‘It's just not fair’ | Grand Valley student quoted $84k for FOIA documents

[@FredSmith-s5t]

The cost is designed to keep others from asking for a FOIA.

[@bobroberts2371]

How is the cost unreasonable for an estimated 2,000 hours of work sorting through 59,000 e mails? ( Time 038 shows the time estimate of just under 2,000 hr ) This would take 13 people working 8 hr a day a MONTH to process. Remember, the e mails need to be located, reviewed, personal information redacted then the whole pile processed.

[@troywest1724]

@@bobroberts2371Correct and the people have already been paid their fair share when they acquired the information initially. So the cost of it now; after the money has been paid for the data and personnel, should be lowered so millions of people can access the information it’s basic capitalism. So, to the point of the OP, the cost is designed to keep others from asking for a FOIA.

[@bobroberts2371]

@@troywest1724 The cost is for processing existing information and the high cost is because they want 59,000 e mails that need reviewed and redacted of personal info. Or would you feel better if the information was dumped in raw form, information that might contain YOUR personal information like SS numbers and such.

[@CountryAndProud]

​​@@bobroberts2371this isnt the 60s anymore where it takes teams of people sorting though paper... this is the digital age, its just a few button pushes and mouse movements. Stop acting like 80 grand is reasonable for documents. Its a tactic used to hide the information they dont want out. Thats it

[@thecheese4255]

If this was an internal request or a matter of satisfying a govt entity, this song and dance would likely never come up. But, yeah, saving money has always been a govt priority. SMH…

[@writerconsidered]

That is straight up obstruction of FOIA request. It would be cheaper just to sue them. Get the *Institute for justice* involved. they get things done.

[@bobroberts2371]

What would be a fair charge for 2,000 hours of work to collect, review, redact the request?

[@user-zu5do6ri6r]

$5. Considering the information has already been collected. Are they trying to charge him for the time already spent gathering it?

[@bobroberts2371]

@@user-zu5do6ri6r They are asking for THOUSANDS of e mails, this takes time to collect the specific ones requested. Time 069 shows just under 2,000 hours to collect, review, redact.

[@shatteredstar2149]

​@@bobroberts2371did my tax dollars already not pay for that shit?

[@SuperSayinSolidSnek]

​@@bobroberts2371 The taxes we already paid to be there doing their job in the first place?

[@RandomGuy-k7m]

Grand valley digging in their heels, $84k is a sign something is wrong.

[@bobroberts2371]

Look at time 039 , there are an estimated 2,000 hours to prepare the documents.

[@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket]

@@bobroberts2371 Then they need to be more efficient. There is no reason this should take more then fifteen minutes. Anyone that knows how to work with large amounts of data would agree. This is wilful on their part to make it unreasonably expensive for us to FOIA them.

[@bobroberts2371]

@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket They are asking for THOUSANDS of non specified e mails , just how would you go about collecting, reviewing, redacting personal information in 15 minutes?

[@stevereimer5254]

In the late '90s I was part of a federal study. Someone decided to file a FOIA request for all the data for the 5 year study. They changed their mind when they were given an estimate for the cost. I don't think they had any idea how much paper (this was pre pdf) they were asking for. All of it to be photocopied and collated. They decided that they would settle for the final reports. Post Covid it would be simpler to do as a data dump but would still be terabytes. Ultimately they would not have been able to handle that much data.

[@lazygardens]

@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket Retrieving them is easy. Redacting the information that privacy laws forbid them from sharing is what takes time.

[@jeremyortiz2927]

Watch he finally gets enough support to pay $84k only to find out that 99% of all the documents are redacted.

[@danward7891]

Two years ago I put a FOIA request with a federal agency and was charged $956.20 for 1254 pages and 45 pictures of the 1254 pages everything was redacted except for 256 words and every picture was blacked out.

[@SL-lz9jr]

That's insane. I would've published all those redacted pages and images to the internet. Might as well make those 256 legible words free for others.

[@opaltoralien4015]

That's insane. There should be a rule that any amount of redaction above 30% warrents a corresponding refund, but more than 95% is an equal refund because the payer is recieving nothing. 45% redaction = 15%, 99% redaction = 99% refund.

[@GiatrosDys]

Scammed

[@Hmoney0]

Where’s bobrobert defending this

[@dragonboyjgh]

What was the topic. Sounds like something they don't want to talk about, ergo something very much worth investigating

[@suqmadiq68]

Tell everyone you're crooked without telling everyone you're crooked.

[@gigaus0]

That's easy; request an entire school's emails to the point they need to print 80k worth of pages to meet your request. Whole thing stinks of a grift.

[@DxBlack]

Without?

[@wp8767]

It's not crooked to make people pay for your employees having to do extra work. Every single page you request in a FOIA request has to be reviewed by a real live person who also has to manually redact sensitive personal information from every single page. His FOIA could have been thousands of pages long. Comments like yours are the perfect example of dipshit entitlement mentality.

[@randomvids8124]

@@gigaus0 They specifically requested "nonpaper media" so that wouldn't be an issue. There are no pages. The school could provide the documents on a $2 flash drive.

[@hounvs]

​@@randomvids8124 they still need to spend thousands of hours redacting.

[@lowermichigan4437]

This is a denial in the form of an outrageous fee.

[@bobroberts2371]

How is this an outrageous fee for 59,000 e mails that need an estimated 2,000 hours to collect, review, redact and compile? This is 13 people working 8 hours a day for A MONTH.

[@user-xs1fm3bo8t]

If the fed can send 60 billion to Ukraine, they can afford the FOIA.

[@HealthWyze]

​​​​​@@bobroberts2371That's just making up numbers. It would take me about an hour to forward 50,000 emails. Do you even know how to use a computer, or is the problem that you are one of the cronies involved in this situation? You people are the problem and it's long overdue for you to pay consequences. You need an entire team to send out some emails? With that kind of incompetence, I almost guarantee you're one of them. And if the issue is too many redactions, then what does that say about your corruption? Why do you have so much to hide? The whole point of freedom of information is to bring these hidden things to the light of day. Some people have to commit more crimes to cover up their previous crimes. Isn't that how your real math is working?

[@jameswest9261]

Taxpayers are paying a person occupying the position of FOIA Officer and Iwould bet there is a staff. If we are paying them, what are their duties? Doesn't a FOIA officer get paid to respond to FOIA requests. Do they earn a salary and the fee for the FOIA request?

[@bobroberts2371]

@@jameswest9261 It is doubtful that there is a dedicated FOIA " officer " that has the sole responsibility to process these requests. Besides, I doubt that the school gets such a high volume of FOIA requests that the position is staffed full time. Regardless, the request is for 59,000 e mails that will take an estimated 2,000 hours to review and redact personal information. This is one person working A YEAR or 13 people working A MONTH. I'm betting that the requester never intended on getting the e mails and just wanted to stir things up.

[@radolfkalis4041]

They came to 84k because they don't want to give the info out, and they are betting he does not have the money.

[@bobroberts2371]

It came to $ 84 K because they are asking for 59,000 e mails that will take 2,000 hours to process. This is 13 people working 8 hr a day for A MONTH.

[@clintmatthews3500]

People they already pay with taxpayer dollars. Fee should be $0.

[@Reno_Slim]

​@@bobroberts2371 Unless they're hiring additional outside people to fulfill the request, the people doing the redactions are already on the payroll so the only charges should be the cost to publish the records, e.g. the cost of the paper/ink/toner or a CD/USB drive etc.

[@FlowKio]

I think it’s trumped up overcharges to just pocket

[@antontsau]

​@@bobroberts2371whut? Who will process emails? What to process in emails at all, computer makes it in minutes.

[@bsmartr806]

Make him pay $1 for the documents. Fine the school $84000 for trying to restrict information. Start an investigation to see what they're hiding.

[@B__C]

Don’t our tax dollars already pay government agencies for their time and service?

[@matthewjohnson3656]

For universally used services yes. But some people want extra privileges, like driving on roads and has taxes, you have to pay extra to get them

[@wildwoodproductions4425]

​@@matthewjohnson3656public records are universally used, correct?

[@wildwoodproductions4425]

Yes, taxes already pay these civil servants salary. The requester has to also pay their hourly wages to fulfill the request for information. It's to hinder the requester and obstruct their business. Many requests are made that can harm officials so I believe it's intentional.

[@matthewjohnson3656]

@@wildwoodproductions4425 they can be universally used, but most documents are not universally used. If a government agency has to hire extra people to fulfill the document request needs of a few organizations, who if everyone have to pay? Or just the people who want those docs? I’m not saying a document should cost 84k. There is like a 99% chance that is excessive. But I also don’t want to bear the externalized cost of other peoples business

[@Tengokuchi]

​@@matthewjohnson3656 these are public records and should be a small flat fee or already available online for anyone to see. Otherwise they're not public at all.

[@tonimarie8951]

Costing money is NOT freedom of information.

[@ianbattles7290]

Freedom...for those who can afford it.

[@vihtoripuurola3775]

Freedom is not free. Taxpayers end up paying for some these requests which can take months to put together and thousands of pages printed off.

[@arrivals1]

​@@vihtoripuurola3775So why should the person requesting PUBLIC INFORMATION foot the bill for someone else's lack of logistical capabilities?

[@vihtoripuurola3775]

@@arrivals1 Those "logistical capabilities" costs money. Some FOIA requests can take multiple employees weeks to fulfill by redacting paperwork, combing through emails and videos or audio files. Why should I pay for someone else's curiosity?

[@arrivals1]

@@vihtoripuurola3775 Again, why should it take that long to do all that? And yet again it's PUBLIC INFORMATION. I'm still failing to see why the person requesting the information should be charged for it

[@duotronic6451]

All government docs should be publicly available at the library. That would clean up corruption in a heartbeat.

[@Tryp-j9d]

BULLSH1T!! They ALL SHOULD be ONLINE, 24x7x366!!!!! And 100% FREE!!!

[@ronrollins381]

No.

[@lazygardens]

And if the documents had YOUR personal medical, legal or financial details in them? Still want them at the library?

[@meltdown6165]

@@lazygardens In Sweden everybody can look at the tax record of anybody. Lowest tax evasion rate in the world ...

[@cas2985]

@@lazygardens It’s called FREEdom of information.

[@chiehlilee9224]

$83999 lawyer fee, $1 application fee….

[@whitneywest3538]

Application fee that they later waive. The generosity knows no bounds.

[@chaosking911]

Time to sue them over that and get all those documents in discovery.

[@johnsmith1953x]

*$84.00 is a rip-off* $84,000 ?!?! Some people need to go to prison for FRAUD....

[@txhookey5608]

Notify the State AG. I've had to do it multiple times and they have always forced the release of the information.

[@derekelliott6098]

Third biggest LOL comment ive read. AGs dont control or oversee FOIL. Nor to they force requested agency to release without pay.

[@Objectified]

No, you haven't. The information still has to be reviewed and redacted. Someone still has to do that. And there's still a cost associated with it.

[@bonochromatic6841]

​@@ObjectifiedYes, but not an annual salary's worth of money. This is intentional.

[@derekelliott6098]

@@bonochromatic6841 Say the school's FOIL (not FOIA) is $1 per printed page. Damn, 84K adds up fast.

[@derekelliott6098]

AG does not control or manage FOIL. And definitely not FOIA as that's federal.

[@kskeel1124]

The school just doesn't want anybody looking at their internal communications...

[@Bill-im6nt]

It makes me curious as to what could take that much to undercover in a public school???

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

They don't want to be sued for making public things that were privileged or otherwise exempted from these requests.

[@kpro8908]

@@SmallSpoonBrigadeRead the request. The only way it adds up to 59,000 documents is if many tens of thousands are irrelevant.

[@hounvs]

​@@Bill-im6nt wtf is that sentence and why do so many people like it? Y'all clearly just want to be mad because you're unhappy with other things in your life. Misplaced frustration at a process working correctly. The kid is trying to take advantage of the FOIA process. He is literally the reason it's designed the way it is, otherwise scumbags like him would flood them with impossible amounts of work. Y'all keep citing taxes and saying it's already paid for but no, the taxes pay for other things. You would either need to increase taxes to cover this or move funds from elsewhere. If you want to be mad about the price, then advocate that the government spend less on other things like the military and divert funds to internal needs. If you don't want that then it goes back to you being mad just to be mad.

[@multieyedmyr]

And now they have time to redact each and every one of those communications as the poor guy fights it.

[@damonr4136]

That's an obvious attempt to circumvent Federal Law

[@BrokebutCreative]

Federal law has nothing to do with it. Universities are governed by the state and the states FOIA laws. Be educated.

[@damonr4136]

@@BrokebutCreative OK smarta$$ State Law, does that make you feel better

[@NoName-zz1qt]

​@@damonr4136 I'll bet he feels real smart 🤓

[@damonr4136]

@@NoName-zz1qt 👍, Right like it matters which.

[@HealthWyze]

​​​@@BrokebutCreativeIt'll just happen to be that one school that doesn't take any federal funding. A good lawyer can argue that any institution which is federally funded, is in fact, acting as a federal agency.

[@thublit]

"Gov has the right to charge" For what? printer ink? Certainly not hourly cost that is already paid.

[@Tugela60]

They have to hire someone to do the work. That someone has to be trained, and will be on contract for a minimum period of time. All this costs money. And no, its not a few hours worth.

[@FourFourSeven]

​@@Tugela60 _"All this costs money. And no, its not a few hours worth."_ Wait, you're not actually justifying $84k as labor fees, right...?

[@mechalith2791]

​@@Tugela60 I think most FOIA requests are handled by the existing staff of an organization, not by hiring and training outside temp. employees from scratch, unless it's a truly colossal undertaking. For something like an email request all they should need is one person with a set of search criteria, access to the Exchange server, and the time needed to vet the data after the mostly automated process does the bulk of the work. Any organization that uses digital filing systems (most of them, at this point) should have a similarly easy time finding and collecting relevant records. The only way that price tag wouldn't be nuts is if the kid is asking for a genuinely massive dataset, and even then, past a certain point the request either gets easier or denied entirely because of being far too broad.

[@Tugela60]

@mechalith2791 If their staff is occupied with other things they will hire and train a new employee, and bill you. It is also not as simple as doing an automated search. The information has to be vetted so that only relevant information is released, and that no confidential unrelated information is accidently released. That requires a lawyer to review everything. The organization providing the requested information has liability exposure on doing that. It is NOT a simple thing, it requires considerable resources.

[@Tugela60]

@FourFourSeven If you are hiring someone on contract in order to do this, the contract will be for a minimum period, usually 3-6 months, during which they will need to be trained. Someone needs to train them. The organization is not going to stop performing their normal operations to gather all the information you want. Also, what you don't seem to understand is that an employee does not only cost their salary, there is overhead as well. Adding headcount is expensive in an organization. All of that has to be paid for, and the person doing the request is the one who will be doing the paying.

[@sleezye100]

Correction, they’re already being paid to do their job. Their job is to service the public. They don’t need fees for that if that’s how they want to conduct their business then they should be removed from all state and federal funding.

[@mastod0n1]

The charge is usually related to the time it would take to redact sensitive information. And if the request is asking for "thousands of emails" as they claim it would take hundreds of man hours from their ability to service other citizen's requests.

[@sciencetube4574]

@@mastod0n1 Even then, it would still be a rate of over $100/h. That’s not reasonable for processing a request that is part of your job, anyway.

[@ronwade5646]

Corruption much?

[@bobroberts2371]

You do realize that they are requesting 59,000 ( That is 59 THOUSAND ) e mails with an estimated processing time of just under 2,000 hours. This would be 13 people working 8 hr a day for A MONTH to collect, review, redact personal information and compile. The real question is does this person intend to use these e mails or are they just putting in an unreasonable request to stir things up?

[@marieabineau]

much corruption !!!!

[@FlexYourFreedoms]

​@@bobroberts2371no it wouldn't. You clearly dont know how technology works...

[@Zoleankico4267]

@@FlexYourFreedoms Seriously! 😂 Kinda like how fizer couldn’t produce documentation for 75 years; “not enough man power”… Thank God the judge didn’t allow it.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

@@Zoleankico4267 That's a completely different matter. This is a school that doesn't get to run up large profits to pay for things like this. Any money that they spend on this is going to either come from students or the government and it won't be from the government these days.

[@mylaughinghog]

@13ONYOURSIDE should foia request all documentation about how the $84k bill for the other foi request was determined.

[@pinky6758]

This. So much this.

[@bobroberts2371]

Look at time 039 , it shows a time estimate of just under 2,000 hours., Other posts say they are requesting 59,000 e mails.

[@HealthWyze]

​@@bobroberts2371Can't wait to see you in court for this.

[@derekelliott6098]

FOIL releases come with an itemized invoice.

[@notyetdeleted6319]

@@bobroberts2371can they not just get a bot to scrape it? Yeesh

[@Max_Chooch]

Having to pay means there's no freedom in receiving that information. Corrupt dirtbags hiding something is what that is.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

Having to pay also means that people can't paralyze poorly funded agencies with floods of questionable requests.

[@cantprocess]

⁠@@SmallSpoonBrigade”poorly funded agencies” 😂😂😂

[@wiilov]

​@@SmallSpoonBrigadeDamage control is a very bad look, nowadays

[@theyaden]

I could understand a fee that covers additional costs incurred but I'm having trouble believing that $84,000 in labor is being incurred to find files that are already being compiled for an investigation.

[@tommy0con2]

there should be a fee. someone is working to get those documents. HOWEVER 84k is far far beyond what the task was in this case

[@sparkplug1018]

The explanation actually makes sense guys. He made a incredibly broad request, spanning thousands of documents and emails. Which for nothing more then the sheer volume, will take weeks to track down, redact, copy and then deliver. Anyone expecting that for a couple hundred is just nuts. Kid either needs to be much much more specific about what he wants (which it seems like he doesn't know) or just admit that this was aimed to make them waste their time, and found out that there is a price tag on that.

[@anonymousguy1794]

FOIA requests should be free. There should be zero cost for the people to get information from the government that our taxes fund.

[@OnceShy_TwiceBitten]

It's a school, and it also needs 2000 hours of manual work to recover and collect FIFTY NINE THOUSAND emails, that someone has to do all that work, they should do it for free? That's slavery, it's not ever going to work how you think, if it was me, I would get up and leave, so no one would ever do that work, period, NOW, make it FREE TO ACESS, as in do it your fucking self. BY ALL MEANS. But you can't have random people with full access to government systems etc, An isolated copy of every server etc, but then every place needs to pay an unfair price to keep double to data etc. If you want the information, you can have it, but you have to pay someone to do the work, it's just how things work.

[@olipritchard8151]

I agree when it comes to digital copies. Physical copies, it's reasonable to expect a small charge, which should be a capped limit to cover resources, like 10c per page upto a maximum of like $50

[@randallspinks2345]

Blocking with money classic politician bs

[@christovelasquez9595]

These are not politicians, these are administrators and non bureaucrat employees.

[@wiilov]

​@@christovelasquez9595So glorified secretaries that don't want to do their job, got it

[@stevenp25100]

They said he wants like 60k documents, all have to be scrubbed, printed and boxed, that'that'snot nothing ​@wiilov

[@waltersvg]

I'm pretty sure all of that work and information has already been paid for by taxpayers. How do they claim to have the right to charge for their services?

[@peterrose5373]

The FOIA allows institutions to charge a reasonable fee for compiling the requested documents. (I suspect this is mostly to prevent jackasses from disrupting or bankrupting an unpopular institution by filing an avalanche of frivolous requests). $84000 dollars, however, is not reasonable. chances are, they're trying to bill the legal team's hours for going through and redacting anything that might be used against them in the legal suit.

[@bobroberts2371]

@@peterrose5373 Look at the estimate at time 039, it lists 1966.5 working hours to pull , review and redact personal information in THOUSANDS of e mails requested.

[@bobroberts2371]

@@peterrose5373 Time 039 shows just under 2,000 hours to fill the request for THOUSANDS of e mails.

[@ISayNukem]

​@@peterrose5373 I wonder how much of the information will be left after redaction. 😂

[@Mike-uc1eu]

If your salary is paid by your boss, you shouldn't be allowed to charge your boss for the work product.

[@AK1776-]

This should be illegal.

[@davidjackson2690]

It is.

[@bobroberts2371]

How?They are wanting THOUSANDS of e mails that will take nearly 2,000 estimated hours to pull, review, redact. ( look at time 039 in the vid )

[@wawabbit]

@@bobroberts2371 That is kind of their job...

[@robertperry8265]

It is

[@bobroberts2371]

@@wawabbit The university likely gets few FOIA requests so I doubt that there would be a dedicated person on staff to fill these requests. Would you feel better if there were 13 people on staff sitting around waiting to fill FOIA requests that rarely occur ? You know, to fill the 12.5 person staffing need to fill a 2,000 hour FOIA request by working 8 hr a day for a month. Get it now?

[@bulkbogan4320]

Seems unconstitutional.. They should be held accountable!

[@Bonzi_Buddy]

Go to a lawyer, sue and then demand those documents through discovery.

[@Ddccpp2152]

That should be illegal for them to do! That would be a good case to fight in court and could set a new law for fair pricing to the public.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

They estimated it at 2,000 man-hours to complete. How much do you think somebody should be charged for using that many government resources?

[@cantprocess]

@@SmallSpoonBrigadeseeing how “government resources” are all already paid for by tax dollars I’d say a big fat $0 since they already paid by just going to work.

[@brbl415]

@@SmallSpoonBrigade they are already paid

[@---capybara---]

At this point, what we need to do is have unpaid FOIA be part of the contract.

[@f4ephilosophy691]

@@cantprocess With your logic, what is stopping 10,000 people all requesting 59,000 emails back to back and slogging the office for over a year free of charge? I bet my bottom dollar you will say "nothing is wrong with that" and double down.

[@danielboone8435]

1:10 yeah, they're called taxes. We already pay them.

[@Winstonrodney6989]

Exactly!

[@supernova743]

Having the requestor pay some of the bill is a way to keep vexacious litigants from wasting too much taxpayer money. I could spend all my free time making fioa request if they were free and wasting millions of taxpayer funds in the process.

[@danielboone8435]

@@supernova743 Or its just a way to charge taxpayers twice for the same work. And sheild themselves from public scrutiny, in complete defiance of the nature of the law. Probably that, if I had to guess. Weird that anyone would defend it. The world would be a much better place if people would stop having such awful opinions.

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

@@Winstonrodney6989 No, the taxes don't cover this. No agency is funded enough to cover large requests like this. I don't know where people get that idea from, but if it really was just a matter of running the search and handing over the documents identified, it would be less than a hundred dollars and be free to the party requesting them. But, it's not that, there's private information that's not subject to these requests that is sometimes in there and just because an email in general is public, doesn't mean that portions of it don't have to be redacted. That all costs money and the taxes do not cover it.

[@Winstonrodney6989]

@@SmallSpoonBrigade yeah, I have realized that since I made the original comment. I definitely understand the point of it being a deterrent for frivolous requests as well.

[@The_General_Zubas]

TALK ABOUT SOMETHIGN TO HIDE! Holy Shnikies, dude

[@stevenp25100]

Nah, They said he wants like 60k documents, all have to be scrubbed, printed and boxed, that's nothing.

[@The_General_Zubas]

@@stevenp25100 Hmm, that is a lot of paperwork.

[@CarlCarlson-jq3xr]

@@The_General_Zubas Yeah dozens of employees working 8 hrs a day for multiple weeks doing nothing but filtering through the paperwork.

[@The_General_Zubas]

@@CarlCarlson-jq3xr Someone’s gotta black sharpie all the incriminating evidence, after all.

[@fridayrestday]

It's called "Retaliation & Intimidation"

[@patrickbodine1300]

FOIA SHOULD BE FREE. EVERY TIME.

[@davidtauriainen9116]

Two arguments against this position: 1. If they're totally without cost, FOIA requests could be abused to cripple any agency. There has to be a minimum barrier to entry; a nominal fee. There aren't FOIA-specific employees in every department just waiting for requests to cross their desk. People doing other jobs are tasked with the collection and redaction, which leads to 2. The emails with a certain phrase in the subject or body can be found in less than a minute, but every email needs to be reviewed by at minimum two people (a representative of the involved department and a government lawyer) to make sure secrets and privacy are upheld. In this case, you have the privacy of other students, some of whom might be children if they're attending university early or if the emails involve application information. And the request makes all the difference; saying "all application emails" turns into a nightmare, because those emails have to actually be provided, but with information redacted, but *only* the information that involves the security of the state or privacy of others, which means lots of real human hours get spent pouring through very boring documents. And as mentioned above, the department employee and lawyer both are not hired just for FOIA. FOIA requests keep them away from their regular tasks. Thus, someone decided that certain rates for the request fee could be applied based on the estimated cost of redaction. I agree that $84k is way more than a nominal fee, but it sounds like the FOIA request was over-broad and should have included more search terms specific to their case, allowing computers to pare down the number of emails requiring redaction.

[@Ryarios]

How to tell people that you’re desperate to keep that information secret without telling people you’re desperate to keep that information secret.

[@bobroberts2371]

How to tell people that you really don't want the e mails and just stir things up by requesting 59,000 e mails then complaining about the cost.

[@Ryarios]

@@bobroberts2371 charging over $1 per email sounds reasonable to you?

[@zackkirako8574]

There is software to filter sensitive information it's not done automatically

[@bobroberts2371]

@@zackkirako8574 Care to name the SW that would automatically know what is sensitive info and not?

[@TheSiriusEnigma]

2:23 "...Thousands of E-Mails..." What are they going to do? Write them by hand on water marked papers? At this point, you might as well sue them. It's cheaper and they can face jail time for redacting documents.

[@bobroberts2371]

Thousands of emails as in 59,000 that will take 2,000 hours ( see time 039 ) to collect, review, redact personal information then compile. This is 13 people working 8 hr for A MONTH

[@TheSiriusEnigma]

@@bobroberts2371 lol. Then hire professionals, not students. At least half of these emails are duplicates, the same e-mail sent to several recipients. 15% to 20% are outlook meeting requests. From 60 000 to less than 25 000 in less than an hour. Not impressed.

[@ruck-a-tron]

@@TheSiriusEnigmaI agree, but at the end, they did say that the FOIA officer told them some ways to narrow down the searching. Probably if the guy provides more information, the search can be easier and cheaper.

[@bobroberts2371]

@@TheSiriusEnigma If any e mails are missing, the person asking for them will scream conspiracy. I'm betting that the person wanting the e mails really does not want them and this excessive request is just to stir things up. The real question is why are they doing this as well as how are they going to process 59,000 e mails to find what they are looking for?

[@TheSiriusEnigma]

@@bobroberts2371 if IBM could produce 40 years of code writing (AIX operating system, during the SCO VS IBM case)… enough paper to burry the court house, I think a university can figure out how to process a mere 59 000 e-mails.

[@rachel112263]

He is requesting emails from four people from a 1-year period with a certain name or phrase in the title and/or body of the email. The bill says it will take six hours to collect the emails and 1,986.5 hours to pick out the specific ones he's looking for. Assuming the person tasked to go through each email will spend 8 hours a day on this, the university claims it will take 248 days to collect this information WHICH IS INSANE.

[@Bill-im6nt]

Sounds like a quick job for the computer to sort out in a few minutes.

[@shatteredstar2149]

​@@Bill-im6ntthey're going to need a few million dollars to hire someone to study if they need that option in their software and another few million for a contract just to end up with a subpar program that struggles sorting emails by key words.

[@lazygardens]

When you have to have someone READ each email and make a decision, and probably redact certain information to protect privacy of other students ... yes.

[@poolhall9632]

AI could do it in a couple mins.

[@raymondfranko2894]

@@rachel112263 The number of emails involved per the schools press release is 59,000.

[@chart461]

They are crooked and don’t want to be into investigated. They need to be taken to court.

[@darthmadeus]

The government or any educational institution that receives government funding (most colleges do) should not be allowed to charge to provide information that we the taxpayers have already paid for

[@williamholcombe31]

Take to the state attorney general's office .

[@derekelliott6098]

AGs dont control FOIL or FOIA

[@CrabFiles]

That is one way to keep information from the public...

[@tk-sd9dv]

84 dollars would still be too much

[@bobroberts2371]

Too much for 59,000 emails that will take 2,000 hours to process?

[@unclesunbro1577]

​@@bobroberts2371yes. And it would not be thousands of emails and take thousands of hours to process. Get real.

[@TanDJServices]

Sue them in small claims and request the information through discovery.

[@Nethezbet]

Sue. In discovery they can't charge at all, and will be paying a TON in legal fees.

[@lisalittle4826]

Sue them.

[@lauriivey7801]

I think that somewhere along the way we, as a country, have lost the plot ... and We The People are definitely no longer in charge

[@Solscapes.]

I don't think we ever had it. Something about Land of the Free being written 50 years before the Emancipation Proclaimation makes me feel like there's always been people trying to hide it.

[@wawabbit]

Welcome to 'Murika.

[@adamredbeard5232]

We haven't for a long time. The rich even own scotus.

[@Dhydronyc]

The request for that kind of💲is actually a criminal act. Not on the books, but suing them for extortion could be done, and I personally would try it. It is an attempt to block and bypass a law meant for the good of the public. For democracy in general.

[@michael-mv3de]

It’s called a Freedom of information act, and government employees are paid with tax dollars correct? Then why on earth would they have a right to charge the people their suppose to be serving when we ask them for something?

[@johnnelson8956]

This is where Congress needs to step up and pass legislation to make all FOIA requests free to any and all American citizens that request them. These are in fact public records after all.

[@DrunkActual]

Not to mention, Freedom of Information Act requests should be made available for no charge to the person requesting them, because our tax dollars are what pays the government employees, pays for the equipment and materials needed to complete those requests.

[@californigirl]

Not all documents in public institutions are public, and neither should they be.

[@hocrest]

The problem with that is idiots would get a $20 parking ticket for parking in front of a hydrant. Then to get "back at the man" they would do a FOIA for all paper and email correspondence from 2000 - 2024 with the word "ticket".

[@unclesunbro1577]

​@@hocrest you have to be pretty specific in a foia request. You can't just request "all government re ords" for example.

[@raymondfranko2894]

​@@unclesunbro1577This kid wasn't specific at all. He asked for all emails for about a six month period if I remember correctly. Not all emails for a select few people, but all emails for the entire university faculty and staff.

[@TheSilverSphincter69]

ITS CALLED "FREEDOM" OF INFORMATION ACT...MAIN WORD IS FREEDOM !!!!!!!!!!!!! LAWSUIT!!!!!

[@patrickbodine1300]

FREEDOM. ...shall not be infringed.

[@derekelliott6098]

Its called your a kid with a 1 year old youtube account who comments in all caps like a petulant. Oh, since it's at State level, it's called FOIL with an L... And L as in you are a loser.

[@ronrollins381]

I have seen this action before when someone makes a very broad request with no limits or focus. The law does not allow the school in this case to assume what the FOIA question is or narrow the focus, just answer the FOIA request, questions of the FOIA are not allowed. It is the responsibility of the requestor to prepare a clear FOIA so they get the information they are requesting without bunch of other stuff they really do not want and have to pay for.

[@EssensOrAccidens]

They should get access to everything they ask for, at no cost. It is all electronic, no need for fees. Time spent collecting the information is nominal in the digital age.

[@f4ephilosophy691]

@@EssensOrAccidens Send me your SSN and DOB Jeff, are you to dumb to realize that is what you are advocating for? Send it coward.

[@tomstone123]

​@@EssensOrAccidens while our personal data protection isn't as strict as in Europe with the GDPR. But institutions still are required to protect our private information. I took a look at the actual FOIA request. It requested all emails, documents, and attachments from between 01/21/2023 to 02/22/2024 from multiple redacted emails. They request all email sent to, from, CC, and BCC to those emails. These are emails tens of thousands of students sent to the school administrators. Totaling 59,000 emails. The school can't just hand all the emails over. They have to actually go through each email, look at every document, and attachments and manually redact things like people's address, phone numbers, social security numbers, financial aid info, or any other personal identifiable or sensitive private information before cataloging and submitting for the FOIA request. This is a huge labor intensive task that someone working for the school would have to complete. Imagine if they just handed everything over without first processing the data. Think about how easy it would be to for scammer to just submit a FOIA request for all emails from the school for a whole year and just scan through it for things they can use for identity theft.

[@stevenobrien557]

​@SNZoarAxidNS you have no idea what you are talking about

[@marsharichmond165]

Individual citizens should not have to pay for information that is public and should be available freely as such!

[@Entropy512]

One ENTIRE year of emails from FOUR people is a massive amount of information to sort through. Each of those needs legal review to ensure there is no PII contained in them (FOIA does not give you access to PII). That's a lot of labor. This isn't a small request, the scope of it is enormous.

[@WrknOnLvnTheLvn]

It's an office 365 search that might take 8 hours

[@johaquila]

A news article says that according to the university, the FOIA request covers 59,000 emails. That seems unexpected given that the request is only for certain emails (those matching certain keywords) to or from 4 email accounts. However, depending on the nature of these accounts (which are redacted from the letter shown at 0:34), for a large university this does not seem impossible. I have a hunch that this could be related to admissions procedures and that the FOIA request covers basically all admissions-related emails from prospective students. Or something similar related to exams. Either way, it would obviously be very important for the university to carefully redact every single email in order to avoid breaching privacy rights of students involved.

[@heathercloete7450]

Why on earth should a person be charged? These people do not want him to have these documents. Why??? Disgusting!!!

[@bobroberts2371]

Because they want 59,000 e mails that will take 2,000 hours ( see time 039 ) to collect , review , redact personal information and compile.

[@jaystrickland4151]

These are emails. They would need to be reviewed and redacted.

[@CharlesFreck]

@@bobroberts2371 You just love licking the boot don't you? Replying to every single comment? FOIA is a legal requirement. You are required to be able to hand over that information in a timely and reasonable manner. If they can't, they've already broken the law no matter what.

[@bobroberts2371]

@@CharlesFreck Seems you are resorting to the sovereign citizen boot comment because that is all you have. What would be a reasonable time frame to collect , review and remove personal information in 59,000 e mails? Should the school have on staff say 30 people just siting around waiting to process such a large volume of information requested?

[@CharlesFreck]

@bobroberts2371 not my problem. It's their responsibility to be able to comply with a reasonable expense. The fact is, they could've asked for clarity, or explained the conditions they were under. But no, instead they just quote an unreasonable amount. That's not an attempt to comply with FOIA.

[@punky796]

I disagree with jowl man, the "cost" of this information to an American citizen shouldn't even be one cent. And, it's always funny when GVSU has such main character syndrome that they pull stuff like this. Do what you're told and provide the information to which you don't have the right to ransom for cash.

[@My-Pal-Hal]

It should cost you something. Time is money. And taking time away from other things, shouldn't be free. SHOULDN'T BE THE COST OF A HOUSE !!! But not free.

[@Sakja]

It probably should be $84.

[@pbr4814]

Question ... so who should pay the costs/salaries of the employees having to "acquire" this info? Are YOU willing to pay their salaries? Are YOU willing to work for free? Just asking ...

[@Bill-im6nt]

@@pbr4814 They are not asking for the creation of the documents, just access to them!

[@Adam-je2cp]

@@pbr4814 they are already there working, its not like if no one if requesting info they are off work and not being paid

[@BlueBearOne]

They are guilty of something!!!

[@abcusa123mich]

This is why I'm fed up with most news agencies. The most basic question, of what was the actual request goes unaddressed. A typical worthless news report.

[@HealthWyze]

That's actually irrelevant. All that matters is that someone's rights are being trampled upon. There's no justification for it under any circumstances, so the particulars don't really matter. What matters is that the cronies are not doing their jobs and are performing criminal activity, which is almost certainly to hide their previous criminal activities. The news agency could report more if the information were not being illegally censored. Everything else is just conjecture, until the documents are exposed.

[@abcusa123mich]

@@HealthWyze The request does matter, if it was for 1000s of records that had to be individually redacted the costs may make sense.

[@HealthWyze]

@@abcusa123mich There's a waffling boot licker in every crowd scheming to be a petty tyrant himself. So which school system or governmental agency do you work for?

[@ImprovmanZero]

I don't care how much paperwork you need to edit it shouldn't cost more than the average yearly salary of 2 Americans. For that price you can hire a team of people for specifically this task

[@bobroberts2371]

Care to look at the time estimate at vid time 039 ?

[@alexarzamendi9475]

2 Americans? Anyone educated and not lazy makes at least 85-90K. If they don't, they have failed miserably at life

[@wawabbit]

@@alexarzamendi9475 Haha. Wow.

[@ImprovmanZero]

@@alexarzamendi9475 I make significantly more than the minimum in my area and I make no where near that. Did I simply not work hard enough or am I not smart enough for you?

[@alexarzamendi9475]

@@ImprovmanZero bruh, if you ain't making at least 80K on a regular job - you ain't working hard enough. Shit, my girl is a nurse and makes 85-90K working 3 days a week. You have no excuse other than being lazy

[@vallejoborncalihasbecomeal9022]

This is what your government, those public servants who work for us, do when they want to cover up stuff!

[@MarkStockman-b4j]

"In a mature society, the terms 'civil servant' and 'civil master' are semantically equal." -Robert A. Heinlein

[@vallejoborncalihasbecomeal9022]

@MarkStockman-b4j ..."There are men, in all ages...who mean to governn well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters....They think there need be but little restraint upon themselves....The love of power may sink too deep in their own hearts...." --Daniel Webster

[@ianbattles7290]

Land of the free, *for those who can afford it.*

[@johnbell8011]

GV has something huge to cover up…definitely needs an audit by the Feds on why this happened.

[@Tommy-rf9sw]

$84k is administration cost, goes directly into the pocket of a person.

[@alisonviscosi5518]

Absolutely disgusting!

[@arnesste000]

File suit .

[@AndieJ32209]

Time for a major lawsuit!

[@randyearles1634]

the university will spend twice that on their lawyer fees

[@derekelliott6098]

LOL. Show me a lawsuit in any circuit, federal or Supreme court that someone won based on FOIA or FOIL fees. I have my PACER account open. When you provide a case, Ill read it.

[@jaystrickland4151]

If they had the evidence for a law suit they would not be fishing with a Freedom of information request.

[@AndieJ32209]

@@jaystrickland4151 The lawsuit is for making it formidable, if not downright impossible, to get the information to which they are entitled. Making it extremely costly and difficult is a way for crooks to prevent people to access to information that should be accessible to the public.

[@SuperAmazingJared]

​@@jaystrickland4151 ...no? you do a FOIA request to get adequate information about things and get receipts on a matter. Also, it's not clear that they're trying to sue, they have a right to public information, especially something that might include themselves in an ongoing investigation? Clearly they wouldn't be trying to obfuscate getting the information if they weren't concerned about people getting access to it.

[@Advent154]

They are government papers, all FOIA requests should be free

[@chad872]

let me guess you're also in the crowd that thinks taxation is theft?

[@Advent154]

@chad872 no, but the taxs are way to high and the government needs to loose a lot of people that don't do anything. Go into a government office 80% of them are doing nothing.

[@chad872]

@@Advent154 80%? I want you to google "Annual Survey of Public Employment & Payroll (ASPEP)" and tell me what you learn...

[@chad872]

@@Advent154 My replies get deleted when i cite actual data... Education, hospitals, and police protection are the largest government employment categories by huge orders of magnitude... so your 80%* is complete nonsense... I think when you're THAT wrong on topic prolly wise to take a step back and be like maybe i should do a little more reading and less commenting ya?

[@cliffowens3629]

They don't WANT you to know.

[@BeardMan01]

Just sue them, what they're doing is borderline illegal and they can be forced to comply and reimburse you for your costs by the courts. It's been done before, it can be done again.

[@GoonyMclinux]

Its not borderline anything, its illegal.

[@raymondfranko2894]

@@BeardMan01 The judge will laugh at the kid for requesting 59,000 emails and expecting to only pay $100. The law is written so that the information is made public, with allowable redactions. Each email would need to be read to determine what if anything needs redacted, then redactions have to be made, then notations on why the redactions have been made have to be added. Or, the kid could tailor his request the emails that he is actually interested in.

[@stevenobrien557]

​@@GoonyMclinuxincorrect

[@Bigrignohio]

Oh no! THOUSANDS of emails? If only there was a function to search through them. /s

[@bobroberts2371]

59,000 thousand of them that need collected, reviewed, personal information redacted then complied.

[@AvoCattoTV]

​@@bobroberts2371Personal information redacted? No. You clearly don't understand what you're talking about, Mr. Two first names and numbers.

[@bobroberts2371]

@@AvoCattoTV Why don't you want personal information redacted? I guess you would be OK with your info being out there so scammers can steal your identity. As for my screen name, go Nom De Plume your self. . .

[@jaystrickland4151]

They did that this is the result of searching through the emails. A university with 25,000 students is going to have millions of emails over the course of the year.

[@Hmoney0]

@@AvoCattoTVjust report the obvious criminal

[@zeroenna8554]

They are intentionally choosing the most expensive process, and I guarantee that they are trying to bill her for multiple staff members wages to "process" her request.

[@neilkurzman4907]

How many documents did he ask for?

[@zeroenna8554]

@@neilkurzman4907 she was requesting emails for an undisclosed purpose. Unless her request covers millions of emails and some law requires them to be printed on paper, $84k sounds like 4 or 5 peoples wages for a week plus time pulled from other university business.

[@tiagoshade]

Let’s throw a GO FUND ME and raise that 80K

[@sniperrecon676]

“Agencies have a right to charge for their time and efforts” you mean like what my taxes are supposed to be for?

[@politicsuncensored5617]

Is this what they call transparency in government? Shalom

[@derekelliott6098]

Well, a private school is not "government" but go on.

[@sgtpepperz25]

They need to put government officials in jail.

[@mr.sharpie2206]

This is a college doing this, not the government. Grand Valley State University is the one saying it will cost that much. It said that right in the video but you didn't watch did you.

[@stevejones9062]

This is a red flag to criminal activity

[@jeremyashford2145]

Sue the school and get the FOIA as disclosure.

[@KD-lb9bg]

CORRUPTION. Contact the Institute for Justice.

[@taradufour2187]

I remember when we helped children and didn't treat them like crap! Someone help this child and screw the university!

[@kjpcgaming9296]

He's not a child. Children don't go to university fgs. He's a grown damn man that doesn't want to appear on camera.

[@WillW91]

Government agencies are already being paid to do their job, foia fees are double taxation.

[@paulbankard1525]

Except that most government agencies employee contractors to manage their Information Systems. Contractors do not work for free.

[@earltealjr6334]

Government agencies have a RIGHT to CHARGE for THEIR TIME, 🤔🤔🤔um, say WHAT NOW; they are already GETTING PAID for their TIME, and they GET PAID for EVERYDAY they WORK🤔🤔🤔🤔

[@RangerHouston]

Why do US citizens have to pay out of pocket for FOI requests anyway? _We pay taxes._

[@Missunderstood103]

Of course they r pricing him out. Because no one is stopping them. It is the worst form of exclusion. Economic. I'd file to open an investigation to see how many others they have done this too and exactly who enriched themselves or shut down investigations due to over billing/cost irregularities. Once again, DOJ- where the @#$& are you?

[@gemgal711]

Next step is the attorney general

[@derekelliott6098]

AGs dont control FOIL or FOIA. Next.

[@gemgal711]

@@derekelliott6098 they direct those that are supposed to follow the law to do so

[@williammurray1341]

Suggests the right question was asked. Now, local news, will you take up the challenge?

[@patmcbride9853]

They seem to misunderstand the "FREE" part of "freedom". If they have the "freedom" to charge for access to information we paid for already, WE should be able to charge them for asking us for any information.

[@MrManAmong]

No, they shouldn't be able to "charge for their time." They can send an email to anyone for free, right? We all know how to search key words, right?. It's literally that simple. They do this so that poor folks - the ones that get taken advantage of the most - can't get the documents necessary to hold government employees accountable. FOIA requests shouldn't cost anything. Period.

[@stevenobrien557]

They already suggested how to narrow the search and they have to be checked to secure other people's private information first.

[@regularprepperguy]

"Government agencies have a right to charge for their time and services." Umm. Excuse me. Doesn't the government employees get paid by tax dollars? And aren't these employees' jobs to service the public? So you want me to pay your salary, pay for your supplies, and also pay you for doing what you are supposed to do, service the public!

[@MikeMcKinlay]

FOIA needs to be free and it needs to be illegal to charge anything

[@terrancecloverfield6791]

Sure ....the information is free but preparing the information for consumption shouldn't be free. For example, I want a copy of all your utility bills from the past 20 years. I'm not paying for you for the information, I'm paying for the time you need to search the entire house, maybe go to your provider to also request a copy, find all the papers, sort them, scan them, make sure it's ADA compliant, then you release it to me in both a paper form and a digital form. On the other hand, if I'm just asking for last month's utility bill, no charge.

[@jaystrickland4151]

You do that in your state I ain't paying for an 18 year old to go on a fishing trip in mine.

[@t1m3f0x]

@@terrancecloverfield6791 The deference is that you don't own @MikeMcKinlay's utility bills.

[@pvshka]

@@terrancecloverfield6791 just publish shit online

[@willlawson6126]

There's spmething they don't want the public to see

[@Tryp-j9d]

BAN REDACTIONS!!!

[@timrosencrans7955]

Thank you for voluntarily sending everyone in the world your Social Security number, and all personal information. Your not thinking this through.

[@Fujoshi1412]

@@timrosencrans7955or medical history

[@derekelliott6098]

@@timrosencrans7955 And where his kids go to school, and that there's no huns registered to his address, and there's a few nice ATVs, and his medical records. But hey, the dude's youtube account is 2 months old. He's barley old enough to watch TV, let alone use the internet

[@Cfomodz]

They charge for their time…. We pay them for their time. FOIA fees should be for the cost of the paper and additional expenses associated with the request, not their time at their hourly pay. That’s exactly what we pay them for already is to do that job.. “thousands of emails” is NOTHING compared to what they are going to have to provide in discovery and they won’t get to charge him the fees then. Also, separately, the thousands of emails is usually mb.. redacting them should be fairly automated and then a manual review is, if I hadn’t said this enough already, *their job*! Imagine showing up to work and having a customer come in, and they say they’re ready to order, and you tell them it’s going to be $2 for their burger, but they’re also going to need to pay you $2 for your time. Like… you’re on the clock. Your job is to make their food, and you’re asking for $84,000 to make food for the people who it’s your job to make food for… 😅 Also, redaction isn’t necessary in most documents that are even allowed to be requested (or more accurately, required to be provided, as you’re allowed to ask for whatever you want), so those emails should be excluded from the request (which they are not allowed to charge to go through and do) and the remainder shouldn’t need to be redacted that heavily/manually. It’s not like you can just FOIA everyone’s medical records and most of it needs redacted. We’re talking about documents that are documents that are, by definition, not private.

[@freepanda1553]

Wow , these public servants must really have something to hide !

[@joeearley3351]

It's a scam and these government criminals should be held accountable and go to prison. Could be the information involved corrupt criminal activity.

[@PrayingPanda]

"Thousands of emails".... like the investigator isn't going to search by key words... This is probably why people are investigating.

[@jaystrickland4151]

Thousands of emails have the key word mate. The kid should narrow his request.

[@PrayingPanda]

@jaystrickland4151 you do realize you can make keywords specific, right? Then you can go from there based on sender and recipients.

[@stevenobrien557]

​@@PrayingPandayou do realise they already asked him to narrow the scope of the search?

[@PrayingPanda]

@stevenobrien557 narrow or not, it doesn't cost 84k. You do know that's almost double the average American YEARLY salary right??

[@stevenobrien557]

@@PrayingPanda so a wild goose chase manually searching through over 20K emails for people's private information because of unnecessarily broad search parameters should cost how much, exactly? Do you realise how much each HIPPA violation alone would cost them?

[@k3w1b3an5]

Some state employee has to work 3 hours overtime to get these records.

[@enclave315]

Yeah 3 hours of overtime not 3 years worth

[@cattigereyes1]

Justice? Sorry the system is pay to play only.

[@johnthomas1422]

What they said was, "sue, because we aren't giving you anything," that is what charging someone $84,000 for something that they have the right to means.

[@JessyFinch]

Public records should be 100% free and available upon demand within 24 hours .

[@bobroberts2371]

Look at time 039, the estimated time to collect, review, redact personal information and compile is just under 2,000 HOURS to process 59,000 e mails. This is 13 people working 8 hr a day for a MONTH.

[@JessyFinch]

@@bobroberts2371 Hilary Clinton could process them all in 15 seconds. Control, alt , delete

[@bobroberts2371]

@@JessyFinch I thought she wiped the server .. . with a cloth. . . .