Stephen Meyer Interviews John Lennox about going "Against the Tide"

Intelligent design proponent Stephen Meyer sits down for a conversation with Oxford mathematician, and debater extraordinaire, John Lennox. Both have explored the intersection of science and faith, and challenged the atheistic materialism pushed by many scientists and scholars. Here they discuss the science that leads them to believe in a purpose driven universe from the origin of life to biological evolution to the fine-tuning of nature and the universe.
The conversation comes in advance of the forthcoming one night only film "Against the Tide: Finding God in an Age of Science." The movie stars Oxford University mathematician John Lennox and actor Kevin Sorbo, and highlights debates between Professor Lennox, arguing the case for theism, supported by science, against prominent atheists including Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens. You can see it on November 19, for one night only, in theaters across the US. Be sure to reserve your tickets here: againstthetide.movie/. #AgainstTheTideMovie
Be sure to check out these other videos you may like:
The Edge of Evolution feat. Michael Behe (5:26)
• The Edge of Evolution ...
Does Science Point To God? - Stephen Meyer at Dallas Science Faith Conference 2020 (1:06:09)
• Does Science Point To ...
James Tour: The Origin of Life Has Not Been Explained (22:57)
• James Tour: The Origi...
============================
The Discovery Science News Channel is the official KZbin channel of Discovery Institute's Center for Science & Culture. The CSC is the institutional hub for scientists, educators, and inquiring minds who think that nature supplies compelling evidence of intelligent design. The CSC supports research, sponsors educational programs, defends free speech, and produce articles, books, and multimedia content. For more information visit www.discovery.org/id/
www.evolutionnews.org/
www.intelligentdesign.org/
Follow us on Facebook and Twitter:
Twitter: @discoverycsc
Facebook: / discoverycsc
Visit other KZbin channels connected to the Center for Science & Culture
Discovery Institute: / discoveryinstitute
Dr. Stephen C. Meyer: / drstephenmeyer
The Magician's Twin - CS Lewis & Evolution: / cslewisweb
Darwin's Heretic - Alfred Russel Wallce: / alfredrwallaceid

[@angelclaudio3634]

Best John Lennox retort ever..... Stephen Hawkings said that "Religion is a fairytale for people who are afraid of the dark" John Lennox came back with "Atheism is a fairytale for people who are afraid of the light". Quick as a whip that John Lennox is!!! Great defender of the faith!!!!!

[@alternativefernandez6471]

Very few jump to atheism because it makes them feel better. I bet if you could peer into the minds of most atheists, you would see them longing for a God. It certainly isn't a fairytale. Religion, on the other hand, almost always includes the optimal outcome for a person. So, as usual, Lennox uses poetic language, but really says nothing at all about the actual existence or non-existence of God.

[@cowboyneverdycowboynevercr2027]

No kidding, thats 👌 a one heck of an analogy.

[@matteuslucas4223]

@@alternativefernandez6471 nonsense. - Very few jump to atheism because it makes them feel better. How do you know? Have you done research? How many have you asked? - I bet if you could peer into the minds of most atheists, you would see them longing for a God. Have you ever tried to debate atheists? Most of them hate God in my experience. If they didn't they would search for him and find him. - Religion, on the other hand, almost always includes the optimal outcome for a person. Almost always? Have you studied all religion? What is the exception to the rule? Can you tell me in your own words what Christianity teaches and what the "optimal outcome" is for a christian? - So, as usual, Lennox uses poetic language, but really says nothing at all about the actual existence or non-existence of God. This is just an ad hominem, he's well known for debating FOR the existence of God.

[@markp1845]

@@alternativefernandez6471 I don’t know that it is possible to say that “very few jump to atheism because it makes them feel better.” All that you can say is that not all choose atheism because it makes them feel better. Some have a longing for God. Something in their psyche doesn’t allow them to move toward God though. In my case I was befriended by an atheist when I was younger who challenged me on my faith. He was always challenging me. His driving motivation was that he didn’t want a god to interfere with his choices in life much like Bertrand Russell. Richard Dawkins has voiced similar thoughts. Thomas Nagel said, “I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God”. Most atheists writing today seem to be saying that atheism makes them feel better about their choices. In other words they feel better without God. Not rational reasoning but hey, they’re atheist.

[@vladtepes9614]

@@alternativefernandez6471 I went through a period of existential crisis when I lost my faith. It definitely wasn't a picnic. It took awhile to accept "I don't know" as an answer to questions that I formerly believed I had iron-clad certainty for.

[@wolfensteinplayer3972]

As a Muslim, I want to say to my brothers christians, that these two guys with Dr Michael Behe practice a hard work to confront the darwinisme machine, sorry for my weak english, god bless them.

[@TravelingPhilosopher]

I'm a Muslim too and I have an enormous amount of respect for these gentlemen that have been doing brilliant work in the field of science and philosophy, challenging a worldview of reductive materialism that has been imposed on us in our society, removing any sense of awe and wonder and beauty of life.

[@josepholugbami794]

I pray that the Almighty raises more Stephen Meyers as the likes of John Lennox are exiting the space. A rational defence of the Faith. God bless John Lennox

[@nzadventurefamily3728]

Check out James Tour he's another amazing scientist who also loves his Maker.

[@sherigraham3873]

God seems to bless the world just at the time with special skilled people who fulfill important work like these great scientists. There will be others, not identical, but sufficient. It always does to work that way.

[@TaxEvasi0n]

We are lucky to be alive during the internet era where we can study their content with ease without leaving our home. We can gather our thoughts and favorite quotes on to a word document or write them down, and pray to God to equip us to sufficiently to spread the truth and word of God. These guys among a few hours are inspiring me to do exactly that. Give a defence and an answer for the hope that's in us, in a world where there is greater deception and wickedness than ever.

[@hlulanizitha9920]

John Lennox is one of the biggest reasons I'm studying math and philosophy.

[@graemel3069]

Great Men of God such a blessing to us...!!

[@HmmWhoIsThatGuy]

Now we know that we have a destination. Thanks for motivating us on taking science serious Sirs. We won't disappoint and we wont forget about God. He is with us experiencing the pain with us. Amen.

[@wesandes40]

I love John Lennox, a very intelligent and kindhearted mind. I’m grateful for this interview, and very interested in his movie

[@heroldable]

He's a great man.

[@Alma-tz8km]

The mathematicians prove that a rational intelligible universe could not be made by chance.

[@PhilosurferDude]

Pretty sure the Big Bang and formation of life are both by definition mathematical miracles based on improbability which only goes up exponentially when there’s two highly improbable events

[@vashna3799]

So how come it’s estimated there’s been a star blowing up every single second since the Big Bang? I don’t see much rational intelligence there in this infinite waste of stars.

[@PATRICKJLM]

This doesn't mean it was created for humans. In my opinion, it is silly to look at all so anthropocentric.

[@davidthurman8220]

@@vashna3799 That is how elements are distributed.

[@theHentySkeptic]

@@vashna3799 if you think we are "star stuff", then the stars are not wasted, they are necessary. Like Adam, we are all made of dust but imbued with a soul from God Himself - just as it says in Genesis - written 3500 years ago.

[@dberjian]

Dr. Meyer does a great job as an interviewer. He is able to ask questions at the right time and the questions are pertinent. Both these man are not only brilliant but clearly are imbued with the Holy Spirit.

[@thethinkerscircle]

Both Stephen Meyer and John Lennox are my intellectual heroes. They are brilliant in the way in which they do their work. Like many people, I have also wrestled with the big questions of life. The meaning of life and the problem of suffering. Their books and debates have been very helpful to me. I'm grateful for them and I'm looking forward to the film and I'm also looking forward to Stephen's new book.

[@amandacarmel6084]

They are both incredible human beings! It’s very sad to see people calling them liars and frauds.. it’s so close minded and obnoxious to have these ppl who probably didn’t even graduate high school calling them stupid. It just grinds my gears!!!

[@ricardofolive]

I agree! Indeed, they both are giants of our generation!

[@mistymoor7114]

@@ricardofolive I feel their thinking and initiative will be leading us into a new age where people have a reason to believe, where it is no longer frowned upon, even a new spiritual age. Before discovering Stephen Meyer I was a little in despair about which direction this world of unbelievers could go !

[@donhershfeld9930]

​@@amandacarmel6084 Such wielding of crude ad hominem directed at recognized and accomplished figures, who are perfect strangers to the armchair amateur thinker, is all the latter can muster. Why should anyone else care what their existential opinions are? What bona fides can they ever offer? They are forced to paint themselves into an absurd corner, for if their intellectual betters are NOT 'duped', then they are. Only their own vanity, prevents them from recognizing such folly.

[@08453300222]

Stay safe John, you are a treasure to God, me, your family and so many others.

[@robertl9812]

What an absolute pleasure it is to be able to listen to two of the most honourable scientists living in the world today. God bless them as they continue to help us understand God's thounts. Thank you very much.

[@silversilk8438]

Though God is infinite, and we will never have full knowledge of him here in our mortal state, I agree about them helping us understand God's thoughts in the sense of exploring the book of nature. Except when it comes to revelation there's a relevant passage as well: Check out 1 Corinthians 2:10-12! :) Have an amazing day, by the way!

[@DanielApologetics]

I wish I could LIKE a video with these 2 legends more than once here!

[@flamingswordapologetics]

You bet, I'd love to see both of these guys and throw in Dr. James Tour!

[@08453300222]

@@flamingswordapologetics Yo, and what about Oz Guinness!

[@user-do7et1rm5s]

A Muslim watched this & Enjoyed

[@Romailjohn]

AND NOTICE THEY ARE CHRISTIANS

[@fataltruth6000]

@@Romailjohn because there is only one Truth and you'll find it in the Bible. More compelling arguments can be heard via people like William Lane Craig, James Tour, Frank Turek, Ravi Zachariah and a bunch more.

[@greyjedi4794]

Jesus said He is the truth.

[@user-do7et1rm5s]

Actually, Muslims follow Jesus peace be upon him more than Christians.

[@denisHolySpirit]

Why did you enjoy this?

[@jendernewtrall9846]

Thank you for your diligent and excellent work in the field, Stephen. The respect you show for the people who disagree with you and try their best malign you is a pure example of not only your professionalism but also your character as a Christian. Bravo!

[@georgemiddleast1212]

Greeting from syria , god bless you both

[@lenna9132]

I love John Lennox! God bless him!

[@Yesica1993]

I love how Prof. Lennox seems to know EVERYONE! But he's so humble and down to earth that he never seems to be boasting about it. He is just delightful. This was such an enjoyable discussion with you both.

[@TheRgordon16]

I love these guys. Praise God for raising these men up to educate us about His glorious creation. It is so wonderful to hear scientist acknowledge the fact that God is the source of our existence.

[@Gandoff2000]

I love this. I was taught in America in public school. I loved science and took science classes that I was not even required to take. (but I struggled with the mathematics). I was raised Christian and my faith was at the core of my understanding of my existence. But the teachers (especially in biology oriented classes) assumed and taught that evolution was the only logical theory as to how life began and human kind came to be. This as you can imagine caused a lot of "fights" inside my young mind. I am relieved to know that people with much higher IQs than mine are strong in their faith in God and The Holy Bible. I suspect that many youth are in the same quandary because people they respect are telling them that God is a fairy tale and if they were more intelligent, they would see that. Thank you! May God bless y'all! By the way, if string theory turns out to be true, (strings vibrating), It isn't hard for me to think that God's voice started those original vibrations. :-)

[@jasonpalmer4211]

I'm from Hot Springs Arkansas and so many of us from here absolutely love you guys work we really appreciate it

[@DavidVonR]

I really look up to John Lennox. I have a math background too and I love Christian apologetics.

[@zaharishtonov]

I could listen to these two men all day any day! Both of them brilliant minds!

[@teejah7785]

I see Prof. John Lennox, I click to watch!

[@Yesica1993]

He needs to live a hundred more years. ;)

[@DWHalse]

Great discussion. Being saved 40 years ago, one of my first readings was CS Lewis Miracles. Two years later found me overseas in need of some while confronting supernatural realms most Christians don’t believe in. Well, hundreds of miracles and thousands of healings later, old and looking forward to seeing Him in person, I pray for the reality of the Works of Jesus to continue on for more than just the Remnant. Until you’ve seen your first, you’ve seen nothing!! Bless you Saints.

[@1974jrod]

Steve and John. Two intellectual giants. I've learned so much from both of them, and never met either.

[@truthhunter6155]

Two great minds Humbleness seems to accompany true intellectuals

[@shashikamanoj1160]

God bless both of you

[@theHentySkeptic]

Meyer removed the scales from my eyes with SITC and Lennox introduced me to CSL and the counter arguments to Dawkins and Hawking. I owe my life eternal to the writing of these great men. Of course, the bible is the most important book I have ever read. And as Chuck Missler (& Lennox here) say, we need to take it seriously. I thank them all.

[@jendernewtrall9846]

What is CSL ?

[@jimborowy8160]

Thank you Stephen and John for this uplifing video! Nowadays, it is not expected for this God-given emotion! Science and God have nothing contrary to their existence!

[@ScotsThinker]

Looking forward to seeing this movie.

[@MrJvelazquez77]

I'm new to the game and I've taken a taste for apologetics. I've never seen these two great minds conversate, very exciting!

[@flamingswordapologetics]

Is that you doing the drawing on your channel? If so, you could use that talent in Apologetics.

[@Matthew24.4]

Check out Dr James Tour as well. Agree, Lennox and Meyer are two of my favourites!

[@francescotanzarella5421]

These legends are so encouraging. Thank you guys. How Great Thou art oh God..

[@honawikeepa5813]

How blessed are we to have such wonderful intelligent thinkers sharing their knowledge with us.

[@midrees2195]

Loved every of word of Meyer's book ''Signature in the cell', Love you sir!!

[@brendaw.7597]

Terrific discussion gentlemen, thank you!

[@papahajek5383]

Glad to see learned and Godly men realizing the power of cinema as a means of fulfilling the Great Commission.

[@Sean-op2de]

1st thing I’m doing is sharing this, thankyou both for all yours efforts

[@Socratico1]

Awesome 2 revolutionary minds.....

[@rheacarolinekujur8405]

‘Nature is now marred and defiled by sin,’ but ‘even now, rightly studied and interpreted, she speaks of her Creator.’ ~E.G White

[@annielyst]

Great discussion! Always learn so much from Dr. Lennox.

[@LahSouljacutzup]

Never forget when John Lennox whipped Laurence Krauss ass in the dialogue they had.

[@davidburton5449]

John mentioned Robert ED Clark. I had two of his books in my teens,"The Universe Plan or Acccident" and "Darwin before and After. So very helpful, and l suspect John told me about them when we were on a Scripture Union Easter Hiuseparty together at Shimna House in 1961.

[@sleepwalker7755]

Utmost respect to both of you gentlemen. Thank you for your persistence and time taken to learn.

[@hans8025]

Man I love science and I love faith,God bless you both.

[@bluejysm2007]

Great interview with two brilliant minds scientists Stephen Meyer and John Lennox which I have watched debate and wins against named scientist with a material view of life. This makes me think that ID is extraordinarily strong theory to gain ground for theists that were lost for decades. Looking forward to seeing the movie “against the tide.”

[@freshstartboys3581]

Two extremely intelligent people. I loved when Lennox and Meyer talked about "the primacy of the Word" and how Lennox even told people like Hoyle that matter and energy were derivative. Yet, he can't follow Luther's simple recommendation--which ironically was written to people who couldn't accept that God even took 6 days to create. Luther said: "“When Moses writes that God created heaven and earth and whatever is in them in six days, then let this period continue to have been six days, and do not venture to devise any comment according to which six days were one day. But if you cannot understand how this could have been done in six days, then grant the Holy Spirit the honor of being more learned than you are. For you are to deal with Scripture in such a way that you bear in mind that God Himself says what is written. But since God is speaking, it is not fitting for you wantonly to turn His Word in the direction you wish to go.” I think what makes me so sad is what Lennox said about the atheists--without realizing it applied to those (like Meyer and Lennox) who only accept the Bible as far as their intellect allows them to. Lennox said: "It is so obvious, yet I know many professors who can't see it." Yes, sadly I do, too! And, it is hard to support people who stand against and undermine the full Word of God (Jesus Christ) in order to mesh with and gain or maintain credibility within the pseudoscientific brainwashing and bullying community of evolutionism/bigbangism. The real people standing "against the tide" are what is called young earth creationists, but in actuality are just the Bible-believing creationists. Even, Dawkins recognizes that.

[@marieindia8116]

Read Genesis 2:4 and then tell me what that implies about the length of the "days" God created in.

[@md4843]

love you guys.. you are doing so much for the Kingdom. Hug from Australia

[@Mr_J_Brown]

Great interview! very much looking forward to watching 'against the tide'

[@otaviodipaso6073]

Just Beautiful! From Brazil!

[@erlwilliam1]

Thank you John and Stephen for bringing us into your world view that expounds reality

[@edwardahmed1769]

As a Muslim and scientifically minded person, I find both John Lennox and Stephen Meyer inspiring. Huge respect to them.

[@Bimmerrx7]

The conversation at minute 24. Wow!

[@chriper77]

I could listen to these guys talking all day

[@JWCFB]

Lewis failed algebra? My gosh there is hope for me!

[@Yesica1993]

I know, right? ;)

[@alonciocruz9970]

I never heard brilliant scientists or mathematician like John Lenox discuss about Daniel 8:14 the 2300 days and the 70 weeks of Danile in Daniel 9:24-26..

[@jackjones3657]

So much great biblically based scientific content is available online! People need to record these fabulous interviews and lectures from such great Christian scientists! Dr. Lennox has such great wisdom regarding technology, especially AI.

[@TheShyMusician]

Love both of these individuals. Just seeing them smile and enjoying the conversation is a blessing to witness.

[@davidarchie2370]

41min in brilliant Stephen ... listenning to both of you is an inspiration, B blessed ...as U both R !! kdagxxx

[@AndrewFosterSheff69]

God bless these two brothers in Christ. Doing a MASSIVE service to the coming Kingdom on an apologetics level.

[@hollynichole24]

Stephen Meyer is a personal hero of mine. I was once asked who I would most like to meet in life. The group started naming actors and singers. I named Stephen and everyone was like who is that. I said he is the guy that is cooler than all the people you named.

[@eroceanos]

Guys, I love you both… what a great idea both of you have a talk! Keep up your good work! Greetings from a brother in Christ!

[@mehrdadassar2542]

I know both of these gentlemen and really love and respect them.

[@PorpoiseSeeker]

Here is Daniel Dennett telling us that cognition goes all the way down. I see this as progress

[@themindofbrainx8043]

Thank you guys for this interview. Fascinating!! To God be the Glory!

[@jedphillips9362]

Great interview. I look forward to the movie!

[@Narnian77]

These two men are wonderful gifts to us and for advancing the Kingdom of God🙌

[@francischewe3196]

Two intelliegent scholars and Christians!!!

[@stuarthorner9456]

Any plans for this film to be released in the U.K. and more specifically John Lennox and C.S. Lewis’s home country of Northern Ireland?

[@johnbrown4568]

A wonderful discussion between two 21st century scientists who also happen to be men of Christian faith. Thank you.

[@ANYTHING-qh3bg]

It would be great if you could get more of your colleagues onto the Ben Shapiro Sunday show or onto his channel in general

[@thepilgrim1581]

I only came across Mr John Lennox last week. Great man!... Great speeches... and Great Faith in GOD. 1 John 4:6 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. Amen

[@adg1017]

I love John Lennox so very much. He’s been a huge encouragement to me for a long time. I’ve also had the pleasure of attending three of Steven Meyer’s talks when I lived in Seattle.

[@ThomAnno]

Can't wait to see the movie. Long overdue :)

[@JWCFB]

These guys are two of my favorites always get jacked up listening to them. I can't wait to see this movie! John Lennox as Hercules, this is going to be awesome! 🙄😋🤔😲🤣 Ha ha

[@stephendavies1585]

i realy enjoy hearing Dr Lennox .well done Dr Meyer too.

[@samename1st]

Dr. Lennox and Kevin Sorbo are on my "dinner party" list, after rekindling my interest in apologetics recently. I will be glued to my screen when I watch this.

[@coldwarrior23]

My father loaned me the screwtape letters as a teenager!

[@indupacs.a.6215]

Great to hear this interview! Thanks!

[@succulentsfun]

Two great minds, absolutely beautiful people, our dear brothers in Christ! I am so proud of you! God bless!

[@jamshedhamdard4183]

You guys are doing an amazing and wonderful job. Talking about truth the standing by it is a huge and hard task. May Allah= Yahuwey = the God = the creator be with you

[@alexanderrigby6917]

Ohh my oh my..In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And there is only one God. His name is YHWH. Who said in times past that He spoke to the father's by the prophets. In these last days He has spoken by His Son, Yahshua Messiah as God has purposed. Let us not be deceived. Yahshua said; l can do nothing without the Father and that God is Spirit. And that no one can enter the kingdom or see the kingdom of heaven lest they be born again. Meaning bearing the image of God hence the Holy Spirit. Yahshua ( Jesus) said; l am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one can come to the Father except by Me. There is one God and Father and one Lord Yahshua Messiah ( Jesus Christ ), one faith, and one baptism, let us not be deceived and know the one true God. HalleluYah.

[@infinitrixtv5847]

This will be a great book! God bless you with more wisdom and understanding!

[@jpdancer83]

Amazing ,it all , great to learn this !!!

[@nightoftheworld]

9:21 “The _laws_ of nature don’t actually cause things. They describe patterns that we observe but they’re not the _causes_ of things.” *And* _good_ scientists acknowledge that this is true, that language is a shape which relates a thing. But also that in a deeper semiotic sense, things themselves are slippery chains of signifiers-words referring to words referring to _is’s_ which inform our _oughts._

[@aquillafleetwood8180]

I was raised up, west of Odessa, Texas, where you can see the stars that are for signs! (Genesis 1: 14)

[@Mia-xw1nh]

great interview - thanks

[@jannmutube]

Thanks for sharing your experiences and your faith. God bless you both.

[@wfryer]

Thanks so much for this excellent interview, so wide ranging and inspiring! I appreciate the work you both continue to do for the cause of Christ! :-)

[@johncollins8304]

Very relaxing and inspiring. I know Stephen from some of his books, but John is a great discovery, and I look forward to learning more from him. (And must stop thinking 'Lennon'!) I can't look forward to seeing the film (there's a clue as to why) or talking picture, since I'm not in or of your country. For a rare Catholic rationale for actual creationism against evolution (not just the usual Catholic compromise), search 'hugh owen on the catholic cure for racism ' in videos. It's 3 hours of science, social history, politics, etc. That is, this title doesn't do it justice; after all, 'catholic' is not going to appeal to many. I'd name it 'Evolution vs Science'. You, of course, value explanatory power. This has explanatory power for the last few hundred years. I don't necessarily agree with it all; in fact one of my comments earned me a 'Take your complaints elsewhere', but it's three hours (and twenty minutes! -- see, I lied) of potentially world-changing information. Now to search that world heavyweight championship match, Lennox vs Dawkins!

[@nightoftheworld]

17:33 *old atheism vs. new atheism* “That encounter with Dawkins which was really formidable-almost overnight gave me a worldwide platform, which I’ve managed to retain. And the aggression which I discovered doesn’t characterize all atheists. I learned very rapidly that there‘re still some of the more old style atheists who take the view that they _respect_ but disagree with what I believe. Whereas the aggressive new style is, _we don’t respect what you believe and we will mock it and ridicule it and all this kind of thing._ Which to my mind as an academic that means you’ve lost the argument before you start.”

[@davidmcintosh3468]

That sounds awesome! God bless and I hope the movie goes well!

[@beemer2869]

Love this man. I bought this film and it's absolutely brilliant! Our Lord has given John Lennox a great gift. ❤️🙏🙏

[@Francoisdp82]

Please make the movie accessible outside of the USA. I would live to see it.

[@julieredmond5192]

Julietheframer here, Stephen. You need some Museum glass on the picture behind you😉

[@markhudson2102]

Outstanding discussion by two of my apologetic heroes. Supports our Christian faith as both logical and good science.

[@bunnylady6758]

Iron sharpens iron. Thank you God for providing men like these.😊

[@gerardmoloney9979]

Great discussion gents. Thanks

[@sherraleewoods3668]

So excited to know there is a new book and movie. I never fail to learn something from both these men and thank the Lord for the gift of them both to the world.

[@shilohauraable]

I love these two! I've learned so much from just these two individuals! 💖

[@geobla6600]

A special thanks to both , but especially to Stephen Meyer. Although I'm not a scientist , I've always had had an interest in it. After watching the video "The Information Enigma" , I was completely floored at how lack-less in substance naturalism is at explaining any of their main principles of their Ideology. Yes , science demonstratively shows a Creator and Intelligence if you rationally evaluate it without bias or impiety.

[@annelenander7387]

What a fantastic interview. I love you both!