Is Undertale's Neutral Route Morally Wrong?

[@WyvrnOnYT]

One thing I forgot to say near the end. I am not a "lore expert" when it comes to Undertale. If there's anything in this video that is objectively incorrect, please feel free to correct me. Edit: Many commenters have corrected me on Papyrus' bossfight and how you can't die during it. I appreciate it but There's no need to correct me on that anymore 😂😂

[@W.d_Gaster]

Tbh the only nitpick is that MTT is a ghost like Nabstablook or Mad Dummy, so he does count as a person.

[@friskandcoplay580]

papyrus can't kill you btw he just puts you in the "capture room"

[@logicallouis543]

you said papyrus can kill you, he cannot

[@Arcana_zero_studios]

Honestly, I would've just looked at all the different neutral endings, then examining the morality of how you got there. Did you get the ending where you killed Undine? Well, you've SEEN how psychotic that fish lady acts. It doesn't matter that she's shouting about justice for monsters and is called a heroine by all the monsters, you're a small child and she's a knight throwing spears at you like she's Vergil and they're his summoned swords. If she knew about it she would definitely try throwing out a judgement cut and yell 'scum' at you. Undine is a walking fight or flight vibe check and she can deny you the ability to run.

[@Arcana_zero_studios]

9:39 WOAH WOAH WOAH, PAPYRUS IS THE ONE FIGHT THAT CAN NEVER KILL YOU! NOT EVEN TORIEL'S FIGHT IS THAT SAFETY PROOFED! HE WILL DROP HIS ATTACK THE SECOND YOU FALL INTO 1 HIT KILL RANGE AND 'CAPTURE' YOU BY TAKING YOU TO HIS LAUGHABLY EASY TO ESCAPE SHED! HELL HE EVEN STOPS TRYING ALTOGETHER AFTER 3 CAPTURES AND ESCAPES!

[@aureliamastergoomba1278]

9:45 The only error I found in this video so far: Papyrus is the only monster Frisk encounters that can *never* kill them! Papyrus lowers Frisk down to 1 HP, and captures them by putting them in his shed. Papyrus also willingly heals Frisk up, so he does show that he does have a lot of restraint.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

Somebody else corrected me on this too, so thanks to both of you.

[@michaeldoerrler2363]

​@PenniNanaNanaBanana-Astra to be fair, even if humans have really low hp, they have far higher defense. Frisk with a plastic knife can deal 30 damage to toriel at lv 1, while monsters in the core who are trained mercenaries deal single digit damage unless you have really high lv at which point frisk can take many hits from them.

[@doxthefox_]

Also, Papyrus does say that he wants to be your friend, but he can’t because his dreams

[@Occultmotion]

Just realised he said mettaton wasn’t a monster and was a robot and I can understand that but it’s actually a ghost that inhabits the body

[@nghiaoantrong899]

In a rational stand point, you don’t know that Papyrus won’t kill you, unless you take Sans word or been almost defeated by him in the first place

[@personunnamedREAL]

Actually, something not really covered in the neutral route often (because most people don't know about it) is that, if you go through the neutral route while killing a few monsters, flowey tells you "if you get through the whole underground without killing a SINGLE monster, I WON'T kill the king." But here's the thing. You still don't have to do true pacifist for this. Meaning, if you just spare everyone and befriend nobody, you can get to the end of the game and have Asgore not die!!! Right?? ......right? Wrong. If you do this and attempt to spare Asgore, he will recognize that keeping you trapped in the underground is cruel, and he will KILL HIMSELF so that you can take his soul, and then flowey destroys his soul. It doesn't really matter if you spare or kill him, he was going to die no matter what. He never really wanted to kill you, he just wanted the fight to be over.

[@PG3DWinner35]

Man, why do people not know this Seriously why?

[@libsh5684]

It’s weird how comments with so many likes can also have so few or even a single reply

[@generalyoda8325]

@@libsh5684 I mean there is nothing to reply to, it is a statement of fact

[@libsh5684]

@@generalyoda8325 good point

[@LordJanenmba]

Just furthering why Asgore is simply the best character im the game

[@Tails_The_Fox92]

The worst ending you can get is killing everyone except for glad dummy. Everyone everyone loves is dead and glad dummy will eventually become to depression with its coming hatred for the body it fused with.

[@Nooy_]

You could leave any one character alive and make the same argument

[@Iwouldsmashvincent]

The worst part ending has a required grammar check. You haven't seen bull yet.

[@IcyDiamond]

Ah yes the transphobia ending

[@Tails_The_Fox92]

@@IcyDiamond Fucking real

[@Tails_The_Fox92]

@Nooy_ Not really. Mad Dummy is a special case since they'll be depressed of two reasons.

[@devaraanimation]

don't forget that you are still technically playing neutral in pacifist

[@TJ-hg6op]

It’s still a part of the true pacifist, you are not killing at any chance you don’t have to. Even then, at the end you aren’t even the one who killed asgore.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

Yeah that's true these two routes are similar. So I guess Pacifist is just a narrowed down and more restrictive neutral route.

[@slaoqeubotoaq]

​@@TJ-hg6op you can kill asgore in pacifist tho

[@numerousbees12]

the deltarot consumes. don't forget, I'm with you in the dark

[@Childpfmonkey]

@@slaoqeubotoaqyeah but he attacked us first, and he wanted us to kill him. So us killing him is VERY justified.

[@robirdta]

I can't blame Frisk for accidentally killing the first froggit as its a new environment to them and probably reacted out of pure fear not realizing they could spare the froggit. Undyne is completely reasonable to kill/ not give water to, that monster is literally hunting you down and not giving you an option to surrender, Mettaton is throwing their life into mortal danger and makes it clear that they have ill intent towards Frisk, Asgore striaght up doesn't let you spare him, meaning Frisk has no other option than to kill him. Flowey is a no brainer, he's far too dangerous to be left alive and terrorize the underground, yes they're a deeply traumatized child who was unfairly hunted by humans, but he's shown he's indifferent to commit mass murder and extremely dangerous and willing to harm others if given the option

[@nghiaoantrong899]

Fair point, for Asgore though, I think it is somewhat better if you spare him after winning That doesn’t make killing him unjustified, but a bit lower on the moral scale

[@QSBraWQ]

to not give water to undyne is to pour out whole cooler on the ground via a single cup at a time. that is pretty sadistic and morally wrong, imo

[@ThisIsntAYoutuber]

@@nghiaoantrong899 Asgore also has the mindset where he feels guilt and wants Frisk to finish him off if he loses. If you spare him and he isn’t murdered, then he commits self-unalive and renders your choice meaningless. (Censored because of youtube) It’s a lose-lose situation where he can’t be spared ever, because his guilt can only drive him forward or to the grave.

[@crypt5129]

Self-defense is not always morally justifiable. Frisk's soul would free potentially thousands of monsters (idk if they ever say how many, at least more than one) of equal worth. If it's between Frisk and even just two monsters, Frisk is not morally justified disregarding any further context that may change the math, 2>1

[@jevilsugoma1743]

​@@crypt5129 it is, stop saying bs

[@funkyflame7037]

It's straightup impossible to say if the neutral route is morally good or bad, because your actions can range from killing nobody but not hanging out with undyne, to killing literally everybody except one enemy that is required to continue the geno route

[@gnarled128]

Yeah… I think videos like this miss the point of it being called the NEUTRAL route

[@tuftyplayz]

I feel like it shouldn’t be called nutral cuz that implies it’s ALWAYS nutrel. Which it is not

[@thegoldendiamond9142]

@@tuftyplayz A fair point the morality on the neutral run can be very questionable on my first playthrough I killed everyone expect Papyrus I didn't genocide a area I just killed every monster I ran into, my logic was self defence first I killed Toriel because she was holding Frisk against there will and Toriel can kill you unlike Papyrus I imagine Frisk would be very reluctant to kill Toriel but would think they have no choice.

[@helloeverybody.8455]

This may be a random enemy to bring up, but killing Vulkin seems a bit more morally questionable than other monsters. I'd still say it's justified since your life is still in danger, but it's made clear throughout the fight that Vulkin is not trying to hurt you, they're just stupid. Vulkin thinks their attacks heal you. Killing Vulkin would still fall under self-defence, but it would be a little worse than killing someone like Doggo or Migosp.

[@chess123mate]

I think many of the enemies are like that and are simply trying to interact with you, and don't realize that their magic hurts you.

[@MarcusCollins69]

being ignorant does not hold up in any court of law

[@dragondastan4763]

@@chess123mate Haha! NO! They deliberately stated that Vulkin is just stupid. Only them. It's a bit weird for them to explicitely state that if everyobne does that.

[@EEE.654]

​@@dragondastan4763 most monsters don't know you're human. look at bratty and catty, papyrus, the snowdin shopkeeper, and basically every regular monster besides the ones in the core. if they knew you were human, why would they be friendly with you if it was the king's orders that every human dies? also i'm not counting MK, they're a child and probably didn't even think humans were real

[@YahooYoutuber2048]

I mean, whimsums do not want to fight you either.

[@gamerdomain6618]

9:39 You can *_not_* die to Papyrus. He truly does nonlethally capture you, just as he claimed, and then put you inside of a jerry-rigged jail inside of his shed. … he made the bars too wide, like he did at the bridge before Sans' sentry point, though.

[@theultimatebadass-cq1xh]

thanks for the useless information nerd 🤓

[@Lavenderflowergacha]

2:48 Sans actually can’t remember. He is just very good at examining body language and he knows of the existence of resets. Though never experiencing one.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

But he is aware of the resets based on the dialogue of his genocide boss fight correct?

[@Lavenderflowergacha]

@@WyvrnOnYT no, as I said before he is EXTREMELY good at reading body language. Hence why Asgore would make him the judge. Since he is extremely good at estimating events and emotions based on the body.

[@Bengt2509]

In the video it says nothing about remembering. Sans is AWARE of resets (as implied by his “timelines starting and stopping” dialogue) he just doesn’t remember anything

[@Lavenderflowergacha]

@@Bengt2509…? Well, one the creator literally responded thinking he remembered and 2 “these” implies he remembered the resets in the creators context if it was just “aware of resets” then you would be correct with your statement. And the creator even implies they are not very knowledgeable in the lore of Undertale.

[@MutedAndReported3032]

Well, unlike the player and Flowey, Sans doesn’t know what happened in past timelines, eg. before a reset or loading your save. But Sans does know that resets are a thing, and he knows that you have control of the timeline due to being a human. This is also why Sans is so “lazy”, or rather, depressed. It’s tough for him to do his best and try to achieve things because he knows that all of his effort can just be undone at the whims of the player, or Flowey before Frisk fell into the Underground.

[@Aktedya1-jt7vw]

I think trying to kill Nabstablook after willingly engaging it is ... questionable. At least on the first turn, I don't see a reason to not try talking to it. Also, something to consider about the self defence thing is that you can attack enemies until they don't want to fight anymore.

[@angelapuzzle]

Do they tho Cause yeah their names turn yellow but they still attack you

[@dropthehatantonycraft7516]

@@angelapuzzleYou may also accidentally go too far and end them anyway. Assuming a more “human” play through where you don’t save scum everything, that’s already being locked in Neutral.

[@legalza0843]

My argument against your point is that even if they allow you to spare them once you beat them up they on the contrary would never spare if frisk is on low hp. torial notices when your hp is low and starts purposefully missing, and Pap lowers you to exactly one before capturing you. But other monsters don’t do this, they have no mercy so thus I don’t feel too bad about them getting a taste of that same medicine.

[@Aktedya1-jt7vw]

@@angelapuzzle A Froggit in the game directly says "If a monster does not want to fight you"

[@Aktedya1-jt7vw]

@@legalza0843 Well, the monsters want your soul, right? So they can escape the underground that humans trapped them in. There isn't really a way to accomplish their goal peacefully. You'd probably just get killed later after being captured by Papyrus (maybe just not by HIS hand)

[@Discount_Jesus]

I think it depends on how you play the neutral ending- like fighting monsters isn’t wrong, most of them are trying to kill you or doing something that would lead to you dying. I think where it becomes morally wrong to fight on neutral is when an enemy either starts to spare you or tries to run away. Like killing Undyne is justified, but because on neutral you can never kill papyrus before he stops fighting, killing him is wrong

[@ivanlol7153]

Random enemies can be justified as self defense(except whimsun). Toriel can be justified as she does ask us to prove us we are strong enough to survive, imply we have to fight her. You can't kill Papyrus before he spares you so Papyrus is unjustified as you have to attack after he surrenders. Undyne, Muffett, Mettaton and Asgore literally want your soul so that's justified. Flowey attempts to kill you immediately. Attempts to kill you over and over again until he's satisfied while taunting you which definitely counts as strange and unusual forms of torture on top of murder. Flowey is 100% justified. Keep in mind this is just my opinion. If you disagree that's okay.

[@someone8206]

Moldsmal can also be spared instantly

[@ivanlol7153]

@@someone8206 oh yes, forgot about Modsmol, it’s self defense except whimsun and modsmol

[@akitteninabowl8872]

Some enemies can be spared by bringing them down to low hp

[@ivanlol7153]

@@akitteninabowl8872 yeah but they still try to kill you even if they’re yellow

[@akitteninabowl8872]

Jerry

[@SoundtrackDetector]

Would be cool to see if this is also true for yellow, especially considering clovers naive but noble intentions making even its geno route sympathetic, even if morally wrong

[@BetterCaulipowerSall-vq9yn]

Decibat is iffy for you to kill, as he engaged the fight but he's only asking for you to be quiet. You are following Dalv around, and he's asking you to leave him alone, so I don't think killing him is justifiable. You can't kill Martlet. El Bailador is iffy, as he engages the "fight" but he's just asking for you to play DDR with him. Starlo is iffy, as he spends the entire wild east bonding with you, and it's clear he's not in a good state when you fight him, but he does outright say he's going to kill you several times. Guardner is justifiable, he's binded you with vines and is saying that it's going to kill you. Axis is questionable, because you are trespassing and he's trying to simply apprehend you, but he does say that he's going to kill you several times. You can't kill flowey in neutral.

[@ΒύρωνΒακαδήμας]

a lot of monsters are trying to kill you all the time so as much as u love all the characters, if you're a random kid in a place full with monsters that say they need your soul then HOW can you not be terrified?

[@Trihexagonal]

By the fact that you cant really permanently die.

[@StarMisura]

Yeah, terrified, and what do kids do when they’re terrified? Usually they ran away. Let’s say if Undertale is real, would Frisk ACTUALLY have enough willpower to actually KILL anyone instead of running?

[@ame-chan579]

​@@StarMisura plus, through the power of *d e t e r m i n a t i o n ✨✨* you can literally not die because it's not determination itself, is de-termination (same as when Frisk re-fuse during the final pacifist fight). It's like an adult play fighting with a child or a small animal, Idk if I explained myself well here.

[@thegoldendiamond9142]

Absolutely right I think its silly when people bring up Frisk can't die, that may be true but 1 even if Frisk can't die they can still feel pain and 2 most characters don't know Frisk can do that.

[@ΒύρωνΒακαδήμας]

@@StarMisura Buuuuut! If frisk *does* understand they're power of "coming back after death" (which since Flowey realized it without too much difficulty other than dying a few times if I remember correctly) they would probably not fear to go head to head with a strong foe, like Glide or even Undyne, and frisk as character is a kid that could someting crazy that would probably be really dangerous (also the thing about a kid running away is actually very accurate! IT IS LITERALLY AN OPTION IN THE BATTLE MENU)

[@Green-3c34y65vrbu]

14:35 I never really understood why people say this about Napstablook, Mettaton, Papyrus or Sans. it's not like Sans and Papyrus are UNDEAD CORPSES, they're skeleton-type monsters. so no, they're not already dead. same with Napstablook, it's not like he's the soul of some human, he's just a ghost monster, a type of monster. and Mettaton isn't a robot, he's a ghost possessing a robotic vessel created by Alphys. I know you don't use that as an argument for why killing them is okay, but you mentioned it as if it's a fact, so I wanted to correct that, is all. love the video btw.

[@helio3928]

neutral is what actually would happen realistically

[@Mrsir529]

Frisk would basically be like “oh hey these guys don’t want to fight anymore” and spare them, or “oh crap these guys are trying to kill me” and kill them

[@StarMisura]

@@Mrsir529I don’t know if a child would ACTUALLY tried to kill anyone, so I feel like realistically Frisk would just run away

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

@@helio3928 tbf Frisk having the power to time loop after death is a thing in universe, so I think he may as well just use that to spare everyone.

[@fabricio-245]

​@@StarMisuraa normal child wouldn't, but a child with the power of a time loop dying a lot would probably in self defense

[@soulzzz1322]

9:45 he says "papyrus is" just when the dialogue box cuts off perfectly at "papyrus is"

[@DaichiOkami]

10:08 last time I checked papyrus cannot actually kill you. He always leaves you at 1 hp and just takes you to his garage to a supposed cell where the bars are too wide and the door is unlocked. Even if you lose to him 2 more times he just lets you go even without beating him.

[@daviddimitrov3696]

Remember Chara is not a demon people! We need more people who understand this. If you kill everyone YOU killed everyone. Chara only helped, even if you do a few genocide routes Chara even shows disgust.

[@ScapeVEVO]

Can’t you just like- run away tho I think assuming a kid will attempt to kill in self defense in the first place is presumptuous, if I’m a kid in this environment my first instinct is to run…

[@mintu5931]

I don't agree with the moster kid part. Undyne is literally moving to you trying to kill you and it's not like that it's your fault that monster kid tripped so Frisk trying to escape would make sense. Basically not risking your own life to safe another one makes sense for me especially because its expected that monster kid gets saved anyway by Undyne.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

I definitely should've taken more time to go over this encounter looking back on it. It's more complicated than it seems.

[@StarMisura]

Well, Frisk is a kid. From what I know about kids is that (if they’re not pricks) they want to help people that they see are in trouble

[@drypenny3561]

I'd argue Greator Dog was justified because he always looked nice and never said they wanted to kill you and just look happy and you need to do normal dog tricks that any other person would know to spare them so Frisk could understand that pretty nicely but yeah other that and the Toriel part great video!

[@Trihexagonal]

And you cant judge him cuz the spear, it would be like killing papyrus cuz bones

[@SuperBatSpider]

I do think we should factor in the fact Frisk can undo their own death if they fall. So no enemy is a true threat to Frisk (Except Flowey) so kill Flowey if you wish.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

It's something to consider

[@mado-wh4jv]

Not really, you could reset the universe a billion times to dodge a bullet, but for that matter, they aren't entitled to you to go your way to save them when they are trying to kill you. It is something that falls in a moral gray, it is not like seeing a person in danger and not saving them, here they are seeking to harm you.

[@SuperBatSpider]

@@mado-wh4jv Not entitled to be helped but still Sans makes a good point that if you have the amount of power and knowledge Frisk does you may have to consider that you have a responsibility to use it. Of course, in game and out of universe you can say: No, Frisk doesn’t have to spare enemies just because they are not truly in danger (Outside of the Flowey fight) but it should be considered.

[@semajniomet981]

"Hee hee hee. Did you really think I'd be satisfied... killing you only one time?" I remember those lines.

[@levonmartyr1443]

​@@SuperBatSpider Something else to consider...Dying hurts. For a child to die painfully, come back and spare their murderer is a lot to ask. And how many times will this happen with in a run? Guess it's a good thing they're so determined

[@Frisk133.]

Be honest if you were frisk realistically, would you ACTUALLY spare flowey after the omega flowey fight?

[@Bagelvr63292]

No.

[@why8569]

Yes.

[@Nightmarionne-FNaF]

I would probably. I’m too kind for my own good

[@skeletonjanitor]

No

[@ame-chan579]

Yes, but in the sense of "remember this day the rest of your poor, pathetic life and live. Live and engrave in your heart that you're here today because I wanted to." Even tho Flowey WAS Asriel, he's NOT Asriel anymore so no sympathy nor fucks given towards that psycho flower xd

[@polocatfan]

A big thing people fail to consider is that you can reset if you die IN UNIVERSE. Yes, normally them trying to kill you would be wrong, but they not only have a valid reason to do so, they also will never actually succeed. This is why you're judged harsher than you would be if resetting wasn't an in-universe mechanic. That's why I would consider Clover's neutral route more justified, Clover was told they can get reset if they die, but since they don't remember resets, they have no actual reason to believe Flowey.

[@Awesomeflame16]

But why wouldn't clover remember resets. He's also determined like Flowey, and Flowey can definitely remember resets (Aside from True Ones)

[@semajniomet981]

Well, it seems that Clover can remember reloads (read: unalives) that are performed by Flowey ("..." "..." "Why?"), and retain some knowledge of previous resets (as shown in Flowey's boss battle), but can't directly SAVE or LOAD until the end of the Vengeance Route.

[@OmegaChase1002]

Their reasons are not that valid. Especially muffets.

[@pro-hz7kx]

@@Awesomeflame16 Clover doesn’t remember resets because Flowey is more determined. They might as well believe that they only have one life and that’s it. The only reset they remember is genocide one because in that case Clover resets, not Flowey. And that’s why Clover is completely justified in fighting back, as they have no reason to not believe that they’re going to embrace oblivion once someone beats them.

[@iryoku_7491]

@@pro-hz7kx This doesn't explain why Clover can't remember resets, because in the original Undertale, Frisk is more determined than Flowey, but Flowey still remembers resets

[@Tammythemouse]

Oh no you can absolutely murder mettaton, robot in body but that is still a monster, since you might not know that’s a ghost in a robot body Alphys made mettaton for… mettaton (the ghost) then using mettaton (the robot) she convinced asgore she could make a robot with a monster soul but really it was a ghost possessing a robot giving it a soul, once a ghost is fused with a body it can be killed like any other monster, we see this with mad dummy in the genocide route as they turn into glad dummy having fused to their body and can now be killed, this also applies to mettaton Morally? Yeah frisk wouldn’t know, mettaton has purposefully hid his life behind him and tried to erase all the evidence of him being a ghost, the most you can find is the key which leads to his old house but even then it’s not clear Frisk killing mettaton would be justified as it would be like breaking a machine that had gone haywire and is now dangerous, you don’t think about it too much cause it’s just a robot, but even in the externally off chance frisk did learn this was a living person that isn’t bound by code and can’t be rebuilt as their soul would break once they die, mettaton still admits that someone has to die, that he would rather kill you thank let all of humanity die, and that he hired people to murder you, at the end of the day that’s just not okay and knowing he isn’t just a robot doesn’t change that

[@StarMisura]

Btw Napstablook, Mettaton(the ghost), Papyrus, and Sans aren’t UNDEAD humans or something, they’re some TYPE of monsters. They resembles the characteristics of ghosts and skeletons, but they were never dead (like… they were not humans who died and came back in a different form)

[@matthew_wagner813]

But Mettaton doesn’t have a thirst for blood thats a lie from Alphys so she can pretend save Frisk from fake dangers Mettaton says he doesn’t want to harm humans before the fight

[@Tammythemouse]

@@matthew_wagner813 yeah but he still very clearly says he wants to kill you so he can get to the surface and that he's okay with it, like obviously he doesn't want to kill a human he likes humans but he's sorta just like "yeah this is my plan, i hired people to kill you but i guess i gotta do it myself! alphys was putting you in fake danger but i'm actually gonna kill you"

[@matthew_wagner813]

@@Tammythemouseyeah you’re right

[@redbool1115]

Correct answer is that it depends on who you aren’t a pacifist with. Killing some one like undyne, mettaton, or the core enemies is 100% justified self defense

[@b8conbear330]

I wouldn’t say mettaton is tho, I have a feeling he wasn’t actually trying to kill frisk but more was set up as a reason to prop up alphys. Alphys literally gets exposed at the end of the core for setting up stuff to oppose frisk and who says they didn’t tamper with mettaton? Mettaton was probably only attacking frisk and doing things with them because it got him views and was good for show buisness. And we aren’t even considering the fact alphys trusted you and you murdered mettaton who was there friend causing them to commit suicide later in the run.

[@thegoldendiamond9142]

@@b8conbear330 Mettaton says during his fight that he wants your soul, I won't deny that Alphys committing suicide is horrible but if Frisk kills Mettaton that's on Mettaton not Frisk Frisk didn't start it.

[@b8conbear330]

@@thegoldendiamond9142 I’m such a dumb person for thinking that, my apologies. Anyways thanks for responding

[@thegoldendiamond9142]

@@b8conbear330 No worries you simply forgot its no big deal.

[@bharatmatakayoda]

Yeah I agree with Mettadon He wasn't sure u could defeat asgore so that's probably why he tried to stop you So killing him 100% justified as it proves your strength to him

[@loganshark667]

Tbh, i dont think killing tori is justified for a few reasons 1: she actively *avoids* killing frisk when they're fighting. Although she can accidentally kill Frisk, she doesn't straight up attempt to. Plus simply challenging someone in a fight doesn't justify killing. 2: tori actually has a good reason for keeping frisk at the ruins, as according to her most of the other monsters would kill frisk, which actually is true. So it becomes less like tori holding frisk against her will. And more like tori trying to prevent frisk from getting yourself murdered. Kinda like a mother trying to stop a child from running into a busy high-way. Which kinda makes killing tori, the furthest from justified. Also tori litterally saves frisk from death so yeah.. its straight up impossible for frisk to justify killing toriel. Unless She considers a child killing a mother for trying to stop said child from doing something dangerous justified.

[@FastKnight401]

The thing that made me kill Toriel was that I was trying to get her health low enough to spare her. In a real situation, it would be "fight enough to let her know you're strong enough to survive". However, the final hit does way more damage than all the other hits, which took me by surprise. You could think of it as a training accident. Though what Frisk intended matters. Is it an intentional kill, or an accidental kill? That changes pretty much everything. That's what makes these questions so complicated, it's not JUST about the action, it's about why they chose that action in the first place as well.

[@gnarled128]

@@FastKnight401 I actually think Genocide is a perfect supporting argument for your point! In a blind neutral run, Frisk might think that FIGHTing until her health gets low is the solution to spare Toriel after finding that ACTing does nothing, with that final, stronger attack doing more damage being a genuine surprise to them, which to me makes it seem accidental. Meanwhile in the Genocide route, you kill Toriel in one swing, which I would definitely call intentional.

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

I think what happens with Toriel mostly is that it feels justified to _fight back_ : she's testing you, so you try to show her you've got what it takes, hoping she'll acknowledge you. The problem then is that the game intentionally uses crits to fuck with you in that case. The equivalent of "one punch hit wrong and now our enthusiastic sparring session has a body count".

[@agsilverradio2225]

I think that, in a neutral run, you are not only justifyed in killing Flowey, but morally obligated to.

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

Yeah, I don't think letting the evil time-warping flower demon who's already tried to become a god once run around is... a great idea.

[@thegoldendiamond9142]

Absolutely unless you've done the true pacifist run you'd have no reason to think Flowey has any sense of decency at all, in neutral and regular pacifist he's to dangerous to be left alive.

[@Mr_k1rb3h]

I did a run and when I beat asgore I spared him and he told me to kill him anyway beacuse he said “I’m sorry but we just can’t have a happy ending, take my soul and leave this place.” And when flowey takes the souls he just says “let’s get this over with” and puts me in the end credits without fighting omega flowey

[@Bengt2509]

So then you’ve already done neutral. Flowey skips becoming photoshop/omega/whatever flowey if you’ve already finished neutral

[@WyvrnOnYT]

Wow really? I didn't know something like that could happen. That's pretty cool.

[@Bengt2509]

@@WyvrnOnYTthat happens once you reset and do a neutral route again. Flowey skips becoming photoshop/omega flowey

[@Mr_k1rb3h]

@@Bengt2509 no I started in a new account and was very confused

[@Mr_k1rb3h]

@@Bengt2509 bcz I was trying the Nintendo switch version for the first time

[@gumballfan13]

One thing that I should point out is that you can abort the Genocide Run to become a Neutral Run at any point in the game. However, I would think these routes are still morally wrong to a degree, especially if you abort the Route in Hotland. There's a unique ending for it, but one thing I should point out is that Frisk still has an urge to kill the monsters during the New Home segment as a smile appears above the encounters. I just thought it was a bit interesting.

[@Bengt2509]

You can abort until the final “but nobody came”

[@WyvrnOnYT]

That's a really good point. Aborting a genocide route, especially deeper into the game, gives us a neutral ending where we indeed were a villain.

[@semajniomet981]

@@WyvrnOnYT "I should have killed you when I had the chance."

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

Muffet is a weird one, we're supposed to go all "aww, what a cute friendly monster, she only... attacks... and kills... people who don't pay money to her spider charity..." and yeah, what can I say, she's literally just a mugger.

[@ppowersteef]

One thing I like to point out is the Snowman/Snowman Piece interaction. While it's technically not part of the combat or neutral route, it is a rather personal bit of morality. You have the option to take the snowman piece all the way to the end, but you can also eat or drop the piece in front of the snowman. After doing it a second time, he'll never forgive you. This even gets dialogue if you've done a True Pacifist afterwards, to reflect on your actions.

[@KasecTheTraveler]

Froggit says "Monsters wont want to fight you when their hp is lowered" or something along the lines. Clearly, attacking when you can spare the enemy for good is the immoral thing to do

[@merphinsky5193]

That Froggit you are talking about is the same first Froggit you encounter with Toriel. And as stated in the video, it is ok to kill him. And if you kill him, he won't show up to tell you what you are reffering.

[@KasecTheTraveler]

@@merphinsky5193 What about what TORIEL says? She tells you to NOT fight enemies, that she will sort the mess up right before the room you encounter that Froggit. Just stall. And after that, you will have Froggit tell you if you hurt monsters enough they won't fight you anymore. And conveniently, Froggit appears ONCE Toriel leaves.

[@selena3467]

​@@KasecTheTravelerThat Froggit is weaker than the other Froggits. You can oneshot this one with a Stick while the others can't be oneshot. Furthermore this is Frisks first real combat encounter after Flowey. It is not unreasonable trying to fend it off with a stick. Flowey a literal Flower can bring you down to 1HP with one single bullet and survived a fireball straight into his face. It's not wrong to at first assume that all monster are as strong as Flowey or Toriel and therefore attack it in the heat of the moment. Also Flowey literally says that in this world it's kill or be killed. This is an unknown place for humans with unknown inhabitants and if Flowey is the first one that you encounter it's not unreasonable that you attack a Frog monster that innetiates combat with you - regardless of what Toriel has said before.

[@StarMisura]

@@selena3467I think Frisk’s actions could be justified based on the INTENTIONS. The last hit is stronger than the others, so if you *tried to* prove to Toriel that you’re strong enough by lowering her HP, but accidentally actually killing her, it could maybe be justified since it’s an accident and she told you to prove to her? It’s like an accident in training. So we can’t really count it if we don’t know Frisk’s intentions

[@mado-wh4jv]

Something I love about the neutral route is the closure for the children's human souls who were murdered before you by supposedly Asgore (although there are hints they could have died before reaching him). It is satisfying as an ending the fact that once you get to fight flowey they are the ones to answer your call as they are the only ones who would realistically be sympathetic to your on self-defense. So you get to sort of avenge them and free them from their limbo.

[@theoriginalchuckler9594]

The end RUINs dialogue you got only happens if you trigger a genocide and abort it, iunno, think genocide is pretty non-moral

[@WyvrnOnYT]

Is that so? I don't believe the added context matters though because this dialogue has nothing to do with previous routes of the game, and only has to do with the choices you made at the ruins. I think regardless of whether or not this dialogue requires an aborted genocide route, my opinion would stay the same.

[@MutedAndReported3032]

That’s not true. This dialogue is triggered when you spare Toriel but have killed any monsters in the Ruins. He says something different if you killed Toriel, then reloaded and spared her, though, even if you have killed other monsters. This is something that most players do on their first playthrough, so that might be why you thought this was exclusive to an aborted geno route.

[@theoriginalchuckler9594]

@@MutedAndReported3032 Ah, that's my bad, I've only ever really seen it in the context of aborted genos, personally. Forgot about the requirement just being exp + SPARING Toriel.

[@wasabi5134]

What I've always wondered: If your SOUL shatters into pieces when you die, how are those who are trying to kill you for your SOUL going about taking it when they kill you? Do they just... sweep up the pieces and deliver them to Asgore?

[@Trihexagonal]

Maybe alphys assembles them in lab or smt?

[@matoViva9]

I think the whole SOUL break animation is just for the looks. I mean it would be pretty lame if everything disappeared and just left the SOUL alone on the screen before the Game Over appears. Maybe Toby could have made it so on Game Over we see the SOUL being trapped in a container (like Asgore's), but I feel like it wouldn't give the same effect.

[@bharatmatakayoda]

Hummans can reset untill they give up their soul There's no reset after that from what I know

[@mrslasher1064]

It depends on which monsters you kill Most monsters unjustly attack you,so defending yourself is the moral action,however you can cause enough damage to a monster to a point where they're too weak to fight and then spare them,that's what i did on my first playthrough,on my second playthrough i killed every monster i encountered except for the main bosses,this would be less moral than just weakening them and then sparing them or running away,however it could still technically be considered an act of self defense because they did attack you first with intentions to kill you,however killing Toriel or Papyrus can most certainly be considered an evil action because neither of them had any intentions of actually causing lasting harm to you,but of course Frisk doesn't know that so I think even that could be considered not entirely evil or amoral...

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

Tories I agree, Papyrus not so much. He's being a very dumb enforcer but still an enforcer for the king that wants to kill you and take your soul (and possibly use it to destroy humanity, though come on, I don't believe Asgore would actually do that). He's still trying to confine you. Would it be evil to use deadly force in defence from a kidnapper just because they are trying to capture you alive?

[@zap5944]

9:41 you actually can't die in Papyrus boss fight, he will catch u and bring u to a prison that you really easy-escape prison

[@LIxion-p4k]

Sans: kid there’s o fine line between hood and evil. Frisk: what side am I on? Sans: Kid, you are the line

[@LIxion-p4k]

Good*

[@linkthehero8431]

17:56 I love the look on Flowey's face when you dodge his attacks at the beginning 🤣

[@NovikNova]

I'd say that while Frisk would attack if they see it as self-defense, they're just a kid. I doubt they would want to kill anyone assuming they have no reason to. This logic leads me to believe that Papyrus is spared by Frisk, as he specifically states he's sparing you, and at that point Frisk no longer has a good reason to kill Papyrus at all.

[@bharatmatakayoda]

In main story I think beside toriel and payprud all other main boses are 100% justified killing

[@agsilverradio2225]

Trying to kill Nabstiblook is not justifyed, because Frisk was the agressor in that situation. I would also say it's probly best to spare Whimson, and others that you can spare on the first turn.

[@MohammedAlkhars-u6r]

Personally i do not blame frisk for killing the monsters like any of them becuse they hit him to death several times he is nine or something

[@gabriellenaz914]

Something to note about Papyrus, he only knocks you out if you actually die to him. He even leaves water for you in case. while it might not be known on a first playthrough of a game (especially if you dont die to him) Papyrus never has the intent to kill, he doesnt even bring you to Undyne. He of course willingly spares you (in genocide and pacifist) so its always wrong to kill him

[@Sairot247]

The entire point of Frisk it's that they are a representation of the player, it isn't a regular human, it's you And by that perspective, neutral makes so much sense, we are learning the game, and it's the first time we have an RPG were you can spare enemies, we don't know the concept of genocide and pacifist routes, maybe we don't know how to proceed with certain characters in order to spare them, or we killed them by accident. My first route was neutral because my English wasn't the best, and I was getting used to the spare mechanic

[@Megalobert]

I'd like to say there *are* some monsters which I consider it's morally wrong to kill, like whimsum and vulkin. It's clear that whimsum encounters you by accideny and does NOT want to kill you, but only to defened herself and keep you away cuz she's scared. Her attacks don't even aim at you so the only way you can die is by intentionally getting hit, best thing to do here would be run or spare her. And with vulkin, she just wants a hug, but ends up unintentionally hurting you in the proccess, like a playful dog being too brute with a child. As before, the solution is sparing or flee same goes for temmie btw

[@Linktheangel1993]

Papyrus is not justified he spares and does not kill you he stops at 1 hp and if you lose to often he offers you to walk past him

[@MarcusCollins69]

but with the previous conversations "im gonna capture you and have the royal guards get you" which means death and another war that's fair game to kill

[@Linktheangel1993]

@@MarcusCollins69 well Papyrus is naive he thinks they take care of us and not about kill us, he taught it would be fun for us

[@MarcusCollins69]

@@Linktheangel1993 and being naive is not an execuse

[@Tyson-i7r]

​@@Linktheangel1993he's naive not a moron he knows for a fact undying is going to kill a child

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

​@@Linktheangel1993 I mean, if Hitler sends his dumbest SS who think they're going to take you to a sea holiday resort, are you obligated to go along with them to not hurt their feelings? I really think it boils all down to fighting in defence, and when it's not needed, stop. If someone lets you go and isn't going to be a threat any more, spare them. As long as they try to kill you, or capture you, they're fair game.

[@noxthedremoralord2683]

My answer to whether you’re good or bad on neutral Yesn’t

[@purple_guy_883]

I think that killing Papyrus was unjustified since no matter how many times you get hit PAPYRUS WON'T KILL YOU, he brings you down to 1 HP and then "captures" you so he can finally live out his lifelong dream.

[@citrinethecorgi]

Its definitely very sad to kill toriel, especially considering her relationship with sans. But i do kinda agree that attacking her is mostly justified. She is trying to trap you there with her so you cant go back home. If you think about it toriel in a way is being a little selfish here, while yes she is saying "its for your own good" and she wants to protect you. You have a right to want to return to your home from here and toriel is trying to force you to stay with her.

[@noeltlalka6476]

Yeah cause she let the 6 other humans leave and they all got killed by Asgore

[@TBNRnoob14]

Surely frisk would have some moral obligation if they were to talk to the frogs in the ruins who explain the spare mechanics and how most monsters don't want to fight?

[@Solesteam]

7:28 Toriel practically encourges you to kill her... Then drops her defense like 5 hits away from what you'd expect to be the finishing blow.

[@wow-roblox8370]

Counterpoint: you can flee for no consequence in the ruins, as you will always get away, to stand and fight when to flee is an option is morally wrong according to some moralities

[@DUSKvsDAWN]

I am so happy you point out that just because people like the genocide route, doesn't mean they are terrible people. People on the internet really can't seem to grasp this concept and immediately bombard you with things like "you are such a bad person, you should scooter ankle"

[@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity]

One of my leadt favorite things about undertale is theres not enough hateable characters wich means the game rarely trys to push you to kill in any way ut doesnt challenge your resolve. And the one super hateable character (Alphys) isnt killable

[@WyvrnOnYT]

lmao. True lol

[@crazygamingoscar7325]

Realistically, How (If you don't already know the rest of the plot, which invalidates killing anyone really (For in game, moral reasons, not external reasons)), is Alphys more hateable than Undyne?

[@friskandcoplay580]

Bro cannot handle morally grey characters 😭😭😭🙏🙏

[@WalkThrough_101]

Can't kill Alphys Mengele in any route, makes me sad :

[@charlottethekitty8717]

Jerry

[@_kirbmaster_6609]

I'm going to give my own thoughts. This is going to be a long comment. I'm not entirely sure about Toriel since she does, in fact, start the battle, but she also avoids killing you. You can die to her, but it's rather difficult, especially if you aren't actively trying to do it. However, since we're assuming it's Frisk's first playthrough and how often first-time players don't understand how to spare her, I'd say it's justified. Papyrus is completely unjustified. But I really like how the game handles him in terms of judging you because the judge, Sans, obviously doesn't like it when you kill his brother, so he'd judge you more harshly. But the game justifies this harsher judgment by making it literally impossible to kill him by accident, therefore removing any possible justification for killing him. By the way, in the game, Napstablook and Mad Dummy are both shown to use they/them and not he/him. It's very easy to make this mistake, but I still want to let people know if they get it wrong. Mad Dummy also later switches to using she/her in certain versions of the game (specifically Switch and Xbox, but yes, this is still canon). Also, Mettaton is even more confusing because, although the only way to learn this is by getting into a secret area in Waterfall, he is a ghost, not a robot. That's why you gain EXP from killing him. Also, he doesn't want to kill humans; he wants to entertain them. To do that, he'd need to absorb your soul and go to the surface. I'd still say it's justified, though, because he is rather clear about his intentions to kill you and take your soul. Finally, Asgore. He literally asks you to unalive him. If you don't, Flowey will. If you stop Flowey from removing him, he will commit self-die. In a neutral route, there is no way to spare him.

[@CelticVampireQueen]

That face flowey made on the video icon looks like that creepy teethy face my sister makes to scare me.

[@Clover-s6l]

I would also like to point out that if Frisk died and Re spawned you could try to Argue for Insanity since even though it is never shown in Game a Person could Freak out after discovering that they are Immortal so if you wanted to you could say that a more Realistic Person would also be Justified there as well for LITERALLY having everything they thought about Death be thrown OUT THE WINDOW and then being Judged negatively for not using mercy a Creature that LITERALLY made them DIE Im sure most would want to minimize the chances of this ever happening again and/or just go plain crazy and fight everything with the effects of LV not helping here at all

[@pro-hz7kx]

Yeah especially considering the fact that Frisk experiences physical pain and no one wants to experience something like being burned alive hundreds of times in a loop

[@hemishramchurn1492]

2:06 Yeah, I did that to some genocide full playthrough I saw on KZbin once. God damn it, I never should have been allowed to even touch a phone when I was 5.

[@Billyblue98]

7:00 I think one part of the rationality to this fight is to think more about Toriel's motivations. Just like Napstablook, even though you can't really tell at first, Toriel isn't really coming at Frisk to kill Even ignoring her avoiding killing you when you're at low health, her dialogue before and during the fight say it as well: She's trying to discourage you from leaving Which is not a good look for her either, but she also firmly believes Frisk will die on their way to Asgore or to Asgore himself. She wants Frisk to turn around and head back up into the house, not to kill them. And then also adding in the fact that when Frisk is at low health, Toriel's attacks get weaker, and when Frisk is even lower, Toriel just plain goes out of her way to aim her attacks off to the side to avoid hitting them Still not good to be holding Frisk against their will, but, outside of the constraints of the game, killing her is a bit much. (Unfortunately there is no "Just beat her down and walk past her unconscious but still breathing body" option, lol, though I guess something like that would make it too easy to avoid tough decisions) Edit: There's also the idea given through the intro to some battles that some Monsters aren't *actually* fighting you? I forget which ones in particular except for Shyren, but sometimes the flavor text talks about how the Monsters are minding their own business and just wander up to you. . . Honestly it's really weird, but yeah, those enemies it's probably better to spare But the Royal Guard? Nah, waste them, lol. Dust them all.

[@duckinsaneguy6102]

2:47 the characters KNOW there are resets but dont remember exactly what you did, flowey is most likely just numb from how many resets he did. Counting sans would include mettaton, toriel, temmie, asgore, actually just everyone. (Also there IS a flee option to run from enemies)

[@SomeDudeCauseYes]

no they don't, minus flowey as she can also remember the past. (sans dialogue is bc of the face, so he assumes it was bc he's too pro.)

[@SomeDudeCauseYes]

however, sans is aware of resets ("timelines starting and ending")

[@widelia2008]

1:09 As someone who dosen‘t have a guinea pig. I see this as an absolute win. (I subbed tho)

[@WyvrnOnYT]

💀Thanks for watching.

[@papermr.magolorguy7957]

Gotta say, this was an interesting video. I would love to see you do more morality character play through analysis with other games. Good job man!

[@Hivatel]

Generally speaking, even if you know someone is easily capable of being better, you are never obligated to help someone get there. If they choose to be evil, that's their choice. Whether you want to stop them and show them a better way, or fight back because you don't care, both choices are morally correct. Now, if they stop of their own volition and you go ahead and kill them anyways, that's wrong. Frisk not saving Monster Kid is still perfectly fine. Nobody is ever under any moral obligation to help anyone. It's not a good choice, but it's not an evil one either.

[@mobiasmobility_sixteen]

To be honest, I think the only reason I spared Flowey after his Omega fight (when I had Undertale at least...) was because when you think about it, it would just make him suffer more. Think about it. In the genocide run, he mentions to you (Frisk, not the reader) that he did _everything_ he could think of doing to every monster in the underground. Killing them, getting answers out of them, likely verbally abusing them as well... (among other things I don't really want to get into), he eventually got bored with it all. On top of that, he basically gets the last laugh when you kill him, since he says he knew you had it in yourself to be apart of his mentality of "kill or be killed." Am I really gonna let someone get satisfaction from that after trying to kill me? No. ...then again, I doubt Frisk would think about that when dealing with Flowey on their first run.

[@widelia2008]

My Dad would LOVE THE GENOCIDE RUN. he loves hard games :D

[@sergeantcatfish]

14:22 Mettaton is Napstablooks cousin, meaning he is a ghost. In the game ghosts can possess objects and become corporeal. But when they do, they can be killed. (Happens during mad dummy fight in no mercy run)

[@saddimpledion]

i recall mettaton saying “i have no desire to kill humans, my only desire is to entertain” so he doesn’t truly have a thirst for human blood. Alphys lies to you and enlists mettaton to torment Frisk so she can save them throughout Hotland to gain Frisks favour. That being said, he agreed to so I guess?

[@ViniciusDiasissy]

In my opnion neutral is is ok, It's self defense for monsters like Undyne and muffet, and while small monsters don't deserve dying (most don't even realise you're a human), a small child could accidentaly kill them in self defence. - Better than the people who say GENO is justificable, even with Papyrus, Maddy and Mk sparing you, you chasing monsters for hours, not letting them go while yhey ead for mercy and you always attacking on the first turn, meaning you are always the one to start fighting

[@ViniciusDiasissy]

I was thinking of what route I would do if I was in the underground, and it endup with me realising I would die to Muffet or Mettaton, but ignoring that. - If I was in the underground what would I do? Fight them...? Spare them...? Neither, I would just run from every encounter, monster want to fight me? Run, Napstablook is crying? Run, the dogs are after me? Run(1 is blind, 2 are dumb, 2 just care about the smell), bosses like Toriel would be harder, but I would just need to go out while she's sleeping, papyrus wouldn't kill me, so even if I couldn't run away he would do that thing if you lose 3 times, and undyne spare method is to run away in the first place. - With would endup with me dying on muffet stuck on her webs or with mettaton in that elevator, and even if I attacked monsters, it says is mostly on bases on intent, and I'll probably be more like "get away" then "I want you dead", so I don't think I would accidentaly kill anyone. - But what I am meaning to say is, some people say stuff like "why do you need to be nice to people that attack you?", but you don't need, you can run, you can attack untill you defeat them and let them go, you can scare monsters away, you can explain their attacks hurt you, you don't need to try getting along with them, just don't pick murder as your first option on peoples who are way weaker than you.

[@ViniciusDiasissy]

I guess another point is, what neutral run it is? A aborted geno? Killed one single monster at the beggining? Killed 80+ monsters while not activating geno?

[@jevilsugoma1743]

​@@ViniciusDiasissyI think you don't remember your debate with ultimate Capper,

[@ViniciusDiasissy]

@@jevilsugoma1743 who

[@jevilsugoma1743]

@@ViniciusDiasissy that troll face pfp guy in the video called "Undertale yellow all bossesmmmm" something like that, can you help with something I wanted to talk to that guy but mssges keep getting deleted what about you tell that Ultimate Capper guy to check my about me

[@Yuti640]

Are people seriously STILL harassing others over FICTIONAL CHARACTERS...?

[@manachromeYT]

Have you not been on the Internet?

[@SansINess53]

the ending where you almost kill everyone, leads to sans just hating you.

[@yukio_wp]

See, here's the thing, once you beat regular enemies to low health you get to spare them. That's it, well done! You won, the opponent's down. You can just walk away now. But no, you *choose* to kill, even though the more merciful option is available and it still fits the self-defence narrative. Of course, it doesn't apply when you accidentally kill them in one hit.

[@adinom687]

I don’t think it’s morally wrong to kill Papyrus. Especially if, say, you end the fight with like 3HP. Imagine if some guy kept talking about capturing you, brought you close to death, and now you’re morally expected to spare him because “He’s worn out”. That’s ridiculous. We also know Papyrus is stubborn and resilient. There’s nothing stopping him from getting rest and continuing to hunt us down “for the Royal Guard” except for our preconceived notions as a gamer of knowing that the boss fight is the probably the final time we’ll have an altercation with him. (And yes, Papyrus will never kill the human, but they don’t know that) And then you are in no way morally obligated to help Monster Kid. Undyne is literally right there and to help them is to move extremely close to her. You’re essentially jumping in front of a bullet (or spear) to save someone you met just two minutes ago and, again, Undyne is right there. She’s just as able to save Monster Kid as you are. I still liked the video, despite these disagreements because props to you for posting an Undertale video where you say there’s nothing wrong with killing Toriel.

[@Tyson-i7r]

Papyrus was going to bring undying there to kill you so probably best if you killed him also Papyrus is on that Dan Schneider shit Bro went on a date with a child that's probably not even in the double digits💀💀💀💀💀💀💀 do not let this man anywhere near Society

[@JacksonVoet]

The simple answer actually was made by Sans. He says in certain neutral route dialogue at the judgement hall that self defense is okay, but ponders that, if you have a sort of “special ability”, which is referring to the power of saving, that isn’t it our responsibility to get the best possible ending. He essentially says that if we only had one life, self defense would be perfectly justified. But since we cannot die and control time and monsterkind’s fate, he gives us the Uncle Ben responsibility moral.

[@HumanoidDerpling]

So glad there's someone bringing nuance to the discussion of Undertale's morality, it's been absent for far too long, and clearly by Toby Fox's own intent. You actually changed my mind about Toriel, and it caused me to see something I didn't see before: Toriel doesn't ever kill you, and not only doesn't seem disappointed if you kill her, but actively wants you to "fight or run away". I think that, with her endless years weighing down on her, she's attempting assisted suicide. The situation with Undyne may seem cut and dried, but it's a bit more interesting than that. It's clear she has a large amount of popularity, and that what she says may be taken as infallible. We can also assume that she's said similar things to other monsters. Obviously what she said is blatantly false, but that sure isn't obvious to the other monsters, and if she goes to fight Frisk and doesn't come back, the monsters will be grounded in their narrow-mindedness and false viewpoint tenfold. I'd argue this isn't just politically good, but that you're morally obligated to dispel deceit where possible. I actually think you're morally obligated to strike Asgore down. He's murdered 6 children, and as such deserves the death penalty. No amount of repentance can justify those actions. You might say it isn't Frisk's place to execute justice, and in an ideal world that'd be true. But who's gonna hold him accountable? The underground is largely anti-human to begin with, and all of them love Asgore. This is the only chance for him to get what's come to him.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

That's a good point about Asgore. It also makes me think more about how he obtained the souls. I'm no lore expert so I don't know if there's a lore-accurate answer, but Undyne could've possibly murdered the children too. Pretty interesting comment and something I would not have thought of otherwise.

[@HumanoidDerpling]

​@@WyvrnOnYT It's implied that the humans fall down in long stretches of time from each other. Toriel says Frisk is the first one to fall down in "a long time". This seems pretty subjective, but we must remember that the Dreemurs' species never dies of old age, so her perspective of a long time is likely much longer than ours. Either way, Undyne wouldn't be alive, let alone in a place to kill humans. Additionally, if you choose to play dumb during her fight and let the first attack hit you, she'll repeat that attack, trying to make you understand how her gimmick works, and telling you that: "I thought if I beat you like this, it'd truly show how strong monsters could be." This implies that only Asgore has killed humans, since he's clearly leagues above the common monsters in more than just lifespan, and even if it was the previous captain or another royal guardsman that killed one or more of the humans, Asgore is still to blame, he still gave the edict that every human that fell into the underground should die.

[@epicpokenerd_GOLR]

I disagree with a major trend in this video, and that's ignoring running away. Almost every fight in this game can be run from, which should be the first action one should take in any fight. The choice to beat something to death should only be accepted if running has failed or is impossible. If you can run but choose to kill, then you choose to kill. Note: The bandage has a secret stat that allows Frisk to Run 100% of the time. So in my opinion, any fight that they can run, they should run. If you equip anything else, then you can make the claim that any fight that they fail to run from is fair to fight. I disagree with Toriel being a moral kill, as she can't kill you at any point. At some point, the fight is Frisk beating up a woman who won't fight back and that is immoral no matter how you look at it.

[@semajniomet981]

Try reducing your HP to exactly 8 or 12, then run into her fireballs.

[@YahooYoutuber2048]

13:45 Like papyrus, she always spares you at the end of the fight. Attacking her is justified but finishing her off isn’t.

[@xxProjectJxx]

My first playthru of Undertale, I killed every boss except Papyrus, though I would have spared any boss if they had decided to walk away. At the end when Sans was explaining Exp in the judgement hall, I was like "I mean, it was all self-defense, so I don't feel bad" lol.

[@XileacoXhareah]

Don’t you dare touch my Guinea pig bruh

[@igalbitan5096]

In my first playthrough, I killed no monster but skipped befriending Undyne, so I ended up with the "neutral" route outcome.

[@TNT100CZ]

It is true it would be morally okay to kill muffet during the fight but if they had to heal and such got to the point where she spares you then i dont think it would be that morally okay

[@JACK0ACES]

This is probably something that was already said, but it is actually impossible to die to papyrus. Everytime you reach 1 hp, he will capture you and put you in his shed. He has absolutely zero intention to actually kill you, and even offers to quit fighting you if you lose to him enough times

[@AfterWall]

Neutral meant to be neutral so its not pacifist or genocide, you can kill all monsters except for 1 single froggit or spare everyone except for temmie its players choice to make perspective of murderer or saint guy morally in this run

[@comradealita]

As someone who loves Undertale. I LOVE this idea. and honestly, I think it would be really cool to do this topic but to encompass all of the different routes of Neutral. And don't worry, while there are 80+ variations of these endings. there's like 10 Actual endings of Neutral. Undyne, Family, Alphys, Papyrus, Metaton, Exiled Queen, Dog, and No King. There are variations in these, but overall they stay relatively similar in how the Underground is ran when the Human leaves. And in case you're wondering, the ending you talked about here, was the Papyrus ending :) but overall, loved the video and the topic! and I do have one point against yours with the first froggit you encountered. While yes, it does "jump" you, it can be seen as an over reaction to dusting it (don't want to go against TOS) when all it did was appear. and since in the previous room it was reinforced that "you don't want to hurt people" with the dummy, I can see this being one where you would try to talk first and toriel comes in to stop the encounter

[@Cheese-Slime-Sheriff]

2:48 Asgore actually has minor awareness of these resets. When you die and tell him you died to him before in a pacifist route, he nods his head sadly. He can’t remember entire resets, but he can remember your deaths.

[@the_real_tabby]

7:50 i would like to point out that you can refuse to hurt Toriel and then kill her right when you are able to spare her which she gives unique dialogue about how you hate her that much to attack at her most valuable. This does put Frisk at a different light because they are intentionally playing with her feelings. When it comes to morality it just depends on the individual players intentions and knowlege on the game because of how alot of choices can be explained to simply being oblivious.

[@inkymonstrosity]

I kinda love how the final choice on whether to kill or spare Flowey can even give pause to somebody who committed to a pacifist run on a first playthrough. I remember when Markiplier got to that point, despite having spared everyone else he encountered, he hesitated for a moment, and said, "If anyone deserved to die..."

[@sanzyboy3952]

I think toriel depends on how well you play after you fall to 2 hp it becomes very clear that she doesn't want to kill you so it can be up to debate

[@Mwjq_]

Just think that you are between 5 to 10 age and you only have a stick if a giant skeleton was infront of you and you cant flee wont you defend yourself? You might say “but we know info about him sans told he is not dangerous” since when we believe to strangers especially a skeleton whose job is look for humans?

[@nyAndiVT]

The only problem with the video's premise is it isn't Frisk making any of the decisions in the game, but the player (represented by the red SOUL). This is evidenced by the player "naming" Frisk, even though (as the Pacifist Route indicates), he already has a perfectly good name. In fact, if you give Frisk his canonical name, you get an abbreviated "Hard" version of the game. That said? There's a reason Sans doesn't judge you unless you killed Papyrus in that run. Because Papyrus explicitly will not kill you. If he reduces you to 1 HP he immediately ends the fight and puts you in a shed that locks from the inside. In other words, he thinks he's protecting you, and has no idea that capturing you will result in your death. Let me put it this way. You can literally kill every single monster in the game except Papyrus, and you will still get the neutral ending, and you even get the optional encounters with Sans later on. In one of those optional encounters, he makes it quite clear that were it not for his promise to Toriel to protect any humans who came out of the ruins, "You'd be dead where you stand." And while you can abort a no mercy run after killing Papyrus, Sans makes it clear that he detests you for doing it, although he still keeps his promise to Toriel if you spare monsters later on after killing Papyrus. So I'd say the only truly immoral thing you can do in the game is kill Papyrus. Any other killing you do can be classified as self-defense rather than murder.

[@aureliamastergoomba1278]

12:13 Unlike Papyrus, Undyne wants your blood.

[@r221grace]

what i feel about papyrus: If he spares you and you feel as if he cannot be trusted (IF you have not been captured yet), its i guess ok to kill him..? I mean idrk. If you fake out papyrus, that's morally wrong, obvi. If you get captured once or twice and then he tries to spare you when the battle is almost over, i feel like it would not be moral to kill him, after all, he does heal you and doesn't kill you. And also the fact that he seems genuine. If you get captured three times and then papyrus spares you, i feel as if a random man came up to me and started attacking me and then putting me in a shed with the intention of trapping me, 3 TIMES. (Even if you are being healed i dont feel as if it justifies the whole thing) i would NOT trust him, like what if he just captures us again. Ik sans tells u hes harmless, but also again, hes a total stranger, both of them Also papyrus is willing to harm u in the multicolor puzzle due to him allowing you to be endangered by all of these things: electrocution, piranha attacks and fighting monsters without consent.

[@Mrsir529]

9:40 No. You physically cannot die to Papyrus, no matter what.

[@deadlineuniverse3189]

Neutral is neutral. It’s everything in between Frisk not quite getting Genocide down (evil) and Frisk not quite getting Pacifist down (good)

[@SomeDudeWhoIsntDead]

finally someone makes a video on my favorite route

[@haydenbunk8583]

Frisk is a child. I don’t see how they know how to spare some monsters that are trying to to kill them

[@Trihexagonal]

I also dont see how he knows how to murder monsters instead of flee from them as a child

[@adamotog.7812]

To add insult to injury to the choice to spare or kill Asgore, I believe on the third time of Flowey interruping his Spare, Flowey lets you talk to him, and Asgore kills HIMSELF! So even if you did get to spare him, it was still going to be tragic.. Very truamatizing for a kid I'd imagine

[@selena3467]

That's actually very interesting because I have done a run like that myself a few months back. "What if I happened to fall into the Underground with no prior knowledge?" was basically what I was doing and tried to be as morally good as I reasonably could. I ended up at like LV 12 or something like that mainly by killing the bosses except for Papyrus. One thing that didn't make sense was when Undyne was talking about her going though waterfall with dust everywhere or something like that, implying that I had killed any enemies in waterfall when the only person I had killed up to that point was Toriel.