Italian Forces in the First and Second Battles of El Alamein

[@scottgrimwood8868]

What an incredible presentation! Giulio's knowledge of the Italian military in World War 2 is amazing and he busted alot of myths about the Italian army in North Africa. I really appreciated hearing about how Italy views El Alamein since the war and the efforts to memorialize the dead.

[@Italian_Military_Archives]

Thank you Scott!

[@garyarmitage9359]

Pascucci's charge was remarkable. He led a small group of M Tanks against the Shermans and broke their charge. His men had wrapped the turrets of their tanks with tracks and sandbags. The British found his body in his burned-out command tank and notified the Italians after the battle. The charge of his company had bought time for Ariete to withdraw in good order and fight on. Pascucci received the Italian Medal of Valor in Gold Posthumously. I don't remember the exact details anymore, but it was a heroic action. Battlefront miniatures has a model of him and his tank in small scale and a detailed account of the action.

[@kingscarbine]

Great stuff. I've been fighting the myths and defending the Italians in North Africa for a long time and it's great to see researchers setting the record straight. I would love to see the same done regarding Italian East Africa.

[@WW2TV]

That's a good idea for some future shows

[@Italian_Military_Archives]

@@WW2TV East Africa week!

[@aldolamberti3855]

Thanks so much !

[@anselmdanker9519]

Thank you for doing justice to the Italian armed services in North Africa . Very interesting insight so Mr Churchill 's greek adventure in 1941 is followed by Mr Mussolini 's Russian adventure in 1942 🤣🤣 it didn't come up in my reading of Barrie Pitt's Crucible of War . Leandro Franchi - amazing story. Thanks. Monty does not have the option to pull back.Churchill needs a victory. If he blundered , Churchill would have sacked him ! So it was not the caution of Monty that delayed the pursuit but the hard fighting of the Italian army that delayed the 8th Army. Great insight .Thanks. Was the British General John Harding of the 7th Armoured or Horrocks - who met General Fratini of Folgore.

[@steventhorson4487]

The Italian. 90 millimeter artillery/anti- tank/ anti-air craft piece 👌 was outstanding!!

[@adambrooker5649]

Thanks for promoting the brave Italian soldiers

[@aldolamberti3855]

Thanks you so much !

[@KevinJones-yh2jb]

A great presentation by Giulio, always a pleasure to watch his shows. He puts to bed the myth we have about how poor the Italian military was, which is not true. He shows are enthralling, and his excellent knowledge, thank you Giulio and Paul

[@Piper44LMF]

An Excellent Stream. After reading so many different books on the African theater over the span of 50 years Giulio brings a fuller story that rectifies how it was possible for the Afrika Korps could of achieved so much over a 1 1/2 year period. The stories of the Italians surrendering or running away because of the 8th Army's encounter with "Colonial Troops" did stain the bravery and determination of the troops that followed. Giulio I love the work you have been doing along with Parabellum to bring many of these truths to light.

[@Italian_Military_Archives]

Thank you for the kind words!

[@TheAngelobarker]

A large part of the experience is overblown. I.e. the 2nd Libyan division fighting on. Often the colonial troops fought ferociously like at cheren. The problem was poor command, plan and supply, meant for some it was surrender/run or annihilation. Loyalty was in from worst to best probably Ethiopian troops, Libyan troops, Somali troops, then Eritrean troops. But still some from each fought like lions. Imperialism sucks but don't let the Brits let you think they weren't brave.

[@1089maul]

Woody/Giulio. GREATV presentation . Thank you. I know I am biased but I do think Giulio has a lot more to offer. Bring him back! Bob

[@WW2TV]

No doubt!

[@georgecooksey8216]

Great presentation and discussion. Thank you.

[@davidlavigne207]

It was refreshing, as I watched the recorded presentation, to hear from an Italian historian the Italian viewpoint of El Alamein. Giullio presented us his conclusions from a well studied and researched subject. The figures of the casualties showed what a real slugfest El Alamein was and one might gather that the many Commonwealth and Allied killed and wounded were caused by Italian weapons. Their bravery can now be in no doubt. Another take away from me was the care and efforts of General Paulo Caccia Dominioni to recover the remains of the many Italian MIA. Such an officer I would follow to my death had I an opportunity to serve with him. I was very moved by this presentation as a veteran and as a human being. Absolutely superb and informative.

[@Italian_Military_Archives]

thank you David!

[@vincenzospezzano6912]

Excellent contribution! Grazie mille. Thank you very much for this detailed analysis of the Battle of El Alamein. Thanks to you, unknown stories of Italian soldiers in the Second World War are being discovered.

[@philbosworth3789]

Another great presentation from Giulio & WW2TV. Its about time these old stories of the Italians being cowardly and retreating faster than they advanced are being put in the bin where they belong.

[@TheVigilant109]

Wonderful presentation by Giulio. Excellent illustrations and wonderful research. I learned a lot today. Look forward to Giulio's next episode. Many thanks

[@danielefabbro822]

A funny fact about the Italian colonial troops, specifically the Ascari, is that they was extraordinarely loyal and capable soldiers. Well trained and with high morale. So loyal that the last one show up to join Italian forces during our intervention in Somalia during the '90s. He said he had sworn "to the Kingdom, to the King and the Dux of Italy a sacred oath". He was rewarded with a field promotion to marshall and was later licensed with honor. After all, he was very old at the time, if I remember correctly, he was at his 80s years of life.

[@andreadimatteo1036]

in Libia non c'erano truppe coloniali. I libici arruolati nei reparti libici non erano coloniali. Una legge del 1939 aveva concesso a tutti i libici la cittadinanza italiana e la Libia costiera era considerata territorio metropolitano, ai libici facenti parte delle forze armate italiane furono concesse le stellette proprio per evidenziare questo cambiamento di status. Di conseguenza tutti i reparti libici persero la denominazione di "coloniali" e furono denominati semplicemente "libici" durante la seconda guerra mondiale. Gli ascari a cui lei si riferisce erano dell'Africa Orientale, Eritrea, Etiopia e Somalia e non furono mai schierati durante la seconda guerra mondiale in Africa Settentrionale.

[@Chiller01]

My father was in the 15th US Air Force stationed near Foggia in 1944-45. He had stories of ex Italian soldiers working on the base. He was impressed by how affable and competent they were. I think he had some stories about the local young women as well but we weren’t privy to those.

[@davidlavigne207]

😉 As many a WW2 veteran might have said....."How 'bout it?" Thanks for sharing.

[@morganhale3434]

Loved the show! Finding other perspectives of these great events is always rewarding. I hope you can find more from the French, Italian, German, Japanese, and Indian point of view. Your work with New Zealanders, Australians, and Canadians along with American and British views is wonderful.

[@paoloodello3439]

Many compliments to all. Fantastic presentation and high quality chat room!

[@curtiswebb8135]

Thank you. Excellent. Got to get home to relax...Got a cigar and a couple of beers...I'm a multi Tasker. I'm still at work.Thank you again.

[@milanoarte4562]

Giulio is amazing, as always, lot of knowledge and details.

[@1439241]

Absolutely brilliant lecturer, I learnt so much more about El Alamein that I never knew. Thank you so much 👍🏻

[@lollypop333100]

2 rather spectacular movies about the Italian participation at El Alamein...a fifties b/w movie "Divisione Folgore" with young Terence Hill ( Mario Girotti ) and a sixties big screen movie " Battle of El Alamein - Koningstiger" from Giorgio Ferroni...both about the Folgore paratroopers in the South front during the battle...

[@michealohaodha9351]

"Divisione Folgore" is excellent! 'El Alamein- Line of Fire' is another worthy if more recent film too

[@richarddenny5340]

great presentation Giulio dispelling old stereotypes. Your information aligns with Brian Sullivan, Ian Walker and Walter Zapotoczny, three competent military historians who like you, write the unvarnished truth.

[@phaking2409]

Victors always write the accounts with a skew to them looking good.

[@phaking2409]

I have a Zia Rosetta in Italy who’s husband died in Africa he would go into the British Camps and steal bombs and mines to fight the British, I have seen pictures of him he was an officer feeding a small African boy, my dad said when the American bombers flew there were so many planes that blocked out the sun, but still 2 Italian fighters went up to do their duty.

[@grantamos6299]

Great presentation, knew it would be good when I saw Guilio's name on the screen. Speaking for the U.S. english speaking part of the world, the European's (And most countries really) absolutely put us to shame in terms of speaking more than one language. Sadly I feel that it is intentional policy in most state's public school districts. I doubt that has really changed from my time in school. Hopefully one day we will get it together.

[@mathewkelly9968]

1:24:29 I dont know if the Italians where on the wrong side of history , but if they where they get a pass for coming to their senses , which some Axis powers never did until the very end if then .

[@nickhomyak6128]

Thank you for this; grew up in an Italian neighborhood, some of my friends fathers were POWs from North Africa, I was a of Rusyn-Uke Always fascinated that born less than 5-years after end of WW2 that Italy was an enemy, my Uncle Frank was severely wounded in North Africa, fighting Ities, French and Germans. Remember no one wants to die; especially in some horrible places; he is forced to be, inspired or demoralized, according to the advantage and opposition.

[@leoroverman4541]

I think it's been overlooked that Libya was in fact an Italian colony. That and the fact that my family lived in Benghazi between 56 and 63. I mentioned my dad was in the ME in 1935/36 brining up mines for the defence of the Egyptian border. The Italians had been in the country since 1912, which meant they had a foothold in the country when they started the Eritrean campaign, but to get there, they would either have to traverse Egypt, Sudan etc. that conflict is certainly one of the forgotten ones but it meant that the British and Italians did know each other quite well. My dad never underrated the Italians.

[@lorenzor2555]

Also my family (my grandfather, grandmother, their sons, included my mother) used to live in Bengasi, but from the early 30s till 1940. My grandfather was an italian engineer and entrepeneur and was captured in 1940 by the british (he stayed 7 years in India as pow), while his family managed to escape to Italy, in Milan, where i was born and live now

[@leoroverman4541]

@@lorenzor2555 I have to say that living in Benghazi for me as a child was a dream but the arab politicians just had to ruin it. Given the choice and the ability I would have liked to stay longer. God, Ghaddafi had a lot to answer for. Even his book made no real sense.

[@andreadimatteo1036]

no. Libya was not a italian colony during ww2. A law in 1939 declared Libya metropolitan area of Italy and italian citizenship was granted to libyan citizen.

[@leoroverman4541]

@@andreadimatteo1036 Ok not a colony but occupied by Italy, the effective difference is what? How many Libyan's actually made it to Italy? In effect Italy had a huge effect on Libya in an effort to vie with France for North African countries the aim being to edge Britain out. I make no judgement about that-but please don't try to excuse colonialism that way

[@davidluck1678]

Overall, Italy's airforce, Regia Aeronautica, and Navy, Regia Marina, turned in a credible performance - sometimes, more than credible - in WW2; the Army, poorly-led and ill-equipped to begin with, got off to a bad start against the Greeks in 1940 and vs. Brit/Empire forces in N Africa during the same timeframe....thereafter, performance improved noticeably: I have several first-hand accounts on my bookshelf from Brit/Empire soldiers who fought against German paratroops @ Cassino in Italy during 1944 and earlier against the Italians during their last stand in East Africa (Keren, 1941), and they all say the Italians were even tougher; in N. Africa, during their during the decisive Crusader battle (November-December 1941), the Savona (infantry) Division put up a solid positional fight, and the Ariete (armored) Division even more so, crushing the Brit 22nd Armored Brigade at Bir el-Gobi. At Third Alamein, the lightly-armed Folgore (paratroop) Division anchored the southernmost end of the Axis line and fought on for two weeks against overwhelming Empire air, armored, and infantry assaults until it was basically wiped out with 90% casualties.....Folgore is the only large unit on either side in WW2 to have been granted full battle honors - retention of weapons and colors - by the eventual victor. I could go on, but you get the point: the Germans didn't lose the war, or even lose in N. Africa because of the Italians. The Germans lost because the Chief Warlord - Corporal Hitler - was incompetent, squandering opportunities for strategic victory on every front.

[@steventhorson4487]

The Italian AB 41 armored car was the absolute 💯 finest 👌 in the world during the north African campaign!! The Germans loved it!!

[@billballbuster7186]

Very interesting presentation. It is a fact that the poor performance of Italian troops in both North and East Africa to relatively tiny British Empire armies, is a legacy that persists. Over 140,000 Italian prisoners taken in Operation Compass and a staggering 250,000 in East Africa. This is usually blamed on poor equipment, but British equipment was little better. The Italians did do a lot better under German control, so the previous poor showing could have been attributed to poor leadership. I did read one account of El Alamein which said the retreating Germans hijacked Italian transport that left many troops stranded on the battlefield.

[@WW2TV]

The Germans did indeed use Italian trucks. You don't mention though the Italian successes before the Germans arrived, because there were some

[@billballbuster7186]

@@WW2TV Yes there were and these were covered in the program. Like many I am not familiar with Italian war histories and little is mentioned in British accounts.

[@rogerjuglair8237]

Good job. I enjoyed this broadcast, as I found on this the experience that reported to me, my Uncle Marino Bonel, born on 1919 cannoneer with the 47/3 gun since 1941, first wkth Sabrhata and finally with Trento. He was taken prisoneer the 4th novembre 1942. Giulio i will be glad to contact you.

[@WW2TV]

Thanks for the nice comments and you can contact Giulio through his website

[@Italian_Military_Archives]

hi roger! please feel free to write me an email!

[@garyarmitage9359]

Wonderful Presentation!

[@GiulioBalestrier]

The north Africa campaign in ww2 was a war between two empires: the largest and well established British Empire and the young Italian Empire. The German involvement was a coincidental aid against a common enemy. In north Africa the war was more about colonies and natural resources rather than totalitarianism and democracy. Italy was in Libya before fascism came and the Italian colonial ambitions started just after the Italian unification of 1861. For an Italian, there's nothing wrong about being proud of the Italian bravery and fighting achievements in the north African campaign.

[@Desertrats43]

My grandad was there he was 8th army royal artillery

[@ianaustin1621]

My brother in law’s father fought against the Italians from Bardia, Torbruk and Alamein. In his book he spoke about how when they first come into contact with the Italians at Bardia after the assault finding the enlisted personnel living in squalid poor conditions. But the senior officers living in comfort in deep bunkers with bags packed perfumed and waiting for capture. He wondered how anyone would be expected to fight with such poor leadership. Also the equipment they had was of excellent quality. Machine guns, field telephones, flack guns etc. He said the defence of Torbruk was aided by all this captured equipment. His personal machine gun at Torbruk was a Austrian Schwarloze gun captured during WW1 by the Italians he said he loved it.

[@Baskerville22]

Many Italian POWs were incarcerated in Australia. They had an easy time there, often doing unsupervised work on farms. Many returned to live in Australia after the War. I'm pretty sure that the 34,000 Alied POWs (1.16.00) listed here from that battle is a mistake. Wikipedia gives the Allied Casualties/Losses as 13,560. That makes sense as the Axis was in no position in that battle to take prisoners. Somehow, the 34,000 Axis POWs figure was mistakenly duplicated in the Allied column. .

[@richarddenny5340]

even today some folks simply do not care for Italians and will denigrate them any chance they get. the critics of course are meaningless

[@aldolamberti3855]

I am an Italian born in Asmara (Eritrea) in 1945. When I attended high school, every year they chose some students to make them the ''guard of honor'' on the tombs of the first Italian ace of the Second World War, Mario Visintini and the Commander of the Ascari troops, General Orlando Lorenzini. The first with 16 victories, one probable and 34 planes destroyed on the ground alone or with a gregarious ,while trying to recover his gregarious crashing on the Mount Bizen surrounded by thick fog .The second decapitated from the blows fired at him by the Matilda tanks who were advanced towards Cheren, while at the head of his Ascari he attempted an improbable suicidal cavalry charge against the Matilda armored vehicles, a ''premeditated'' suicide. Well, as I was saying, we stood guard at the two tombs when I saw them approaching the one who seemed to me to be a former Ascaro, limping but proud. He stood in front of the two tombs and gave the Military salute. I was amazed and timidly asked if he would come to pay homage to the two fallen only on the day of commemoration. He answered me with proud but determined eyes. His response was this: ''no, I come every day. The day I no longer come I will be dead''. Sorry for the intrusion into this excellent channel but I wanted to tell a story to loyal people like you! For many left-wing Italians these stories sound like blasphemy!

[@spaniardsrmoors6817]

"Not only should Tunisia have exploded the myth of Hitler's military acumen, it should have discredited the idea that Germans fought better than the Italians, since Messe's 1st Italian Army held out longer than Arnim's 5th German Army and the DAK, even both groups had about six divisions and faced roughly equal Anglo-American forces. Indeed, Hermann Goring division was the first to be scattered on 7 May, DAK the next to break and surrender on 9 May, with the Italian Spezia division closing the gap created by the German collapse and watching still combat-efficient German units march off into captivity on 11 May. Whether it is significant that the German 90th Light division was the first to collapse in Messe's 'Italian' Army, there is no doubt that the Italians fought well and held out longest in Tunisia." (The Second World War: The German War 1939-1942, Jeremy Black, Page 265, Ashgate, 2007)”

[@phaking2409]

Is the trentia like the triarei I know I misspelled but the Triare where the old timers of the the Roman legion and if they are called in that was bad news for the Romans, but they always turned the tide to victory

[@stevenwoolley2727]

Fascinating account. Are there any accounts of ww2 from the perspective of the Italians? I came across on Amazon the book, Luck was Lacking but Valour was not, by Ralph Ricco. Has anyone read this and would you recommend it?

[@WW2TV]

I have not read it sorry. I'm sure there are Italian accounts, but I don't have any specific recommendations

[@mathewkelly9968]

13:57 all these are decent if not respectable units , just the woeful equipment lets them down

[@mathewkelly9968]

38:45 Italy is hardly the only country that bad political decisions have adversely affected the military . Australia's recent submarine fiasco , the 57 UK white paper , the Argentine invasion of the Falklands just off the top of my head , im sure I could compile a massive list though if I tried

[@mathewkelly9968]

46:40 all of Italies respectable enough efforts on the battlefield in ww2 gets tarred with the brush of how badly their 2nd and 3rd rate divisions did in the opening north African campaign where 6th Australian and 7th Armoured rampaged through half a million men .

[@mathewkelly9968]

51:37 nothing to be ashamed about brave guys who did their duty against the best Division in this battle . If you told me 'oh yeh Mathew we're going to leave this perfectly good position and go attack those Australians over there who just captured that position' you'd at least get a dirty look .

[@RubinoffPrague]

If we are going to talk about the myth of the (comparatively) clean Italian conduct in the war (around 1 hr 26), we should probably include pre-war Italian crimes in Libya in the late 20s and 30s and in Ethiopia. That was pretty horrific, if not quite Nanking or certainly not the Holocaust.

[@WW2TV]

We did address the fact the Italian's record is not without some crimes, although as Giulio said, not on a massive scale

[@geridelbello4480]

of course, Italy was guilty of crimes during the Ethiopian war, and in Libya to eliminate the armed resistance against the occupation. Unfortunately this was the way of acting that all European nations used during colonialism. All nations that had colonies committed crimes against the colonized peoples, and the crimes committed by the French, English, Belgians or Spanish were no less serious than those committed by the Italians.

[@spaniardsrmoors6817]

“On June 7, 1942, infantry of the Italian X Corps saved Rommel’s 15th Brigade near Gazala, in North Africa, from otherwise certain annihilation. These and numerous other disclosures combine to debunk lingering propaganda stereotypes of the inept, ineffectual Italian armed forces and their allegedly inept commanders and supreme leader. That dated portrayal is rendered obsolete by a true-to-life account of the men and weapons of Mussolini’s War: Volume 1-The Triumphant Years.”

[@mathewkelly9968]

18:40 far from uncommon , ive seen sand bags on photos of Australian Centurions in Vietnam ........ funny thing that sense of self preservation

[@lollypop333100]

Very good photo's...the Italian Breda 30 machinegun was not bad at all as an automatic rifle, just like the French Chauchat...in fact all Italian design was good but their army was not up to date for a world war...

[@massimotorri4805]

Noi Italiani ci leviamo il cappello davanti alle divisioni Italiane che hanno combattuto ad El Alamein fino alla distruzione completa. W l'Italia.

[@phaking2409]

They had the Alpinie in Africa instead of going to Russia, I’ve seen some video of the night bombardment and in the flash you see the alpinie on the front lines with there distinctive alpine hats with a feather, folgori means lighting

[@yiliosfs]

Non confondere alpini con bersaglieri .... bersaglieri truppe d assalto con il.piumetto sull elmo.

[@phaking2409]

@@yiliosfsyes true but I’ve seen footage they where wearing their alpini hats, unmistakable not helmets and of course they were front line and the Germans behind them

[@fulviusinfabula]

The German soldier amazed the world, the Bersagliere amazed the German soldier...E. Rommel

[@GiulioBalestrier]

Why did the Axis' tanks keep attacking the enemy's bulge? In a condition of quantitative and qualitative inferiority, it would have made more sense to defend a new rear line and wait for the Allies to come forward.

[@frarevo]

Thank you like italian

[@fkafka64]

FERT

[@Slowbiker1957]

If the Italian's that bad how come .they held the British and Co long enough to allow the Germans to retreat, plus the Italian's lacked transport that's why so many Italian's where captured or surrendered