The Tragedy of Orin - A Baldur's Gate 3 Analysis

We love Orin the Red in this household. What can I say, she slays.
Clips:
• Orin All Cutscenes
• the dark urge finds ou...
• Meeting Sarevok Anchev...

[@ascapedgoat8462]

Ngl, the second I heard Lae’zel say that she ran away in the sewers, I was as instantly like “You’re not Lae’zel.”

[@PocketLeaves]

REAL! Lae'zel would never back down

[@fellowtraveler2251]

I hate how youre always taken for a fool. You never even get an insight check to know whether or not its Orin, despite the kidnapped companion behaving absolutely nothing like their character.

[@channel45853]

@@fellowtraveler2251 might be caused because act 3 had to get out a bit faster than act 2 and especially 1

[@csashta]

In my 1st playthrough, she threatened to kill Yenna at camp because she was suspectful etc. and it was pretty on point. You had the possibility to say "Another normal evening at camp, I see." and honestly I felt that 😂

[@marcduhamel-guitar1985]

Orin never had a childhood, and her murders seem to take a quality in which she incorporates play in her own twisted way. Just a thought!

[@Kasiarzynka]

She definitely reminds me of Jinx from Arcane in some ways and that'd be one of them.

[@emperortime4380]

@@Kasiarzynka You know that’s a parallel I never considered, but now I see it. She’s evil Jinx

[@jeremygardner5987]

She’s a regular Michael Jackson

[@theawickward2255]

Her shortsword's description pretty much confirms this.

[@grimgingrin830]

Orin is such an important character for redemption durge and makes their journey so interesting like this person who gave you brain damage, nearly killing you, is the catalyst for you to be able to learn to be your own person and show the middle finger to a god! I imagined my durge _thanking_ a confused dying Orin for everything she did for them cause in a twisted way my durge would not have found their family without Orin

[@meliannhawke3318]

Yes, this exactly! She is a horrible murderer, but she stopped us (the Dark Urge) and gave us a new life. The whole time in my (redemption) DU playthrough, I knew I had to stop her in turn, but I was endlessly grateful. I had done far worse and nevertheless gotten this incredible gift of a new life full of true friendship and love, _completely_ undeserving. In a sense, tragically, Orin would have deserved redemption more than DU, but she didn't even get that and had to die in despair... whereas DU is saved, comforted and given absolution by a god! From Orin's point of view, it's so incredibly unjust.

[@artificerprime4154]

16:30 Orin can actually show up at camp as the companion she's pretending to be. But you have to rest at camp right after Gortash tells you about the imposter in your camp, and a lot of people tend to go to the sewers instead. If Orin is pretending to be Lae'zel in the camp scene, she threatens to kill Yenna, and will go through with it if you don't convince her not to.

[@PocketLeaves]

Ooh! That's good to know! I'll make a point to try and find her that way next play through!

[@artificerprime4154]

@@PocketLeaves Also there's no guarantee that the first post-Gortash long rest will trigger the camp scene, so it might take multiple long rests to get it.

[@corvigae]

@@artificerprime4154 Yeah, on my second playthrough I fucked around to too long without going into the sewers until she eventually got bored I guess and came to camp, lol. Fun to imagine her just sitting there in her little disguise waiting by the door for you, ocassionally checking the time like "What's taking them so long??"

[@marcduhamel-guitar1985]

When Halsin was holding dead Scratch at camp, but he turned out to actually be Orin during my Durge playthrough...

[@partiallyhealedsunburn1881]

i actually went to the sewers, talked to nine fingers, and then rested at camp and still got the orin/laezel cutscene. this is my third playthrough as well so i’m not really sure what the benchmarks are to getting it, because i feel like i haven’t done anything different except not get a room at the inn yet. i say that because im assuming the SPOILER………… halsin and scratch scene is another one you can get after G tells you about O in your camp

[@George_M_]

Many cult predators began as cult victims. Orin is no exception.

[@saltyspikebomit8850]

I love Orin, she is the weird flavor of female characters who are actually cringe failures, she's annoying and not that smart and I love her for that. I think the main thing about Orin is the fact she sucks at being a bhaalist, in a similar way that Shadowheart sucks at being a sharan, she cares too much, she puts too much of herself into it, and at the end of the day the objective of Bhaal is "kill everyone" doesn't matter who, when or where. So her art n crafts view of murder its similar to SH having a pet rat and openly praising Shar, it's none consequential, some might even say good. But to the cult is a transgression, something that's distracting you from the true purpose of your god. The thing about Orin that makes me love her, it's that in her failure she saved the world, either she took out the DU and doomed the plan that otherwise would have killed most of the world (As, when you explode Gale in act 2, it tells you how most everyone died by either becoming or being eaten by a mindflayer) or she gave the DU a possibility of redemption (again, destabilizing the plan and dooming it) and it pretty well explains why she wasn't the original chosen (I think there's even some letters that say it) Orin believes she knows better than Bhaal. When in reality she's just someone who is desperate for affection and trying to prove herself to people who are incapable of caring.

[@theawickward2255]

Orin's character is a tangle of tragedies, but one of the major ones is that her entire identity revolves around being Bhaal's chosen, but not only was she never that (it was first her mom, then the Dark Urge), she absolutely sucks at it. Most of the things she does, she does in part because she cannot admit to herself that she isn't one of Bhaal's chosen, she's a sacrifice that got uppity. And most of said things she does just further prove how she should've just died when she was seven and let the competent people handle things. I personally think that one big reason Orin is so devoted to being a Bhaalspawn is that it's her way of coping with murdering her mom. After all, if Bhaal chose her for great things and her mom trying to kill her was just a test, then Orin wouldn't have to be upset because it's just the way things should be, and it's Bhaal showing that he cared about her in a twisted way that Orin was raised to believe was right. But if it wasn't, and Sarevok wanted her dead and the only reason she's still alive is because Bhaal didn't care about either her or her mom, that's her whole justification gone.

[@jcdenton2187]

I came here to say this more or less. While i dont doubt the cult of Bhaal has its misogyny, i think the point was more than *nobody* likes Orin and that she actively fucked up the plan. There's a journal in her room implied to be written by the Dark Urge, that basically says Durge sees her talent but she simply doesnt get it when it comes to Bhaal. Sarevok echoes this too. Bhaal doesnt care for her or anyone else's idea of beauty, only for murder and death in droves. She has talent but refuses to learn and it costs everyone else around her. Gortash also reinforces the fact that she is far too compulsive and destructive, compared to Durge who while Bhaal's chosen, knew when to dial it back and could be worked with. Orin is the cult's equivalent to some kid who got their position in the company through no reap merit of their own and everyone below and around them has to suck it up and deal with it for the sake of their jobs, AND the kid is the embodiment of the Dunning-Krueger effect. That combined with Orin's tragedy of desperately vying for affection and love from people incapable of providing that for her makes me like her along with the other villians more than i did my first time through. She's yet another victim in the horrible cycle of abuse while still being a simply irredeemable murder hobo and it works well i think.

[@rayne4134]

i love your dissection of characters- you find the human in each one and fully illustrate their arcs and motives and it’s just wonderful i love your brain thank you for making these

[@Vegeta241]

I’m someone who has only watched clips and not played the game. I think the misogyny thing for Orin in relation to the Dark Urge is kind of a stretch only because… well, the Dark Urge can also be a woman. They are fully customizable. So when Bhaal and the others favor Durge over Orin, it doesn’t really feel like it is because of gender. More so… skill issue. The gender doesn’t really matter, being an efficient killer is what Bhall prefers.

[@lor7435]

would you consider doing a video on sarevok, if you’ve played the first two games? larian did him so dirty. he used to be one of the best written evil characters. he was intelligent and had a very interesting backstory. he was able to have a redemption arc as well if his sibling (the player character) showed him an ounce of love and care. i adore bg3 but not how they handled sarevok unfortunately.

[@Kaylz29]

I found her fascinating. She was definitely one of my favourite villains! You did (another) great job at explaining her complexity and motives! Thank you I’m really enjoying this series 😊

[@braxtonwalden8365]

Part of me thinks that Baal preferred Durge’s dependence on needing a hand. It made them more subservient, whereas Orin was very independent with her killings. Hell, she killed her butler.

[@timriley4643]

I can’t believe I haven’t seen your videos before. Screw the algorithm. Love these in depth analyses! Going to binge this channel while I’m finishing up my HM play through. Thanks for the videos!

[@taneelbrightblade6622]

As someone who fought a lot of bhaalspawn at Saravok’s side, I was disappointed that he went full monster in BG 3

[@PocketLeaves]

Oooh, that's so interesting. This is making me so excited to try out the older games though!

[@fedorustimenko3057]

Tbh, its not Sarevok we knew. If you ask him, how the hell he is alive, he will mention that a lesser bhaalspawn summoned "Sarevoks shadow" to posess this vessel. In essence, this not exactly the og Sarevok, but unholy abomination influenced by some pricks idea of who Sarevok was.

[@TheFlauschig]

I wouldn't see this as misogyny towards Orin. I interpret the criticism towards her not as a critic on her womanhood, but on her childishness. Its not inherent "feminine" behavior or her identity that gets her flak or makes her second choice to Durge. She is girly, because she toys around. Being creative and act with variant in their killings was also not unknown to the Durge. But Durge got shit done and moved Bhaals overall goal forward. Something Orin is incapeable of. And its this lack of maturity that leads to her ultimate mistake: Instead of just killing Durge, she needs to spite him/her. Her envy and jealousy dictate her actions. So she choses humiliation, instead of the proper way Bhaalspawns are supposed to deal with each other (in the end). She is really not capeable of leading the Bhaal cult. Immaturity and unrestrained madness just prohibid that from the start. I think thats why Bhaal would favor Durge, as long as Durge can win a duell against Orin.

[@laurenpaus7608]

i can fix her

[@reallyth0565]

BABE WAKE UP NEW POCKET LEAVES VIDEO JUST DROPPED 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

[@KollbjornYT]

As much as I feel bad for Orin's past she still scares the absolute shit out of me. Every time she shows up on screen I close my legs. tense up, and remain like that for a little bit even after she leaves. The last time a fictional character did that to me was in AtLA with Koh the Face Stealer. Also I don't see the other Bhaalspawns hating on Orin because she is a woman. I see it more as them finding any reason to hate on her because she was supposed to be the offering, not the Assassin.

[@chaos9059]

My warlock Emrys hated fighting Orin. Both of them have similar backgrounds. Her parents intended to kill her . She's pretty much his reflection in a cracked mirror. She's trapped in the darkness. Whereas he's found the light.

[@teenietinytony]

i know what it's like to love a father figure with your whole being but to never be enough for them. to never be what they actually want. i get it orin, i really do.

[@plaguedoctor2882]

I always felt sad for Orin, I really liked her painting, actually, no irony, I never liked Zevlor (sorry) and learning she made this amazing thematical painting was actually insanely cool, a very pleasant surprise even. I don´t know Orin's age and I wouldn't associate her with concepts of purity or innocence, but she's such a youth, it's insane, she wants to paint!! she wants to make and play with dolls!! Make her offerings special and pop out!! She loves using her powers to blend in and follows you around like a younger sibling in dire need of attention in a way Gortash or Ketheric would NEVER. Had she not been bhaalspawn or maybe raised outside of Bhaal I can totally see her as some chaotic adventurer, maybe she would have kept the violent quirks, but she definitely would have been better off. "No more Orin" is so SAD as well, like she wasn't even a person to Bhaal, but a silly phase, nonsense, unimportant

[@taneelbrightblade6622]

Are you planning to do a Jahiera video at some point? And if so, will you be visiting the previous games?

[@PocketLeaves]

I think it'd be fun, but I'd want to play the older games first! I've never played the first 2 Baldur's Gate games, but am very interested!

[@user-KS-13]

@@PocketLeaves Make sure to duel Yoshimio at level 9 into fighter and give him the best weapons he can use (katanas and the style you want him to use).

[@destinygalearies7382]

Everyone talks about how Ketheric is so tragic but I honestly hate his stupid ass and think Orin is by far the more tragic villain. (Have heard about Gortash's tragic backstory but not actually seen/experienced the ingame lore so can't comment.) Ketheric was a grown ass man who had complete control of his actions at all times. All of the things he did for love were things that his wife/daughter would've absolutely hated, mourned, or been appalled by, which imo shows that Ketheric's actions are less motivated by love and more motivated by a desire to posess his family (mostly his daughter) as people he clenches tightly in his fist to never let go of. He sees entirely in terms of his own grief and how HE feels, never about what their desires are, especially his daughter. If Isobel successfully gets kidnapped, not only is Ketheric evil by ripping Isobel from her charges (people she clearly cared about protecting, or wanting to stop Shar's darkness as a cleric of Selune at least), he also puts A FUCKING MINDFLAYER TADPOLE in her and basically brainwashes her into going "oh thank you father now I understand the error of my ways." At heart Ketheric is a narrow minded, controlling bastard who decides he wants something (even something that could be good, like his family) and will sacrifice everything, even the entire world, just to get what HE wants. Every single decision he made was his choice as a grown ass adult with a wife and a child, raised in privilege and comfort and love with everything he ever wanted. Meanwhile at least Orin was born into a cult and groomed from birth to be crazy and evil. If she has this in common with Durge, she may even be compelled/inclined towards violence by the very nature of being the blood of Bhaal. Not only did she have no choice in where/how/to whom she was born, she may have been cosmically doomed by her very own blood/existence into being evil. There was no way for Orin to become any other person than the monster she is, and that's why I find her infinitely more tragic than Ketheric could ever hope to be. (And yeah, the thing is I normally love sad dads/daddy's girls in fiction, and I was ready to sympathize with Ketheric on that account at least, but the second I saw what he did with his daughter, the full force of my love for daddy-daughter relationships reversed from love into hatred for just how much of a sick fuck you need to be to forcibly kidnap your daughter and brainwash her into loving you bc you're so evil she wants nothing to do with you lmao)

[@queenfae9338]

I've had Orin in camp as Lae'zel try to convince you to let her end yenna the orphan

[@Destinyisforlosers24]

You’re so adorable and intelligent! Love your laugh as well (: Ive been adoring your thorough special interests videos, they are super easy to watch and understand!

[@Honeymoon4400]

I think so dearly of Orin, she is just a girl Now seriously, I aways do female dark urges and I honestly think it brings so much more in the idea of a misogynistic cult and like, this female competition towards being the favored one I could do a whole deep dive into this but English is not my first language so I won’t, so for that I’ll just say I love Orin shes just like me fr

[@Kasiarzynka]

I genuinely, genuinely don't think that there's misogyny involved with how Orin is portrayed/perceived by other characters, and I'm the kinda person who sits kinda deep (for an average YT viewer) in online leftist circles, where there's quite some space dedicated to talking about discrimination based on things like race and gender, as well as being LGBTQ+ and stuff like that. I'm also a cis woman, for what it matters (and I don't think it does because women can be misogynistic, too, but I guess it matters in terms of the POV I'm looking at this whole thing from). Anyway, hear me out. It really does feel like more than anything, she just misses the vibe check, while at the same time very much passing the skill check. Not sure if it's ever mentioned how long EXACTLY Dark Urge was in charge of the Temple of Bhaal, or alive in general, but it is stated that they've committed thousands of murders. Because they very much understood that Bhaal only cares about numbers. It's kinda a big thing with the whole main plotline and the Prayer for Forgiveness we can find in the mind flayer colony (available to read online) written by Durge: "(...) those of Bane always fall to the same folly: they cannot see the beauty of obliteration. The Absolute hoax will garner false love from our new slaves, but once I've built a large enough army, I will use our hold upon the Absolute's slaves to begin this vile world's end. (...) Father, you created me to be the last soul alive. When the time is right, and my power is assured I will slaughter Gortash and Ketheric upon your altar, where I myself hope to die when the world itself is gasping its last. At the end of this all, Father, there will be not a single creature living. Everyone will die. Everyone will die for YOU. I will make you proud." Bhaalist objective is literally to slaughter every last being alive. They don't have time for esthetics. In the time Dolor (the dwarf dressed in red) and others who serve Orin are arranging pretty corpses (like under that temple where we first investigate the murders), after having poisoned and maimed their targets, they could've killed twice as many. Orin and her methods are inefficient, no matter what childhood trauma they stem from. She didn't even kill Dark Urge even though she really could and probably should have. She played with their brain matter, put a worm in it and left, rather than kill, lmao. Imma be honest, when I first heard Sarevok talk about how Orin doesn't understand Bhaal because he does not care for beauty of murder, it felt like bs. What god of murder wouldn't prefer a sacrificial, ritualistic kill, rather than a quite and quick throat slit in a dark alley? How could killing of a king NOT be better than killing of a homeless beggar living in the city sewers? Also, you can kill in so many ways. You can incinerate people with Fire Balls but somehow the theme for Bhaalists seems to be blood, which would hint at cutting/piercing weapons instead, but Bhaal shouldn't care, right? So, he kinda cares? Idk It took me playing as an evil Durge who embraced her heritage to fully grasp it, I think. And I think Prayer for Forgiveness is truly crucial in understanding it, as, again, the ultimate goal is to ensure that there's no life left. Which is why the Absolute hoax and getting control over Grand Design is such a great tool for Bhaalists, if they can pull it off, seeing how, from my understanding, illithid ruled the world before being dismantled by the githyanki. Understanding that, the "why" Bhaal cares so much about numbers, is why I've started another playthrough, where this time, I'm rolling as a solo Durge and her objective is to basically kill as many people on her path as she can. "BLOOD WHISPERS" as my Durges like to remind me. Back to the misogyny part. Idk if it has any influence on my perception, but all the Durges I've played so far (one good and resisting, one evil who embraced her Urges and claimed the Grand Design for Bhaal, and two evil ones still in act 1) are women. Maybe if one plays as a male Durge (and I know the canon/default one is a make dragonborn) the whole "because she's a woman" is a little more readable, idk. But it doesn't exactly feel intentional to me. She's crazy, which reminds me of Uncle Iroh's quote about Azula: "No. She is crazy, and she needs to go down". That's very much the case with Orin, too. And I doubt Uncle Iroh was a raging sexist 😅. Although, one could argue that there's a crazy kinda archetype that MOSTLY women fall into, like Orin, Jinx from Arcane, Azula from Avatar The Last Airbender and I believe Harley Quinn (?) I don't know enough about her character, though, but I think she has unhinged vibes like Orin. Granted, Azula isn't unhinged crazy, at least for 95% of the show, but she shares themes of never feeling like she's enough, trying to impress the one person whose opinion she cares for, and spiraling down when she realizes that person never cared for her. And Jinx shares the kinda childish play theme you mentioned with Orin, while also striving to impress the one person she cares about (except that person ACTUALLY cares about her back). I can't think about a single male character that'd fall into that category, and I think if anything here, THAT WHOLE TROPE is kinda sexist. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk and I'm open for discussion (unless I miss a notification about a reply, which sometimes happens 😅).

[@Kasiarzynka]

Regarding feeling sorry etc. for Orin, I 100% agree. I don't know how much of her was nature and how much was nurture, but it's quite heartbreaking, learning the extent of her background story, how she was basically intended as a sacrificial lamb from the get go, how her father told her mother to kill her (and Sarevok and Helena did basically debate what would be the best way to sacrifice her to Bhaal, which, again, hello? Bhaal doesn't care about the pretty sacrifice? Idk), how she seems to constantly want to prove herself. How you can basically break her at the end by revealing everything Sarevok did to her, and she says she did it all for him (Sarevok), only to have Bhaal intervene and turn her into Slayer. Once again, she reminds me of both Jinx and Azula, who could've used a loving parental figure. But Jinx was an orphan and, well, I won't spoil what goes down in the first 3 episodes. And Azula's mother resented her for her violent tendencies, while showing care and love to her brother, and her father basically always pushed her to be a better fighter and that's the only thing he cared for, her being efficient and perfect, not her as a child. I can't help but feel compassion for those kids whose mental health was destroyed in the process (Azula is literally like 14-15, I think Jinx is 17-18ish? Orin seems older).

[@PocketLeaves]

It really depends on if you play Durge as to weather or not Orin kills them and is "better". When do not play Dark Urge, you can find the default durge dragonborn on the floor of Orin's room, dead. When you do play Dark Urge, there's no body there. I think the main reason I felt like Orin's failure of the vibe check is related to misogyny is just the way Sarevok talks about her, but I have seen someone point out that calling it a girlish charm may also be more of a note on her maturity than gender. I'm not super tied to the misogyny reading, but it was just my initial impression!

[@ltsoup2778]

MINTHARA RUN PLZZZZ WE LOVE EVIL WOMEN

[@Melina_Evarblume_Seelie]

I don't know if it is misogyny and moreso just abuse on a systematic level, but it's a very interesting interpretation that makes a lot of sense.

[@greyngreyer5]

There is no real tragedy tbh. She embraced her evil side and took it to the max. It isn't a tragedy that she was born into circumstances barring her from any redemption at all. A tragedy, traditionally, is someone trying to be good in vain.

[@heptagramm]

she's so pathetic i love her so much (i mean Orin)

[@emilyciuppa9266]

These are good vids

[@Rolling1s]

Would love to see someone do a fan film about her life tbh (no incest scenes tho please) Minthara too

[@DigiThorn]

Okay but this mean your *definitely* doing an analysis of dark urge now right? 😜 Edit: Also yes, I did role my eyes, but that more because… well I don’t think anyone is gonna take the potential critique of misogyny via *murder cult* any kind of serious 😂

[@ProfessionalYouTubeWatcher]

Whicho cute ass laugh

[@emilyonearth5354]

God second comment of mine but this is such a fucking hot take about orins feminine creativity not being appreciated

[@CaitlynBianchi-ig]

If you look at a lot of Religion or the differences between how female murder/rapist/drug lords are treated or betrayed, it is an authentic portrayal of how society and those in groups treat women within their ranks. It is upholding the traditional views of women in male dominated spaces. Some can see the patronizing is a female privilege vs how men are treated in those spaces as the carriers of the traditional standards of stoicism and providing at the end of sacrificing their life to be the beast of burden in service to society and their families. Both sides of this coin have a lot of suck to then and are not healthy for men/women/non binary people. It is truly dehumanizing in aspects of societies in groups and families. 100% Orin is someone to feel for because her life and how she is manipulated and underappreciated in her efforts in her wish to please her god and other spawn. It truly is a tragic life.

[@Emma-se5wm]

orin is the visually artistic prodigy in a family full of athletes and bards.

[@Wilted.lycoris]

I relate a lot to Orin. Not in the murderous tendencies way, but in the constantly wanting that feeling of acceptance. I was the “gifted” kid growing up. From a young age I was told that I was “more mature” or “smarter than most”. As I grew older however,what I was once praised for was now a bad thing. “You’re too mature for this.” Or “You’re too smart for your own good.” Those types of sentiments. Which led me to doing anything I could to get those positive regards back. I took on too much work,I strived to make everything I did perfect,but it only made things worse. Suddenly I “tried too hard” or was “fishing for compliments.” All the while,my own sibling was being praised for the same things. It’s that being put on a pedestal,and then falling off,but being unable to climb back on that relates me to Orin. She was a prodigy,lifted up so she stopped developing mentally,and then had all that ripped away from her and suddenly finding herself being the mistake. She had no chance of being anything more than what she was and it’s heartbreaking that I relate to her in this way. I don’t think she could’ve been redeemed in game, but she’s a prime example of villains aren’t born,they’re made. Also,this was stupid long and I apologize.

[@sharaleenowakhernandez9081]

I loved this

[@jeremygardner5987]

It’s a more common experience than you’d think. I relate.

[@teenietinytony]

don't worry, you're not alone. i wish you the best

[@nina9565]

The cycle of abuse is one of the most important themes in this game, and Orin is a character that continues the cycle with no chance of leaving it. I have no sympathy for her, but no hate either, just pity.

[@NoahofWill]

Second comment to say that I've told my friends that this game is about cycles of abuse, and no one illustrates that more than the Chosen. Religious abuse. Familial Abuse. Societal/Communal Abuse. Ketheric sought solace from the gods, but in the end, received nothing in return until Myrkul revived Isobel, and even then, in his moment of greatest need, Myrkul cut his loses and ran. Gortash lived in a poor family with parents that didn't foster his gifts nor temper his worst attributes. When his parents sold him to Raphael to settle their debts, he was treated like absolute dog crap, to the point where he even seems to have adopted Raphael's philosophies to the point here he agrees with Raphael's methods and ideals. He adopted the ways of the Hells because it was the only way he could survive, and upon his return, found a God who not only espoused those beliefs, but rewarded them. I'm willing to bet money that the thing that elevated Gortash to becoming Bane's chosen was betraying Karlach and then utilizing that betrayal to benefit himself. Orin's very conception was an act of abuse perpetrated by those she should have been able to call family, and it never got any easier or better from there. Lied to, dehumanized, made inferior, and then, in her eyes, seemingly mocked by being provided a *helper* of all things from the being she's been working so hard to please, the being she calls Father...

[@antman1672]

Durge playthrough completely deflates Orin's character. In a Tav playthrough Orin is scary and insane, someone you should be afraid of. In the Durge playthrough she is the annoying younger sister who is jealous of you being the favorite, and steals your toys.

[@PocketLeaves]

She's still pretty scary if your Durge is a bard that wasn't built to do a lot of damage on their own.

[@emperortime4380]

@@PocketLeavesSwords bard with 1 level of War Cleric, Gloves of Archery, Titanstring Bow, and Club of Hillgiant Strength can kill Orin in 1-2 rounds on balanced as long as you get the Surprise round with Shovel.

[@DestroyerOfSouls213]

@@emperortime4380playing durge and you *don’t* duel Orin? It’s such a cool sequence, did it on my first honor run as a roguebarian duergar (so enraged and enlarged slayer form + potion of speed)

[@emperortime4380]

@@DestroyerOfSouls213 I’ve played so many times at this point, I just speedrun Orin. One time I just used Surgeon’s Subjugation and paralyzed her to start combat. This video has revitalized my interest in her as a character, but I had been super over her after my third run when she kidnapped Gale. I was literally about to finish his setup with Staff of Cherished necromancy then I run into her in the sewers. I was real life mad lol

[@emperortime4380]

@@DestroyerOfSouls213 I’m actually getting close to her on my first honor run. It’s the last achievement I need

[@emmasilver2332]

All three of the chosen of the Dead Three are characters I'm capable of feeling sorry for while also recognizing they are too far gone to be redeemed.

[@PocketLeaves]

YES! That's what's so good about the writing in this game!

[@emilyonearth5354]

The parallel between Orin bringing an arts and crafts vibe to the cult and me in my fly ass looks living in a monastery are undeniable

[@Armorion]

6:45 Oh you couldn't murder your daughter? "Skill issue" (This shouldn't have made me laugh as much as it did)

[@NoahofWill]

I agree that the way Sarevok uses the term "girlish" could be interpreted as misogyny, that was my first thought too, but my second thought was it was probably a reference to her maturity. Or, rather, her immaturity. Sarevok is older (and not inbred >.>), formerly a champion of Bhaal and now serving him in death. Sarevok knows more than his grand/daughter what their Dread Progenitor wants from his offspring, and he knows that Orin is prone to the same arrogance that led to the Dark Urge's downfall. After all, look at how she treats her Butler, a gift from Bhaal himself. To him her actions are the height of thinking she knows better, and that, at this point, only her own death will teach her.

[@PocketLeaves]

I can see that! It's hard for me to gauge just how old Orin is supposed to be, and therefore how mature/immature she is. But she does have a bit of youthfulness to her, and especially when you play as Dark Urge, she feels younger than you, like the younger sibling trying to measure up and surpass you.

[@NoahofWill]

@@PocketLeaves the game refers to her as a woman, so I think she's at the very least of-age. Course, they call Gortash a you man and he's easily mid-late-20's to early 30's, so who knows

[@destinygalearies7382]

I always thought she was just a young woman, but Sarevok describes Orin as the youngest prodigy of Bhaal ever, so I've honestly started wondering if Orin ingame is actually only around 19-20. I mean, maybe he was referring to the fact that Orin murdered her mother at age 7 and became Bhaal's chosen (on a Tav/non-Durge playthrough), but I do think it's interesting to imagine Orin in the present day being barely an adult (in modern sensibilities at least) or even a mere teenager. It's not very often you have an antagonist that's so young

[@williamchristy9463]

I think the misogyny resding is a misreading, on the basis that sarevok supported his daughter. I think the point she goes about killing in a far more handcrafted way is more to the point. The bhaalspawn transformation itself shows that Bhaal desires bloody carnage, not artistic display.

[@akatsuki3399]

That, and it isn’t consistent across playthroughs. My durge is a female drow, and obviously durge doesn’t go through the same stuff Orin has to in any capacity. While you could argue that’s because they were handcrafted by Bhaal, it still wouldn’t make sense for him to handcraft a female if sexism was heavily involved in the cult.

[@williamchristy9463]

@@akatsuki3399 As far as I can recall, sexism isn't part of his character in either of the other Baldur gate games either.

[@CasualShinji]

The tragedy of Orin is that she never stood a chance.

[@theawickward2255]

It took the Dark Urge amnesia, an Illithid tadpole, multiple wisdom saves, and Jergal's own intervention to break free of Bhaal. What does Orin have going for her? Certainly not the wisdom to make any saving throws.

[@oliversmith4548]

@@theawickward2255 Idk, she DOES have a wisdom score of 16

[@svenkrules9855]

It's obviously a skill issue

[@RobThePrincess]

Sarevok has a huge redeeming journey in BG2, as your companion. Its really cool to see him grow and reject bhaal after realizing he was never going to rule and was always destined to be a pawn. Unfortunately that story is based on character decisions which generally cant be assumed to be canon, however his discoveries of bhaals manipulation happen either way. But its totally invalidated in BG3, Where Sarevok is Bhaals favorite pawn. It was a waste of a great story. Although we do see a similar journey with Minthara, rejecting Lolth and the absolute. But the biggest issue with her, is she never got enough story. Imagine getting Mintharas story but with all the more context and backstory that Sarevok has. We were so close! Also Orin is cool too. Lol sorry, i like Sarevok.

[@Zandalorscat]

I agree. I also felt the same way about Viconia, her role in BG3 goes completely against her journey up till then.

[@jbear3478]

Didn’t he fuck his daughter

[@eliasapollo4131]

You have no idea how excited I am to see that you decided to analyse Orin after the companions and the emperor!!! I love her sm (Durge player here) and honestly? To me, she's such a sad character. Sure, Ketheric and Gortash have their own sob stories, but they both had some measure of choice in becoming what they are. Orin though? Never stood a chance. She was *literally* born and bred to be a tool for Bhaal. She never had a life outside the cult, like Durge did in their childhood. Orin was made to be an instrument, and if you make her doubt for just a moment when you meet her in the Bhaal temple, Bhaal just forcibly takes over. Any autonomy or agency she ever appears to have is an illusion. Its so tragic

[@eliasapollo4131]

Additional ramblings: orin and durge. oughhh tragic siblings mess me up every time. They NEVER stood a chance to get along, to truly bond. They were played up against each other from the beginning, thus is the nature of their cult upbringing. They spent their lives competing for the love of a god who only ever saw them as tools, not people :((

[@blakcharazard213]

No, time to turn the world off for a moment. Don’t bother me. New pocket leaves video is up, I can’t be interrupted 😊 Seriously, I absolutely LOVE the deep dives you do. It’s always a good day when there’s a new upload of yours to look forward to 😁

[@OakandIV]

An excellent look at Orin, a character I had never thought deeply on. I always saw her, as you suggested, as the “unredeemed” Durge. Particularly good calls on the misogyny of her treatment and the nature vs nurture differences between Orin & Durge. My favorite criticism of Durge by Skeleritus was the horrifying tale of how Durge once gave a coin to a beggar and then spared him. I usually joke that anything is forgivable if you’re cute enough (Astarion), but in the case of Orin and Durge I’m not sure. Great take. Thanks.

[@JohnLukeKuruczGomez]

I’d wager Bhaal is also in on the misogyny and playing favorites. Orin never gets a compliment from Bhaal until she dies! When you kill her in the duel as Durge, Bhaal remarks “I expected the other [Orin].” Yet at every other turn it’s clear that Durge is the favored of Bhaal, but I guess maybe spurning her all the time is a calculated move by Bhaal. It’s what drives her.

[@PocketLeaves]

I can totally see this!!

[@starrychan33]

She's a lot like Azula in that regard

[@boianko]

I can see the misogyny being something that Bhaal: a) Does because he is a man himself, and is incredibly self-centred. b) Favours because it allows for the creation of more Bhaalspawn since a male can sire children at a much faster rate than a female.

[@TGPDrunknHick]

dunno about misogyny. pretty sure it has more to do with Orin being Sarevok's incest baby and not Bhaal's actual kid. Meanwhile Durge has no mother is and literally formed from Bhaal's own gore and vicera. Durge is the chosen child above all others as essentially a kind of clone of Bhaal's and Orin is just there.

[@meliannhawke3318]

​​@@TGPDrunknHickI recently finished my first Dark Urge playthrough, but I didn't know that - I thought the Dark Urge was "just" a normal Bhaal spawn. Where do we learn that they are in fact crafted by Bhaal and have no mother? I would love to know! ❤

[@crimsonredux]

understanding a villain you hated on is a VERY humbling (but not unwelcome) experience😭

[@sethazillax2553]

I think one thing people don't touch on enough, is that changelings are Fey, not humanoids. And Fey in the forgotten realms have innately a very alien form of alignment. So her acting much different than her human allies would like just makes so much sense. Like her mentality is literally alien to humans. So her not having good human connections, I think has less to do with her family being shit and more to do with she literally doesn't have that innate desire for human connections. The only connection she wants is with her deity. Changelings by nature do not have the innate emotion to trust others. Their entire lives is built on lies and deceit.

[@theawickward2255]

Changelings are also native to Eberron, not the Forgotten Realms.

[@bia5141]

Yes I think its perfectly fine to relate to some aspects of evil characters. People sometimes confuse real life with fiction and think its weird someone likes villain who does evil things bit I am always like hey just because I like them doesn’t mean I accept their actions. Sometimes its about those relatable aspects which speak to me and its usually some trauma from childhood those characters went through which I can relate to and it makes me feel seen in a way. And sometimes its that tragedy of those characters hidden under layers of lore which make me like them in the first place

[@jakubport7361]

In a realm of "I can fix her", she's a final boss.

[@myheartismadeofstars]

Orin is yet another character that showcases the fact that the theme of BG3 is Autonomy with a lot of character arcs revolving around utilizing their own choice for the first time. Also i like how you can find a dead Durge if you play as Tav. Looks like she won in that timeline

[@icetide9411]

I headcanon that Orin would idolize Lady Gaga because of her taste in fashion. Takes guts to wear pretty meat (literally)

[@zogkuma]

Did anyone notice that in the normal playthrough, Orin's room has a dead, pale dragonborn next to her bed? Yup. The Dark Urge exists even in the normal route, and was betrayed by Orin , BUT they died in the process... Makes you wonder if the normal, "Tav" character is dead or unaffiliated in the adventure during the Dark Urge playthrough... 🤔

[@Idk_stuffffff]

I adore these analyses ^^

[@Nathan_Coley]

Ask yourself why "misogyny" is dismissed by a lot of gamers these days. Perhaps because it's been repeatedly misused for the last 10+ years since GG1?

[@theexplorer066.]

Sarevok did nothing in bhaal name in the past, he wanted to become the new lord of murder.

[@ygma1460]

Hello. Regarding the misogyny point, what's your opinion on these points: 1. Bhaalists didn't look down on her because she was a woman. They looked down on her because of the arts and crafts mentality. If there would have been a male cultist doing the arts and crafts, he would have been treated dismissively as well? 2. Dark Urge does not have a set appearance, he can be edited. And Dark Urge can be a woman as well, meaning Bhaal would have been ok hand-crafting a female champion as well? 3. Orin herself never shows any resentment for being treated a certain way because she is a woman. More like her grudges are targeted at individuals because of who they are/what they have done/haven't done, not because they are men.

[@DatBoiKwame]

The Dark Urge can be any gender though, right? Orin is just looked down on because she's nuts, has nothing to do with her gender, weird stretch to acknowledge it and then still try that. Like Bhaal throws people away for less than being difficult, so her being eccentric definitely made her his least favorite prodigy between her and the aforementioned ANY GENDER Dark urge. And the literal point of the Cult is using everyone in it til they are bled dry. I think those two are enough to imply that this isn't 'bad' treatment because she's a woman. It's just plain bad treatment applied to everyone in the cult equally. I agree with nearly everything else, the gender jab was just thrown from a weird angle.

[@Ikit1Claw]

Gotta say, i hate orin. She is one of worst kind of characters for me, and personally, while playing I could not wait until I get to kill her. When Gortash wanted me to kill her, he did not have to convince me. Her nutter character and that tendency to constantly shove herself into situations gets on my nerves more than I thought it would. Luckily, I was able to gain a measure of revenge by telling her about her father/grandfather. Seriously, here I wanted to enjoy a bit of "wow, so this is baldurs gate, we're here!" but instead i get a failed joker cosplayer event every 10 meters

[@valor144]

Great video. I really like your way of analysing everything. However no matter how much I try , Orin is so psychotic I cannot rly relate at any level. I prefer villains like Ketheric, who despite being obviously evil, you can understand the reasons behind them. Orin is just evil, because she likes to murder? It makes no sense to me and I wish we had some explanation how she was led to worshipping Bhal in the first place. I mean I understand she was raised from Helena , worshipping Sarevok, but you can't really love something unconditionally with no restrictions, just because they told you to. I cannot relate with her at any level and I just enjoy destroying her every time

[@channel45853]

While it could mean something relating to mysogyny, I don't think so. To me, it is the same as saying something is misandrist because someone said a man was acting like a boy. I think the line refers to the childish nature of her elaborate kills. Gortash even seems to communicate this when he compares the way you and Orin kill when you first meet him. Orin is like a caricature of the dark urge, whom seems to be trying too hard to impress people. And when you try too hard to impress people, that could backfire and make you look desperate.

[@Elanchana]

I stretched canon a bit by making my redemption Dark Urge character Orin's twin sister. Her name was Remi and she was more calculating and less impulsive than Orin. They had a sibling rivalry from birth, both heavily competing for Bhaal's favor. Orin's murder of Helena when they were children gave her the top spot for a while, but Remi won out in adulthood by devising the Absolute project. Orin got so angry that she ended up sabotaging the plan and turning Remi into a victim of it.

[@santiagojara8056]

I mean, saying Orin is good at what she does is a bit of a stretch. She's probably the worst changeling ever and she gets caught up in the frenzy too easily. The way Scleritas describes her murder attempt on the Durge makes it clear that she suceeded pretty much because Durge didn't think much of her to begin with. All three chosen seem like lost children without Durge. Orin is a child who cannot control herself, Gortash is literally Elon Musk and Ketheric is an old-ass LARPER.

[@ziggystardust457]

Orin comes across as a teenager I thought. Suspended adolescence maybe?

[@PocketLeaves]

That's possible! I'm not entirely sure how old she's supposed to be, other than just adult. I could easily see her being in her 20s or so.

[@sonasierra7824]

16:20 she can actually show up in camp!! My last playthrough I didn’t get to the sewers for a while so she showed up in camp as Lae’zel and was trying to convince me that Yenna was Orin, and then I had to choose between her and the kid. Chose to kid, she revealed herself and Orin and let Yenna go.

[@bluedeath882]

Do you think that Orin could have potentially had a redemption like the Dark Urge if she had been the one betrayed and tadpoled?

[@PocketLeaves]

I'm honestly not sure! I'd like to think so? If that's the story that Larian wanted to tell, then I think it'd be possible. But I've had people tell me that since she's a changeling, morality is very different for her.

[@Wilted.lycoris]

It’s not canon whatsoever,but I’m doing a redemption durge run as Orin lmao. Just for my own satisfaction.

[@theawickward2255]

@@PocketLeaves They're wrong. Changelings do have a generally human mindset and whatever differences they have are mostly a reaction to being able to shapeshift at will.

[@lunarcryptid]

OMG....... I always felt sympathy towards Orin but I wasn't really sure why... Thank you for making me understand why. As an aut1stic person, having always felt like I wasn't enough or not accepted... I now understand why I kind of related to her even though she's kind of super evil. I have an understanding of trying to get people to accept me, And have them not accept me no matter how hard I try...

[@ValeryValWho]

It didn't occur to me the misogynistic view with Orin and now I feel so bad! I played a male Dark Urge and joked about the pre-amnesia time being “me and the boys” (Gortash, Ketheric, and my male Durge) 😅

[@PocketLeaves]

asdasdf omg the boys taking over the world for their gods.

[@lunarcryptid]

I saw the butler saying that the dark urge couldn't conduct themselves properly meant that they were TOO gross and violent about their killings.... But maybe I'm wrong

[@shyanfakhraey4841]

You know if you play as evil dark urge if you tell orin your grandfather actually is your father bhaal tells orin I make you deserving sacrifice for my favourite child and force her become slayer

[@Salfredo2548]

In BG2 Sarevok's story is about discovering himself without being a Baalspawn. So it's kinda disappointing to see him revert to being unambiguously evil.

[@ZPM7]

that MCR joke has me imagining sarevok listening to the black parade on like an ipod nano that would have been around when the song came out -- with the little white wired earbuds inside his big spikey helmet -- interpreting it through a bhaalist lens and kinda getting the whole thing backwards but relating so hard to it that he gets genuinely emotional and misty eyed

[@1Psyblade1]

This analysis has me wondering if an Orin redemption arc could be interesting to explore, maybe through a fan-interpreted mod or something. The fact that she does seem to experience genuine shock and, while maybe not remorse, then betrayal, to revealing the nature of her familial origins, did get me somewhat interested in the idea of exploring if it's possible -- in that it'd be interesting from a writing perspective -- for Orin to be given a new hand that's slightly less evil, maybe.

[@amandadiamond7147]

Orin: Nobody appreciates my artisanal murder spree.

[@odd-eyes6363]

As real as it is, I don't think mysoginy is the reason she was downplayed. The question is more about "purity". Being treated so highly despite the fact she wasn't true Bhaalspawn, while the "perfect" specimen is around her at all times. She just received the taint from her blood. Durge actually seemed to cherish her, saying on his letter that Orin still needs to grow and that he admires her abilities as a shape-shifter. I'm disappointed Larian didn't seem to make the effort to create a redeemed Urge that's honestly trying to save his sister, even if it's impossible.

[@justsomeferalminor]

I wish I could stand up for Orin as Dark Urge cause tbh I'm not that mad at her. I respect the hussle. Also I am forever weak for siblings in media.

[@vincentfrick6880]

I saw this video a while ago but didn't look it up because I wanted to finish the game a few times. I forgot about for a time then the video pops up in my recommend and after checking this our you got style. Good on you for having your own opinions and even if I don't ship the same I at least can understand where your coming from. I enjoyed the murder art's and crafts way of explaining how Orin go about things and can totally get on bored with that take. Now I'm off to check out more from this channel now that I found it again.

[@DrGaslight187]

He must led the Murder March to Baldur’s Grave was definitely a bar

[@PocketLeaves]

She was so quirky for that asdfasdf

[@E3AloeLi]

Orin is my silly murder hobo fantasy. Sometimes I’m just so tried and going apeshit is a vibe. I’m making a murder hobo oc for them to commit murder together and be sadistic. This OC is the epitome of my urges from “I make art cuz murder is wrong”

[@El_chara]

The tragedy is that fucking 11 hit shields holy shit

[@fiel81]

Just beat her today, I strongly agree

[@jungtothehuimang]

very cool to see the game devs come up with a reprehensibly evil character who also has a reason for why and how she became that way. it's something you don't seem too often honestly. I love Larian.

[@th33th1ng]

I believe the misogynistic undertones surrounding Orin has to be purposeful because of the nature of her changeling abilities. Changelings can change their physical appearance, including their sex. It's not uncommon for a changeling to have a set of faces/personas and switch them like switching languages. So having Orin stay in one form wherever she's not impersonating someone else feels like a purposeful decision to add to the tragedy

[@markrobert9981]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this or not but when the Dark Urge kills Alfira there is a Bhaal symbol on the ground next to her body

[@gracewinchester2537]

Orin is also her own aunt. Sarevok sired orin on his daughter

[@RicardoKoei]

I dont think its misogyny, i think orin is just too chaotic to carry long term plans. If there was any intentional misogyny then a female durge should get some special dialogue.

[@Itsatragedeigh]

If you don’t go to the sewers for a looong time (which i did kinda by accident) she will come to the camp as yenna if you let her stay (idk if she comes as anyone else)

[@caterpillarnana]

There is a butt load of undeniable in your face massagini in BG3. Anyone that can't see it must not know the meaning of the word.

[@xx44661]

I felt more like Orin's murders being called girlish was more like refering to her as a child, who plays with her food rather than about her gender.

[@Honeymoon4400]

Orin is an artist in a family that doesn’t support it actually Orin is me actually

[@Nesquiick]

Your outfit is so cool! Did you purposely made it match Orin's color theme or was it a coincidence?

[@yldzyldz790]

I wish there was a different, and happy ending for her and some villains (other chosens etc) too.

[@payday7679]

I don’t think it’s a issue with her femininity, in regards to worship I think it’s very similar to the irl issue of different ideas of how to please god because even if it goes unsaid her choosing to do it differently inherently implies she thinks the others are doing it wrong and it would occur to the others and that is quite an insulting prospect especially from what they likely see as a lucky/gifted upstart so there contempt is stemming from that ( that’s the impression I got at least)

[@memecat9830]

How to grant Orin the chance of redemption: 🤕🔨

[@starrychan33]

Amazing work as always! however you did miss something with her impersonating your companions. I Don't know what triggers it but I know most the time I've seen the cutscene it's been in the elf song. But she will impersonate one of your companions doing something terrible to terrorize you before revealing herself. Lae'zel is threatening Yenna iirc. Minthara will say she killed another companion in self defense and that you and her are going to have to fight off the other companions because they lump you two together. Halsin will go wild and look like he hurt Scratch (he's actually okay). Gale will freak out and act like he's blowing himself up. I think Yenna kills the cat if it's her

[@PocketLeaves]

I have finished the game 4 times, and have never seen her do that, so I wasn't aware of that until reading these comments! I really need to figure out how to get those scenes to trigger

[@tinydarkjewel]

​@@PocketLeavesIf you take all companions that are Orin's potential hostages (Halsin, Gale and Lae'Zel; if Minthara is also present, the leftover companion will always be the hostage). That way, Yenna will be the hostage, and all your companions are available. As for Orin; I don't know. I don't see her as my Durge's sister, never did. I get the impression that Durge is more sibling like with Sarevok than Orin, being that both Durge and Sarevok seems created by Bhaal himself, while Orin was made in a more traditional manner if not in the most natural genetic fashion.