Is the problem that some Star Wars fans don’t understand or care about the "story" of Star Wars?

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[@WaddelingProductions]

Could be me but I’ve noticed that many of the post-Disney Star Wars seem to care only for spectacle and the name, rather than the world and lore itself

[@Thed538dhsk]

Because imo the world and lore is a mess

[@AndreNitroX]

Exactly other than animated shows made by Dave filoni, none of Disney Star Wars has contributed to the lore of the Star Wars universe

[@Redrgon25]

I agree with your assessment regarding the post Disney fandom, but I disagree that the pre Disney fandom care about the lore and world. Many of them don't even understand or know the lore. We all see SW as we want it.

[@Thed538dhsk]

@@Redrgon25 then how does the fandom even exist if everyone is viewing so differently? I despise the prequel films. Other love them more than the OT. How can we both call ourselves star wars fans at that point when we like different parts of star wars so much? If you only like EP 1-6 but hate EP 7-9 how can you be a fan while at the same time someone likes EP 1-9? At some point the fandom is too big AND TOO DIVERSE and can't please everyone.

[@Redrgon25]

@@Thed538dhsk Because all of it is still SW.

[@cj3xps]

James Luceno's writing is borderline genius in this book. He melds so many Prequel stories and makes the Prequels themselves make sense! It's a perfect "bad guy" story

[@vetarlittorf1807]

Borderline? It IS genius.

[@ariesstorm9577]

This and the Darth Bane trilogy are my most listened to books on audible. There’s just something so compelling about hearing a story from the point of view of the “bad guy” Honestly James Luceno is the only author I would trust to write a novel about Dooku, as a sort of sequel to the Darth Plagueis novel. And while it’s not as good as Darth Plagueis, I really enjoyed the Tarkin novel that he wrote as part of the new canon.

[@MrTrancelator]

Literally the only writer (other than Frank Herbert) whose novel kept me awake until i realized that it's 5.00 AM in the morning.

[@saberiandream316]

It makes me mad he was forced to conform to TCW's retcons, though. DATHOMIR DOES NOT HAVE SPACEPORTS.

[@blackshogun272]

​@@saberiandream316 I didn't even know that. All I knew was that it was blockaded Post-RotS by Palpatine because he understood the potential danger of letting agents of the various Nightsister clans roam the galaxy.

[@PixelKatana]

I heard “what a nerd!” my entire childhood/early teens trying to correct casual fans from very incorrect understanding of the story/lore. My sad conclusion was that for the casual fan, Star Wars is just laser swords and telekinesis and that’s why they don’t get the outrage.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Pretty much. For them, the superficial stuff makes it Star Wars.

[@Pajo25ify]

This also depends on your definition of casual and even then it varies from person to person. For most "casuals" it's about the hero's journey, the characters, the action, and to a certain degree about the world building (even if it mostly is on the level of "hey cool world". Disney Star Wars is failing because the "casuals" get nothing out of it. No characters or character building, not a cool world and mostly really bad action.

[@mpnuorva]

Doubtful. The 6 films are stories in their own right that were made to not need Explanatory Universes. Legends is a separate universe that completely retcons a lot of the things the films imply for the purposes of some other story, so you basically have to tell them things aren't as they seem because Traviss or Karpyshyn or Anderson or someone else said so.

[@JoRoq1]

@@mpnuorva A large portion of the EU was created between the OT and PT (or during the PT) and so only had whichever existing movies were available at the time to provide a foundation. When Lucas made the active decision to create the prequels (and to pilot new technology with the OT Special Editions) in the 90s, he set a rule that new products (used to build up market recognition and expectation) would tell stories that fit together in a shared universe. (Marvel Star Wars and Splinter of the Mind’s Eye were considered as canon as the Holiday Special, and so were ignored.) Timothy Zahn was the launch point of the new Expanded Universe with the original Thrawn trilogy, years before Lucas overrode the presentation of cloning and the Clone Wars with AOTC, and the stories adapted after each new installment of the PT.

[@Thed538dhsk]

I feel it's the opposite. Those who just care about lightsabers hitting each other dislike the show. And those who understand the themes of the OT and the PT are fine with the show. Then a 3rd group of the lore masters are having brain aneurysms from this show

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

"You just have to hold on" George Lucas would never even have got the first Star Wars movie made if his pitch was "you've got to hold on for the next film and it'll be good then".

[@Thed538dhsk]

That's what the motto was for the first star wars film. He did tell the actors to hold on. A new hope or as it was originally called, Star Wars was saved in the edit

[@Lord-Emperor-Vader]

They had the script and knew what it would be going in they just didn’t know what it would look like because it is impossible to know what a finished film looks like. This is something that has been 90% bad so far so who cares if it has a good ending when the path to get there is awful.

[@AJadedLizard]

"Wait for it to pick up" is what I keep being told about TCW as well, and I just don't have the time to waste on art I don't enjoy.

[@Lord-Emperor-Vader]

@@AJadedLizard The thing with Clone Wars is you can skip episodes you don't like and watch the episodes you do like since there are only a few relevant arcs are the Maul's return (season 4 finale), Maul takes Mandalore (second to last are of season 4) Ahsoka is framed arc (season 5 finale), and the Clone Conspiracy arc (season 6 premier) are all you need to see to have season 7 finale make sense If you skip the first 5 episodes of the Acolyte then the last 3 will make no sense but if you skip the first two seasons of Clone Wars (what I am told are the weaker seasons but I love them all) seasons 3 to seven make total sense and what doesn't can easily be guessed since the only kind of relevant arc in there is the season 2 Mandalore arc which helps put later season events into greater context.

[@richardsylvester4518]

Yes someone certainly doesn't understand or care about star wars ... and it's the current writers.

[@Thed538dhsk]

Neither did Lucas

[@AndreNitroX]

It’s nothing personal but standards should be extremely high to become a writer in entertainment, because it seems to me they just hire any wannabe writer these days

[@Thed538dhsk]

@@AndreNitroX lots of nepotism and who you know but Hollywood has literally always been like this

[@ChrisPierce-y1r]

​@@Thed538dhskthats a dumb statement he understood it fully..he created it he is the only one that fully gets it cause it came from his mind and all the star wars he created made sense and went with each other unlike disney star wars your not ok in the head he may not be the best writer but he made the universe on which we all love ❤❤ so get it together

[@ChrisPierce-y1r]

​@@AndreNitroXthey hire activist not writers

[@onlyonestarwarsfan5337]

When I used to get into it with defenders of TLJ, every time I pointed out a nonsensical story turn or squandered potential, more times than not they would reply with “meh I don’t care about that” or “meh that’s not important”. It was grating as all Hades.

[@Thed538dhsk]

Why did it grate you?

[@Ihavethetouch]

​@@Thed538dhsk Because if the story doesn't follow the rules of the universe it's set in, it's a bad story. Just because you don't care about the plot holes doesn't mean they don't exist

[@Thed538dhsk]

@@Ihavethetouch I agree that just because you don't care about a plot hole doesn't it means it exists. But I think like a sith you are using an absolute. If someone dies care about a plot hole, it doesn't automatically mean they feel it does exist. It can simply mean what you said "YOU DON'T CARE" about the plot hole. In a new hope why doesn't obi try to use Jedi mind trick on Vader? That's a plot hole thats exists. People do 1 of 2 things about this plot hole. Option 1: ignore it. It doesn't matter to them and they don't care. It still exists but they just don't care. Option 2: Rationalize. People make up in their heads that it wouldn't have worked anyway and somehow obi knows this despite in the film that not being canon officially especially for the 20-ish years before a phantom menace was even made. So why does it bother you if someone simply doesn't care about a plot hole?

[@Ihavethetouch]

​@@Thed538dhskWhy would Obi-Wan try to use mindtrick on Vader? He used it on random stormtrooper and obviously Vader is above that. Or course I admit there are movies/games/etc where I'm too entertained to mind plot holes, but if someone points one out to me I'll admit it.

[@mrcat3493]

I’m tired of the “it’s from a book or comic” nonsense. I don’t care about the DLC content for Star Wars.

[@Loki_Yogi]

Thor, this breakdown of one of the core disagreements about this show is BY FAR the best one I've heard. I've been checking out other YT channels to see what both sides are saying and it's been pretty sad on both sides. I've been watching your videos since the beginning of the pandemic. You've been so consistent on what you believe Star Wars should be and so genuine with "calling balls & strikes" on every show Disney has given us fans. Your approach to the fandom is increasingly rare these days. Much appreciated. Keep up the good work. 🙏

[@AndreNitroX]

Yes this is why I love Thor. He feels genuine and doesn’t give in to the two extremes

[@charleshartley9597]

Agree 100% with you. Such a great summation of what I think SW is and should be, rather than the mixed up or wishy-washy morals the show seems to be suggesting, as Thor said. Lord I hope he is wrong, but I'm afraid he is right.

[@appletree13]

Agreed. I have a neutral opinion on the show, but it's nice to see someone breakdown it's core problems and why most fans dislike it. I think very few people would have issue with this show if it was set in any other sci-fi universe

[@pdexBigTeacher]

Your analysis helps me see how "The Acolyte" mirrors folks' morality today: "Because you won't let me do what I want, you are the one oppressing me, thus it's your fault I resort to violence-evil."

[@Hanoua2]

Yup its the "defund the police" generation

[@Thed538dhsk]

​@@Hanoua2wdym? The hippies back in the 1960's were for fighting the "man" or anti-authority and anti-police.

[@Thed538dhsk]

Isn't that just called self defense? If I stop you from posting your comment with force or violence don't you have a right to resist my attack with equal force or violence?

[@AndreNitroX]

Trying to justify negative behavior in fiction because it’s relatable in modern times is scary

[@davidfrederiksen3185]

This is literally a sith idea. If you are a being of pure passion then you would find any rules as a prison. Let's not forget that he is supposed to be a Villian in the story

[@Ihavethetouch]

If you don't love Star Wars for the universe but only because of things from our world, I dont think you really like Star Wars

[@Thed538dhsk]

Who do you feel actually likes star wars and doesn't?

[@AndreNitroX]

Exactly Star Wars is so much more than just a platform it is pure escapism and they took that away. But the EU and the real Star Wars will always serve that purpose

[@Ihavethetouch]

​@@Thed538dhsk If you ask someone what they like about Star Wars and their answer is current day problem, that is a pretty safe bet to say they don't actually like Star Wars

[@Thed538dhsk]

@@AndreNitroX what do you consider the real star wars?

[@Thed538dhsk]

@@Ihavethetouch what do you like about star wars?

[@ModernSurvivalSense]

Star Wars has always been a story about the classic struggle between good and evil. That was the appeal. We had strong, heroic characters that we see ourselves in, fighting against the forces of evil, mirroring the teachings we've grown up with.

[@socialaccount0000]

"Disney, can we have Darth Plagueis?" Disney: "We have Darth Plagueis at home" (Reveals The Acolyte)

[@saberiandream316]

Lucasfilm has always had a petty vendetta against the EU and EU fans from day one after George left. That's never going to change anytime soon.

[@simonssays78]

Actor David Harewood may be playing DarthPlagueis

[@billadams8899]

Instead we get Darth Obvious

[@liltory3196]

@@saberiandream316the sticks in the mud (not everyone at Lucasfilm) didn’t like the books even before the prequels came out , EU was always good lore it just competes with Lucasfilm, so I feel like they are threatened by that

[@Lilac-and-Gooseberries]

Like I said before I think a Bane and Zannah series could have been better.

[@Needler13]

I don't trust disney Lucas film with it.

[@Ihavethetouch]

Hell no, imagine how much of a girl boss Zannah would have been

[@GregScholfield]

I hope Disney forgets how to read before then.

[@bigblue207]

@@Ihavethetouchshe already was but not because it was pandering, because she genuinely was creative and cunning and dangerous. They wouldn’t have had to do any work except basically translate it page for page from the books (which admittedly is all they needed to do for the sequels as well). The chick succeeded her master to become a Sith Master, that’s the definition of girlboss even if the concept has been butchered by culture wars in recent years

[@rector0455]

Imagine Disney writing a definitive end to that battle between Master and Apprentice and all the... Modern day allegories they could make with that. I think I'm perfectly content for this to remain untouched.

[@FabuBrik]

If Ki-Adi-Mundi was involved during these Acolyte killings, wouldn't he have said something like "How can you be sure what you saw was a Sith and not some other faction?" when Qui-Gon came to the council instead of dismissing it? Even if you make the argument that it doesn't break canon, it does at the very least make things nonsensical.

[@mkhud50n]

actually it was smart to put him in because we can blame him for the hubris of the Jedi without blaming the entire Jedi Order and making them out to be the bad guys.

[@FabuBrik]

@@mkhud50n except that he used to be a cool character that I liked and that line of thinking ruins his character.

[@mkhud50n]

@@FabuBrik I get that. Not saying he’s entirely bad. Nobody is perfect. I kinda like him too.

[@thedude925]

​@@FabuBrik A cool character? What did he ever do other than have 5 wives?

[@FabuBrik]

@@thedude925 Nothing really extraordinary. Just for me personally all of the prequel jedi and council were cool to me and nostalgia mostly.

[@ericlunde7960]

As Star Wars-based KZbin channels are gaining a more widespread audience with how bad The Acolyte is going, I want you to know I appreciate your style of content. It best represents my perspective. I hope your nuanced takes are not lost among more "energetic" opinions.

[@AndreNitroX]

That’s why I love thor, he’s very coolheaded and gives credit where credit is do but is not afraid to criticize

[@skywalkersbutido6375]

Star Wars hate baiters you mean,just the thing Thor has become. Theres so much to take from the show and they only focus on comparing it to things that are not even canon.

[@ian-flanagan]

@@skywalkersbutido6375I don’t think there is a way to dislike the show and dislike it without you labeling as “hate baiting”. He gave it far more of a chance than most potential viewers did.

[@davidfrederiksen3185]

​@@ian-flanaganyeah Thor is not too bad. He can be at times but he never seems as blinded by hatred as other channels

[@joaopedrorosa6198]

Thor is certainly more grounded than most youtubers i'm seeing. But still i think he is going out of the way to criticize this show. I don't think the show is good. But he is overtheorizing on this plot hole of Kid Adi Mundi and Sith being revealed before the time while Kid Adi mundi hasn't even learned the "facts" in the series.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

I think anyone can love a franchise. That’s the easy part. Understanding it well enough to make a good product? That’s the hard part and I think that’s the bigger problem.

[@yevaud6]

Your spot on, the Sith are bad, the Jedi are good. The millenia of peaceful times is the last place you should explore some grey area. You could explore it during the old republic, when Sith and Jedi were both vast in numbers (currently I'd rather Disney go anywhere near that era with their current understanding) or during the clone wars, it also made sense to see force sensitive be swayed. Sith are coming out of the shadows and recruiting for their side far more publicly, but even then it's embracing evil or embracing good. The only example I can think of, as far as a grey area, is that Jedi who was mistreating his clone batallion. I can't recall if he had already turned as a sith and was acting as an under cover agent, or he purely just saw them as expendable tools instead of a living being. There may not have been hate or negative emotion involved (embracing the darkside) so much as calous indifference.

[@richardsylvester4518]

I'm sorry but if the Acolyte is a "pretender" sith, that may mean a true sith would know the differance ... but the jedi would not. They would assume the sith had returned. It still breaks canon even if it is a pretender sith.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

And even if they think it's some Dark Jedi and try to cover it up, it still doesn't explain why the Order doesn't train Padawans to do proper lightsaber combat and how to fight in real battles.

[@JoRoq1]

A true Sith would still follow a particular creed (including, at this point, the Rule of Two, as Yoda pointed out in TPM) that can be examined against a claimant's actions and words. SIth is not a general term for "Dark Side user" just as Jedi is not the general term for "Light Side user". No known living Jedi would have personal experience with the Sith, but the Archives would have full records of what was known from the past. It is reasonable to speculate that the Council could review everything that is happening in the show and determine that Qimir was not a true Sith, in the absence of revelation for how Qimir trained and built his "Stranger" persona.

[@Ihavethetouch]

This is just like Rogue One was a movie without Jedi. Just because Chirrut doesn't use lightsaber doesn't mean he isn't pretty much the same as Jedi

[@wolfscar5557]

Even if it's a pretender, that's still not going to raise some questions about how this single guy was able to fight so many Jedi at a time? No one is going to wonder why near half a dozen Jedi just...disappeared? No one even might consider the possibility that this Force User may have some ties to the Sith in some fashion, even if he isn't one? Also them not telling the Council because they would "tell the Senate" is completely dumb as an argument, considering that the Council is under no obligation to tell the Senate anything. This is a Jedi Order matter, it's not a Senate or Galactic Republic matter. To add on, the Council was hiding from the Senate that there was apparently an Army....for the Republic to quote Yoda and Windu from AoTC. "Blind we are if creation of this Clone Army we could not see." "I think it's time we inform the Senate that our ability to use The Force has diminished." "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith, knows our weakness. If inform the Senate, multiply our adversaries will." ....So let's understand this....the Jedi Council in the PT, won't just go and inform the Senate that "hey we couldn't see this creation of a Clone Army, made to fight for the Republic." But they'll apparently according to The Acolyte, would go and inform the Senate that there's some Dark Force User running around, even though this wouldn't be something that they would have to tell the Senate, because it has nothing to do with the Republic and more to do with the Jedi Order.

[@Thed538dhsk]

How does it break the lore? No one from the Jedi council knows this guy or the sith exist yet. They still feel this is a splinter Jedi order trying to compete with them which imo is more interesting

[@franeruyt]

I think Qimir could possibly be a canon version of Naat Lare and his master is a canon version of Darth Venamis.

[@ThespianPrince13]

*What could’ve been:* ✅ Sith perspective story similar to Darth Plagueis or Darth Bane novels; Sith warrior and inquisitor stories from SWTOR. ✅ Mature and grounded story similar to Andor but with the mysticism of the Dark Side. In-depth look at Sith philosophy as we follow a master/apprentice two vs an entire galaxy story. ✅ Well-written Sith protagonists part of a two-person organization in a thousand-year conspiracy to upset the Galactic status-quo. ✅ New Star Wars timeline. Reality: ❌ The Acolyte…. “The power of one, the power of two. The power of many.”

[@AndreNitroX]

It hurts that the idiot writers for the acolyte had a wealth of examples from the EU and they didn’t use or learn anything. Probably didn’t even read any of the novels

[@MrSpajser]

@@AndreNitroX Why you lie ? Headland read all Bane books, played KOTOR and so on. If not then you wouldnt get Qimir as Sith Lord, maybe Tenebrous at the end and cortosis armor.

[@saberiandream316]

Darth Bane was already wiped from existence thanks to TCW.

[@ThespianPrince13]

@@saberiandream316 Your point? He’s been dead long before TCW.

[@saberiandream316]

@@ThespianPrince13 TCW used a completely different version of Darth Bane. He doesn't even look the same.

[@Alexander-kc8oq]

The marketing of the show before the trailers at least always seemed to implý that it was going to be a sith story. As in the sith are the protagonist(s) - something we havent seen being put to film or tv yet. The showrunner also said recently that she wanted to explore the sith in this show. Should have comitted to that idea instead of this risk-averse half-baked story about the High Republic jedi that also maybe has a sith in it.

[@saberiandream316]

I'd much rather see fan animators like WilkinsAnimations visually bring the Darth Bane novels to life, lol.

[@Amoschp524]

The way you explained where the plot is going that both Jedi and Sith are bad, that the Jedi cause the Sith to exist sounds like a mangled comic plot about the Heroes causing Villains to exist. That was a Trope that became mainstream when all the hero films had to deconstruct the heroes to show they were just as bad as the villains. 2012 was the year I noticed it gaining steam though it has existed before. I wonder if the writers have only experienced those type of tropes; the writers for modern day shows don't seem to have the depth or breadth of life experience/knowledge previous generations had and I think it is reflected in the work.

[@doomsdayrabbit4398]

Both sidesism.

[@mpnuorva]

You do realize KotORII outright stated there's a Jedi-Sith pipeline in early 2000s and that has been both part of the lore and a beloved meme in the fandom since? And that wasn't Chris Avellone making shit up, but merely observing that Anderson and Karpyshyn had brought no less than three mass conversion events into the lore, one of which was explicitly about disgruntled former Jedi.

[@Amoschp524]

@@mpnuorva From what I understand about Kotor 2 is that it was fairly well written and it was more focused on the Force. Plus it is a game and does not need the same level of writing. Games were usually consider below books but above comics in the cannon ranking. On screen live action is the strongest level of cannon with films above TV/Streaming. The Acolyte is a mangled version of this trope. The show should be better written than a game.

[@MrSpajser]

@@mpnuorva Give me info about 3 mass conversion events.

[@tjmcfadden5137]

@@MrSpajserthe times I can think of when a bunch of Jedi fell to the dark side as a group are the first and second great schisms the ones with the legions of Lettow and Ajunta Pall and his group going on to become sith both groups were doing experiments with life itself and creating monsters so the Jedi saying don’t do that makes sense. The next mass schism was the Revanchist movement led by Revan and it’s not like they all immediately descended to the dark side. They were corrupted by the Mandalorian war and starting to use the Mandalorians same tactics against them. The final large group of Jedi falling were the initial ones that left with that one Sith phanius and who started the new Sith wars that lasted a thousand years. But that was only like twenty masters it wasn’t a huge chunk of the entire order. So I don’t get what this guy is acting like the Jedi just create Sith. A few Jedi always get full of themselves the wiser smarter Jedi say don’t do that you’ll become evil and then the arrogant ones don’t listen and guess what become evil. The Jedi don’t create Sith. While many Sith were Jedi there is no teachings or actions of the Jedi that create Sith they actively try and stop them from falling

[@CantankerousDave]

Dark Helmet spelled it out: “Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.”

[@LumVaughan]

Even if it is revealed that Qimir is not a Sith, it would still mess up Mundi's line in TPM (unless he is part of a conspiracy). How? Okay, let's just assume that Qimir is NOT a Sith. By the end of this season, it is revealed that he is some sort of talented Dark Side user or whatever -- it doesn't really matter. Anyway, the Jedi Council is told, Qimir was not a Sith. A hundred years pass and Ki-Adi-Mundi is now on the Jedi Council at probably 140 years old. Qui Gon states that he believes that Maul is a Sith Lord. Now, if Qimir, a hundred years previously, was NOT a Sith and Mundi and the Jedi Council know and accept that Qimir was not a Sith, then wouldn't the conversation with Mundi have gone something like this, in The Phantom Menace: Qui Gon: He was trained in the Jedi Arts, my only conclusion can be, he is a Sith Lord. Ki-Adi-Mundi: Not necessarily, Qui Gon; 100 years ago a powerful dark side user named Qimir killed over half a dozen Jedi, including a Jedi Master, he used a red saber like Maul and dressed in black like you say Maul dressed, yet Qimir was not a Sith, so it is likely this Zabrek is not a Sith either. If the council concludes that Qimir is not a Sith, then I feel Mundi would bring up Qimir to Qui Gon as proof that a dark side user with a red saber doesn't mean they have to be a Sith. Since he doesn't mention this in TPM (obviously because TPM was made before The Acolyte) then it would look like Mundi was part of a cover-up of the incident with Qimir, or simply doesn't know the truth about what happened. Otherwise, he would have likely mentioned Qimir to refute Qui Gon's claims about Maul.

[@averythehawk]

And regardless instead of dismissing him they would take what Qui-Gon said as a serious matter since Qimir killed 8 jedi

[@LumVaughan]

@@averythehawk Exactly, they would have known even a 'fake Sith' could be deadly. The Acolyte events would change everything downstream of it, one way or another, and it would be quite a cover-up to hide all the dead Jedi. I think Thor is right about the 'red spores theory' which they might use to explain it all. In fact, they could claim that Sol went nuts and killed all of them. He returns to Coruscant with Mae, who is pretending to be Osha, and as soon as they land, she goes to the council and tells them Sol went crazy and killed everyone and somehow she survived and he brought her back with him. Sol of course refutes that, but with the poor story-line of this series, the council believes Mae (or there is a conspiracy to cover up everything quickly by blaming someone) and Sol is tried and executed for murder. Mae then has killed a Jedi without a weapon. Sounds hokey, but this could be the insane direction this series goes. I sure hope not, though!

[@averythehawk]

​@@LumVaughan Long post and probably won't get looked at but personally I don't like the show but I have a few fixes that would've made it easier to like it. Set it over 1,000 years before phantom menace. Instead of the twins being born from the force let the witches be adoptive parents to them. Like the planet they're on maybe they are persecuted and blamed for things out of there control simply due to them being witches. Have the twins bio family attacked by a young Qimir completing his last test to become sith, the witches step in trying to save them and fail but find the twins and maybe they have a line about the thread is pulling them together and they adopt the twins showing they aren't evil. Now when the jedi show up to recruit the twins still have basically the same course of events but maybe Osha wants to go with the jedi so she can explore and see the galaxy. When Mae confronts her she force pushes her away into the room (remember Osha isn't good at blocking) and then locks the door, instead of burning the journal she simply sets it down and walks away but the wiring on the door she used to lock it sparks setting the journal on fire. Osha sees the fire and climbs out of a window and when she runs into Mae later the what did you do line from Osha is her blaming for the fire something we were shown is an accident. When they both fall have Mae see Osha also fall but doesn't see Sol save Osha, both twins think the other is dead. Mae survives and sees the witches dead from a lightsaber and so she blames the jedi starting her quest for revenge. Now present day most of the events still play out the same except Mae's mission of killing the jedi without weapons is her proving she is worthy to be sith and wield a lightsaber. When Osha and Mae meet the impact of it is much different maybe Mae goes to hug Osha and she recoils remembering the betrayal and also still blaming her for the witches death which she thinks is a result of the fire Mae accidentally set. Mae still escapes but begins questioning her mission and if it's really what she wants. Show us a flashback of the twins throughout the years with a bit of Mae's training and also that her master is manipulative, then on the flipside show Osha's training and how while her masters are patient they realize maybe being a jedi isn't for her. Now Mae decides to be with her sister because that's all she has left in the galaxy in which is a bit more believable, Qimir is betrayed but let's her go planning to follow her and get revenge. Mae goes to turn herself in but Osha explains why she doesn't trust Mae citing the fire saying you destroyed our home and then Mae counters with why she thinks the jedi are evil citing the lightsaber wounds on the witches and blaming them for their deaths. Before the jedi can answer Qimir show's up at Kalnaccas hut and Mae instead of flip-flopping, helps the jedi using Kalnaccas saber, jedi still die of course but give the main cast of jedi more time to be endearing to the audience so we actually care when then die. During the course of the fight with Qimir maybe from dodging a saber throw Mae's hair is cut. Qimir ends the fight by using the stunner to knock out Osha and Sol and then force pushes Mae off the cliff, he then kidnaps Osha as leverage to use against Mae. Mae recovers and realizes what happened, finds Sol and instead of parent trap he senses her intentions are pure which is to save her sister something he is partly responsible for as he brought her there. Mae still thinks the jedi are evil but through the course of forming an alliance to save her sister she sees that they are peacekeepers maybe a bit naive but well meaning and kind even having Sol say things aren't always black and white there are shades of grey like their current situation. When the catch up to confront Qimir have him beat Sol using his anger at him having killed his fellow jedi against him. Before he kills him Mae steps in and save him leading to Qimir having a monologue about when he was Mae's age he was a better student and talking about his final test he name drops the planet the twins are from and how his test was to kill this family the twins realize he is responsible for their bio families death he then also let's it slip he's responsible for killing the witches. He goes to force push Mae but Osha realizing her sister isn't responsible for the deaths of the coven and that the love she feels for her is genuine steps in and successfully blocks the push. The twins team up using a combo of lightsaber and force abilities in a fight to rival phantom. The twins succeed and both stab Qimir, maybe he has a line about being the last true sith which they think he means is the last sith in the galaxy, but what he really means and is the from his point of view hiding in the shadows isn't what real sith do. Maybe an earlier episode he admonishes Mae for being too sneaky in one of her kills saying it lacked honor or something and she counters that pretty soon that's all they''ll be able to do as the jedi are closing in and eliminating the sith. This leads to the jedi thinking the sith are extinct. Final scene of the show the twins are at a funeral held by Sol for the jedi killed by Qimir. He offers both twins a place in the order saying Mae has redeemed herself and Osha has unlocked her potential, they decline realizing they can do more by walking a line between light and dark saying the galaxy is full of shades of grey. Would this still have pacing issues probably, but it would at least be a much more coherent plot to follow.

[@LumVaughan]

@@averythehawk I like your version much better, it is far more balanced and logical and seems like it would fit the SW universe much better. If Lucasfilm would only let some of us true fans give them ideas....

[@Enigma75614]

I hate when people say that it’s just a story about space wizards so plot holes don’t matter

[@amera35]

Another reason for the Old Republic. Plenty of Sith stories to dig through and find interesting ones.

[@mpnuorva]

No. KotOR remains the only one that didn't botch the Sith, everything else is built on Karpyshyn's silly notion of the Dark Side forming cultures and missing how the Rule fo Two works. Fun fact: Lucas telling the people planning NJO otherwise is the reason we got Yuuzhan Vong instead of extragalctic darksiders.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

@@mpnuorva Karpyshyn is literally the one responsible for fleshing out the Sith philosophy in KOTOR. And the Rule of Two makes the most sense BECAUSE Karpyshyn devoted an entire trilogy to it. And sentient beings DO form cultures from the dark side. That's how evil societies come to being.

[@AndreNitroX]

There is an entire sith empire that could lead to game of thrones level stories but Disney is too stupid to use it

[@saberiandream316]

Old Republic is dead thanks to Lucasfilm. It's been dead ten years and they want you to move on from the EU, not to fight for it.

[@TheLeoGonX]

Ahhh General Kenobi...

[@simonyesh]

You are a bold one.

[@rector0455]

If TCW were being produced by modern Lucasfilm, Anakin would've encountered Grievous in the series and you'd be a toxic complainer ruining Star wars if you took issue with that.

[@johnpoulton9446]

EXACTLY! There seems to be so much focus by Disney/LF to be so clever/to surprise/to prove they can make complex storylines etc that they can’t see the forest from the trees. A straight forward sith story is there for the telling! One that could easily fit into current lore and canon and that would ADD to it as well. NOT CHANGE it. And no need to try to be clever. We all can watch Shawshank and know Andy will break out one day and still be enthralled by the how and the development he goes through during that time. But that also may be the issue, Shawshank had legitimate talent working on it. Yes that’s a statement that is personal. But Andor did it. R1 did it. Both added to the canon and lore while working within the framework of the themes and lessons Star Wars is(was) !

[@iggi3985]

It's not that Disney has got lost in the details, but rather that they just don't care about the message and story of Star Wars. Nothing good will ever come when the mind set is: - I can make it better - I can fix it - The IP is outdated and needs to be changed.

[@TheRealTruthMovement]

Best Star Wars novel.

[@YegRon]

It’s so good. Definitely my favourite. Does so much to flesh out the saga and world build.

[@saberiandream316]

Nope, that's Jedi Apprentice #8. The Day of Reckoning.

[@blackshogun272]

​@@saberiandream316 hmm, gonna have to look into this one. Also, did I just see you in the comments of Eckharts latest vid?

[@saberiandream316]

@@blackshogun272 Perhaps.

[@lordvayl2194]

The Baneite Sith often exterminated other dark side groups that garnered too much attention because they wanted to keep the Jedi complacent. There is an example of this in the Plagueis novel. As pertains to The Acolyte, if Disney at all respected the timeline, Darth Tenebrous or Plagueis would probably take notice of the darksider running around killing Jedi and take care of them.

[@Malt0d3xtr1n]

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS, Thor. I've had several discussions in your comments sections these past few weeks with people who really can't or won't recognize what you're saying. To be fair to them, I think a lot of people have become jaded by modern media, because everything now is an "expose" or a "reveal", showing that no one is really that "good", everyone is just driven by their own desires. And while that may often be true of real life, that's actually EXACTLY the reason I watch things like Star Wars. I want to escape to a world where good exists, where heroes are real, so I can be inspired to try harder to be good in my own life. Media inspires, it doesn't just reveal.

[@benner1828]

I think you nailed something when you said "blaming the existence of criminals because of the existence of the laws" The background of the director and writers does have that view. And that is the problem of the show... their view of the world is outside of the norm.

[@VoiceOfTheEmperor]

It's not that. It's that the writers of "Disney Canon" don't know what they're doing and are unqualified of the job.

[@mycelia_ow]

To be fair some canon changes were actually good, most of the bad stuff in Star wars comes from the directors and writers we've had. The people in charge of the book side of Star Wars have been doing good.

[@VoiceOfTheEmperor]

@@mycelia_ow I'll grant you that. But still, the live action has been mostly miss.

[@Ihavethetouch]

@@mycelia_ow Changes such as?

[@pabloj.garcia2559]

Why there are still people that talks about Disney Star Wars like if anything was Obi-Wan? That is like if I say the EU was bad because some of their bad books/comics

[@moderndancingfool]

@@VoiceOfTheEmperor Yeah Andor was really horrible, sure.

[@Donnel4]

Hey Thor, you've said many times in your videos that if you were in charge of Star Wars you would allow writers to continue the legends timeline. I'm not super knowledgeable on legends, but based on my limited knowledge of it, the heart of the legends continuity seems to be in the years following Episode 6, which by this point has been very heavily explored in dozens of books (to the point where the main characters are in their 60s(!) in the last published books.) So my question is, if you were tasked with following up with new stories in Legends what would you like to explore and what would your plan be?

[@cancerconnoisseur]

Legends was the entirety of the EU outside of the movies. That's the entirety of the Old Republic, and the New Republic eras.

[@AndreNitroX]

If you’re looking for an epic sith story that will get you into the Expanded universe before Disney. Start with the Darth Bane trilogy

[@saberiandream316]

@@AndreNitroX Jedi Apprentice and Young Jedi Knights are also great.

[@StarwarsNut2]

While Legends/EU has its faults, it is waaaaaaay better than Disney "canon". My own fan-fic series takes place a long time after Luke reestablished the Jedi Order. Times have changed. They don't wear plain brown robes anymore. Droids are smooth and based on different kinds of animals or aliens. Force abilities have more variety based on the character. And there are other changes. If it's a different generation, things will be different. Plus, none of the antagonists are Sith (so far) but do represent corruption and darkness in their own ways. If I were in charge of Star Wars stories I would hire better writers than myself and do something like that.

[@minakat369]

The Darth Plagueis novel isn't just the best Star Wars book I've ever read; it's one of the most outstanding sci-fi/space opera books ever written. I'd place it right up there with the legends: Herbert, PK Dick, Orson Scott Card, Theodore Sturgeon, Harlan Ellison, Asimov, Heinlein... It's a masterpiece, and the audiobook takes it to another level. Not only does it significantly enrich the Star Wars universe, respecting the lore and history before it, with action, intrigue, philosophy, violence, politics, scheming, crime syndicates, and two purely evil characters, Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious, but it also includes Dooku, Qui-gon, Sifo Dyas, Darth Maul, and even Anakin and Padme. I've seen numerous videos on KZbin claiming that Palpatine is the best villain in cinematic history-not Vader. After reading this book, I realized it's true, and I can't see it any other way. Palpatine is the personification of evil, relishing every moment as he rises to power. And just like Revenge of the Sith, there's no happy ending as he triumphs, and it's well-deserved. "I listen to the audiobook at least once a year. In nine years, I must have read it 10 or 12 times. It's just that amazing. This Acolyte show... it doesn't, it doesn't count.

[@captaindc3889]

Ki Adi Mundi is Dark Plageius calling it now

[@dbass9544]

My moneys on it being one of the twins 🙄

[@rector0455]

And he's a Clawdite not a Muun or Cerean. Heh heh followed you here from SWT

[@richdiwz8183]

Dude wtf LOL. HAVE U NOT SEEN EPISODE 3 WHEN HE DIES? DUMBEST THING U EVER SAID I EVER HEARD HERE BUT LOVE MY NERDS😂

[@captaindc3889]

@@richdiwz8183 exactly, he wasn’t expecting his apprentice to betray him during Order 66

[@rector0455]

@@captaindc3889 @richdiwz8183 I'm telling you, clawdite is the way to go with this. Palpy ended him that night he became chancellor, or at least he thought he did... Clawdite Plagueis never once let his apprentice know he wasn't a Muun, and after barely surviving Sidious' attack on him, he shifts to his Mundi identity permanently, plotting and scheming and trying to tip of the Jedi without exposing himself. He managed to plants seeds of doubt about the Chancellor in Windu's ear in confidence, but couldn't ever offer hard evidence, and then before he could take his revenge, he was betrayed again by his old apprentice during Order 66... Only the Galactic Marines who gunned Mundi down were ever aware of his true identity as he reverted back to his clawdite form upon death.

[@Poptalkandaliens]

I’ve literally never seen someone say they liked Star Wars because of how it relates to modern day anything. They may exist, but I’ve seen and heard thousands of comments & have yet to come across that one.

[@MadelineMysterious]

your videos are starting to be the best source really. Star Wars theory always seemed more about that got showcasing his impersonations by reading things most all star wars fans knew. Not that I hate that channel, I have watched a lot of it but at times it gets old over there. I guess I'm saying my thought process developed beyond his and i find your channel a bit more cerebral. You deserve more subs for it!

[@dianesinger9729]

I agree with you here about the Sith. I liked the idea from Plaguis that other "Stih" are pretenders. Interesting idea there

[@LumVaughan]

Hey Thor, I had a horrible thought that is worrying me the more I think about it. Remember Qimir's mission for Mae was to 'kill a Jedi without a weapon'? Here is a scenario they could use: They could claim that Sol went nuts and killed all of them. Sol returns to Coruscant with Mae, who is pretending to be Osha, and as soon as they land, she goes to the council and tells them Sol went crazy and killed everyone and somehow she survived and he brought her back with him. Sol of course refutes that, but they go and find the dead bodies, all cut up with lightsabers (well, Yord had his neck snapped, but Sol could do that) and Qimir has left with the real Osha by the time the Jedi council arrives. All they see are dead Jedi and the strange red dust, which they learn can drive those who inhale it aggressively insane, perhaps only temporarily. Despite Sol's passionate protests, the council believes Mae as no one is able to detect that she isn't Osha. Sol could also be selected as a scapegoat by the council who want to hide the existence of a powerful darkside user and so they publicly announce that he is to blame, and Sol is tried and executed for murder. Mae could even provide a false narrative to the full Jedi council of the events from her homeworld 16 years earlier that would cast him in a bad light. All the other Jedi there would be dead by then and the Council would likely think that Mae was actually Osha (as none in this series are Force sensitive enough to detect a fake). Mae then has killed a Jedi without a weapon. Sounds hokey, but this could be the insane direction this series goes. I sure hope not, though!

[@henriquenunes3255]

The problem with disney star wars is that it started to build itself up on the premise of going back to the roots and detach itself from the prequels while still creating something new. That forced them to make legacy characters either stupid or forced them to become occasional easter eggs so their own characters could shine. They just never outgrew the fear of never being able to not be overshadowed by the og characters and that fear, ironically, made this whole thing a self fulfilling prophecy. Of course you can create something new, but give the fans some proper connective tissue to what has already been established (the karate kid sequel series cobra kai is a great example for this), it would be much easier to enjoy new characters that way. Huge mistake that they did not try to use darth plagueis in the sequels plus having the new characters training under force ghosts etc.

[@mesa176750]

Honestly I've already checked out of star wars since Ahsoka series. I canceled my disney+ this December, and don't plan on going back. Maybe for Andor season 2, but even then I'm pretty skeptical that these leaders of Disney star wars won't just ruin it.

[@sornreed]

What is frustrating me about the Acolyte is that it (or maybe thinks it) creates a mystery by simply removing portions of the story, context, or dialogue. And not revealing them until later episodes by literally spelling it out as if we hadn't figured it out by then. I feel they had a golden opportunity to tell a story through the eyes of each of the twins; that alone would have been more apt to leading us into false senses with the differing viewpoints. Assuming the lack of inventive plot twist agenda on the show's schedge.

[@AndreNitroX]

Looking for a great sith story? Look no further than the Darth Bane trilogy, about the sith that started the 1000 year conspiracy to overthrow the Jedi. The story of Bane and Zannah is so compelling they became my favorite sith in all of Star Wars, I is so engrossing how they evaded the Jedi and began the foundation for their 1000 year plan.

[@Daniel_Huffman]

I also appreciate that it indirectly explains one of the reasons the Jedi had heard of the Rule of Two: By leaving witnesses who lack any sort of credibility, rumors of the Sith's survival could be rationalized away as exaggerations. A complete lack of claimed sightings would be more suspicious than the occasional "tall tale," even if the Sith _were_ truly extinct.

[@rector0455]

Glad you're still finding ways to enjoy real Star Wars, Thor. I encourage everyone to read or listen to these books if you havent, it might illuminate the issues older fans have with this newer content. You can even find them on youtube to listen too for free.

[@saberiandream316]

I'm still diving into the EU. My favorites remain Jedi Apprentice and Young Jedi Knights.

[@bladeduffer]

Thor, love the passion you have for Lucas's creation. It's obvious that you, like most fans, aren't lost but, as you referenced, are immersed in these stories. I remember, as an 11 year old, spotting this new book in the bookstore. It was the novelization of an upcoming film called Star Wars.(You can figure how old I am). Initially , I had no idea what it was about but was engrossed in this story about good vs. evil and princesses and knights in space. The images in the book sealed the deal and I couldn't wait for my Dad to take me and my younger brother and sister to go see it in a few months when it premiered. After all these years I feel for fandom now being subjected to Disney's brand of SW.

[@thestarisalie]

The thing about evil is two things: It isnt a matter of perspective. And it cant just be. The mere existence of evil is in of itself bad.

[@jaieregilmore971]

Hell the force unleashed is a good Sith story and clear warning for not joining the Sith due to the betrayals.

[@sanshinobi3664]

9:00 Yoda hears about this new show 9:08 Yoda reads the script 9:22 Yoda asks Leslie Headland what she was thinking/smoking

[@pontusliljeblad]

But the sith-guy is like 35 yrs old, so he’d be like 10 during “the fateful night”. 😅

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

The dark side corrupts, it ALWAYS corrupts because that is its nature. There can be no tolerating using the dark side and that is what is fundamentally wrong with this show, the show runners either cannot or will not understand what the dark side is

[@CartoonistDave]

it hurts their own idealogy of morality, so they can't have it. Even in a fictional world.

[@AndreNitroX]

Before Disney, the dark side was pure nightmare fuel, even touching it could lead you down a self destructive path. In Disney “canon” it is treated as a yin Yang thing, complete fundamental misunderstanding

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

@@AndreNitroX exactly

[@TheEmperorsChampion964]

@@AndreNitroX the more I think about it the more I believe it started with the concept of Vapaad, being able to use the dark side but not really so it's ok

[@appletree13]

@@TheEmperorsChampion964 That...would make a lot of sense, actually. Mace had the strength of will to be able to resist falling to the dark side, but as he was the only one _in the entire Jedi order_ at the time (as far as we know) we can conclude it's quite rare, something these new guys wouldn't have access to.

[@hubertino855]

SWTOR Empire character stories are an absolute peak when talking about "bad guy" POV... Shame we don't have something like this anymore...

[@ssjllamamusic]

This. I used to play that game nonstop a decade ago

[@tomradcliff6859]

I think you're right, Thor. You are in a place where you can look objectively at and assess The Force in Star Wars. Many people are not where you are. They are identifying with something within Star Wars that they like and THAT is the appeal, just as some people see Superman as a bastion of selflessness and protecting the innocent while others see strength and dominance. It is small wonder then that Lucas' idea of the Force is not as widely understood as you might hope.

[@DildoDaggins69]

12:21 I know that people who didn't like Andor are utterly tired of hearing "this is something that Andor did really well" ... but, this is something that Andor did really well. (Obviously, the conflict isn't Jedi/Sith, but rather it's Rebels/Empire). We spend a few episodes watching Dedra navigate office politics at ISB, we watch her get ahead using dedication, competency and thinking outside the box, all while dealing with smarmy, back-stabbing co-workers, and we can't help but root for her as she triumphs and gets rewarded for it by her boss. And then, she goes to Ferrix, we see her in action and realize: this is a horrible, horrible person, acting in the interests of a tyrannical, evil regime. My point being, Andor allowed exploration of both sides while never losing sight of the fact that evil is, well, evil.

[@bcVideinfra78]

Well put! When people say Andor isn't "real Star Wars" I have to question what Star Wars they're talking about!! It's actually much more Star Wars than anything that has come after RotJ, including the Prequel Trilogy. If you think about it, the Original Trilogy didn't have a million Jedi/Sith running around, twirling multi-colored lightsabers, and DragonBall-Z Force powers. It was actually character driven and much more personal. The Force was subtle. Every other type of character far outnumbered the Jedi/Sith, including common people/aliens in all types of backwater planets. It's what made it feel like a real world. The galactic conflict was what was actually at stake! Not who wins the Jedi vs Sith battle. What is MORE Star Wars than Andor if it is the only thing that actually replicates the SW of the Original Trilogy?

[@DildoDaggins69]

Mace looked even grimmer than usual. “Since the fall of Darth Bane more than a millennium ago, there have been hundreds of thousands of Jedi-hundreds of thousands of Jedi feeding the light with each work of their hands, with each breath, with every beat of their hearts, bringing justice, building civil society, radiating peace, acting out of selfless love for all living things-and in all these thousand years, there have been only two Sith at any time. Only two. Jedi create light, but the Sith do not create darkness. They merely use the darkness that is always there. That has always been there. Greed and jealousy, aggression and lust and fear-these are all natural to sentient beings. The legacy of the jungle. Our inheritance from the dark.” “I’m sorry, Master Windu, but I’m not sure I follow you. Are you saying-to follow your metaphor-that the Jedi have cast too much light? From what I have seen these past years, the galaxy has not become all that bright a place.” “All I am saying is that we don’t know. We don’t even truly understand what it means to bring balance to the Force. We have no way of anticipating what this may involve.” “An infinite mystery is the Force,” - _Revenge Of The Sith Novelization, a book that was thoroughly line-edited by George Lucas (and the single best piece of SW content ever created)_

[@FierceDIO]

I've recently taken up reading the Star Wars EU, starting with the Republic series, and I'm glad I did. It's the first thing since I've watched the movies that actually feels like Star Wars to me. So many stories with so many characters across so many years and planets yet it all feels like the same universe, like it's all holding the same themes and messages. Which is something Disney (and even TCW) have absolutely failed to replicate.They fell more like stories that just so happen to take place in a galaxy far far away instead of Star Wars stories.

[@Blafina]

Do you reckon you could do some form of a debate with other KZbinrs (directly, just going into arguments from both sides, something like that)? Dunno who would be the best for something like that, but I think it would be interesting. Even something like you described recently on listening to the Last Jedi fans at celebrations years ago would be something. It feels like that with the Acolyte, there are actually very distinct groups of fans (yeah, even more so than with or since the Last Jedi) and some ‘contact’ might be nice.

[@Agent_Cobalt]

This is why I keep recommending people check out swtor. The sith class stories are some of the best bits in the game and demonstrate the potential of a sith centric Star Wars story. I’ll always appreciate how they tackled being a light sided sith. You still follow the sith code, and fight for the empire, but act honorable, and benevolent when you stand to gain something from it. Disney Star Wars does not want to show that level of nuance with its bad guys. It makes it even weirder the way the morality of the Jedi and sith are treated in the acolyte. I think the problem is less about what is and isn’t a sith, and more so that one of the points of the rule of two was to (in a time of crisis) remain hidden and consolidate dark side knowledge and power. It was not to send sith themed assassins around to try and kill high profile Jedi. Its like they wrote themselves into a hole with the High Republic. The whole starting premise of the era is that they sith remained hidden and where not found out. Why would they make the first live action story in the era about a sith or wannabe sith showing up? In the old republic you had tens of thousands of sith and Jedi of various dispositions. It was like the clone wars on crack, without the conspiracy angle. And so we’ve had so much deconstructive content relating to the sith and the Jedi, and so the only thing the acolyte adds to the universe is questions about where it fits in the timeline. Questions about how nobody knew about this. That’s the only thing that the true fans are worried about because they know it was a risky idea altogether

[@c7042]

I'm not a Star Wars fan but I did enjoy the movies (some more than others). I don't much care what Disney is doing with SW. I'm just an ordinary man.

[@YegRon]

Great video Thor. I saw this argument on Twitter just the other day. The account, a relatively large one, was making the case that Mundi was wrong, so of course it doesn’t matter if the Jedi encounter Sith or Sith-like villains. It’s either totally disingenuous or they - like you say - completely misunderstand Star Wars. I too love Darth Plagueis. I’d love to see it made into a live action - or have it inspire something, but at the same time, I don’t want the current crop of creatives at Lucasfilm touching the story.

[@saberiandream316]

Filoni's already butchered enough EU, I don't want to encourage his bad habits.

[@YegRon]

@@saberiandream316 I say exactly that in my comment

[@stephenelberfeld8175]

The thing is that Luke was never given a chance to show what a Jedi Knight was capable of, outside of the best selling novels. Then you have cartoonists horsing around with the lore like this magical helmet the "Sith" guy is wearing that the Jedi are ignorant about. So that "anything goes" in Disney Star Wars, and the Jedi can be shown as hypocritical cultists with no actual experience using the force in a fight against a dangerous foe, or to combine their skills effectively.

[@TheManInBlueFlames]

The show clearly contradicts the novels and expanded legends canon. We're supposed to believe no Sith have been around for 1000 years and then you remember Plagueis and Tenebris exist and are running around laughing at all these events if they are in this universe?!

[@portaldosjogos5331]

Finally some channel criticizing Acolyte with actual criticism and content, not babbling about the director’s agenda or any other “dumb” details. Amazing video!

[@scotthudson8722]

Thor, it is becoming clearer and clearer to me that Vernestra is the Master Sith. She spends the first 5 episodes trying to cover everything up. She is also the prime chess piece mover, sending Sol and company on missions, making them come back to Coruscant for no logical reason (actually, to give Qimir time to kill the Wookie, then be ready to take out the remainder of the Jedi she sends). I'm guessing she's frustrated with Qimir for going rogue, and blowing their cover. She will turn up in the end and kill Qimir AND Sol to shut everyone up and maintain the secret. She is the Sith.

[@strikeflyer]

I think one of my favorite Sith stories is funny enough the Sith warrior class story from Star wars the old republic. You get to see a lot of the inner workings of the master and apprentice dynamic between you and Darth Baras. Don't know why but I just hold that story in high esteem as opposed to the other 8 classes

[@Rewenat]

Really nice analysis. Well done

[@johnmiwa6256]

Well said, sir. The riff of what Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy said, the heart of Star Wars is The Force--which has a Light Side and a Dark Side. I share your hope that in the end, The Acolyte will remember that fundamental principle of the franchise. But time will tell.

[@theaverageDon]

Bro, I would love to see/hear you, Ryan with RK Outpost, and Mauler have a discussion/stream together Would be so epic and enjoyable 🐐

[@palonoctisursa]

My BiL was reading this book and was really hopeful that the acolyte would be about plagues and a young palpatine. Poor guy, I didn’t know exactly what the show would be about but I definitely knew that Disney generally wants to leave anything pre Disney ownership behind

[@zelha5528]

I am definitely one of those types of fans that dont particularly care about the overall story. I kmow things will change i just wamt some cool lightsaber/blaster fights. I wamt to see cool things. If the characters are cool thats a bonus for me. I have a family to raise idc about the details

[@thejontao]

I enjoyed your discussion of the Darth Plagueis novel. I like how it acknowledges pretender-Siths. How could there be something as powerful as the force, dark side or light, and there not be pretenders. If you did a video just about that book, I’d watch it. If you did multiple videos about that book, I’d watch all of them.

[@NoBreakz]

This is how wars is started Both sides have different POV of the same thing

[@LPMagic341]

Wow! My friends have literally been trying to convince me that there was a Jedi secret cover up, that they knew about the Sith but were too arrogant to do anything about it because they wanted to maintain power. I tried and tried to tell them how ridiculous that is, but they wouldn’t have it. I sent them this video so hopefully maybe they’ll come around 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@2GuysTalkingPodcastNetwork]

It's clear to me that the process that Disney-based STAR WARS "creators" use, consistently, is that it's simply event, to event, to event, to event, to completion of ____ contracted episodes, eating $_____ budget, with little/no care of any kind as to what it adds to or impacts anything that has come before it. I would compare it to a far-more expensive representation of crafting sequels for previously successful horror films. They'll make 'em, oh, plan on it. The difference is here that the fundamental audience proving grounds is something far-more different and has been hijacked by people with inventions that ARE horrific/something completely contrary to what the general audience wants to provide time, attention and fandom-fostering to.

[@aaronsmithjr.5505]

Star Wars was always black and white under the patterns of a moral compass. Unlike Star Trek, which could be morally gray for philosophers.

[@StefSis]

The Witches could have been under the influence by a dark side user who used them to learn how to create life. Ah, heck, I dunno. I want to see that show about Plagueis though. If I were to play a part in the Star Wars universe I would want to play a Sith. I always found them more interesting. Not good, but it's the quality of the villains that make any story good. They hold the story up so to speak. They're what makes or breaks the story really. And they're just cool af 🎉

[@isaiahsmith7123]

Now this is an interesting development, you and Eckharts ladder came up with different conclusions based on the dialogue by Ki adi Mundi. It would be interesting to have a discussion with him.

[@Gamer-kg4ec]

A story of good vs evil. How one can take away all that is good (prequels) but also how one can bring good back even in a world filled with evil (originals). It’s a good story and awesome universe. It’s also a somewhat sad lesson that we should take care to not let evil take root in us and not get complacent.

[@ariesstorm9577]

All I want is a game of thrones style Old Republic series. “Lots of people name their lightsabers.” “Lots of c***s” “Malgus! Your emperor needs you!” “F**k the Emperor.”

[@toastedteddybear]

love love love your stuff. a thought: it's not blaming criminals on the existence of laws. it's blaming criminals on the existence of how laws are unfairly enforced. yes, the dark side corrupts but we all have darkness and facing it is key to becoming whole. is there merit in broadening light versus dark in a more modern framework, and if not-- then should the story/universe be built out at all or remain in the binary form as is and untouched by any sort of extended universe, canon or otherwise?

[@ralphieboy9596]

I love Star Wars-the first three! But after that, I have a lot of questions and there are mistakes, O'Boy!! At the same time, I do not live and breathe Star Wars! Yes, Disney f**** it up, but I really do not think they care, yet they should!!

[@stevena.7022]

I've been a proponent of ending ''canon'' since the EU contradictions started popping up and the whole story had long went over the heads of theater going masses that had last watched RoTJ. Let everyone have whatever continuity, quality, or genre they like. Are Jedi Baby Adventures and Andor in the same universe? Why? It's not for everyone now. This mass audience appeal, families of all ages demographic is for then. There are a few niches a more varied Star Wars story can go.

[@bcVideinfra78]

I totally agree with you. Everything that came after RotJ is kind of just a "What If..." story for me. (Tbh, there are minor things I don't even like about RotJ, but it got the important storylines right). Not even George Lucas was the same person 20+ years later when he made the PT. Nor were all the same people still around who had a hand in making the originals (Gary Kurtz, Joe Johnston, Ralph McQuarrie, etc.). Even the PT are very different movies from the originals. Everything is a product of its time, it's impossible to recreate. The OT will always be a cinematic masterpiece that blew the world away for me, let everyone else have their lightsaber porn and the next "Darth Whatever" Sith that Dave Filoni recycled. (People don't even know that Darth was actually just Vader's first name lol).

[@greyworld6242]

I love watch a series about the Sith before the rule of two.

[@mothgamingoffical4502]

Hey Thor I had originally an idea to ask your opinion on how Dave Filloni has handled the canon from Lucas era to Disney era. One of the inspirations were from JJ Plagiarisims a prequel and EU fan. When I was originally making the question he had only one video on Dave. However now he has covered all the major heads of the current Lucasfilm Kathleen Kennedy and Sequel writers Abrams and Johnson while making my original question age poorly.

[@diyapia]

I own the 1st print and loved this book years ago…just scored the unabridged audio for a revisit….acolyte should be ashamed! Read it or listen to it any way you can. TOP NOTCH STAR WARS!

[@jayt9608]

Disney Star Wars is not George Lucas Star Wars, and while Lucas did not view the EU as HIS canon, he recognized it as an expansion of his work and endeavored to ensure that the authors stayed true to the spirit of his canon. We must, therefore, remember forever that Disney decanomized the EU, therefore nothing in the EU or our understanding of its expansion of the lore has ANY bearing on the Disney canon. Thus, one is forced to either be abandoned by Disney's Star Wars as they move ever further away from the works and spirit of George Lucas six movie canon, or the creation of Lucas must be forsaken in the pursuit of Disney's narrative. The two are beyond reconcilliation.

[@saberiandream316]

I personally don't like all these EU nods in Disney Star Wars that are engineered to trick people into thinking the setting of the EU remains intact, its history and world-building, when it very much is not.

[@jayt9608]

@saberiandream316 I think that far too often, the EU nods are not truly there, but people want Disney stories to be at least passible that they attempt to read the EU into the new canon. Darth Bane is never mentioned in this show, neither were Plagueis or Tenebrous, nor any other Sith Lord, but people are speculating as to which one is currently in power. Simply put, none of them. This is Disney, and Disney is writing their own world without regard to any canon or lore from before. Not their own, not the EU, and certainly not anything from George Lucas.

[@KMort]

I love the Plagueis novel because it shows you can write a story about evil people without making them sympathetic. You get young Palpatine and it doesn't somehow morph into a sympathy/he was tortured story it's just a genuinely evil, brilliant man.

[@MCsCreations]

“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance” - Thomas Jefferson

[@samuelmoore1635]

Your explanation of why the line is important and how the show changes it is spot on.

[@Maiq-TheLiar]

u are probably right with the prediction about the ending. And i think a message like that won't fit well in star wars (not that it can be done) but when your working with sith or whatever they are in this show who are the definision of evil in the galaxy It would be like giving Sauroman and Rohan and the Ents equal blame for the scouring of the Shire

[@MrJustwatchin9]

Star Wars has elements every viewer can become attached to. When I was young I enjoyed the aesthetic the most. I was fixated on the light saber and I accepted whatever hero figures and villains came with it. As I got older I became more appreciative of the story lines . As I got way older I became for appreciative of the stories being human stories and the Star Wars aesthetic is the icing on the cake. A lot of fans gravitate towards the lore and the lore is intriguing but for me that’s not what I mainly like about it. So when I watch acolyte I do recognize the human story detailed in the 3rd episode as my child’s mom was a pupil of her grandmother and also a witchcraft practitioner who began leaning towards Christianity as she got older. She told me the story of how she had to distance herself from her and why she’s so isolated now. That story resonated me because the story of my son’s mother comes straight from a fictional tale. But the story of osha leaving her coven and separating from her mother and family is a typical theme of newly recruited Jedi hopefuls Abe there’s a different story to be told with every piece of content. And I like the fact that we’re getting other walls of life told from the lens of Star Wars and the fact that we’re getting a full on universe expansion and not just of the Jedi. These are peripheral stories we’re getting in TV format and that’s what George said he wanted to work on after Revenge of the sith. Ppl who are disgusted with Star Wars seem to be lore junkies and that’s cool. We’ll eventually get more content that explore more lore but Star Wars at its core tells human stories that people can relate to and as long as they deliver that it’s ok in my book

[@BaronGrackle-er4yf]

The whole concept of "true Sith" versus "just a Dark Sider" is a dichonomy that, in my opinion, doesn't exist in the Prequel films themselves (and probably not in George Lucas's mind), as evidenced by moments like Qui-Gon's take on Darth Maul in TPM or the description of Dooku as a "Sith Lord" in ROTS. That being said, the dichonomy came to be cemented pretty strongky in the old EU and both incarnations of the Clone Wars cartoons. We just sort of assume it was a guiding distinction in the OT and the Prequels, but it hadn't really developed yet, and there are issues with it if you study the dialogue tok closely.

[@allsorts-]

Strong story, solid writing, visually spectacular. You can't take one away, and you can't have one without the other two and still be good Star Wars (or anything, really.) And surely to be an actual fan of 'Star Wars'; as a whole thing, you would have to care about the whole, and not just a part.

[@carolbriscoe9337]

Thank you. Finally, a rational, adult observation of the Sith. I'd love a show centered around the Sith,. Think it could be very interesting, if well written and directed. I like your objective interpretation of the series and the Jedi Council. The Jedi Master's remarks about no Sith would be true because of their convictions and interpretations of various actions seen lover the years. Many thanks

[@DaftDrunk24]

I think it'd be cool if Plagueis helped the witches create the twins, with the intention to create a perfect acolyte but instead of creating one being that is both light and dark the embryo split with one being dark and the other light. Perhaps he tries again many decades later?

[@zacharyfett2491]

Hey Thor, 1:04 Here’s the problem with a show about the Sith……….current Disney Star Wars would muck it up. For example, we were presented with an opportunity to play as an Imperial Special Ops trooper in Iden Versio, and our excitement was short lived as she executed the fastest 180 in Star Wars history. Fast forward to just a couple months ago, and we were treated to the bait and switch known as Tales of the Empire. Now we have The Acolyte where Mae trains for twelve years in the Dark Side of the Force and she turns her back on her master as well. We would be severely disappointed.

[@n.alexanderlevitsky3728]

You have summarized some excellent points of my shared concerns. For me, this series in particular has really been subpar and a significant misstep down the wrong path. I feel Star Wars has not grown from this in mythos, lore and world building in harmony with the established foundation of the GL films. Instead, I feel Star Wars has at best endured this chapter in the Disney Era 'canon', with no real addition and expansion to what creates timeless dimension of mythos & lore. As for the 'Sith having been extinct'... Imagine Ben Kenobi saying he 'fought in the Clone Wars as a Jedi' and then a streaming series was released that suggested that the Clone Wars never took place. IP Holders and Creators should tread carefully through anything that might damage some of these "Universe Structures", for unexpected adverse results.

[@RyuShinkuuHadoken]

It was easy to write a story where everybody dies at the end but make their sacrifice worthy, like in Rogue one sending the information about the death star at the end, or Halo Reach sending Cortana at the end.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

These people don't believe in good and evil in real life, so they fundamentally can't comprehend the concepts involved without unlearning their own ideas

[@Shadow05eth]

I'd love to hear you review of the book when you finish it and your opinion on the way the Sith are presented in it!