point of no retrurn. I don't see it as confirmation of the Emperor tadpoling anyone though.

[@Gantali9305]

@@liesdamnlies3372 He is in the opening cinematic. The emperor is quite distinctive in appearance.

[@MissChambersxo]

@@liesdamnlies3372one of the ones in the high security vaults

[@ScreenSpidah]

Very early on, Withers gives you what I'd consider a throwaway line in most cases- that stuck with me anyways. Come the end of the game, it reveals itself to actually be a recurring motif, and that is that Mind Flayers don't retain their souls post-transformation, therefore they are not equivalent in value to any one mortal. This is why the Emperor is totally unscathed by sex, a typically passionate encounter (and sold as such prior). Bro literally doesn't have a soul, and is ever-enticed by satiating his base desires with zero care for who he has to use to get them. No soul, no moral basis, only a conniving husk.

[@dragonbornhk]

Didn't want to kill the Emperor but Laezel is more important to me. And what happens with the Gith is a lot more important than one mindflayer.

[@anna-flora999]

In case you bring them Orpheus back, what happens to them is probably them enacting their own grand design.

[@diamondedge83]

Mindflayers are inherently evil in DnD. They are not people who were transformed into Mindflayers, they are the tadpole who completely consume their host and gain their memories. Those memories make them think they have feelings, but those fade pretty quickly. Mindflayers don't have feelings, the Emperor is pretending to have emotions in order to help manipulate TAV. The Emperor thinks he is under his own control but his entire plan was made by the absolute and he's been playing the part unwittingly. Omeluum is the oddball as he actually is capable of selfless acts which shouldn't be a thing for a Mindflayer. There are a lot of people in real life who have some form of Psychopathy and most of us don't know it because they are good at not showing it. The Emperor is a Psychopath straight out of a movie: Evil and super manipulative and gaslighting; whereas Omeluum is like the Psychopath next door who's just trying to live his life like everyone else, pretending to have emotions because it makes things easier for their friends and family.

[@neonrelmsproductions4224]

my redeemed Durge gave him a second chance, but when it came to Orpheus he wouldn't budge so he didn't make it far after that lol.

[@Noxthedunmer]

I always make my dream guardian look like my past character so theres still a little bit of manipulation left even after i know the full story.

[@Alkaseltzerz]

The emperor is like the annoying kid in the group project that absolutely no one wants to work with but he knows all the answers so you have to suck it up

[@systemadic]

I was always confused about the timeline of The Emperor cause he said he was the first to find the Astral Prism at Gortash’s behest and when he found it he went into it. So connecting the dots with him being the abductor and when he came into contact with shadowheart made complete sense. Loved this video!

[@crazyscotsman9327]

I have only completed the game once and had him take the power from Orpheus but I felt super bad about that. Next time I won’t do that and find another way.

[@Ianhawaii10]

Hammertime

[@liesdamnlies3372]

Did you not get the hammer? You gotta get the hammer. Or do a taksie-backsies on what you do to get the hammer. Best quest in the game.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

@@liesdamnlies3372 Oh I did but I didn't use it. I decided to honor my deal with The Emperor.

[@SoralaxPlays]

One of the most telling moments of dialogue with the Emperor actually comes from your first interaction with the Dream Guardian, and immediately set me against trusting them. When you first meet them, the Dream Guardian says, "There is great potential within you. It comes from the tadpole." This IMMEDIATELY set me on edge, as the Emperor plays his hand so readily in this moment - he lets you know right away that he does not care about your humanity, but rather the illithid power you carry. It's such a blink-and-you-miss-it moment, but after that single line, I completely lost any ability to trust the Emperor.

[@kozumi5889]

There's so much i did miss in story, grate material. Personally when i was making a guardian, i didn't go with attractive appearance. I made some who will look knowledgeable and experienced, someone who will protect and guide. And i think it make whole manipulation even more twisted.

[@beargirlgwen]

i always find emperor discussion so interesting, since depending on your views he can have all sorts of alignments and it’s always interesting to hear how others view the squid man that said i think he simply wanted to live no matter the cost and i personally can’t paint him as evil for that, even if it occasionally conflicted with my goals in-game if you choose it, he can be an antagonist, but i don’t think he can ever be a villain

[@CK-ys3tu]

Exactly this. Given the chance he does actually go through with destroying the elder brain. I think he is True Neutral in alignment. He doesn't really care if you try to save everyone or become Bhaals chosen so long as the brain is destroyed.

[@mintkit1064]

He will do anything for himself, even sacrificing an untold number of lives. He does indeed have machinations and a desire for power. He is evil >.>

[@101Mant]

It is a nice example of how dumb alignment is as if people can't agree on it it shows they are basically meaningless. In the Emporer's case the stuff he did when free last time is what decided it for me. He didn't just want to survive he wanted power and was prepared to hurt people to get it. He talks about his friend the Duke then you can find out what he really did to her.

[@Grey-po3lz]

​@@mintkit1064if he wanted power he would've betrayed you and taken over the brain... He didn't.... He wants to survive and be free and if you paint anyone as evil for wanting that... Well then a lot of people in the real world and some oppressed groups are also evil then...

[@sangun123]

right?? its like bro my tav will do anything to survive and stay free, how can i judge him?

[@scruffopone3989]

On one hand, The Emperor is absolutely a self-serving manipulative weirdo who is basically treating you as a pawn in his grand chess game against the Illithid Empire and the Githyanki Empire. On the other, we as the player are extremely aloof and absolutely go out of our way to basically be distracted by every other thing that comes to our attention. The moment the player gets to Baldur's Gate, they are immediately distracted by: -Every companion's personal bullshit going on -Every random stranger with a problem -The Devil making you a self-serving offer that absolutely will not be good for anyone ultimately -The expansionist xenophobic Githyanki dissidents coming in and suggesting "Hey ditch your guy and join us" -The distinct possibility that you are also evil -The fact that these powers are actually pretty helpful and you basically refuse to eat any of these tadpoles that give you superpowers -You poking around in his personal beefs from forgotten lifetimes ago He definitely deserves a bit of grace seeing as you are the wild card weirdo that's risking their life a million times over and not getting closer to saving the day, especially when you're walking right up to the gate itself stop it it's strongest there it'll pop your brain! He's definitely Lawful Neutral, he is a huge bastard, would prefer the status quo, manipulates you every step of the way to get what he wants. But what he wants is to protect the status quo, and to get his own independence from an incredible evil.

[@destinygalearies7382]

I mean I'm pretty sure the character side questing can be justified ingame as them trying to gather their power and find allies, since a lot of said side quests result in you having new allies in the fight against the Absolute (it's a whole quest prompted by you being told "we need more than just some adventurers to beat the nether brain). Honestly I think every single companion quest has the potential to result in allies for the final fight, or if not a lot of them give access to really good weapons that would also help your fight. Just bc the plot is urgent doesn't mean that it's wise to immediately rush up to the brain at half power and with few/no allies bc you didn't prepare

[@ScruffMcMoose]

He split for the enemy the 'moment' I disobeyed him. Yeah, fuck that guy.

[@OakandIV]

I like the Emperor and his story, but I still kinda wish they'd kept the Dream Visitor as your tadpole and the mechanic that using your Ilithid powers too much would leave you dreaming "down down down by the river" while the tadpole ate your brain and turned into an adult mindflayer. As the story is now, you only have role play and cosmetic reasons to avoid using ilithid powers and eating tadpoles. So long as you don't choose to transform, you never have to. I also don't know how I feel about how muddy the mindflayer lore has gotten. Some in game and out of game sources point to the adult mindflayer being the tadpole. Any memories or personality traits of the host it retains are just things it absorbed while eating the host's brain. But when Durge or Tave become a Mindflayer, we don't get a sense that our character died and was replaced; it plays out like a transformation. The only sign of what our character has lost comes at the reunion party, where Mindflayer Durge or Tav keeps wanting to eat our friend's brains. Heck, for Durge, that's not even that much of a change.

[@BladeZero238]

Could say that consciousness and/or soul inheritance is an extremely rare phenomenon among Illithids, not well known or studied because colonies or elder brains consider it a dangerous anomaly to be destroyed immediately upon discovery.

[@danielled8665]

I just hate what he did to Stelamane before he met us. He wiped her mind and puppeted her like a marionette. "Oh but itll be different *this time*" yeah buddy only because you cant control us.

[@nina9565]

Gale is as willing to use the tadpole power as Astarion, just less vocal. Shadowheart is definitely opposed the it and Wyll starts off opposed but quickly starts being open minded to it.

[@ParmesanTries]

i feel like for a lot of players, we know the signs of manipulation and know whats going on, which is definitely something larian planned for but im not sure if they knew just how many people would not trust the emperor to the end

[@mintkit1064]

I think they did expect it. I mean, Withers literally tells us he's a soulless monster, and basically every companion doesn't trust him even a little.

[@Sangheillioz]

Something you kind of glossed over with the choice he presents you with to either trust him or kill him as the dream guardian, was the fact that it wasn't a real choice at all, just a manipulation. You did a good job analyzing how he uses it to turn it around on you if you do try to kill him, but it's also important to note that even giving you that illusion of choice is a tactic.

[@ambientbenji]

Excellent video. Lots to agree with, you put a lot of my thoughts into words really well, so thank you for that! I think that a big takeaway as well, in my playthrough, he never revealed he controlled Duke Stelmane, because i shut him down very quickly into his seduction (sorry monster lovers, no hate, just not for me) so it really shows that every secret is revealed unwillingly. There is no time in the game where he reveals anything of his own accord. If you didn’t follow Wylls quest, he’d never reveal he was Balduran, he wouldn’t have revealed he was illithid if he didn’t need our help against the gith, etc… His intentions may align with ours in a loose and broad sense, but he is not your ally. I also think a reason people end up siding with him and feeling more trust in the early game, is, as a gamer, big booming voice coming in and saying “That isn’t working, try this instead” is tutorial character 101. I think the gameplay incentivizes you to trust him, and the story pushes you to distrust him, so, as someone playing the game, you do feel more comfortable accepting his half truths and deceptions (The developers would never give me an all seeing helper who isn’t actually on my side, right? … RIGHT?) I also like the occasional contrasting you did with Astarion, who can be downright despicable in some ways, but his character gets shaped by our interactions, as opposed to always being the same. great video!

[@TheGreatPastafarian]

Oh the Emperor is as I see it Neutral Evil, or Neutral at best, he tadpoles us in the cinematic and proceeds to manipulate us into being his thrall. However, given the history of the Githyanki people, who are also Neutral Evil, and also Neutral at best, even with Orpheus being the son of Gith. I think that's done deliberately, that neither choice is obviously good, but up to the player's own preferences.

[@taigatoco]

If you use 'speak with the dead' on the ilithid in the goblin camp (withot the cuscene with hobgoblin dude) it says that this specific dude infected you, not the Emperor. Thought it was him at first too, but... Well. Turns out he was only a driver.

[@davidjaureguijr.6171]

The intro cinematic shows a random mindflayer doubg rhe tadpole stuff, Emperor is already in the Astral prism at this point.

[@TheGreatPastafarian]

@@davidjaureguijr.6171 The emperor escapes into the prism during the crash, he's the only mindflayer we see in game with the same armor as the one in the cinematic, and that mindflayer just happens to be missing, not even a corpse

[@davidjaureguijr.6171]

@TheGreatPastafarian How? He's still in the prism by the time we wake up, and he needs to be in it because going too far away would open everyone up to being dominated by the elder brain

[@TheGreatPastafarian]

@@davidjaureguijr.6171 And so would he, if he's not in the prism, he too is enthralled, however, it also puts him in the position of controlling orpheus, and going by the elder brain itself, it let the emperor off his leash just enough to enter the prism

[@ILoveEvadingTax]

The thing about the Emperor is that while he is a tentacled psionic octopus, his methods of and motives for manipulation are all too human and there is nothing about his thinking that is truly outside of our own reason. While he may not be agreed with, he is at least intelligible and in that sense Durge is far more alien a character than the Emperor, even as you're playing him he's not really "your" character.

[@50lid5nak3]

Despite his ruthless methods, treatment of Stelmane and manipulation, I was willing to spare him. Until Orpheus. I could not save the universe and simultaneously condemn the githyanki to tyranny. My paladin would not abide it. At that point I realized Balduran was going to die because he had abandoned too much of his humanity to see beyond his calculations and logic, and could not accept I could simply change Orpheus' mind by talking. I don't hold any ill will against him, but the irony of his death served as a cautionary tale: be careful what you give up when you change, and never lose perspective.

[@MissKashira]

The Emperor isn't Balduran. The Emperor is the tadpole that ate Balduran. And its refusal to free Orpheus is due to Orpheus having both the ability and motivation to wipe out its species before conquering the multiverse. That's what the Gith want. So you nobly chose the guy who wants to wipe out a species then enslave everyone over the squid monster that wants to run a gang and eat the occasional criminal's brain. 🤷🏾‍♀

[@50lid5nak3]

@@MissKashira If Orpheus was really pushing for conquest, I doubt he'd be extending an olive branch to the Githzerai, which is what happens in one of the possible endings. That alliance wouldn't last if his ambition was to rule all of creation. Besides, I'm willing to contend that the current belief structure of the Githyanki is being propped up by Vlaakith, who is about to be overthrown. With her gone, there's going to be a lot of chaos for the Gith. Orpheus is going to have a lot more on his plate to contend with, let alone entertain dominating existence. EDIT: In addition to the above, it seems you are concerned with long term consequences, which is fair. But consider this: the universe is worse off with Orpheus dead. His powers are what allowed Vlaakith to hold the Mindflayer threat at bay. And while there are indeed innocent, free willed Illithid like Omeluum, I can't imagine a large number of them existing out there. The rest are essentially the psychic army of the Elder Brains, and their aggression has to be countered. Think of them like the undead. We have clerics and paladins for a reason. If you took away all of the clerics and paladins (ala Orpheus dead), the undead problem would be a lot worse. And no, I simply can't trust the Emperor to have Orpheus' powers to counter the Illithid Grand Design in the future. Balduran (or the tadpole that ate him) is out for itself, which isn't a bad thing, but the Illithids need to be stopped here and elsewhere. Whatever you may say about Orpheus, he does care about his people.

[@risendawn9036]

As soon as he told me “your a puppet and you’ll do exactly what I tell you to.” That dude was dead for me

[@Evelaraevia]

"if it wasn't the emperor it would have been more fun to play through" should have been omeluum

[@BMJgunner]

Me - "Bro, we can just let out Orpheus just to make sure, see this githyanki with me is okay with me being illithid" The Emperor- "NO, i will now side with the Elderbrain, and wont even give you a chance"

[@ryanstewart2289]

I mean, he spends the whole game telling you lies and half-truths with the explicit goal of manipulating you. That's not the behavior of a good person.

[@mfran268]

The Emperor literally tells you you are his puppet… he's DEFINITELY bad. Plus, he doesn't have a soul - just the memories of Balduran.

[@Louves192]

Damn love your t-shirt! 💕 Emperor just gives me 'abusive boyfriend' vibes and I can't unsee it. The manipulation, emotional abuse, the trickle truth, deception about his identity and cat-fishing, all with the goal to make you more like him (ilithid). Which again is something abusive partners often do. Strip you of your own identity so they can shape a new one. He was even worse in early access when the dream sequences were very 'suggestive'. Just yikes. I wanted to like him because I like monsters and such, but I can't. Meanwhile the actual nice mindflayer Omeluum just wants to go on adventures with his husband and I love him and will to the whole iron throne quest just to save him.

[@trashcanandsocanyou]

I've played 400 hours of this game and I still don't understand how to get to the information that proves that the Emperor controlled Stelmane

[@PocketLeaves]

You get that version of the cutscene by being confrontational with him in act 3 instead of working with him and being kind.

[@BleachBasket108]

I still don't know how I feel about the Balduran reveal - it just feels so random? Like what is it supposed to signify or suggest on a narrative or literary level? It's just too out of left field for me to wrap my head around

[@sirpendergast1575]

I suspect the reasoning was two fold 1.) Haha big reveal very cool And 2.) To give a bit more credit, I think it was to show to the player what becoming an illithid truly does to a person, even to a hero as legendary as Balduran

[@s.colins2050]

A large part of it was also that he was one of the main through lines that actually exists in the games. Balduran as an npc was built up a pretty substantial amount before all this, so they were trying to find an end to his story which was a big ol' question mark. Also that the game wasn't really connected to the plots of the previous installments outside of the durge and orin, and a couple returning PCs.

[@BleachBasket108]

@@s.colins2050 never meet your heroes I guess lol. I only have very passing knowledge on the first two games so I'm not one to talk - but it still feels like a very big random jump in the plot for the reveal especially for new comers such as myself (which statically is very high with the ridiculous success of BG3)

[@windyfrost3797]

24:00 The mind flayer in the intro cinematic does not have the same head or cloth as the Emperor, and even if he did (excluding at least the Dark Urge), he was already under the orders of the Absolute. In the goblin camp, you have two lines of dialogue that contradict each other depending on whether you killed the boss before speaking with the mind flayer corpse: _ Narrator: *There's no doubt - this ghaik is responsible for your parasite. And it's waiting for your questions.* _ Narrator: *This mind flayer's build is smaller, its garb plainer - a fearsome creature even in death, but not the one that tormented you.* *Yet it, too, roamed the nautiloid. It would have seen you, known you...* And… there's a D&D game card from 2022 "Illithid Harvester" : "your mind belongs to the Emperor now", do what you want of this 31:00 Not sex but you got an additional the line at the beginning if you interact a bit too long with the dying mind flayer on the beach: Narrator: *Warm, wet tentacles wrap themselves around your head, and for the first time in your life...* *... you're perfectly happy.* 33:29 You could expect to build a close complicity with the Emp and develop a special mind bond with him if you're already half-illithid. However, you get nothing, you have even fewer dialogue lines since he doesn't need to convince you to do what he wants. Yes, the Emperor wants to survive, and then achieve freedom. However, too many people choose to forget that he was ruling the city from the shadows. Considering his letters at the epilogue, the more comfort he gets, the more power he will try to accrue! Dude is trying to transform Faerûn into North Korea by the end of my run.

[@Nikanoru]

Might be a hot take, but larian doesn't actually write some of their characters. Some of them are just archetypes that kinda write themselves. Astarion is an anne rice vampire. Lae'zel is a klingon, etc. The emperor is an emotionally abusive boyfriend in a WE movie. He's only good to you if you do what he wants, if not, he bullies you. I remember at one point the dude was worried I would deviate from the plan and he just plainly told me I was nothing without him lol. I remember thinking "i'm gonna break this guy's legs as soon as I get him out of that lego brick" Having a bias against people like that is NOT a bad thing, it's the only way you can prevent them from manipulating you.

[@destinygalearies7382]

Honestly after discussing this with some people my interpretation/headcanon of the Emperor's sudden heel-face turn is that once Orpheus was freed, he didn't have the protection from the Absolute and thus got pulled back to its side. But also he left before you even freed Orpheus so...? I feel that could've been an easy patch to that plot hole/weird character switch, if only the Emperor had used that as an argument to the player. Not just "Orpheus won't help you" but "if you free him, he definitely won't protect me who enslaved him and I'll just be enslaved again." Would make a really good character moment where a trusting Tav would feel empathy or a distrusting one could go "lol well you enslaved someone else so this is what you deserve." The ending was really rushed and weirdly implemented especially if you're trying to go for the "no one transforms" ending

[@zacharybosley1935]

Dude's about his own self-preservation. To The Emperor, no principle is more sacred than preserving his own freedom, however, he will oblige some morality should it not hinder him unnecessarily. As someone who's played too many D&D Characters, I respect the hustle. He lies to you as an Illithid, because you just had your brain tadpoled, and admitting himself to be a Mind Flayer before you even meet The Society of Brilliance, and are introduced to the idea of a "good" Mind Flayer. As he said himself, Illusion is the language of Illithids, and even after lying compulsively through the entire length of the game, should you trust him to consume Orpheus, Homie just bounces after the Absolute is dealt with.

[@miguelcondadoolivar5149]

I'm sure Silmane would disagree if she hadn't been brainwashed by the Emperor. That squid is a soulless monster who thinks you should be thankful he didn't dominate your mind.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@miguelcondadoolivar5149 Stelmane was a duke, a powerful figure in The Gate's political system who's disappearance would have put The Emperor's life in danger. He could have killed her and ran, but that would've been inelegant.

[@101Mant]

​@@zacharybosley1935what he did to her was evil. After all being selfish is a large part of where evil comes from. The more you find out about him the worse you see he is. The fact he didn't do stuff for fun like some evil characters doesn't make it better.

[@zacharybosley1935]

@@101Mant was what he did to the party evil?

[@sangun123]

thats a fascinating point because tbh thats exactly what my tavs journey is, retain my individuality and free will at all costs, idk if lots of people try to be honorable but my tav is only loyal to the 3 companions i run with lol im lying and backstabbing everyone else if it benefits my people

[@Italian_Isaac_Clarke]

I don't remember if I left a comment here, but I am going to say what I figured out about the Emperor without regards for spoilers, since the video itself is for people who already played multiple times: To make it short, he at first seems like a force for good, that he does anything he can to save at least his city, but no, after that the player can see that he does it for himself first of all. That, di-per-sè is not bad, but the bad part comes when you come to realize that he is not just a selfish asshole, no, he is a mindflayer whom actually got his mind converted. He may keep some attachments to his previous life as Balduran, but as the game showed he would sooner burn the world rather than having something hinder his plans. Rushed ending where he joins the brain aside, I am convinced by all the other endings that he is looking for someone more or less on par with him, as a mindflayer race, but he is looking for someone to work in the field while he works in the shadows. This convinced me that with enough time he would have started a mind flayer colony of his own, because he is not a selfish asshole, he is a mindflayer whose power will slowly raise.

[@figuures6098]

My main thing is keeping in mind that Emperor isn’t “Balduran, who got tadpoled and is now a mind flayer”, Emperor is specifically “the tadpole who now wears Baldurans memories and personality”, as needed to further its goals. It’s emotions aren’t real, they’re a tool. It’s empathy isn’t real, it’s a tactic. There’s an interaction as you start to be able to tease the possibility of romance with him, if you deny ihim, you have an internal dialogue along the lines of “man, it’s kind of disappointing how cold and disinterested he is immediately as he realizes the romance play won’t work on me”. Because, he doesn’t actually want romance, he’s using the idea of romantic interest to string you along if it’s something we would value. It gives him leverage.

[@DellikkilleD]

omelum proves pretty clearly that isnt really true

[@OrioshQaaaa]

On my first playthrough I was on the fence about trusting this guy. He was for sure dodgy but his action did make sense somewhat. When you go to wake up Ansur, Emperor says something like: "Pff, there is no dragon here, just some rumors". Then it was revealed Emperor killed Ansur and I was like: "Yep, not trusting this guy anymore. Secrets upon secrets covered with lies."

[@N1mdok]

well, according to quantum relations, if i stab a squid and in the end they reveal that this was all a ruse to take advantage of my human side (flaws maybe), is it really wrong to stab the squid?

[@squidletonthethird2923]

its funny for people who always made their guardians like super attractive but i always just made mine as a mirror of that current character. i thought from the beginning the guardian could be some hidden power we had the whole time, welp it turned out to be a squid. youd think given my name id be chill with that, but not the emperor making all my squids look bad smh

[@PocketLeaves]

I do think it'd be funny to make them a mirror of your character, or a twin of sorts. At least you got Omelluum for good squid rep!

[@Gotabonetopick]

The emperor, imo, doesn't get the mind flayer excuse for being an evil asshole, since Omeluum is nice and lawful neutral, whose major motivation is helping the underdark become a better place.

[@girldinnerenchilada]

emperor joining the absolute is actually a tantrum lol

[@Starcrafter23]

I'm not done with the video yet, but your perspective of the narrative seems flawed to me, You are looking at how the story unfolds from the perspective of the player and I don't think that's right. For example: "Emperor pushes you to use tadpoles which is bad", as a player, sure, you can just reload the game in case you die, so who cares if the game is a bit harder? But if you put yourself into the shoes of you character, then tadpoles, while risky, can vastly increase your chance of survival and Emperor knows that. Emperor tries to save the world and himself, obviously he wants you to be as strong as possible, gimping yourself while the fate of the whole world rests on your shoulders isn't the wisest idea to say the least. Also, slighting Emperor for guilt tripping you for trusting Vlaakith, a genocidal lich queen is pretty silly to me As for the Raphael blocking Emperor from reading your thoughts, you omitted the option that the game gives you, to tell Emperor that what happened is none of his deal, and if you remind you of how he always goes on about trust and should fuck off, he will agree to not pry further. And the going to the House Of Hope thing is once again perfectly reasonable, you are on the cusp of saving the world and choose to go fight a devil that will most likely kill you and condemn the whole world to thralldom. The swap up at the end of the game also makes sense to me, Emperor can and will help you defeat the brain, yet you chose to free Orpheus that will kill Emperor either immediately or after the brain has been dealt with, he broke out of the brain's control before, so he chooses to make a gamble. Emperor is a manipulative asshole, but he isn't malevolent towards you.

[@caurd]

Short answerd: Yes Long answerd: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

[@LOONAOT12__z]

you should totally make an analysis vid on wyll!! ^_^

[@PocketLeaves]

I am in the middle of scripting a Wyll video!!!!

[@settratheimperishable7800]

On my first play through I thought that the Guardian was some kind of being taking part in an extra-plainer war to keep the Absolute at bay and that the prism was this weapon we were going to use to kill a God. Then I found out it was just some guy holding some other guy that the Githyanki wanted back which I found to be the biggest bait and switch. Here I am thinking I’m gonna be taking part in this war and then I just get backhanded