Wine: One Word's Enigmatic History (with

[@JacksonCrawford]

To allay confusion, the placename I mention at about 15:41 is "Uncompahgre." For more content like this, check out Luke Gorton's channel: kzbin.info/door/4wKKoLjsqzu4wdu69osnGA

[@RallyGal94]

Dr. Crawford, I would love a video on ekphrastic poetry in Scandinavian literature- if any. Euhemerism would be cool too.

[@troelspeterroland6998]

Another possibility is that at some point the word for 'fermented drink made from grapes' changed its meaning to 'fermented drink made from any fruit/berry' which would also explain its persistence in Germanic. The meaning could then later change back if wine from grapes was imported under a similar name. This change could actually happen repeatedly. Blackcurrant and redcurrant are vinbär in Swedish and vodka is viin in Estonian.

[@woodyseed-pods1222]

I looked at 45 minutes on one word and thought "Hmm" but decided to give it a go. Glad I did. I enjoyed that. Thank you.

[@giandomenicolupo372]

In my own Indo-European language (Salentino dialect from Southern Italy - itself a wine producing region historically - a language originating from one of the many Latin vernaculars of Italy) curiously the word for wine is "mieru", from Latin "merum" meaning "pure" :)

[@jonswanson7766]

Great comment, cheers!

[@davidmandic3417]

Really interesting.. So, your ancestors didn't mix it with water or something, which means it was good wine :D

[@thkarape]

In Greece, also an indo-european speaking ancient wine producing region, the word is κρασί (krasí) which comes from a root meaning "blended". The more formal archaic word is οἶνος (oinos) which is related to engish wine and latin vinum. In some dialects it even started with a digamma which was the ancient greek version of a "w".

[@giandomenicolupo372]

@@davidmandic3417 I hadn't thought about that, but it might be a good explanation!

[@giandomenicolupo372]

@@thkarape Very funny that two cultures in such close proximity and intense commercial and cultural exchange (Salento is only 150 km away from Kerkyra, and all Southern Italy was full of Greek colonies anyway) would end up using two roots with basically opposite meanings! I wonder now what the Messapian word for wine could be (Messapians were the original inhabitants of Salento before the Latin conquest, they were said to be Illyrians and were known to be enemies of Taranto - the largest Spartan colony, just north west of Salento).

[@rlou4386]

Even though this is outside this channel's wheelhouse, since you referenced the pre-Indo European languages of the Mediterranean, just this week it was announced that a two-thousand year old artefact had some writing in Old Vasconic, making it the oldest text in that language by at least a thousand years. It's written in the Iberian alphabet, which to my untrained eye looks very similar to the Futhark systems

[@PRKLGaming]

The Iberian alphabet is probably from a script related to the Etruscan script, like Elder Futhark.

[@swagmundfreud666]

The Iberian alphabet to me looked very phonecian influenced in my personal opinion.

[@grimble4564]

I know the general consensus is that most European scripts ultimately trace their origin from the Phoenician alphabet, so it's not surprising. That said, it is really cool to think that something like the germanic rune system is distantly related to ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. You really get a sense for how important and mysterious the idea of an alphabet was to ancient people considering that Odin hung himself just to learn how to read and write.

[@nikitachaykin6774]

I have an interesting example with modern Russian. The words that comes from "weih1" still exist and rather common in words like вьюн vjun (vine plant) or венок venok (reef) or виться vit'sya (to curl, grow in curly manner). And the word for wine is вино vino. However, the words for grapes (виноград vinograd which conceded to be taken from gothic weinagards ) and wine grape plant (лоза - loza) are rather different. I think it may point that these words were reintroduced later. At the same time we know that words even of the same or similar form can appear in language several times and getting a bit different meaning. But anyway thank you for interesting topic.

[@davidmandic3417]

Very similar words exist in Croatian: viti, vino, vijenac, vinograd, loza... and probably in other Slavic languages. Viti and vijenac definitely come from *weih1-, and loza is interesting. Perhaps it referred originally to something that grows in that winding way and eventually came to be associated with grape vine...

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

"Bottle of wine Fruit of the vine When you gonna let me get sober? Leave me alone Let me go home Let me go home and start over Ramblin' around this dirty old town And singin' for nickels and dimes Times gettin' rough I ain't got enough To buy me a bottle of wine." Tom Paxton

[@MagnusItland]

The Nordic Bronze Age enjoyed a climate that was noticeably warmer than during most of my lifetime. We can see this from the tree line (how far into the mountains trees grew) and it would certainly also have influenced grapevines. If Germanic languages descend from the languages of the Nordic Bronze Age and the Jastorf Culture, they would have a native word for wine. The temporary cooling in the Middle Bronze Age would not have been enough to change that.

[@John-un3lj]

Indeed, a bronze age grape seed has been found in Denmark dating to 1000 BCE.

[@jeffreyadamo]

Ah my favorite KZbinr talking about my favorite beverage.

[@jonswanson7766]

Although I too love wine, SPATEN is great on a hot summer day, especially draft!

[@jessepalma4942]

I don't know how to say this, and I intend it with the utmost respect. But there's something about Jackson Crawford's strong style that make guests seem like visitors to that world.

[@gregoryheers2633]

Loved it! It's incredible how much light the history of one word, even uncertainly known, can shed on the history, lives, and culture of the people using it!

[@alisonjane7068]

luke getting excited and gesticulating when speaking on a subject he's passionate about is very relatable to me lol

[@lubricustheslippery5028]

It was warmer in the Viking age and there is archaeological finds of grape seeds from Scandinavia from the Viking age. So it's possible the Viking's grow grapes and brewed wine. That is also in the northern part of the Germanic languages so I would say wine definitely could have been common in the region of the germanic languages. The viking name of where Leif Eriksson were in north amerika was named Vinland so the word was definitely there. The word vindla with the meaning twisted/bent back and forth is also present in Swedish.

[@jonswanson7766]

Very Germanic of you to say wine was "brewed" 🤔😂

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

It's my understanding that the farthest north that vines were grown and wine was made on the continent was in Saxony. I contend that the reason the name Vinland was chosen for the settlement in the Americas was because wine was so important to the newly Christian Norse. If they could grow grapes and ferment wine they could export it to Iceland themselves instead of importing communion wine from Germany at ruinous expense.

[@whukriede]

You would find seeds from traded raisins.

[@John-un3lj]

A seed has also been found in Denmark dating from 1000 BCE, deposited during the much warmer bronze age, making it even more likely that the Nords cultivated grapes.

[@margomaloney6016]

VERY fascinating in-depth discussion! One of your BEST videos! Thank you Docs Crawford & Gorton! :)

[@LiamsLyceum]

Very fun, crazy (but not) how much you can study something so focused. I too am looking forward to the book

[@NathanaelFosaaen]

In archaeology we've pretty much come to a consensus that that the Yamnaya hypothesis is correct for proto-Indo-European. Even Colin Renfrew has abandoned the Anatolian model.

[@ksbrook1430]

Language is so fascinating. Loved this episode.

[@Erkynar]

I'm sure they heard it through the grapevine.

[@EivindurToftegaard]

"Vín" is a good friend (vinr) indeed. ;) Fun to know: "Våi" is 'wine' in Ingelheim in Germany, but "wåi" is water in vendelbo-dialekt in Denmark.

[@Bjowolf2]

Interestingly Old E also had the word "wine" for friend - cognate of the Scandinavian word "ven". So maybe these words are related somehow, since "wine" = Scand. "vin" [veen]?

[@greyareaRK1]

A product like wine has legs of its own. Wobbly legs, but fast.

[@khajiitkitten5679]

Omigosh! You are both wearing TRIBBLES!!!

[@M.athematech]

The Semitic root d-b-r is not always related to a meaning of speaking. The base meaning of the root is to be at the rear or behind. Thus it gives us the word d'vir for the hindmost room of the temple. However this root is most commonly used in its intensive form and its derivatives - to be intensively behind something is to push it or press on it, hence m'daber which literally means push/press, but typically used to mean to exPRESS words i.e. speak, leading to dibur = speech, dibrot = commandments and devarim (things, literally matters spoken of). However that is not the only use of an intensive meaning and it also gives us via the causative form hidbir = drive cattle which leads to midbar = wilderness or desert referring to the area to which cattle are driven. Also hadbara = oppression / overwhelming and hence destruction and dever = a plague something that opPRESSes.

[@gregcollins7602]

I love these videos. Went fishing on the Conejos south of here last year.

[@thomaszaccone3960]

Very intriguing conversation. I want that book!!!! Oinos related to vinum? Was there originally a digamma before Oinos? Like Woinos?? The Rhineland is Germanic and famous for wine. Before the little ice age, did the grape grow further north? There is that passage in the Vinland Saga about a German Viking describing grape vines he found here. In very early pre classical Greece there were lions there. There is that mysterious Lion Man carving in Central Europe from the Neolithic or Mesolithic??

[@CrypticConversions]

Thanks, Jackson, for clarifying that we cannot definitively say where a word began. That is a logical fallacy. Listening to this video and the reasoning that was being applied, I was banging my head on the table until you brought that up. The best we can do is say something like: 'to the best of our understanding, with the info we have at the moment, our best guess is...' Logic really does have to be mastered at the Ph.D. level.

[@Sindraug25]

Does it fit within Basque? Also, if PIE had a word for vine already, but the drink was introduced to them by another culture, surely that other culture would have named it themselves rather than start using the name that the Indo-Europeans gave it later?

[@rreinierr4175]

Combining two of my favorite subjects, etymology and wine. Very interesting, thanks. In Dutch the word is ‘wijn’ we also have brandewijn (burning wine, where brandy wine came from in English). Also when you said it the PIE root relates to winding, it reminded me of the Dutch word opwinden/opgewonden(past participle) which means to be angry about something, but can also mean being horny… two states of being wine can lead a man to!

[@Bjowolf2]

Ja, brændevin in Dan. & Norw., brännvin" in Swe. 😉

[@larswetterstrom7209]

The wine plant has a winding type of growth. There is also a family of plants called "vinda" in Swedish which also has a winding long stem - same as the wine plant.

[@heitorp.c.1327]

Wonderful content, simply amazing

[@ronpetraqueas7075]

Really interesting talk. The word for wine in Basque language,will be "ardoa", "ardo", "ardaua", "ardau". Although is being said that it was brought by romans, it is clear that has not any similarities with the roman term fot wine (vinum) On the other hand, we have the words "Garagardo" for beer , " Garia(wheat)+ Ardo (wine) and "Sagardo" for cyder, "Sagar (apple) + Ardo (wine). Mr. Gorton was spot on about the relation between , the twisted shape of the vine tree and the terms for weave. In Basque language at least. Vine tree = Mahasti Mixed, bundle up = Nahastu, Nahasi.

[@eliasholenhannouch807]

Thanks for clearing up the Aramaic point, some of my relatives do speak it 😅

[@meikala2114]

I always wondered about this word.

[@rsfaeges5298]

Very interesting discussion

[@pmacm1]

Thank you. This was a fascinating talk, even to a non linguist.

[@M.athematech]

I'm skeptical of wheel simply meaning turn turn, the root occurs in Semitic as `-g-l which looks more like a portmanteau of `-g and g-l. Now g-l does mean turn/roll and seems to somehow be a cognate of the PIE *kwel, but `-g means a cake, as does its doublet H-g. As cakes are round these words give us Semitic terms for round/circular. However, they appear to be very distant cognates of PIE *pekw which plausibly comes from an older *kwekw which is echoed in the Latin and the Q-Celtic languages (the standard idea that *pekw became *kwek in these has always been a bit dodgy, an alternative view is that these are doublets or retain an older form from an earlier wave of PIE or relative of PIE preserving initial kw that in mainstream PIE had become p). This would mean that PIE *kwekwlo and its seeming Semitic relative `-g-l originally meant "rolling cake" where cake is used simply in the sense of something round. This is the point where Luke jumps in and disagrees because he didn't think of it first :D ;)

[@gregcollins7602]

Is it possible they used it as proto indoeuropeans as some kind of medication? Like a shaman making some to cure certain ailments but not enough to get the tribe hammered. Only later finding it had trade value and therefore developed mass wine making? I am really interested in the book if it ever comes out.

[@M.athematech]

Both Greek and Semitic legend (I'm thinking Noah) associates the invention of wine with Anatolia (IE speaking in ancient times) strengthening the linguistic evidence that its IE. In IE it typically gives the word for both plant and drink. Semitic on the other hand certainly knew about grapes, but had its own words for grape gh-n-b and vine g-p-n but probably didn't think of making large amounts of juice from it and fermenting it, the innovation of wine thus uses a borrowed word. The PIE *weih1 does seem to have a cognate in Semitic in the root l-w-y meaning to join by twisting togther, where presumeably due to the Semitic tendency to standardize on 3 consonant roots, an originally prepositional suffix l- has become part of the root.

[@colmangri]

In Hungarian it's "bor" postulated to have come from Persian through Turkic, though it's curiously hard to find cognates for it

[@gypsyjunklady]

So wining is winding is twining is lining is vining is veining is betwining is wandering between lines.

[@gypsyjunklady]

Oak also is absolutely known as a lightning struck tree. Because oak allows a lot of water between its cellulose, which allows it not only to conduct more electricity, but it causes it to bend rather than break. It actually owes its strength to its innate hardness mixed with flexibility. The word Druid comes from the word Duir. Which means door and also breaks down to Dru and id. Which actually translates to Wild Wisdom in a way. From gaining ones sense of being capable of identifying things with the shamanic wisdom gained through the portal or door of nature's secrets. The wren is also called Drui-en in Irish and Dryw in Welsh, and it is an animal that is always associated with the Druid and the oak. The lightning association was attributed to the bull god Taranis. Lightning and flashes of light are always associated with downloads of consciousness. And Oaks are seen as the tree of knowledge and their wisdom as the earliest form of scholarly learning. We first used their lightning burnt branches to write with on paper made of birch and the first books in many primitive lands were made of beech paper. The trees are the teachers and language is like the breeze that blows between the leaves and across the micelial network of roots. The first internet and library for wildwood students. 💚

[@lakrids-pibe]

Denmark is a wine producing country now. Haha! I think it started in the 1990s *Skærsøgaard Vin* is commercially available (But I haven't tried it)

[@kimfleury]

Did I miss the part where you talked about the relationship of the word "vine" to "weave" (and wine)?

[@Bjowolf2]

In Danish ( / Scandinavian) we have "vin" [veen] and "vinde" [vin*-ne], which aside from "win" also means "to wind" - a spiral staircase is "en vindel-trappe" for instance - and "ud-vinde" ( litt. "out-wind" ) means "to extract" ( natural resources for example ).

[@Leptospirosi]

The most important producer of Wine in Europe were the Kelts: They were already making wine in south of france and along the Rhodanus river, before the Romans existed. they could easily trade Wine with the Germans. Gauls named the Wine Woinos or Oinos.

[@mytube001]

We have words like "wizard" and "dragon", but no one has seen either at any point in history! :D

[@richs853]

Really interesting, 45 minutes on one word but absolutely fascinating! I’m curious why, if wine was ‘invented’ in Georgia and traded to PIE speaking areas, PIE wouldn’t have borrowed the original Kartvelian word instead of inventing their own?

[@sukamakanpedas]

The Georgian word is 'gvino', if I remember correctly. So the Kartvelians would have had to borrow their word for their own stuff from PIE speakers!

[@eltrew]

I think what i find interesting about the history of wine is despite the nature of it, it doesn't really tend to go through semantic shifts, get's generalised or anything like that.

[@roberto7027]

The pontic Caspian steppe has been proven by geneticists like David Reich to be the homeland of protoindoeuropean speakers. It's a confirmed fact at this point! Btw I loved this video in particular, it was super interesting, sorry for my deviation. Thanks!

[@toddapplegate3988]

If a word or it sounds like word is part of trade it makes the word more consistent. Dollar is practically understood in every language today. Travel and see if anyone doesn't understand dollar at some level. Either conversion to local currency or at least commerce .

[@gavinrogers5246]

Great video with solid reasoning; however, does that push the PIE ur-homeland further south towards the Caucasus? The Horse, The Wheel and Language has the homeland a little far into the steppe-forest to be an area that is conducive to wine growing. Dr. Gorton, would you be interested in giving a guest lecture at UCCS this coming spring semester? Also, I am applying to UNM to work with Dr. Mike Ryan and would love to work with you as well (if I get in).

[@gavinrogers5246]

I spoke too soon about geography. Black Sea interaction before splitting does make sense.

[@hbowman108]

Wine is grown well to the north of the Black Sea, as far north along the Nister as Chernivtsi.

[@hbowman108]

Also in that area is "Vinnytsia", named for wine.

[@gavinrogers5246]

@@hbowman108 I am fairly positive that the name comes thousands of years later though.

[@elimalinsky7069]

@@gavinrogers5246 Doesn't change the fact that grapevines for wine-making are grown there, or that they can be grown that far north.

[@marcrubin8844]

QUESTION: Is there a relation between the Latin verb venire (arrive) and the word vino (wine).? Since the wine comes from the twisted plant

[@francesconicoletti2547]

I take it from the context of the discussion that at the time being discussed neither Germanic languages or wine growing had reached the Rhine.

[@onurbschrednei4569]

Wine growing on the Rhine was brought by the Romans.

[@diegorojasmendez4213]

Loved this video porque amo El vino

[@snaiwa]

This video was fascinating!

[@mikeholt2112]

Drinking wine watching this video life is good

[@elimalinsky7069]

I had sort of the impression that proto-Germanic got the word from Celtic and not Latin. In Latin it's Vinum, in proto-Italic Winom, and in proto-Celtic Winom as well, since proto-Italic and proto-Celtic were sister languages. The early Germanic tribes started to have extensive contact with the Celts in central Europe around 200 BCE (which would also explain why Finnish retains the proto-Germanic ending form as with a lot of early borrowings), and the word would have been borrowed into proto-Germanic around that time from Celtic. But now I'm really starting to think proto-Germanic could have inherited the word from PIE, because it would still be winan given the morphological rules.

[@vvvvaaaacccc]

excellent discussion!

[@charlesspissu4647]

I would love to see a similar video on the even-older, and more-common, word "tea." As I understand it, "tea" and its variants -- the', chai, cha, dja -- appear in fifty or more diverse languages. Tea, anyone?

[@jesperandersson889]

earlier copies of a word might be 'replaced' hence redoubling on the Latin language as source (linguistically)...

[@delhatton]

Before they were able to import wine, what alcoholic beverage(s) did the northerners have? What were these liquids called?

[@BlakeBarrett]

When is Luke going to post his next vid to @WordSafari?

[@gadgetboymaster]

My native language is Afrikaans in which wine is wyn but what I curious about is that in English words that rhyme with wine is line and fine Now in Afrikaans word's with the same meaning also rhymes wyn lyn fyn the same for cow glow flow koei gloei vloei Would words that rhyme in English also rhyme say in old Norse? Would these words also if present in proto ie have rhymed?

[@jonswanson7766]

I read a book years ago called "Viking America" that discussed the various reasons "Vinland" was choosen for the southern region of Viking exploration. Grape vine land was one description, but I seem to remember a discussion about how a Norse word meaning "pasture" was discussed. I am going to find that book to see about it.

[@JSBHP2017]

Do you mean the book "The Vikings in North America: The History and Legacy of the Norse Settlements in Greenland and Vinland" by Charles River Editors?

[@jonswanson7766]

@@JSBHP2017 it could be, it was almost fifty years ago. Very interesting book that was trying to prove many theories about how much of America the Vikings had visited.

[@weepingscorpion8739]

Yes, that’s the Vinland vs Vínland discussion. Dr. Crawford already has a video on this. He dismissed the Vin- (pasture) meaning, if I remember correctly.

[@samp9418]

Wow, this is fascinating!

[@vazhaamiranashvili3657]

Hi Guys, thanks for the video, it was really educating. One thing I'd like to comment on however is that ruling out the Kartvelian languages from this subject would be not correct :) In the modern Georgian the word "wine" is pronounced "ghvino" (ღვინო) with "gh" at the beginning (it is somewhat like how the Dutch say "Groningen"). In one of the Kartvelian languages the Svan language the word "wine" is pronounced as "ghvinel". It consists of the following parts: the root "gvi" of the verb "ghvivili" (fermentation, boiling), which is also used in the moder Georgian and "ne" meaning "sweet" in Svan. The suffix "l" is just for constructing nouns. So in Svan it literally means "fermentation of something sweet". So this word has a direct meaning in the Kartvelian languages. Considering the fact that the oldest remnants of wine (about 8000 years old) were discovered in the modern day Georgia the hipothesis of the Kartvelian origin of this word becomes at least as likely as other ones.

[@faithlesshound5621]

Maybe drunken Indo-Europeans just swapped the v and gh around to make vigh and then weih1 from ghvi? Perhaps they found it difficult to start a word with that sound?

[@tbott1061]

he mentions that at 7:20

[@carlicollins6863]

I have often wondered why the Greek word for wine is so different from the other European languages.

[@HBon111]

There used to be a "w" before the "-oinos". Does that make it seem closer, or did you mean something different?

[@krikeles]

Why is the modern Greek word for wine κρασί?

[@krikeles]

@@apmoy70 thanks; that was very clear.

[@zenosAnalytic]

It doesnt necessarily have to be conquest tho. Like: archaeologically and textually we know the Romans were trading HUGE amounts of wine into Gaul long before the conquest, so it's possible the Gaels were getting it from Romans calling it "wino" and trading it on further north and east under a similar name. Tho it's more likely this trade goes back pretty far through the Greeks; we know they were doing trade missions all the way to Britain for tin.

[@JasperFromMS]

This was fun. You gave interesting friends (like IM.)

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

The sanskrit word is entirely different and is the source of the Farsi word however the Sinhala word is _viyan_ though that may be borrowed from Portuguese, English, or a combination of the two.

[@hsuan2323]

Amber was being traded from the Baltic sea down to the Mediteranean sea, really very early on, we know when it started showing up in Egyptian jewelry. Wine was exactly the sort of not very perishable, pretty transportable good that those people way up north would have had great interest in. and the distances involved are not really that bad, If I were to walk from Tallinn to Istanbul, with lets say a pony pulling a wagon. it would take me couple of months. I would show up with a handful of precious gems and load my wagon with wine and return with a fortune. For Americans, it would be like walking from Montana to Louisiana.

[@willinnewhaven3285]

Howe about tucumcari?

[@moritzm6470]

Neither "weave" (< *webh) nor "wind" (< *wendh) are derived from *weih1... Also final -a was only dropped after 500 AD or so in Proto-Norse which I would think leaves plenty time for a borrowing from Latin to make it to Scandinavia?

[@ThorirLenvik]

I don't think it's any agreement as to if 'vin' in "Vinland" is referring to wild grapes or meadows/pastures. The latter is the case when 'vin' is a part of place-names from Norway dated to later iron age, like Bjørgvin, Hovin etc. But, I'm no specialist in this field...

[@jonswanson7766]

Yes, thank you! The book "Viking America" l think made the argument, I am going to buy it again. Skol 👍 Or should it be Skoal?

[@jasondumb5706]

How did semitic languages adopt an indoeuropean term so early? Prior to arrival of indo European in Greece.

[@decapitated-elephant1515]

Probably through Indo-Iranian languages

[@oneukum]

@@decapitated-elephant1515 I am afraid the timing rules that out. Akkadian is older than the arrival of the Indoiranians.

[@selen332]

presumably through trade routes through the caucasus, you can't rule out that it might have passed through a bunch of languages before ending up in semitic, rather than a direct IE > semitic route

[@koomaj]

In finnish wine is viini, and hard liqour is viina.

[@thomasnorren8484]

Words that the speakers dont have contact with like lion can survive through mythology, as in that people could not have lions but could have a story which has lions in from when the PIE were in a place with lions or borrowed from a people which has lions. And through the myth, possible a myth that has died, they can teach the concept or at least keep a vage idea about what the word means, or through idioms

[@cdineaglecollapsecenter4672]

St. Urho drove the grasshoppers out of Finland and saved the wine crop. On March 16th. You guys should look it up.

[@GreenLarsen]

Just to state the obvious, you can also make wine from any berry

[@aa-zz6328]

But why would the word for wine, be borrowed into the Kartvilian language family and Semitic languge family, who are in the center of the grapevine's native range and wine production, from a language family on the periphery it, unless one considers Anatolia and/or Armenia as a homeland for the Indo-European language family!

[@elimalinsky7069]

Because the domestication of the grapevine for making wine took place in the Caucasus-Anatolia region, hence why the Semites adopted the name used from further up North, probably from the Hittites, who were an Indo-European people. Also in Kratvelian languages there is a native name for wine but Georgian mostly uses the word gvini, which might indicate that even though Georgia is the birthplace of wine, at some point wine became associated with luxury goods coming from the Roman Empire, and so the Latin word stuck. That's just my take on it.

[@davidmandic3417]

Weird, but Slavic languages somehow happen to have a native word for "elephant".

[@davidmandic3417]

@@johnbaker1256 It's "slon", or something similar (depending on the language). That looks like a completely ordinary Slavic word. There are some theories about its etymology, but nobody really knows for sure where it came from.

[@mikeholt2112]

Why would people who are producing wine adopt the word for it of people who aren’t?

[@davidmandic3417]

The question is - why o-grade in Greek oinos, and e-grade in Latin vinum? Also, the Greek word is masculine, but the Latin, Germanic, Celtic and Slavic words are neuter...

[@rogergdavis6605]

You forgot Mizpah Nevada.

[@bob___]

De vino, veritas

[@BlakeBarrett]

Is there a Basque “WHYN” related word?

[@ronpetraqueas7075]

I don´t think so, as far as I know. Ardau, Ardaua, Ardo, Ardoa..are the most common terms used for wine. Grape = Mahatsa Vine =Mahasti. I actually made myself that same question , under a Basque point of view... Cheers

[@8bitRemakes]

great video, as always makes me wonder about the etymology for "vri" (in norwegistanian) and if it is at all connected in some way

[@sleepinthemorningcalm]

In modern Greek it’s “krasi” (κρασί). No idea where that comes from

[@benedyktjaworski9877]

Is there anything in the Finnish word ‘viina’ that would rule out a Slavic or Baltic borrowing? Especially since late PSl. *vino would be earlier (~6th c. AD) *wīna (which Wiktionary counts as a Latin borrowing, but I’m not sure if there is any reason to postulate it other than ‘Slavs were far from wine production’, and as you mention, Ukraine actually isn’t far at all). Compare Finnish akkuna ‘window’, if Wiktionary is to be believed from early Proto-Slavic *akuna (hence later *okъno).

[@thomasivarsson1291]

Whine is called vin in Swedish.

[@hbowman108]

Germany isn't wine country? The Rhine near Mannheim is the "Weinstraße". Although this could be later migration into Celtic areas.

[@se6369]

The Proto-Germanic people might have lived further north (I think)

[@martinnyberg9295]

27:57 “We don’t associate northern Europe with wine”? Yes, we do. There have been archaeological evidence of vine growing in what today is Sweden during the bronze age for at least 75 years by now, if not longer. It might have been growing there still in the early iron age and perhaps again in the late iron age. So when agriculture was imported, so was wine - in both the linguistic and the agricultural senses. 😊

[@HBon111]

wine/vine ^_^

[@M.athematech]

To throw a spanner in the works, Gesenius lists "Arabic , وين [wayan] , collect . Clusters turning black" An Afroasiatic meaing of "cluster" accords with the Chadic for millet being "wan".

[@fishbein42]

Gesenius must have based his reference to the native Arabic lexicographic tradition. I just looked at my copy of the Lisān al-ʿArab (13th century), where the root w-y-n hasn a brief entry. Apparently, the word wayn- occurred occasionally in poetry (one verse is cited in the entry). The consensus (two authorities cited) is that wayn- referred to wine of some type, but the lexicographers were uncertain about whether it was a substantive (wine) or an adjective for a specific type of wine or grapes. Some said it referred to black (dark) grapes; others that it referred to white (light) grapes. The compiler of the dictionary threw up his hands in desperation: "and God knows best." Wayn- would be the archaic form from which Hebrew yayin was derived (Hebrew regularly changes initial w > y and changes the sequence -ayFinalConsonant to -ayiFinalConsonant). I don't have an Akkadian dictionary at hand, but it would be interesting to see whether a similar word was attested in the 3rd millennium B.C. The Arabic "root" is unproductive: there are no other nouns, verbs, or adjectives derived from it; although the Lisān attributes the unusual word wānat- (a short woman-or man) to this root. The ordinary Arabic words for wine derive either from the root for fermenting (khamr-) or are epithets for various kinds of wine. In pre-Islamic poetry, wine is often identified as brought from the north by traders. Islam eventually prohibited wine, but every classical Arabic poet worth his salt devoted a section of his collected works to wine poems (khamriyyāt).

[@M.athematech]

@@fishbein42 Yeah if w-y-n exists with a meaning of cluster I would argue that this is derived from the borrowed root for vine. Semitic has other words for cluster based on ship`el-like verbs formed from k-l = all (eshkol, sugullu/segol). If Chadic wan for millet is related this could be a transference of a term originally used for grape clusters to millet clusters and it isn't the only word for millet in Chadic.

[@pappapata]

Hejsan, the Norse Bronze Age was a pretty warm and cozy time if I'm not mistaken. So why not grapes in its southern parts? Juss tinkin😉👍🙏 Btw, even today some grape varieties can be grown right up to the area of ​​Stockholm.😊

[@beepboop204]

🙂

[@veronicasponchia5838]

Any fruit juice can make wine, any ancient people knew old juice makes you feel good. I don't agree at all. Some people may have made better hooch, but you will not find a civilization without booze. Call it what you will.

[@oneukum]

But you still need to explain why the word went into other language families from Protoindoeuropean as the word for wine, not grapevine. If you propose that the Protoindoeuropeans named the beverage after the grapevine, don't you imply that they made wine?

[@carlastevens5757]

🎉 𝓅𝓇𝑜𝓂𝑜𝓈𝓂

[@sathdk79]

Is this really a debate? W is interchangeable with V and a very visible sound shift in eastern-european languages. Vino/Vine = Wino/Wine. It is a drink made from vine fruits (grapes).

[@Adam-xb8xh]

Jackson I’m curious with your in-depth study of the Norse mythology, do you yourself consider yourself a believer in these gods? Or atleast believe they once existed ?

[@faithlesshound5621]

A theologian does not have to be a believer in any gods, just as a Potterhead need not reside in the Potterverse.

[@CastleVainea55]

The tedious rigor of academic discussion is hard to endure. Wine. Alcohol. All cultures have their version of it. For Norse, no grapes grow there, so vin or wine means honey mead.

[@OldieBugger]

I doubt grapevibes ever grew in Finland, so I suppose the word came to Finnish as the trade name of wine, from the first tradesmen who sold it in Finland. Or it may been a loanword from Swedish, after they conquered the SW Finland (still called Varsinaissuomi "The Actual/Proper Finland").