Is Undertale's Neutral Route Morally Wrong?

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Wyvrn

Wyvrn

Күн бұрын

Despite not being a very long game, Undertale is a game that's been talked about to death on the Internet. Undertale is an ingenuis game that seems charming and childlike on the surface, yet has a dirty secret unlocked by the player's own twisted intentions. The game contains 3 major routes the player can take. Neutral, Pacifist, and Genocide. In this video we'll be asking the moral question, is the neutral route of Undertale good or bad? Enjoy ;) #undertale #gaming
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0:00 Intro
1:14 Ground Rules
3:58 Ruins
6:46 Toriel boss
7:48 Snowy Forest
9:11 Papyrus boss
10:11 Waterfall
11:30 Undyne boss
12:58 Hot-Land
13:46 Mettaton boss
14:42 Asgore boss
15:35 Flowey boss
16:07 Conclusion

Пікірлер: 437
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 25 күн бұрын
One thing I forgot to say near the end. I am not a "lore expert" when it comes to Undertale. If there's anything in this video that is objectively incorrect, please feel free to correct me. Edit: Many commenters have corrected me on Papyrus' bossfight and how you can't die during it. I appreciate it but There's no need to correct me on that anymore 😂😂
@W.D_Gaster
@W.D_Gaster 25 күн бұрын
Tbh the only nitpick is that MTT is a ghost like Nabstablook or Mad Dummy, so he does count as a person.
@friskandcoplay580
@friskandcoplay580 25 күн бұрын
papyrus can't kill you btw he just puts you in the "capture room"
@logicallouis543
@logicallouis543 25 күн бұрын
you said papyrus can kill you, he cannot
@Arcana_zero_studios
@Arcana_zero_studios 25 күн бұрын
Honestly, I would've just looked at all the different neutral endings, then examining the morality of how you got there. Did you get the ending where you killed Undine? Well, you've SEEN how psychotic that fish lady acts. It doesn't matter that she's shouting about justice for monsters and is called a heroine by all the monsters, you're a small child and she's a knight throwing spears at you like she's Vergil and they're his summoned swords. If she knew about it she would definitely try throwing out a judgement cut and yell 'scum' at you. Undine is a walking fight or flight vibe check and she can deny you the ability to run.
@Arcana_zero_studios
@Arcana_zero_studios 25 күн бұрын
9:39 WOAH WOAH WOAH, PAPYRUS IS THE ONE FIGHT THAT CAN NEVER KILL YOU! NOT EVEN TORIEL'S FIGHT IS THAT SAFETY PROOFED! HE WILL DROP HIS ATTACK THE SECOND YOU FALL INTO 1 HIT KILL RANGE AND 'CAPTURE' YOU BY TAKING YOU TO HIS LAUGHABLY EASY TO ESCAPE SHED! HELL HE EVEN STOPS TRYING ALTOGETHER AFTER 3 CAPTURES AND ESCAPES!
@aureliamastergoomba1278
@aureliamastergoomba1278 25 күн бұрын
9:45 The only error I found in this video so far: Papyrus is the only monster Frisk encounters that can *never* kill them! Papyrus lowers Frisk down to 1 HP, and captures them by putting them in his shed. Papyrus also willingly heals Frisk up, so he does show that he does have a lot of restraint.
@NanaNanaBananaCrown
@NanaNanaBananaCrown 25 күн бұрын
True, but a lot of monsters don’t understand how humans work. The best they know is that human souls strong, and they are physical. They don’t understand how fragile that strong soul is at LOVE 1. 20 HP is so low compared to half the monsters after Snowdin, and we don’t know how much the general population knows about that. Only Toriel, Asgore, Gerson, and Undyne has actually met humans before and from we know, only Toriel, Asgore, and Gerson have a chance to really know how weak human children are compared to adults (they were in the original war, they be old) and Undyne has only heard humans are strong, and anime. Anime. She also at most probably has met one human, and we don’t know how much that human had in terms of LV. The only person who we can say who else has met a human is maybe… MAYBE Alphys.
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 25 күн бұрын
Somebody else corrected me on this too, so thanks to both of you.
@michaeldoerrler2363
@michaeldoerrler2363 24 күн бұрын
​@@NanaNanaBananaCrown to be fair, even if humans have really low hp, they have far higher defense. Frisk with a plastic knife can deal 30 damage to toriel at lv 1, while monsters in the core who are trained mercenaries deal single digit damage unless you have really high lv at which point frisk can take many hits from them.
@doxthefox_
@doxthefox_ 24 күн бұрын
Also, Papyrus does say that he wants to be your friend, but he can’t because his dreams
@Occultmotion
@Occultmotion 24 күн бұрын
Just realised he said mettaton wasn’t a monster and was a robot and I can understand that but it’s actually a ghost that inhabits the body
@devaramed
@devaramed 25 күн бұрын
don't forget that you are still technically playing neutral in pacifist
@TJ-hg6op
@TJ-hg6op 25 күн бұрын
It’s still a part of the true pacifist, you are not killing at any chance you don’t have to. Even then, at the end you aren’t even the one who killed asgore.
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
Yeah that's true these two routes are similar. So I guess Pacifist is just a narrowed down and more restrictive neutral route.
@slaoqeubotoaq
@slaoqeubotoaq 22 күн бұрын
​@@TJ-hg6op you can kill asgore in pacifist tho
@numerousbees12
@numerousbees12 17 күн бұрын
the deltarot consumes. don't forget, I'm with you in the dark
@WindowsCompetitionForSomething
@WindowsCompetitionForSomething 17 күн бұрын
@@slaoqeubotoaqyeah but he attacked us first, and he wanted us to kill him. So us killing him is VERY justified.
@Aktedya1-jt7vw
@Aktedya1-jt7vw 25 күн бұрын
I think trying to kill Nabstablook after willingly engaging it is ... questionable. At least on the first turn, I don't see a reason to not try talking to it. Also, something to consider about the self defence thing is that you can attack enemies until they don't want to fight anymore.
@angelpuzzle
@angelpuzzle 20 күн бұрын
Do they tho Cause yeah their names turn yellow but they still attack you
@dropthehatantonycraft7516
@dropthehatantonycraft7516 14 күн бұрын
@@angelpuzzleYou may also accidentally go too far and end them anyway. Assuming a more “human” play through where you don’t save scum everything, that’s already being locked in Neutral.
@legalza0843
@legalza0843 Күн бұрын
My argument against your point is that even if they allow you to spare them once you beat them up they on the contrary would never spare if frisk is on low hp. torial notices when your hp is low and starts purposefully missing, and Pap lowers you to exactly one before capturing you. But other monsters don’t do this, they have no mercy so thus I don’t feel too bad about them getting a taste of that same medicine.
@Aktedya1-jt7vw
@Aktedya1-jt7vw Күн бұрын
@@angelpuzzle A Froggit in the game directly says "If a monster does not want to fight you"
@Aktedya1-jt7vw
@Aktedya1-jt7vw Күн бұрын
@@legalza0843 Well, the monsters want your soul, right? So they can escape the underground that humans trapped them in. There isn't really a way to accomplish their goal peacefully. You'd probably just get killed later after being captured by Papyrus (maybe just not by HIS hand)
@Octopus2480
@Octopus2480 24 күн бұрын
13:30 Another error. No matter what's the route, even if you're in genocide, Muffet gets a letter from the spiders in the RUINS saying you never hurt a single spider and then (even if you didn't buy a donut) she spares you, and if you still try giving money, she refuses.
@danielgonzalez-vm5lj
@danielgonzalez-vm5lj 23 күн бұрын
While she has the same spare method as papyrus there is 2 key differences 1 she is actually trying to kill you 2 unlike papyrus you can kill her before the letter arrives 3 she is a morally far worse character than most of the cast she is literally a cannibal both making treats of spiders but in genocide even regretting not turning alphys into a donut when she came to warn her to evacuate
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 12 күн бұрын
This doesn't really make a difference in the morality of killing her because this happens if you decided not to fight back for a long enough period of time (you would have already been justified to fight back) Also my point was that it's possible to skip the boss entirely but the method is so obscure and insensible that you shouldn't be expected to take it, so this moment in particular is not an error :)
@Octopus2480
@Octopus2480 12 күн бұрын
@@WyvrnOnYT I used Fight most of the time in the buffet battle on my first playthrough and I still got the Spare. In my opinion, it's morally wrong to kill her if she spares you.
@nisor123
@nisor123 5 күн бұрын
​Not to mention she refused to evacuate on genocide and is the entire reason why hotland and the core are accesible AND have killable monsters in them ​@@danielgonzalez-vm5lj
@selena3467
@selena3467 3 күн бұрын
​@@Octopus2480 Doesn't matter if she is dead before giving you a chance to spare her.
@W.D_Gaster
@W.D_Gaster 25 күн бұрын
in my opinion, Undyne, MTT, Asgore and Flowey can definitvely be justified. Undyne cannot be spared under any circumstance. MTT also doesn't allow you to spare him. Asgore actually begs you to kill him. Flowey. Toriel and Papyrus do not deserve it. Toriel does not pose a *threat*. She is an obstacle, but she doesn't threaten your life on purpose. Papyrus would be justifible... if you could just kill him. Papyrus is so bulky that you *cannot kill him unless you do it after he spares you*. It's hard to call self defense when the other person gives up
@W.D_Gaster
@W.D_Gaster 25 күн бұрын
actually, I agree with you on Toriel. I forgot she asks you to fight lol
@Takejiro24
@Takejiro24 25 күн бұрын
@@W.D_Gaster I love how you give actual reasons for why Undyne, MTT, and Asgore can be justified. Then you just put Flowey. 😭🤣☠️
@drypenny3561
@drypenny3561 25 күн бұрын
Actually with Papyrus he did want to capture you and if you stayed captured Undyne probably would've came there and killed you but Papyrus probably didn't know about that part but he does pose somewhat a threat but he doesn't actually kill you but in the video with Toriel yeah the "she challenged you to fight" in the video was bad because she doesn't want to kill you and only does on accident and only fights to prove yourself strong enough against the monsters ahead.
@ultrathunder4805
@ultrathunder4805 25 күн бұрын
i agree with that thought with papyrus, there's also the fact that you can't actually die to him, when he gets low he just puts you in the garage thing (i forget what it's called) and you can get out of there very easily, there's also the fact if you lose 3 times he'll allow you to not have to fight him.
@urdeadnotbigsuprise7439
@urdeadnotbigsuprise7439 25 күн бұрын
Nah, Toriel is fair game, she was trying to forcefully keep a child from outside world. Essentially kidnapping them.
@robirdta
@robirdta 25 күн бұрын
I can't blame Frisk for accidentally killing the first froggit as its a new environment to them and probably reacted out of pure fear not realizing they could spare the froggit. Undyne is completely reasonable to kill/ not give water to, that monster is literally hunting you down and not giving you an option to surrender, Mettaton is throwing their life into mortal danger and makes it clear that they have ill intent towards Frisk, Asgore striaght up doesn't let you spare him, meaning Frisk has no other option than to kill him. Flowey is a no brainer, he's far too dangerous to be left alive and terrorize the underground, yes they're a deeply traumatized child who was unfairly hunted by humans, but he's shown he's indifferent to commit mass murder and extremely dangerous and willing to harm others if given the option
@nghiaoantrong899
@nghiaoantrong899 24 күн бұрын
Fair point, for Asgore though, I think it is somewhat better if you spare him after winning That doesn’t make killing him unjustified, but a bit lower on the moral scale
@QSBraWQ
@QSBraWQ 21 күн бұрын
to not give water to undyne is to pour out whole cooler on the ground via a single cup at a time. that is pretty sadistic and morally wrong, imo
@ThisIsntAYoutuber
@ThisIsntAYoutuber 21 күн бұрын
@@nghiaoantrong899 Asgore also has the mindset where he feels guilt and wants Frisk to finish him off if he loses. If you spare him and he isn’t murdered, then he commits self-unalive and renders your choice meaningless. (Censored because of youtube) It’s a lose-lose situation where he can’t be spared ever, because his guilt can only drive him forward or to the grave.
@crypt5129
@crypt5129 19 күн бұрын
Self-defense is not always morally justifiable. Frisk's soul would free potentially thousands of monsters (idk if they ever say how many, at least more than one) of equal worth. If it's between Frisk and even just two monsters, Frisk is not morally justified disregarding any further context that may change the math, 2>1
@jevilsugoma1743
@jevilsugoma1743 19 күн бұрын
​@@crypt5129 it is, stop saying bs
@Tails_The_Fox92
@Tails_The_Fox92 25 күн бұрын
The worst ending you can get is killing everyone except for glad dummy. Everyone everyone loves is dead and glad dummy will eventually become to depression with its coming hatred for the body it fused with.
@Nooy_
@Nooy_ 21 күн бұрын
You could leave any one character alive and make the same argument
@Iwouldsmashvincent
@Iwouldsmashvincent 20 күн бұрын
The worst part ending has a required grammar check. You haven't seen bull yet.
@IcyDiamond
@IcyDiamond 20 күн бұрын
Ah yes the transphobia ending
@Tails_The_Fox92
@Tails_The_Fox92 20 күн бұрын
@@IcyDiamond Fucking real
@Tails_The_Fox92
@Tails_The_Fox92 20 күн бұрын
@Nooy_ Not really. Mad Dummy is a special case since they'll be depressed of two reasons.
@helloeverybody.8455
@helloeverybody.8455 25 күн бұрын
This may be a random enemy to bring up, but killing Vulkin seems a bit more morally questionable than other monsters. I'd still say it's justified since your life is still in danger, but it's made clear throughout the fight that Vulkin is not trying to hurt you, they're just stupid. Vulkin thinks their attacks heal you. Killing Vulkin would still fall under self-defence, but it would be a little worse than killing someone like Doggo or Migosp.
@chess123mate
@chess123mate 24 күн бұрын
I think many of the enemies are like that and are simply trying to interact with you, and don't realize that their magic hurts you.
@MarcusCollins69
@MarcusCollins69 17 күн бұрын
being ignorant does not hold up in any court of law
@personunnamedREAL
@personunnamedREAL 25 күн бұрын
Actually, something not really covered in the neutral route often (because most people don't know about it) is that, if you go through the neutral route while killing a few monsters, flowey tells you "if you get through the whole underground without killing a SINGLE monster, I WON'T kill the king." But here's the thing. You still don't have to do true pacifist for this. Meaning, if you just spare everyone and befriend nobody, you can get to the end of the game and have Asgore not die!!! Right?? ......right? Wrong. If you do this and attempt to spare Asgore, he will recognize that keeping you trapped in the underground is cruel, and he will KILL HIMSELF so that you can take his soul, and then flowey destroys his soul. It doesn't really matter if you spare or kill him, he was going to die no matter what. He never really wanted to kill you, he just wanted the fight to be over.
@gamerdomain6618
@gamerdomain6618 23 күн бұрын
9:39 You can *_not_* die to Papyrus. He truly does nonlethally capture you, just as he claimed, and then put you inside of a jerry-rigged jail inside of his shed. … he made the bars too wide, like he did at the bridge before Sans' sentry point, though.
@Lavenderflowergacha
@Lavenderflowergacha 24 күн бұрын
2:48 Sans actually can’t remember. He is just very good at examining body language and he knows of the existence of resets. Though never experiencing one.
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
But he is aware of the resets based on the dialogue of his genocide boss fight correct?
@Lavenderflowergacha
@Lavenderflowergacha 24 күн бұрын
@@WyvrnOnYT no, as I said before he is EXTREMELY good at reading body language. Hence why Asgore would make him the judge. Since he is extremely good at estimating events and emotions based on the body.
@Bengt2509
@Bengt2509 24 күн бұрын
In the video it says nothing about remembering. Sans is AWARE of resets (as implied by his “timelines starting and stopping” dialogue) he just doesn’t remember anything
@Lavenderflowergacha
@Lavenderflowergacha 24 күн бұрын
@@Bengt2509…? Well, one the creator literally responded thinking he remembered and 2 “these” implies he remembered the resets in the creators context if it was just “aware of resets” then you would be correct with your statement. And the creator even implies they are not very knowledgeable in the lore of Undertale.
@MutedAndReported3032
@MutedAndReported3032 22 күн бұрын
Well, unlike the player and Flowey, Sans doesn’t know what happened in past timelines, eg. before a reset or loading your save. But Sans does know that resets are a thing, and he knows that you have control of the timeline due to being a human. This is also why Sans is so “lazy”, or rather, depressed. It’s tough for him to do his best and try to achieve things because he knows that all of his effort can just be undone at the whims of the player, or Flowey before Frisk fell into the Underground.
@ivanlol7153
@ivanlol7153 25 күн бұрын
Random enemies can be justified as self defense(except whimsun). Toriel can be justified as she does ask us to prove us we are strong enough to survive, imply we have to fight her. You can't kill Papyrus before he spares you so Papyrus is unjustified as you have to attack after he surrenders. Undyne, Muffett, Mettaton and Asgore literally want your soul so that's justified. Flowey attempts to kill you immediately. Attempts to kill you over and over again until he's satisfied while taunting you which definitely counts as strange and unusual forms of torture on top of murder. Flowey is 100% justified. Keep in mind this is just my opinion. If you disagree that's okay.
@someone8206
@someone8206 19 күн бұрын
Moldsmal can also be spared instantly
@ivanlol7153
@ivanlol7153 19 күн бұрын
@@someone8206 oh yes, forgot about Modsmol, it’s self defense except whimsun and modsmol
@akitteninabowl8872
@akitteninabowl8872 7 күн бұрын
Some enemies can be spared by bringing them down to low hp
@ivanlol7153
@ivanlol7153 7 күн бұрын
@@akitteninabowl8872 yeah but they still try to kill you even if they’re yellow
@akitteninabowl8872
@akitteninabowl8872 7 күн бұрын
Jerry
@Floofer33
@Floofer33 19 күн бұрын
accidentally killing them is justified if it’s self defense but purposely killing them when you can spare them, is not justified to me
@legalza0843
@legalza0843 Күн бұрын
I guess that opens a discussion of responsibility, because is it really some kid’s responsibility to show unending patience to monsters until they give up rather then playing behind the line they already set? They certainly don’t intend on being merciful until you appease them or beat them into a corner.
@Floofer33
@Floofer33 Күн бұрын
@@legalza0843 yes
@SuperBatSpider
@SuperBatSpider 24 күн бұрын
I do think we should factor in the fact Frisk can undo their own death if they fall. So no enemy is a true threat to Frisk (Except Flowey) so kill Flowey if you wish.
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
It's something to consider
@mado-wh4jv
@mado-wh4jv 3 күн бұрын
Not really, you could reset the universe a billion times to dodge a bullet, but for that matter, they aren't entitled to you to go your way to save them when they are trying to kill you. It is something that falls in a moral gray, it is not like seeing a person in danger and not saving them, here they are seeking to harm you.
@SuperBatSpider
@SuperBatSpider 3 күн бұрын
@@mado-wh4jv Not entitled to be helped but still Sans makes a good point that if you have the amount of power and knowledge Frisk does you may have to consider that you have a responsibility to use it. Of course, in game and out of universe you can say: No, Frisk doesn’t have to spare enemies just because they are not truly in danger (Outside of the Flowey fight) but it should be considered.
@semajniomet981
@semajniomet981 Күн бұрын
"Hee hee hee. Did you really think I'd be satisfied... killing you only one time?" I remember those lines.
@helio3928
@helio3928 25 күн бұрын
neutral is what actually would happen realistically
@Mrsir529
@Mrsir529 23 күн бұрын
Frisk would basically be like “oh hey these guys don’t want to fight anymore” and spare them, or “oh crap these guys are trying to kill me” and kill them
@Discount_Jesus
@Discount_Jesus 24 күн бұрын
I think it depends on how you play the neutral ending- like fighting monsters isn’t wrong, most of them are trying to kill you or doing something that would lead to you dying. I think where it becomes morally wrong to fight on neutral is when an enemy either starts to spare you or tries to run away. Like killing Undyne is justified, but because on neutral you can never kill papyrus before he stops fighting, killing him is wrong
@SoundtrackDetector
@SoundtrackDetector 25 күн бұрын
Would be cool to see if this is also true for yellow, especially considering clovers naive but noble intentions making even its geno route sympathetic, even if morally wrong
@BetterCaulipowerSall-vq9yn
@BetterCaulipowerSall-vq9yn 20 күн бұрын
Decibat is iffy for you to kill, as he engaged the fight but he's only asking for you to be quiet. You are following Dalv around, and he's asking you to leave him alone, so I don't think killing him is justifiable. You can't kill Martlet. El Bailador is iffy, as he engages the "fight" but he's just asking for you to play DDR with him. Starlo is iffy, as he spends the entire wild east bonding with you, and it's clear he's not in a good state when you fight him, but he does outright say he's going to kill you several times. Guardner is justifiable, he's binded you with vines and is saying that it's going to kill you. Axis is questionable, because you are trespassing and he's trying to simply apprehend you, but he does say that he's going to kill you several times. You can't kill flowey in neutral.
@Tammythemouse
@Tammythemouse 25 күн бұрын
Oh no you can absolutely murder mettaton, robot in body but that is still a monster, since you might not know that’s a ghost in a robot body Alphys made mettaton for… mettaton (the ghost) then using mettaton (the robot) she convinced asgore she could make a robot with a monster soul but really it was a ghost possessing a robot giving it a soul, once a ghost is fused with a body it can be killed like any other monster, we see this with mad dummy in the genocide route as they turn into glad dummy having fused to their body and can now be killed, this also applies to mettaton Morally? Yeah frisk wouldn’t know, mettaton has purposefully hid his life behind him and tried to erase all the evidence of him being a ghost, the most you can find is the key which leads to his old house but even then it’s not clear Frisk killing mettaton would be justified as it would be like breaking a machine that had gone haywire and is now dangerous, you don’t think about it too much cause it’s just a robot, but even in the externally off chance frisk did learn this was a living person that isn’t bound by code and can’t be rebuilt as their soul would break once they die, mettaton still admits that someone has to die, that he would rather kill you thank let all of humanity die, and that he hired people to murder you, at the end of the day that’s just not okay and knowing he isn’t just a robot doesn’t change that
@OsamaAdel-jp6zn
@OsamaAdel-jp6zn 25 күн бұрын
frisk in neutral/pacifist: im in danger frisk in genocide: *IM THE DANGER* edit: OMG i have 42 likes another edit: SIXTY SIX !?1?11?!?!!
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
Frisk is essentially chuck norris in genocide.
@hananaltair3563
@hananaltair3563 24 күн бұрын
⁠@@WyvrnOnYTI’m uncivilised because I don’t know chuck norris
@leafy534
@leafy534 23 күн бұрын
​@@hananaltair3563 So Uncivilised. Just kidding i also don't know
@blackiousilay5641
@blackiousilay5641 5 күн бұрын
​@@hananaltair3563wth bro? Check Him out in Google bc He is on his way to Your location
@jonathanmason2451
@jonathanmason2451 3 күн бұрын
OMG you have 66 likes
@funkyflame7037
@funkyflame7037 24 күн бұрын
It's straightup impossible to say if the neutral route is morally good or bad, because your actions can range from killing nobody but not hanging out with undyne, to killing literally everybody except one enemy that is required to continue the geno route
@mintu5931
@mintu5931 25 күн бұрын
I don't agree with the moster kid part. Undyne is literally moving to you trying to kill you and it's not like that it's your fault that monster kid tripped so Frisk trying to escape would make sense. Basically not risking your own life to safe another one makes sense for me especially because its expected that monster kid gets saved anyway by Undyne.
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
I definitely should've taken more time to go over this encounter looking back on it. It's more complicated than it seems.
@user-fz2to6um6v
@user-fz2to6um6v 24 күн бұрын
a lot of monsters are trying to kill you all the time so as much as u love all the characters, if you're a random kid in a place full with monsters that say they need your soul then HOW can you not be terrified?
@Trihexagonal
@Trihexagonal 10 күн бұрын
By the fact that you cant really permanently die.
@DaichiOkami
@DaichiOkami 24 күн бұрын
10:08 last time I checked papyrus cannot actually kill you. He always leaves you at 1 hp and just takes you to his garage to a supposed cell where the bars are too wide and the door is unlocked. Even if you lose to him 2 more times he just lets you go even without beating him.
@ellie7252
@ellie7252 4 күн бұрын
14:35 I never really understood why people say this about Napstablook, Mettaton, Papyrus or Sans. it's not like Sans and Papyrus are UNDEAD CORPSES, they're skeleton-type monsters. so no, they're not already dead. same with Napstablook, it's not like he's the soul of some human, he's just a ghost monster, a type of monster. and Mettaton isn't a robot, he's a ghost possessing a robotic vessel created by Alphys. I know you don't use that as an argument for why killing them is okay, but you mentioned it as if it's a fact, so I wanted to correct that, is all. love the video btw.
@polocatfan
@polocatfan 5 күн бұрын
A big thing people fail to consider is that you can reset if you die IN UNIVERSE. Yes, normally them trying to kill you would be wrong, but they not only have a valid reason to do so, they also will never actually succeed. This is why you're judged harsher than you would be if resetting wasn't an in-universe mechanic. That's why I would consider Clover's neutral route more justified, Clover was told they can get reset if they die, but since they don't remember resets, they have no actual reason to believe Flowey.
@drypenny3561
@drypenny3561 25 күн бұрын
I'd argue Greator Dog was justified because he always looked nice and never said they wanted to kill you and just look happy and you need to do normal dog tricks that any other person would know to spare them so Frisk could understand that pretty nicely but yeah other that and the Toriel part great video!
@Trihexagonal
@Trihexagonal 10 күн бұрын
And you cant judge him cuz the spear, it would be like killing papyrus cuz bones
@aresrivera9744
@aresrivera9744 25 күн бұрын
6:15 as a child fleeing will be the first thing on your mind . Frisk special, Band-Aid makes it so they can automatically flee any encounter. In addition, if we’re just going by Frisk perspective punching the dummy makes Frisk feel bad regardless of anything you said no matter what you said frisk would see it morally objective to hurt inanimate objects, and let alone monsters. So any argument you make about frisk feeling is immediately negated
@papermr.magolorguy7957
@papermr.magolorguy7957 11 күн бұрын
Gotta say, this was an interesting video. I would love to see you do more morality character play through analysis with other games. Good job man!
@loganshark667
@loganshark667 22 күн бұрын
Tbh, i dont think killing tori is justified for a few reasons 1: she actively *avoids* killing frisk when they're fighting. Although she can accidentally kill Frisk, she doesn't straight up attempt to. Plus simply challenging someone in a fight doesn't justify killing. 2: tori actually has a good reason for keeping frisk at the ruins, as according to her most of the other monsters would kill frisk, which actually is true. So it becomes less like tori holding frisk against her will. And more like tori trying to prevent frisk from getting yourself murdered. Kinda like a mother trying to stop a child from running into a busy high-way. Which kinda makes killing tori, the furthest from justified. Also tori litterally saves frisk from death so yeah.. its straight up impossible for frisk to justify killing toriel. Unless She considers a child killing a mother for trying to stop said child from doing something dangerous justified.
@FastKnight401
@FastKnight401 9 күн бұрын
The thing that made me kill Toriel was that I was trying to get her health low enough to spare her. In a real situation, it would be "fight enough to let her know you're strong enough to survive". However, the final hit does way more damage than all the other hits, which took me by surprise. You could think of it as a training accident. Though what Frisk intended matters. Is it an intentional kill, or an accidental kill? That changes pretty much everything. That's what makes these questions so complicated, it's not JUST about the action, it's about why they chose that action in the first place as well.
@purple_guy_883
@purple_guy_883 12 күн бұрын
I think that killing Papyrus was unjustified since no matter how many times you get hit PAPYRUS WON'T KILL YOU, he brings you down to 1 HP and then "captures" you so he can finally live out his lifelong dream.
@ScapeVEVO
@ScapeVEVO 24 күн бұрын
Can’t you just like- run away tho I think assuming a kid will attempt to kill in self defense in the first place is presumptuous, if I’m a kid in this environment my first instinct is to run…
@zap5944
@zap5944 4 сағат бұрын
9:41 you actually can't die in Papyrus boss fight, he will catch u and bring u to a prison that you really easy-escape prison
@theoriginalchuckler9594
@theoriginalchuckler9594 25 күн бұрын
The end RUINs dialogue you got only happens if you trigger a genocide and abort it, iunno, think genocide is pretty non-moral
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
Is that so? I don't believe the added context matters though because this dialogue has nothing to do with previous routes of the game, and only has to do with the choices you made at the ruins. I think regardless of whether or not this dialogue requires an aborted genocide route, my opinion would stay the same.
@MutedAndReported3032
@MutedAndReported3032 22 күн бұрын
That’s not true. This dialogue is triggered when you spare Toriel but have killed any monsters in the Ruins. He says something different if you killed Toriel, then reloaded and spared her, though, even if you have killed other monsters. This is something that most players do on their first playthrough, so that might be why you thought this was exclusive to an aborted geno route.
@theoriginalchuckler9594
@theoriginalchuckler9594 17 күн бұрын
@@MutedAndReported3032 Ah, that's my bad, I've only ever really seen it in the context of aborted genos, personally. Forgot about the requirement just being exp + SPARING Toriel.
@redbool1115
@redbool1115 24 күн бұрын
Correct answer is that it depends on who you aren’t a pacifist with. Killing some one like undyne, mettaton, or the core enemies is 100% justified self defense
@b8conbear330
@b8conbear330 4 күн бұрын
I wouldn’t say mettaton is tho, I have a feeling he wasn’t actually trying to kill frisk but more was set up as a reason to prop up alphys. Alphys literally gets exposed at the end of the core for setting up stuff to oppose frisk and who says they didn’t tamper with mettaton? Mettaton was probably only attacking frisk and doing things with them because it got him views and was good for show buisness. And we aren’t even considering the fact alphys trusted you and you murdered mettaton who was there friend causing them to commit suicide later in the run.
@Solesteam
@Solesteam Күн бұрын
7:28 Toriel practically encourges you to kill her... Then drops her defense like 5 hits away from what you'd expect to be the finishing blow.
@Mr_kirbeh
@Mr_kirbeh 24 күн бұрын
I did a run and when I beat asgore I spared him and he told me to kill him anyway beacuse he said “I’m sorry but we just can’t have a happy ending, take my soul and leave this place.” And when flowey takes the souls he just says “let’s get this over with” and puts me in the end credits without fighting omega flowey
@Bengt2509
@Bengt2509 24 күн бұрын
So then you’ve already done neutral. Flowey skips becoming photoshop/omega/whatever flowey if you’ve already finished neutral
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
Wow really? I didn't know something like that could happen. That's pretty cool.
@Bengt2509
@Bengt2509 24 күн бұрын
@@WyvrnOnYTthat happens once you reset and do a neutral route again. Flowey skips becoming photoshop/omega flowey
@Mr_kirbeh
@Mr_kirbeh 24 күн бұрын
@@Bengt2509 no I started in a new account and was very confused
@Mr_kirbeh
@Mr_kirbeh 24 күн бұрын
@@Bengt2509 bcz I was trying the Nintendo switch version for the first time
@GoldenCatastrophe5652
@GoldenCatastrophe5652 21 күн бұрын
I just have a few points of info to give and some questions !! Napstablook is actually a they, Mad Dummy is a they/it BUT because she does transition into Mew Mew, all three work imo Would it he justifiable to kill Temmie? While knowing all about her and how she functions - and that she has an unavoidable attack. Temmie knows you can come back after death (speaking as the collective temmie) so is dying to her really bad when she is aware? Is it justifiable to "kill" Mew Mew? We're the one's who cause her new binding and self sense but she does challenge us again - and will kill us with no remourse in battle, we make or break her body, and iirc we are told this too, so would preventing her permanent body connection be evil?
@HyperMurder
@HyperMurder 6 күн бұрын
the ending where you almost kill everyone, leads to sans just hating you.
@comradealita
@comradealita 20 күн бұрын
As someone who loves Undertale. I LOVE this idea. and honestly, I think it would be really cool to do this topic but to encompass all of the different routes of Neutral. And don't worry, while there are 80+ variations of these endings. there's like 10 Actual endings of Neutral. Undyne, Family, Alphys, Papyrus, Metaton, Exiled Queen, Dog, and No King. There are variations in these, but overall they stay relatively similar in how the Underground is ran when the Human leaves. And in case you're wondering, the ending you talked about here, was the Papyrus ending :) but overall, loved the video and the topic! and I do have one point against yours with the first froggit you encountered. While yes, it does "jump" you, it can be seen as an over reaction to dusting it (don't want to go against TOS) when all it did was appear. and since in the previous room it was reinforced that "you don't want to hurt people" with the dummy, I can see this being one where you would try to talk first and toriel comes in to stop the encounter
@KasecTheTraveler
@KasecTheTraveler 22 күн бұрын
Froggit says "Monsters wont want to fight you when their hp is lowered" or something along the lines. Clearly, attacking when you can spare the enemy for good is the immoral thing to do
@merphinsky5193
@merphinsky5193 3 күн бұрын
That Froggit you are talking about is the same first Froggit you encounter with Toriel. And as stated in the video, it is ok to kill him. And if you kill him, he won't show up to tell you what you are reffering.
@KasecTheTraveler
@KasecTheTraveler 3 күн бұрын
@@merphinsky5193 What about what TORIEL says? She tells you to NOT fight enemies, that she will sort the mess up right before the room you encounter that Froggit. Just stall. And after that, you will have Froggit tell you if you hurt monsters enough they won't fight you anymore. And conveniently, Froggit appears ONCE Toriel leaves.
@selena3467
@selena3467 3 күн бұрын
​@@KasecTheTravelerThat Froggit is weaker than the other Froggits. You can oneshot this one with a Stick while the others can't be oneshot. Furthermore this is Frisks first real combat encounter after Flowey. It is not unreasonable trying to fend it off with a stick. Flowey a literal Flower can bring you down to 1HP with one single bullet and survived a fireball straight into his face. It's not wrong to at first assume that all monster are as strong as Flowey or Toriel and therefore attack it in the heat of the moment. Also Flowey literally says that in this world it's kill or be killed. This is an unknown place for humans with unknown inhabitants and if Flowey is the first one that you encounter it's not unreasonable that you attack a Frog monster that innetiates combat with you - regardless of what Toriel has said before.
@gumballfan13
@gumballfan13 24 күн бұрын
One thing that I should point out is that you can abort the Genocide Run to become a Neutral Run at any point in the game. However, I would think these routes are still morally wrong to a degree, especially if you abort the Route in Hotland. There's a unique ending for it, but one thing I should point out is that Frisk still has an urge to kill the monsters during the New Home segment as a smile appears above the encounters. I just thought it was a bit interesting.
@Bengt2509
@Bengt2509 24 күн бұрын
You can abort until the final “but nobody came”
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
That's a really good point. Aborting a genocide route, especially deeper into the game, gives us a neutral ending where we indeed were a villain.
@semajniomet981
@semajniomet981 Күн бұрын
@@WyvrnOnYT "I should have killed you when I had the chance."
@_kirbmaster_6609
@_kirbmaster_6609 24 күн бұрын
I'm going to give my own thoughts. This is going to be a long comment. I'm not entirely sure about Toriel since she does, in fact, start the battle, but she also avoids killing you. You can die to her, but it's rather difficult, especially if you aren't actively trying to do it. However, since we're assuming it's Frisk's first playthrough and how often first-time players don't understand how to spare her, I'd say it's justified. Papyrus is completely unjustified. But I really like how the game handles him in terms of judging you because the judge, Sans, obviously doesn't like it when you kill his brother, so he'd judge you more harshly. But the game justifies this harsher judgment by making it literally impossible to kill him by accident, therefore removing any possible justification for killing him. By the way, in the game, Napstablook and Mad Dummy are both shown to use they/them and not he/him. It's very easy to make this mistake, but I still want to let people know if they get it wrong. Mad Dummy also later switches to using she/her in certain versions of the game (specifically Switch and Xbox, but yes, this is still canon). Also, Mettaton is even more confusing because, although the only way to learn this is by getting into a secret area in Waterfall, he is a ghost, not a robot. That's why you gain EXP from killing him. Also, he doesn't want to kill humans; he wants to entertain them. To do that, he'd need to absorb your soul and go to the surface. I'd still say it's justified, though, because he is rather clear about his intentions to kill you and take your soul. Finally, Asgore. He literally asks you to unalive him. If you don't, Flowey will. If you stop Flowey from removing him, he will commit self-die. In a neutral route, there is no way to spare him.
@duckinsaneguy6102
@duckinsaneguy6102 25 күн бұрын
2:47 the characters KNOW there are resets but dont remember exactly what you did, flowey is most likely just numb from how many resets he did. Counting sans would include mettaton, toriel, temmie, asgore, actually just everyone. (Also there IS a flee option to run from enemies)
@SomeDudeCauseYes
@SomeDudeCauseYes 23 күн бұрын
no they don't, minus flowey as she can also remember the past. (sans dialogue is bc of the face, so he assumes it was bc he's too pro.)
@SomeDudeCauseYes
@SomeDudeCauseYes 23 күн бұрын
however, sans is aware of resets ("timelines starting and ending")
@ViniciusDiasissy
@ViniciusDiasissy 25 күн бұрын
In my opnion neutral is is ok, It's self defense for monsters like Undyne and muffet, and while small monsters don't deserve dying (most don't even realise you're a human), a small child could accidentaly kill them in self defence. - Better than the people who say GENO is justificable, even with Papyrus, Maddy and Mk sparing you, you chasing monsters for hours, not letting them go while yhey ead for mercy and you always attacking on the first turn, meaning you are always the one to start fighting
@ViniciusDiasissy
@ViniciusDiasissy 25 күн бұрын
I was thinking of what route I would do if I was in the underground, and it endup with me realising I would die to Muffet or Mettaton, but ignoring that. - If I was in the underground what would I do? Fight them...? Spare them...? Neither, I would just run from every encounter, monster want to fight me? Run, Napstablook is crying? Run, the dogs are after me? Run(1 is blind, 2 are dumb, 2 just care about the smell), bosses like Toriel would be harder, but I would just need to go out while she's sleeping, papyrus wouldn't kill me, so even if I couldn't run away he would do that thing if you lose 3 times, and undyne spare method is to run away in the first place. - With would endup with me dying on muffet stuck on her webs or with mettaton in that elevator, and even if I attacked monsters, it says is mostly on bases on intent, and I'll probably be more like "get away" then "I want you dead", so I don't think I would accidentaly kill anyone. - But what I am meaning to say is, some people say stuff like "why do you need to be nice to people that attack you?", but you don't need, you can run, you can attack untill you defeat them and let them go, you can scare monsters away, you can explain their attacks hurt you, you don't need to try getting along with them, just don't pick murder as your first option on peoples who are way weaker than you.
@ViniciusDiasissy
@ViniciusDiasissy 25 күн бұрын
I guess another point is, what neutral run it is? A aborted geno? Killed one single monster at the beggining? Killed 80+ monsters while not activating geno?
@jevilsugoma1743
@jevilsugoma1743 19 күн бұрын
​@@ViniciusDiasissyI think you don't remember your debate with ultimate Capper,
@ViniciusDiasissy
@ViniciusDiasissy 19 күн бұрын
@@jevilsugoma1743 who
@jevilsugoma1743
@jevilsugoma1743 19 күн бұрын
@@ViniciusDiasissy that troll face pfp guy in the video called "Undertale yellow all bossesmmmm" something like that, can you help with something I wanted to talk to that guy but mssges keep getting deleted what about you tell that Ultimate Capper guy to check my about me
@agsilverradio2225
@agsilverradio2225 19 күн бұрын
I think that, in a neutral run, you are not only justifyed in killing Flowey, but morally obligated to.
@Solesteam
@Solesteam Күн бұрын
It is never morally correct to purge a papyrus. He can't even kill Frisk, he just captured as I'm sure 200,000 different comments have said. But what they haven't said is that papyrus... uh... papyrus is just too cool a dude to justify killing...?
@EthanEx17
@EthanEx17 24 күн бұрын
Great video!
@Megalobert
@Megalobert 12 күн бұрын
I'd like to say there *are* some monsters which I consider it's morally wrong to kill, like whimsum and vulkin. It's clear that whimsum encounters you by accideny and does NOT want to kill you, but only to defened herself and keep you away cuz she's scared. Her attacks don't even aim at you so the only way you can die is by intentionally getting hit, best thing to do here would be run or spare her. And with vulkin, she just wants a hug, but ends up unintentionally hurting you in the proccess, like a playful dog being too brute with a child. As before, the solution is sparing or flee same goes for temmie btw
@yourordinaryduck929
@yourordinaryduck929 21 күн бұрын
It’s so funny that he says that killing is justified so casually 😂
@adinom687
@adinom687 19 күн бұрын
I don’t think it’s morally wrong to kill Papyrus. Especially if, say, you end the fight with like 3HP. Imagine if some guy kept talking about capturing you, brought you close to death, and now you’re morally expected to spare him because “He’s worn out”. That’s ridiculous. We also know Papyrus is stubborn and resilient. There’s nothing stopping him from getting rest and continuing to hunt us down “for the Royal Guard” except for our preconceived notions as a gamer of knowing that the boss fight is the probably the final time we’ll have an altercation with him. (And yes, Papyrus will never kill the human, but they don’t know that) And then you are in no way morally obligated to help Monster Kid. Undyne is literally right there and to help them is to move extremely close to her. You’re essentially jumping in front of a bullet (or spear) to save someone you met just two minutes ago and, again, Undyne is right there. She’s just as able to save Monster Kid as you are. I still liked the video, despite these disagreements because props to you for posting an Undertale video where you say there’s nothing wrong with killing Toriel.
@user-qg4zb6jt9s
@user-qg4zb6jt9s 15 күн бұрын
Papyrus was going to bring undying there to kill you so probably best if you killed him also Papyrus is on that Dan Schneider shit Bro went on a date with a child that's probably not even in the double digits💀💀💀💀💀💀💀 do not let this man anywhere near Society
@chrispy7009
@chrispy7009 21 сағат бұрын
I get where the videos coming from but I feel it misses one of the biggest parts of undertale. I see the first couple monsters that can’t be spared immeadietly being fine to morally kill. But as soon as Frisk dies once Frisk would find out that she can’t truly die. This makes killing a monster from then on the easy choice to spending the extra time finding out how to spare one. The main point would be: if you have infinite time and infinite lives is it morally correct to kill something when you know it’s possible to avoid doing so?
@NovikInfinite
@NovikInfinite 12 күн бұрын
I'd say that while Frisk would attack if they see it as self-defense, they're just a kid. I doubt they would want to kill anyone assuming they have no reason to. This logic leads me to believe that Papyrus is spared by Frisk, as he specifically states he's sparing you, and at that point Frisk no longer has a good reason to kill Papyrus at all.
@widelia2008
@widelia2008 25 күн бұрын
1:09 As someone who dosen‘t have a guinea pig. I see this as an absolute win. (I subbed tho)
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
💀Thanks for watching.
@DrawciaGleam02
@DrawciaGleam02 25 күн бұрын
LMAO at "Elvis Presley Dude"!
@selena3467
@selena3467 3 күн бұрын
That's actually very interesting because I have done a run like that myself a few months back. "What if I happened to fall into the Underground with no prior knowledge?" was basically what I was doing and tried to be as morally good as I reasonably could. I ended up at like LV 12 or something like that mainly by killing the bosses except for Papyrus. One thing that didn't make sense was when Undyne was talking about her going though waterfall with dust everywhere or something like that, implying that I had killed any enemies in waterfall when the only person I had killed up to that point was Toriel.
@noxthedremoralord2683
@noxthedremoralord2683 25 күн бұрын
My answer to whether you’re good or bad on neutral Yesn’t
@Linktheangel1993
@Linktheangel1993 25 күн бұрын
Papyrus is not justified he spares and does not kill you he stops at 1 hp and if you lose to often he offers you to walk past him
@MarcusCollins69
@MarcusCollins69 17 күн бұрын
but with the previous conversations "im gonna capture you and have the royal guards get you" which means death and another war that's fair game to kill
@Linktheangel1993
@Linktheangel1993 17 күн бұрын
@@MarcusCollins69 well Papyrus is naive he thinks they take care of us and not about kill us, he taught it would be fun for us
@MarcusCollins69
@MarcusCollins69 17 күн бұрын
@@Linktheangel1993 and being naive is not an execuse
@user-qg4zb6jt9s
@user-qg4zb6jt9s 15 күн бұрын
​@@Linktheangel1993he's naive not a moron he knows for a fact undying is going to kill a child
@Nathan133.
@Nathan133. 19 күн бұрын
Be honest if you were frisk realistically, would you ACTUALLY spare flowey after the omega flowey fight?
@lunadachi4792
@lunadachi4792 5 күн бұрын
I’d like to make the argument that fleeing from any encounter that allows you to while still progressing is more often than not the justifiable decision. Granted, the term is fight or flight for a reason. Just another avenue to consider since so many of the non-boss fights bar undyne offer this option
@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity
@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity 25 күн бұрын
One of my leadt favorite things about undertale is theres not enough hateable characters wich means the game rarely trys to push you to kill in any way ut doesnt challenge your resolve. And the one super hateable character (Alphys) isnt killable
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 25 күн бұрын
lmao. True lol
@crazygamingoscar7325
@crazygamingoscar7325 25 күн бұрын
Realistically, How (If you don't already know the rest of the plot, which invalidates killing anyone really (For in game, moral reasons, not external reasons)), is Alphys more hateable than Undyne?
@friskandcoplay580
@friskandcoplay580 25 күн бұрын
Bro cannot handle morally grey characters 😭😭😭🙏🙏
@WalkThrough_101
@WalkThrough_101 25 күн бұрын
Can't kill Alphys Mengele in any route, makes me sad :
@jjfromdiscord8717
@jjfromdiscord8717 25 күн бұрын
Jerry
@wasabi5134
@wasabi5134 24 күн бұрын
What I've always wondered: If your SOUL shatters into pieces when you die, how are those who are trying to kill you for your SOUL going about taking it when they kill you? Do they just... sweep up the pieces and deliver them to Asgore?
@Trihexagonal
@Trihexagonal 10 күн бұрын
Maybe alphys assembles them in lab or smt?
@matoViva9
@matoViva9 4 күн бұрын
I think the whole SOUL break animation is just for the looks. I mean it would be pretty lame if everything disappeared and just left the SOUL alone on the screen before the Game Over appears. Maybe Toby could have made it so on Game Over we see the SOUL being trapped in a container (like Asgore's), but I feel like it wouldn't give the same effect.
@r221grace
@r221grace 25 күн бұрын
what i feel about papyrus: If he spares you and you feel as if he cannot be trusted (IF you have not been captured yet), its i guess ok to kill him..? I mean idrk. If you fake out papyrus, that's morally wrong, obvi. If you get captured once or twice and then he tries to spare you when the battle is almost over, i feel like it would not be moral to kill him, after all, he does heal you and doesn't kill you. And also the fact that he seems genuine. If you get captured three times and then papyrus spares you, i feel as if a random man came up to me and started attacking me and then putting me in a shed with the intention of trapping me, 3 TIMES. (Even if you are being healed i dont feel as if it justifies the whole thing) i would NOT trust him, like what if he just captures us again. Ik sans tells u hes harmless, but also again, hes a total stranger, both of them Also papyrus is willing to harm u in the multicolor puzzle due to him allowing you to be endangered by all of these things: electrocution, piranha attacks and fighting monsters without consent.
@47northm
@47northm 21 күн бұрын
Fun fact ya can’t die to papyrus
@macaroni6776
@macaroni6776 24 күн бұрын
I love this! Killing asgore reminds me of a trolley problem. Would you sacrifice yourself to save thousands of innocents from imprisonment Would you be interested in making a video for undertale yellow about which kill is justifiable?
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
I'm not really planning on playing any undertale/deltarune fangames at the moment. I prefer legacy games and I have a ton of games on my backlog to get through as is.
@gabriellenaz914
@gabriellenaz914 19 күн бұрын
Something to note about Papyrus, he only knocks you out if you actually die to him. He even leaves water for you in case. while it might not be known on a first playthrough of a game (especially if you dont die to him) Papyrus never has the intent to kill, he doesnt even bring you to Undyne. He of course willingly spares you (in genocide and pacifist) so its always wrong to kill him
@mado-wh4jv
@mado-wh4jv 3 күн бұрын
Something I love about the neutral route is the closure for the children's human souls who were murdered before you by supposedly Asgore (although there are hints they could have died before reaching him). It is satisfying as an ending the fact that once you get to fight flowey they are the ones to answer your call as they are the only ones who would realistically be sympathetic to your on self-defense. So you get to sort of avenge them and free them from their limbo.
@goommooster7572
@goommooster7572 5 күн бұрын
3:05 “they really aren’t that dangerous” this is said as if most monsters can’t literally kill the human especially in the case of undyne, muffet, mettaton and asgore the only reason frisk survives the underground is because they can literally rewind time
@aureliamastergoomba1278
@aureliamastergoomba1278 25 күн бұрын
3:23 Welp, RIP Flowey later on.
@widelia2008
@widelia2008 25 күн бұрын
My Dad would LOVE THE GENOCIDE RUN. he loves hard games :D
@etruscanetwork
@etruscanetwork 25 күн бұрын
We be learning kantian ethics with this one 🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥
@vrfujundying
@vrfujundying 15 күн бұрын
considering you can literally flee from almost all fights, i think it wouldnt be morally correct to kill most of them. Self defense is way less broader and lenient than the common sense (in the sociological definition) makes people think. If there's a option where no one dies, it isn't morally correct to use the option that someone does.
@zero3762
@zero3762 24 күн бұрын
I think that killing toriel isn't that bad because if you try to talk to her the first few times she doesn't answer so you could think that this is the only option. On the other side you can clearly see that she tries not to hit you when you're low and you really need to try to die to her so i don't know. And since when can you die to Papyrus?
@rondamon3553
@rondamon3553 11 күн бұрын
Some morally grey things you missed are some of the encounters with enemies who aren’t actively hostile intentionally, greater dog is just playing and doesnt realize hes harming you, same with vulcan in hotland, and a couple others i imagine.
@haydenbunk8583
@haydenbunk8583 24 күн бұрын
Frisk is a child. I don’t see how they know how to spare some monsters that are trying to to kill them
@Trihexagonal
@Trihexagonal 10 күн бұрын
I also dont see how he knows how to murder monsters instead of flee from them as a child
@ellie7252
@ellie7252 4 күн бұрын
it's nice to see someone do a normal analysis on morality in undertale instead of "IS THE GENOCIDE ROUTE JUSTIFIED?!" like what the fuck obviously not? but neutral? an actual debate to be had. though, I must correct you on a certain assertation. "is Frisk morally compromised or not in the neutral route?" is essentially the question you pose, but no matter what route you take, Frisk does not really have positive or negative karma, because.. they aren't doing anything lol, they're being puppeted by the player, like, diegetically. of course, to the characters in-universe, that's imprinted onto Frisk, because only Flowey is aware of the player.. but further so, people calling you 'evil' or whatever for, idk killing a drawing in a video game is really silly for sure. essentially, my point is, Frisk isn't ever given a choice in the first place, because we the player are in control of them lol. though of course, this doesn't break your argument, I just think it's a thing alot of people forget for some reason, even though the metanarrative is an intrinsic part of the narrative.
@matoViva9
@matoViva9 4 күн бұрын
I have a few things to say. First some monsters are not actually trying to hurt you. Such as Greater Dog (who just think that fighting is playing) or Vulkin (who thinks it can heal you). I can also mention monsters who are not actually dangerous such as Whimsun (who will never damage you if you don't move and keeps apologizing, the poor is just scared) Mitgosp (Who pays you no mind when they are alone with you) or Jerry (Jerry.). Second, fighting is NOT what a child would try first if they found themselves in this situation. They would run away from danger first. Third, Papyrus can't kill you. He always brings you down to 1 HP but never 0. He even lets you pass if you fail too much. Killing Papyrus is heavilly unjustified as he is not a threat, and it is made clear during all of Snowdin's area. Also I think that the morally right thing to do after beating Flowey is to spare him, yes he did awful things, but he can't fight back even if he threatens you, and if we do not take resets in account, it's the last time Frisk sees Flowey ever, so he can't hurt Frisk ever again after this point, so why kill him ? (I'm not sure if this point is only me though) I think that's about it, still good video though, because I disagree doesn't mean it's bad. If anyone want to add anything, you're welcome to do so.
@WillRock07
@WillRock07 18 сағат бұрын
Really fascinating video! I agree with a lot of what you said, but one I strongly disagree with is your stance on doggo. So you said that Doggo threatens to kill any human he sees and is trying to kill you. However, he is a pushover. I think the fact his attacks are easy to dodge DOES matter. Compared to frisk, doggo isn't exactly a threat. They might hit you one time but the second you understand how to avoid the attack, the fight is over. The question then becomes - if you are up against an enemy that can't hurt you anymore, should you kill them? Really, even in the context of Frisk meeting this character for the first time, I think you have to be a little cold to knowingly kill an enemy that can no longer hurt you, particularly when there is another option available.
@CheesyGarlicMan
@CheesyGarlicMan 8 күн бұрын
Don't have a guinea pig. Can you trim my dog's nails instead?
@xxProjectJxx
@xxProjectJxx 4 күн бұрын
My first playthru of Undertale, I killed every boss except Papyrus, though I would have spared any boss if they had decided to walk away. At the end when Sans was explaining Exp in the judgement hall, I was like "I mean, it was all self-defense, so I don't feel bad" lol.
@mobiasmobility_sixteen
@mobiasmobility_sixteen 21 күн бұрын
To be honest, I think the only reason I spared Flowey after his Omega fight (when I had Undertale at least...) was because when you think about it, it would just make him suffer more. Think about it. In the genocide run, he mentions to you (Frisk, not the reader) that he did _everything_ he could think of doing to every monster in the underground. Killing them, getting answers out of them, likely verbally abusing them as well... (among other things I don't really want to get into), he eventually got bored with it all. On top of that, he basically gets the last laugh when you kill him, since he says he knew you had it in yourself to be apart of his mentality of "kill or be killed." Am I really gonna let someone get satisfaction from that after trying to kill me? No. ...then again, I doubt Frisk would think about that when dealing with Flowey on their first run.
@user-xv3ov4fo2m
@user-xv3ov4fo2m 13 сағат бұрын
fun fact, asgore is also aware of resets and saves, as is undyne. you can tell asgore is because if he kills you, and you go to fight him and you try to talk to him, it says he just nods his head, as if hes aware but doesnt want to acknowledge it. undyne is aware too, at least in genocide, as when you get to undyne the undying for the first time in your run, as im sure most people know she gives a long speech then says "your gonna have to try harder than THAT" if you die and go back to her she skips the entire speech and just says the previous quote, as if she knows that shes already given the speech, and she knows shes doing her job (kicking your ass) very well, and taunts you for failing.
@Scoutette
@Scoutette 18 күн бұрын
I feel like something important to consider here is that most non-boss monsters become sparable if their HP is low enough. I personally feel that going out of your way to kill them when you have the option to stop fighting isn't a very morally just action. Sure they were trying to kill you, but at that point in the battle they are willing to end the fight with both lives in tact.
@SpamtonOf
@SpamtonOf 22 күн бұрын
I feel like it isn’t that unjustified to leave monster kid. Undyne is faster than us, an adult and is the same distance from monster kid than us. Up until this point, she’s only been trying to kill Frisk. If there was a killer who’s been chasing you down now at the other end of a bridge, I don’t think it’s too wrong to run away even if someone else is in trouble
@user-wl5bp3jj6g
@user-wl5bp3jj6g 15 күн бұрын
Trim my guinea pigs toenails? Saves me a trip to the vet to get em trimmed 👍
@sfogliatelle278
@sfogliatelle278 19 күн бұрын
One thing that nobody said is the ability to reset that makes justifying some kills a bit harder. On your first play trough killing in self defense is 100% justified and the same can be said if you don’t know how to spare an enemy(for example, if you don’t know that you can flee during the undyne fight or that MTT stops fighting if your reach 10000 spectators) but if you replay the game and know how to end a fight without nobody dying you can’t kill for self defense, because you choose to fight instead of sparing. This thing is addressed at least twice in the game, one of you choose the talk option with toriel after killing her one (is there a way to give mercy without fighting or fleeing?), and the other with sans’ judgement if you kill papyrus (do you think that if you have some special power you should always try to do the right thing?). Still, frisk is a child and trying to spare the enemy could mean dying and suffering more times, so it doesn’t oblige you to be a pacifist, but it still makes justifying some kills a bit harder
@HumanoidDerpling
@HumanoidDerpling 24 күн бұрын
So glad there's someone bringing nuance to the discussion of Undertale's morality, it's been absent for far too long, and clearly by Toby Fox's own intent. You actually changed my mind about Toriel, and it caused me to see something I didn't see before: Toriel doesn't ever kill you, and not only doesn't seem disappointed if you kill her, but actively wants you to "fight or run away". I think that, with her endless years weighing down on her, she's attempting assisted suicide. The situation with Undyne may seem cut and dried, but it's a bit more interesting than that. It's clear she has a large amount of popularity, and that what she says may be taken as infallible. We can also assume that she's said similar things to other monsters. Obviously what she said is blatantly false, but that sure isn't obvious to the other monsters, and if she goes to fight Frisk and doesn't come back, the monsters will be grounded in their narrow-mindedness and false viewpoint tenfold. I'd argue this isn't just politically good, but that you're morally obligated to dispel deceit where possible. I actually think you're morally obligated to strike Asgore down. He's murdered 6 children, and as such deserves the death penalty. No amount of repentance can justify those actions. You might say it isn't Frisk's place to execute justice, and in an ideal world that'd be true. But who's gonna hold him accountable? The underground is largely anti-human to begin with, and all of them love Asgore. This is the only chance for him to get what's come to him.
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
That's a good point about Asgore. It also makes me think more about how he obtained the souls. I'm no lore expert so I don't know if there's a lore-accurate answer, but Undyne could've possibly murdered the children too. Pretty interesting comment and something I would not have thought of otherwise.
@HumanoidDerpling
@HumanoidDerpling 24 күн бұрын
​@@WyvrnOnYT It's implied that the humans fall down in long stretches of time from each other. Toriel says Frisk is the first one to fall down in "a long time". This seems pretty subjective, but we must remember that the Dreemurs' species never dies of old age, so her perspective of a long time is likely much longer than ours. Either way, Undyne wouldn't be alive, let alone in a place to kill humans. Additionally, if you choose to play dumb during her fight and let the first attack hit you, she'll repeat that attack, trying to make you understand how her gimmick works, and telling you that: "I thought if I beat you like this, it'd truly show how strong monsters could be." This implies that only Asgore has killed humans, since he's clearly leagues above the common monsters in more than just lifespan, and even if it was the previous captain or another royal guardsman that killed one or more of the humans, Asgore is still to blame, he still gave the edict that every human that fell into the underground should die.
@epicpokenerd_GOLR
@epicpokenerd_GOLR 23 күн бұрын
I disagree with a major trend in this video, and that's ignoring running away. Almost every fight in this game can be run from, which should be the first action one should take in any fight. The choice to beat something to death should only be accepted if running has failed or is impossible. If you can run but choose to kill, then you choose to kill. Note: The bandage has a secret stat that allows Frisk to Run 100% of the time. So in my opinion, any fight that they can run, they should run. If you equip anything else, then you can make the claim that any fight that they fail to run from is fair to fight. I disagree with Toriel being a moral kill, as she can't kill you at any point. At some point, the fight is Frisk beating up a woman who won't fight back and that is immoral no matter how you look at it.
@JacksonVoet
@JacksonVoet 5 күн бұрын
The simple answer actually was made by Sans. He says in certain neutral route dialogue at the judgement hall that self defense is okay, but ponders that, if you have a sort of “special ability”, which is referring to the power of saving, that isn’t it our responsibility to get the best possible ending. He essentially says that if we only had one life, self defense would be perfectly justified. But since we cannot die and control time and monsterkind’s fate, he gives us the Uncle Ben responsibility moral.
@pachuyanki896
@pachuyanki896 4 күн бұрын
So in the monster kid room, you say that saving him in the only moral thing to do, but then again I feel like undyne slowly approaching would scare frisk to run away, now watching as monster kid falls down, I’d say is morally wrong, that’s just my thought
@agsilverradio2225
@agsilverradio2225 19 күн бұрын
Trying to kill Nabstiblook is not justifyed, because Frisk was the agressor in that situation. I would also say it's probly best to spare Whimson, and others that you can spare on the first turn.
@joeyswafford3956
@joeyswafford3956 9 күн бұрын
I don’t know if killing muffet is moral as they do say that someone (metaton) said that you hate spiders and kill them so she could have seen you as a threat
@biglio2304
@biglio2304 25 күн бұрын
7:43 yeah but I challenge you not try to kill. If you are low healt her attacks miss on purpose
@adamotog.7812
@adamotog.7812 5 күн бұрын
To add insult to injury to the choice to spare or kill Asgore, I believe on the third time of Flowey interruping his Spare, Flowey lets you talk to him, and Asgore kills HIMSELF! So even if you did get to spare him, it was still going to be tragic.. Very truamatizing for a kid I'd imagine
@hacker-jc8mv
@hacker-jc8mv 17 күн бұрын
I Think that killing muffet is a tilt on the bad side because unlike most monsters muffet only hurts you if she thinks your a bad person she doesn’t go around just killing people also you can be on the genocide route but spare muffet because she only hurts people that hurt her spiders.
@egifford77771
@egifford77771 25 күн бұрын
I got undertale a couple days ago and I’m doing geno route am I evil for liking to kill the monsters?
@WyvrnOnYT
@WyvrnOnYT 24 күн бұрын
Nope. Play the game the way you want. Genocide route is a banger.
@zombiedalekweck2243
@zombiedalekweck2243 24 күн бұрын
Yeah, all agreeable. Some extra bits: If Frisk gets to the part where Toriel actively avoids damaging them... Then it becomes more vague, still justified, however, but a more mercy route should be chosen, I feel like. People already pointed this out ten billion times, so sorry, Frisk was never in danger with Papyrus. Etc wtc... Totally unjustified to kill him. The only real danger is that he captures them long enough for Undyne to come, but even then, I feel like Papyrus would intervene and help Frisk fight Undyne. He's too nice of a guy to watch her murder Frisk. I'd say Asgore is more lenient on not killing him. However, it is important still either way. But yeah, pretty much agree. Maybe Greater and Lesser dogs are a little less, so since Frisk could just throw their stick and get it over with, but even then. I do think that when the chance arrises to run or spare, Frisk should take it. Regardless still justified to kill. Also, I haven't seen anyone point this out with R1 and R2. I can't remember but they say "CAPTURE" you. Not kill you. Then again, they might change after you kill their boss. Just adds vague and ambiguity to it. Nothing else. Still, an either way, thing...
@FastKnight401
@FastKnight401 9 күн бұрын
trying to capture someone is still an act of aggression, and fighting against it still counts as self-defence. Just because they're not trying to kill you doesn't mean it's not self-defence.
@babaganoosh138
@babaganoosh138 16 күн бұрын
Would the player be justified in killing vulkin seeing as how it is just trying to help you.
@Julnz
@Julnz 4 күн бұрын
While I know many have corrected you on the papyrus being unable to kill you comment, I feel it’s also worth mentioning that after you lose to papyrus 3 times, you’re given the option to not fight him at all. Papyrus willingly gives up when he sees you want to leave that badly
@ellie7252
@ellie7252 4 күн бұрын
11:22 just a correction, they*. Mad Dummy is never referred to by male pronouns in the story, nor by any of the creators outside of the narrative. then, as you know, in the Nintendo Switch version, we see Mad Dummy's story extended, and find out they're a trans woman, so, further so, she*, in retrospect.
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