Is Zangief Too Strong In Season 2?

EVERYONE IS CRYING ABOUT ZANGIEF! IS IS JUSTIFIED?
Zangief got buffs. And now, suddenly, everyone is complaining and crying about Zangief. What change made him so good? And are the complaints justified? Why is everyone so upset whenever Grapplers can fight? Why does everyone hate Grapplers so much?!? O_o
== TIME STAMPS ==
0:00:00 Intro
0:01:13 Zangief's Knee Buff
0:04:13 Blocking Zangief's crLK
0:07:02 Everyone's Talking About Zangief
0:09:45 Beginners Can't Fight Grapplers
0:13:46 The Zangief Mental Stack
0:16:00 Lariat Buffs And Green Hand?
0:19:23 The Classic Grappler Archetype
0:22:01 The Frustration Of Grappler Players
0:25:43 The Green Hand
0:28:07 Lily And Manon
0:33:11 Grapplers Have Struggled
0:36:37 Don't Do The Work For Grapplers
0:40:03 Yes! Play Lame Against Grapplers!
0:43:13 Zangief Doesn't Let You Do Your "Fun" Stuff
0:47:50 Closing Thoughts
Find the KZbin version of this episode here:
• Is Zangief Too Strong ...
Get the audio version of this episode here:
/ season2zangief
Soundcloud - / ultrachentv
Itunes - UltraChenTV.com/iTunes
Spotify - open.spotify.com/show/4nOFXvd...
Join the UltraChen Discord! / discord
Please consider supporting our Patreon! / ultrachentv
Twitch - / ultrachentv
Twitter - / ultrachentv
James Chen
/ jchensor
/ jchensor
#FGC #Esports #Podcast

[@jamesw5713]

James Chen: 'I havent fought a lot of Zangiefs in Season 2'..........is that because its 90% Akuma 😂

[@checkmate8849]

The season just started. Most ppl cant just change into a new character and play their best. Not even pros. Akuma actually struggles against gief historically. Stubby normals, 2spd health

[@jamesw5713]

@@checkmate8849 LOL akuma is easily the best character in the game. My proof is in ranked I have dropped 1500LP since eh was released and off top of my head might have only won 1-2 ranked matches against him (Dhalsim). I don't need any other proof.

[@sloesty]

My matches are half gief half akuma. And most giefs are modern lo'

[@TheSoulCrisis]

Akuma is such a god damn menace, I don’t only play Zangief but every fight is annoying against him lmao. Imagine the day when I would be HAPPY to see Ken on the opponent screen versus Akuma! I hate fighting Ken with Gief and Akuma with anyone I run with….that’s the difference I feel right now. Only good thing is I am gaining a lot of match-up experience and his health goes down quickly. 😂😅

[@666slateran666]

Too strong? No such thing. They just finally made Gief real

[@UltraChenTV]

I’m still not convinced he’s as good as people say. Time will tell.

[@TheSoulCrisis]

@@UltraChenTVUntil you see 3 Giefs winning majors……just keep calling bullshit lol.

[@itsrumspringaa]

I thiink the access the grapplers got to more plus frames, and the change to tap parry recovery , helps them a lot enforcing a stronger strike throw game, they still gotta get in but when they do the potential is scary.

[@jessealvesgaldino7915]

Thanks for the show

[@Aliceblue14195]

After Super 1 hitbox extension, 2HP punish counter ground bounce and meterless Borscht in combo, I think that's quite enough. Other buffs like increased drive drain or meter gain are welcomed though.

[@TheSoulCrisis]

I can’t wait for more mobile grapplers to be introduced later on, really gonna shakeup the meta!! I might play Alex if he comes sometime.

[@plutoburn]

These gief complainers, especially at season 1, is just a more modern form of "throw is cheap" from the sf2 days.

[@fugutabetai]

Itazan sure is having fun right now.

[@yemzenpai]

Gief feels like how he should feel now…SCARY 50/50s when close.

[@chimpmasterflex]

Haven't really noticed much of a difference besides the insane meter gain, so DI'ing him feels extra risky now. I won't act like it comes up every match, but the ex kick grab (I think) gives like 80% of a bar or something nuts lol. In general he got a ton of meter buffs which means I have to deal with the level 3 mind-game more, which I do not like, but outside of that...? Probably never going to enjoy fighting grapplers, and you more or less covered why. Often times the matches wind up taking extra long though which prolongs the suffering. It isn't just them typically having high hp, but having to avoid their comfort zones. Even if there is a large skill gap between me and grapplerplayer69 who literally just wants to spd, that means they will typically throw out less stuff too. That means significantly more poking, and in a lot of cases just kind of stalling matches out as neither side wants to commit. Even if we are just talking about sf6, those kinds of matches suck the fun out of it way more than those 12 second snowballing matches. Even fighting a zoning heavy character, which I also tend not to like, you are at least "doing stuff" and are mostly able to play your game. You may have a move that goes through projectiles, jumping, simply blocking, using your own ex if you have one, etc. Then vs a grappler its death by 1000 light kicks.

[@Madolcheplayer]

Keep in mind that those meter buffs simply brought him up to other characters’ level. Before the patch while playing Zangief I would frequently have slight less than 2 bars while the opponent had their level 3 already.

[@chimpmasterflex]

@@Madolcheplayer Oh yeah I definitely noticed that when I tried to play him before. Imo they slightly overdid it, but that's just my personal preference.

[@dragonic22]

Does anyone know where Chen is getting the stats on winrates?

[@AdversaryOne]

I played Nash in SFV and never understood why people tried to go tow to toe with Zangief. My entire strategy was boom, m.kick scythe and bazooka knee wien he jumped and it worked on all but only a handful of Giefs in my 7 years of playing that game.

[@cesarrivas2270]

i hate being zoned, i hate being rushed down and i hate being grappled, in sum up i hate to lose😆. In the end in a fightihng game some one has to lose. You are fighting the player not just the character.

[@VarthDaver]

The Juri - Gief matchup feels miserable for Juri, especially now with the buffed Hop Knee. Her fireball is useless (unless used meatie of course) and a good gief will SPD you if you do a Fuha stock incorrectly, and her damage isn't that good to compensate either. Very harsh.

[@plannedtuna8293]

The hop knee (f MK I think) is not really that big of a deal. You can just whiff punish it if it’s a more spaced out fireball…that being said, his overhead kick also goes over Juri’s fireball and reaches like half-screen, and is a super easy reaction. So yeah the matchup is tough for sure. Fireballs are often not safe to throw out and Gief’s super long normals are actually pretty tough for Juri to deal with, so there isn’t really any comfortable range you can play in.

[@SuperLemonfish]

My advice is to use backdash alot when worried about spd, (his punishes for BD are still limited) fish for crossup jump-ins when closer, figure out spacings for her fireball that he cant punish, and of course, play footsies! You have great great buttons and walkspeed. Out-play the gief and win. The MU is winning for juri, even still. Its just not free anymore. Also, raw dash and raw drive rush are still just as unreactable as in season 1. Juri DR into her good buttons is super strong. Find times to fit that in. Good luck!

[@PipeRetrogamer]

It can go both ways. Juri can also lock Gief in the corner even if he has Drive. Only ways to get her off you are lvl2 or drive reversal. Not great options if you ask me

[@LeeZard27]

Guile main here. I only want 2 things for him: Cancellable crouch LK and his jumping Boom from SF5. If his Drive-ampiric approach/pressure tools are going to remain as dookie as they are, it could be compensated with better or somewhat normal (compared to the Ken/Luke/New Ryu/Akuma of the creation) mixup options once one can finally manage to low crawl in.

[@FACEHEADD]

IMO the last thing that should be impacting character balance is low-level ranked win percentages. Grapplers have every right to be competitive.

[@remigengogakusha]

39:30 【"That's where you derive your joy from fighting against grapplers" - UltraChen】😸 A very sincere answer on why you're playing the game, imo

[@xDJKerox]

I'm glad for grappler players! I'd like to have a more straightforward command projectile zoner available in the game, I'm currently playing Ed cause that midrange and flickers

[@xDJKerox]

I started with JP but somehow his trickery and up close pressure doesn't fit well for me

[@captainmega6310]

Like Sagat?

[@Yishu_Art]

gief main here. dont think dr knee is that op. it was plus too if you space it right. i think the biggest buff for gief is that hes more consistent now, the headbutt combo was a nice plus too. guess capcom is starting to realize on higher level gief dont have too much of an opportunity to grab. i was hoping od running bear was gonna go longer, but the pp ,5mk and 5hp consistency buff was big for me personally. also j2hp almost always link with headbutt is very good too. used to struggle at mr1300 now i fight at mr1500 easily

[@lazzygnome4060]

Pre-watch comment. I honesty don't feel Zangief is too strong right now. I think the buffs they gave him were well thought out. He also still suffers from strong wake-up pressure, even with the addation of wake up drive reversal. He's probably right in the dead middle of the tier list, in a game that I would argue where the lowest tier you could put any character is B+

[@griffendesai2039]

I feel like grapplers can be strong as long as other characters also have extremely potent offenses. Sasquatch in vsav has one of the strongest grappling games ever in a fighting game. He’s definitely one of the top tier characters, but you could still jump his ass with a bunch of other characters on the roster. You can genuinely play most characters in vsav and not feel smothered by the top tiers. I really think it’s a product of general high character power.

[@UltraChenTV]

I would not qualify Sasquatch as a Grappler in VSav. I get it, he’s got an amazing command throw, but his play style barely revolves around it. Not any more than Felicia and Raptor and such, since everyone has Command Throws.

[@griffendesai2039]

@@UltraChenTV I kind of had a feeling someone would bring that up. It’s definitely a fair point. It just seems like he gets more use out of his command throw than any other character in that game. I also feel like it’s very complimentary to his game plan. Being able to have a powerful throw option to go along with his crazy high low mix.

[@griffendesai2039]

@@UltraChenTV regardless I’m also just trying to shill out for vsav. That game is the best and I’d love to see more people play it.

[@UltraChenTV]

I will agree with that 100%! Vampire Savior really is the best.

[@OP10thNakama]

As a spectator nothing is more hype than seeing a command grab explode in a match. I'd be pretty annoyed if they nerfed our boy gief

[@verbatim7508]

I really wouldn't say that "low tier" and "cheap" are mutually exclusive terms. If you had a character that gets easily KO'd in one hit, but is capable of KOing you in one hit with some difficulty, that would be a low tier character... but it would also be a very toxic one for the game that nobody would really enjoy or have fun with. Now, of course, Zangief's design as a character isn't on that level of extreme-but my point is that grappler hatred doesn't have to be a scrub thing. Sometimes you just hate a character's style of gameplay on a visceral or even philosophical level. You brought up Nemo-do you really think Nemo doesn't know how to fight grapplers, and that's why he hates them so much? No, he hates them because he hates them. He finds them degenerate. Doesn't matter how low on the tier list they are-he would just rather not have to fight grapplers, because they're so deeply unenjoyable for him. And I think that's super valid. They are NOT fun!! Hahaha.

[@bryansannicolas]

Shhhhhh! Stop giving away secrets to Zangief!

[@baldbishop1667]

Also, zangief has a higher health pool, making "low damage" characters to need even more interactions to win. People dont like fighting grapplers because comand grabs are unblockable and cant be teched, so is like 5 frame unblockable high damage move.The key at low level is maximizing your punish if you have a read. Jumping heavy is your best combo starter. Also avoiding the type aproach of grapplers.I hate the matchup, but i respect grappler players, i can't land Jamie's comand grab to safe my life.

[@Vanfernal]

People just want to press buttons and not bother learning the matchup. Then the grappler is the problem...

[@Otgmar]

I think the only thing that should be fixed is making his hitbox during Drive Rush match his character model or vice versa. Trying to check 'gief's DR and seeing your normal visibly whiff on his body is dumb.

[@Sergio-wc1wn]

That’s a problem with most characters and in this game. I don’t think we need to make his drive rush bigger unless we do it with the whole cast

[@lexis1919]

Definitely feel th difference when i fight geif used to be free wins now im actually scared

[@naitomea4664]

I hate it when Mercury is in Gatorade

[@Yamisaru]

I dont miss the days i had tepuble fighting a zangeif

[@jpVari]

I find the cross up lariat request funny since... No one else auto hits cross up. He can hit cross up with proper timing, and people are always saying they want more challenge on the game. But here they want it to auto anti air even tho it's already hard to get close enough to zangief to jump over him. To me it sounds like the type of request people just say because they heard it. I'm glad it didn't happen.

[@Jardonius]

Rashid auto hits cross with his heavy mixer too! It just a little booty cheeks. Gief doesn't need that though he's fine

[@sorubro2193]

People just wanna have a good time after their 9 to 5 you cant blame them lmao

[@jpVari]

He feels noticeably stronger at my level, seems to be able to get closer more easily. But hey, that's life. I play jp and Ryu, things go up and down and so be it. If I really can't deal... I'll switch to him lol. But that's not likely.

[@Theguy-py4oi]

Make grapples suffer for making us play like this.

[@UltraChenTV]

They have been suffering for decades now. Hahaha.

[@Theguy-py4oi]

@UltraChenTV not enough.

[@dariang4725]

Whats a garpplers?

[@HungarianWarHorse]

Zangief will always have bad matchups just by nature, he'll never be top tier but he should always be strong for the health of the game

[@MrJuzJoe]

Casually, online when not everyone is a sweaty pro player. Zangief is ok, definitely not top tier but alright. Now that his been buffed so much, playing against zangief has been a real struggle. He can really bully you with his long range normals, light spd and 11k health. Ooof.

[@cymandeh]

a 7 ft tall 400lbs all muscle professional wrestler and yall wanna cry?!?! HUH?!

[@jamesw5713]

Id want green hand purely for variation, ending all combos with lariat is visually boring.

[@microwave302]

Manon player here. Frame trapping with back fierce to jab is great. People love to neutral jump so adding the ground bounce on back mk target combo ensures a medal after spending meter. I'm absolutely loving this version of Manon. 😂

[@FILTHYGEARSMUSIC]

Year 2

[@SuperLemonfish]

Harsh truth alert. Another factor in this, thats very real, although less acknowledged: The Gief players you use to play, at your pre-patch rank, where better than you (most likely). You are playing ken or luke or dj, getting carried, no offense, but its simply true that great characters can boost your rank. And meanwhile gief mains to get to that same rank had to simply work harder. Now with these significant buffs, the training weights are off, and instead of playing a bottom 2 character, the gief is playing a mid(?) tier character. *And* your (insert common top tier) has been nerfed to be less strong (still strong, just less). OF COURSE! everyone feels like gief just became amazing. We have to wait a while for the Elo to even out and the giefs reach their ”true” ranks. And also, ppl have to start taking the MU more seriously, amd actually lab it somewhat. And then the girf hype will die down.

[@TheSoulCrisis]

I call bullshit on all the people whining about Zangief getting some decent buffs! Try playing another character who Zangief loses to and see how far you advance without certain difficulties lol. I main Gief, but use Chun-Li, Guile, and learning Dee Jay on the side. It’s easier to use and win with ALL of those characters in most match-ups with less skill pound for pound. This is when you truly understand Gief is a struggle character in SF 6 with massive risks and tradeoffs required in a lot of situations to win. Chen is so dang on point!

[@timothy4428]

I think with as much people complaining with this version of Gief, which is mid tier, just shows how amazingly bad he was last season 😅

[@lsthree6996]

I'll give up all the buffs in exchange for green hand. Sheesh, just be glad we didn't get it.

[@plannedtuna8293]

Green hand isn’t coming back lol. No one wants to go back to that degeneracy except some Gief players.

[@MansMan42069]

10:38 Doo doo hehe

[@UltraChenTV]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2i4c6xnqtihqMk

[@jamesw5713]

Id rather lose to a zangief than a Puke main.

[@dragonic22]

Who's Puke?

[@666slateran666]

So NOW are you gonna play gief James hmmmm?!

[@UltraChenTV]

Definitely gonna take him for a spin, see if he’s LEGIT better or if this is just standard Grappler crying again.

[@666slateran666]

​@@UltraChenTV The change to how he effects drive gauge is a big buff . And his general combo routes have gotten a bit better, seen a changes video that showcased some nuts corner situations. He feels alot better personally. What blows my mind is Lilly won combo breaker and she barely got buffed outside of the universal changes like WDR. Kim also has a proper reversal now so I'm sure that's making you happy lol. Honda also got some insane changes that make him less gimmicky and better at high levels. Honestly the balance of this patch feels much more fair for everyone this time around. We'll see alot more variety in top 8s now hopefully!

[@UltraChenTV]

The Wake Up Drive Reversal is very meh to me. It’s basically designed to beat Throws and everyone could already do that with Back Dashes and such. They’re still too easy to safely Meaty with medium buttons and punish after blocking. Also, they only work on wake-up which means you still can’t bust out of Drive Rush Cancel gaps or Jinrai pressure or steal turns etc. It’s a lot more than just the wake-up situations why I think everyone needs an OD Reversal.

[@danv233]

I don't know why everyone is whining and complaining Zangief hasn't or can't win a major tournament quit complaining about this character and level up

[@FACEHEADD]

Agreed... but Snake Eyes did win a major tournament with Gief during season 1

[@danv233]

@FACEHEADD it was not streamed which tournament

[@FACEHEADD]

@@danv233 I'd have to look it up. It was the tourney where he qualified for Capcom Cup

[@craigfletcher-zn8kl]

You sunmed it up perfectly.if he starts dominating majors then he's a problem until then let us gief mains enjoy the changes.

[@thatonedudeguy8108]

"i hate gief because he makes me play boring" what a coincidence, i still hate playing gief because its fucking boring being forced to just walk across the entire screen the entire game because everyone just holds jump back and spams fireballs sf6 continues to show great game design philosophy by making gief's existence completely miserable to both players in the match

[@UltraChenTV]

Hahahaha. Definitely lot of truth to that, but Gief has ways to deal with it. Level 1 is actually decent at catching backwards jumps. But most of all, it’s been Gief’s MO since the beginning. I find some joy in trying to get in in people with Gief, so I don’t mind it as much.

[@fromundaman]

"Gief is clearly a bad character". This might not be true in S2. This is clearly CLEARLY not a bottom 3 character anymore, and the stats are showing that.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah, I meant in Season 1. ^_* In Season 2, definitely very different!

[@fromundaman]

@@UltraChenTV Ah, that makes a lot more sense, thank you.

[@scarletdynamogaming9334]

I hate garpplers!!!!!

[@giteshdhir]

I don't think he is a good character either. The SF6 design is shit,its like they made a crap character and instead of fixing his flaws and giving him more options they just leaned into his weird archetype even further. Its like people who hate grapplers don't want any variation in their gameplay.

[@dragonic22]

I'm of the belief that characters *should* have flaws and things they have to play around. I think it's a good thing they're leaning into Zangief's weird archetype

[@megamc3803]

What a clickbait joke video. He’s mid tier at best. Anyone that doesn’t believe this has no clue what they’re talking about.

[@UltraChenTV]

Have you been paying attention to social media? The doom and gloom over Zangief is immense. I agree with you that he’s not top tier, but the title is definitely not clickbait. This is literally what people are saying.

[@jamesw5713]

Lily should be deleted from the game and replaced with T.Hawk. i cant have any sympathy with a character that has the dumbest get in for free in the game. Terrible design.

[@dragonic22]

What are your thoughts on Ken's Dragonlash?

[@jamesw5713]

@@dragonic22 Dumb.

[@dragonic22]

@@jamesw5713 Akuma air fireball?

[@craigfletcher-zn8kl]

And kmberly while your there,there's so many better characters they could have gone with.