Isra And Mi’raj | Meetup With Rational Faith | Mufti Abu Layth

Clip taken from the weekly Wednesday night livestream, Meaning with MALM #33 | The Adventure Awaits You
Watch the full episode here: • The Adventure Awaits Y...
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[@danielmahmood5855]

I think Mufti should have let him speak more and tried to understand his points properly and clearly as I don't think he managed to get his points across that well I don't mean to criticise, it's all love. Perhaps it'd have been better if he said what he wanted then Mufti could reply after (usually Mufti is patient and doesn't interrupt, but I felt in this one it seems the case) Much love ❤️

[@FootballFreeK1ckz]

Mufti is definitely passionate about these topics but I felt he came across a bit rude and agitated. Reminded me a lot of Piers Morgan when he tries to crush an argument

[@NadeemKhan-ud2wz]

I don't think Mufti was making an argument. He was just pushing back for the sake of it like how Dawah guys will debate for the sake of it.

[@miaad84]

I agree, the caller was making valid points, and mufti sahab could have been more patient.

[@worldpeace4823]

His point was clear, and he was simply saying that because something is in the Bible it shouldn’t be in the Quran or Hadith, of course our religion has some similarity with Christian’s and Jews after all Allah sent one religion from the beginning.

[@AJay-zo8ue]

Mufti displayed his love for the Quran and nothing else. When unwarranted challenges of theologically unproblematic scripture are dealt with abruptly, it just stops the confusion spreading

[@saeed319]

Brilliant discussion. Please keep pushing the boat with rational chats like this. Any idea who Rational Faith is? A website, youtube channel? I think the sticky issue here is how little we actually know to be true.

[@rationalfaith9503]

I'm on discord 🙂

[@NadeemKhan-ud2wz]

Can I have link?

[@urdominus]

This was nonsense. Mufti tried to smoke that obviously. About as far from brilliant as possible.

[@Mevmotto]

The caller had really good points. The details seem pretty close to previous text and you could easily see how Hadith may have been influenced by Christian text.

[@memonm786]

Maybe, or the same vision was had by 2 different Prophets.

[@letxgf]

How can there be an issue with repeating patterns or events when the islamic religion clearly states that christianity and judaism come from the same source as islam, if it was too alien then the claim that the previous religions came from the same god would be false.

[@theprince8079]

I think you gotta listen again to what Mufti Abu Layth said again

[@rationalfaith9503]

@Mus But that's my point, if that's the case, we have to assume that the visions in Christianity are true, which is problematic because the same vision in Christianity makes Jesus divine. If it's made up in Christianity, why is it so similar to Islam?

[@letxgf]

@@rationalfaith9503 Why should we ? Just because similarities are present (and there are bound to be since from the islamic perspective it's the same god, same heaven, same hell same everything almost) it does not mean that because parts of it are considered true that the whole of it must be. Islam could be a carbon copy of christianity except for the story of jesus and it would still be fine. Something can be 99% true, and islam acknowledges the truth present in other abrahamic religions.

[@rationalfaith9503]

I also think if you don't know about the similarities, just say okay I'm not aware, I'll research them and get back to you instead of making an argument on what you think is right based on your own beliefs. If there's evidence, it has been copied. Biting the bullet is better than coping. I struggled with this too and this is one thing you'll find lots of Christians and ex Muslims attacking.

[@letxgf]

How can there be an issue with repeating patterns or events when the islamic religion clearly states that christianity and judaism come from the same source as islam, if it was too alien then the claim that the previous religions came from the same god would be false.

[@oneis1394]

Were you the one with the name 'rational' cause you were spot on I don't know where did you get this from but I had my own source

[@rationalfaith9503]

@Oneis 1 Yes, I was indeed. I found that this idea of Meraj was incredibly suspicious and not really supported by the Quran unless you went in with a preconceived bias. I do know Ghulam Ahmad Pervez has this take, and he was the one who originally made me question this.

[@oneis1394]

@@rationalfaith9503 yep he was my source too but I didn't took his name cause I fear but nobody has 100% consistency and there are too many people who claim to be one so I just keep searching and looking for all the opposites I can

[@rationalfaith9503]

@@oneis1394 Are you on discord, I'd love to discuss this more with you

[@waseemkhaliq7583]

Mufti saab very good explanation👍

[@awakenedsight]

Life would make more sense when we realize we don't know anything and that there is a lot to be unlearn.

[@urdominus]

For sure starting with this caller. He needs to start over completely

[@onlyabdelix]

As osho and jk advocate all the time

[@awakenedsight]

@@onlyabdelix for sure. All our faith is book oriented and this is the disease that we are facing.

[@thelegando4281]

Yeah like for example the word miraj is not in the quran, only isra. Miraj means ascension. Masjid al aqsa just means the farther masjid (away from the haram area) not 700 miles away

[@fahadalam8322]

Love U Malm

[@LeanOnPlants]

Fascinating 🧐

[@moedot7]

Notice in Arabic, it is spelled Samawat, in the Quran it is spelled Samaawaat! Samaawaat and Ardh is metaphorical for Layers of understanding, and the Scripture (i.e. Quran) When it talks about "cause corruption in the land" its really referring to "causing corruption in the scripture". Where ever it says Samawaat wal Ardh, replace it with "Layers of understanding and the Scripture" and watch the Quran unfold for you inshaAllah. P.s. when a non believer or an evil person is quoted in the Quran saying it, it means heavens and earth, because they are unaware of how to use the correct terminology.

[@epic7716]

It is Hani Atchan’s understanding ….. Mufti doesn’t buy it…..hahaha….naughty naughty

[@moedot7]

@@epic7716 👍🏼

[@AJay-zo8ue]

Eesa (AS) was also a prophet, I dont think there's any problem saying that Prophets had the same narratives about the nature of the next life. If anything, it proves the continuity of the prophetic message

[@orhanoo]

Salam Mufti. Can you do a renewed bukhari gate? Would spread more and be more beneficial for the umma, now that time has passed and your ourpout has matured MashAllah so much.

[@NadeemKhan-ud2wz]

I say this with absolute love but I think the caller made you look intellectually weaker because he was talking about things you probably hadn't thought about and you didn't expect the tables to be turned and for your beliefs to be challenged. I think it would have been better for you to have discussed rather than becoming defensive. Much love for you though ❤️ nothing but respect 🙏.

[@gladtidingstothestrangers7333]

the reason why he was confused and appeared to be defensive is because for those of us who know the historical chronology of events... will find anything the caller said to be contradictory and extremely inaccurate. He couldn't build his case from the beginning due to the sheer amount of inaccurate information. He was trying to escape the traditional narrative and that which is believed by the masses... and did this without evidence. He went with word counts, and narrative guessing, to the point abu layth just wanted him to get to the point despite the caller clearly lacking basic knowledge.

[@rationalfaith9503]

@Glad Tidings To The Strangers That's if you believe in the traditional account which itself is being put into question. You're assuming your version of history is correct and anything against it is inaccurate but what I'm saying is, the traditional version needs to be questioned. Obviously I'm aware of the traditional version.... I never mentioned word counts, I'm talking about how a word is used. If how a word is used is not important then the Quran itself has no value anymore and there's no meaning left. If x can mean abc sometimes d, if you feel like it then it can mean e or f if you like how it sounds then it's not a coherent book.

[@urdominus]

The caller was literally speaking gibberish. Mufti tried to make it obvious. All the supposed points easily refuted w/elementary intellect. The caller was grabbing onto to hypothetical garbage

[@rationalfaith9503]

@d d Okay so the idea of this being a migration is nonsense but the idea of the messenger seeing a vision in which he's on a flying animal, travels through the realms of heaven and meets different prophets, sees punishments of heaven and hell is more rational.... hmm okay then 👌

[@gladtidingstothestrangers7333]

@@rationalfaith9503 Clearly you are not a believer/muslim. The difference between you and me is, you think seeing is believing. You restrict your understanding of the world through your own eyes and ears. For you... anything you don't understand is nonsensical, an equation in mathematics or anything that appears to be complicated which YOU cannot fathom. If an almighty God wants to take his prophet on a journey and reveal things to him. It is logical on the basis God may do as he likes. On the other hand there is You. Mr Rational Faith. Your yardstick is bent. Your logic is flawed. You rather believe that God cannot do the things you cannot comprehend, in other words. Your God has to only be able to do human-able things, otherwise he is not God. ...Except, then you run into another problem, why would you even call him God in that case? Calling him Human should be just fine. Rational and Faith don't even go together. That's why you are having a problem "believing".

[@hammaadurrehman1459]

Mufti normally you are better at listening and you could have fathomed his angle if you did not interrupt him so much. Clearly you were annoyed or agitated. Nevertheless it is what it is…

[@NadeemKhan-ud2wz]

I think Mufti wasn't expecting his views to be challenged and it's not often that it's Mufti who is the one without knowledge. I love Mufti a lot but it looks like his ego took a hit.

[@hammaadurrehman1459]

@@NadeemKhan-ud2wz agreed. and given that mufti Saab talks so much about being accepting of everyone and speaking to people with love, kindness and openness it was hard to watch watch this. But everyone can let themselves down sometimes. The other dude was really patient. the mufti love will always be there tho.

[@oneis1394]

I too have listen about this theory of vision being that of the conquest of Makkah and alqsa being that it will be Madina from an Urdu scholar didn't know where did an English speaker got this from. No doubt having studied Bible this guy was spot on and was able to recover Qur'ans hint and directions unfortunately the segment became a matching debate instead of ideolgical imagination

[@rationalfaith9503]

It is unfortunate, but I feel like if Mufti had simply engaged with the point rather than being adamant he is correct. It would have been a better discussion, but he went into a full 100% debate mode which is not something I expected or was prepared for because I wanted to discuss this idea which is why I originally asked what his view was.

[@NadeemKhan-ud2wz]

Rational blew my mind with this information. I really hope Mufti continues with discussion without being rude and just listening to what he has to say

[@miranwar6288]

So are you suggesting that Al Aqsa is referring to Madinah and not Jerusalem??? Where did you get that idea?

[@rationalfaith9503]

@@miranwar6288 I never said Madina

[@DesignbyBK]

@@miranwar6288 Al-Aqsa as Madina is an idea given by Ghulam Ahmad Pervez (GAP). His viewpoint is that Chapter Isra describes the night journey in sense of Migration of Prophet Muhammad SWW from Mecca to Madina during a night. He says that Isra means to physically travel by night to escape. And same words are used for migration of Moses AS and Lut AS. He says that after verse one of Isra, the second and third verse also telling the stories of Migration. Verse two reminds of Migration of Moses from Egypt to Israel and verse 3 is talking about migration of Noah from its people. So according to GAP interpretation (totally opposite from traditional point of view) the night journey is referring to a journey when Prophet SWW was beaten by people of Taif and when they conspired to kill him, he had no other option to escape. So Allah told him to travel in the night to a farther place (al-aqsa) from Mecca. So when he reached in Madina he was welcomed by loving people and gained ground and thats how Islam spread. Just like after Moses escaped to Israel, Judaism spread. Just like Noah escaped his generation spread in the world. Now the question is, Is GAP correct? Maybe or Maybe not. But his view is point on and creates a logical theory. He also backs his theory by saying that Prophet’s She-Camel Qaswa name means the one who takes to farther place (Al-aqsa). He also claims that one of the name of Madina or Yathrib is Al-Aqsa in history books. And Allah knows better which story is right.

[@manndesfriedens5248]

Salam, I would be really looking forward to you inviting Dr Omar Ramahi to your Mindtrap...

[@manndesfriedens5248]

He is a very high intectual Quranist from Canada by the way

[@manndesfriedens5248]

His approach concerning the Arabic language is amazing. I dont know If you already came across his publications...

[@waseemkhaliq7583]

but did the other prophets meet and see Allah?

[@deedeebojack6042]

I think the caller was asking in good faith and had some good points that he wasn’t able to make because of Mufti interrupting him constantly. I am a fan of mufti and it’s all love but the reason you only started getting around to the callers point after like 30 min because he wasn’t able to speak 2 sentences without getting cut off. 💯 I hope he calls back

[@memonm786]

Bro bit harsh on him ❤❤❤

[@Mevmotto]

IKR

[@NadeemKhan-ud2wz]

Mufti was very rude and had disgusting behaviour. He should in all honesty apologise to him.

[@urdominus]

Not harsh enough . The caller's points bordered on retardation. Mufti should have hung up on him and saved this 40min drivel.

[@AJay-zo8ue]

Firstly, I would like to know where the Quran gets anything wrong, as the guest claims. There are hundreds of corrections of the Bible in the quran, some about true belief, others about historical facts and events, the Quran never claims to be the first revelation from Allah, every similarity cant be relegated to stories "stolen" from other texts.

[@brandonjoki5533]

Mufti knows how to take a caller’s argument, expound upon it and shove it back it their face with much more gold nuggets attached if the caller wants to do some research and reformulate his own argument better.

[@Javed6129]

The vision: the pan-textual Qur'anic evidence is against the traditionalist view of the supposed Miraj.

[@mohammedumarfarhan9900]

Jesus Ahlehissalam was a prophet himself. Maybe he also had similar visions during his time and there's nothing wrong in it.

[@moedot7]

رُءْيَـٰى noun indicating Physical Observation [short alif] رُّءْيَا Noun indicating an Opinion [long alif] Please pay attention to the spelling. Everything is there for a reason, it is not a coincidence.

[@fazalk9]

which dictionary you take this from. the word has only one meaning which is VISION,

[@fazalk9]

@UC1taPJl7gbt8BMmTUB87b1g sir I have watched about 4-5 hours complete series of this topic. Muslims has made this one story which happened in one night it’s wrong. It’s 4 different incidents. Yousaf AS story good point you raised all there the word Roya is used which means vision. For detail and neutral analysis and understanding please check Ghamidi sb on Isra and mairaj he has spoken about 5 hours about this and proved from Quran.

[@moedot7]

​@@fazalk9 Search "YT50" and "YT65" and you'll find your answer by Dr Hany Atchan, youtube channel Marvelous Quran.

[@moedot7]

@@fazalk9 my comment go deleted, dont know why?

[@moedot7]

@@fazalk9 I'm a fan of Ghamidi. But as far as evidence based knowledge goes, watch the playlist Story of Yusuf on the KZbin channel: Marvelous Quran. That is one NOT to be missed, I promise.

[@waseemkhaliq7583]

i'm sure they wanted to.

[@waseemkhaliq7583]

brother rational was funny God bless😂

[@brandonjoki5533]

“RATIONAL” … not so rational 😂

[@rationalfaith9503]

More rational than Mufti saying a vision exactly the same in Christianity is because thats just what happens while also making the Christian vision have validity 🤣🤣