Is Turkey Western? (ft. @Money & Macro)

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Into Europe: Turkey is a country with a complicated relationship with the West, since the start of the cold war, it has aligned itself with the United States. But it is an alignment that has pushed it to become increasingly disillusioned, with disappointed hopes of EU accession, and confrontation with its erstwhile allies.
Recent geopolitical developments, like the war in Ukraine, the migration crisis, instability in the Middle East, competition for natural resources in the Eastern Mediterranean, or Sweden and Finland's accession to NATO have put it at odds with Western countries.
It is now looking to chart an independent course, raising the question: Is Turkey part of the West?
Check out Money & Macro's Channel here: / moneymacro
00:00 Introduction
00:43 1-Turkey's Westernisation
02:31 Sponsored Segment
03:38 2- Integrating into the West
04:50 3- Disillusion with the West
08:10 4- Turkey charting its own course
Music:
Epidemic Sounds
© All Rights Reserved.
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Twitter: / europeinto
Patreon: / intoeurope

[@cengizsogutlu]

As a Turk we are east for westeners, west for easterners.

[@walangchahangyelingden8252]

Ah, I think I commented something similar to describe this nation recently.

[@wabalaladabdab]

"West" is not about geography here. It's a set of political values. Seemingly you are (or rather should be) part of the west as nato members and EU candidates, but unfortunately Erdogan is an Islamist dictator, a kind that may as well be in Iran or any other central Asian dictatorships. There's a similar problem with Hungary. And you can see these are the two governments that acting as moles within the west, vetoing the nato expansion or the gas embargo.

[@kaanerdem2822]

@@wabalaladabdab first i want to say i didnt vote for erdogan or approve most of his actions in Turkey. But if it wasnt Erdoğan the Turkish stance between eu would be the same, Turkey will never be allowed to enter eu because the mindset of the western politicians are Turkofobic. We saw this clearly when Turkish f 16 shot down a russian plane few years ago nato wouldnt supply Turkey anti aircraft patriots...

[@wabalaladabdab]

@@kaanerdem2822 Of course I didn't blame you or most Turkish people personally for Erdogan. International trust is very hard and takes long to build, and very easy to erode. I'm unfortunately Hungarian, (I hate Orban) and I can tell, Hungary would have never been admitted to the EU if it applied just a bit later, and it would be kicked out if there was a legal possibility for that. (This is one of the reason why the EU is more cautious now). Honestly, from the vast majority of the European population, I cannot see any racist attitude against Turkish people or Turkey in general (the christian is always racist everywhere, but fuck 'em). But the EU has way too many problems now with an anti-secular dictatorship (Hungary, which is also Putin's ally), and an anti-secular semi-dictatorship (Poland), so anyone who would like to join has to be really convincing that there is no popular support for anything like this, and that the country is super secular, very liberal, democratic, and a reliable ally to the West (eg. doesn't side with Putin in key NATO issues). I really wish Turkey will be such an EU member one day, when the Islamist, authorian, neo-ottoman regime of Erdogan will be merely a bad memory.

[@connormurphy683]

Personally I think of Aegean and thracian Turks as similar to Greeks and balkans, mesopotamian and Eastern Anatolian Turks as similar to Syrians, Iraqis, iranians. It's a diverse country. Anyways i heard the new generation of Turks is against islamism and turning away from religion in general, which is a positive thing in my view

[@RYAN-si8rs]

I'm a British guy who lived in Turkey for three years. There are areas of the country that feel distinctly European, I lived in Antalya and the surrounding area could easily be mistaken for Spain or Portugal. Alternatively, the East and centre of the country feels unquestionably Middle Eastern. I lived in Sakarya also, which is just a 2h drive inland from Istanbul, but seemed completely Middle-Eastern to me.

[@Hzur]

Then you have the villagers/nomads scattered around Anatolia who are almost central Asian than West Asian

[@in5minutes556]

It's easy to say that as a Brit. For you, Turkey means holidays, palm trees, and kebabs. For a Romanian, Greek, Bulgarian, Serb, Armenia, or Kurd Turkey is a genocidal state, a sad accident of history.

[@rossellinirossicalrossc3507]

@@in5minutes556 hmmm, I think anyone can recognise that Turkey feels both European and Middle Eastern, regardless of their country’s history 🤔😂

[@quintessence97]

@@in5minutes556 as if those nations never committed any crimes against their minorities lol

[@in5minutes556]

@@rossellinirossicalrossc3507 yes, the Malvinas belong to Argentina, Belfast is an Irish city, Scotland should be free and London should be independent from England

[@rooibos3857]

Looking from the West, it is Eastern, looking from the East, it is Western. Actually neither Eastern nor Western completely, but it is a blend of both, which brings its beauty.

[@farzana6676]

Turkey is quickly turning into a radical Islamist regime...

[@burakunal3788]

Beauty that comes with its price

[@kevingutierrez9273]

Eurasian or Middle Eastern is the proper termfor these guys.

[@bythemoonlight]

@@kevingutierrez9273 not middle eastern. it's western asia. we turks are asians and we proud that. that's the proper termfor.

[@recep2939]

@@kevingutierrez9273 Eurasian would be the best term for it since "The Middle East" includes widely different cultures. Majority of us do not refuse the Islamic identity but that doesn't make us the same as Yemen or did not enough to put us in the same category with them. We are Eurasians and most importantly, we are Turks, and maybe referencing a really specific culture like ours could only be solved by mentioning its ethnicity (just like Russia).

[@vusaltahmazli6309]

1:25 just to correct your map there, "Hatay" province was not included in Turkey’s borders when the Turkish Republic was founded in 1923 but rather under the French mandate, only until when the local population held a referendum and voted in favor to join back to Turkey in 1939

[@axux4509]

Turkey is Eurasian, has a mixed culture of both regions like its geography.

[@Andre-by4su]

Probably would be more descriptive to call them Euro-Middle Eastern

[@devotionfaith]

@@Andre-by4su Balkan-Middle Eastern would me more accurate, or just Near East

[@akatasakayaki1668]

@@Andre-by4su middle eastern is impossible turks live as asian and european, caucasian but never middle east u better dont talk before visit Turkey

[@jackson1342]

90% of the land is in Asia

[@farzana6676]

@@burakonderuslu679 Turkey has same Islamist cultural mentality as Middle East.

[@HorvardPasha]

At 8:54 the subtitles mismatch with what was told. It's not that Turkey supports the "unrecognized government" in Libya, but the "U.N. recognized". Huge difference xd

[@quintessence97]

Well politically after the Peace Treaty of Paris (1856) Turkey (Ottoman Empire) was recognized as a European country by all other European nations. So since west is a political term we can say Turkey is western. The question of its culture or insides are something else tho

[@52cm]

Let Turkey be Turkey. Turkey is a unique country which shares borders with Europe, Middle East and Caucusus. As a Balkan Turk I believe that we can establish great relations with both western and eastern countries (especially west) and convert our country into a fully democratic nation. Geographically, Turkey can be named as a county in Eurasia.

[@rumeysaongul4765]

Exactly! Why are some people trying to put Turkey into a specific geographical category anyways?

[@rogerdodger8813]

No such thing as a Balkan Turk only a Balkan Convert to Islam, influenced or forced by Turks.

[@advakart4208]

​@@rogerdodger8813 simply wrong. orhan bey started a policy known as iskan. rumelia (the balkans) was to go through islamization and turkification to better be integrated into the empire. in accordance with the iskan policy, infrastructure projects, hospital, mosques and the like were built in islamic fashion and architecture, in an attempt to safeguard these regions as core parts of the empire and further conquests. a part of this policy did include converting already balkan populations to islam (which is why there are a lot of muslims currently in the balkans, especially in bosnia and albania), but there were also many anatolian turks that were forcibly relocated into the balkans. these turks were banned from going back to anatolia and were forced to live in the balkans. centuries later, they were driven out by the newly independent balkan nations back to anatolia, with many of them being killed or dying in the harsh winters while trying to get back to anatolia. people who are referred to as "balkan turks" are either the small minority that managed to stay in the balkans or turks living in modern day anatolia but have ancestry from the turks who used to live in the balkans

[@IsomerSoma]

Turkey used to be a decently healthy democracy but since years it's on a facistoid path towards authoritarianism, theocratic elements, nationalism and imperialism. How can you change that?

[@52cm]

@@IsomerSoma Our GDP was high, buying power was even higher. The person who is our “president” right now did not even finished the university and he is controlling the economy of a G20 country. He acquired billions of dollars by nepotism and controlled the stock market to make more money. They also stashed most of our countries GDP to real estate sector. Most of the Turkish intellectuals were forced to leave Turkey because of the acquisitions. The legislation is now on their side as well. They threw journalists and people who exploited the corrupt government officials. Some of them disappeared and suppressed. I can write 1000 novels with the things they done in 21 years.

[@skullsforerlikkhansthrone9306]

TF is "western" or "eastern" ? We are Turkish, and those utterings dont make much sense here.

[@koktengri8724]

Exactly

[@ShieldAre]

I am reminded of an old polandball comic, where Turkey gets invited to various parties, and Turkey always refuses. When Germany invites Turkey to an European party, Turkey says it is Asian. When Nepal invites it to an Asian party, Turkey says it is European. Venezuela invites it to an atheist gathering, and Turkey says it is Muslim, and Mauritania invites it to an Islamic meeting, and Turkey says it is secular. Balkan or Caucasus, of the Mediterranean or of the Black Sea, mountainous or seafaring, Turkey seemingly hasn't truly accepted itself to have any description, which unfortunately has left it somewhat unfocused and thus isolated. Convinced of enemies all around, Turkey evidently engages in a ruthlessly opportunistic foreign policy, which in turn further makes others distrust it, which further feeds its belief in being surrounded by enemies. It is Western, almost, but it would never admit to it, because to be Western is to involve yourself in things that Turkey prides itself on not being. Yet other definitions have similar baggages, again leaving Turkey to refuse to accept any other definition, either.

[@waseemyasin4475]

Turkey is a independent country and does not bend over

[@RoScFan]

Link to the comic? Sounds like a great comic.

[@ahmadfrhan5265]

I will say this Colonialism has not ended..... it evolved. let me explain. before colonialism " ends " the west chose the leaders of countries to keep their interest in regions take france for example. ( good job KZbin censoring the site where france still steals from Africa ). and take me for example. i am from the middle east and here our " dictators" have been chosen by the west not by us and here they uneducate people Historically , economically and religiously because that's what sustain their rule and my country is rich ,but money is nothing for me and for us muslims in general and here we eat we drink and we sleep ( not me i always study and seek knowledge in all fronts as best as i can and am a civil engineer ) even the cattle eat drinks and sleeps. here courrption is too obvious and we muslims are in phase one and that's " Realization " to be fully aware from politics to history to religion. and every time a Muslim nation rises the west is unsatisfied and want to overthrow the government. Gaddafi,mursi,Yemeni leader Salah , King faisal in the 70s ( he got assassinated) ....etc way a lot i can't go over them all. HOWEVER, before the Arab spring this i admit was not clear to all of us ,but after the Arab spring EVERYTHING WAS CLEAR. we now came to realize misery is built by the happiness of others and our leaders and boarders were chosen and drawn by the west and we must amd will over throw our governments and stop the western intervention in our lands. sorry forgot ( the western people have nothing to do with their governments in fact we are all slaves to this corrupted system we live under " capitalism " or communism both you use " banks" made you know by who i don't have to explain). now about "slavery has evolved" and this time it favors no race only one in fact 👃 and it favors mostly the dollar. we are born to serve and sustain the system and the system milks the life out of us and we gain " invaluable paper money " in return and sometimes we get in debt which is literally an invisible chain in the neck. basically we are living inside bank and the bank choses who succeed and who doesn't and the bank plays with economy and who built it? "the red shield" known as the rothschilds. our muslim lands are the battlefield of the super powers and when you say next time why refugees are in Europe ask yourself what caused them to be there? that's the correct question. Russia is causing the refugee crisis in Europe by bombing the Syrians and helping Assad to kill his people and the refugees are a toy to send them to Turkey and Europe to weaken their economy and make the left wing fight right wing start wars. Russia has an agenda and don't get wrong Russia, china and America/western Europe are fighting for their agenda to who rules who. all of them are trash. now i want to put it in conclusion. " REALIZATION LEADS TO REVALUATION AND REVELATION LEADS TO REVOLUTION " SOMETIMES IT LEADS TO A VERY DIFFERENT R AND THAT'S RADICALIZATION AND THAT HAPPENS WITHOUT BACKBONE. that's why people go far left or far right. because they are weak in character and btw left wing right wing is a toy for the system no matter who wins the system decides everything not the people nor the government. We muslims are in phase one ,but obviously Turkish people has finished phase three. and we look forward to unite with our Muslim brothers and sisters and no islam is not an Arab please don't let me write about it and Arab is not an ethnicity it's a language. the world is Suffering from western imperialism ( not the people unlike you we understand) most people walk with where the wind pushes them am not like that i hope you understand now.

[@ahmadfrhan5265]

The UN is highly western based and most of world countries from Asia to Africa to eastern Europe to south America refuse LGBTQ refuse feminism refuses the banking system refuses the modern slavery ( salve wage ) refuses western subjective vales ,but yet they push it on all of us. using utilitarianism then the west shouldn't be pushing their values on the majority and the majority can take down the west. that's why in political science there's a famous quote " the liberal global order is neither liberal nor global " ( meaning only western based and other countries don't anticipate on it or they will be sanctioned and fought by the west ). also, this is by definition slavery because they tell us what to do and if we refuse, they punish us , starve us or kill us and we have to follow them when they are the minority. so utilitarianism doesn't work and they are enslaving us. what am trying to say is this system is belt on hypocrisy and when Objective moral people start to realize than they will take action and subjectisim will have no answer when the objective moral people start action and they can't say it's " good or bad ". even if objective moral people did wrong the subjective people can't prove it's wrong since it's all subjective. even so atheist can't prove what's good or bad in all topics other than morality. for example, an atheist says to someone you are Bac-kward and that someone says is being Back- ward good or bad ? here they can't really answer. they can't prove being whatever is good or bad. and so on and so on. what am literally saying now will change the world perception and the moral people will take action. it's inevitable. one thing else if they don't have the concept of good or bad of any subject other than morality that means it has no value ( worthless ). for example, asking an atheist is science good or bad ? if he/she did reply with good and bad they can't prove it therefore, it's subjective and has no value at all since they don't have the concept of Good and bad. therefore, all their " facts" ( which are hypothesis not facts ) are worthless if it has no value ( good and bad ). they can't detect which is fact and not if they don't hold on any value and even if they did they can't prove it since it's subjective. We live in a world that ran by subjective people who can't prove their value or the value of anything and can't prove even their subjectivsim and it's value! Yet they have the audacity to tell us what's good or bad and what's valuable and not and what's true and not. also brain is nothing but an organ according to their world view which means they cannot base anything on it and it's all chemical reactions which delude itself on having meaning when there's non which means all their claims as their existence worthless meaningless and untrue. which means they argue for nothing.....

[@ahmadfrhan5265]

about veto members they control everything and They have last word in UN. UN is toy for America and the west to take actions on countries that don't walk on the way they wish and The UN favors mostly USA and The west . the west now is spreading LGBT, feminism, .....etc because these ideologies ( yes they are ideologies) are materialstic and can be easily controlled. plus they want countries to refuse these ideologies do the west and USA declare wars and sanctions on these countries that refuse to apply these subjective ideologies in their lands. you see? they can't prove anything and want to force everything on us ! and guess who divided the world into capitalism and communism? 🤭 do i have to mention them ? add also, that all countries are consumers to the west ( the producer ) and that is why the west is always rich because they refuse other countries to produce their own products or their own weapons because with that money comes then influence comes and they refuse that and that's why they attack and sanction too. unfortunately , we are the playground of superpowers. the west even without Islam rising is digging their own grave since they barely have any children. with Islam they will be annihilated by our raising alone and they will fall easily. if they use nukes , then they will have to live like rats in grounds for the rest of their existence ( that if earth survived ). they will not use it because they stand for nothing therefore, they will not go to that ever.

[@IMPERIALYT]

Incredible collaboration, love the video!

[@a.3375]

Turkey is in such a unique position (the only country in such a dilemma) that they can't be solely categorized to the East or West. They are both.

[@PskovCybercat]

Russia also is in the such position

[@a.3375]

@@PskovCybercat Russia is in Asia and Europe, yes, but I have never seen an ethnic Russian regard themselves as Eastern. But when it comes to Turks, answers always differ. Some say they are just Western. Some say they are just Eastern. Some say they are both. Not talking about geography, but culture, identity, etc. It is a situation seen in no other country.

[@selimsahkulu78]

@@a.3375 as culture, identity they are definitely eastern without doubt

[@e.v3832]

@@selimsahkulu78 not really, western parts of turkey more leaning balkans as culture/lifestyle etc while rest is more leaning to middle east except east black east sea region that is mostly similar caucacus

[@srgeas1292]

@@a.3375 Turks are Anatolian. and they show eastern roman reflexes

[@CengizNoker]

1:19 It's not a genocide, it's a forced deportation from Anatolia. If we had done ethnic cleansing, we would have done it to Albanians, Gypsies, Kurds, Zazas and Circassians.

[@jirachi-wishmaker9242]

Like what happened to so called _Palestinians_

[@CengizNoker]

@@jirachi-wishmaker9242 I don't quite understand what you mean

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

Forced deportations without food or water into a desert, or worse still an ocean qualifies as a genocide. And you know what, I can’t even say anything, since Enver Paşa once said something to the effect of “Don’t blame my subordinates for what’s happening, blame me”. Doesn’t excuse it, but at least I can respect the clarity, also means not everyone *wanted* to commit mass murder.

[@CengizNoker]

@@sulimanthemagnificent4893 This is a complete lie Armenians France America Latin America Europe. and from the Middle East he went to Lebanon. and Enver Pasha did not say such a thing

[@edwardsnowden8821]

Armenians are Asians.

[@sertankacar8594]

The US is weird. They rejected selling arms and weapon systems to Turkiye, and then Turkiye had to buy them from Russia (which was not the best option, but the only option, I think). Then The US was angry at Turkey for purchasing a system from another country that they did not want to sell in the first place.

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

Turkey has been actively using those weapons to do a lot of shit to put it lightly

[@Janoip]

Maybe read why they did it. Also one of the reasons is that Turkey has distanced itself in many points, the tension with Greece is getting bigger, practically all in the EU/Usa see Turkey as the main aggressor. Greece would not like that if Turkey gets more fighter jets against them. The whole thing is a balancing act, like almost everything in geopolitics. Then the Turkish campaign in Europe was extremely unpopular, the refugees & border dispute with Greece, which many felt as if Turkey was already the enemy. France, Greece and others wanted at that time EU sanctions against Turkey, but it was blocked to a large extent by Germany. Then later the cuddling with Putin/Russia, the distrust continues to rise. In Germany, one now worries more and more about the Turkish imams, where some have engaged in espionage & give Erdogan more influence in Germany, partly represent values that we reject, are too extreme. The highlight is now the NATO blockade for Finland/Sweden, although this is so important for the security of the Ballstic States & strengthening of NATO. Here times a comment on what to this I copy: This is not necessary, Turkey gets some offers, but not e.g. the demanded resumption of the Eu accession procedure, which Erdogan demanded shortly after the beginning of the war. Maybe something to help the broken Turkish economy. Should there be no results, Usa, France, Great Britain, Germany etc. will simply conclude normal security treaties with them. The important thing is not that they join NATO, but that they have given up their alliance neutrality. They will now cooperate even more closely with the NATO states. Turkey only isolates itself further in NATO & the next time they want something, the others won't listen. Sweden, Finland and others will vote against Turkey at every misstep of Turkey, vote against Turkey in the UN and other votes. In Eu questions use their veto etc. Turkey is only in NATO because it is strategically so well located, for access to the Black Sea, Mediterranean, some Suez Canal. And just as a base for missions in the Middle East, which are becoming more and more unimportant for the U.S. anyway. And otherwise because Turkey would immediately run to Russia, China in case of a withdrawal.

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

@@Janoip jong un, what do you think about nuking turkey? Tell the US beforehand that you only want to nuke turkey

[@martineden829]

@@Janoip with this current Russian invasion in Ukraine, Turkey's position has gained more importance in regard to geostrategy. I can say that you described the EU as pure as the driven snow yet they're not. the EU has been implementing hypocritical policies for a long time.

[@Stefan-wj6mq]

Turkey is not a Western country, but it's not Arabic either. Historically and culturally it's mostly a Turkic country, but it's not part of the rest of the Turkic world which is uniquely post-Soviet and a part of the Russian sphere of influence. Geography and its isolation from the rest of the Turkic world don't allow Turkey to create a Turkic sphere of influence. Turkey is definitely a Western ally, and this alliance is deeper than the preferences of the current president of Turkey. Turkey is a big and diverse country, and thus, we can call it partly Western/Islamic/Turkic, with the most important part centered around the Bosphorus and Dardanelles that has unbreakable ties with the West, and that alone determines the Turkish alliance with the West. Geography, again, doesn't allow central, Eastern, and South-Eastern parts to prosper economically on the same levels as the Western edge of Turkey. Turkic countries, like the part of the Middle East that borders Turkey, are deeply continental regions, and that alone makes trade much harder.

[@Fuhrerjehova]

Trains.

[@sluchy7962]

We can't be arabic, as we are not arabs.

[@srgeas1292]

We are not a Turkic country. We are the children of Anatolia. and we are the successors of eastern rome

[@Fuhrerjehova]

@@srgeas1292 *the destroyers

[@Quickshot0]

@@Fuhrerjehova Final destroyer perhaps, though there's a series of cast members that are involved with sticking their daggers in to it and gravely wounding it. But in the same light there are quite a series of people who then went off to claim to be the true successor of Rome, and each have their own at least partially justified reason for why. Building your new nation on top of the old, with the olds people is at least partially valid as well I guess. Even if the traditions were perhaps substantially different. In the end I guess there is no real 'true' successor of Rome though. The old Roman ways have died and the peoples went some what different ways, even if greatly influenced by them. So instead if a new large state forms, it will probably be a bit different from Rome. And this too is probably fine, no need to exactly redo history.

[@rasimhelveci6431]

Türkiye is too western to be eastern and too eastern to be western

[@Sirius-Voyager]

You said,1915 events was a Genocide!.Why?. Because Western countries unhistorian parliaments(who even don’t know geography and history of Ottomans) decide so.No evidence,no international courts.But Turkiye opened to archieves.Also Russia has a archieves and there are some evidence about Russian army had a cooperation with Armenian militias, Gangs ( Tashnak,Hınchak etc...) During WW1, Ottomans army fought in many Fronts as Gallipoli,Arabia Deserts,Suveys Channel,Caucasus... When Turkish 3’rd army lost against to Winter conditions with -40 C’ in north east front,and thousands Ottoman soldiers died with summer uniforms.(Because they were not ready to fight in heavy winter conditions, many Ottomans soldiers came from Arabia deserts to Caucasus front) Russia invaded defenceless north east Anatolia with armenian militias gangs who used this situation as opportunist ideas.And Armenians gangs massacred to mostly Kurdish origins villages,some turkish villages in East Anatolia and they tried to cut of Ottomans logistic ways and they assaulted to Ottoman army’s back side in 1915.Also As I said Ottomans were in fronts Gallipoli, Syria,Arabia,Suveys channel ... and East and Middle Anatolia were defenceless situation against to Armenian militia and gangs.And that Armenian gangs used to force to Armenian civilians for betray to Ottomans army.Ottomans army and people beat to Armenian militias, gangs,then deported hundred thousands Armenian civilians to Syria.Unfortunatelly happened to some violence against to Armenian people during deportation.But these violations were not Ottoman State order,but it caused some Local Ottoman officers ,villagers, some of them kurdish origins Hamidiye Alays).Ottoman State judged some Ottoman officers and even executed to Ottoman governor District of Bogazlayan). In summary thousands People(TurksKurds,Armenians) suffered and died in 1915 war conditions.Then After collapsed of Ottoman Empire,France invaded south east Turkiye and Armenian militias and gangs appeared again with cooperated France army between 1918-1922 untill victory of Turkish indipendent war.

[@possiblehistory]

Very surprised to see you guys were Dutch as well, love from another Dutch creator

[@IntoEurope]

I'm actually French, but I've been living in the Netherlands for a while :)

[@ahmadfrhan5265]

@@IntoEurope I will say this Colonialism has not ended..... it evolved. let me explain. before colonialism " ends " the west chose the leaders of countries to keep their interest in regions take france for example. ( good job KZbin censoring the site where france still steals from Africa ). and take me for example. i am from the middle east and here our " dictators" have been chosen by the west not by us and here they uneducate people Historically , economically and religiously because that's what sustain their rule and my country is rich ,but money is nothing for me and for us muslims in general and here we eat we drink and we sleep ( not me i always study and seek knowledge in all fronts as best as i can and am a civil engineer ) even the cattle eat drinks and sleeps. here courrption is too obvious and we muslims are in phase one and that's " Realization " to be fully aware from politics to history to religion. and every time a Muslim nation rises the west is unsatisfied and want to overthrow the government. Gaddafi,mursi,Yemeni leader Salah , King faisal in the 70s ( he got assassinated) ....etc way a lot i can't go over them all. HOWEVER, before the Arab spring this i admit was not clear to all of us ,but after the Arab spring EVERYTHING WAS CLEAR. we now came to realize misery is built by the happiness of others and our leaders and boarders were chosen and drawn by the west and we must amd will over throw our governments and stop the western intervention in our lands. sorry forgot ( the western people have nothing to do with their governments in fact we are all slaves to this corrupted system we live under " capitalism " or communism both you use " banks" made you know by who i don't have to explain). now about "slavery has evolved" and this time it favors no race only one in fact 👃 and it favors mostly the dollar. we are born to serve and sustain the system and the system milks the life out of us and we gain " invaluable paper money " in return and sometimes we get in debt which is literally an invisible chain in the neck. basically we are living inside bank and the bank choses who succeed and who doesn't and the bank plays with economy and who built it? "the red shield" known as the rothschilds. our muslim lands are the battlefield of the super powers and when you say next time why refugees are in Europe ask yourself what caused them to be there? that's the correct question. Russia is causing the refugee crisis in Europe by bombing the Syrians and helping Assad to kill his people and the refugees are a toy to send them to Turkey and Europe to weaken their economy and make the left wing fight right wing start wars. Russia has an agenda and don't get wrong Russia, china and America/western Europe are fighting for their agenda to who rules who. all of them are trash. now i want to put it in conclusion. " REALIZATION LEADS TO REVALUATION AND REVELATION LEADS TO REVOLUTION " SOMETIMES IT LEADS TO A VERY DIFFERENT R AND THAT'S RADICALIZATION AND THAT HAPPENS WITHOUT BACKBONE. that's why people go far left or far right. because they are weak in character and btw left wing right wing is a toy for the system no matter who wins the system decides everything not the people nor the government. We muslims are in phase one ,but obviously Turkish people has finished phase three. and we look forward to unite with our Muslim brothers and sisters and no islam is not an Arab please don't let me write about it and Arab is not an ethnicity it's a language. the world is Suffering from western imperialism ( not the people unlike you we understand) most people walk with where the wind pushes them am not like that i hope you understand now.

[@ahmadfrhan5265]

read degenerate western

[@ahmadfrhan5265]

@@IntoEurope The UN is highly western based and most of world countries from Asia to Africa to eastern Europe to south America refuse LGBTQ refuse feminism refuses the banking system refuses the modern slavery ( salve wage ) refuses western subjective vales ,but yet they push it on all of us. using utilitarianism then the west shouldn't be pushing their values on the majority and the majority can take down the west. that's why in political science there's a famous quote " the liberal global order is neither liberal nor global " ( meaning only western based and other countries don't anticipate on it or they will be sanctioned and fought by the west ). also, this is by definition slavery because they tell us what to do and if we refuse, they punish us , starve us or kill us and we have to follow them when they are the minority. so utilitarianism doesn't work and they are enslaving us. what am trying to say is this system is belt on hypocrisy and when Objective moral people start to realize than they will take action and subjectisim will have no answer when the objective moral people start action and they can't say it's " good or bad ". even if objective moral people did wrong the subjective people can't prove it's wrong since it's all subjective. even so atheist can't prove what's good or bad in all topics other than morality. for example, an atheist says to someone you are Bac-kward and that someone says is being Back- ward good or bad ? here they can't really answer. they can't prove being whatever is good or bad. and so on and so on. what am literally saying now will change the world perception and the moral people will take action. it's inevitable. one thing else if they don't have the concept of good or bad of any subject other than morality that means it has no value ( worthless ). for example, asking an atheist is science good or bad ? if he/she did reply with good and bad they can't prove it therefore, it's subjective and has no value at all since they don't have the concept of Good and bad. therefore, all their " facts" ( which are hypothesis not facts ) are worthless if it has no value ( good and bad ). they can't detect which is fact and not if they don't hold on any value and even if they did they can't prove it since it's subjective. We live in a world that ran by subjective people who can't prove their value or the value of anything and can't prove even their subjectivsim and it's value! Yet they have the audacity to tell us what's good or bad and what's valuable and not and what's true and not. also brain is nothing but an organ according to their world view which means they cannot base anything on it and it's all chemical reactions which delude itself on having meaning when there's non which means all their claims as their existence worthless meaningless and untrue. which means they argue for nothing.....

[@ahmadfrhan5265]

@@IntoEurope now about Democracy it gives the rights to everyone specially the degenerated and rights for lobbyists who play on the country's affairs in and out and rights for people with bad intentions to reach powerful positions and divide the country in left and right and make the country stand for nothing and destroys the identity of the people ( civilization ) sound fimilar? Historically speaking all countries and civilizations stood for something and if you tolerate everything than you stand for nothing. in order for a civilization to stand against hardship and all waves they need to stand for something and democracy and secularism doesn't offer this in fact both are hypocritical systems and subjective. Democracy is Hypocrisy as i explained why above. in nowhere that secularism is " good ".

[@musicxxa6678]

Turks are just extremely disappointed. West played with them. There is too much enemity and Turkish people feel all the hostility coming from west. Western media is extremely manipulative and western people are mostly ignorant about this country.

[@PoliticalEconomy101]

Great. His next video will be on: Optimum Currency Areas (OCA), the Eurozone, spatial inequality, real exchange rate adjustment, internal devaluation, competitiveness, convergence, the impossibility trilemma, the macro-imbalances procedure (MIP), institutional barriers to mobility, and the economics of European integration. Cant wait!

[@holtshady]

Nice video. Maybe some pre ottoman history (roman, eastern roman\byzantine) would shine some more light on how any country in this area tends to have to operate a balancing act of interests

[@watershed8685]

At 10:00 there’s a mismatch with subtitles in “the U.S.” part. Overall, a good introductory video. I hope sometime in the future you could delve deeper into many aspects of Turkish public sentiment: values (including atomization and compliance with the state agenda) collective memory and worldview with age differences. I think it’s important because Turkey seems to share some similarities with Russia in regards to the listed criteria, the same that appear to have played a decisive role in Russia’s most recent history. Also, I think it would be useful to ponder upon Turkey possibly embracing a role of agent of chaos in increasingly disorderly world, in an attempt to become a great power in its own right, as well as its nascent and, IMO, underutilized partnership with Israel. Just some ideas floating in my inexpert mind. P.S. I think it’s first time we see your face on a channel video? Anyway, keep showing it:)

[@Handle0108]

I don’t see a future with Israel, it’s a partnership that lasted for a while but I think that Israel will be increasingly cornered by the Muslim countries including Turkey in the future. There’s only so much “partnership” that can be maintained with a state that is a colonial occupier which continues ethnic cleansing and that is opposed by much of the people that surround it.

[@powasjington4262]

I also noticed that Turks in America tend to mix with Central Asians a lot. Seems that they can easily learn Turkish within several months or a year.

[@turan2815]

Our languages are similar i can understand them all 🇹🇷=🇦🇿🇰🇿🇰🇬🇺🇿🇹🇲

[@koktengri8724]

@@turan2815 Tengri biz menen

[@RAPTOR1]

This is because most Central Asians already speak Turkish as their mother tongue, they only speak different dialects of Turkish. Like American English and British English, Turkish is a language spoken from the Balkans to China.

[@kevingutierrez9273]

In that case, then Turks are simply westernised Central Asians.

[@rogerdodger8813]

Turkish is an Asian Language.

[@hurriyetuludr3737]

Turkey was also involved in the Yugoslav Wars. But the Kurdish militants aren’t exactly allies of the rest of the west, they are considered as terr0rist organizations by the NATO and EU, and only supported because they fight ISIS, and “anti erdo”. But again, both Turks in Turkey and Northern Cyprus are pro-West; even though they don’t consider themselves so. They are dependent on the West, and some realize that the reason why Turkey isn’t in a average middle eastern shthole situation, is because of Westernization, modernization and laïcism carried out by severals governments and juntas.

[@calasalos]

Turkey must choose what it wants to become: a nationalist country with nostalgic, revanchist, ideals (like Russia and China) ruled by an autocrat like Erdogan, or a proper democratic country respectful of human rights and the rule of law. As an external observer I see that its leaning more and more toward the first option.

[@krtlkrtl8903]

Armanian first prime minister Hovannes Kaçaznuni's report to Taşnaksutyun party in Bucherest on 1923, published as "The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun) has Nothing to do Anymore" In his book, he opposes the Armenian nationalist theses unilaterally put forward, argues that the Dashnaksutyun administration was as guilty as the Turks in the disasters of 1915 and 1920, mentions the massacres of Muslims by the Armenians, and argues that the Dashnak party should now dissolve itself.[2] This Report was banned in Armenia after it was presented by the Dashnaksutyun Party in Bucharest in 1923, and its translations after it was put into a book in different languages ​​were collected from many libraries in Europe and destroyed.[2] This book, which is widely discussed among the Armenians of the world, was discovered by Mehmet Perinçek in the Lenin Library in Russia and published by Kaynak Publishing in 2005.

[@h4ze531]

1:10 lol dude Ottoman Empire was much bigger 😂

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

On paper. In practice it wasn’t much bigger then that.

[@koktengri8724]

@@sulimanthemagnificent4893 Bruh Ottoman have half of hungary and all of wallachia. Its much bigger than that.

[@sulimanthemagnificent4893]

@@koktengri8724 It wasn’t, Half the size of Rome? No, bigger but not “that” big.

[@bythemoonlight]

@@sulimanthemagnificent4893 "kağıt üzerinde" iki saattir ona gülüyoruz iş yerindeki arkadaşlarla. iskender diye birinin "bilinen dünyayı" ele geçirdiğini falan da düşünürsün sen şimdi. ha ha ha adam basbaya kağıt üzerinde dedi lan ha ha ha.

[@alpacamaster5992]

The turkey is like its most significant city of Istanbul, the bridge between the west and the ease both asian and european

[@080ization]

Constantinople is truly a gem!

[@080ization]

@DarkXlord it's CONSTANTINOPLE whether you like it or not.

[@080ization]

@DarkXlord wont make anyone respect anything. That's on them. Plus I didn't bring the religion thing in the talk. You are assuming things. Go do a military drill. You will need it " bro"

[@precursors]

@@080ization What are you, 15? 😂😂

[@080ization]

@@precursors you seem a bit confused. 🤡🇹🇷🤡

[@christonngoveni8438]

But if Georgia is European so is Turkey, problem is Turkey is Muslim majority while Europe is Christian majority. One major factor to this topic

[@quidam_surprise]

Georgia and Turkey are both transcontinental Eurasian countries with the vast majority of their respective territories in West Asia.

[@ivanmacgar6447]

Yes, I agree with this. If Georgia, Armenia and Cyprus are European, then by sheer logic so is Turkey (and Azerbaijan). Only some top notch mental gymnastics have to be played to consider Georgia or Armenia to be European but not Turkey or Azerbaijan.

[@Arcaryon]

Turkey is Turkish. It’s not Arabic, nor is it European.

[@exosproudmamabear558]

Turkish are an unique mix of Middle easterns and Bizantian Greeks with Turkic flavors. We are all of them but also neither of them.

[@gokceaksoy8094]

Herhangi bir bölgeyi ya da kimliği bir milletle karşılaştırmayın Karşılaştırmalar böyle olmaz Dediğin absürt duruyo

[@3harfli]

As a Turk, our culture is a mixture of europe, asia and unfortunately middle-east. We are originally central asians and anatolians.

[@koktengri8724]

I am not a looser anatolian, speak for yourself.

[@koktengri8724]

@@3harfli %100 Türküm

[@nurdemirtas9354]

@@koktengri8724 Yaşadığın coğrafya Anadolu bal gibi de looser anatoliansın :)

[@koktengri8724]

@@nurdemirtas9354 O zaman amerikalılarda amerikada yaşadığı için kızılderilimi oluyor? Ahahaha mantığa bak. Biz burayı fethederek almış Türkleriz, anadolulu felan değiliz.

[@Sami-gi1ld]

@@3harfli pls don't call yourself a Turk

[@KhaalixD]

Amazing video quality per usual, also love seeing you team up with m&m. Hope to see much more from you 2 in the future! The only feedback I would have is that I ask you to try to use the same recording set-up, it's a little annoying having the audio profile changing every 15 sec

[@IntoEurope]

Thank you! Yes, will do!

[@grizzlybearzzz2824]

When i lived there its like the us in the pre civil rights movement. There is a desire to be western and European but then there erdogan. End of story

[@Sami-gi1ld]

Really civil rights you say? were the leftist want to kick out the refugees

[@Micha-qv5uf]

Good video but it felt a little bit as if it just stopped in the middle. There wasn't really a conclusion or outro in the end. Just some constructive criticism. I really like your channel and your videos.

[@ilyasemredurmus4432]

In Turkey, there is a cultural warfare between islam and secular ideology. Last 20 years islam win (of course erdogan) this battle. There is nothing more to say.

[@ij4674]

It started before 20 years, banning of headscarf for example (even western countries never did that.) Also Secular in what sense and Islamic in what sense. Before him, there was a ban on a rlgs practice - scarf, now have freedom to wear it or not. - that's usually considered a part of functioning secular country. In Tky and France, Seclrsm has a another meaning of Anti rlgn.

[@ilyasemredurmus4432]

@@ij4674 Wearing headscarf not banned. It was forbidden only in government buildings. I say islamic because of for example Erdogan claims his economic policies come from Quran and he has very opposite opinon about republic and secular state.

[@ij4674]

@@ilyasemredurmus4432 Even just in govt buildings and educational institutions, that's something that don't happen in US or UK or Germany.

[@ij4674]

@@ilyasemredurmus4432 His economic policy is to cut interest rate to make exports more easier and increase industrial output, at the expense of decrease in prior std of living. He don't claim that, he claim that interest rate is unislamic, - which is an incomplete fact in that context. Also the economic system envisioned by Islam is drastically different from the current existing one. Turkey is only Islamic in the sense that ''identity" is now openly and actively promoted by ruling class along with pan turkic identify - and rightfully so if Turkey want something bigger than it in the world stage. Turkey was considered as a secular success model for other ME countries to emulate during his earlier period of rule. Not the anti rlgs seclrsm.

[@umutneo]

@@ij4674 Ban on islamic clothes comes from Turkey’s start. A country needed to leave religion out of government businesses for sake of creating seculat constution, law and people. Ottoman Empire was ruled by religion rules like cutting hand of a thief etc. It’s modernization needed a revolution hence religious things were forbidden. It was necessary at the time, however you could argue if it was necessary now. On my personal point of wiev all religions are BS but if it does not harm other people in anyway it could be allowed. But this kind of secularism accepted by all government instution because of fearing things like religious uprisings, or organizations that made coup attempt(which Erdogan was working with them until not long ago). In the end it was de-arabization.

[@yay-cat]

I’d like to know more about Turkey’s relationship to the east (I just watched a video from Caspian Report and would love to know more). Like will the rail corridor across turkey connect china’s belt and rail to the European core rail network?

[@NessieAndrew]

This video gives Victoria 3 development diary vibes.

[@glycerin3179]

The current government, its ideologies and its position will be completely irrelevant in 1 or 2 years. They re going to lose the next elections and the main opposition parties are willing to be a part of the eu. So in my opinion the answer is yes. But firstly, we need to solve the problems in the land and THEN consider the eu.

[@wile123456]

Nationalism and fascism is on the rise everywhere in Europe, I fail to see how it's going to be irrelevant when the ideologies keep resurfacing despite it's moral and practical failures.

[@zedero8]

If you actually bother to read the manifesto and the statements of the other parties, you will see that they are not that different. Especially on the foreign policy front.

[@zedero8]

@elserble Who said anything about giving Cyprus to Greece? How about you stop your occupation in Northern Cyprus in order for the whole island to unite under a bi-national federal system? How about you recognize that your claims in the Eastern Mediterranean hold absolutely no value because they disregard international law and they are so ridiculous that they give the waters under Crete and those surrounding Rhodes to you? How about you stop oppressing the Kurds in your own country in order to stop being fearful of a rebellion? How about you stop your unilateral actions in Syria without the consultation of other NATO members? How about you stop buying Russian weapons and trying to play the middle man in the recent conflict? How about you put some sanctions against Russia? How about you stop sending migrants to die in the Aegean and stop supporting human traffickers? How about you stop threatening the EU with unleashing hordes of armed migrants in the border? How about you stop blocking Sweden’s and Finland’s bids to join NATO, because of your egotistical demands regarding the dropping of sanctions from the US and allowing you to get weapons that you’re currently not allowed to get? How about you stop supporting Palestinian terrorist organizations and ISIS? How about you start recognizing your past warcrimes and genocides against various minorities? How about you start allowing journalists and opposition to do their job instead of jailing them? How about you give women rights under the Istanbul convention again and stop acting like a third world islamist country? How about you let the Cypriots in the Northern part of Cyprus hold a referendum on reuniting with the Republic of Cyprus? How about you stop sending settler to Northern Cyprus?

[@Quickshot0]

@elserble Isn't the current Cyprus matter more about how to reunify the island in a reasonable manner? I think the Greek side of things has since faded away a bit. And obviously terrorism is a problem, hopefully a good way can be found to resolve the matter. So at least at the base level I don't think various countries see that differently. Though how to best deal with it has evolved a bit over the centuries, though admittedly a solution that always works doesn't exist... so it's complicated in the end I guess.

[@abadairshi]

When Germany the biggest EU country with the most seats in Parliament has a population of 83 million, a country of 85 million like Turkey is too much to swallow. No European country would want us get the most seats in the European Parliament. South Cyprus didn't meet the Copenhagen criteria at all. Due to Greece's blackmail to block the accession of Central and Eastern European countries, the Greek part of Cyprus was accepted as a member state despite it being unable to meet the Copenhagen requirements. You're not the brightest if you think that this is just a matter of meeting the EU criteria.

[@frksnp2]

There is no Armenia Genocide, just simply think about a Empire that lasts approximately 600 years and never try to kill any ethnic or culturel things, if that happened in thoose conquered lands no people talking in their main language etc. This is just a political pressure that keeps 'Wests' political hand strong against Turks i mean us .

[@junadium]

"The people's origin and religion is Eastern" - What are you trying to say? Europeans mostly come from the same place the Turks come from and Christianity (the dominant religion in Europe) is also an EASTERN religion from the MIDDLE EAST...

[@murattarikturhan]

Actually we are neither western nor eastern and also neither southern nor northern. We are on the land that the center of the world which tens empires existed on it like Osmanlı, Selçuklu, Bizans, Rome and other old anatolian empires. But eventually we are the Türk which came from Asia. Yep nobody invited us to these land. And also nobody gifted it. We took it.

[@TheUnknownNumber9]

And soon u ll go back to the steppes where you belong😉

[@rogerdodger8813]

I doubt you or the the average Turk is related to the actual Asian invaders. They Turkified the native populations of Asia Minor and Modern Turkey is a mixture of all who have lived there in the past. It's sad to see that Celebrations of Turkey always start with a conquest. No other country does that! Like the British celebrating the Norman invasions and forgetting all who were there before them.

[@murattarikturhan]

@@rogerdodger8813 You were imposed with the misinformations about us by the Türk haters. Also we do not pay attention other nations celebrations and also their opinion regarding us. Because we know what we are. I can write lots of things regarding the Türk history but eventually your thoughts and bias will not change. the best ? be respectful.

[@IsomerSoma]

@@murattarikturhan There are some strong linguistical and cultural connections to east/central asian turk ethnicities, but there's almost no genetic link (anymore). Some sure, but not very significant other than in proofing that large scale Immigration has taken place in the past. Turks are more arabic/ caucasian than genetically related to e.g. Uyghurs. Of course as an ethnic nationalist with one foot in facistoid ideology you won't accept this but maybe i am wrong and you'll reconsider your point of view. Human history and mating over extended periods of time isn't as linear as ethnic nationalists would like to believe.

[@normanclatcher]

​@@rogerdodger8813 "Britain" is itself an old Latin name for the land, so your argument disparaging the Norman conquest (lol) isn't exactly watertight.

[@georgios_5342]

Hagia Sophia Mosque sounds as weird as saying "Great Wall of China but not actually Chinese"

[@rogerdodger8813]

I wonder why they use the Greek name???

[@IsomerSoma]

@@rogerdodger8813 That's a latin name.

[@rogerdodger8813]

@@IsomerSoma wrong fool Its Greek! Sophia is a Greek name

[@Dr-Ekmek]

@@rogerdodger8813We own it.

[@sparkyown]

geeen troep hoor, goede content ga zo door makker

[@haroonlegends567]

What do you mean by "unreliable"? What Reliability? This is just damn propaganda and is anti-Turkish!

[@tomAkelife-ff9tf]

perhaps a reference to turkey sending drones to ukraine military and closing the black sea straits to Russian vessels but not sanctioning Russia and having purchased military equipment from Russia

[@haroonlegends567]

@@tomAkelife-ff9tf Closing black sea to an empire is shooting in the foot!

[@svetlana38]

Investigate the barbarism museum. Look at the innocent Turkish mothers and children killed in the bathroom

[@adonisarmanazi5346]

this whole region is like that. Syria and Lebanon had hundreds of years ot Italian influence, and the Christians of Syria and Lebanon copied almost everything Europeans did, then came the French mandate that accentuated the influence even more. I would argue the whole of East Mediterranean basin is a mixture of the orient and the west.

[@direnius]

Different from them though, Turkey (the Ottomans) have always been a powerhouse and a trend setter in the region. And while all of the countries you mentioned were occupied or colonized in one way or the other, Turkey was never occupied nor colonized by the West. It was on equal terms, fighting on equal grounds. Sometimes it lost, sometimes it won, and in each instance both were heavily influenced by one another. Hence the complex relationship with the West.

[@adonisarmanazi5346]

@@direnius before the ottomans was even created Syrians also ruled an empire that spanned Europe, traded with Europe and allied with countries of Europe. and I'm speaking for more than 7 decades. not to mention the Greek settlements that existed in the region and got only kicked out by the ottomans. they left a huge mark. the crusaders left also a signature. in Syria and Lebanon they still have European descendants of the crusaders, even full villages. the Levant is truly a connection of East and West and the current culture of Syria and Lebanon proves it.

[@adonisarmanazi5346]

@Colchonero Italiano Macaroni at one point they got some sort of protection and great relations with a kingdom from Tuscany

[@adonisarmanazi5346]

@Colchonero Italiano Macaroni tbh I forgot because I learned it back in my school but it was during the ottoman rule. the Lebanese and the Syrians asked for Tuscany help to get rid of the ottomans, they failed but the Levant became the safest region for European merchants to trade and it became an exchange hub of culture specially with Italy. for example if you visit the Levant you'll see Italian influenced architecture, this is the Italian influence I'm talking about. and that's why traditional building here are way different than other regions like in turkey or Egypt.

[@adonisarmanazi5346]

@Colchonero Italiano Macaroni be advised that in history books you'll see only Syria mentioned but back then Lebanon was integral part of Syria. so technically it's Syria and Lebanon

[@egelisk4943]

If our religion is eastern, which one is western? Judaism and Christianity are also eastern by your definition. Jesus was a Middle Eastern dark dude. WTF.

[@avapangeayt2397]

I was about to give a thumbs up, but when I saw the Armenian genocide propaganda, I gave up. We have rightly migrated them from eastern Anatolia, we cannot hurt innocent people because it is a sin in our religion.

[@7Hellzz]

Turkey is neither european and neither middle eastern. It is a mixture of both.

[@skp8748]

Tell me more how the basque is similar to Yorkshire or how Belgrade is like Barcelona 😂

[@yazidAlbassel-ci1xq]

Turkey is middle eastern

[@mertkaracayil]

Islam and democracy don’t work together. This is turkeys current issue. Turkey will never be western. Only a very small number of people are western in the country and the rest are religious and dont understand the modern world. It is a very complicated country to change its origins. I do wish turkey will be nation like Europe one day but it is very unlikely when religion has a strong presence in the country and of course its just not the religion there are many other things to complicated to talk here.

[@Mouse22Critical]

Hmm, maybe I have a bad hearing but I thought the rulers of Ottoman Empire were the sultan but the sultan of Ottoman Empire claimed the title of Caliph, meaning domestically the governing person of Ottoman Empire were Sultan since Caliph is more of a religious title.

[@seans6999]

Wowow just realized you and money and makro have the same background!

[@holkholkman]

As a Kemalist and secular Turkish youth, I am extremely sick of the hypocrisy of the west! The EU and the US supported the Islamists against communism, supported the "Mujahideen" in Afghanistan and politicians like Erdogan in Turkey. The USA supported the CIA-backed Gülen Movement, which was trying to infiltrate Turkey. When Erdogan came to power in 2003, everyone loved Erdogan. After all, the old anti-democratic, statist, Turkish nationalist, secular and revolutionary Kemalist state no longer existed. Of course, for the benefit of the West, it needs to support politicians like Erdogan. Together with the Fetullah Gülen movement, he imprisoned Kemalist commanders and even the Chief of General Staff, İlker Başbuğ, with false lawsuits. Erdogan sat down at the peace table with the PKK, and the PKK got stronger in eastern Turkey. Turkey is keeping millions of Syrians in its country for the security of the EU.

[@KadirAksu28]

Turkey did not have a civil war in the 1920's. It had it's independence war against other imperial occupying forces and their allies.

[@rogerdodger8813]

It should have certainly had a civil war. This is a the cleansing of any country.

[@AnonymousBrendan]

turkeys the nation that's both western and non western it's society was founded as a western country but for the last 500 years has been going through a process to make it more islamic i honestly see the broader turkish world as it's own civilization entirely of systems that work like the west but systems that work like the east also i see turkey as a future world power or super power because if they ever formed an empire the could use there likeness with the rest of europe and the middle east to create something truely impressive

[@quintessence97]

Alsoi, Turkey's westernization didn't start with Ataturk but with Mahmud II who made major reforms of westernization and making the Empire more European

[@abadairshi]

When Germany the biggest EU country with the most seats in Parliament has a population of 83 million, a country of 85 million like Turkey is too much to swallow. No European country would want us get the most seats in the European Parliament. South Cyprus didn't meet the Copenhagen criteria at all. Due to Greece's blackmail to block the accession of Central and Eastern European countries, the Greek part of Cyprus was accepted as a member state despite it being unable to meet the Copenhagen requirements. It's not just a matter of meeting the EU criteria.

[@Jewzi123]

Turkey would never be accepted in the EU bc of it weak economy ( even Ukraine can’t join the EU for at least 15 years “if it’s economy gets better” as noted by France recently ) the French are also commuting an inquisition against its Muslim minority bc it couldn’t overcome its catholic hatred of Islam ( in short there is no such think as western values in Europe , Europeans have always had a racist village mentality , western values can only be founded in the USA 🇺🇸 ) its multicultural , tolerant , progressive , no collective punishment mentality ) finally Erdogan is central left Islamist he hasn’t imposed any Islamic law by contrast in Poland you have a Christianist right wing government that have imposed religious law in Poland that affects women rights , you also have right wing Christianist influence in the US imposing there Christian values that affects women rights such as operation , in Greece you have areas where women are banned for religious reasons these areas are larger then pairs , Erdogan welcomed all refugees regardless of religion or race by contrast in the EU Eastern European countries like Poland , Slovakia Czech Republic banned Muslim refugees , thus please don’t tell me about western values there is no western values in most European countries it’s little village values who love to lecture other nations about human rights and civility as a form of superiority .

[@menelaosdietis9370]

Turkey needs to change their way of thinking. A country that always looks back to remake the empire they had in the past, IS ALWAYS Dangerous. Turkey and Civil rights are not friends. Turkey and freedom of speech are not friends. Turkey and human rights are not friends. These are the main reason Turkey will never join EU. No EU country trust Turks. Sure economy is also part of it but nowhere near to the above.

[@Joseph-qd9ew]

@@Jewzi123 Well I don’t support hating anyone including Europeans this is how it feels to me as an American-Canadian. I think Europeans think that the North America-Europe alliance is against Islam. Well as a North American we are not against Islam, but we are against theocracy and dictatorship. It’s a big difference. In the Barbary Wars the USA made clear that it does not want to be considered a crusader. You are right, Turkey is probably more secular than many of these “Western” countries.

[@abadairshi]

@Colchonero Italiano Macaroni Nothing will change even when we send Erdoğan away.

[@yasintokat2268]

Turkey is Turkey. Not eastern, nor western, not Asian, nor European, or Middle Eastern. The banality of the arguments of some "geopolitical experts" from the distant parts of the world is so bad... Well, Turkey is a culturally and genetically diverse country. It is really idiotic to try to narrow things down in an attempt to categorize everything. Let Turkey be on its own in this matter.

[@vlkngrt8805]

As a Turk from central anatolia. I am not a western or eastern. I am Turk. Whereever I go they know I am Turk. They do not say arabic , german or chineese.

[@armchairwarrior963]

Originally it was a Eastern Country, Their ancestors come from China/Mongolia/central asia but eventually living within the west turn western, still have a eastern soul.

[@moin7427]

This is so bad take, if you look at the DNA composition of the Turks, majority of them share their DNA have significant amount of Italian, Greek and Balkan elements and then central Asian, barely any Turks get Mongolian/Chinese in their DNAs. I don't know where you did the research but that is simply not true at all.

[@danesovic7585]

I would say that parts of Turkish population and territory are European and pro-Western. Others are more comfortably Middle-Eastern.

[@NotnooblyOfficialchannel]

This split isn’t very good for a country if it’s half one enemy and half another enemy it will cause the country to collapse

[@_kurdi_47]

Kurdish part is middle eastern, Kurdistan belongs to middle east. And east-"Turkey" is Kurdistan.

[@OmerSadkAytac]

@@_kurdi_47 but European people never let easterners get any land without their approval so.. maybe try creating a Kurdistan in Sweden? They seem very willing.

[@_kurdi_47]

@@OmerSadkAytac create Kurdistan in sweden? Since when did sweden stole land from Kurdistan? Thats What Turkey did.

[@turan2815]

70 % are Asian 30 % european

[@B13.B13]

we live with 20.000.000 kurds and 15.000.000 arabs, they were 90% in southeastern of Türkiye but especially after Erdoğan bring millions of arabs immigrants now they are everywhere.. our arab lover goverment started to add arabic language for them in schools, in hospitals, everywhere and made them citizen for the elections which is must be in next year if erdoğan not open war with greece for run away from elections!! he ask them vote for him.. I dont know to where my country going.. not a good way I am afraid.. we secular turks are suffering since 20 years, erdoğan f.d up everything in our country, culture, money, economy, education.. he will go next year of I am afraid a civil war waiting for my beautiful, alone country.

[@gokceaksoy8094]

Kurdish population is much more and the population of the Arabs is not more than 3 million if we do not count the refugees

[@B13.B13]

@@gokceaksoy8094 yes my mistake about kurds, they are more but we do count refugees because most of them made citizen for their votes. Even they added arabic as you see everywhere, at past you could see just turkish and english now you see arabic.. do you think they put all these just for 3 millions arabs on southeastern side? Even they opened school in izmir, students and teachers are syrian or other arab nations. Hatay belediye başkanının 5 - 10 yıl içinde başkan arap olacak çünkü türk nüfusunu geçecekler demecini okudunuz mu? Hastanelerde doğum oranı günlük 2 türk bebeğe karşılık 10 arap bebeğe çıktı çocuk başına para da veriyorlar üstelik.. bunlar burada kalırsa yaklaşık kaç yıl sonra biz azınlık hale düşeriz sizce?

[@fspfspfs]

There is no such thing as the Armenian Genocide. This is all about the perception operation of the Armenian-backed media.

[@Valthonia]

Pretty bad subtitle mismatch at 8:22: Should be 'UN recognized government', not 'unrecognized'.

[@lost_places_global9008]

Just wait until Erdogan ist gone and all will be better again.

[@cjohnson3836]

Erdogan, like all dictators and strong-men, are products, not causes. Erdogan being gone won't change the underlying problems that lead to him being him. Racism still exists. Both from Europe against Turks, and inside Turkey against its ethnic minorities. Islamophobia still exists. Old grudges still exist. Austrian politicians, in denying Turks membership into the EU, justified their veto by invoking the old wars between Ottomans and Habsburgs. As if the rest of Europe itself wasn't slaughtering each other during that same time. Or that the unification of people under the Ottoman rule wasn't the inevitable result of repeated Christrian invasions into the "holy lands". Nothing Turks were doing Europe wasn't also. The Turkish Republic only exists because Greeks and Italians still haven't gotten over losing control of Anatolia and wanting to reconquer its people. Europe, as a whole, still sees Istanbul as Constantinople and the Aya Sophio as a church. Even though it hasn't been for 600 years, get over it (and aren't Europeans supposed to be secularists, anyways?). Europeans still want to drive Turks from the Mediterranean and this is really the underlying conflict behind why Turkey won't leave Cyprus. Yet Europeans enable people like Erdogan because they need him shielding them from the refugees Europe and the US created. Because Europeans, for all their talk of human rights, can't stomach Syrians and Afghans living in their white people neighborhoods. Turkey's dependency on Russia fossil fuels is criticized while they've been trying to become independent this whole time while the Germans have only just woken up to reality. Yet, for their attempts, Turks continue to have Europe torpedo their efforts (see previous comment about Europeans trying to drive Turkey out of the Aegean, and Mediterranean at large).

[@dantetre]

1:11 1683 had much more territory than it is shown on your map.

[@tunahan4418]

No? It never went more western than Algeria and Austria, more northern than ukrain, more eastern than Iran and more southern than Arabian peninsula

[@Cecilia-ky3uw]

@@tunahan4418 It was a bit bigger if I remember correctly, basically all of hungary(and not modern tiny hungary)

[@tunahan4418]

@@Cecilia-ky3uw yeah you seem to be correct

[@zzhex6780]

@@tunahan4418 it was much bigger the ottomans were even bigger than Rome most maps you see are wrong

[@tunahan4418]

@@zzhex6780 that's not true 💀💀

[@rafanadir6958]

Ok, but then I have another question: what about the other states on the Balkans? I mean the Christian ones like Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia that are fully in Europe and share some form of European culture. Are they western in westerners' point of view?

[@SS-dj1yt]

Turkiye is Balkan-Middle Eastern ,no-one in the western Europe or the Americas view it as western.

[@MrUraniumProductions]

People who believe in freedom of speech and freedom of press and equal rights belong in the right place.

[@paulwilson8061]

Belong to the wet dreamers

[@darkprofile]

I didnt see Canada accepted Juliam Assange. Freedom of speech and freedom of press is western lies. You couldnt make communist publishings in cold war era in western democracies))) Every country has own national security conceptions and freedom of speech is based on that conception.

[@kablg81]

Turkey is like this: %50 Secular %50 Religious. So if you live in a city or area which has more secular people you feel like you live in a South-Eastern European country, basically a Balkan country. But if you live where religious people are the majority you feel like you live in the Middle East. But I have to add this as well; because Turkey was always a secular country and Turkish Islam is way different than mainstream Islam even our religious people are still much more liberal than the average Middle Eastern and I'm an Agnostic Turkish person saying this. So you can say Turkey is basically where ''The West meets East/ East meets West''.

[@saitamanation2147]

probably 60% religious, 40% secular. Majority is religious

[@cenktoplar8378]

Please please PLEASE Make me look like a western PLEASEEEEEEEE ,I AM BEGGING. CALL ME THAT I AM WESTERN. PLEASEEEEEEEE IM DYING

[@randomdude4207]

I think western Europeans often underestimate how european Turkey actually is. We see the surface which would be the eastern religion and poor quality of life (in comparison to WE, not in general) and just put them in the "Asia" box. But they're really more similar to the balkan nations than one'd think. We should see the turks as the bridge between east and west rather than a part of either.

[@hamlet557]

kzbin.infoANUxgOph6Jg?feature=share And this is the European part of Turkey!!!! Let's imagine what happens outside the touristic traps.

[@belgesel_kesit]

pro shared Çarşamba to prove something@@hamlet557

[@alhazenmediax]

Turkey is both. West needs Turkey.

[@bakiozturk2112]

Our mind is western, hearth is eastern.

[@efeegemen7979]

we are bridge bro, we are bridge

[@gyderian9435]

So I keep hearing mixed comments about Erdogan, can some turkish dude elaborate? How popular would you say he and his policies are? I know that Turkey has a tradition of secularism from Ataturk (i guess? Not sure) But that Erdogan is a pretty radical islamist and keeps winning elections.

[@burcangan]

i think you should also mention Turkeys position as an industrial supplier for eu with the recent supply crisis with china and logistics issues. Turkey relies on western markets but how easy it is for western markets to give up on an industrial powerhose in their backyard?

[@IhaveBigFeet]

Industrial powerhouse with a GDP smaller than that of 8.6 million population of Switzerland alone…

[@FOLIPE]

Europe has many backyards

[@mertroll1]

@@IhaveBigFeet Everybody who is interested in history knows, that only reason why Switzerlands has a high GDP is because it was paid with the marshall plan Dollars and literal nazi gold, so no this comparison is kinda stupid

[@kaan1361]

@@IhaveBigFeet The thing is only Poland and Turkey is capable of replacing China in terms of a industrial supplier role to EU. Turkey has a bit of an uphand to Poland due to reasons of: 1. Turkey already has a developed and ready to work highly diversified industrial complex thus does not require much investments 2. Unfortunately, Turkish workforce is almost free in terms of Euro.

[@kingofbithynia449]

@@IhaveBigFeetare you sure? We recently reached to a trillion and Switzerland is probably around 700 billion

[@_yemraydin]

1:20 This is not a "genocide". This is "relocation". Do not confuse us with some western countries ;)

[@YamalGaseaRuiz]

As a Spaniard I can say that Turkey is a completely western European country.

[@bengiyardimli1925]

Well yes the Ottoman Empire was ruled by a dynasty. But originally it had nothing to do with the institution of the caliphacy. That title was much later adopted once the ottoman territory included the holy lands of Islam and the sultan became the caliph as well. Imagine the Hapsburg dynasty capturing the Vatican and deciding to become pope as well.

[@TheBlogofDimi]

As I have personally experienced the country, regarding the culture rather than the periodic politics, it’s Western on the east and south coasts as well as certain big cities, and Eastern in the hinterland.

[@zccau2316]

The Ottoman Empire never saw it self as an Islamic Empire. If anything they saw themselves as successors to the Roman and Byzantine Empire hence the Ottoman claim to Roman succession by calling themselves Kayser-i Rûm

[@tomAkelife-ff9tf]

and sunni Islam was the official religion of the Ottoman empire

[@SirCprice]

That is just wrong…

[@user-ir7og3lx2d]

@@tomAkelife-ff9tf And the emperor the caliph.

[@user-ir7og3lx2d]

They saw it as an Islamic Empire, also the successors to the rome, both ain't mutually exclusive.

[@zccau2316]

@@tomAkelife-ff9tf They can be sunni while at the same time think they are the successors of caesar

[@tunahan4418]

Btw turkey's history is older than that. If you're talking not only pre Turks but also with them. The first Turks arrived around the year 800.

[@egelisk4943]

At 5:07, Turkey is not occupying Northern Cyprus. Northern Cyprus is a state that has military backup from Turkey.

[@IntoEurope]

A de-facto state, not a de-jure one, and one that Turkey colonizes and interferes in.

[@alistairmicha7425]

As a Turkish Person I define myself as Eurasian for a short answer when my foreign friends wonders and asks questions like "where do you feel belong to?"etc...

[@cjohnson3836]

I find the premise of the this video to be strange. Why do we need to box Turkey into a definition based on contrasts (east vs west)? Even "The West" is not uniform in ideals, culture, governance, values, etc. Why should we expect Turkey, arguably the most diverse country in human history, to be beholden to such lines? Especially when, lets be honest, Europeans don't really want Turkey close to them. They want a buffer to keep out the Syrians and Afghans. If Turkey was "completely" west (European Union would be the practical definition in this case), Europeans wouldn't get to be covert racists why complaining about Turkish democracy.

[@koktengri8724]

I feel Turkish. Not asian or european, only Turkish.

[@bertrecht913]

Turkish people are asians.

[@romagamer4485]

The Turks are Mongols from the middle of Asia and the Europeans know this so they will not allow you to become part of the union European so do not pretend to be European because this is really pathetic. You Asian accept the truth of the matter

[@freneticness6927]

Turkey is as european a country as russia is an asian country. I.E not really at all in any way.

[@zzhex6780]

The greatest extent of the Ottoman Empire which you showed is wrong on so many levels it was a lot bigger. Other than that the video was pretty good.

[@nikosnikos8184]

all nations defeated the Ottoman Turks. a failed Ottoman era

[@zzhex6780]

@@nikosnikos8184 lmao turks defeated all nations in war winning some victories then getting conquered isn’t a victory it’s a defeat Turks conquered Greeks Serbs all of Balkan Hungary parts of Ukraine and Poland etc etc what defeated the Turks was modernisation and lack of support from other countries meanwhile Europe made a habit of going 4 against 1 when fighting Turks and still half the time they lost

[@giginthesky6570]

@@nikosnikos8184 a failed ottoman era that enslaved all balkans for 500 years xdddd

[@erony2336]

@@nikosnikos8184 500 years

[@rogerdodger8813]

It basically replaced the Byzantine Empire!

[@j.obrien4990]

Turkey is a bridge between the East and the West. Ideally it should lead a Turkic Union, that will have a cooperative relationship with Europe, and the Arab world. (Ideally doesn't mean will happen)

[@kko3949]

In geopolitics, Turkey is more like a European country. But in history and geography, it is Asian. Well, that's according to our history class. I dunno if there's other perspective to that.

[@nikosnikos8184]

Most Turks do not like the Western way of life and European culture

[@kevingutierrez9273]

Turks will always be Westernised Asians in my eyes. I'm Filipino of Spanish descent as many Filipinos are but we are still Asian despite being Westernised.

[@Geckotr]

You're not ethnically mixed like the Turks. Ottoman Empire spanned on 3 continents. It has subjects from Bosnia to Saudi Arabia. Turkey inherited this multi-ethnicity and cultural diversity when the Ottoman Empire collapsed. But if you speak about the origin of the Turks, you are right. Their ancestral land is the central asian steppes

[@echidnanatsuki882]

I'm also a Filipino with 1/16 Spanish Roots and I agree with this XD.

[@mustafahakim1298]

Turks are genetically European.

[@boyalkus8559]

I'm a turk and also feels like that. I'm an asian with the mix culture of asian and european.

[@kevingutierrez9273]

@@mustafahakim1298 Genetically European? Are you that ignorant of your history? Maybe culturally European for the city dwellers but genetically speaking, Turks possess Arabic, European & Central Asian roots thanks to the Ottoman Empire spanning from Southeastern Europe to North Africa. Seriously, please get your facts straight. Whether you like it or not, a vast majority of the EU boys will never accept you as European. No matter how much reasoning you give, it will never remove the simple fact that your language is Central Asian and your general cultural traits is Middle Eastern. So move on and deal with that unfortunate reality.

[@fettywap1738]

Money & Macro the GOAT

[@ahmtankrl8526]

Just for correction ottoman rules started being caliph from Yavuz Sultan Selim before him they were only leaders of ottoman empire

[@tasosGRvocals]

Short answer: NO. Turkey is NOT western.

[@k.umquat8604]

Turkey is westernised yes,but not western

[@FOLIPE]

I think Turkey is broadly western, as is eastern Europe. However, those are ambiguous regions that have historically not been fully in or out of the western umbrella. I'd also include Latin America in that. Certainly a part of why we question Turkish western credentials is because the core power centers of the west lie on northern European countries and the US, and Turkey would probably be not seen as that distant from the west if instead southern Europe was the hegemonic region in the EU.

[@innosam123]

If Southern Europe was the hegemonic power of the EU, Greece would probably still be the Byzantine Empire, making the entire ‘Turkey=European’ discussion irrelevant… :P On a different note, Latin America is the opposite of Turkey - culturally European and politically outside the West. If Latin America becomes developed, that might change- while the situation in Turkey is harder to change due to cultural and religious factors.

[@e.v3832]

@@innosam123 Lol, only argentina southern european culturally and genetically, other south american countries are mostly native american by genetics

[@sarantis1995]

@@e.v3832 Fredinno said culturally european, not genetically european. The all speak Spanish with the exception of Portuguese in Brazil ofc , are catholic christians and their society is organized in the same fashion as european - american society, albeit with local flavor ofc. It's a region with distinct history and cultural composition but same is the Balkan countries, post-soviet central and eastern european countries, nordic countries, greece, english, germans, french, the iberian countries. We don't all have identical cultures but are much more alligned with each other than with the middle east-arab world, subsaharan african, turkic central asia or the far east.

[@e.v3832]

@@sarantis1995 I have been both southern europe and northern america,(in there I met many south americans) ,anyway due to religion and immigration they have some similarities with southern europe but still they are way different and they have own distinct culture, way of life etc, so in reality no one in southern europe real consider south americans as their brother etc , except argentinians and some brazillians they don't have look european either and that's why they face racism in U.S, so in conclusion they are not western but kinda hybrid within native domination

[@_Redronin_]

In fact, what separates Turkey from the West is not its geographical location, but its religion. If they were Christian, I'm sure everyone would see them as part of Europe.

[@hadikonusalm5615]

There is nothing happened which is called Armenian Genocide. Türkiye's government and all other historical records show that, when WW1 occurs, Armenians killed hundreds of childrens, womens, babies, old people etc. Then Ottoman army has pushed them out of their borders. In ottoman empire, Armenians and Türks are lived in peace for hundreds of years, as same as other ethnical groups. But when WW began, Armenians are betrayed Ottoman's, which are already loosing in WW. So, you cant find any approved historical information about Armenian genocide!

[@mehmet24a]

Great video

[@IntoEurope]

Thank you!

[@Tark_]

Interesting that Turkeys GDP is shrinking since 2013. Almost a decade ^

[@mardbenzmura1446]

GDP stalled, exports and tourism (2019 due to covid in 2020-2021) increased. Think about it. Annual Exports were at 120 billion dollars while GDP was 800-900, now with similar GDP 🇹🇷 annual exports increased to 250 billion. If current trend continues, 🇹🇷 will hit the one trillion by the end of 2024.

[@manolisbach2380]

thats not true

[@baronbrummbar8691]

@@mardbenzmura1446 now multiply that with inflation (of course US$ inflation)

[@mardbenzmura1446]

@@baronbrummbar8691 I follow more precise indicators, like the increase in participation rate, utility utilization, and industrial production increase. These aren't affected by inflation, and instead shows the actual growth composition.

[@baronbrummbar8691]

@@mardbenzmura1446 pure production of goods ain´t a good indicator ----- this thinking you do lead to the collapse of the communist block

[@pricenaseen]

Since the end of the Cold War countries can identify as themselves instead of „western or eastern“

[@nxx33]

it is very detailed video and very quite accurte

[@Seventh7Art]

Let's see. Turkey is ultra nationalistic, islamic, has a past rooted in Mongolia (Han and Kan are titles used by Mongol Leaders and Turkish Sultans) their music is oriental, the harem culture also came from ancient China and then it passed on to Turks and Arabs, Persians etc. Also, 97% of modern Turkey is located in Asia. Only 3% is situated on European soil. Erdogan playing with both NATO, Russia and Iran at the same time, is part of the Oriental culture. Turkish people were nomads of Asia and entered what is known as modern Turkey, less than 1000 years ago. Also, Turkish culture is imperialistic in nature, glorifying conquest and theft: For example they are proud of conquering a church like Ayia Sofia and turning it into a mosque. To understand this, imagine being French, conquering Egypt, turning the Pyramids into Cathedrals and then brag about conquering the area and turning pyramids into churches. Their mentality is totally barbaric. Not to mention the genocides against Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, etc. So, no, Turkey is definitely not Western. I have been there and felt like an alien world, far from Europe. I forgot to mention the language, which is totally Asian... Just like the Gypsies came originally from India and never became Europeans, Turks came from the Far East and never became Europeans. I could go on and on, of course...

[@siyacer]

"Turkey isn't Western, look at all the Western things they did!"

[@krkrbbr]

"Armenian Genocide" wasn't a genocide, something did happen, it didn't stem from racism, it was poorly organized. And because of that possibly tens of thousands of Armenian civilian casualties happened, reasons were legitimate but execution was horrid. Ottomans did many similar relocation operations before and never had casualties. But when years away from collapsing, weak and at war Ottomans couldn't provide security so criminal groups such as Turkish, Arabic, Kurdish bandits raided and plundered the Armenian convoys, rebels within the collapsing army took opportunity of them and left them to starvation. Nothing was planned and in the ensued chaos Armenians suffered. The official orders for the operation was relocating Armenians from Armenian majority provinces to prevent further uprisings and relocate them back when the war was over and the order was reestablished. Armenian diaspora funds articles saying it was a genocide then quote them in other articles they also funded to make an impenetrable "academic" wall meanwhile changing Wikipedia quoting the same articles they funded to create a public opinion about the issue. I'm a med student and I'm not a nationalist, I have no agenda or animosity towards Armenians and information I presented is collected with professionalism as much as one can. I suggest at least reading the notes of the first president of Armenia about the issue if you don't trust Turkish historians and Ottoman archives.