Is This Cheating at the WSOP Main Event? | Only Friends Ep

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

It doesn't matter if it was in-between hands, it's still RTA if they are inputing chip counts to determine how they open hands.

[@Petty-Cash]

Its not as though they are studying last minute for a position that they 'may' be in in an hour's time. Its literally being shown an answer to the question being asked as soon as he sits back down.

[@TheWanderingDukes]

NGC has been made aware… internal meetings are scheduled in outlook. Anyone who thinks that something this publicized and blatantly allowed isn’t being investigated is kidding themselves. Look at Scott Sibella, look at the past three years.. NGC has a wrap sheet on the casinos. This one is pretty insane.. not only did the WSOP put Ceasars Entertainment at risk of their gaming license they did it on an internationally watched live stage for a $10,000,000 event

[@henriksenlaw]

Maybe we can change the attorney bar exam so that in between each question the test takers can go jog their memory by having 30 seconds to look at their notes and then Answer the question and then do that process for each question. It’s not like they didn’t study leading up to the bar exam….right

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

Exactly!!! I think Berkey is way off by claiming it's not RTA because a hand wasn't dealt yet. If they are inputing chip counts or even looking at hands and how to open, it's RTA. The tournament isn't on a break, therefore, anything on that computer should ve considered RTA. It was obvious that some sort of poker software was on that screen, Tomayo should have been banned or penalized.

[@Kingsfool]

Berkey: Everyone's mic'd up, if heard discussing strategy, one hand penalty Also Berkey 10 min later (after reading Daniel's tweet): Everyone's mic'd up so let's give them timeouts and embrace it

[@michaelburtyk6080]

Opinion: Studying while away from the table is acceptable, getting assistance (no matter how small the EV) from anyone or anything while at a table IS cheating. It is simply a bad look for Poker!

[@markcummings3146]

There is a nuance, I'd suggest a quick chat to the rail is fine but constantly going and looking at laptops is bad optics at least and should be stopped. Simple a warning to players not to do that. A quick chat nobody knows anything and we all know final table players have coaches.

[@dmv_p]

Berkey and some of the crew sound absolutely NUTS regarding using charts and other tools mid game!!!! Makes ZERO sense! Who gives two shits about the business end and what WSOP has to manage. First deal with the basic fact that if this is a skill game which S4Y and other companies try to sell education (courses) on - making any, and I mean ANY rational argument that "it's not that bad" only means one thing to me. YOU ALL HAVE DONE IT IN SOME SHAPE FORM OR FASHION ONLINE. You and many others like Dough have admitted as much on their respective podcasts. Getting coached and consulting your "team" during breaks and at the end of the day should be fine. But reviewing [ICM spots] in software, ranges, consulting coaches and ANY other assistance between hands is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! FOH with that BS Again, imagine Hikaru consulting his coaches between moves versus Magnus mid-game for the World Chess Title? Wow ... I can't believe what I heard on this episode.

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

I agree 100%!!! This episode really made me think about what types of illegal/shady shit Landon and Berkey are using for assistance when they play online.

[@tommyrjensen]

You cannot compare a chess game to what, an orbit, or a complete level, or the entire tournament? You can compare one chess game to one poker hand. And in chess it is completely legal to get coaching between games.

[@dmv_p]

@@tommyrjensen bull crap I can't. If stack sizes change ICM implications are there. Ranges change. Just like in chess when pieces come off the board and positions change. It's complete lunacy and to say anything otherwise is disingenuous

[@zachpuznak]

it is cheating. and. poker is populated by the worst scumbag people on earth.

[@6thwilbury2331]

@@tommyrjensen This analogy only works if the chess games are against the same player, over and over again; and if a typical chess game only consists of four moves rather than dozens. In all honesty, I was originally among those who didn't think it was that big a deal. But someone made a great point: in heads-up play when stacks get short, getting refreshed on push/fold, 3-bet and defend ranges go from being slightly helpful to damn near invaluable.

[@BonesawPoker]

Its just telling the recs to save their 10k, this is just for the pros with teams

[@jessymanuel4685]

Regarding the test/cheat sheet comparison: When you prepare a cheat sheet for a test, you don't know what specific questions will be on the test, just the general information that will be tested. When you can look at the exact question and get the exact answer seconds before the question is asked, this comparison breaks down entirely.

[@cueball42us]

If the WSOP made an announcement against using GTO then they should have been warned and then if they kept doing it then they should have been punished

[@tommyrjensen]

Yes, using GTO definitely should be harshly punished.

[@pxpj4n]

This is the point. It is not about the edge primarily but that this year it was explicitly forbidden. That's why usage in the past was okayish

[@Petty-Cash]

True, but the announcement should have been sterner & more exact. Not "please don't .... There may be a possible punishment" but "Do not. Or else"

[@Stockhandle123]

I've been trying to ban GTO play for decades.

[@joshuapatrick682]

yes, it is cheating as defined by the Nevada Gaming Control Board which licenses and regulates the WSOP and the fact that they waited to put it on the rail until after Astedt left the table kind of speaks to their intentions with it. They knew anyone with a background in the game would realize what was happening and say something.

[@robertball147]

What if the ME Final Table was handled like Game of Gold? No audience. During Breaks players are sequestered with a limited number of "supporters" or "teams" limited to 1 family member and 2 others. Your sequestered "team" can watch the stream but do not have any electronic devices. The producers have a camera in each "teams" room and can broadcast their interactions live as they wish.

[@wallstreetwindow]

if this isn't cheating I don't know what is, this GTO boy had ZERO respect for the other players at the table or the good of the game, total contempt for everyone. Berkey must be buddies with these guys again.

[@adolfocueva4197]

Had something like this happened at the Hustler Berkey would have been ALL OVER THIS. So disappointed. Just when I thought Berkey was to voice for justice and doing the right thing in poker we get this? Again, so disappointed Berk.

[@BigHairyWinningMachine]

So Berkey to be clear this is a big deal when it affects you but not when it’s the main even FT?

[@tommyfu9271]

Imagine what these 3 are doing online with nobody watching. GTO nerds are toxic enough for poker as it is we don't need people running software while playing. Getting rid of the rail or not letting them communicate with active players isn't pushing away amateurs. Shit like what these 3 did is what's gonna chase them away.

[@ryanzenner5393]

This has been happening at every main event final table for the last 15 years. Why are yall so upset about it now?

[@tommyfu9271]

@@ryanzenner5393 1) because the technology is a lot better today than it was 15 years ago 2) it's way more obvious than it was in the past 3) it's going to get worse as technology gets even better going forward if poker rooms/wsop don't do anything about it Are we really going to pretend these guys don't also cheat online when they're this brazen about it at the final table? I also have long had the unpopular opinion that the stream with the hole cards should be delayed a lot more. Poker is a game of incomplete information and I never liked the idea that when people are playing the biggest spot in their life on what's almost certainly going to be a one off event how they play every hand is available for their opponents coaches etc to see. It's really bad for amateurs who luck out and go deep.

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

​@@ryanzenner5393that's not accurate at all. Any program other than the delayed stream is against the rules. The picture of the laptop clearly shows poker software of some sort and that was bullshit that they got away with it. It's also bullshit that WSOP hasn't made a statement.

[@jeramy576]

Well Dom did just win the Venom in May for $1.8m. I'm sure nothing was amiss in him taking that down

[@tommyfu9271]

@@jeramy576 im sure him and his 2 friends are super honest online 🤣🤣

[@codyfisher5100]

Its getting even worse... not calling sims with your stack size the prizepool and the positions real time assistance is crazy. Yall really dropped the ball

[@rustyshakelford2218]

I love these episodes cause Bad Take Berkey comes out in full force.

[@_Coffee4Closers]

Once Griff and Tamayo are head to head they are essentially two guys playing heads up for 4 million dollars. I would be curious to know how much actual equity gain of the total 4 million that seeing "perfect" preflop charts would provide a player... $30K... 50K...? There are 4 betting rounds in Hold-em, and you just eliminated any possible mistake on the first branch of the tree. Mistakes are compounded with each street, so you just eliminated one of the biggest places to make a mistake. However, I imagine it is not as much of an equity gain as many might suspect. Saying, "people always talked to the rail for help in the past", are missing the point that these solvers are much more powerful today and if you don't stop this now, imagine 5 years from now with AI and powerful solvers making predictive real time analysis at the rail. These are not your Grandad's paper range chart guys, and you need to realize this. I think the perception to the public is that poker is just a massive one sided cheaters paradise, with the pros and tech savvy players just using computers to fleece the public of their money. If you want to kill poker (already online is dying due to the ease of cheating or at least the perception to the new players) then keep allowing people to have a team of tech wizards with solvers on the side of final tables relaying information to players. Why would a new player want to ever start playing this game if they feel there is ZERO chance they can ever win, and that it is just a game for suckers to hand their money to pros with solvers?

[@jonreid6852]

I think Berkey missed the point that the GTO Wizard 2 minutes per decision was a joke lol.

[@ralphkotwica6184]

Imagine a pit game "being solved" u think the casino would let u set up shop with tech and just play with no repercussions??? This needs to be policed........or u will just have ppl that can retain information rather than pure natural poker players that have card sense and talent

[@tommyfu9271]

Exactly. I can't sit there running software playing blackjack Technology is going to get better and faster and this is going to more and more of a problem in live poker if poker rooms don't stop shit like this.

[@SolveForWhy]

@@ralphkotwica6184 they spot you the charts in the pits. It's apples to oranges

[@ralphkotwica6184]

@@SolveForWhy that’s like saying I bring a sheet that tells me the ranking of each hand at the poker table… ie(high card…. Pair….. two pair) and so on…… my point was that casinos turn a blind eye when it comes to poker because they aren’t the ones getting cheated themselves….. that’s like having a tablet at the blackjack table that keeps a running count of every card seen that’s been dealt….. it may not be full proof, but an edge does go to the player in that circumstance……. The casino wouldn’t be so blasé about that sort of thing…… u would be asked to leave, or if It were the 70’s, u leave town with a few less fingers 😂 😂 😂

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

​@@ralphkotwica6184you're absolutely correct. Solveforwhy rebuttal is completely off. I don't understand how they could even use that as a comparison, lol.

[@JD0829-vz6nh]

@@SolveForWhy They spot you charts at the pits because you still lose even with the charts. I can promise you if they actually gave you an edge, they would not allow it. The reason they allow them is to give people the illusion they are getting some edge so the casino gets more action.

[@OsefKincaid]

Everyone who is at a stream table is recorded right? So that's so easy, you don't have to ban any device at any point, just make it illegal to discuss solver outputs / streamed hands during play sessions. And then if someone does it you can hear because they're recorded.

[@tommyfu9271]

"poor Tamaya" give me a break Berkey. This nit box of little skill used his team to help him the main. He's lucky wsop didn't ban his rail and penalize him at the final table As for would Dom have been able to help Leena the same way? Irrelevant. He wasnt helping Leena. That's the point. You should be playing other players and if they aren't that good they shouldn't be allowed have their team of better players helping them especially running software which wsop stated wasnt allowed. Its too late now to not pay him but all 3 should be banned permanently.

[@katiemarshall7531]

The nit box of little skill had 2 mil in live earnings before winning the main. Drop your Hendon Mob, bud, we'll wait 😂

[@tommyfu9271]

@@katiemarshall7531 hahaha the fact you're mentioning the Hendon number is a joke. Hendon shows gross cash not net and I rarely play tournaments I play cash games. As to the nit box of little skill. He had 2 mill in almost 20 years grinding a ton of tournaments each year. 200k in cashes a year when you're entering a shit ton of tournaments is not that much profit. He even was playing back when poker was butter soft. Like I said he's a low skilled nit who cheated and ran super well. If he was a crusher he wouldn't have had to sell a lot of himself in the softest 10k of the year after 2 decades of crushing poker. Thanks for the laugh thought. You sound like Allen Kessler. You do realize a ton of people with millions in cashes are buried lifetime and a ton of people with almost no cashes have done very well in cash games. Hendon lmao He probably made 50-100 k a year net profit from tournaments, then factor in expenses, factor in he sold pieces of himself a lot of the time and you see why he had to sell a lot to play this event. Simply bc he was a low skilled nit who wasn't making much money. Good for him and his cheating friends he won this I guess.

[@tommyfu9271]

@@katiemarshall7531 imagine playing for 20 years, finally hitting the lottery and losing out on MILLIONS OF DOLLARS bc you had to sell a lot of yourself since risking a few thousand more dollars (which is such a negligible amount of money for anyone good a t tournaments who has played them for 20 years )was such a burden. Yea he was really crushing it these last 2 decades. If you wanna tell me hahah he won this year that's all well and good- he won the lottery. but if you wanna talk about his actual play and winnings from the last 20 years as though they're impressive that's comical. Nobody good is getting backed for this long.

[@noodles6175]

*Lena

[@naswiipp]

​@@katiemarshall7531you just caught a 10-7 round beatdown. Will you make it off the stool?

[@6thwilbury2331]

43:33 Wait... who had this take not allowing Airball to have a buddy in the room? Anyone serious I heard from thought Berkey was in the right on that one. The only people who said otherwise were just people who simply don't like Berkey, and would disagree with him over the color of an orange.

[@johnnyquad6795]

I've got a meeting in the restroom.

[@geraldjruiz333]

Every time I tune in you guys ramble on about nothing until you finally get to the topic at hand 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@RiverTrollinn]

guapo adds so much on the mic would love to hear from him more

[@SolveForWhy]

@@RiverTrollinn 💯

[@RustyWells2]

Well it's out of the wsop hands now the Nevada Gaming is coming and it's not going to be pretty!

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

I hope the Nevada gaming commission steps in, if not, they might be forced to step in with a lawsuit.

[@LowTide941]

They’re not gunna do anything

[@HDsharp]

It's been done before! Except other people have been more discreet

[@mully107]

How much you wanna wager that they do effectively nothing

[@lonibeck2293]

Gaming commission won't do anything all the Mony divided up it's up to tourney director to clarify rules he did absolutely nothing maybe next year

[@grandsewb5452]

What about the rule one player per hand.

[@sirnitsalot]

Totally agree on this. Just ban large electronics from the rail starting next year. Anything beyond that is unenforceable.

[@tommyfu9271]

Sequester the players from the rail and ban electronics. If it's boring for them to watch without their phones then don't watch.

[@jackripper8337]

Isnt this just a problem for the Main Event and maybe a couple other events across the year? Like the WTP Championship and EPT Championship and PCA Championship? Maybe even not the last 2…. I guess I don’t understand why making rules specific to our most important events specifically is a problem…. Just make a rule of no accessing assistant software while clock is running. I would rather just avoid any issues all together than leave some sliver of angles to be shot.

[@codyfisher5100]

Berkey was butt hurt and called someone out for talking in a bathroom on a break

[@allyGunn-r1s]

The simple solution is to stop players interacting with the rail.

[@joevolpe512]

I kind of agree with Pads take. FWIW. Another take. As per Berkey’s comments. In F1, all data and com with the driver is accessible. It’s posted on a separate tv channel. The comments with the driver and his technical team is broadcast. So, they now have to watch what they say. Or have code words that they only know.

[@protatz]

Tortoise is completely right about the tv thing 👌💯💯 spot on

[@cj7139]

Couldn't agree more that Jonathan, Joe, and Dom are being unfairly villainized. But can we please stop referring to the (In the Muck) Villain that raised 5x after two limpers as "Opening"???? Sad day when Guapo has to correct the High Rollers (and Brian).

[@SolveForWhy]

@@cj7139 what would you prefer to call it? Guapo said it was a 3b, idk a world where raising over a limp is called 3-betting

[@cj7139]

@@SolveForWhy Fair enough, "3-betting" is probably more objectively wrong. "Opening" typically implies the first one to VPIP though.

[@henriksenlaw]

I think perception of this type of thing for players who have played for decades and came up in 80s and 90s, prior to online games and when players largely relied on playing experience intellect, wit, observation, pattern recognition, but without training programs, computer simulations, books, etc.

[@grandsewb5452]

And casinos hate card counting you are kicked to the curb.

[@dot333333]

Wow Guapo the part time online player player with the least time spent in the game has the best preflop fundamentals of them all. Who would've thought? *cough*. everyone *cough*... the dirty little not so secret of live poker is that nits have a win rate because so much money goes in pre with weak ranges that nitting it up and not fking up too badly postflop wins. Not the max win rate, but it wins. If your opponent isn't making huge blunders post and you cant specifically articulate how you'll exploit postflop, I see nothing wrong with just playing tighter to just just ensure villains lose long term due to their mistakes on node 1.

[@7kbolding]

Again, can we please get someone to narrate the hand histories for in the much that actually knows correct poker vernacular. The original opener c betting is not a “lead”

[@henriksenlaw]

Just another reason not to play tourneys as a recreation player and leave it to the tourney grinders.

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

Then the tournament regulars will start crying that the main event only has 1,000 players and a small payout, lol.

[@kevinhunt7353]

How much value do you think Dom brought to Tamayo?

[@Lou-Meatskavitch]

Value doesn't really matter and shouldn't even be a part of the discussion.

[@kevinhunt7353]

@@Lou-Meatskavitch Its everything. He got paid to market his brand/solver. The guy folded queens pre then maneuvered perfectly in flow short handed. The cost benefit is astronomical. All over social media. All over poker go. Will be on cbs sports.

[@richardpoplis6777]

How much did bald Mckuen get paid

[@richardpoplis6777]

WTF ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT?? THEY ARE TALKING RUSSIAN.... what cheating took place?

[@DrThoritah]

Did they do anything wrong? I don’t think so. Should there be rules against constant in game coaching and running solves on the rail? Probably.

[@codyfisher5100]

Dude folds queens but raises 83o and your telling me he wasnt assisted. Damn guys you all drop the ball

[@tommyrjensen]

Did you know that while you take a university exam, you can freely use a phone or laptop, and between any questions, you can go and consult your friends to learn about what their answers might be? The reason being that if you were not allowed to do this, it could be too difficult to pass the exam. It is the same in the WSOP, which is why this needs to stay allowed. And btw we have a lot more qualified space scientists and surgeons than we would have otherwise.

[@henriksenlaw]

Yeah I graduated from undergrad and law school many years ago but nothing remotely close to that was permitted.

[@killout18]

Tommy I understand you and often find myself in these spots too. Never say jk, never apologize, if they can't get it, too bad.

[@rmx.indiana8306]

Despicable take from this guy, as usual. Glad I unsubscribed

[@burtondavid1054]

Landon saying FT over and over again is just the most tilting fucking thing I’ve ever heard of my life. I don’t know why it tilts me so much but it’s seriously so cringe just say final table it’s not that much shorter to say FT.

[@henriksenlaw]

Yeah, the unnecessary use of abbreviations is overdone and periodically comes across as a desire to want to be part of a club that has its own special vocabulary.

[@henriksenlaw]

But maybe it’s just common for the under 25 generation who communicate so much through texting, but seems like there is big difference between typing with one’s thumbs quickly on a small screen versus talking to a wide audience during a 2 hour podcast.

[@zordek]

Change that intro its annoying and repeterive

[@proskillr]

35 second intro is wild