Magic and Demons in the Roman World (with

Dr. Andrew Mark Henry (‪@ReligionForBreakfast‬) answers questions about the late Roman world's beliefs in magic and demons, and related subjects, from patreon supporters of Jackson Crawford in this Zoom conversation recorded live on August 14, 2022.
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
Jackson Crawford’s Patreon page: / norsebysw
Visit Grimfrost at glnk.io/6q1z/jacksoncrawford
Latest FAQs: vimeo.com/375149287 (updated Nov. 2019).
Jackson Crawford’s translation of Hávamál, with complete Old Norse text: www.hackettpublishing.com/the... or www.amazon.com/Wanderers-Hava...
Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Poetic Edda: www.hackettpublishing.com/the... or www.amazon.com/Poetic-Edda-St...
Audiobook: www.audible.com/pd/The-Poetic...
Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Saga of the Volsungs: www.hackettpublishing.com/the... or www.amazon.com/Saga-Volsungs-...
Audiobook: www.audible.com/pd/The-Saga-o...
Music © I See Hawks in L.A., courtesy of the artist. Visit www.iseehawks.com/
Logos by Elizabeth Porter (snowbringer at gmail).

[@andrewmarkhenry]

Thanks for having me on! Had a lot of fun.

[@aisling0880]

Two of my favorite channels collaborating! This one is to be enjoyed properly ^^

[@sharonjackson5196]

In Orthodox Christianity, interacting with icons - touching, kissing, carrying them in our wallets or purses, dashboards, not to mentions all over our homes -- is a regular part of daily life.

[@Pandaemoni]

That "demons" in ancient thought were physical reminded me of the Dr. Crawford's saying that "ghosts" in the Old Norse tales always had bodies, rather than being incorporeal.

[@josephpercy1558]

More accurately, I would say that they can be classified as _supra-physical._ Think of it as a type of ancient transhumanism. Demons and even gods had physical bodies so luminous and so refined that commonly they were imagined as derivative of the aether, which was imagined to be a special mode of physicality, so to speak. "Ethereal blood" has a prominent mention in Homer, as it is said to retain the qualities of the immortals’ food and drink, ambrosia and nectar. Mortals can be born with this blood flowing through their veins and thus can participate via these divine intermediaries in different modes of immortality.

[@DenNavnlos]

What a pairing! Great topic as well; looking forward to this one.

[@thomaszaccone3960]

Ancient Egyptian and Arabic are both Afro-Asiatic languages although in separate branches of the Afro-Asiatic linguistic family. Perhaps it was easier for locals to pick up Arabic than it was to pick up an Indo-European Language. Plus the political ramifications.

[@GeezNutz]

Two excellent public educators...so glad this happened.

[@brandoncherry9160]

Very interesting perspectives. Thanks for sharing your scholarship with us, guys.

[@Xandara]

This was very interesting! Thank you for the discussion!

[@joetrimble7953]

As a practitioner of pagan ritual, I found this talk really fascinating. I will have a new channel to follow/catch up on episodes.

[@beantownbushcraft]

Great Pairing Gents, Thanks Doc appreciated this One for sure👏🏻☘️

[@watcherofthewest8597]

Thank you for a great conversation!

[@melissamybubbles6139]

Yay! I'm glad they're talking.

[@alexnaskos]

Wow, super excited for this, these are two of my favorite channels!

[@Grabbael]

thats one of the things i always liked about the words "thaumaturge" and "thaumaturgy". i have been saying exactly about what you have been saying for years in regards to those words. i like how it applies, while still being respectful, in case i am talking to someone who finds what i am saying to be possibly sacriligeous according to their beliefs.

[@ratboy_]

Crossover of the centuries

[@faithlesshound5621]

Sometimes you need to study the ancient and far away to see what's going on today in your own back yard. The American Civil Religion's latest dragon-slaying saint would be "Abraham Lincoln - Vampire Hunter" which retrofits a secular saint into the whole Bram Stoker/Buffy/ Twilight world of literature, television and fanfiction.

[@melissahdawn]

Christianity using existing religious functions and repurposisng them. That is exactly what music did, too. Religious tunes used a (bass) lower voice line or sometimes even the melody from a popular bar tune. Even today, we have a hymnal full of religious lyrics given to popular tunes (Finlandia sang as "Be Still my Soul", comes to mind) I used to think the religion found it's truth in surviving so long, but it seems the way anything survives is through adaptation and that is something Christianity has done quite well, both in Egypt and in the west.

[@seanwelch71]

Team-Up!

[@ericraymond3734]

I can tell you why Arabic displaced Coptic rather than Greek displacing Coptic. It's because the Arabs exerted tremendous pressure on the peasantry to Islamicize itself, and Arabic was the language of the Koran. At that time only unbelievers could be taxed (in other accounts believers were taxed at a nominal rate but infidels at a very high punitive one), so making the confession of faith meant you didn't have armed men coming around to rob you as often. This didn't last; as the percentage of infidels dwindled the tax base got too narrow and the exemption of the Faithful was revoked. But by that time the process of language replacement had already reached a tipping point.

[@zoushuu]

Wow, that was unexpected!

[@KTo288]

searched for a collab from two of my favourite KZbinrs Ian from Forgotten weapons and Dr Crawford, only to find a collab from two of my favourite KZbinrs.

[@EgonSupreme]

Haven't seen it yet, but this is a very cool collaboration!

[@kyidyl]

Re: whether medicine is magic or ritual, I'd say in some places it definitely is. So, for example, some Mexican cultures have this entire system of balancing hot and cold, but they assign these qualities irrespective of temperature (much like romance languages assign a gender to objects and whatnot that obviously don't have a gender.). There's also tons of belief systems all across the world (including Christianity) that think illness is caused by something like a demon or a bad spirit or witchcraft. So I mean yeah, I think there's a lot of magic in medicine. And I'm not talking about efficacy because while, yeah, a lot of it is ineffective, you also have the concept of the placebo effect in western biomedicine. It recognizes that the mind can be utilized to help the body. There's a lot of ritual in medicine. Also, yes, there's tons of archeological evidence of pocket sized icons. Tooooons of tiny statues ppl used to carry around in ancient Egypt. They're kinda cute honestly.

[@CChissel]

Whoa, I watch both of you (religiously) so I’m very glad to see both of you together!

[@seanwelch71]

Religion allows for quantum entanglement.

[@krikeles]

Presbycusis makes listening an adventure. At time 36:10 Dr. Crawford asked "what brought you to Egypt" and I heard "what brought you to Jesus". Thought the conversation was going to take a turn to the evangelical. Mercifully I had misheard. Excellent discussion

[@phillipr.mctear8962]

👍

[@beepboop204]

🙂

[@russmonte5176]

Ian sent me

[@OrcBitch]

🤠

[@mrelephant2283]

Jackson is speedrunning collabing with all the KZbinrs I watch

[@stevenv6463]

Interesting that Origen would see pagan sacrifice as efficacious albeit negatively despite Paul saying animal sacrifice is nothing.

[@TheGamingBDGR]

Yes but no. I think Paul and Origen would be in agreement that sacrificing anything to these spiritual beings would be efficacious. Origen forewarns that to do so is inviting a malevolent spirit seeking to take godhood for itself into your life and thus anything bad to happen well... you did invite a daemonia in. The form of Judaism from which Paul came and the form of Christianity which he helped foster was Monolateral not Monotheistic. Paul's point on animal sacrifice being nothing is actually twofold, on the one it is okay for believers to eat it (many pagan temples acted kind of as butcher shops after all) although we should not if our consuming it there would cause a fellow brother to stumble if they haven't yet come to understand the truth of Christ which is the God we serve is the defacto Creator God of all and as such over all things and provider of all things so therefore greater than whatever spirit that meat may have been sacrificed to(a spirit who did nothing in the procurement and provision of that meat) His other point in making that statement but one that lends credence to his agreement with Origen is that Paul states it is unwise for anyone and therefore unacceptable for any Christian to offer sacrifice to the various Idols propped up in temples for you as a man are unable to know if that wooden Idol is merely carved make believe and therefore means nothing and can do nothing or if it does pertain to some kind of malevolent being in the spiritual beyond your scope to handle.

[@stevenv6463]

@@TheGamingBDGR Yeah that's what is strange to me about Paul. He seems so modern about eating sacrificed meat but other places he seems to warn people about malevolent supernatural forces. Could you give me a source on the second point? ie that he states sacrificing to idols could be dangerous because there might be something real and evil behind it.

[@TheGamingBDGR]

@@stevenv6463 I certainly can try, so 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 and 1 Corinthians 10:14-33 are the main verses here to look at. Both are centered around believers and interaction with food sacrificed to idols. verses 4-7 are about how idols are not really gods and there may be so-called gods in heaven and on earth but we[believers] know there is only one God and Lord. But not all believers have fully understood that and so still believe idols to be real. So in order not to cause them to stumble we should abstain from eating of food. 1 Corinthians 10:14-33 approaches the subject again instructing believers to flee from worship of idols but Paul goes on to say " Am I saying food offered to idols has some significance or that idols are real? No not at all, I am saying these sacrifices are offered to demons, not to God." Towards the end he makes the statement "So you may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace without raising questions of conscience. For the earth is the LORD's and everything in it." There is much more in those passages so I would say you should really sit down and read them in full, I can't do it justice in this one comment. And there are other passages I know I can pull to show but these are the two off the top of my head. Later when I have the time to sit down and look for the ones I had in mind initially I will do so and comeback and add those.

[@stevenv6463]

@@TheGamingBDGR For the earth is the Lord's and everything in it. How do you think this squares with Paul's idea that Satan is the god of this world? And also the archons of the age/world that would have stopped the crucifixion if they knew (usually assumed to be secular human authorities)? Sometimes I find it difficult to understand Paul as a systematic thinker. Maybe because he developed his ideas over time or writing letters with a certain audience doesn't always show clear statements of belief.

[@TheGamingBDGR]

@@stevenv6463 Excellent question! So first off yes, part of understanding scripture is that it's an old collection of texts written by many different people over a period of very different times to very different audiences. There is developing theology happening IN scripture and the people writing scripture had no idea of what it would go on to become! Many in the 1st century CE thought the Resurrection was gonna happen in their lifetime, Paul included. Part of interacting with scripture as a believer is the understanding of this fact but holding the faith that there is a through line that carries the wisdom and truth of scripture without being tied to a certain time period. As to your main question, the answer lies in the word "god" and it's lowercase writing as opposed to "God" referring to the Creator. The word we are deriving it from is "elohim" this is sometimes used as a name for God but that isn't entirely correct, nor is it wrong. The word in it's most base definition is simply "spiritual beings" now not literally but that is the closest english can get to the concept it's conveying. Now that word was used by the Hebrews to refer to both the Creator and the various other beings worshiped as gods. The destinction came with a definitive article attached so it would be either "gods" as in "spiritual beings" or "The God" as in the Creator. Paul's use of the word(it's Greek equivalent in his letters) is in no way signifying the Satan figure has any kind of control over this world greater than God's(read: Monolateral theology, not Monotheistic) it also ties in with a passage in Deuteronomy, I don't remember the chapter number but the scene is known as the Table of Nations and it's a scene where God essentially while not relinquishing power and authority says to the nations "okay, you keep rejecting me and wanting to follow your own logic and worship these beings that have done nothing for you. So I'll let you and take Israel for myself and we'll check in and see how it's going for you."

[@heqaib]

I once gave a lecture on amulets from New Kingdom Egypt. I simply couldn't explain the proliferation of Cartouce amulet from Kings like Thutmose III. What was the attraction? It would seem that your Greco-Roman period - Coptic period ideas started further back in time, only the subject changed. P. S. I cringe at the use of the word 'Magic.'

[@DanCooper404]

Demons taking over RFB's video feed

[@melissamybubbles6139]

So people treated rituals as healthcare, with different religions providing different specialties?

[@donkeysaurusrex7881]

Well maybe not originally, but say you’re praying and making offerings and doing all these other practices to your favored god so you can have a son. Then you have a daughter, and maybe you try plying some different god for favor, and then another daughter. You try another god, and now you get a son. Well, you’re probably going to tell a friend going through the same thing to skip all the gods that didn’t help you out and go right to the one who did. It sort of changes as time goes on and whatnot, but people are beseeching different gods because others have already failed them. Then look how different gods become known for this or that or have lots of stories associating them with this and that which helps guide your practice too.

[@GraceDivineEntertainment]

This is a great video. Thank you. I am curious to learn how the gods were worshipped in ancient Norse mythology and in particular, the SACRILIZING of profane space (ELIADE). From listening to your awesome videos, I gather that language had an equal value to land space. A second idea for a video, it would very interesting to learn the differences between Icelandic, Sami Finnish and Scandinavian religious practices and fervor. THANK YOU SO MUCH. Your work is invaluable. Grace

[@dukecity7688]

That is an idea I have not heard. Language has = value to land space. Can you explain please?

[@GraceDivineEntertainment]

@@dukecity7688 Hello Duke City. Thank you for your reply. Well, if one considers that in the nature of esoteric studies, the air occupies space, just like earth does, the speaking or formulating of words creates a landscape in that space. See what I mean? Also, wherever there is sacrilizing ritual there is the element of language. Hence the prayers in churches for example. It is the conception and the conceiving that renders reality. I hope this was helpful in explaining my ideas. Let me know if this was helpful. thank you Duke City. And, I am just curious, what is Duke City mean? Thank you

[@oleksiishekhovtsov1564]

16:40 damn, now I'm really curious

[@StormKidification]

The late Roman Empire and demons nothing better in my books

[@NunyaBesnas]

Wow a cross over I never thought I’d see!

[@osobaum]

Woop.woop!

[@dustinellerbe4125]

Be careful cooking meat for dinner, don't want to invoke the wrong type of spirit... 🤣

[@M.athematech]

Why did Arabic take over from Coptic but Greek didn't? Because Arabic speakers murdered and outbred Copts, Greeks didn't.

[@markadams7597]

Interesting that Dr. Henry steps int early Middle Ages without really reviewing the world of Late Antiquity. Also interesting that he doesn't present a firm useable definition for "religion", "magic", or even "Christinaity".

[@reeyees50]

Two chads talking to each other

[@M.athematech]

Regarding works such as Enoch, Tobit and Sefer Harazim, Andrew fails to distinguish between "Jewish texts" and texts by people who merely happen to be of Jewish background or merely written in Hebrew. There is also a failure to distinguish between actual belief and practice and fantasy literature. None of these mentioned texts have anything to do with mainstream Jewish thought and religion and so it is incorrect to refer to them as Jewish texts. Tobit is a novella in an historical setting with fantasy elements. Various works in Hebrew describing Solomon's interactions with demons are in fact just early forms of what has evolved into children's TV cartoon stories in modern times. Sefer Harazim is one person or a minority's personal pseudo-science.

[@embeleco2342]

So, in anology, you would argue that the medieval saint lives (Vitae), containing the most fantastic stories and miracles, are nót christian texts, but merely were written by persons living in an christian environment, or who happened to know latin?

[@M.athematech]

​@@embeleco2342its more like pointing out that Harry Potter, Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are not texts of the Christian religion, despite being written by Christians living in a Christian environment (a fairly devout Christian in the case of the Lord of the Rings).

[@embeleco2342]

Ok, i get your point, thanks! (btw, like your logo, being a musician myself. π quarters to the measure, lmao)

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

Were these regarded as fantasy literature? The Sefer HaRazim was pieced together from incantations found at burial sites. That doesn't exactly scream creative writing.

[@M.athematech]

@@Humorless_Wokescold Enoch and Tobit are regarded as some writers' personal fantasy about historical figures about whom very little was known. They were not texts of the Jewish religion. Sefer Ha-Razim is some charlatan's nonsense. Incantations and sorcery are condemned in Judaism.