Is the "Good Book" Really So Good?

Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses.
In this episode Bart interviews Jill Hicks-Keeton about her sure-to-be controversial book, recently released: The Good Book: How White Evangelicals Save the Bible to Save Themselves. We are all familiar with the disturbing parts of the Bible, with its divinely sanctioned violence from the destruction of Jericho in the Old Testament to the destruction of the world in the New, from the passages that justify slavery to the patriarchal views of ancient Israel and the writings in the name of Paul. How have evangelicals tried to salvage these disturbing passages in order to make them not just tame but "good" for readers today? Listen to this interview and hear Prof. Hicks-Keeton explain.

[@tensecondbuickgn]

"Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise." Sam Pascoe

[@waldemarkirszniok298]

Nice quote!

[@DneilB007]

That is a killer quote! Thanks for sharing it!

[@LordMerlic]

Well said!

[@timsans1170]

Except it's nonsense. The Greeks and Italians became servant

[@kurtoogle4576]

I really appreciate the point that Jill Hicks-Keeton is making here. I was 17 when I sat down and thoroughly read the whole bible. After that, I have often been baffled by the radical differences between Christian cultures and the Canon. The seemingly deliberate avoidance of historical, cultural, and textual context is particularly frustrating to me.

[@raycaster4398]

"Cherry-picking" the Bible it's called. Leaving out the man-concocted innumerable inconsistencies, scientific impossibilities, errors, horrific misogyny, slavery, homophobia, infanticide, genocide, global ecocide, etc.

[@he1ar1]

I tried to read the cable when I was 16/17. I couldn't get past Leviticus. I couldn't understand what I was reading.

[@JohnD808]

I wonder if Christian cultures weren’t reading the Bible like modern-day Evanglicals

[@ThetennisDr]

I'm glad super happy that I didn't read the bible until I became born again christian. The bible is Satan's playbook and the church also so churches are prob the human trafficking huts.... Jesus still god even if some book is garbage

[@raphaelrossi6339]

I’ve met so many Christians that have said, “but that’s not what God or Jesus meant. What he really meant was…” And project their own idea as to what an ideal God would really mean. A psychological comforting that you know the truth while most people don’t.

[@Cole205]

This is because the mindset of the O.T. Js is alien to the European mind

[@John.Flower.Productions]

If you think Christians are bad, you would be shocked/amazed by the so-called Jews.

[@Cole205]

​@@John.Flower.Productionsbased

[@sherwinsy7250]

but how would they know what GOD or Jesus really meant exactly?😂

[@Yesica1993]

I've met so many anti-Christian bigots (online) who have never read the full Bible, have no clue what it says about anything, and yet still won't stop ranting and raving against it.

[@T-41]

Thanks, Dr. Ehrman for exposing us to the work of another of your very impressive colleagues. This was super interesting.

[@davidk7529]

My parents didn’t gloss over _any_ of the violence in our daily devotions for homeschool. Our family’s doctrine fully embraced the sadistic nature of their god toward anyone and everyone who dares to even _consider_ defying him, and there was no restraint about informing us children of all the details in order to establish an absolute, unshakable fear that would keep us in obedience to parental authority.

[@thetopface]

Same. My dad believed that hurricane Katrina was YHWH punishing New Orleans.

[@hemiolaguy]

I'm so sorry for you!

[@Tina06019]

Gruesome, eh?

[@MrYoko101]

Sounds like growing kids god’s way

[@vadim666er]

All I know is if there were topless women at church I’d still be going there every week

[@judithsmith9582]

I recently met a Baptist who did not realize they were Protestant.

[@thetopface]

lol yeah. When I was a kid, I had to explain to my older cousin (family of Baptists) who was/is a teacher that Catholics are Christians. She didn’t think they were like “bad” or “false” Christians, but that they didn’t even consider themselves to be Christians.

[@melanieahrens6739]

@@thetopfaceI’ve noticed lately that “Christian” seems to be a synonym for “Protestant” to a lot of evangelicals.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Many Baptists consider themselves non-protestant.

[@voidagent]

Most "christians" don't even know what the word "christian" means. They will say what they think it means but it will be wrong.

[@MrDalisclock]

The discussion of evangelicals trying to rescue god from the atrocities such as the Canaanite genocide reminds me of William Lane Craig just going on about Divine Command Theory and per that standard anything god does is defacto good because God is inherently good. Which is consistent yet horrifying.

[@normative]

It's not consistent, it's meaningless. If you simply DEFINE good as "what God commands and does" then ascribing goodness to God loses any independent force. It's like saying a piano must be in tune because I've defined "in tune" to mean whatever the current state of the piano is.

[@MrDalisclock]

@@normative I agree it renders the idea of morality pretty meaningless if literally "Good is whatever God says it is" especially when people like WLC claim to believe in objective morality at the same time and conflate it with divine command theory

[@michaelhenry1763]

It reminds me of the Supreme Court

[@axellludvic3490]

Thankfully Israelites were a subset of the larger Canaanite population. This doesn't negate the horrific stories of the bible.

[@IkarusKommt]

A child cannot understand an adult, and a soldier cannot understand an officer. Why should that be any different with God?

[@kimojolly5101]

To me, what is amazing about the bible is how consistently useful it has been for politicians during the past 2000 years, and ESPECIALLY most recently. I think it is very important for you to teach us HOW the bible was constructed (misquoting jesus) but also this latest piece on HOW the bible is utilized by white usa evangelicals (the good book). If the bible can help walk Trump into power, that will be quite the dubious feather in its cap.

[@garyluciani1082]

Not from their perspective. For them it's a wonderful feather in the cap.

[@thorpeaaron1110]

Jericho is the Achilles Heel for any Christian because you can't justify the killing of innocent civilians.

[@John.Flower.Productions]

Why would _the killing of innocent civilians_ need to be justified outside of the reason given in the text?

[@MrDalisclock]

I'd argue numbers 31 or 2 Samuel 24 are arguably worse.

[@Bob94390]

Yes, Jericho is one of many Achilles Heels. There are large numbers of cases where the biblical God of Murder slaughtered innocent people. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioSugZ6miatkpNU

[@chrisstathe9183]

Today the elect bring the gospel in the hope it saves from the judgement all deserve and those destroyed in the ot are a example of those that are judged for their wickedness which they have from birth.

[@John.Flower.Productions]

@@MrDalisclock If 2 Samuel 24, why not 1 Chronicles 21? It is the same story.

[@jacobsutton9528]

Now I gotta go listen to “the good book” by Tim Minchin.

[@stevebeeney9022]

Thanks for the tip. I've only heard his song "Ginger."

[@mikeharrison1868]

Highly commended!

[@mikeharrison1868]

​@stevebeeney9022 worth seeking out everything he's done. A ton of great stuff, much of it hilarious.

[@multiversogeek142]

And Thank You Jesus

[@amypieterse4127]

I was just thinking that

[@anthonycraig274]

Unless you want to indoctrinate children, why would anyone want to tell a child such an awful story and basically lying about it.

[@jasonGamesMaster]

Because they ARE indoctrinating kids... there is no concern not to, it's the whole plan

[@Ulyssestnt]

Huh?you sure you are in the right comment section here bud?

[@geraldineclarke5434]

Exactly!

[@geraldineclarke5434]

My comment was on the original statement not the reply,

[@hannahstraining7476]

My question, too. Turning the Walls of Jericho into a talking-vegetable cartoon in which no one dies is beyond twisting the textout of all comprehension. Why do they teach it at all?

[@aek03030731]

I also am addicted to alliteration (and assonance, as you can assertain) but I never attributed it to my Baptist upbringing. Would you say that Baptist preachers are Bible Benevolence Barkers?

[@alanhilder1883]

The alliteration I know came from the Monty Python sketch called Bells.

[@charlesbrowne9590]

You sent me to the dictionary. I’ve ascertained your assonance.

[@greaterthan5054]

I really enjoyed the interview, but I must say that the “some feminists are really misogynists” made me uncomfortable. Someone says “I’m the gatekeeper, I decide the quality and content of what you are thinking.” It’s a good and relevant point that someone may not know how their views were influenced, but it just feels a bit too much “no true Scottish person.”

[@SpaveFrostKing]

I think the point was that they're both feminists and misogynists, rather than them being misogynists instead of feminists.

[@hannahstraining7476]

I think her point is that there are a lot of pseudo-feminists like Kathleen Parker and Megan McCardle who claim to be feminists but continually justify the patriarchal status quo in their opinion columns.

[@greaterthan5054]

@@hannahstraining7476 Thank you for the information. I'm not well read, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I could not find an instance where these two women have ever claimed to be feminists. Kathleen Parker wrote a book called "Save the Males," so clearly not a feminist. Megan McCardle described herself as a "right-leaning libertarian" and she mainly focuses on business and technology in her writing and career.

[@jamesmccarthy3198]

That part of her interview made me undcomfortable too.

[@moodyonroody5313]

yup - and I say that as a feminist if feminist means being fair to and appreciatimg persons without penises especially children ... at a time when some feminists believe in trans people destroying girls' and womens' dignity and safety. ... and lesbians and gay men .... Or maybe I'm a femalist?

[@hissupremecorrectfulnessre9478]

I don't even grant that the Bible is good fiction.

[@Snick3927]

Yes, as a child, I could see that bible stories were not at all strong. As an English professor, I know a weak-themed, poorly constructed narrative when I see one.

[@robertunderwood1011]

If I didn’t know that Tolkien himself said that Lord of the rings was pure fiction and not allegory, I would be willing to accept it as Devine Scripture equivalent in moral power and guidance to the Mahabharata. In fact, I prefer it to the Bible But I also got to give credit where credit is due It was really religious genius to transfer from the idea of making sacrifices to God to the idea of God, making One great sacrifice for us. I still don’t believe it But I admire it

[@LordMerlic]

Not only is Bart an exceptional author, but quite proficient as a host and moderator.

[@PlusDeltaM]

One thing is for sure, Dr. Jill has excellent taste in jazz!

[@alexanderweddle3948]

Pour une raison inconnue, tout à coup il fallait que j’écoute la composition “Ascenseur Pour L’échafaud” par Miles Davis.

[@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh]

hi editor, there is a section around 37:40 that I think was meant to be cut from the episode

[@Sean-oy8xm]

The justification for the terror in the Bible is the old “Us vs Them” mentality. The “evil” people got justice for being evil.

[@stephenarmiger8343]

Good stuff! Jill, Roman Catholics are not your intended readers, but, having been baptized into that sect, limiting clergy to unmarried men and unmarried women was particularly harmful for me growing up. I so much enjoy Biblical Scholarship in contrast to dogma. I so much enjoy reading the Bible as human culture. I very much enjoyed reading Why We Believe in gods by J. Anderson Thompson. We create them and then worship our creations. Children create imaginary friends, but eventually outgrow them. I have outgrown imaginary beings. I still enjoy reading the Iliad. Stories about Heracles, Perseus, Theseus, Athena. But I don’t slay oxen and offer burnt offerings.

[@Sxcheschka]

Imaginary Friends aren't always outgrown, and in fact, it's perfectly fine for people to have them into their adulthood. I have conjured my own Tulpa who is also my wife and we care about each other very much. For so long as you understand what it is, and not let yourself be controlled by the thoughtform, you are fine, just as anybody else with supernatural beliefs.

[@robbabcock_]

Thanks for a fascinating interview!

[@kjmav10135]

The evangelical feminist thing has been around since the late 60s. The late Letha Scanzoni was one of the early pioneers of evangelical feminism. It was a thing for a while. There was a magazine (a zine, really) called Daughters of Sarah back in the day. And, oh my God, I knew Scot McNight! It is so weird to listen to this and hear all these names when I actually paid attention to all this stuff!

[@Karenonflute]

I started reading the Bible critically a few months ago and the last thing I would call it is a “good book”. The God of the Bible condones everything from genocide to incest - not exactly my idea of “good”! I can’t think that humans 2000-3000 years ago condoned these things either!

[@John.Flower.Productions]

Where in The Bible is incest not condemned, let alone condoned? Your idea of good is nothing more than that, your idea.

[@Karenonflute]

Ever read about Lot and his daughters? That would be a start. How about Abraham and his sister Sarah? Not to mention the times uncles marry their nieces, et al! Perhaps you should actually READ that book!

[@Bob94390]

@@John.Flower.Productions The Fable has MANY cases of incest, most of the time without any negative comment. If "Adam" and "Eve" were the first people, how could their children NOT be incestuous and still have children? When "God" murdered all people on earth except one family, how could that family NOT be incestuous and still have children? Abraham's brother Nahor married his niece Milcah, the daughter of his other brother Haran. Abraham's son Isaac married Rebekah, his first cousin once removed. Isaac and Rebekah's firstborn son Esau married his cousin Mahalath. Isaac and Rebekah's second son Jacob married his cousins Leah and Rachel, who were daughters of his mother's brother Laban. Leah and Rachel were sisters. Jacob's firstborn son Reuben had sex with his father's concubine Bilhah. And so on.

[@avalokitesvara4092]

​@@Karenonflute The Lot episode is not presented in a positive light. The Bible generally condemns incest - although incestuous relationships are presented. Clearly, the ancient Hebrews approved of genocide and all the rest, since they bragged about it.

[@Karenonflute]

@@avalokitesvara4092. I am not sure actual Hebrews condoned any of this. It is only my opinion, but it seems to me that the Bible was written by elites for elites to justify their behavior, and does not really apply to the average people living in the Levant at that time. Being powerless, they just had to go along for the ride. After all, elites have never had a problem marrying close blood relatives in order to keep power in their immediate families (think Hapsburgs and Queen Victoria and Albert and who she married off her children to). And way too many powerful leaders have used genocide to solve their problems.

[@susandougherty9673]

Great interview, I really enjoyed this guest.

[@BigHairyCrank]

Great interview/conversation.

[@mikeoveli1028]

Great interview. I love leaning about the Bible. I never went to church as a child, but I have been sorounded by theology from culture. I got enough to feel guilty about everything but never got the redemption.🙄

[@jesse6344]

Great interview! I found the research done by Hicks-Keeton thoughtful and enlightening. I’m going to buy the book for my daughter.

[@kjmav10135]

Phyllis Trible’s Texts of Terror is a great book. I can see how what this author is saying relates to what Trible had to say. I’m going to love this book!

[@robertmarshall1367]

I suspect that what's happening in Gaza today is a shocking echo of the book of Joshua 49:22

[@Owain_Lord_Of_Glyndyfrdwy]

I really don't understand where the "white" part comes in. What is that supposed to mean? Or is it just a pejorative now?

[@iananderson1901]

I found that interesting as well. Do others teach a different way? It hurts the argument because it seems like it comes from a place of racism

[@Rob-lw1uw]

@@iananderson1901I feel it was just an angle to sell more books. She was basically unknown to the public and needed a hook.

[@colin_mockery]

I had this thought too...I personally have the perspective of having been raised in a majority white baptist church, but i hear plenty of the same arguments from other churches/believers of other races.

[@AwesomeIsCea]

@@theCarbonFreeze She addressed around 44:00 that many groups are doing it, and that she’s specifying white evangelicals as an example. So good job not listening.

[@Owain_Lord_Of_Glyndyfrdwy]

@@AwesomeIsCea Yeah, I wrote the comment before that point. But it's ridiculous. She could have said "red head evangelical" at that point. She chose "white" because it is perceived as a pejorative. Only to Americans this doesn't sound weird.

[@Flapperjaw]

As a nutritionist I appreciate you promoting vegetables to children , even if you do try using religion to reach that end . 23:27

[@hiddenfact5950]

If God has given a Devin book it should have what God wants from humans not just believing on God.

[@tulpas93]

Thanks, you two! ❤❤

[@ZodiacBoi42]

I really find this interesting, I was raised Baptist too and it’s weird to think back on the violence I was taught as a small child. And how many problems that can cause. I’ll definitely be reading her book, I’m sure I’ll learn a lot.

[@pazley612]

Awesome podcast guest and topic! Please invite her again to talk about other similar topics she covers.

[@raycaster4398]

I've read from 'the Good Book' just this morning! Darwin's 'On The Origin of Species,' the most important book EVER.

[@bradrcool]

Awesome! but dang that's a dense morning read

[@bubbles581]

Oh gosh this is why some Christians think atheists hold Darwin as scripture....

[@raycaster4398]

@@bubbles581 A jest. No. No scientific faith, creed, scirpture or Grand Poobah.

[@davidk7529]

Don’t lean into that one… Darwin was merely a pioneer of the field, though an important one. Always emphasize progress toward more accurate science.

[@MH55YT]

Thank you Jill for contributing. I watch all of Bart's podcasts and re-watch many of them again. Your insight was inspiring and helpful. I'll put your book on my reading list. As I am old, I need to wait until you publish it as an audio book. You are far younger than Bart so I don't understand how you could have been in the same class at Duke? Were you one of his students/

[@VladfishTheMagnificent]

I'm reading through the Bible now, and I keep asking, "Why does this supposedly benevolent God condone slavery? If we are all made in His image and likeness, how utterly depraved is this idea of one human being owning another?"

[@moodyonroody5313]

guess what, the context was when slavery was worldwide .... so yes.

[@Pop-wn3il]

Thanks. Great discussion!

[@FCDFansChannel]

Great pod yall

[@rhondah1587]

I find trying to shove ancient middle eastern Bronze Age culture into modern day culture is so contrary to the progress of humanity towards a truly cohesive and accepting of human differences type of society that the modern world needs. We need to put all those ancient writings from all the religions into the category of ancient mythologies that are historical and can teach us how people thought and lived back when humanity was a lot less informed about the world we live in. We can learn how far humanity has come from such destructive ideas and promote more humanism and the fact that all we have to lean on in this world is each other.

[@chipnewtonguitarmusic546]

Kudos to Jill for having a Miles Davis jazz record on the wall behind her!

[@dbarker7794]

Good eye! Looks like it might be the score for the movie Elevator to the Gallows.

[@chipnewtonguitarmusic546]

@@dbarker7794 yes! That was the recording that he apparently hit on the idea of modal jazz...using simple melodic scales as a basis for improvisation.

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

Props to anyone who likes Miles Davis. Or anyone who still loves jazz.

[@earlinefontenette5727]

It is a must read. Parents should have their children read the bible from Genesis through revelations as soon as they reach the point of higher understanding and allow them to compare what they have read for themselves with what they have been told.

[@moodyonroody5313]

I never got over the Abraham sacrificing Isaac test but as for Christianity, what about 'I come with a sword' and what about the fact that Jesus relied on a rich woman ... and what about that he didn't marry ... and what about he said 'No one comes to the father except through me', condemning most of the world population to Hades/ Hell? And Paul said it was better to burn than marry, or something like that?

[@sos1691]

That bible is oh so cleverly put together and the greatest deception ever foisted upon mankind, if not cleverly unpacked. Your guest is unpacking psychotic head-spinning.

[@Mike-jl1rl]

Great conversation!

[@thierryf2789]

What is interesting is that she does exactly what she is criticizing the evangelists for, for instance by changing the definition of misogyny.

[@StamfordBridge]

A desperate attempt at a rejoinder. She does nothing of the kind.

[@thierryf2789]

@@StamfordBridge Of course she does. Your gaslighting is rather desperate.

[@Valdagast]

Thought: If you need to do a lot of work to make a text 'good', it's not really a 'good' text. (scare quotes, because of course a text is not 'good' or 'evil' in itself).

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

At 13:05. When I used to teach adult Sunday school at church we spent and entire year on the Old Testament followed by a year on the New Testament. When we got to the violent parts in the OT against targeted groups, one lesson a student asked if this was a case of genocide. I replied it certainly was, if we use a current day definition of genocide. Not every Christian wants to accept these inconvenient parts of the Bible. I think societies were radically different. People approached every aspect of life differently than today. Marriages were often arranged, violence was a common occurrence, slavery was common in some contexts, social class kept many people in a lifetime of poverty, and changing one's life was very difficult. I try to bring out lessons that God wants Christians to hear. Why is the Bible relevant for today? How do we learn more about ourselves when we follow God? How can we become better people by following Christ's teachings?

[@rboland2173]

So society has changed over the centuries - I get that. But allegedly (paraphrasing) "God's character is never changing. It is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow". So just because society was violent, unfair & barbaric when the Bible was written then God should be violent, unfair & barbaric? 🤨Or perhaps the Bible was conceived & written entirely by humans who make the character of God just like they are, except with superpowers. Any thoughts?

[@BenSolomonIM]

The thing is this, if this book (collection of books) is really talking about God, the creator of the universe, we wouldn't have genocides, slavery and him being defeated in battle due to the opposition having 'iron chariots'. We would have had guidance from the beginning that genocide, war, slavery and other things are wrong, and outlawed, which it is not. We have created 'god' in our image, based on what we can read in all religious texts...

[@unme4728]

It really is one of the tragedies of history that the OT was incorporated into the Christian Bible. From what I understand, this was done to provide legitimacy to Roman authorities that Christianity was not just some newfangled cult. The damage done by this over the millennia has been horrific.

[@unme4728]

@@rboland2173 the God of the OT is not the God Jesus prayed to and called "Abba." One of the tragedies of human history that the OT was incorporated into the Christian Bible (imo).

[@rboland2173]

@@unme4728 Interesting! I have never heard the theory that Jesus prayed to any god other than Yahweh, since the accepted consensus is that Jesus was a Jew, ergo he would pray to Yahweh and follow Judaism - except of course Jesus put his own spin on Judaism.

[@LewisCoxIII]

"The Bible is not an acient thing. It is a modern concept that is dealing with antiquity, thinking about antiquity, using texts that originated in antiquity, but Bible as people are using it now, that's a modern thing that they have made."

[@iananderson1901]

One editing point. Her voice was much louder than his so had to keep adjusting volume. Normally I end up getting Ehrman by osmosis

[@CurtW1962]

Can Satan create human bodies? And if he can't then how can he torture people that don't have bodies? Does God give people bodies so they can be tortured for eternity? And what crimes could possibly exist that warrant that punishment?

[@manuelarat7022]

Great people, great interview!

[@Chuck-se5hh]

Thank you for showing that the Bible really does need an awful lot of help to look good.

[@of9490]

I can i get this book on audible please 🙏

[@battlerushiromiya651]

I wonder why white evangelicals are taken as normative of how christianity and the Bible should be read and understood. Rarely do you hear a book on how catholics, lutherans or even episcopalis deal with the bad parts of the Bible. Maybe becauee they are more honest about interpretation of interpretations on ideas( and not even the written text.) In the Bible are what constitute and drive their faith?

[@Cole205]

Because W.E.s are the burden-beasts of political Zionism. So they're also the fall guy. Or.. Fall Goy! 😂😅

[@John.Flower.Productions]

_Maybe becauee they are more honest about interpretation of interpretations on ideas( and not even the written text.)_ If that was not an attempt at being funny, let me know and I will explain it to you.

[@battlerushiromiya651]

@@John.Flower.Productions Please explain.

[@schmidtcs]

Non-evangelical Christian’s are less likely to see the Bible as literal or inerrant, so it’s not such a problem I’m guessing.

[@John.Flower.Productions]

@@battlerushiromiya651 Only people who actually believe what they claim to believe are open to judgement/condemnation/persecution/ridicule/et cetera. Catholics/Shiites/Unitarians/Et cetera will accept anything over their professed beliefs; therefore they are of no consequence to any form/system of societal control.

[@simonbattle0001]

Thank you Jill Hicks-Keeton and of course you Doc Bart. Just a couple of thoughts though this interview leaves the viewer with at least a hundred. The first thing that came to me is an old thing. That being how someone who claims to have faith in this being they call god and knowing full well it's rules and regulations and the penalties for breaking any of those are, and yet will lie, corrupt and truncate this god's words and historical record without fear of consequence tells me that they do not believe a word of it. The other thing is my remembering of arguing with priest and "preachers" that the words on the pages have nothing to do with what the religious leader was saying it meant. Or being told I was not in "the spirit/holy ghost or I was evil and or rebellious and that was why I could not see it there way. Before I left religion behind I learned at last the secret to being a good christian or Catholic in the United States was "go along to get along." That is when it hit me that something I cared for very deeply was a fraud. It couldn't be true if it was built on lies along with a heavy dose of conjector steeped in Hocus Pocus.

[@dbarker7794]

The book sounds interesting but why does she refer only to "white" evangelicals? Do white evangelicals nterpret the Bible differently than black or Hispanic evangelicals? That hasn't been my experience.

[@michaelhenry1763]

She says why at the end of the podcast.

[@Arven8]

Because it sells books. Criticizing white people is a cottage industry.

[@moodyonroody5313]

Yes I agree - in UK biggest church-goers are Black evangelicals. I think she's dealing with USA only.

[@scyldscefing3913]

Fascinating.

[@johnthekeane]

Or... When intellectuals go apologist.

[@MisterNiles]

Now I have a damn The Artist Formerly Known as Johnny, John, The Cougar, Juanifred The French Fry Farmer Mellencamp song stuck in my head.

[@ktownjunkie]

What makes white evangelicals stand apart from all other evangelical christians?

[@Cole205]

Because it's politically and socially acceptable to scapegoat Whites even though the O.T. is J-ish myth, used today for J-ish geopolitics! 😂😅

[@endlesskev]

Access to power

[@Cole205]

@@endlesskev tell us, what power do White Evangelicals ever gain, that isn't actually J-ish Israeli power?

[@kentonnur]

So the millions of Fundementalist, Pentecostal black evangelicals in Africa, US , England, etc are immune from treating the ‘Good Book ,in a self serving way ?

[@Mac_an_Mheiriceanaigh]

At the end of the episode they discuss this. She clarifies that she only engages with certain white evangelical authors for this book, but that other Christian groups, including other evangelical Christians, would likely be similar in some, if not all, ways

[@williambrooks9548]

The basic bible teaching that God created the world that means He is responsible for a world in which everyone comes to die in unlimited ways. If God is all loving then the world was not created by Him. This is explained in the Course in Miracles & Disappearance of the University. I have studied both for 45 yrs and the healing of my mind & relationships is beyond works.

[@ArtieThomas]

The best part of the Veggie Tales version is the parody of Monty Python and the Holy Grail with the French peas on the wall. Unfortunately as to the biblical writers is their general lack of humor (Jonah excepting).

[@kjmav10135]

Jonah is hilarious!

[@Bjorn_Algiz]

Hail! ❤ and hope all are tuning in and learning from all sources all around the world of our species 😊 love our history as a human species hehehe 😉

[@cynthiao.543]

I’m doing a “read the Bible in a year” program; I’m on day 97. Most of the Old Testament is new to me. And I really dislike what I’m reading. …so weird and full of horrible things….I heard Bart say one time, when asked if he believes in God…”you mean the god of the Old Testament, the Jewish god? No, I don’t”…..my sentiments exactly. Former Christian , current agnostic. The proof just isn’t there.

[@artawhirler]

I'm an ex-Christian (so I know the Bible) and one time a Christian that I know (one of these typical "white evangelical" guys) was trying to shove his religion BACK down my throat, years after I had already spit it out. I looked this dude straight in the eye and told him that he was gonna spend the rest of his life making excuses for his God. He was strangely quiet for a minute; I don't think he had ever heard that before.

[@sekovittol3124]

The violation of logical thinking begins to overpower religious thinking.

[@thain1982]

I love the comment "I don't think egalitarianism is accomplishing what it thinks it's accomplishing." Almost every time I see someone label themselves as egalitarian, it is to argue against reparative or restorative justice, so I've almost come to think of the modern label as a deliberate distraction.

[@merbst]

21:25 "well, I think its all Patriarchy!" this was so charmingly said that I am going to bookmark this video & this section of the video in particular for citing in future arguments about biblical feminism!

[@jeffkunce8501]

"Scripture" - that repeated term should be qualified as "white evangelical definition of scripture." There are christians who use the term "scripture," without the implications of inerrancy, nor documentary history, nor as a law book, nor even as a moral code. It is scripture because it has a foundational place in christianity and has stuck around for years. Scripture is a deep source for learning about morality over the millennia - both the good and the bad. But, especially how our understanding changes over time. Even, how it will continue to change in the future. Biblical scholarship is a huge part of that process, so keep up the good work!

[@moodyonroody5313]

not necessarily white ... Moses married a Black woman didn't he? And anyway who cared about race at that time .... not that white racists didn't use the bible to justify Black slavery.

[@mayito9100]

At minute 5:21 Jill claims that in Mark chapter 5 you can find the story of the Greek woman seeking healing for her daughter. I would love for Jill to show me where in chapter 5 she reads that story. I was not able to find it.

[@cindybidwellglaze7698]

I know it's in Matthew 15, but don't see it in Mark, yet. I'll search.

[@DougPlummer-tc5ew]

Oh no she made a mistake. Blasphemous!

[@Tanthyl]

Mark 7 and Matthew 15, I looked it up

[@annemariededekind6271]

Wonderful. Thank you

[@mzmscoyote]

The troubles in Israel prompted me to recall the Bible stories about the ancient Hebrews (say, the conquest of Canaan) and concluded that anyone who has read this book cannot claimed to be surprised by how those folks are treating each other.

[@dahveed72]

"Those folks", extrapolated, is everyone basically

[@jamesmccarthy3198]

This author laughs way too much; it makes what she says seem silly, trivial and inconsequential. She appears to think that everything she says is a joke and in so doing she isn't giving herself credit because she's making some good points.

[@StamfordBridge]

Bart is setting a light-hearted, conversational tone, and she is responding, as if she is talking with a friend. Academics talking with each other in a relaxed atmosphere will often strike up a humorous tone. It doesn’t mean they take their ideas less seriously.

[@feuergeboren5750]

Sounds like an intriguing book. I am not a believer but have to say, her take on the Syrophoenician women came off as somewhat biased. A plane reading of the account does not seem to imply Jesus was calling her a "b!tch". The juxtaposition was between israelite and non-israelite, not men and women.

[@inmyleftmindinmyleftmind6337]

It was troubling to me that someone who says that we should take note of the actual words used in the interaction between Jesus and women then goes on to ignore the actual words used in an interaction between Jesus and a woman.

[@clawedsimian]

Interesting question whether bias against gentiles or against women was more controlling in the narrative as written. My opinion is that the religious/ethnic conflict was the active one at the time, whereas every local culture was patriarchal; that's so baked in it's a settled assumption not worthy of consideration and not an issue the text means to raise. but we can raise it now.

[@michaeldeangelo7986]

Yeah, while she has good points generally, bits of the tenor show her obvious bias. As a result, her arguments weaken just a bit. Her explanation about singling out "White" evangelicals in relation to Trump's election betray her political bent. And as you stated above, the whole interaction between Jesus and the woman was misinterpreted by her as gender bias, not the Gentile/Jew prejudice that it actually was.

[@Ryan90red]

@@michaeldeangelo7986 You are completely leaving out that this is brought up in reguard to other positions that try to massage the text into a particualr meaning. She isnt adding context, she is making the point that it is even this more explicit reading that fails the egalitarian attempt to make the text morally righteous. You are not following the position the speaker is making. She is pointing out there are modern efforts to make the writing ethical in a modern way which are just as bad for understanding the writing as the fundamentalists that also want the writing to mean certain things they preconceive.

[@alexanderwestphal9777]

@@notanemoprog dude the point is about how modern people try to say that the syrophoenician woman was an example to show the bible empowers women. so if you read it that way, that is the connotation and it doesnt work

[@kariel6967]

hi, I’m from Germany. What u think about Paul d. Wegner?

[@ciciKoenig]

Not a Bible scholar here but I listen to Prof Ehrman regularly. I'm guessing that whoever wrote the Bible was not a fan of the Canaanites because they worshipped Ba'al and practiced child sacrifice (eg Jeremiah 19:5) Don't know when/if ever it's appropriate to explain that to children. What struck me about the discussion in this interview was the real difference in level of scholarship. Prof Ehrman is a brilliant scholar who questions everything. His guest (imo) appears to have left one cult (White Evangelicals, as she deems them) only to embrace another (Feminist Theory?) that looks for and finds misogyny lurking in every direction. Thought I don't know if he feels the same way, Ehrman questions her gently and politely asking her to explain her terms. I wasn't familiar with the story of the woman who asks Jesus to heal her daughter, but it turns out that she is a Canaanite. Given Jesus' strong feelings about protecting children, I'm not surprised he'd test someone who possibly worships Ba'al. She passes the test, and Jesus heals her daughter. This doesn't seem like misogyny to me, by any stretch of the imagination. As Ehrman and others of his ilk age and are eventually replaced by academics practicing these scholarships of misery, I feel sorry for young people facing that intellectual impoverishment.

[@brianeibisch6025]

Lucky for the people of Jericho, archaeologists tell us that by the time Joshua turned up, if he ever turned up, nobody had lived in Jericho for about three hundred years. So, seems like Bible writers might have more violent imaginations in their stories than God Himself. Cheers

[@scottschoen3362]

Quite sometime ago I sent you a book. Did you get it, read it? It's called 'I Am is Inside Out'. Its approach of sacred knowledge and passages are referring to inner experiences and provide different understandings. I've written it as fiction so inner knowledge blended in is relatable, accessible and experientially self validating.

[@mikeharrison1868]

I wonder how we'd regard it if the canon had been assembled in the late 200s, but Constantine, the Byzantines and the Sassanids had succeeded in completely wiping christianity out, instead of Constantibe converting - and the it was only rediscovered 50 years ago.

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@thomasfarrow7053]

interesting discussion - Jill Hicks-Keeton is very engaging !

[@MATTIASALM]

I can't find the passage about the "dog woman" in Mark 5. Am I hearing her wrong, there?

[@chefchaudard3580]

It’s actually Mark 7 24-30

[@BenSolomonIM]

@@notanemoprog, why? because she can't remember where each verse is? 🤦‍♂

[@MATTIASALM]

​@@chefchaudard3580 thanks! I guess the "bread" is Jesus' teachings and blessings, the "children" are the jews, and the "dogs" are the gentiles.

[@Actuary1776]

I’m calling bullshit on her explanation of focusing on white evangelicals. She uses the term a dozen times throughout the conversation and never once attempts to explain why she’s doing it. Only at the end when confronted specifically on it does she offer up her reasoning. God help the kids in her class.

[@dr8576]

Pairing "white" with "evil" scores big brownie points in modern discourse. Do black Christians not use the same arguments to defend biblical atrocity? The Bible doesn't square with modern feminism? No shit!

[@Arven8]

She is using "white" in the title of her book to attract accolades from her peer group (liberal academics, steeped in identity politics, "white men are bad,") and to sell books (because criticizing white people is popular). It's transparent and kind of repellant.

[@arthurmcculloch1470]

I'm interested in where the idea that the bible is the 'word of god' came from, along with where the idea that god speaks thru a text came from. A really engaging video. I would have liked a bit af the natural history of 'goodness' as well.

[@BobPearson-zr1mi]

Everything is what we make of it, including the Bible.

[@geico1975]

Well, in my opinion, and from this conversation Jill Hicks-Keeton's "Good Book" answers an important question. Why has the Bible been the most and best selling book since forever? Because if one gets 'two or three' agreeing on a specific interpretation of scriptures, well then, Abracadabra BOOM! Another denomination and God lives:) LOL!

[@BookHen-xn2bh]

I have a friend who has never cut her hair in her life based on the passage by Paul.

[@VenusLover17]

Beautiful ❤ thanks

[@ZwelithiniGama]

Bart please do a session on the origins of easters and Christmas one day

[@schmidtcs]

Religion for Breakfast has some great videos on that topic.

[@eddiezanryder]

@@schmidtcs love that channel

[@tropakillviking666]

It won’t be what you think it is. It’s not all pagan origins

[@tropakillviking666]

@@schmidtcsgreat idea!

[@chrismorris1357]

This was so great! Awesome guest.

[@charlesnunno8377]

I think there is good in what she is trying to say, "We shouldn't just read into things the "good" we want to see in it." That's fine. But then she says absurd things like, " What does Jesus value women for? " WHY should this be the question? This is like asking a boy on a first date, "WOULD YOU STILL LOVE ME .... if I wasn't female, attractive or young, would you love me if I was a DOG, OLD and UGLY?" It's a dumb question. I can only VALUE a woman for BEING a woman. I can't value a dog the same way. Sorry. Love isn't equal.

[@thescoobymike]

This is my first time hearing of her. I hope she does more interviews in the podcast circuit.

[@melaniephillips4238]

Excellent discussion, and I can't wait to get Professor Hicks-Keeton's book! In all the years I was in church, sometimes 3 times a week, I never remember hearing a sermon on the confrontation of Jesus and the Syrophoenician woman. I know I heard quite a few about Jesus and the Roman Centurion asking for his aid, though, and Jesus didn't call HIM a dog! Also, when she first asks Jesus for help, he just ignores her. I would love to hear the "Benevolence project " a pastor would have to undertake to make it okay that Jesus responded that way. And another interesting item -- in the NIV Bible, the translators/compilers call her a "Canaanite woman" -- seems like they're making her an enemy trying to justify Jesus' responses maybe? Goes to show that the Benevolence project concept probably influences how many pastors deliberately cherry-pick their topics for sermons. BTW -- I was looking the story up to follow along, and it's actually in Mark, chapter 7, not chapter 5, and it's repeated in Matthew 15. Thanks for a great video!

[@hurdygurdyguy1]

I've also heard the Apologist line that Jesus was going to grant her her daughter's healing but used the incident as a "teaching moment" to show he really did come to save Everyone...🤔

[@melaniephillips4238]

@@hurdygurdyguy1 Yeah, really does make you go "h-m-m", right?🤔 i can't see the teaching power of either igoring a heartfelt request or what feels like cruel disdain. Another apologist having to make a pretzel of logic to make the situation seem less...awful. It does seem unusual for Jesus, though; he was much kinder to the Samaritan woman at the well, despite her supposed past. Maybe it was because she was at least descended from Israelites?

[@ritawing1064]

Shades of the late, great Hector Avalos, QEPD.

[@fred321cba]

So if she had been studying black evangelicals, I'm sure her book would be subtitled "How Black Evangelicals Save the Bible to Save Themselves".

[@jetpackman01]

Just wanted to make a quick comment, the story of Jesus healing the syrophoenician woman's daughter is in Mark 7, not Mark 5. Also the fact Jill says there are no books in the ancient world that don't uphold patriarchal society. What about the Secret Book of John or the Gospel of Mary?

[@jetpackman01]

@@notanemoprogI don't believe she's necessarily a grifter, it's just that she didn't come to Bart's podcast as well informed as she should have been.

[@Venaloid]

10:15 - I distinctly remember the purple slushies in that veggie tales episode, and they did bring up how anachronistic that is in the episode, but I forget what kind of lame excuse they gave for going with it anyway.

[@breadfan7433]

Thank you Jill and Bart for such an interesting conversation.