We need to ban Steve | Tweek Talks Episode 90

[@dubonkies]

Humility. Maturity. Class. Tweek, thank you for being such a gem in the smash scene. Whatever happens, wishing you nothing but the best in the future, and I'll always be rooting for you. Thank you, Tweek!

[@oscar5012]

his take on the Steve situation was so nuanced and thought out and I’m glad the others felt the same and even added more to it, this podcast always hits

[@MasterAbeer101]

​@@oscar5012 This is why I always look forward for Wednesday :)

[@TheBirdmon17]

Shut up you fake bot

[@CaptainFracture]

Ain’t no way you 🍆 riding Tweek so hard for having an opinion everyone else has 💀

[@sumtekiii3638]

Why do you gotta write a comment like a video essay

[@DrWavy-fq2qk]

T1 Tweek and TSM Leo is the only way this can be made right

[@lucamogliazzi4596]

Tweek talks, but Steve is silenced

[@na7ion199]

Tweek talks, Steve stumbles

[@deft1825]

Steve is cringe

[@joey5745]

I mean technically Steve was already silent lol, it made it hard to react to his F-Smash,

[@rasaunwashington9623]

And Larry Listens

[@somecyclist]

@@joey5745 it wouldn't matter you definitely can't react to that shit lol

[@aznkim1127]

Sad that all the big orgs are dropping players but I hope only the best for your future Tweek! Man truly is a grinder and deserves it all

[@konflicted1729]

God I hope this community survives even if it's a 100 player base I will be one of the 100

[@morgydee]

Itll survive smash is unkillable, people have and always will play for the love of the game

[@blaize7865]

Cant wait to be a top 100 player

[@Lerkero]

If Dabuz ❤️ and Smash 💥 have 0 fans 🙌 then I am no longer alive ☠️ People will still play smash, but much fewer people will play competitive smash if the money isnt there. Other games can probably come along and save things. I am hoping that Rivals of Aether 2 is successful enough to have a financially viable competitive scene

[@tomcampbell8934]

What a brave hero you are Ser Konflicted

[@TheQueensAce719]

I will play Smash Ultimate until the servers shut down and continue to play. Not everyone is a Steve enthusiast, so even if he does kill the competitive scene, he won't kill my love for this game.

[@Bwuas]

Another thing to note about Steve is the fact that when he gets hit, his animation looks the same regardless of what move he gets hit by, so visually, you can't even tell if he's in the tumble animation or not.

[@Tonjit41]

He also places walls and ceilings at will... kind of like placing an illegal stage wherever you want. We've banned slants before banning steve. It's silly.

[@Ironhide16]

Tweek is such a legend, I am glad that he's able to still keep rocking.

[@MasterAbeer101]

It's been quite a chaotic past few days for Smash, with the Steve Tech, BTS disbanding and many top players leaving their orgs such as Leo and Sonix and as of yesterday Tweek left TSM and I just wanna say I am positive that any big org will be lucky to have you Goat. Keep up the great work and I thank TSM for giving you such a wonderful opportunity to show your skills.

[@Clarkalicious]

When you guys review a tier list like this, ahead of time you should number the characters so you can quickly reference their placing for audio listeners. You did a great job of trying to keep us in mind, but frequently you'd want to make quick offhand comments about "Palu is too low, wolf is good" and for an audio listener I have to try and remember what Haz said 10 minutes earlier when he listed all of the characters which is impossible. If you had Palu labeled as 17 and it was *right there* when you glanced at her, I bet you'd be a lot more likely to say "17 for Palu is too low" which would be a lot easier to follow.

[@Keystone762]

Summit was my fav to watch ever. Across all games and tournaments. The skits, the couch, the competition all of it was amazing.

[@konflicted1729]

Final destination no items on charles forehead. It has a high ceiling.

[@Thecurseofsanity]

Tweek: "i love consistency!" *plays Sephiroth*

[@MPAzul]

😂

[@g3nj1]

Consistently not that good is still consistency. Just kidding. Seph is low-key S minus tier.

[@Left-sh1db]

This community will never die. We will survive. We will always watch and compete. We have survived before and we will survive again

[@dingo9696]

Ult wont survive this

[@Enidx10]

@@dingo9696it’s surviving. It’s the most popular “fighting” game on the planet, bar *none*

[@dingo9696]

@@Enidx10 the game itself will survive obviously. that is completely different from the competitive scene.

[@GottemGGs]

46:45 "most people think that Cloud is too high" you can thank Nairo for that haha, Cloud is MID!

[@trombonegamer14]

Or just like everyone who thought Cloud was high tier since forever until Sparg0 started kicking ass. Sparg0 is simply built different and it's funny that for byleth we acknowledge that Byleth isn't actually that good. Let it be known, sparg0 switches to Aegis for bad matchups. That is not the sign of a top tier lmao

[@Nathaniel_B122]

MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID!!!

[@Pedro-ho2xj]

​@@trombonegamer14 top tier doesn't mean you don't lose MUs

[@trombonegamer14]

@Pedro no but this very podcast has said multiple times that they consider top tier characters solo mainable. Cloud isn't if Sparg0, the premier Cloud player, occasionally has to switch to a top tier.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@trombonegamer14 Wtf is that logic? Many top players have secondaries, and sometimes both the main and secondary are viewed as top tier. Best example is Tea. His kazuya helps him in bad matchups, because pacman does have some bad matchups despite how good he is.

[@StephenSiu]

It's been a tough week for smash. But Tweek, I'm really glad you ended this podcast talking about the tier list cause I've never laughed that hard watching these. Marcus's expressions the ENTIRE discussion was just too funny, and the whole Diddy discussion. Thanks to Tweek and the whole podcast team for amazing content.

[@Iso_SSB]

Damn Tweek got dropped from TSM, hope he finds a home

[@cxg1]

thanks to the new steve tech everyone now knows what it’s like to use sephiroth’s side b

[@AshenDemon]

💀

[@seasonedcurlies9005]

LMAO

[@totalrandomness7200]

True!

[@Smoothcarries]

LITERALLY

[@andrebaxter4023]

You must be using it at close range instead of long range.

[@jakestout5489]

“We know why they put diddy as 12th” 😂😂😂 love that shit hahahha so true

[@ColdWeatherr]

@27:50 I lost last hit game 3 to a steve because he Anvil'd me mid Pit Upsmash months ago!! The tech isn't even too specific, it can happen through accidental/panic mashing which is what really can make it inconsistent to ban (in regards to banning just the tech).

[@trombonegamer14]

To be fair, multi hit smash attacks can be pretty inconsistent, he may have just popped out. I've tried the tech, and though it's not the hardest thing, it would be really random to get it on accident

[@RelytFTW]

it's a joy watching you in tournaments, hope you keep playing!

[@RicardoMango]

I love how Tweek was the first person that i see talking about the possibility to ask for Nintendo give a New Patch. That was the first thing that i thinked after get into this Steve situation. Everyone knows how Nintendo is hard to deal the majority of times, and the lack of communication. But is PAYED DLC character, the character with MOST REPs on tournaments, of the BEST SELLER GAMER of all time. Baning him should depreciate the own Smash propriety without a simple correction has a patch. I even thinked about the Pandemic situation that Tweek bring out. Big W take. I think is worth try reach Nintendo, because is the best case scenario if they fix the problem and maybe, maybe... even do new balance for other characters in the package too as they used to do.

[@JumperTL]

While I have gone from "you should absolutely NOT ban Steve" to "I dont care if he gets banned", it's not because of Phantom MLG. Mostly just because he is so hated for other reasons (0-death, minecraft, planking). But if he gets banned, the community will not stop complaining about other top tiers (mythra, kazuya, rob ect.), and we will not get the much improved and healthier meta that maybe someone think we will get after banning Steve. But banning Steve right now before fully understanding the tech, and before big tournements like Collision and Summit is a punch to the face for the people who have already gotten invited/registered

[@FuckingDracula]

Completely agree, I think it makes no sense to ban a character because of a tech that was only showcased in some twitter clips and never in actual tournament sets We don’t know how practical it is, we don’t even know if the Steve players will even use the tech. I’m not a fan of the character, but the sudden urge of the community to ban Steve just feels based on emotions to me

[@myoblivion420]

@@FuckingDracula Agreed, we should give it at least 1-3 months. If Steves are able to USE the tech and EFFECTIVELY get value from this PMLG then ban the character. We've seen so much Steve tech on twitter yet so much of the tech is never used because a lot of it is either to complex or useless/unnecessary. Plus the top Steve players barely 0-death you.

[@GameConnoisseur69]

15:50 when the best case scenario for your scene is a savior patch or new game it probably means you're fucked tbh

[@rohannambiar6564]

unless we ban

[@bobross3773]

The region breakdown was very interesting! Pikachu being so low is cause of Japan believing she wasn’t even top 25, and every region was low on cloud except for the US/Canada which was also very interesting. Would like to see a region tier list at some point too!

[@crrc77]

Lets give Smash some love right here and now people. I love this game since N64 and there is only one world for me and that is WITH it. The joy it brought me these years and coming years cannot be measured and i am so thankfull for everyone who shares the same joy. Bless you Sakurai.

[@BakingSoda4U]

30:45 Truer words have not been spoken.

[@BakingSoda4U]

25:44 This excerpt about Void and Nintendo is very enlightening as to how Smash devs view and approach what we know as "tech".

[@LunaireVT]

how fast I raised my hand for the diddy is better than pikachu question

[@goosnavslakovic4908]

I have to agree with Nairo just a tad on cloud. He's better than mid tier, but I think he's right that most people are just getting outplayed. Same goes for some other characters, including but not limited to Kazuya, but Sparg0 especially just outplays people. If you lose to him, 99.9% of the time it's because he's better than you. No question about it.

[@MJKeem_]

bruh nairo praying on stream was so funny ngl. but yeah, a severe skill issue by these players cuz aint no way cloud even sniffs top 5.

[@yurplethepurple2064]

Yeah Muteace talked about this, he said that people overrate characters like cloud/palu because they just refuse to not run into them

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@yurplethepurple2064 Palutena has so many great players, this character is objectively fantastic. Very simple to play, very few awful matchups, great edgeguarding and ledgetrapping tools.

[@JonnyJayKhan]

I think there are actually three gamebreaking Steve techs, I think you guys are talking about MLG or whatever its called which only works on moves that don't send him into tumble at low percent, but he has other techniques to cancel hit stun at any percent on any move.... it's pretty fucked and hopefully we can get an emergency patch on Steve (and Kazuya)

[@bcboik_luigi]

The Conker shirt on Haz?? Absolutely GOATed

[@botanicalabe]

In terms of banning characters, I think people did forget that people have discovered glitches and then were banned at majors. Joker had a glitch in doubles where he would gain Arsene meter if he was on a team with Pokémon Trainer and teams of PT and Joker were banned. Although not the same extent as banning a character in singles, it has been something that was done.

[@Fpl8646]

#BANSTEVE #THANKYOU

[@andrebaxter4023]

I agree with Marcus on Sephiroth. I think his placement is fine on the tier list. 25th. Not broken, but not weak either.

[@rmlgaming2091]

Summit 5 was probably the greatest Ultimate tournament of all time. RIP BTS 🙏

[@galaxystudios370]

rip bts

[@Weebfox]

Never thought I'd feel emotional watching a Tweek Talks but man, parts in this episode got me Thank you for everything to BTS for what they did to the community, and thank you Tweek and the podcast for always being so positive! Love listening to you guys every week, and I know we can bounce back from this all Finally, to contribute more to the conversation and to end on a more fun note, I think top 5 in order is Steve Sonic Joker Aegis ROB with Pika close 6th

[@sionbarzad5371]

37:12 ''It's not just that Yoshi is right there but also who is below Yoshi'' EXACTLY and this applies to other characters as well, I mean really, Pit is better than adult link? REALLY?

[@jonteguy]

I think if the tech is overcentralized or not doesn't matter that much, it is clear it is breaking a big part of Smash, that being how characters both deal with and confirm follow-up hits, *hitstun.* It is a 1f option with no cooldown and if you mess it up it doesn't even matter much for Steve, the risk-reward of this is so good for Steve it is *clearly* not intended. It breaks a core rule of Smash, hitstun. That alone is reason to get it/him out. "Oh but Shulk has menato" Yeah but it's on cooldown and he gets 1% of off a punish not minimum 25%. The tech is also not nearly as hard as people make it out to be, I did it within 15minutes and I do not play Steve, I was all for having Steve stick around until this tech. "Ban the tech instead." No? How are we going to enforce this? Wobbling from Icies and infinite cape was so obvious it was really easy to call out, but this tech will require tons of effort from TOs to make a call for. *Edit: Charles just mentioned this too, lmao.* *On-top* of this, players who play vs Steve will start to look out for this and lose some focus due to having this in their head "What if he does the tech? I need to be ready so I can call it out for a TO." It is not good, get rid of him until Nintendo/Bandai steps in and fixes it.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

...And now three pretty big tournaments happened since you made that comment, and there were no issues at all with the tech.

[@paulmelchiore510]

You need to do a follow up on the official tier list - feels like unfinished commentary

[@jonny7444]

Tons of people have talked about it

[@neverknowsbest.]

​@@jonny7444tons of people aren't tweek

[@Greedude]

@@neverknowsbest. real

[@fireatack]

I highly doubt Nintendo will ever update Steve. A major company that has to handle multiple major games (Zelda, Mario or potentially a launch soft for a new hard), if they say they aren't gonna develop Smash anymore, they won't. That is how a major company works. Banning Steve to get Nintendo sounds naive. I understand banning Steve to prevent damages to the community, but the other reasons, I don't agree.

[@AroundWayOther]

ty yall for the continued podcasts!

[@HeckW]

Ain't no way Void influenced shield drops out of ult

[@ponderingfox]

You all should DEFINITELY spend an episode making a tier list.

[@HisRoyalAirness]

You guys should have covered the mid to low tiers. Some of us connected with bad characters and struggle because of it. Show us some love man

[@psyduck8025]

Not calling it the Nintendo Switcharoo will be such a missed opportunity.

[@jamesmkay]

I think it would be smart to start throwing tournaments that get people excited. Like a heavy only tournament would be way fun to watch. Or a tournament with the top 30 “hypest” characters rated by the people to get people who aren’t playing involved more.

[@TheGlitchedUpGlitch]

lmao charles "what about banjo being in C-"

[@thesaxiest4480]

Honestly something that could be spicy is if either majors ran the main event or had a side event where half the roster is randomly banned. Would be interesting to see that play out

[@galxeviv9576]

I lowkey want to see this legal for 1 major just to see how meta defining this becomes

[@davidk4082]

The only one who could make use of this CURRENTLY is Acola.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

It didn't do anything.

[@digitalchamploo9129]

I think at the end of the day Smash is a game and a spectator event and if the tech is that much trouble logistically, has unfair advantages ON TOP of making the game less fun to play and watch for a majority of players/viewers then I think that’s worthy of a character ban I definitely feel for Steve mains though it's a shitty scenario. I’m sure they’d much rather have Steve not be stupidly busted so they can play the character they like

[@ghst7106]

Jumped on Chuck a bit much during this episode, so it was hard to explain some of what he was trying to talk about (might be because of his camera lag though) Glad the audio upload bug got fixed for the other platforms and I wish the best for all of you boys and can't wait for the next one!

[@tarunparavasthu4960]

Its crazy how much the panda/SWT fucked the scene. Panda was leading us into an era that felt really legitimate, with real Nintendo support and now a few months later orgs are leaving- hard to think that a successful SWT and Panda Cup wouldn’t have changed that.

[@DeRez19]

Exactly. We were SO FLIPPING CLOSE to a highly-marketable scene, and Dr. Alan ruined it all. I hate Panda. We'll never see this scene thrive.

[@markee3738]

@@DeRez19 nah blame vgbc. the ly fucked up the licensing process numerous times - first by negotiating with TOs before actually beginning the licensing process, and subsequently announcing the circuit only 2 months into the licensing process, and then by having no security at their premier swt events and making a very bad public response to someone that was able to expose the poor security (technicals) vgbc used alan and panda global as a scapegoat to divert attention from the fact that the swt crashing and burning was entirely their fault for rushing the licensing process. worst part is, it worked - everyone from panda has been laid off and doesn't have a job anymore, while players that were sponsored by panda - including people that had nothing to do with smash - were dropped, while they received millions in donations.

[@GoofballBTW]

Thank you guys for consistently reminding me of how cool this community is!

[@juanfernandez2198]

Tweek will bounce back even stronger just like he’s doing play-wise

[@extonjonas6820]

Maybe it is because I am trash but spargo is just godly, there is no way cloud is better than roy

[@hakirayleigh]

After Acola defending Steve with all his guts, I believe we are going to first East-West Schism in smash.

[@tasty4644]

What I don’t fully understand is the root cause if these events. Is smash just especially difficult to make profitable for orgs?

[@MerryBlind]

Most esports communities have support from the publishers of their game. Smash doesn’t get support from Nintendo.

[@GameConnoisseur69]

There is 0 reason for orgs to keep smashers that aren't melee/multi-game players like Leffen. Ulti isnt popular enough to warrant keeping Ulti only players anymore.

[@l.n.3372]

​@@GameConnoisseur69 How is ultimate not popular enough? The viewership is always consistently high. The attendance at tournaments is incredibly high (up until the Panda scandal at the end of last year, of course). And it's the highest selling fighting game of all time.

[@zeer7676]

@@GameConnoisseur69 Ult is more popular than melee, just that playing only smash is seen as too big of a risk.

[@pwnismaximus]

Hey guys, I think something is off with the Spotify ep -- I noticed it was only 28 min lol

[@iv624]

If the smash community and competitive scene do go to shambles i hope that there’s some small jungle hut hidden in the forrest that we call tweek talks still talking

[@SleepingChimes]

25:45 for shield dropping removal explanation

[@Reggicide]

Smash is timeless 💯. Happy with the roster and how far we’ve come

[@tthewalter]

The Spotify upload was cut short ~29 mins in

[@dansu1503]

If sometimes Tweek's Diddy feels worse than Sephiroth, it's because Diddy isn't holding banana 😆 real talk though, Tweek did carry Diddy to 12th. Total beast.Looking forward to the day Sephiroth overtakes though!

[@Jero1020]

Mark my words. Next console for Nintendo will come, then they will release an Ultimate deluxe version the same way they did for Mario Kart with eventually a fighter pass. We just need to hang on for some years before that happens. They don't need to do much, just patch Steve, put Waluigi or king boo in the rooster and some skins and let it roll. 70$ we'll pay it.

[@terminate_all]

You had me until you said waluigi...y'all honestly need to let it go, beyond broken record.

[@Jero1020]

@@terminate_all i honestly don't care which character Nintendo throws at us but it will be Nintendo trademark for ease.

[@minig5207]

I’ve been convinced ban Steve ✊

[@user-ml7vg8nt7l]

Rob is a good candidate for its just that love acting like he's only big character in the game as if it's unique feature exclusive only for him

[@geoffreypurcell]

lmao I just realized pink is the player pinkfresh I thought he was just buddies with tweek and didn't play

[@KevinCockerline]

"There they are" lmfao haz killed me with that one

[@andrebaxter4023]

I love Charles's optimism about the Smash situation. News to me that the Smash scene has been before as far as lack of sponsorship, but bounced back! Definitely boosts my confidence the pro scene can recover from this. I sincerely hope that it happens, for the good of those that have Smash as a career, and for my fellow fans of the game.

[@oscar5012]

to also add to Charles’ point, the tech ban rule states that if you’re right you get the win but if you’re wrong you don’t get it and with the tech not being 100% clear you’re spending too much time trying to decide on something that is unclear in a game that’s already as janky as hell. Collision had the opportunity to set the precedent and they screwed over the TO’s

[@Yvs8962]

Cant stand the argument to not ban Steve cuz “We didnt ban MK and he had better results and representation” and acting like we shouldnt ever consider banning a character until they do… Expecting the best character in a game with 83 characters to replicate the dominance and results of the best character in a game with 36 characters is so stupid… Not to mention MK has way more universal appeal than Steve. MK embodied a lot of what people like about Smash, even M2K said “He was the only character in Brawl that felt like a Melee character” so of course he had a massive player base. A lot of people would never touch Steve no matter how good he is because a large number of people find him insanely cringe and antithetical to what they like about Smash, hence why virtually no pre-existing top players switched to him (the only one who did got banned, he couldve been worse). And also Steve didnt release til over 2 years after the game dropped, so unlike MK people picking him up and choosing to play him was a matter of deciding if they were willing to abandon the characters they had been maining for years to play him, as opposed to being able to choose him as a main from the beginning. “Hes not over half of all Top 8’s like MK was” isnt a valid argument. Get this guy outta here.

[@Tatsugiriii]

Void really got shield dropping taken out. Smfh

[@jannomeeuwessen4886]

I wish you would have more special guests (Top players and commentators) on the Podcast, that'd be insane

[@interloc1290]

Screw it ill post it here too because I feel like it is a good idea. Hear me out. What about instead of an out right BAN more moderately sized tournaments like Coin Box simply train up the additional staff to monitor for Steve exploits and require replays of his matches. Then split the additional overhead cost as an entry fee among ALL the entrants who wish to play Steve? It will limit Steve play to only those who are committed to the character rather than tier riders looking to abuse exploits and should net to 0 additional cost for the organizers if they are careful about accurately calculating the additional overhead. For the Steve players if Steve ends up as dominant as Bayo or metaknight then SO many ppl will end playing him that it spreads the cost out. Steve players get their character. Everyone else gets a guarantee they will be protected against exploit abuse. Viewers get better matches to watch with likely more diversity Everybody wins

[@rerose9780]

This tier list does a good job in explaining the meta, sheik is high tier because she doesnt do well against most of the characters in s tier. Diddy is s tier because he does great against most top meta relevant characters.

[@kiritsuna]

I haven't thought about Steve's ban that way. I had forgotten what Nintendo said and now my stance changed. I rather risk it all and have Steve banned and hope for the best. If that situation happens, I can see a bright future for the scene

[@luigisuper4143]

Your opinion of the Steve ban is so based.

[@Lerkero]

One problem i have with the discussion about banning characters is that nobody has explicitly stated the conditions under which a character should be banned. Create rules for banning then enforce them when needed

[@BakingSoda4U]

The thing is, unlike YGO or Pokémon, banning characters isn't a common practice in most fighting games as they are usually pretty well balanced. Certain games allow you to use boss characters as they are, with no nerfs to balance them (SNK is infamous for that), but such cases are so evident that the ban is an unspoken rule even among casual players. Smash games enjoy of a certain degree of consistency when it comes to balance. Even melee Fox is not an oppresive presence in the metagame as it has been proven time and time again other high and top tiers have the tools to deal with him no problem. Considering this consistency, banning characters is not common practice for the smash community. That being said, we have precedent in the case of Brawl's Meta Knight. What put him on a tier of his own was the fact most of his tech allowed him to bypass the movement limitations of that game to the point nobody could actually answer back. He broke the game's basic rules, therefore he had to be banned. But that was a special case, and since it was a one-time thing, the community feels it is not neccesary to create a set rules for something that's an exception. Creating rules for something so unpredictable could also fire back: how can we prevent what the next broken thing will be? What if our current rulest does not cover such a situation? There's no easy answer for that. We can only act on a case-by-case basis.

[@benji6325]

Does anyone know if there is a similar discussion regarding the Steve tech/ban in Japan? I feel like they would have more influence on having the "best case scenario" of receiving an emergency patch if that's the case

[@Keystone762]

Our cause is just!

[@Donkne]

Really hope Nintendo realizes the passion in the Smash competitive scene and steps in to save it. Smash is the best game Nintendo has to offer, it would be dishonoring to not uphold it

[@myoblivion420]

Why do you people seriously believe Nintendo will do something? What dishonor? They don't care. Stop kneeling to these people that don't care about you nor the competitive smash community(heck maybe include the casuals).

[@Donkne]

@@myoblivion420 dang bro who hurt you?

[@myoblivion420]

@@Donkne Hurt? I would say more like... Shocked and surprised.

[@Donkne]

@@myoblivion420 I'm here for you bro

[@SoresanCrockxen]

If only Panda wasn't thrown under the bus we probably wouldn't be in this mess. But nobody wants to admit it.

[@MrBobxxl]

Im excited to see how a big part of the steve mains will just become kazuya mains now. :). Maybe we can ban him then next. :p

[@JadeZombie_ssbu]

The smash community will survive remember. Mango's quote even if I'm playing grands in the back of a 7 11 we will still be playing

[@poopsockhtx1668]

Another banger from our goat Gavinor “Olsononas” Tweek

[@poulanthrope]

That tier list discussion was interesting to see how people think. I don't think any of these guys have the right mindset for this. It's like watching someone ranking cards for the game War going "look the Ace isn't S-tier, it loses to a trash tier 2" - You see this all the time in professional sports. One NBA team may be objectively better than another but still lose the head-to-head more often than not because of personnel matchups. The worse team gets beat by most other teams, but happens to be specialized to take advantage of the top team's weaknesses. That doesn't make the great team worse, or indicate how they are expected to perform compared to the rest of the teams in the league, it just means it's one particularly bad matchup.

[@robertduerler2226]

Lowkey tho, Yoshi could be put in S-... Wake up, the West!

[@mobilisq]

nice Conker shirt, haz

[@CoNiferousTM]

While I agree with all the points that are being made, I think a REALLY BIG thing to consider is that, the “smash scene” that we’re all a part of and that we’re talking about, is still only the 1% of players that play this game. The higher level players. This doesn’t affect the millions of players that play this game casually as a party game, and that’s the audience that Nintendo is catering to because that’s where most of their money comes from. I also play FIFA, and they have the same issues where EA doesn’t fix gameplay exploits and complaints made by content creators and pros, and that’s because the people that are complaining are the .01% of the player base. The other 99.9% don’t even know that problems in the game even exist. Nintendo already made their money on sales of the game and it’s DLC, it has little to gain from hosting a tournament series because their characters are already iconic so it’s not like they need the publicity that they can gain from tournaments. Most households are usually made up of a Nintendo console and 1 other one (PlayStation, PC, Xbox) Unless Nintendo finds that they’re really losing their player base, they won’t bother to even acknowledge this. The only real hope is if we ban Steve, then Microsoft says something, because lord knows Nintendo won’t. Sorry for the pessimism but I’ve been a fan of smash and a Nintendo kid my whole life and it’s just frustrating to constantly be proved right about Nintendo not caring about their player base.

[@alter9933]

If the Smash competitive community still can't convince the general audience to stop buying Nintendo products because of their mistreatment and suffering, then is the general audience just too dumb and ignorant or intentionally malignant towards competitive community? And before you say Nintendo is too big to fail or take notice of boycotts, recent examples of other big companies having to comply to their audience did happen. Wizards of the Coast had a big controversy about the OGL 1.0a that caused lots of subscriptions to drop and people to switch to other game systems before they changed their minds.

[@CoNiferousTM]

@@alter9933 I get you, but it’s hard for the competitive scene to convince the casuals because we’re complaining about problems that they’ll never see or have to deal with. You can only discover flaws and exploits in a polished game like smash by putting thousands of hours into it and learning how the game works. A casual would never have to do that because for them, the fun is just turning the game on and pushing buttons. This is on top of the fact that the majority of the target audience is children and families with children. If the kid likes it the parent likes it, that’s what Nintendo sees.

[@nathanlevesque7812]

Hitstun tech: damage but no movement SDI: damage and movement Slip out: movement but no damage Phones recording Steve sets then sending a 5 second clip for review > checking saved replays All the options suck and either way something has to be done unless Bandai Namco is shamed into fixing the damn game. Saying the scene is declining because of one character is speculation though. Every scene has downturns. Longevity is not guaranteed. Also COVID and global inflation happened.

[@legitsniped]

Yoshi must be that high because of yoshidora

[@nico9912]

The world is not ready for the tweek rob

[@clearboness]

Someone make an edit of steve doing the "I'm the real hero" Homelander speech

[@ltzp2]

I mean whats happening in the smash community is not indicative of the game dying. Tons of players still want to play, tons of viewers still want to watch, this is not what a community dying looks like. Other orgs will come along because there's still money to be made, the economy sucks but that isn't going to make people lose interest in smash, melee almost died at one point then came back and went hard as fuck for a really long time (its still going), the main reason BTS is dying is because they couldn't stomach the laying people off approach which is respectable but I would just like to make the point that they could have went on if they were willing to make the kind of payroll cuts that become necessary during a recession under capitalism. The game dies when the players and viewers leave. Smash is taking a hit from the recession but the core of what makes it a viable community isn't going away. EDIT: a really important point that I forgot to make is that major orgs that had a hold on the community dropping out isn't purely a bad thing, its really encouraging for other organizations that wanted to get involved but didn't want to have to compete with these already established orgs that already had a lot of control. If the viewerbase is still there and the companies making money off of them leave that opens the door for more companies to come in and pick up where they left off.

[@Mr36Chamberz]

Until I see Acola or DDee play the tech in bracket it’s not a problem. We gotta put data to the complaints. Do we have vods of this tech from past tournaments or are we just crying?

[@FuckingDracula]

This, not only do we need to see the tech in practice in high level sets, but we also need to see players developing counterplay (that is if the tech is even practical in the first place) But eh, would we really be the smash community if we weren’t crying as soon as we encounter a small obstacle lol

[@dent5672]

Two steps forward, one step back!!

[@LuffyDawn]

The changes in few months are crazy… Hope all will be well

[@quantum_leap786]

dont worry he will

[@eanderson9599]

based marcus comes out to play at 10:22

[@fkaminerali6725]

this bro is talkin'. i love it

[@psyduck8025]

Can anyone link that bayo article pink was talking about?