Undertale's Genocide Route - The Worst Masterpiece Ever

[@WyvrnOnYT]

Small correction. In this video, I use the word "Difficulty curve" synonymously with "difficulty spike" which are actually two slightly different concepts. Difficulty spikes being the word that should have been used.

[@awesomesavage2285]

Regarding the difficulty spike, the entire purpose of Undyne the Undying is to try to stop you from continuing your path, because well... you're committing Genocide, so that is why Undyne is hard in Genocide. Sans' fight is HAS to be complete bullshit, due to it being the final attempt to break your determination, and force you to go back, and also being due to Sans' and the game's desperation to stop you, which makes it all the more important that it is EXTREMELY hard.

[@awesomesavage2285]

Also, as much as we would all like to see Mettaton NEO as an actual boss, that would make the Genocide route complete bullshit, because you would have used at least half of your items on him, similar to what happened with Undyne the Undying, AND THEN you would have to fight a bullshitly hard boss, like maybe 5 MINUTES afterwards.

[@D_YellowMadness]

@@awesomesavage2285 And there'd be no sane way to grind because Sans would be the only character left.

[@appelofdoom8211]

I mean a difficulty spike is technically just part of the difficulty curve. Technically most boss fights in general are supposed to be mild difficulty spikes being harder than the standard levels around them. They wouldn't stand otherwise. Bad design is when the spike is to crazy or in genocides case its good bad design

[@fluffyninja3467]

Don't beat yourself up lmao. It seems most people understood what you meant, good video 🤌

[@temmssmdisnas]

The genocide route really makes you feel like you're not just fighting the entire underground, but you're fighting the game itself. You're skipping every part of what makes Undertale appealing, so of course the game will make your genocide run as boring and difficult as it can through bad game design. It's great. Fun fact: The encounter system is designed to make grinding harder, as the chance of encountering a monster is lowered the more monsters you kill.

[@inky-pj7ox]

The chance of encountering monsters as you kill isn’t because it’s making it harder, it’s because *they’re trying to run away*

[@TheFawfulExpressMustardO-cx6mw]

@inky-pj7ox This becomes even more obvious after Deltarune's Snowgrave Route. Enemies run away from you after you get the FreezeRing.

[@lpfan4491]

And the encounterrate goes WAAAAAAAAAAY up after you get the first encounter where no enemy shows up, just to annoy you.

[@TheFawfulExpressMustardO-cx6mw]

@lpfan4491 I honestly want to know the story of the first guy to discover Snowgrave. It sounds like an intriguing tale.

[@hanchen267]

Could be because you’re running out of monsters to kill It’s like hide and seek, the more you catch, the more difficult it becomes to get the next since they’re already caught

[@nicenoob12345]

Another little thing that makes the Genocide Route even more disturbing is that you somehow manage to make Flowey, a psychopath who kills people over and over again for fun, terrified of you, to the point where he literally begs for you to not kill him at the end of the route.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

Great writing

[@multiname_]

womp womp

[@TheDarkPeasant]

He gets such a rush of emotion that his last “please don’t kill me” uses Asriel’s voice.

[@jueymiah1810]

yeah its literally impossible for flowey to feel empathy, sympathy and have any attachments to anyone; he is the literal definition of a psychopath AND a sociopath, and yet he breaks down in fear

[@harley-kl2eo]

In a very specific route, Flowey underestimates your curiosity by saying 'Being nice just gets you hurt, because if you kill everyone, then you can leave without any lost connections' and then begging you not to kill them.

[@W.d_Gaster]

One thing I like about geno is, it shows the better side of some characters (namely Papyrus, Undyne, Alphys and Mettaton). Also, one of my favorite messages from it is "You are not better than Flowey".

[@temporarynickname]

where does it say that? never heard that line

[@W.d_Gaster]

​@@temporarynicknameIt never outright says that, but it's implied. Especially since Flowey's backstory and how he started killing is explored on geno (You know, killing out of boredom)

[@temporarynickname]

@@W.d_Gaster i was kinda hoping it did say it lol finding out new shit about an 8 year old game i thought i knew everything about is always cool

[@windego64]

Also Muffet she's the whole reason why we complete the genocide route in the first place

[@elijahbagaman276]

​@@windego64wdym?

[@cedarnomad]

I actually disagree with your take on the missing puzzles. They aren't removed to make the grinding more tolerable, but rather to make it the focus. It's like the game saying "You wanna grind? Well here you go, you can grind all you want! And you can ONLY grind." It's a little bit of malicious compliance that silently breaks the 4th wall and I love it.

[@Napstablooky]

It’s the same reason why the music stops being pleasant as well, it’s all intentional to make it show that this isn’t fun or engaging, you’re just a monster who has to quell your curiosity or see for yourself if you can do it regardless. I do believe Toby had to make the actual boss fights have great music because its by far the most important part of the run.

[@WyvrnOnYT]

I don't actually think the puzzles were removed just to make the grinding tolerable. The confusion is due to my inability to make that clear in the video, because I agree that the grinding is the core focus of the mode. My bad for causing the confusion. Constructive criticism is always welcome and is what helps channels improve their content over time!

[@remixgameyt1172]

Also to mention, they game actively tries to sway you from the genocide path, clearly hinting it's NOT the right path, by removing all fun parts, as well as giving you tough decisions to make, in which proceeding with your current path will hurt you emotionally, killing characters you got attached too is hard... At first. Heck, you can turn back from this path even after killing everyone killable except Asgore and Flowey. And if you still choose it, the game acts as if you know everything already, because it knows that it's not your first run.

[@sillybilly-x9g]

I personally think that its because all the monsters are trying to get away from you , theyre going through the puzzles into snowdin

[@DeltaBlazin]

I always saw it as the game taking away the fun of the puzzles from you as punishment.

[@SuperBatSpider]

I know someone who accidentally started Genocide because he enjoys level grinding. But even in his case, he realized fast the game didn’t want him to go down this path.

[@seantaggart7382]

Yeah it will let you know

[@Luigi_Main3752]

Spaceman Scotts video summarizes this best in his video....the monotonous task of looking for everyone to deal with the eventual obstacles.... And then you get to sans.

[@nintendoboy3605]

One minor thing you didnt mention in the difficulty spike section: How it helps the narrative. Because every other fight in the genocide route is easy it makes the 2 actual boss fights feel like genuine heroes. These 2 bosses are the only ones that stand a chance against you, they are the only hope of humans and monsters alike.

[@MackenziiRivers]

it's why i dont get people who think, for narrative and the game itself, that mettaton neo should have been a boss. Narritively speaking, he does stuff to put on a show, but there is no show if there's no fans to watch it. Sure not all the monsters are killed by this point but he's no 'hero', he's an egotistical monster who has some compassion sure but come on, he's no hero like undyne, papyrus or sans are.

[@EndertheDragon0922]

@@MackenziiRivers It would’ve been a good opportunity to make him into a hero. The fakeout fight was shocking and fit the route, but I feel like Mettaton kind of got shafted by the narrative a bit overall, you know? His neutral run character arc of learning to be less of an asshole is really neat but then if you get the king Mettaton neutral ending, iirc, he gets even worse than before, right? Like, he becomes a dictator and makes people who talk bad about him “disappear,” so like, what was the point of his fight where he was supposed to remember his roots and appreciate the people around him? Even that got cut short by his batteries. Granted, in endings where Alphys disappears he does show genuine concern for her, which is good. In the true pacifist route, when everyone shows up and meets each other before the Asriel fight, he only has a leg on screen and like one line despite being a pretty major character. And then, of course, in genocide, he’s the fakeout boss. I’m totally biased because I love him being a trans allegory and gender non-conforming but like man I wish we had some more Mettaton characterization, you know? I wish we got more interaction between him and Blooky and Alphys after his arc where he tries to rebuild his relationships with them.

[@greyscaleadaven]

@@EndertheDragon0922​ I actually really liked his neutral morality, similar to how Muffet operates. MTT resort planted the seeds that Mettaton was never a perfect person, especially with the way his employees talk about the place. But his motivations to me were really compelling. His goal until you fight him is to take a human soul, cross the barrier, and save humanity from monsters. This is super refreshing in terms of how most monsters feel, and makes sense considering how much he idolizes them. The lesson he learns at the end of his fight is simply that people need his presence in the underground. While that’s sentimental, it’s still disconnected from his personal life. He learns that he is needed as an entertainer, which informs his neutral ending. When put in a position of leadership, he simply does what he knows best. Distract people from pain, and make them happy. It’s sad the way it plays out, but it isn’t for a lack of sentiment. I just find his character to be far more interesting when framed in a morally grey way. Not every character has to be framed as morally good to be a complex one. That’s just my interpretation though.

[@sheogorath6834]

@@greyscaleadaven "MTT resort planted the seeds that Mettaton was never a perfect person, especially with the way his employees talk about the place." They all talk about how great Mettaton is as a boss (except Burgerpants, who stole from his job).

[@sheogorath6834]

@@MackenziiRivers Papyrus is only a hero in genocide. His goal in neutral/pacifist is the most selfish for a main character (well, except Flowey). Sans is also only a hero in genocide, he only tries to stop you because he knows that the whole world will be destroyed if he do nothing. Mettaton, on the other hand, wants to save people in all runs.

[@andysee6996]

The whole point of the Genocide run is that it's not supposed to be fun. Undertale refuses to justify your constant killings, replaces the quirky tone with a dark depressing atmosphere, every battle is either insultingly easy or teeth-grindingly frustrating, there's lots of level grinding, and the ending permanently corrupts your save file. Not only does it deconstruct various RPG tropes, it shows how heartless it really is to kill all of these characters.

[@Samahamman]

Of course, it isn't Permanent Permanent, if you turn off Steam cloud saves and then delete the file that genocide route creates, you can reverse the effects. And maybe, if you want yhe cloud saves, I think you should be able to turn it back on and it will be fixed but idk about that last bit

[@Niftyturnip-]

@@Samahamman ig but i think its about as permanent as it gets without actually giving you a virus

[@Samahamman]

@@Niftyturnip- nope. the method I just said works perfectly fine and it's basically built into steam

[@ThePr1nceOfNothing]

@@Samahamman i think he meant it as "the game corrupts the file as permanently as it can without giving you a virus"

[@Samahamman]

@@ThePr1nceOfNothing oh yeah that makes sense

[@thefarlander2050]

I feel genocide's greatness in Undertale is really a testament to how great the characters are written as a whole. Would you feel just as bad killing Toriel if she was just a standard first-boss in an RPG? Would you feel bad beheading Papyrus if he was just another generic skeleton enemy? Genocide's so great as a route because all the enemies you kill in the game are people too. People with their aspirations, goals, views on you and others, as if they were people you'd meet in your own life. So the act of killing them, brutally easy in most cases, is heart-wrenching and villainous in the game's world. You're murdering people, not just enemies. It's also because of how written the characters are that makes the only two outliers in the route, Undyne the Undying and Sans, incredible boss battles. They are fighting to stop you while everyone else fought to defend themselves from you. Undyne becomes the true hero in the story, protecting her world and the friends she lost and risks losing from the impossible threat that is you. Sans fights to have you give up and restore the world back to how it was before your slaughtering, because he knows that after you pass him there truly is no going back. This mindset may even be the reason why many view Undertale's gameplay progression as neutral, pacifist, then genocide. It'd be more impactful narratively if you kill everyone after getting to know them as people in previous routes. It'd be more saddening for you to kill Undyne after you find out who Alphys is in other routes where we actually see her, for instance. People don't give modern Undertale story analysis videos much credit these days in my opinion. Yours was really good and I hope to see more!

[@narrativeless404]

Yeah You will not even feel the same killing EldenRing bosses

[@thefarlander2050]

@@narrativeless404 Exactly! Those bosses are made to be killed. They aren't likeable in the sense you'd want to befriend them and spare their lives. While I don't much about Elden Ring's lore, I do know the bosses in the game are evil/out to get you. You're meant to fight back and defeat them to get to the game's ending.

[@8-bit400]

Honestly Undertale has one of the most memorable characters in my opinion, which indicates how well the characters were written.

[@LukeMarcello]

And who is that

[@gamercentral2417]

@@LukeMarcellothe entirety of the main cast Also vulkin

[@asrieldreemurr8059]

@@LukeMarcello The entirety of the cast plus every single encounter and NPC

[@narrativeless404]

In Fandom it's mostly just Sans But in general it's probably at least all of the secondary characters, if not all of the side characters as well

[@MoRiSeR_]

My favorite route is the neutral route. But my favorite moment was the cutscene to Undyne The Undying.

[@multiname_]

my favourite moment was when flowey in the pacifist route said enough and consumed everyones soul yum yum

[@galp0]

@@multiname_ yummy

[@narrativeless404]

That cutscene was indeed special And the one where she melts shouting *"I WON'T DIE"* was just sad And narrator Chara kinda agrees too

[@potatopotato3284]

Whenever I see someone talk about the genocide run, they normally gloss over the Undyne the Undying fight to talk about how hard the Sans fight is, so this video was a pleasant surprise. Undyne's fight (and her character) is probably my favourite thing to come out of a video game, so it's nice to see it get some well deserved appreciation. Great video

[@BenHowe901]

A small correction: a difficulty curve is the overall charting of how a game's difficulty changes over the course of the experience. What you called a difficulty curve (a sudden increase in difficulty) is a difficulty spike, and they're not always unfair or bad game design (see: Monster Hunter).

[@nitzan3782]

I think the difficulty spikes are also intentional from a narrative POV: The player is an unstoppable force of evil, with two notable exceptions: Undyne, who's a massive threat in Pacifist and Neutral both, and in Genocide she buys everyone else time to escape, and Sans, who gives you a pep talk in Pacifist and 0XP Neutral, chides you in low-XP Neutral and mocks you in high-XP Neutral. It shows that no matter how powerful you are, people will always make a last stand, and they will always make your life hell for being a piece of shit, even if they know it's futile.

[@pointyorb]

I had to look up what chide means

[@stephaniethebatter7975]

The absolutely horrendous grind in Genocide is also very fitting lore-wise. As you kill more and more monsters, the monsters in the area become aware of what you are doing and flee. It gets especially bad in Hotland because not only is just about the entire Underground aware of you going around killing everyone, but Alphys is evacuating everyone to the True Lab, something that has only been ramped up by Undyne's death. So when you reach Hotland, there are far less monsters hanging around in the open, meaning you encounter them less frequently.

[@aniketr341]

Tbh delta rune chapter 2 does the whole fleeing enemy stuff better since it literally shows them running away from you.

[@fansee1368]

​@@aniketr341With the way it's going, Deltarune's Snowgrave has potential to be even better than the geno route Manipulating your friends into doing the dirty laundry for you is a LOT more grim than just killing everyone, can't wait to see what happens in the next chapters

[@aniketr341]

@@fansee1368 Yeah same. I also thought the geno route was a bit edgy at times, so i look forward to see a what a weird/geno route would look like in deltarune

[@SpeedyCheetahCub]

It's very fitting. There are a limited number of monsters in an area, so if there are few monsters then it would be harder to find one. Because you aren't looking for a specific monster, rather any monster that is there, the chance you would find a monster in any given space would be the the number of monsters in the area divided by the number of spaces a monster could be. When the number of monsters goes down, the chance of finding one in any given space would also go down. Therefore, it makes logical sense that the more monsters you kill, the harder it is to get an encounter.

[@themissionslayer]

I think enemy grinding, but skipping the puzzles is a fair trade-off. Especially if you've already completed the game once before. Great video as always man, I look forward to the next one.

[@td3pa837]

The point of the genocide is to punish players for their actions that are sick and twisted, not for the amusement of the players, for example: sans is usually a chill and friendly guy who you wanna be friends with, but in genocide you see him as a really hard obstacle to pass through so I believe that because players did the genocide route for a challenge and good fights Toby made jevil and spamton neo accessible in every route of the game.

[@td3pa837]

So you know, you can play bad time simulator or the 4 quadrillion undertale sans fangames

[@subpar_username4756]

@@td3pa837Any idea if there’s something like Bad Time Simulator for Undyne the Undying? I’ve tried looking and didn’t find anything. Undyne was my favorite boss to face, but I don’t really want to kill everyone (or anyone, for that matter) to reach the fight.

[@td3pa837]

@@subpar_username4756 we can only dream

[@syenous2454]

@@subpar_username4756 ngahhh simulator?

[@Rerizga404]

Just downoald a save file.​@@subpar_username4756

[@KazuNEET]

Somehow, every single time people have tried to make Megalovania sound bad, they've failed. It's crazy how good toby is at composing music.

[@alexandremontesinos7876]

it really doesnt sound that great

[@shadowmaster435]

nice bait @@alexandremontesinos7876

[@robyjacker]

​@@alexandremontesinos7876Even though we both might sound biased, I agree with you man. There's WAY MUCH better songs in the soundtrack than just Megalovania.

[@alexandremontesinos7876]

@@robyjacker imo every other boss song is better other than heartache because that one is kinda meh. Im sick of hearing "megalovania officially became its own music genre" because it really isn’t that good to me. Theres at least 50 video game music that i can rank higher than this one. For exemple listen to literally anything yoko shimomura has ever done, thats closer to being its own genre that megalovania alone thats for sure. Heck if you look up on google "most popular video game music composer" yoko shimomura is the third that pops up., toby fox is the 42th

[@rosykindbunny1313]

​@@alexandremontesinos7876 As a Heartache enjoyer, ouch, but understandable

[@Probably_another_Sans]

Gotta love how the existence of these mechanics all make sense. Grinding is you going out to find every single monster in the area, which, the less they are the longer it takes to find because they're both fewer and literallly hiding at that point. The difficulty spike makes sense because, just like in lore, you're a human and by default you're a lot stronger than monsters which has it take an anime transformation and breaking the 4th wall to make things harder for you. And the soundtrack is to match the relentless wave of horrible things happening in each area, making everything grim.

[@thirdwheel9938]

I'm pretty sure we're over the "you're evil if you play genocide runs" phase of the undertale fandom and it was crazy how people acted when the game first released but I guess that just shows how good Toby fox's writing is because people GENUINELY care about his characters. This is why I think undertale would be incomplete without any of these runs That being said the people who harrased others over this need to touch some grass IMMEDIATELY

[@jthecryptid]

Exactly! It's important to the overall story and a part of the experience! Otherwise Toby wouldn't have included it. It completely recontextualizes Frisk's ability to reset the timeline and Asriel's connection to Frisk/Chara. It's also the closest we get to a "true" ending because it permanently corrupts your save file and all future pacifist/neutral runs

[@benjaminthejump5484]

What? i dont remember people being mad about that

[@Rainn42]

@@benjaminthejump5484 i think they were angry about markiplier starting a genocide route without knowing

[@benjaminthejump5484]

@@Rainn42 Wow, that sounds really dumb

[@D_YellowMadness]

It's even written in a way that would normally be considered terrible writing. The player influences 2 kids who share a body into becoming evil & murdering everyone in sight. Then, one of the kids takes the other one's soul & destroys the world. No one learns anything of value & only the villains survive. Well, two of 'em anyway. It even revolves around what is usually one of the laziest premises possible. Turning the hero into a villain through mind control. But it all works because you're choosing to do it all & getting the natural results of your actions & the tone is masterfully handled. That & you actually learn cool lore in the process that just ends up making you feel worse. It all ends up pointless but that's because you chose to play the game in the most plainly pointless way possible. Most game devs who make games about choice are careful about who the player can kill because some characters are important & the game would break without them. This game instead asks "How messed up would it be if I didn't do that & the player killed everyone for no reason? What if the game did break & that was part of the experience?"

[@derpfluidvariant0916]

I kinda agree with ya here, but a friend of mine also pointed out that it also removes agency from the decision, and just kinda comes off as preachy instead. You are immediately given a solid reason to be biased towards a pacifist route. Then, unless you are spoiled on the endings, there is legitimately no reason for the player to kill a single monster after meeting Toriel. The first legitimately threatening character you meet is Undyne, and she's developed as a friend of papyrus, who you've likely befriended at that point in the game. Prior to that, it's all been decent folks with their own issues. A sane person, or a person who doesn't want to waste their time would read the slowing encounters as a sort of "hey, there's nothing past this" for the choice to attack instead of talk. It's like Melina's(I think I spelled that right?) accord in Elden Ring. You technically have a choice, but a central and key part of gameplay is removed, and in the end, you either need to break the game or come crawling back for her "optional" help. For the idea of violence not being the answer it works, but for the idea of "what if the monsters you killed were acknowledged?" It kinda falls flat. The incentives that drive people hunt monsters lose their value very quickly, as items you need to progress can just be found rather than bought, and there are like three bloodthirsty monsters in the whole game. Frisk also never goes through an uncivilized biome. They effectively walk through half a dozen towns of people, and fight or befriend people on that route. They're not the feral monsters that RPG characters attack, more non-human civilians than anything. The idea that "violence isn't the answer" also doesn't make sense, because almost all fights are closer to Frisk taking a mild inconvenience as a threat and initiating a fight. Those that aren't, are instances where violence in self defense is permitted in some form, like yellow blasts, the green shield(with the intent to goad Undyne into an area where she cannot follow), or Asgore's fight in general. I don't think that's what Toby ended up settling for, as seems to have settled more firmly into "here's why what flowery did makes sense, actually" than antithesis to the pacifist route, but it just feels kinda wonky. I think if the ideas of monsters' deaths mattering and violence not always being the answer was followed more, it would be closer to the Garry the Goblin unlock in West of Loathing, where violence is the easy and obvious answer that just kinda feels right, but with some work on the player's part peace or at least communication can be reached. Have the actions of the Monsters be realistically construed as violent or threatening acts, and encourage the player to do the easier genocide route first. This would give it a purpose beyond a place to store the edge of the game, as well as make the pacifist ending feel more rewarding.

[@falsche921]

@@derpfluidvariant0916 I do not quite agree on the "there are like three bloodthirsty monsters in the whole game" point. There is a lot of normal NPCs (like the one Froggit in Ruins who instantly acknowledges you are a human) who don't engage you. And you don't get the option to engage, either, meaning that it's not Frisk initiating combat most of the time. Shopkeepers don't get attacked either. Speaking of which, the message "*But nobody came." also implies that it's the _monsters_ coming up to you, not you seeking them out. You are getting hurt. Visibly. The game has Toriel comment on that if you get to her house with less than full HP. The only two monsters that care at all and tone down attacks/stop are Toriel herself and Papyrus, the rest keep shooting deadly projectiles at you while making silly comments. But are they just friendly but misunderstood and ignorant of lethality of their actions? Ehh... Of the five dogs before Snowdin, three (Doggo, Dogamy and Dogaressa) are 100% "EXTERMINATE ANNIHILATE" before attacking (they don't even know you are a human, they just go "weird smell/something moving -> YOU WILL NEVER MOVE AGAIN"). Undyne tries to kill you. Mad Dummy tries to kill you, so do all of its minions. Muffet too (until she learns you didn't hurt spiders, at which point _clearly_ it's _someone else_ she has to kill). _Every single encounter in the CORE_ is the mercenaries hired to kill you, topped off by Mettaton who _also_ wants to murder you for personal gain. *The actual issue I'd argue is that the game doesn't really acknowledge any of that.* Most monsters forget about any reason they had to attack the moment they get distracted, Frisk is willing to chat and go on friendly dates with those who tried to kill them 10 minutes prior, and the Pacifist ending shows that the gaggle of monsters that basically shoot on sight as a greeting somehow seamlessly integrated into human society. So it feels like monsters attacking Frisk is somehow okay and forgivable, but if you fight back, you're a terrible person (Well, attacking until the enemies give up at low HP is kind of okay at first, but then the game just goes and kicks your teeth in at Toriel. And then Flowey goes "Yeah it's YOUR fault the damage suddenly jumped up 10x for no discernable reason, you murderer!") It's also where I'd disagree with the original commenter about "getting the natural results of your actions". Flowey did Genocide too, yet the world is still there, so clearly the results aren't natural at all. What makes your basically same actions somehow more deserving of consequences than Flowey's?

[@krimptheshrimp]

​@falsche921 I disagree since you don't get punished for ANY level of a neutral route. Even if you only spare a single enemy,all consequences are lost. The only person who will hate you if you kill that many people will only kill you if you are on the path to absolution. The game only gives you the harsh punishment when you kill everything you can get your hands on. Other than that, just RESET. Besides it makes sense that people in the underground would only call you a bad person for killing as well, sense they believe they were trying to kill you for a noble cause, so that's forgivable, but you are a human walking in the their territory, and you start killing everyone in their homeland. I personally would also call you a villain.

[@falsche921]

​@@krimptheshrimp That's... mostly fair on the second part. Thinking about it again, outside of Genocide it's only like Flowey, Undyne and Sans who ever really comment on you killing anyone and none of them are unbiased sources. (Although I'll disagree on the "noble cause" - a lot of monsters don't know you're a human yet still attack you. Doggo is a good example. A lot of them attack for selfish or nonsense reasons, too) On the first part, I don't agree. The game deciding to lock you out of Pacifist because you tried to spare Toriel by getting her to low HP (sudden one-shot lol) is a consequence. You can reset, yes, but that's still a consequence (time spent). Not a fair one either, because the game has an NPC explicitly tell you sparing at low HP is an option. The "punishment" for completing the Genocide route isn't particularly fair, either - again, Flowey did Genocide too yet there wasn't a Fallen Child or the world ending for him. The game does judge the player a lot more harshly than the monsters, and it's not just in-universe.

[@D_YellowMadness]

@@falsche921 I'd agree with the Toriel part if it weren't for the fact that resetting is part of the game's narrative & the actual moral question raised in that regard is the one Sans asks you directly about whether or not someone who has a special power has a responsibility to use it for good. The way Sans talks about it sounds like he thinks the answer is "yes" but like he doesn't judge you if you disagree since you're the one actually going through it all. Until he realizes the person you killed was Toriel who he had a close bond with & probably couldn't imagine you having a good reason for killing.

[@jeremyharrison4778]

I love how the game holds off on giving flowey’s backstory until you have gone down the same path and likely have the same motivation. It kinda feels like you can’t truly empathize with flowey or understand his actions until that moment, and if it was revealed in a different route, it wouldn’t have hit as hard. This route is what puts Undertale over the edge as the best video game writing I’ve ever experienced.

[@greencomet2011]

I really like playing as the villain of the story, it really gives you a perspective on what it is to be on that role. One thing that I always liked about this route is Sans dialogue. His speech concerning about the "reason" we are opting to do this during at the last moments of his fight. "No matter what you just keep going. Not out of any desire for good or evil, but because "you can", and because "you can" you "have to". It really dissects what is like to be in the position in which you basically decided you want to treat this experience just like any other game you would play and then forget about it until years later. Consequences be damned.

[@starlesscitiess]

i think this route is a testament to the idea that nothing in art can be wrong if used intentionally and precisely. all these design choices that would usually make for a terrible game are used so well narratively that most people a) don’t care and b) come away with an experience that may or may not be fun overall but is narratively engaging and haunting anyway.

[@jordand331]

@@poleve5409I think most of the people who wouldn't enjoy the route self-select by not trying it. I have no interest in it and would probably not be able to force myself to finish the run even if I decided to try

[@Trixin_it]

Amazing video mate! I am yet to beat genocide but the sight of this video fills me with determination!

[@edcola6671]

Genocide feels like an early-2010s Internet creepypasta come to life and I love it for that.

[@threecubed3]

It ain't that creepy bruh it's maybe unsettling at most but that's on a spooky day.

[@WillM69]

​@@threecubed3 So a creepypasta

[@folksydragoon4711]

Something i remember hearing was that the Genocide route was never actually publicly mentioned when Undertale launched and it was only the fact that undertale was popular and people posted videos of people playing it This relates to the player being the villain with our own curiosity being the only reason we found this route then later on we are called out in game by chara about this before they destroy the world

[@circleas7192]

0:29 Technically, you can’t start the True Pacifist route without completing a Neutral route. If you spare everyone you run into in the game on your first run, you will still get a Neutral ending as the date with Alphys is unavailable without beating Photoshop Flowey.

[@diegozuniga4201]

I did not know that

[@ozargaman6148]

I think that you missed the best and most important aspect of the genocide route. this game puts the player itself as a character. not even like other games where there are 4th wall breaks, but you literally play as the concept of a player playing the game, which was done in the most amazing way possible. the genocide route is the part of the game where it reflects on the secret hunting side of players, and it is why it was made to be super boring and super hard. if you think about other games, sometimes finding some of the secrets can be a very tiresome and not rewarding experience, and may sometimes include extra challenges meant only for those who really want to know everything. the genocide route involves all of these different parts while being the most rewarding route because it finishes this idea of being a player, and finally makes us understand what undertale wants to tell. undertale is a masterpiece game about games and genocide brings it to completion.

[@cha0trix493]

Toby also perfects it on Deltarune where it is clear that the Player and Kris are two separate entities and they are aware of you controlling them. At the end of the last two chapters, they took away their soul which is the Player's way of controlling them to get some limited amount of freedom before putting them back to their body.

[@ozargaman6148]

@@cha0trix493 right? And the crazy thing is there are hints for that in undertale too! After a pacifist, during the dialogue with flowey when you load up the game, he says "let Frisk be happy" when begging you not to reset. The soul is the one resetting though, so the soul is the player. But maybe we're just playing as Chara controlling Frisk? Well, also no, because in genocide Chara makes a deal with us for the soul. So the soul isn't Chara, the player isn't Frisk, but the player is the soul, so that must mean we're some different entity. Idk if it was common knowledge before Deltarune btw because back in 2015 I was like 9-10 so I was pretty stupid and couldn't analyze the game as well as I do now, but it's still cool to think about. What's even cooler is that we don't play as the soul like we play as certain Characters in other games, but the soul is a representation of us in that uni/multi/whateververse of Undertale and Deltarune. It isn't controlled by us, but it IS us.

[@Pinekones.]

Undertales Genocide is like the first postal game but unlike postal, undertale genocide tries to make you feel guilty rather than disturbed like in postal.

[@mathieul4303]

9:55 but thats literally the point, the ultimate goal of this game. It’s to make you think of these characters as real and therefore act like you would in real life. You distanced yourself from that, not everyone did. No wonder some people get that emotional over it. The game even call out the cowards who couldn’t do it themselves. This game is amazing about the human psyche.

[@kylerosenthalstudent5970]

Honestly Undyne the Undying is by far one of my favorite things in media history right next to the visitor from deep space nine. It means so much to me. The battle and music are immaculate they make a battle that I had so so much fun in that it kind of was the reason I fought Sans for as long as I did. It took me 3 months to beat Sans. Yet something funny, I didn't rage once in any of these games. In fact I barley rage at all when it comes to single player video games. So basically this one secret path of the game made me be able to play any single player game as long as I could set my mind to it. Without it I might've never realized the beauty in the ridiculously hard.

[@alexandremontesinos7876]

on my first attempt in my life... i died on the very last second of the fight. second attempt... beat him using no items at all. didnt even play the game before literally just bad time simulator. How? sorry if you were joking

[@BupperGupper]

I think people don’t get that this route isn’t supposed to be fun except for the boss fights themselves, which are there to give you the determination to finish the route, I personally got to sans and after a while I decided to quit. The experience is supposed to be dreadful, like you are doing something wrong. At least that is my opinion on it.

[@eletgres519]

i love undertale sooo much!! this game RAISED ME MAN! i love how it’s much deeper than “you shouldn’t use violence to resolve conflicts” and is developed like a actual world in your computer that you have insane powers over. also i love the amount of fan work out of the community, especially with flipnote animations. how the hell did toby fox make such a conplex multi layer game is beyond me but oh my god it shows the amount of effort and love he puts into this passion project. undertale is my second favorite game of all time behind ratchet and clank ps2. if i ever have children i’d give em undertale in a millisecond.

[@SmubFinger]

I think my favorite part of genocide is if you skip the hotland grind and instead do CORE. The mercenaries actually survive multiple hits (not you madjick) and deal out pretty good damage. The line "final froggit knows why it's here" suddenly has a very heroic meaning, and if you for some reason were to act on whimsalot it "remembering it's conscious" even feels different, reinforcing that if you were to change at any point the game would forgive you. All of this without talking about how the genocide version of CORE that plays is haunting. The song is slow and drags on unlike usual where it's energetic and bouncy. In both versions it keeps a feeling of almost being there and just needing to push through your last hurdle. All of this in a skippable area in a run some people won't ever play.

[@Napstablooky]

All of the “worst” aspects of genocide run are I’m sure you know completely intentional, the music stops being pleasant, the puzzles and flavor text are all gone, everything you love about the game in the other runs are sucked out to show that you aren’t doing this for anything other than your twisted curiosity.

[@blackbloom8552]

on the topic of bad design and difficulty, i think its notable that sans battle is difficult because he blatantly abuse and circumvent the rules of the games to give himself an advantage. Many aspects of his fight, such as blindsiding the player on their first attack, attacking them in the menus, and tricking them into an insta kill would be considered cheap in a regular fight, but the nature of the genocide run puts context into those actions. This is not an honorable fight, but someone desperately trying to stop you from committing the irrepearable.

[@Lyheroes]

7:58 Hopes and dreams: " *_Nah, I'd win_* ."

[@The_One_In_Black]

If you look at The Undying as the boss following MTT -> Asgore -> Flowey -> Asriel, I don't know if the curve is so bad.

[@KwikBR]

the hardest boss goes from undyne to undyne the undying when you get to it

[@skell6134]

@@KwikBR Actually Asriel is hardest boss,he has most unforgiving attack patterns and all that and on first playthrough you only get through this because of build-in constant retry mechanic :p

[@KwikBR]

@@skell6134 I disagree, apart from the hypergoner attack, which has a 1/10 chance to even be possible to dodge, the attacks don't compare to the sans fight, and of course you get infinite heals during it, so as long as you survive 1 round you get to full health.

[@GuilhermeSouza-df8pb]

​@@KwikBRasriel bullet patterns are harder tho

[@SalmonRow]

@@GuilhermeSouza-df8pb sure, no hit is harder, but would you say toriel is hard because that's hard to no hit? All that matters i how punishing it is to be hit, which sans is by far the most. its pretty easy to atleast survive a turn against asriel but against sans, 1 mistake and you can just die.

[@flamingpaxtsc]

Something I think is worth mentioning is that the difficulty spike in Undyne and Sans isn't really AS bad as many make it out to be. Neither of the fights are nearly as hard if you have experience with other hard bullet hell games, such as Cuphead (kind of) and Hollow Knight (not really at all, but I didn't beat Sans or Undyne until after mastering Cuphead, which made my experience MUCH easier.

[@flamingpaxtsc]

Something else that’s important to mention is a lot of Undertale’s fanbase is younger and probably not as experienced at bullet hells, (really hard,) so they may exaggerate the difficulty of easy bosses as well

[@theguywhoasked2597]

Thats kinda stupid tbh you cant call a difficuty spike not as bad when you have played games similar to said difficulty spike imagine you where playing mario but then you get hit with a dark souls level boss figbt if you played dark souls before it wouldnt be that bad but if you havent........well your gonna go through hell

[@alexandremontesinos7876]

@@theguywhoasked2597dude, i got to the last spinny gaster blaster phase and died at literally the last second of the fight... that was the first attempt in my life and i never played bullet hells in my life. i was like 12 years old. sans isnt very hard...

[@theguywhoasked2597]

@@alexandremontesinos7876 i never said it was hard his point is just stupid and flawed

[@alexandremontesinos7876]

@@theguywhoasked2597 fair.

[@Max-rz8br]

I think that your description of the Genoide route being 'fighting the game' is perfect. The terrible game design in this route is basically serves as an effort to stop the player from finishing the route, and it's somehow very satisfying to try and overcome that. It's funny that Undertale would have been horrendous if the whole game was like this, but now it only elevates the overall experience.

[@BIGSHOT__1997]

Genocide is narrative wise super.Good game play wise sucks And to be a defender, it's supposed to be not fun.It's supposed to make you.We think you'll evil actions which is what makes it good and bad at the same time

[@MackenziiRivers]

The theme of determination runs rampant through this game and it shows off brilliantly in the genocide run. due to morbid curiosity youre determined to kill off all the available monsters in each area, determined to beat the 2 hardest battles in the game overall, determined to see what the ending will be like. just for what? a few pieces of dialogue and 2 boss battles? - Undertale also plays with 4th wall breaks and self awareness like that as chara themselves brings points up like that too (as well as sans to an extent) Ilove how depending on what route you play it shows off a different aspect of 'stay determined' neutral: stay determined to get a true ending pasafist: stay determined to get the better ending of the characters genocide: determined out of sheer morbid curiosity, to see how this self aware game will treat your actions after you complete its tasks

[@stonkboi552]

I mean, I agree from the point of vision of Undertale as an RPG, but atleast for some who are actually into lore, some actions in the genocide route seem more justified. Like for example, the difficulty spike in sans' fight. This is due to how he is the strongest enemy standing in the underground and how you killed his brother and all of his friends. Same applies to Undyne, she is the warrior destined to protect all of the underground, she cannot let you pass that easily. This is all from my point of vision of Undertale more like a story game in some way.

[@4rtistPeter]

About the difficulty curves in genocide run: It extends the "Monster killer" to the level Of nobody can stop You. Those 2 bosses make the run interesting like "Finally something worth fighting =)" And the sudden difficulty IS necessary

[@shingshongshamalama]

The Genocide route isn't taking notes from a book titled "What Not To Put In Your Videogame." Genocide *IS* that book. It is a master class in how to exploit intentionally bad game design and why you probably shouldn't.

[@nerd8502]

I think that Genocide is so good even with those mistakes precisely because they *aren't* mistakes. Other games include these features on accident or without thinking. But Undertale chose those specific mechanics to convey a specific message and mental state, and it succeeded. It's like watching a movie and noticing a continuity mistake, only for it to be explained later, and realizing that it was no mistake, it was put there on purpose.

[@drlarrymitchell]

Imagine making a painting with awful colors, and STILL making a work of art. that describes this route quite well

[@brutusmagnuson315]

I always found it weird that Fox didn’t like the term “genocide route” given that’s… pretty accurate to what you’re doing

[@Adamatronamus]

The only thing unsatisfying about genocide route is you can't get that obnoxious turtle.

[@rajithakoganti6555]

Guess I’ve been living under a rock this whole time 😅

[@eikosi-ena]

I'm glad you brought up the Undyne fight. I played through a lot of the genocide route as a kid, and while the Sans fight was cool, I have way more attachment with the Undyne one. I have a vivid memory of my friends and I all sitting in a laundry room during a New Year's Eve party passing the laptop around and taking turns trying to beat Undyne. She really did feel like a hero making a last stand against us! It's a fond memory of mine. I think the Genocide route is the "worst" one from a technical standpoint, but I also think it's the most impactful to the player.

[@Z3r0_g]

I will admit that I have definitely dissuaded some of my friends from playing this route before, not because of an unhealthy attachment to the characters or thinking that playing the route makes you evil, but because of the save file corruption. 😹 That aside, I have never outright harassed anyone or actively tried to stop them from playing the route. If a person is fully committed to playing and truly doesn’t mind having a corrupted save file, then that’s amazing and I hope they have as much fun as you did.

[@Oceane1803]

I think the Reset mechanic also helps this. Because you can reset whenever you want. If you have enough of the grinding, of the difficulty, or if you feel bad, you can stop at anytime. You're not forced to keep going. You can change things for the better, meaning there's still hope. Unlikely comparison I suppose, but it seems that Pokémon didn't undestand that with the Scarlet and Violet DLC (I'm gonna spoil it here) Kieran is an incredible character, but you're forced to lie to him by the game, and then blamed for it. You feel bad for him, but there's no other choice. You can't go back and make the choice of telling him the truth (or to just tell him the truth initially). Kieran's character and story are incredible, but seeing him follow that dark path and be blamed for it by the game even though it forced you to make that "decision", that's not good game design. That's not fun. But Undertale lets you stop the Genocide run at anytime. Could you imagine if the Genocide route was the only Route available in Undertale ? Well that's basically what Pokémon did with that DLC. It's not as bad since there's no murder and there's still a good ending, but the fact that you're forced to take that path sucks. And then the game makes sure you feel bad about it. As if it was your choice. It would be understandable if it was our choice, but it isn't.

[@aarohalme1020]

The reason I kinda disliked Megalovania is that it was put on LITERALLY every Undertale video early on, which massively dragged down it's quality for me. I do like it more now, though I probably prefer Finale, Battle against a true hero and hopes & dreams more.

[@MoloIongo]

Genocide glazers not realising that the True Pacifist Route is by far the best is so funny. There is no comparison. Genocide music SUCKS. Literally the one decent genocide-only track is Megalovania and saying that it is the best Undertale song is criminal.

[@alt4388]

I think the reason the difficulty curve works is that you as the player have likely already beat the main game by the time you do genocide route, youve seen this games hardest pacifist/neutral challenges

[@alimoneh2852]

Tbh the reason Megalovania became popular is becouse of the fight, it was built up for so long and it paid off the song is amazing I wouldn't say the best cuz Finale and Undertale exists but i would be lying if i said that Megalovania is bad

[@saxor96]

Yep, everything in the genocide route is specifically designed to make it boring and frustrating, to make the player give up and go for the happy ending. Up to the final punishment of blocking any happy ending from the game afterwards if you manage to complete it.

[@fer7116]

You know I find interesting how you say that one of the appeals of the genocide route is how you feel like you discovered it through your own curiosity, because it does feel exactly like that. It's just as Sans says during his battle, the player isn't doing the route from a desire of good or evil, but from curiosity. 'You are doing this because you can, and because you can, you must' The player is driven by curiosity to finish the route, even if it means doing boring stuff like grinding. You have gone from doing good in the pacifist route to killing just for the sake of curiosity, exactly as Flowey did. At the end of genocide, the player has become like Flowey, and that realisation only comes when Flowey outright tells us his story and ends up afraid of us

[@sassyviking6003]

TL:DR: the gameplay of undertale was always it's weakest element and this is highlighted with the genocide route. But likewise the story and rich characters make that less stellar gameplay feel right and work, and again this is highlighted even more starkly in the genocide route.

[@Sunny_Haven]

I wouldn't exactly call the Genocide Route the "most fun". It's the route I've replayed the most and I do find Undyne the Undying and Sans very fun, but everything else is such a slog. Despite that, again, Genocide is the route I've played the most. "Enticing" might be a more accurate word, I'm not sure. Not fun but something about it kept pulling me back for the longest time. I do wish you focused more on the story elements. That is what really sets this game apart and is what elevates the poor gameplay mechanics and turns them into something meaningful, because on their own, I don't think the poor gameplay mechanics are somehow "fun". I think a better term is "fascinating", because I kept going back to the Genocide route over and over again, despite the slog it is (minus the new boss fights). It's something I have never seen in any game before or since, where the game gives you such a wonderful world full of great, charming characters and lets you tear it all down. The amount of times the game calls you out and shatters the 4th wall in this route also elevates it - and its poor gameplay elements - above the other routes. Wish you focused on that stuff too. TL;DR: I agree with you that the Genocide Route is full of poor gameplay elements and is amazing regardless, but I think you're missing the bigger picture by solely focusing on the gameplay elements.

[@8083music]

Battle against a true hero is underrated for real

[@gangsterspongebob6020]

The game's throwing everything it has to try and stop you from the genocide route, that's what's make it apealing, It's basically the game telling you: "Oh you want to kill every monster in the underground? Do it then, Let's strip you of any fun because you don't need it, you just want to kill everyone right?" So the game throws everything it has on you, Solved Puzzles, Emotional Scenes, Long and Grindy places, making each encounter increase the step count, hit you with hard bosses, Each Area tests you in a specific way to get you to finally quit Ruins: Tests your Knowing of the game, your curiosity 'What if I killed everyone?' Snowdin: Tests your Emotional Capabilities, like papyruses desperate attempts to steer you to a good route Waterfall: Tests your Morals (The option to 'Kill' Monsterkid) Hotland/Core: Tests your patience, how far your willing to go in order to fulfill your goal in killing everyone Do you see what I'm getting at? The game is Actively against you, wanting to steer you off, The game's goal is you to finally QUIT by throwing mechanics at you 1. Hard Boss fights 2. Long and Painful Grind 3. Denial of Any Fun Minigames/Puzzles If you quit during a genocide run, the game did It's job.

[@V01D_K1NG]

8:18 Koji Kondo: Do I detect a challenge?

[@qwerty3793]

It is very clear that the game discourages the player from doing the genocide route, but the way it goes about it is flawed. Locking two unique and challenging boss fights behind this route basically ensured that people would play it, no matter how dark or tedious the rest of the route is. Players vary wildly in their enjoyment of video game stories, but almost all players want cool and unique gameplay to explore. This route addresses both and tries to punish the player with both a dark, guilt-tripping story and tedious gameplay, but it also rewards them with new dialogue/lore and these bonus bosses. Sans is meant to be deliberately unfair, but sometimes whole games are brutally unfair and succeed because people want a challenge. And a dark, dramatic story won't bother some players, others will stick it out for the bosses and still others want to see the new story. I agree that the genocide route is a failure as a punishment for players, and it is an interesting and worthwhile experience to play through.

[@DavidXNewton]

This is very insightful :) In my hundreds of reviews of Doom maps I’ve always said that the most exciting secrets are those where you get to somewhere it feels you’re not supposed to be - and Genocide is the mother of all of those secrets. You have to fight your way through it as the game resists, grinding through the monotonous battles and changing the game around you, making everything feel wrong. You need… well, determination, to see it through and to play it the way it wasn’t supposed to be played - feeing guilty for destroying the game’s world as you knew it, spurred on by your own curiosity. It’s such a great, terrible experience.

[@Ezel_142]

I've had a discussion about it at some point, and why a lot of people dislike it, and I totally get it - the grinding isn't fun, the atmosphere is unsettling and disturbing, everything is easy and empty, until you reach two bosses which are the most difficult parts of the entire game. That sounds like the game wouldn't be fun at all, right? Yes, but on the other hand, I feel like it's a great idea from an artistic standpoint and I appreciate Toby Fox for taking risk with it. Genocide isn't supposed to be fun, it's meant to be a chore, and it's supposed to be an act of pure desperation to reach the end. It fits perfectly within the narrative, and Undertale is all about that. Of course I'm not gonna say that the execution is perfect, but IMO there's lots of things to appreciate about it. This route is very much not for everyone, but I personally think that the purposefully bad game design is what gives the route more impact.

[@Karifean]

From my pov the monster grinding is not pointless but rather serves an important purpose in building tension. Every time you do monster grinding, you do so in anticipation of what you'll experience next. Be it the sudden one-shot of Toriel, the completely deserted town of Snowdin where you can just steal money from the shop, Papyrus pleading to you, there's really no shortage of chilling things and unique experiences Genocide puts in as payoffs, and of course the boss fights cap things off wonderfully. The grinding itself is not "fun" in that sense, but it is always a setup that is paid off. Genocide would've been paced way too fast without it and not gotten the same feeling of digging yourself deeper and deeper in because you just need to see what else happens next.

[@TodosLocosOfficial]

Honestly, that's my problem with people criticizing the genocide run for being boring, or for punishing you for playing a part of the game the developer purposefully included. First of all, it's hidden away. The only way you could even discover it in a vacuum is through your own curiosity. Secondly, just because the developer added something to a game doesn't mean they want you to see it. It feels like someone jumping into the same pit in Mario over and over and wondering why the game is pushing them for doing something the game clearly allows. And lastly, the route being boring and grindy and the intense difficulty spikes are the point. It's not supposed to be fun, because that would have ruined that point. It's the game trying to get you to STOP. It's making it clear that the only reason you're pushing forward is because you feel like you have to know what happens. Sans literally breaking the established rules of the game to create a genuinely unfair boss fight is probably the most blatant example of that.

[@smonr9759]

imo, the genocide route has bad game mechanics because that’s the point. Undertale’s entire narrative is the genuine friendships and connections the player has with the characters and elements of the story, and if the player were to act the complete opposite- the game punishes you by making the geno experience grueling and boring. It’s the game’s attempt to make you end the route bc that’s not how the game is initially supposed to be played, it makes the player grind kills for hours, and having the boss fights either almost impossibly hard or unsatisfyingly easy, in an attempt to have the player quit out of frustration. But what makes genocide so well written is that it highlights why the player is so unique and dangerous to the game, compared to everything else. In playing genocide it highlights the one aspect that only the player possesses: determination. The only reason someone could get through all the bad mechanics of genocide that would usually make them drop the game in any other scenario, is because they’re fueled by the morbid curiosity of seeing what happens at the end. And that direction is so genius to implement in a game like Undertale.

[@error.exehasceasedfunction]

The only problem I have with this video is that you are basically saying "it's bad game design - if you don't look at the artistic side of it" even though the artistic side is a major part of game design Other than that, great summary of what makes genocide so impactful

[@OmniversalInsect]

Genocide is for sure my least favourite way to play the game, but it's one of Undertale's most interesting features. Even if you never play it, you know that you *could* one day make all these evil choices. It really nails in how your decisions have lasting consequences. The bad game design of genocide would be a problem if it were a stand-alone game, but it's not. You choose to play it over neutral or pacifist, so you can't complain when the game punishes you for it.

[@Splatfan92]

0:30 Note: after beating genocide, your save file gets cursed, meaning you can't truely do the pacifist run again.

[@TheFawfulExpressMustardO-cx6mw]

Or you know, you could just delete file0 and file9.

[@jeremychicken3339]

@@TheFawfulExpressMustardO-cx6mw Chara: "Since when were you the one on control?" Player: "ever since I bought the game!"

[@vinnyandlin8510]

So I guess nobody knows that you can hold up and down at a wall and the walking animation still plays and lets you encounter the enemy without having to actually walk around

[@noobly_nuggets6186]

the great thing about the design for sans's fight is how he shows just about as much mercy to you as you did to everyone else.

[@calebchang4089]

Honestly, the Genocide route was a masterpiece and this video did a great job highlighting what I loved about it. I never ended up finishing the route and stopped before the Sans fight, partially due to the difficulty and because I had just finished a True Pacifist right before. It's crazy how unsettling it is.

[@TheDavianSea]

You are underrating Hollow Knight, since I have played both games before, and in my personal opinion I enjoyed bosses like ABS Rad, Pure Vessel and NKG more than any Undertale boss. But an other thing is, the difficulty spike in Undertale genocide is actually not that big of a spike, since the player has most likely played pacifist and neutral before.

[@ZekeTheThunderWolf]

"You can do it in any order you please." No. You are forced into a neutral ending to unlock the good ending where Flowey tells you to go to the lab after a reload where before you could not do that even if you befriended Undyne. because Undyne does mot give you the letter until you at least complete neutral once.

[@arkivist1365]

Since this is a vaguely recent video on Undertale that blew up, I’d like to bring up a few points: I recently encouraged my friend who’s an aspiring game designer to play Undertale for the first time - somehow he avoided spoilers for all these years… Anyway, I watched his playthrough and it was clear that he wasn’t getting much out of it. I think his reasoning was that it felt like “a story with gameplay attached”, which becomes even more relevant when everyone knows that reading a bunch of text boxes with dialogue during a battle is the “right” decision to make. Even the game’s puzzles are symbolic parodies of what they would normally be, and they’re given comedic value by, you guessed it, more text. Because of this, my friend saw Undertale as very much lacking in what he would call “gameplay” - like VNs, much more akin to traditional narrative fiction than the way a story would be integrated into a gameplay-driven game. Seeing things from this perspective, it was hard for him to view Undertale as a “masterpiece” like so many other people have when it was missing features that any good *game* developer would consider: alternate keybinds, a way of adjusting volume, a settings menu that didn’t only have one option and could be accessed without having to quit the game first… y’know, simple stuff. Gameplay really isn’t one of Undertale’s fortes. If you consider the Toriel fight, for instance, it’s incredibly unintuitive and I don’t know if I would’ve known how to spare her without looking things up. Sorry for the slightly unrelated rant, but I know my friend won’t write about this anywhere, so I will, since I’ve engaged with the Undertale fandom for a while and this experience is really causing me to reevaluate a game I played 7 whole years ago… But tl;dr: if you love platformers and have never played an rpg or been interested in VNs before playing Undertale, Genocide might not feel any less intuitive than the rest of the game. In fact, if the gameplay doesn’t complement the story to help you engage more with the characters, you may well enjoy the prospect of a few more battles at the very least…

[@WyvrnOnYT]

Great point. Admittedly, I went through that exact experience, with not knowing how to spare Toriel that is. The game is definitely not for everybody, but that's what makes the videogame industry so great. There's videogames designed and catered for a certain audience.

[@Hengoose]

Mettaton NEO was meant to have a bossfight, but Toby didnt want to have them so close inbetween, with undyne that being recent and sans coming in a few minutes, would probably be the strongest boss tho (excluding asgore)

[@laytonjr6601]

If Toby Fox didn't want people to play genocide he wouldn't have put amazing boss fights with some of the best music in the game on it

[@shadowreaperbg7759]

I feel too horrible when i do a genocide, that is until i start figuring sans and from filling like bad person i start filling like bad gamer

[@windy6587]

i love how generic and presently hated RPG tropes are put in the genocide route in order to show how painful and time wasting it is and at the same time to prevent the human from actually killing innocent monsters what i love about it is that genocide route is NOT meant to be played or even enjoyed. It's a route toby included so that you can suffer for your own options. Well in terms of grinders or tryhards or speedrunners who actually like to make achievements for the sake of losing precious things like dialogue and characters, these people get to play genocide and even then they probably WILL get tired of it or feel an ounce of sadness from it genocide also encourages you to at least fix things and go do true pacifist once more. It instills a fear in you to not kill people thanks to chara and sans, and it also instills a fear in people who never touched genocide because they know how incredibly infamous sans is i think the whole point of genocide route is the same thing as a spine chilling horror movie. you're warned beforehand but if you love to suffer, you go ahead. and if you suffer you probably won't do it over again. the idea of including this boring, hard and even traumatizing route actually improves the overall game

[@Karifean]

People overstate the 'not meant to be played or enjoyed' thing. If it wasn't meant to be played, you know what Toby would've done? Not created it at all. Make an EXP cap, make enemies respawn forever, make the bosses be the exact same as normal, and boom that's how you actually get players to not play that way, plain and simple. He also would not have made two really interesting and memorable boss fights and some of the best music in the game things you can ONLY find in this route. Obviously it's made *to be experienced*. He put a lot of effort and work into making it an experience you won't forget. The atmosphere is chilling, the bosses are fun and a wonderful payoff to the tension built by the lengthy grinding, the music is great. It's an absolutely enjoyable route, and that's not an accident.

[@genericyoutubecommenter589]

i think it was meant to be played, but it definitely wasn't meant to be enjoyed

[@windy6587]

@@genericyoutubecommenter589 I don't mean like you're not supposed to play through it I mean like as frisk the human you're not supposed to attempt it as a morally good thing to do

[@WiFiDown37811]

I fail to understand the whole argument of the genocide route being bad game design but still enjoyable. The genocide route is intended to not be fun as a means to stop you from doing it. You're either spending several minutes if not over an hour playing walking simulator until you find some helpless creature to kill without even blinking or going through restart after 100th restart because you decided to fuck around with Undyne and Sans and you found out. Everything "bad" about the genocide route is intentional to make the game as unpleasant and unfun as possible in any and every attempt to get you to stop. When you refuse, it encapsulates how truly evil you are for sticking to your guns for so long. You don't get any reward for killing everyone in the Underground. You don't get back pats or anything. You are literally given nothing but emptiness by the end of the game but you still persisted and slaughtered countless innocent people for the hell of it. The difficulty curve wasn't a result of bad game design. Undyne and Sans were literally the only ones capable of stopping you and they were frustrating to no end _by design_ in an attempt to make you so frustrated that you give up. The genocide route was never intended to be fun or lackadaisical, and the game makes sure you know that as soon as possible

[@GrapplingHookJones]

My take is that the game isn't trying to get you to stop, but rather it puts a spotlight on the player themself and says, "these are your actions. Despite everything you are choosing to do this and you will suffer the consequences."

[@WiFiDown37811]

@@GrapplingHookJones that's a fair take to have and I see why you think that

[@rechi-hr4wc]

Yes, the genocide route is creepy, but the creepiest moment of the game is paradoxically in the pacifist route. Frankly, the genocide route seems like kindergarten compared to the laboratory. Honorable mention to Omega Flowey (But hey, he's more of a creepy pasta fan game than really scary

[@Bruhbruh-on3ms]

I think the puzzles missing plays on how we find ‘nothing’ scary or Erie. It’s like seeing a once popular place have nobody in it.

[@Agefonduge]

Sans litterally destroyed me. It took me something like 30 tries to beat him (I didn't know anything about the fight) in the span of 2-3 days. Honestly, the more I survived against him, the more scared I was. Not of what was about to come, but because I didn't want the fight to end. I was getting crushed, but it was really enjoyable, I loved it

[@astralbirthvoid0]

That was a very good video but you could say that you're very subjectif here, about the fact that it's the best, has the best bosses and that genocide musics are the best. I love Megalovania, without it I probably would know Undetale later than I do, but it is not to the level of Undertale or ASGORE, and I'm just saying my personals favorites becaue I could also talk about Death by glamour, Spider dance, Finale, Hopes and dreams... Same fro the bosses, Sans is absolutly incredible, but he's THAT incredible because he's hard as hell and so we all have big memories of it, Asgore, Asriel, Photoshop Flowey or even Metatton can be considered better. And you didn't even talk about THE good thing of genocide, the character sides, it shows their best traits more than ever. Undyne is no more too stubborn and pretty unlikable at first, she's a true hero (ba dum tss) this time. Papyrus isn't just narcissic but extremly empathic, more than anyone, he's even the strongest character on a psychological point of view, even when you kill him he still believes in you, I'm almost 100% sure that he's the one who made the most of people quit genocide after Sans. Toriel is... still overprotective, but at least isn't disillusioned at the very end. Metatton doesn't only care about himself and his dreams but about his fans, about people other than Napstablook, try to be a hero, and sacrifice himself knowing very well he has no shot against you, he just wants to gain time. Alphys doesn't try to be someone she isn't, she guides others to evacuation fighting her past (there's surely people that she lied to with the amalgamates, Snowdrake father already confirmed) and shyness. Even Flowey, and only Flowey, not Asriel, he realizes (too late) that kill or be killed isn't a perfect phlosophy. You could also have talked of why it is so hard. Simply because the game doesn't want you to do this, it wants you to feel bad about this, it wants you to realize you're the worst, even worse than Flowey. You killed every monsters for the sake of a game, and why? because of funny skeleton go "DU DU DU DUUU!" ? It is hard emotionnaly at first to make you quit by making you feel bad and after knowing you won't feel any remorses it will make you quit by beating you. So overall, your video was a good idea, but you clearly forgot important things and could try to be a minimum objectif.

[@_Ecliptic]

Ikr, sans and undyne are my favorite hallow night bosses 6:19

[@flamingpaxtsc]

I think that Genocide is a good route, I just wish it added more unique bosses. The gameplay is so boring outside of the actual changes to the world and the additional bosses.

[@BeingOfEvil0]

WHY WOULD IT BE FUN? The whole meaning of the genocide route is to be BAD making you feel guilty for you actions against monsterkind.

[@flamingpaxtsc]

@@BeingOfEvil0 And that’s a good point, but if you’ve already played through Undertale and you don’t have a harder simple-bullet-hell to play, there’s not much in between 2 really hard bosses and everything else (easy). There needs to be less of a spike with challenging encounters that aren’t super difficult

[@flamingpaxtsc]

@@BeingOfEvil0 It would be fun because video games are supposed to be fun. Grinding enemies is not fun.

[@genericyoutubecommenter589]

my brother in christ you just watched a 10 minute video breaking down how the genocide route is literally intentionally designed to be unfun

[@flamingpaxtsc]

@@genericyoutubecommenter589 Yeah, I did. And? I still wish it was more fun.

[@Monochr_ome]

funfact:In undertale the player always has the first Move. Except when fighting Sans kinda implying that you are Also just a monster at this point.

[@earthchan3358]

I like how in hotland and core areas the genocide music sounds noticeably more exhausted compared to the earlier music, as if the game itself has ran out of hope.

[@YarbuFlarbu]

"If you've ever hunted for a shiny you've basically played Undertale's genocide" I wonder what sandwich Frisk had to eat

[@MistyWatersss]

the game tries to discourage me from doing genocide by making me kill like 100 things, but I'm literally doing genocide I want to kill things for hours on end

[@xSkysilver]

Everything in the genocide route is tailored to make you NOT play it, to quit and reset and never return. You quit in two ways: spare papyrus or toriel or reset from undyne and sans being so damn hard if you did then the route completed it's job.... If not, well you know what happens next

[@caiodosmemes]

Genocide has a lazy design but I think its really cool because it really gives horror to the game

[@Camisthenics]

The average genocide experience: 5%walking 10%grinding 30%undyne the undying 55%sans

[@jaydynjasper3350]

7:14 blud forgot hopes and dreams

[@danilotairovski1974]

But the earth refused is super underrated it's so close to megalovania like it's just is s tier song

[@asrieldreemurr8059]

Undertale is such a good game that Toby literally turned anything garbage into a pure masterpiece I would like to say that every song in Undertale is a flat out masterpiece I’d also like to say, you can play Undertale anyway you want, it’s basically made for that, yes there’s 2 routes, technically 3, but I see most people do the pacifist route first, making them get more attached to the characters, that’s why most people I see don’t ever wanna do genocide or hate doing it when they start it, but inevitably continue the route to see it happen

[@Unresolvedissues101]

​@@poleve5409lore