Is Western Christianity really Orthodox?

[@lifelongcatechumen]

Thanks for this video, Father. Like you, my heritage is all Western. I have no known links at all to the east. Since I became Orthodox, I have loved learning about saints from places like Greece and Russia and while I have grown very fond of them, I'm not Greek or Russian and never will be. All of my ancestry that I know of is Scottish and Irish so learning about the Church from the 1st millennium and about saints who lived and walked in places I know well has been a great blessing.

[@eldermillennial8330]

It’s a “dirty” secret from the Papist point of view, but Ireland’s bishops actually resisted the Gregorian reforms for at least 100 years after 1054 until they finally began to cave under tremendous pressure from the Norman oppressors, including naval blockades against Irish trade with mainland Europe. Technically, Ireland remained Orthodox at least to around 1150+ or so. (They were never out of communion with Rome, but like The Much more militarily secure Archdiocese of Ulricht in the Netherlands, they sought a “respectful third path in neutral disagreement” with Rome, and potential negotiated compromises, but the Irish Earls simply didn’t have the power to defend their sovereignty the way the Dutch Kings could. It’s hard to pinpoint when the Dutch ceased to be Orthodox, as their compromises with Rome were much more subtle and slow, and never complete.) Those who suffered for Orthodoxy during this gray period should be better identified, perhaps celebrated as Saints.

[@Deborah_de_Peppy]

Facinating, very much appreciate the work you are doing. Before finding this chanel I have been researching what was the early expression of Christianity in Wales, and what you are saying here to confirms the findings. I so wish we had more Orthadox Churches here especially in West Wales, 🙏

[@herrvonsiemens]

Thank you for this comment. Are you aware of Fr Timothy, who is based in Lampeter? I believe he also runs a couple of missions in other villages in West Wales.

[@Funkydesu]

Thank you for this presentation. The Celtic church was characterised by holy leaders who, like the Desert Fathers of Egypt, would locate in isolated places for prayer and then travel to settlements to preach. Centres of mission, such as Iona of Columba were already established before Pope Gregory approved Augustine's mission to the 'Angles'. Bede was far more favourable of the Irish tradition than that of the Britons, as the gaels reached out to convert the pagan Angles & Saxons whilst the British church appeared not to (though to be fair, the Anglo-Saxons had been taking British land and were advancing westward).

[@Chrisc-sn6uh]

Glory be to God! Since i have been researching the great saints of the British isles. I have been drawn so much closer to my faith, being able to visit the great holy sites of these islands. And venerate the relics of our great orthodox saints. Really brings it all home! Our orthodox faith isn’t just of the east, but is very much of the entire world. Christ is risen! Many years to you father! Thank you for these videos they are truly been a blessing.

[@orthodoxexchange]

Thank you for these kind comments!

[@fathercyprian]

I love the message of this video, Father, and I unite myself entirely to its sentiment. However, I would go further and say that it benefits us little to claim these saints of the west as our own when we declare their path of salvation to be unworthy of merit. The liturgies by which they worshipped God; the prayers they composed, the hymns they sang, the chants by which they chanted the psalms and entered into communion with the Divine; the rites by which they encountered God in the Holy Mysteries - these are the means whereby they worked out their salvation, shed their tears of repentance, stained the soil of these islands by their blood of martyrdom. Until the majority of hierarchs of the Orthodox Church in these islands stop denigrating the ancient Orthodoxy of the West, there is little point putting a few western saints' icons in the windowsills of a building that will host a Turkish liturgy (if you'll forgive the anachronism employed for effect). For the sake of mission, for the sake of our salvation and that of those exploring faith, let us say to the peoples of the West: "This your heritage, your history, and your culture is worthy of salvation, has been hallowed by the saints before us, and is redeemed, and celebrated today as a means whereby you too can find a home in the Church of Jesus Christ." Until we can do this, without hesitation or embarrassment, our efforts will be hindered by our own short-sightedness. May God have mercy.

[@floridaman318]

THANK YOU!!! Finally an Orthodox that gets it.

[@KnoxEmDown]

As I understand Antioch has recently blessed the Western Rite to begin under it in the British Isles. The first celebration was on March 12th 2024 at St Dunstan's parish in Poole, which was the feast day of St. Gregory the Great interestingly enough, no doubt deliberately. Father Chrysostom MacDonnell presided. It's been a few months since that news broke, maybe you could get into contact with Fr. Chrysostom and see how it's going, eh Fr. Cyprian? Some nerds may want to go even further than the liturgy of St. Gregory to pre-gregorian celtic liturgies I'm sure; Who knows how that will pan out. Anyway, this seems like a great step forward on the part of the Antiochian Orthodox.

[@fathercyprian]

@@KnoxEmDown Thank you for this. I'm familiar with the situation. I'm in close contact with Fr Gregory Hallam, who was the other prime mover, along with Fr Chrysostom, in approaching Metropolitan Silouan about giving his blessing for a Western expression of Orthodoxy. This blessing is not a sign of abundant support, and comes with a number of restrictions and a noted absence of the sort of infrastructure that would demonstrate a strong commitment. It seems a "wait and see" approach is being taken, which is understandable, I suppose. In any case, it is a small sign of encouragement after the way the last Western effort under Antioch ended in the 1990s.

[@KnoxEmDown]

@@fathercyprian How did that last effort end, if you don't mind my asking? I did a deep dive on your parish website, and you seem to be the most in-depth English-language source of information on the ups and downs of the Western Orthodox in Europe, albeit from your perspective. Not even the Orthodox wiki goes into so much detail. Here in America as I'm sure you already know, the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate is the largest Western Orthodox group, and has been supported since the 60s. I know some people from it and have attended one of their churches myself. Would you mind giving us your take on them as well?

[@fathercyprian]

@@KnoxEmDown Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad you found the website informative. There really is a dearth of English-language material and information available so we've done what we can at my parish to try to make some small contribution. With regard to the AWRV, I'm reluctant to criticise the means whereby Orthodox Christians of goodwill encounter the Lord in the Holy Mysteries. However, what I see from the liturgical materials and in videos seems to be of a particular flavour that sits very uneasily with me. I realise that my opinion is of no importance but I think that the unease is perhaps due to the culture in which the AWRV exists. I'm happy to be corrected but my impression of the USA is that, for most, if not all, of its comparatively short history the ambient Christian atmosphere has been Protestant. So, when viewed on the American religious landscape, the sort of 1950s Roman and Anglo-Catholicism that forms the basis of the liturgical expression of the AWRV is seen as a link to a more authentic, apostolic Christianity. In the British Isles this is very far from being the case. These are the islands where we have easy access to the holy sites associated with the saints of the first millennium, where many of our churches are on sites where churches have stood for over a thousand years, and where the ruins of some of them still exist, where despite the Reformation, some of the relics of the saints of Orthodox times still survive. I realise this is a privilege and nothing to boast over, but the point is that, for us, an authentic expression of the Orthodox spirituality of the West must be pre-schism, in line with the spiritual experience that surrounds us. The mid-20th century Roman and Anglican liturgical materials that inspire the worship of the AWRV do not represent for us any sort of link to authentic apostolic Chrtistianity; in fact, if anything, they represent a departure from it. The idea that any Orthodox Christian would want to worship in this way is incomprehensible to us. One only need look at the various Orthodox groups here that use some form of the Western Rite: whether or not they fit into certain definitions of "canonical", whether they be Antiochian, ROCOR, Old Calendarist, or whatever else, nobody here uses that sort of approach. And this, I think, was the problem in the 1990s. When the Pilgrimage to Orthodoxy communities (former Anglican communities that were received into the Orthodox Church via the Patriarchate of Antioch) first came to Orthodoxy, the intention was that they would be Western Rite. A number people followed them into Orthodoxy on that premise. However, the approach taken at the time was to import the model from the USA into the British Isles. Needless to say, it was not well received and after a time it was very clear that it was not going to work. Nobody wanted to look like Anglicans or traditional Catholics, so they became Byzantine Rite. The experience left a bitter taste in the mouths of some people, but the communities flourished and have become perhaps one of the most mission-minded dioceses in this part of the world. Thanks be to God. The current Western expression in Antioch, though forbidden on Sundays and restricted to the Mass only, is based on a more ancient form of the Roman Mass, and what is likely to have been used by the Gregorian mission to England. So I suppose what the AWRV is doing might be culturally appropriate in its part of the world, but here we would perhaps look for something different in our Western Orthodoxy.

[@sergueimaniliouk9301]

Great episode, long time waited for this particular story to be analysed

[@drjohnn.sutherland3455]

I have long found the footprint of the 'Celtic' church intruguing. You make a good case for the spin of Bede, but the 1066 conquest (of England) as a turning point is new to me. I agree, there is room for a 1st millennium history of the Church in Britain.

[@travp1288]

Thank you Father, this is an incredibly important message… God willing, it will reach many

[@thereccereport1172]

Thanks Father this was interesting and insightful

[@elbapo7]

I love this area of learning. However i do feel you might expand, at some point- on the difference between the more catholic interpretation of christianity and that of the shared similarities between celtic/ethiopian and syrian orthodoxy in theological / belief or practise terms. What do we know of the difference? Can this be compared and contrasted? Why is better suited to a wind-swept isle than the roman version? I look forward to more in this area. Fascinating stuff- thanks

[@herrvonsiemens]

Excellent idea. I will do this. Thank you!

[@johnbeckett51]

Thank you.

[@IIZCHAOS]

Fr please join us on our pilgramge to Holywell next month on the 5th. We will be walking from St barbaras church in chester to holywell for a service and a blessing of the water. Or you can just go straight to holywell for the service.

[@davidbarrett590]

I have so much enjoyed the series and look forward to it going further. As an early medieval historian, I sort of knew this intellectually but you have put it in a broader context - particularly spiritual and what it meant for people at the time. I would ask something though, Father. What is your objective here? Is it purely historical; to root what Orthodoxy is practised in the UK in a more British historical context; to proselytise for Orthodoxy or to argue that Christianity as a whole in this country - particularly Anglicanism - should draw back to its Orthodox routes? It would be fascinating to know.

[@orthodoxexchange]

Thank you for this, and for your question in particular. I am going to take it up in a soon-to-be-released future episode!

[@johnward5102]

Good post. Christianity did not first come to our isles from Rome. I look to Polycarp and Irenaeus, but cannot name all the links in that chain. Polycarp knew John, who leaned on Jesus' breast at the last supper, listening to the heartbeat of God. The Johanine account says we can find God in personal meeting with Him, and in others, and in nature. See 'St. Patrick's Breastplate' for an epic account of this perspective. Then there is the Petrine account, 'You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church', which says we find God through the community of the church and its teachings. This is the Roman account. The two are often seen as opposed, as they were at the synod of Whitby, although they are, in my view, complementary. The 'disagreements' between Augustine of Hippo and Pelagius, in Rome c. 400 AD, are another example of this. Pelagius predates Gregory the Great and Augustine of Canterbury by two centuries and shows what a strong identity British Christianity then had, and how much it had in common with other Christian communities, even in Rome.

[@somersetpgrim]

Could not agree more with you Father, these isles belong to Orthodoxy

[@DrCrispyJohnson]

Tau cross on Tory island. Dysert placename in Ireland. The Martyrology of Tallaght mentions seven Coptic monks buried in Diseart Ulidh.

[@Fr.DavidKinghorn]

I have been greatly enjoying your videos, Father. It seems, though, that early British Christianity likely was introduced to Britain by Christians in the roman Legions during their time there as well as by Eastern traders. I hate to see Rome being viewed as less Orthodox than the East since in the First Millennium it was the Church of St. Gregory and St. Leo, to name a few, and it upheld Orthodoxy at times when the Eastern Church was rocked by Monophysitism or Iconoclasm or such.

[@WPAOrthodox]

☦️☦️☦️

[@joer5627]

Sadly the UK is a land of closed churches. To think the Friends of Friendless Churches has responsibilty to maintain a crazy number of churches is beyond sad.

[@crbgo9854]

My patron saint is st Bede but I do what your saying all the time he's orthodox

[@andrewwhelan7311]

Heddwch / Peace brother. You talk more sensibly about the old truth than a thousand historians could ever desyypher. Respect. If Bede has a weakness, it's because he never left his village and wrote about things that he learned second hand milenea after they happened . He laid the foundations for the distrust and subjugation of the native Briton's that survives to this day. The native Briton's would not bend the knee to Augustas. So he told the Saxon Angle Jute Flemish and countless mercenary hordes to kill as many indigenous holy mem ss they could. the old religion ead not based on power wealth and social control.. Love Pease and Civilization. Your endeavours are much appreciated.😊

[@daibhidh]

0:38 anyone know where is this place in this image and what it is called ? appreciated

[@shaunmulligan8717]

St Winefride’s Well, Holywell, Wales (well crypt contains star-shaped basin).

[@daibhidh]

@@shaunmulligan8717 thank you < 3