James White's Stance on Eastern Orthodoxy

[@brotheraugustine]

“I don’t understand it” would have been shorter.

[@hackinggamerxd]

@Southern Israelite Begging for attention, spamming the same link to a playlist no one gives a shit about.

[@orthodoxempire697]

@Southern Israelite no one gives a shit about you, you cult leader

[@orthodoxempire697]

@Southern Israelite everyone can refute you, anti-trinitarian heretic. you believe that God is a physical being LOL. no one will take you seriously

[@nikolaj4925]

Dude, I‘m so appreciative of how many orthodox are responding to this stupid guy in the video!

[@sageantone7291]

"I have no refutation" would have been shorter for you.

[@emperor7226]

Would love to see James White debating orthodox like Peter Heers or Jay Dyer. From an orthodox of Germany.

[@rintakahashi2448]

@Ναζωραῖος So people outside can see what we're all about? If we don't clarify our differences outsiders will get mixed up easily.

[@Joshua-se4qp]

I’d pay $100 minimum to see that debate! Please make it happen Dr White

[@1776iscool]

The problem is that Orthodox tend not to think debates are profitable.

[@theodore8178]

He doesn't have time

[@theodore8178]

@@1776iscool We have people who have been trying to get him to debate us.

[@SetTheCaptivesFree4797]

I just left Protestantism to become Eastern Orthodox, has been a huge blessing! The lense I see through now is so clear, I can’t believe how blind I was.

[@SuperSamdog1]

Protestant has lost the way, I too have joined Orthodoxy.

[@SetTheCaptivesFree4797]

@@SuperSamdog1 wow amazing brother! Blessed to hear, many more to come. Blessings on your journey 🙏🏼

[@juanisaac5172]

Congratulations. Protestanism is self defeating. Goes to much into personal feelings of what scripture means.

[@sageantone7291]

Yes, we know there are many heretics out there.

[@felixguerrero6062]

Every year 100s of thousand of Orthos in Romania, Russia, Ethiopia convert to Protestantism (some years it's as much as a million). A few alienated larpers in the US defecting to a theology they dont even understand is sad, but largely meaningless.

[@jaredvizzi8723]

I’m beginning to think that the “Western” mindset is a huge part of the problem. We’re losing our ability to perceive God correctly due to an over emphasis on Empiricism and logical argumentation. Hence we see in the Protestant world book after book emphasizing the need to understand Scripture in its ancient context and a movement away from systematic theology to more Biblical theology. I am still part of the Protestant tradition, but I’m finally starting to understand why someone might not be. We ironically find ourselves in a tradition that tells us to reject tradition and the fruit of that mindset is clearly seen in the endless multiplication of denominations.

[@bolshoefeodor6536]

Bam!

[@sparkomatic]

100%.

[@SAOProductions1955]

OK. You may be part of a "Protestant" tradition that rejects tradition (define that please) but in my Protestant "tradition" we do not reject tradition. What we do do however, is bring everything under the prism of Scripture and that's the point Mr. White makes here. So I would suggest that instead of remaining where you are in a tradition that rejects tradition, find one that doesn't. And it remains to be stated again, the Eastern mindset is foreign to the faith that was and for all given to the Saints. And how do we know that - simply by what the Scriptures have to say on any given topic.

[@PaulDo22]

@@SAOProductions1955 That's exactly what he said in the original post. ALL Protestants think they see things through the Prism of Scripture and ALL 30,000 sects are wrong.

[@SAOProductions1955]

@@PaulDo22 - That's not an accurate assessment. You're take is a confusion of the Protestant principle of Sola Scriptura and that of the common misunderstanding of most as SOLO Scriptura. There is a vast difference to be made between the two.

[@johncox2284]

The Orthodox Church in Russia is definitely not dead folk religion. It is a vibrant, growing church that is reclaiming what was lost starting in 1918. P

[@johncox2284]

@@pennsyltuckyreb9800 i would highly recommend going to a Divine Liturgy if you haven't done so yet. The Orthodox Church has faithfully preserved a beautiful liturgy that makes the Church a place where heaven and earth meet.

[@claesvanoldenphatt9972]

@@pennsyltuckyreb9800 you better believe church life changes! What do you think worship looked like 300 years ago? Yes, much was the same, but details must change in order that the faith may stay the same and authentic. Accidents versus Essence. Don’t believe it’s a museum.

[@TheJackoloco]

not only that, but Orthodoxy was even vibrant in the soviet union when it went underground (literally)

[@mwidunn]

If the Russian church continues to remain in separation from St. Peter, the solid Rock of Christ's Church (Irmos for Feast of SS. Peter & Paul, Jun. 29), whom Christ chose as the rock of Faith and leader of the Apostles (Kontakion, Synaxis of the 12 Apostles, Jun. 30), then its loss remains.

[@claesvanoldenphatt9972]

@@mwidunn your prooftexting notwithstanding even the Vatican is not buying that bs

[@blade7506]

Orthodox culture is amazing, being immersed in the things of God constantly is amazing. Prayers constantly, attending liturgy and youth groups, fasting often, learning more about the Bible and God everyday, as well as evangelism with friends is everything I could’ve asked for. I didn’t find this same depth and intensity of Christian lifestyle in Evangelical Churches, which is why I left. Since I’ve been immersed in the culture, I’ve really seen Holy Spirit work within me: revealing my sins to me, allowing me to break free of them, changing my way of thought and speech, and overall being a new creature in Christ however that might look. I think having Church life adapted into culture is necessary since we are to live our lives praying without ceasing and constantly pleasing God. Otherwise, Church life becomes a hobby like how it is in the West.

[@alexjoneschannel]

The relevant question is, is the Orthodox church the one true church? The Orthodox says those not in the Orthodox church not not Christians (saved by the blood of Christ)

[@imaginedreamingofficial3432]

@@alexjoneschannel simply not true. Ask Josiah Trenham

[@JesusProtects]

What about bible culture? I couldn't care less about their numerous unbiblical teachings and idolatry rituals.

[@JesusProtects]

@@imaginedreamingofficial3432 Joshua is not the whole of the eastern orthodox church. So what? We have one exception? Who cares? EO is just little idolatrous Rome, that's it. Anyone following those churches do it because of man made traditions and because the ritual part appeals to their flesh, making them feel holy and part of something greater. Basically you are deceiving yourself to believe the big lie.

[@imaginedreamingofficial3432]

@@JesusProtects Who is Joshua? Also would you say Martin Luther was a good reformer and did the body of christ good with his reformation? Are you reformed?

[@zekedog1990]

Somehow I feel like this is going to turn out to be a good pitch for why someone should join orthodoxy lol

[@bolshoefeodor6536]

Amen! The entire edifice of modern Churchianity is built on Roman magistrate legalism. And it is woefully ill-equipped to deal with an aggressive and prosyletising secular state, Islam, and modern philosophical materialism. The entire discipline of apologetics only works inside the context of Roman legalism (works great for trials and punishment, doesn't work worth a damn and building an enduring and flourishing church!). Protestantism is a heretical faith system almost entirely built by and for the intelligentsia. It holds virtually no day-to-day life appeal for lay people. In order to attract and hold lay people, it offers 'flavour of the day' expediency and comfort: the typical protestant services I've witnessed (from my time as a Protestant heretic), consists of a rock concert, followed by a self-help testimonial session, followed by a lecture on the need for 'flexibility' and constant updating of the church's messaging. Such a 'church' is a self-aggrandising social group. It will be crushed under the weight of the modern liberal secular state. You'll see. Once you give the humanist materialists and inch, they will grab the entire acreage. The Eastern Church has seen all this before. Lenin knew full well the power of the experiential original church. Which is why there are so many Orthodox martyrs from the Bolshevik period. By way of a numerical comparison, there are a mere handful of Roman Catholic martyrs for the era of Fascism and Nazism. The Roman Church has always focused on expediencies of the age. Protestantism inherited this tendency full-bore. And the reason for this is the bewildering argument/counter-argument edifice on which these churches tried to build themselves. Absent the flock's ability to follow all this, they turn to 'other methods' of appeal. Deep down, the all want to be Orthodox, but they can't, because they reject the concept of paradosis, and are currently excommunicated from the Chruch. Get into the Church. Abandon the nonsense of Sola Scriptura. Experience the Orthodox liturgy, fasting, and Saints. Get baptised correctly. Accept Christmation. You will never be the same again.

[@zekedog1990]

@@bolshoefeodor6536 In short…yes lol

[@TheDrummaBen]

Interesting that you say Protestantism is all about self improvement and cap off with saying we should be EO because we’ll never be the same again….also if we want to use martyrdom numbers as a way to measure the legitimacy of a faith then Islam has us all beat.

[@jamescosetti5460]

@@TheDrummaBen being a Muslim is Knock off of eastern orthodox Christian. Muhamad was taught by an eastern orthodox monk. and he went just like everyone else who has there own understanding of scripture does. and goes and preaches that idea. but the biggest thing for Christ is Unity between his people. and because of western style Christianity to argue every thought they have we actually take reverence to the gospel and we dont want to turn from what has been taught from the beginning.

[@TheDrummaBen]

@@jamescosetti5460 What is the Eastern Orthodox gospel?

[@TheLincolnrailsplitt]

"The liturgy and the prayers of the Church are the systematic theology" of Eastern Orthodoxy. Dr White is spot on. 🙏☦

[@JesusProtects]

It should be the bible alone. Not impressed. Another false church.

[@deVeresd.Kfz.1515]

@@JesusProtects There's the false dichotomy. There's no such only-option that, "You only have to do scriptures, or you're wrong because Christianity is only about the Bible." What is the Bible and where did you get it from? How do you know you're interpreting them correctly to prove protestantism true on these categories: (epistemically, philosophically, paradigmatically, and justification)? If you appeal to Bible to prove your hermeneutics, then you fall under logical fallacies like circular reasoning, no true scotsman, and appeal to ignorance

[@HonkeyHero18]

​@@JesusProtects Lol, weird that you protestants think you're so high and mighty with the correct theology when your "correct theology" took 1500 years to show up in the world. all of the earliest 1st through 8th century Christians all believed in the same thing which is everything the Orthodox believe. You're going to have to make a pretty dang good argument for how on earth Christianity was so wrong for 1500 years since the events of the book of Acts, and afterwards.

[@stackofbooks7306]

@@HonkeyHero18 they have no argument. They invented their own church and now lecture everyone what their dog Luther taught them

[@linak7155]

The Maker of heaven & earth has appointed a Day when He will straighten us all out. There's all this arrogance emanating from learned men in pointy hats who go around insisting their brand of Christianity is the authentic. .The question should be which was the ecclesia Jesus established. In most ways, the Orthodox Church & the Catholic Church are two sides of the same coin. Man made edicts. I have read through many reliable sources that lend support to the idea that the original ecclesia, (called out ones) was composed of those Jews in the first century who first came to belief in the Messiah. The message was disseminated by way of the Jews, then the Greeks. The Church as a whole has strayed from its original teachings. It has added n taken away, something the Creator explicitly & strictly cautions men not to do.. What we see today is a counterfeit; A mix of philosophy & biblical half - truths. Jesus said that a remnant would remain throughout every generation. Those who would persevere in the faith & keep His commands. There is a remnant and it has nothing to do with organized religion. I am one of those who believes there are authentic believers even within the confines of various denominations. No one owns the truth but He. YHVH is good and merciful!

[@theseeker2595]

There is only one thing you guys need to know about orthodoxy. It is hard. VERY, VERY HARD to follow. You think you have faith, the ask for his grace to act upon your faith accordingly. Being orthodox is an every day strugle for the rest of your life, you pick your cross and march with it for the rest of your life. It is a continues war between your mind against your body.

[@nikokapanen82]

It is hard in a very wrong way, full of man made rituals and spiritually dead religious dogmas, like standing during the whole congregation, saying dozens and even hundreds of times same learned repetitive prayers, keeping pieces of dead corpses in churches which suppose to have magical powers, bowing down in worship to Mary and saints, wearing weird clothing and praying in a weird low pitched voices.

[@Skullnaught]

@@nikokapanen82 the christianity of the apostles would be very strange to you then

[@nikokapanen82]

@@Skullnaught None of what is happening in the Orthodox Church, what i mentioned, was practiced by the Apostles in the Bible.

[@blade7506]

@@nikokapanen82 it’s spiritually challenging, but the results i’ve gotten in my spiritual life are immense. i’m OO tho so there might be some differences

[@AreJay_]

@@nikokapanen82 I would say the key difference between us and followers of orthodoxy is that we don’t see our walk with Christ as burdensome. Yes, it’s not always easy and there will be trials and suffering for His name sake. But we do it gladly because of the grace and mercy shown to us. Repentance and faith go hand in hand. You cant have one without the other. And once we come to that point we dont need to work for our salvation any longer, we do it out of gratitude and appreciation for HIS love and mercy towards us. We no longer rely on ourselves or our works anymore but put our trust and faith in CHRIST and what HE achieved on the cross ❤️✝️

[@SetTheCaptivesFree4797]

I’ve never seen James white stumble over a topic like he does here.

[@sageantone7291]

Still waiting for a refutation.

[@Shggy2dopalas]

“ we are western thinkers” yes and that’s why the churches are flying pride flags now, you strengthened the eastern traditional idea of worship with that statement alone

[@VikingMakery]

What a terrible argument. Just because some western church attendees are leaving Biblical Christianity behind for progressive values means we should just drop western churches or something? We could say the same for eastern churches as well.

[@snatchednefkin]

By that he means western Christians, to include Rome and protestants, structure their theological debate in the framework of Greek-Enlightenment philosophy and the eastern Christians don't so it can be difficult to debate with them because their theological structure came out of an entirely different philosophical framework

[@anointeddreamer]

That’s a misdiagnosis. The increasing presence of pride flags and the advocacy for redefining the traditional nuclear family structure reflect a broader shift away from conventional Western values. This trend towards embracing more progressive ideologies marks a move towards leftist principles, signaling changes in societal norms towards socialism and secularism, and a departure from traditional Western values.

[@JohnSmith-zs1bf]

there's plenty of new age eastern thought leading to sexual and spiritual immorality, pride and sin. Eastern nor western thinking are solutions in and of themselves.

[@StevenRotelli]

If modern liberalism is the fault of Protestants why isn’t communism the fault of Eastern Orthodox?

[@Roger-il8iw]

I can’t trust your judgment after seeing that sweater. Calvinism is just a theory at best. Edit: didn’t expect so many likes. I will say this. Roger is not my real name. I work as a detective who investigates child crimes. I have looked at Calvinism objectively, and found it to be nonsense. If you are a calvanist reading this, I encourage you to examine the other side objectively. James white lost his debate with Leighton flowers HANDILY and whines about it all the time. I know how difficult it is to question a deeply help belief. I attended a Calvinist church I loved, but couldn’t stand the inconsistencies. Calvinism is false. God bless and feel free to ask any questions. Two great non-Calvinists are Mike winger and Leighton flowers. Look into their stuff!

[@motebangh.motebang9398]

😂😂😂😂

[@hushai5154]

My thoughts exactly, caused me to convert.

[@Ioannikios174]

Oh, stop.

[@Mo-sk7xo]

cheeeeel😄 it's actually pretty Hard lol

[@ChristianLight1746]

🤣😂🤣😂

[@1stdebunker]

"Critiques" of Orthodoxy throw me so much further into my Orthodox faith 😂. Bless James White ❤️☦️

[@BonusHole]

Funny - thats exactly what Catholics say...

[@NicBob89]

Maybe his “critiques” are just inaccurate 😂

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

that's also what atheists say

[@jordangarvin9282]

You sound hurt. Wanna talk about it?

[@dananderson6697]

@@NicBob89 More likely, the Orthodox/Catholic (because really, most of the critiques of the two revolve around identical issues) simply reject everything without thinking about it first. Their tradition dictates that they can't be wrong, after all!

[@OrthodoxJourney359]

I became Orthodox because of you James, thanks. I know you won’t but you should debate Jay Dyer. Orthodox theology refutes Calvinism and other heresies that came out of the reformation.

[@easternmcg]

Hey brother, I thought I saw a comment of yours that said you became a Lutheran.

[@OrthodoxJourney359]

@@easternmcg I was attending a Lutheran Church because I couldn’t find a Eastern Orthodox Church near me. Praise be to God, I found one an hour from my house and I attend my first service tomorrow. Plus I was being stubborn and fighting against what I knew in my heart was true 🥴. It’s been a two year journey and fighting like a dog but I finally gave into what I know is right. God bless.

[@drummerboy737]

@@OrthodoxJourney359 and so what you are saying is orthodoxy is not calvanist, is it then affirming arminianism? What is in summary the enlightened view. Why do people not just help others? I dont want to hear about hearts and many others agree that "a mans heart" is very untrustworthy.

[@mwidunn]

Two words: . . . Cyril . . . Lucar.

[@OrthodoxJourney359]

@@drummerboy737 Calvinism and Arminianism are heresy. Rome and Protestantism are both in many heresies because they don’t recognize the Energy and essence distinctions. Eastern Orthodoxy is true Christianity.

[@zeljanasparkes2535]

Well, at least you admitt you are out of your depth here.

[@صلعمالمنكوح]

@Southern Israelite dumbfuck

[@sageantone7291]

You don't know the difference between your & you're.

[@erikrohr4396]

@@sageantone7291 ?

[@michailkazakos23]

Thinking Orthodox: Understanding and Acquiring the Orthodox Christian Mind here is your book by Dr. Eugenia Scarvelis Constantinou. Also read For the life of the World by Alexander Schmemann

[@ValKitsakis]

Dr. Eugenia Scarvelis Constantinou is a brilliant scholar and very knowledgable. She has helped me clarify many things around Orthodoxy

[@andrewselbyphotography]

It seems like you've made up your mind about Orthodoxy without even knowing much about it.

[@jeremiahboddy8262]

It’s Pope less Catholicism.

[@andrewselbyphotography]

@@jeremiahboddy8262 no..... that's Protestantism haha

[@jeremiahboddy8262]

@@andrewselbyphotography how you figure?

[@andrewselbyphotography]

@@jeremiahboddy8262 in structure orthodoxy is similar to Catholicism, but theologically Protestants and Catholics are way closer than Orthodox and Catholics

[@jeremiahboddy8262]

@@andrewselbyphotography flush that out for me.

[@KW-bf2qo]

Yes, we need more literature on this topic that is easy to understand/for the lay person.

[@Acek-ok9dp]

K Wojo Well, there is but it misrepresents it eventually.

[@saenzperspectives]

K Wojo you could listen to this podcast series in chronological order to get a good ***basic*** understanding of orthodoxy and how it views other Christian sects and non-christian sects: www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy

[@travissharon1536]

Lol. Good luck, I serious recommend just reading the Bible, and trusting that God says what he means, and that you don't need some special interpretation of words like all. It makes Christianity way more satisfying!

[@NicBob89]

There is plenty of literature. Speak to a priest at a church… you can look up the church fathers and the lives of the saints. If you would like to know more about orthodoxy, have a look at Patristix, which I really enjoy watching. Everything used in the liturgies have explanations associated with them…

[@ryrocks9487]

He’s basically just saying he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and hopes that there is someone who can make arguments to try to justify his beliefs.

[@theoremus]

Maybe the Lord God will use Hank Hanagraf to inform us.

[@ryrocks9487]

@@theoremus Maybe!

[@NicholasBalducci-w5l]

Pretty much.

[@Jess-cw6tf]

I wish there was a discussion between Fr. Josiah Trenham and James White

[@kansashoneybadger7899]

Not in the same league but Fr. Trenham would still be gracious.

[@silenciummortum2193]

As a soon to be convert to Orthodoxy (ROCOR) and a former almost Pentecostal minister (Assemblies of God), I can absolutely understand his points when I was first on my way to Orthodoxy. My only critique is the part of it being a “folk” religion and “dead nominalism”. Having been to MANY orthodox churches, I have seen firsthand so many strong and vibrant parishoners that STAY in the community whose families stay in the church. Far more than many protestant families I have known my whole life.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Yes, but the pull is, sadly, largely cultural rather than Christological.

[@silenciummortum2193]

@@KristiLEvans1 Not even remotely true in my case and that of many other converts I have met on my way.

[@LightOfAllMankind]

@@KristiLEvans1 what are you talking about? People stay in or convert to Orthodoxy out of true love for God and the Truth regarding His Love for us. This argument about cultural identity is so subjective, passé, and hypocritical. And when it comes to Christology, and the Trinity while we’re at it, the Orthodox actually get it right while Catholics and Protestants fall way behind in understanding when they’re not falling into explicit heresy.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@LightOfAllMankind I’m sorry, that is just ignoring reality. In the west, conversion to orthodoxy because of heritage may be passé, but countries/cultures like the United States, for instance, aren’t the only ones that exist. In places like Greece, Eastern Europe, etc., there are mega-millions of people who are born into orthodoxy.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@LightOfAllMankind and, Mariology and praying to saints is a show stopper for me. I wish I could convert, but I can’t. That’s not “truth”. God gave us the canon, and nowhere does He instruct us, or show us examples of prayer to saints who’ve passed to heaven. Nowhere. If He didn’t instruct something that central to these churches, it’s the churches that are in error, not Him. I wish I could convert. Can’t do it.

[@johncox2284]

Cross pollination between Greek Orthodox and the West? Is he kidding? He is trying to tap dance around something he knows nothing about. He's trying to explain the Orthodox faith through reformed Protestant glasses.

[@TheCopticParabolanos]

The Greek Church was heavily influenced by western theology and modes of thinking. There were many Byzantine Thomists, Pat. Gennadius Scholarius for instance.

[@SAOProductions1955]

Dr. White knows enough about the biblical witness to the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints to speak to the issue of how divergently dead Eastern Orthodoxy has become from the vital message that is found in and by Jesus Christ as recorded in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures by the prophets and the Apostles. That much is for certain. He knows enough of the real Gospel that he knows a false gospel when he sees it.

[@johncox2284]

@@SAOProductions1955 what do you mean by divergently dead?

[@tarhunta2111]

What are you talking about?

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@johncox2284 I assume that person means they think the orthodox church departed from the true faith and became dead as a church. That's my interpretation/assumption. Maybe there's another explanation.

[@SG-hd1qg]

There are plenty of nominal protestants.

[@Ioannikios174]

Far too many. I used to be one. Now by God's grace I have been received into the Church.

[@hushai5154]

True, it is a foolish argument. The topic is belief systems, not people's failure to live up to them. That problem is rampant in all branches of Christianity.

[@Mikolai206]

Imagine being so reformed you miss The Way.

[@MrGb1965]

Who is he to judge whose hearts are changed or not?

[@kirillkrugliakov1463]

"Meh it's something from the East they have another way of thinking out there. Except for Greeks, they are clearly the West, cuz duh have you watched "300"? Totally West. Anyways, it's East, they put their pants on over their heads." This "western eastern thinking" is SUCH an American thing to say. I noticed it back in college - a highly educated professor starts a statement with words like "in Europe..." and then the craziest myth comes out of their mouth. If it's "in Eastern Europe" then even crazier bullshit follows.

[@markskitsky8540]

Greetings from Ukraine, Dr James White. Really would appreciate you coming to our country again!

[@KristiLEvans1]

I understand it’s quite beautiful there. God bless you.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@KristiLEvans1 I think these comments were written before the Russian invasion? Not to say ukraine isn't still beautiful

[@jamesandrews3570]

"When Christianity becomes a cultural thing, it dies." The Greeks may disagree with that statement. He really does show his ignorance on what orthodoxy is. Lord have mercy.

[@mtalk828]

I too was wondering about his words. What a negative viewpoint he has on Orthodoxy. Can not Christianity be evangelized through cultures?

[@willtheperson7224]

Yeah as if Russia since the Post Soviet collapse and it's return to Orthodoxy has made it dead. XD

[@whosestone]

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. (Repeat until death) There you go. That's the basics.

[@hvedlj]

I wonder how many protestant people did exactly what Mr. White is suggesting and ended up becoming an Eastern Orthodox convert. It seems like I have heard numerous testimonies over the last few years that started out with someone wanting to do a comprehensive comparison between orthodoxy and Protestantism and they saw more truth in orthodoxy and converted.

[@FirstnameLastname-sw1ry]

Protestantism is falling apart. And the Orthodox are picking up the broken pieces and healing.

[@sageantone7291]

Not as many as the reverse. Another great error heretics make is when they universalize their experiences.

[@theneverending9319]

Dude people are always converting from the three

[@theneverending9319]

@Phil Andrew Orthodoxy is all over the place there is no strict belief on some doctrines. You basically treat early fathers past the disciples as if they had infallible understanding.

[@drummerboy737]

@@theneverending9319 can't we just get some summaries and less dung flinging. People have an interest

[@bowrudder899]

I read the NT and I don't see hesychasm, I don't see energies, I don't see icons, I don't see the liturgy (which has changed again and again), I don't see deification (as opposed to sanctification), I don't see national churches. But I do see substitutionary atonement. And I do see that EO's ignore the councils that they are embarrassed by.

[@jameskeys971]

Pastor Joshua Schooping has an excellent YT channel. He is a former Orthodox priest with two graduate degrees from an Orthodox seminary.

[@djpodesta]

Thank you. I have been beginning to believe that the differences between the Christian branches are in fact *cultural differences* as much as they are doctrinally different.

[@ionictheist349]

Yes they are doctrinal and not much of cultural

[@djpodesta]

@@ionictheist349 I am not sure how deeply you look around you, but I am sure that you don’t think that an European Catholic has the same cultural attitude of; say; a Sub-Saharan African or South American Catholic? Or an Orthodox believer has the same Christian culture/attitude as an English Protestant? Why some US Christians right leaning and some US Christians left leaning; even within the same denomination? Doctrinal belief is shaped by Cultural Biases and Traditions. That is why there are so many similar; yet different religions all around the world.

[@ionictheist349]

@@djpodesta I am not ignoring the existence of cultural difference but trynna show that there are more differences between eastern and western christianity than u might think.

[@djpodesta]

@@ionictheist349 We seem to be agreeing with each other except for the ‘why’ the doctrinal differences have grown apart, yet both branches (Eastern and Western) began from the same starting point… and Scripture.

[@ionictheist349]

@@djpodesta To understand that we should look at the oriental orthodox bc they were anathemized in 5th C and where away from the rest of Christendom. And the fact that they see the catholic dogmas such as filioque, immaculate conception, papacy and more as heretical doctrines and innovations shows that they are things developed through time in the catholic church.

[@wessbess]

This would be a great book project for you James

[@FaithfulComforter]

He just said he does not have time 🤣

[@craigime]

He does, he just doesnt want to​@FaithfulComforter

[@bradspitt3896]

I think Jonathan and Mattiue(?) pageau are good at making eastern thought accessible. I know I'm not Calvinist but still unsure about EO.

[@MrKneeV]

A few points: 1) "Energies" is a very simple topic. A better way to say it according to how we use words today would be "activities". On the one hand, we cannot fathom or know God's eternal Divine essence, but on the other hand God has made Himself known to us, and we experience God through His interactions with us. Just as there is One Spirit but many and seemingly varied gifts, there is One God and many seemingly varied activities or "energies" of God. 2) Many saints have commented on the reality of nominalism and have urged us to remain steadfast in our Christian lives. Yes, Orthodox people can become nominal, and that occurs within every group. We have known this for as long as the Christian faith had existed, and we read all about Israel's nominalism in the Old Testament. While that is technically a valid criticism of Orthodox people, it is also a universal criticism of every denomination and religion. It is always a danger. 3) As for accusations of things like "Nestorianism", those accusations aren't pulled out of thin air. When someone like the late R.C. Sproul affirms the ancient creeds and councils and their associated Christology, but then turns around and says that he recoils at the claim that "God died on the Cross", he reveals that no matter what he says about historical Christology, he is fundamentally a Nestorian in his ACTUAL outlook. And that is not an isolated occurance. That is why those accusations exist - because we encounter actual ancient heresies in Protestant and Evangelical belief systems.

[@OrthoNektarios]

I used to be Calvinist because of James white and Jeff durbin. Both were also my pastors for a short time. Had a couple of James whites books as well. Followed them both closely and the work they did. But after actually getting into the basic foundations of Protestantism compared to orthodoxy foundation. Protestantism has a foundation of sand. It’s now so easy for me to refute Protestantism. That’s how shaky it was and I never knew. I was so ignorant and always calling orthodoxy heretics over and over even while I was preaching on the streets as well while traveling. I’m glad i actually looked at history and just stopped relying on people like James white and just going and asking questions on the other side and trying to understand and try to confirm what they said as well through history. Thanks James but this whole video you made honestly had no refutation. Just a bunch of assertions and no actual argument.

[@Bunfire123]

I used to be a Calvinist because of *insert two humans* says it all really. You’re following man. And you enjoy following man made traditions and assurance hence the transition into orthodoxy.

[@AllforOne_OneforAll1689]

So what was the easy refutation of protestantism?

[@calebconleymusic]

Please explain how Protestantism is easily refuted. We both know it is not brother. There was profound reasons for the change.

[@OrthoNektarios]

@@Bunfire123 I didnt know that traditions that christ gave to the church was man made? kinda self refutes yourself because you have to be that ignorant to not know that every protestant has a tradition. and i will quote James and Durbin on this “You need a tradition because if you do not have a tradition then you are basically subjected by all tradtions” at least they can understand that. Plus our tradition was handed down since like the first century. You can read Iraneaus on that btw.

[@OrthoNektarios]

@@calebconleymusic Well i hope you know that if you start to reform the church you basically have to deny all the coucnils and canon laws of those canons that church died for in ordert to combat heresy. Which then means you have to admit that for 1500 years as soon as the apostles died, there as no more “one church” or true church but that the church went into apostasy. which goes against what Jesus said that “the gates of hell will never prevail against the church” “The spirit will guide you into all truth” (speaking to the apostles who christ used to build his church) Paul says that “the church is the foundation of truth” and also we have “one baptism and one faith” (not over a thousand christian faiths or multiple baptisms) So me personally and i could point out more verses, i would not call jesus a liar but that he fullfills his promise. Also id add that you can read the church fathers as well especailly iranesus who shows how the chruch was opperating in the second century. and many church fathers who show the same hiearchy and liturgical worship up to the today. Protestants do not have that. Instead its a concert every Sunday. Also we do not have the same canon of scripture, because though there were many texts going around, no church father agreed on a canonical list of scripture until the 6th century. You get the first suggested list which was used as the canon in 367 AD by St.Athansius as well. Protestants follow Luthers canon not the early church canon. Which also contradicts sola scripture because that presupposes that you have the right canon, but scripture does not give you a entire list of the canon. You actually need to rely on church tradition in order to get a canon ie rely on a council. and by the way, there was no church father that taught “scripture alone”

[@WhiteBraveheart1]

It must pain Dr. James White to see all these great evangelicals and Protestants convert to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

[@spencerburgess3689]

Yeah because it is people abandoning the gospel (if they actually believe everything these religions teach).

[@spencerburgess3689]

It is a very sad thing

[@WhiteBraveheart1]

@@spencerburgess3689 Seriously....the best and brightest of Protestantism swim the Tiber.

[@gigachad2221-g4n]

@@WhiteBraveheart1 It's probably because they're not ignorant of Church history and the Church Fathers. From there, it doesn't take long to realize that Protestantism is not authentic Christianity. It's a mess of loosely connected man-made sects beginning in the 1500s.

[@Gruenders]

After intense years of study, I’m leaving.

[@davidrasta7639]

To Dr James White : Orthodoxy exist in the U.S. as well , not only in easten Europe . To better undestand Orthodoxy from a western way of thinking you should check Father Josiah Trenham from California . ARCHPRIEST JOSIAH TRENHAM was ordained to the Holy Priesthood in 1993, and was awarded the Ph.D. in Theology from the University of Durham, England, in 2004. Fr. Josiah serves as an instructor in and on the Board of Advisors of the Ss. Cyril and Athanasius Orthodox Institute in San Francisco. He is an adjunct professor of theology at St. Katherine College in Encinitas, Ca. (2010-present), and was an Adjunct Professor of History at California Baptist University (2003-2010). He has Ph.D. in Theology and can have a intellectual discussion with you (another PhD ) . Father Josiah Trenham was a former presbyterian in Southern California .

[@sackettsnodgrass9260]

I honestly can see the difficulty in his speech. He does not understand Eastern Christianity at all. However, it seems as if he is condemning the Eastern mindset while glorifying the Western mindset (remember Christianity came out of the East, not the West). I would highly recommend anyone to read Kallistos Ware. Eastern Orthodoxy is not hard to understand at all. This is written by a former Pentecostal in the Southern United States.

[@AED365]

Amen brother.

[@trevorwhite4943]

I think orthodoxy ( i am not orthodox) is very intimidating because (at least how I view it) of the leaning more towards the mysteries and the unknown things of God to where as most Protestants just want solid 100% answers

[@route2033]

@@trevorwhite4943 could also be because they don't believe in salvation by faith alone which is the whole gospel .. so there's that

[@hdgskevdb]

@@route2033 It's believed that we are save by grace through faith but that if theosis is an unavoidable part of the lifetime of a Christian if there is indeed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The idea isn't that you confess with only your mouth but with your heart as well which then leads to an imitation and love for Christ aside from the law of Moses and the law of sin and death. This doesn't mean some Talmudic bean counting where you do (x) number of things in order to be saved but a genuine life in Christ.

[@LightOfAllMankind]

@@route2033 The Gospel of Our Lord never says that a person is saved by faith alone. So there’s that as well.

[@tcritchfeld481]

Here is a simplistic example: Is communion the literal body and blood and Christ or a symbol? Roman Catholic: The bread and wine literally becomes the body and blood of Christ. Protestant: it's a symbol. Orthodox: Yes

[@ChumX100]

Orthodox: Yes. And much more...

[@superpeaceloveunity]

“God became one of us, so that He might make us what He is.”

[@SG-hd1qg]

Well Christianity is an Eastern religion.

[@dathip]

Christianity originated in the middle east and africa. This is common knowledge.

[@acolytes777]

If you want to shoehorn mysticism to christianity, that's a different deal.

[@sarban1653]

Africa? No, only in the Mideast / Mediterranean.

[@dathip]

@@sarban1653 uhhhh.no both regions

[@sarban1653]

@@dathip Christianity didn't originate in Africa. It originated in the Levant / Middle East. Are you high? It came to Africa from the Middle East.

[@mwidunn]

Hmm, let's see . . . : a Christian community with 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom and practice vs. one man's own personal Christian "ministry" of several decades. Gal. 1:8

[@felixguerrero6062]

Orthodoxy is a construct of late antique, early medieval Byzantium, little relation to Jesus and the Apostles.

[@mwidunn]

@J DV The "proof" is the big book, which the guy in the video didn't create, but which he assumes is worth reading from.

[@theneverending9319]

Dude early fathers were mostly using their own wisdom to understand scripture lol that's why different schools have different hermeneutics

[@mwidunn]

@@theneverending9319 "I [Paul] do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him" (Eph. 1:17). Yes -- LOL.

[@urawesome4670]

James White uses sound exegesis from the scriptures. I have yet to see this from RCC and orthodox apologists. In the matter of fact I have seen some shun the original language of the scriptures.

[@Fart_Fella]

That is a cool sweater lol

[@ausonius100]

I would say that there is no doubt far less reading to be done in understanding Orthodoxy than in understanding Roman Catholicism. The gargantuan roman system and its very many changes (and very many theologians) from the high middle ages to modern times is simply more than a life long study.

[@socialparadigma]

I would say that you would say that because the roman side of christianity is easier to access in the west. From my research, the amount of hermeneutics, theological analysis and exegesis...is easily comparable between the two. The difference is that in the East you have a way more fragmented system, with every country and church contributing in different languages etc.

[@ausonius100]

@@socialparadigma I think that Eastern Orthodoxy is the simpler system of the two. It is unburdened by the heavy theologies of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas and of the vast complicated church legislation of the papacy.

[@socialparadigma]

@@ausonius100 True, i mean i get what you're saying. However in the East you have a lot of Councils that established dogma, a lot of reforms from the Greek, Constantinopole and the Russian Church propagating all over the place and at difference times. But yeah, Augustine and St. Thomas did put a lot in there :)

[@ausonius100]

@@socialparadigma Oh sure, Orthodoxy has its own complicated baggage and content, you are certainly right about that.

[@issaavedra]

While you have to study less systematic theology, you have to leave aside western materialism and deep dive into the waters of pre-modern symbolism, and that is not an easy task. I used to be an atheist, and after my conversion to Orthodoxy I really feel like I'm living in a different world, is not the same + God, but a completely different structure of reality.

[@Warongold]

His claims of harsh judgement is ironic Hes right about places like Ukraine having maybe more national pride than being steeped in Orthodoxy but come on James. I read theology and other books so spending my sundays getting a preaching or lecture is not Church

[@SM-JIL]

As a cradle EO, I say he’s bang on. There is nominalism and going to Orthodox lands, I haven’t seen as many changed hearts as ethnocentrism and cultural orthodoxy, to following certain fathers to the point of idolatry, to putting traditions over scripture to liberalism. Change of heart is crucial if we want to see transformation.

[@KristiLEvans1]

The EO services are staggeringly beautiful. I can absolutely see how it’s tempting to convert - especially for someone who was raised reformed, but didn’t have their heart wrapped in hardcore Biblical theology. God bless you and thank you for your valuable input.

[@colegest9742]

@@KristiLEvans1 We don't? How so?

[@c.k.2405]

I grew up ORTHODOX... The church does NOT change the heart or mind. It's focus is on there institution only. It's just like being a part of a social club.

[@colegest9742]

@@c.k.2405 I grew up Protestant... I lived a lukewarm lifestyle. I have been a lot more serious since my conversion to Orthodoxy

[@silentsentinel1]

Cradle anything does not induce a change of heart.

[@Dr.Paisios]

Dr White have you ever been to Mt Athos?

[@PaulOutsidetheWalls]

One isn’t allowed if they aren’t Orthodox.

[@shane38002]

Actually they let a hand full of non-orthodox people on each day. My info. comes from a 60 minute documentary that's floating around here on KZbin... so its that 🙂

[@seraphimrasmustoerper6702]

@@PaulOutsidetheWalls I know a few non Orthodox who’ve been

[@jterrellielli7058]

Me as an Orthodox watching this ridiculousness: 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@willtheperson7224]

Same

[@theneverending9319]

Dude yall believe someone is saved without faith by being baptized and taking your made up sacrament of chrismation

[@ΓραικοςΕλληνας]

@@theneverending9319 that is in the New Testament text for example the reality of the Holy Eucharist is in the New Testament text original language so clear. As i read it i would be a satanic liar if i said different.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@theneverending9319 You think orthodox don't attribute faith as an essential part of salvation (a prerequisite)?

[@ryrocks9487]

@@theneverending9319 read the Bible my guy! Honest response. Look at how Chrismation, or the seal of the Holy Spirit is so important.

[@dennybrown1855]

Mr. White, I believe if you would put way your Calvinistic constructs and framework, you would begin to understand more of How the Eastern Orthodox think. I had to do the same thing and I was a staunch Calvinist, but delved into the Eastern Fathers and was greatly enlightened, and I’m sure the Holy Spirit used those Men to expound the Christian Faith to common people like me! And as long as you continue to approach Scripture with a Calvinistic framework, you will continue to interpret in that manner!

[@jeremyjohnson4106]

Could you prove your background of Calvinism by explaining to me your understanding of it? A question id also want you to answer, as you go back to your Calvinistic understanding, would be “how are we saved while keeping in tact our free will ?”

[@zachpeterson8341]

The existence of the Eastern Orthodox and their theology is an easy refutation of many things Protestants claim about Catholicism.

[@88and6]

Dude repeated himself for 11 minutes because he hasn’t the capacity to grasp Orthodoxy. This is the product of the marriage of legalism and materialism within Protestant theology.

[@Arabian_Abomination]

Go worship ur icons

[@88and6]

@@Arabian_Abomination How original.

[@Arabian_Abomination]

@@88and6 yea unlike the icons :)

[@frankherbert6476]

@@Arabian_Abomination Go read the bible we put together...oh, but be OK with one individual a thousand years later taking certain books out...and oh, by the way, denounce everything else those that assembled the bible did. Don't read their writings, denounce how they worshipped and practiced the faith....and oh, keep denouncing those that worship and believe as that same group of persons that assembled your bible as "non-Christian"....by using your personal interpretation of that bible that was given to you...the mental gymnastics it must take to do so is extraordinary. LOL

[@frankherbert6476]

At least he was honest about it, which is shocking.

[@toasterpastries5811]

*People are leaving Calvinism in droves...and people are flocking to Orthodox Christianity* *Read the Apostle's pupils (early Church Fathers). Their doctrine and practice aligns with Eastern Orthodoxy, not 16th century Protestant figureheads.*

[@AreJay_]

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Grace is a gift of God.

[@AreJay_]

Amen. You cant work for a gift, you can’t bargain for it either. Its freely given by a Merciful, Compassionate, and Loving GOD

[@kevinmiller6443]

@@AreJay_ And that's only one of many verses that refutes Eastern Orthodoxy, as well as the RCC. My favorite is 2 Timothy 3:16-17. They have no answer for that.

[@AreJay_]

@@kevinmiller6443 its discouraging to see them worship a religion rather than genuinely have a relationship with The LORD

[@CPATuttle]

11 minutes of my life I’ll never get back. I may as well convert to Orthodoxy now

[@MrKneeV]

God willing!

[@prayunceasingly2029]

I didn't find it so useless. James white for all his knowledge seems unable to argue against something seemingly for the first time.

[@fisterklister]

I love orthodoxy

[@charlesthehammer5616]

It's amazing the lack of historical knowledge. I always hear in Orthodox critics that Orthodox don't evangelize. It's hard to evangelize when your being invaded almost unendingly by hostile religions. They also have been under the most brutal persecution since the romans for the last hundred years so yes the evangelizing has not been as good as ideal.

[@Emper0rH0rde]

The way Orthodox Christians evangelize is different from the salesman-type approach to evangelism employed by most protestants and many Roman Catholics.

[@Nolongeraslave]

@@Emper0rH0rde So, how do they evangelise?

[@greco2k]

@@Nolongeraslave One time they created an entire alphabet to spread across the whole slavic world, translated the scripture using that alphabet and spread the faith to countless millions. Then the Ottomans put and end to their mission. Remarkably, they kept their faith and traditions throughout centuries of oppression.

[@yungspaghetti1685]

@@greco2k it's not the win you think it is to have to go back centuries ago to find relevant examples of orthodox evangelism...

[@greco2k]

@@yungspaghetti1685 Is there a contest I don't know about?

[@ZZZELCH]

Hopefully one day; we will find peace. -Your Orthodox brother in Christ.

[@122222770]

So, basically he doesn't know..haha...

[@SAOProductions1955]

So basically, you weren't listening.

[@sageantone7291]

So, basically you have no refutation. haha.

[@mertonhirsch4734]

Also, the New Testament was written and assembled to be the new Pentateuch, as the Old Testament was read on Saturday night, the New Testament was read at the Sunday Liturgy, confirmed by Didache within the lifetime of the Apostles. The Liturgy doesn't arise from a reading of the New Testament. The New Testament is a book of readings FROM the Liturgy!

[@DVan-lj5nm]

You need to read John Behr. Everything I have been reading of Orthodoxy leads to vital life-changing faith in Jesus Christ and deeply dying to self and living to God in Jesus Christ. Listen to his Healing in the Patristics on KZbin. The ancient liturgy is steeped in Scripture and tells the story over and over.

[@littlelulu5675]

it is clear you have not spent much time studying Orthodoxy because faith and repentance could not be more a part of the Orthodox life if you are truly Orthodox......I do not know why you think it is necessary to comment in the negative on something you clearly know very little about.......

[@SeraphimHanischMusic]

Dear James! I think you really called this very honestly and I really appreciate that. I am a former garden-variety American Protestant that converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and I completely agree with you - the basis of understanding the Church largely has to do with acquiring or at least accepting that the Orthodox folks think about things in a different manner than the Western systematic theologian does. The point you make about "The change of the heart" as a vital requisite to Christianity is an example of this. I appreciate your thought, and it is not without basis: Sometimes, in fact, very often, the fact that Orthodox Christian cultures often proceed from "culture first" and not "Christ first / salvation first" IS a problem... sort of. One positive about having an Orthodox Christian culture is actually the same thing as having a Protestant Christian culture: We know right from wrong, we have a sense of moral purity and impurity and we understand what is of God and what is not. While we experience this in a way that is not really "juridical" or "with the thinking mind leading the argument", we DO often really feel it. That is not to say that everyone in the Orthodox Church only "feels" stuff and doesn't think. There are a lot of people that think too much and they actually try to reduce the Church and her teaching to a rules codebook, and then you get phariseeism, right? But I would say that we ALL (Protestant, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, etc...) - we ALL have the tendency to run to some other sort of "controllable, understandable" point of reference rather than to let ourselves simply stand in the presence of the Living God himself. We may have different ways of doing this, but we all have ways of doing this that spring out of the places in our tradition that we don't pay proper attention to. For example, I never understood the "experience of God" while a Protestant. Maybe other Protestants do, and have, but I never did until I was preparing to enter the Orthodox church and I had such an experience while not yet even baptized. This is not without precedent - Scripture notes the falling of the Holy Spirit upon some believers who had not been baptized also, right? God does it however HE wants to do it. We don't confine that. By the same standard, I know plenty of Orthodox people who rely so much on their cultural and prayer tradition that they do not stop and think about what the texts of the Divine Liturgy or the prayers actually say. In Russia and other slavic countries, this is often complicated by the fact that we use Church Slavonic, which is a lot like praying in Chaucerian-era English. We get some of it but not clearly like plain old standard American English. So the job is always to come from where we may feel secure in our "religious" practice to actually standing in the presence of God, and that is really something. Those people that end up experiencing this even for a moment are changed, inside and out, forever. It isn't a mental trick or a psychological one, it is the most real experience that any experience can ever be, and it is unlimited by God, but he accomodates our limitations and doesn't give us more or less than what we can handle or are ready for. We should talk! Thank you for your honesty and your articulate ability to express what you are trying to come up with. It is very good to see such honesty! The Lord be with you in all things!

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Am I right to assume that you think the non orthodox can be right with God despite not being orthodox? Many orthodox seem to completely reject such a viewpoint.

[@SeraphimHanischMusic]

@@prayunceasingly2029 Well, the Church handles it this way, generally: "God can save anybody he wants. All who truly seek Him will find Him." Many in the Church also say, "We know where the Orthodox Church IS, but we do not know where it is NOT." The way I understand this is that when someone truly seeks the Lord, the Lord shows him or her the way to Himself. When the person follows that, they will find themselves more and more in the living presence of the Lord. As He guides them, and as they follow His guidance, they will come to know from experience what the Orthodox Church teaches and preserves as a matter of faith. The issue is that many people in the Church in the United States think in "Protestant" terms, and think that the institution of the Orthodox Church is just the "right" institutional gateway through which to pass, so it is like "become a member and you are in the club." That isn't how it works, at least not when someone really is drawn to Holy Orthodoxy - the experience I had and have is more that of a love affair - I *want* to be here, and the Church welcomes me to be here. There is no pressure to join - indeed, I was asked "why do you even WANT to become Orthodox? This is hard; you do not HAVE to do this!" and this, by an Orthodox Christian. It was the greatest question because I was able to answer "How can I not be in this, it is right, it is real, it is good, and while I do not know Christ, I get to stand in his palace all the time and everything here is so wonderful that surely the King Himself must also be very wonderful..." Other people have different experiences. A lot of the debate swirls around "If you aren't in the ORTHODOX CHURCH you are damned to hell..." but the truth is that one can be a member of the Church and make themselves damned anyway because they are not following the Way Christ gives us. It isn't our rules and regulations, it is the experience. Another analogy - we have a lot of theological... things, not really all that many doctrines - I think Protestants and Roman Catholics have more "doctrine" than we do. But what we do have is often treated in a very absurd way: Think of yourself driving on the Pacific Coast Highway, and you are driving south from Monterey to Los Angeles. Your car is on the outside of the road, often with nothing preventing you from taking a five hundred foot dive into the Pacific to swim with the fishes, right? So, the boundaries and speed limit laws on that road are really important because following them and observing them keeps us from going over the edge. However, if ALL we thought about were the rules and guidelines, we would never see the fantastic view of the Pacific which is the reason people drive that road. The Church is the same way. The theological doctrine / dogma helps set the boundaries of what is "right / safe / nonharmful" but being an Orthodox Christian is not limited to "following these rules." Rather, with the "rules" as a guide, we get to safely, and in reality, come into having an authentic experience of God here and now. Christ IS risen, not "Christ arose (2000 years ago)" - the Kingdom of God is a PRESENT reality and we live in it in a very real sense, experiencing all of sacred history - backwards and forwards across time and space. It is absolutely real, divine, glorious - sometimes very painful, very hard, and full of suffering - but this is what Christ said we would experience. Now a Protestant, or a Roman Catholic, or a non-believer who decides to get curious about God can experience ALL of this. When they do, they will find that their faith is basically ours - and if they discover the Church along the way they may say something to themselves like "This is what I always THOUGHT it was, but no one ever told me it was actually real and true!" Sorry if this is too repetitive, but being Orthodox is not "buying the brand", it is an experience, and the Lord said that God could raise sons of Abraham from the very stones... with Him nothing is impossible, but when one comes to be with Him in truth, that truth is what the Orthodox Church preserves, teaches and puts forward - perhaps as reinforcement for us strugglers on the way, and also as a great invitation for those who seek the Lord, but have to hear some of the definitions of "what IS of God and what is NOT of God." I hope that is helpful.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@SeraphimHanischMusic Thank you! I work nights and on my way home a few days ago i walked into an orthodox church that had emptied after the night resurrection service. The feast was going on downstairs. The incense was still in the air. I walked up and looked at the resurrection icon. It was an experience different than other experiences. Some spiritual reality was there, deeper than what I saw. I sat down for a few minutes and left, changed somehow. But God has been working on me. I asked him if the orthodox church is true lead me there. If it's not don't lead me there. There's something deeper than meets the eye there, something that I haven't yet experienced. What you wrote somehow reminded me of seraphim roses reaction when he attended the orthodox church for the first time, that he somehow knew he was home. I didn't experience that my first time, it was so completely foreign I was kind of lost. But God is still working on me and being merciful to me. I enjoyed reading what you wrote, you're a very good writer. Christ is risen!

[@SeraphimHanischMusic]

@@prayunceasingly2029 Indeed He is risen! I am joyful about your experience.

[@zacdredge3859]

Would love to hear that conversation but just to clarify this is a fan-made channel that post excerpts of AandO to make them more approachable. James or his team won't see this.

[@psa110]

I am not ready to throw out anyone belonging to the RCC or Eastern Orthodox simply because they belong to those denominations. Rather, I see those churches as inhibiting the Gospel message of salvation comes by faith in Christ alone. Those denominations allow and encourage practices and understandings that will not lead to salvation. For example, how many are trusting their salvation to Mary and their devotion? Or how many believe that their membership in their particular denomination is their ticket to Heaven?

[@VicnoMoore]

I left religious relativism (Protestantism) 2 years ago and I am being received into the Orthodox Church next week! As a former 1689 Confessional Baptist, I loved James White, Jeff Durbin, etc. Praise God, I found Orthodoxy!

[@MrChi31]

Wow

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

But Invocation of saints and angels is sin. Repent.

[@H1N1777]

Religious relativism? Says the Eastern Orthodox guy

[@dankmartin6510]

@@truthisbeautiful7492 Throwing stones at God's church is what you must repent for.

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

@@dankmartin6510 1.what are you referring to? 2. Which specific organization are you part of that you claim is 'God's church's? 3. Why do you claim your organization, and it alone, is 'God's Church'?

[@ThumbKnuckle]

He knows not the scriptures, nor the power of God, amazing. Inculturated Christianity can be healthy and for the Gospel and Orthodoxy does the best job with it, yet the Gospel is not taught by Mr. White

[@carsonbaird3904]

dude i have seen you go from Lutheran to orthodox through all of your comments🤣

[@ThumbKnuckle]

@@carsonbaird3904 well it's good yall can see that.

[@SirMemesAlot71]

He complains about Orthodoxy being a meaningless folk religion and more of a cultural experience. I’d like to point him to the modern Protestant churches. I’ve been to many non denominational they’re all the same. It’s stand up comedy set sprinkled with Bible Verses out of context. Then people go to the overpriced coffee bar and get a cup and a muffin. They use words like “praise” “bless” and “god willing”, as a form of colloquial. I went to one church where there were kids playing video games while the sermon being delivered. Look how decadent the Protestant west is. They have lesbian and atheist Bishops. He’s right that Orthodoxy has culture (Christian culture), but he fails to see how Protestants are slaves to whatever cultural norm is thrust upon them, even when that culture is opposed to actual Christianity. And he expects me to view Orthodoxy as a dead cultural experience.

[@SirMemesAlot71]

Southern Israelite I literally read the about page of your website. You’re a flat earther, non trinitarian, Protestant, that thinks that god is a physical creature and reject all metaphysics. You are a Christian materialist. That literally makes no sense. Jay Dyer is dumb. Don’t get me wrong. Not all Orthodox like him. Where he misses the mark by a foot. You miss it by being on Pluto. Away from me heretic. Get behind me Satan.

[@seentheAKman]

@@SirMemesAlot71 He knows about the problems in the American churches and spends much of his time addressing them...

[@greco2k]

@@seentheAKman And he still hasn't realized that tradition is the answer to these problems. Sola Scriptura is nothing more than permission to atomize faith and to adorn worship by the whims of a group, just long enough for that group to again split off from one another to chase their own interpretation. Do Protestants not recognize the patterns of sin? Are they only able to see the world through 16th century grievance?

[@MikeMarlowe-ym3zy]

@@seentheAKmanthe Orthodox Church solved these problems 2000 years ago pal.

[@milliern]

What are the books that address this topic that may be less accessible?

[@babajanachka]

Father john romanides has real good book " patristic theology. This one is lecture series he delivered.T his one is very wrll writtenand easy to understand. You can also see vladimir lossky's mysycal theology of eastern church. Thiscone is somewhat heavy read but if you read it after the first book i mentioned ahoyld be much more emjoyable read

[@milliern]

@@babajanachka Thanks!

[@whitepoststudio3947]

Dr. White you should not post videos that end in mid sentence.

[@geno4god]

That is excerpt from dividing line you can see whole episode there. I think this one - kzbin.info/www/bejne/gGTbqnulirOqe5Y

[@artvanderlay1308]

Someone cut this clip out of James' original video

[@1776iscool]

I'm looking into Orthodox, and in some ways it really tempts me, but considering I can hardly find out what they believe it makes it really hard to give a reason, which I would need in order to cause me to leave everything I'm involved in and all my opportunities to serve the Lord in protestant circles.

[@felixyang5822]

Read the Didache, and the pre-Nicene Fathers. They show a liturgically minded church that celebrated the Eucharist with the bishop (epispokos) as the leader of worship and the priests (presbyteros) and deacons helping. The only difference between that and what is described in Scripture is that in Scripture it was not clearly defined the difference between the epispokos and the presbyteros. If you want something more systematic The Catechism of the Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern Church by St. Tikhon.

[@felixyang5822]

And I almost forgot. Attend a service. Lex orandi lex credendi.

[@nycgalant]

Just remember, that justification by faith alone will no longer be what you're saved by as someone who joins an e. Orthodox church. Your sole authority will not be on scripture , but it will rest on church councils and fallible men. Like Catholics, they will try to persuade u by quoting early church fathers, but under careful study, be aware that although protestants hold the early church to high esteem, we acknowledge that as fallible men, they often condradicted one another. Just be very careful when considering e. Orthodoxy

[@nikolaj4925]

Here‘s what we orthodox believe in (the word catholic means universal - not to be confused with Roman Catholics): I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

Definitely don't go to James White for what the Orthodox believe in.

[@jamessheffield4173]

I guess he believes they can't speak Greek like he can?

[@jamessheffield4173]

@Southern Israelite The fact is Dr. White is following a theory that came out of Germany in the late 18th century. He complains about Critical Theory but has no problem with Critical Text Theory that came out of the same place. 1 Corinthians 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

[@jamessheffield4173]

@Southern Israelite Why some have problems with Reasoned eclecticism. I John 5:7 is found in a majority of the Latin, but not the Greek so out it goes. Good will towards men Doxology in Matthew Without cause God manifest in the flesh Are a majority in the Greek but not in the Latin, so out they go The PA and Mark 16:9-20 are a majority in both the Greek and Latin so out they go. Even the “not yet” found in the two of the earliest(P66.P75) in John 7:8 some throw out. If as an orthodox Christian you don't see a problem, what would you see as a problem? Jim The 39 Articles of Religion All the Books of the New Testament, as they are commonly received, we do receive, and account them Canonical. the Church be a witness and a keeper of holy Writ www.victorianweb.org/religion/39articles.html

[@Anonimni7]

I must say that i agree with White where he talks about "nominal Christianity" and how it can become very dangerous. Orthodox dogma, if practiced out of love for Christ and not being nominal only, is on point because its focus is on carrying your cross ALL THE TIME. Living out your faith by taking those struggles as a way to glorify God to become more like Him. In Orthodoxy, Jesus is a Savior by being our Healer because we as humans are ill. We are sick because of our sins and just as a sick person needs a doctor, sick soul needs a Healer.

[@charlesthehammer5616]

I see now why he won't debate Dyer

[@sophiaschlenoff523]

A lot of new agers turned Christian are in the Orthodox church, probably because of the mysticism aspect

[@biblefirst5691]

true ... scripture is not enough for them.

[@javierreyes623]

Thank you this was wonderful!!!

[@wolkenpower]

This is a beautiful endorsement of Eastern Orthodoxy, I am so happy to hear that Mr. White is moving towards converting.

[@tricord2939]

Not true.

[@wolkenpower]

@@tricord2939 What’s not true?

[@tricord2939]

@@wolkenpower The Orthodox Cactus lie.

[@wolkenpower]

@@tricord2939 What lie?

[@tricord2939]

@@wolkenpower Read the original post.

[@alt-monarchist]

Says Cultural Christianity dies out.......Fails to Mention the Founding Fathers of America LOL

[@alt-monarchist]

@Southern Israelite Yea....I don't take Flat Earthers seriously.

[@kevinmiller6443]

Eastern Orthodoxy from the outside looking in, seems to be a type of hipster Roman Catholicism. Where they go to the RCC and say "we did it before it was cool."

[@ironyusa3885]

@1:20 - you find it surprising that Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't try to fit theology into Aristotelian logic? You'd have been better off to just admit your ignorance and move on...

[@sageantone7291]

You'd have been better offering a refutation that wasn't essentially crying about people not telling you you're right.

[@austinfurgason3634]

You talked about dying into folk religion. We’ll actually the highest percentage of Christian’s per person are in Eastern Orthodox countries. It is in America, Canada etc that the church is dying and becoming exceedingly compromised.

[@KevinSmile]

Think about how painfully easy it is to say "I'm a Christian" and then think about whether polls mean a damned thing.

[@Orthodox_In_Japan]

In love my dear I HIGHLY suggest you look at the lives of the dessert fathers and mothers. Look up St. Paisios. St. Propherius St. Maximos the Confessor. St. Mary of Paris. St. Mary of Egypt. I feel you are looking at ORthodoxy in a very distorted way my lovely.

[@KristiLEvans1]

This is the all-stop. We follow Scripture, not church fathers and mothers of the church.

[@shnobo9471]

Sola fide

[@Ioannikios174]

@@KristiLEvans1 And that precisely is why protestantism is fractured into thousands of groups. Acts 8:30-31 *So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” and he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.* So we see in the above passage^ that no one can properly understand scripture without being taught by one who is already enlightened in the meaning of scripture. Protestants have sought to teach themselves, which is why they err. Orthodox doctrine has not changed in 2000 years! Meanwhile, you've got Pastors like John MacArthur who have changed their Christology when the matter of Christology was already decided by the Holy Spirit and clarified in the councils CENTURIES ago. The Orthodox Church is the true Church. All others have separated themselves from it. There's a video series on KZbin called "Orthodox Christianity 101: Finding the Church Jesus Built". Great series. If you have any doubts about my claims, I recommend that you watch the video series and verify the claims made in the video series by looking up the history he's talking about.

[@Ioannikios174]

@@shnobo9471 That wasn't believed by Christians until after the reformation. If you believe that God allowed Christianity to crumble soon after the death of the apostles and to be rediscovered with Luther, then you simply believe in a weak God. The Church has persisted for 2000 years undivided, but there are those who have separated themselves from it, the miaphysites, the nestorians, and the western and eastern "Catholics". Protestantism came 500 years after the "Roman Catholic Church" became a thing, guess why? Because they separated themselves from the true Church and became heretics, and Martin Luther saw the corruption in the RCC and demanded debate, was eventually excommunicated, and him and his followers started to form their own, unique doctrines (many of which were outright heresies already denounced in the Church). Protestantism is false, because it is separated from the true Church and causes a system of ever-dividing "churches".

[@shnobo9471]

Joel Soto the body of Christ has persisted that is correct there have been true believers since the start. You say Protestantism is filled with heresies do you mind backing that up with scripture? Or do you believe scripture alone is heresy? In which case I know very well not to trust a word out of your lips if you deny the sufficiency of scripture.

[@Vsevolod-xe8yz]

Great video. Protestant frankly speaking about different ways of thinking in west and east 👏

[@yesman4jesus940]

Did he actually say anything intelligent or meaningful because if he did, I missed it.

[@HarrisonB72]

Many Orthodox tend to have a lower view of the Bible than the ancient Fathers had.

[@HarrisonB72]

James Zollo creeds are inspired.

[@mistertrumpet5856]

Here's some good videos on the Orthodox view of Scripture and Tradition kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGiXhKVsfZlnfdE kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHuoZ4mZj62IbMU

[@Sonwalkers247]

@James Zollo Following the rule of his predecessor, John, the blessed apostle Paul writes to no more than seven churches by name, in this order: the first to the Corinthians, the second to the Ephesians, the third to the Philippians, the fourth to the Colossians, the fifth to the Galatians, the sixth to the Thessalonians, the seventh to the Romans. Moreover, though he writes twice to the Corinthians and Thessalonians for their correction, it is yet shown-i.e., by this sevenfold writing-that there is one church spread abroad through the whole world. . . . He wrote, besides these, one to Philemon, one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in simple personal affection and love indeed. Yet, these are hallowed in the esteem of the catholic church and in the regulation of ecclesiastical discipline. Muratorian Fragment (c. 200, W) The Epistle of Jude, indeed, and two belonging to the above-named John-or bearing the name of John-are reckoned among the catholic epistles. And the Book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honor. We receive also the Apocalypse of John and that of Peter, though some among us will not have this latter read in the church. Muratorian Fragment (c. 200, W), I have other quotes from earlier sources, to say they canonized the bible is absolutely false. They agreed with what was already in circulation. This fragment is from 200AD. Also I noticed most early church father quote the Epistles. Polycarp is an exceptional example of this for the only thing he quotes is his mentor John. You can literally put a scripture next to every sentence he gives. Irenaeus is also pretty good but he also says "Tradition not found in the writings of the Apostles should be avoided because they do not come from the Lord". It is also hard to trust him because of proven interpolation. He also mentioned avoiding "Reformation" which was not a common word at the time, nor common for his usage. Which again leads experts to believe it was manipulated later on. It is unfortunate because a ton of good things were said by him, but the manipulation of documents hurt the reliability of anything written that was true.

[@TheCopticParabolanos]

I’m an eastern Christian (not EO) and I agree. There is a sad lack of scriptural knowledge among the EO, especially on the lay level. In my own church we were always taught to have a very exalted view of the scriptures

[@SM-JIL]

Sadly yes. More knowledge about the tradition or ethnocentric aspects than the bible which Chrysostom exhorted people to read the Bible daily, being a medicine chest. Some Orthodox go as far as to call you a fanatic or Protestant if you read daily!

[@tcavalo]

I can tell you that the reason why James is having such a hard time trying to explain the eastern orthodox mind is because he is describing what is missing from the Western Christian tradition.......a mystical life experience.

[@snaphaan5049]

Oh boy. That's exactly what drove me away from the orthodox church.

[@JakeRuzi]

There is definitely not a shortage of mystical life experiences EVERYWHERE. What there is a lack of in many places is a true gospel witness and bible-centric teaching.

[@joshuagilmore7522]

@@JakeRuzithere is a huge lack of Christian mysticism in the world, especially in the west.

[@joshuagilmore7522]

@@snaphaan5049I’m sorry to hear that. It sounds like you needed spiritual guidance.

[@paulkersey7458]

We have to understand that the west experienced the renaissance, reformation and enlightenment while the east did not. That’s why we have such a difference between the 2.

[@MessianicJewJitsu]

Why assume the heart isn't in Orthodoxy?

[@edeancozzens3833]

As a further observation, I have a good friend whose family was from Lebanon. They were part of the Greek Orthodox church there. The father of the family was highly educated and worked for a Bible society distributing the scriptures all through the Middle East. He would take copies of the scriptures as gifts to the new leaders at the coronations of many of the leaders in the Middle East, and was thus instrumental in leading some to faith in Jesus. The leaders in his Greek Orthodox church forbid him from doing this. He was forced to either stop distributing Bibles or to leave the Orthodox church, which he did. He chose to follow Jesus instead of the church leadership. I have learned that this is a standard practice in countries where Orthodox churches are more prevalent. The Orthodox leaders in those churches seem to be almost militantly against spreading the scriptures and sharing the gospel outside their churches. While some of them sell copies of the scriptures for their own profit, they forbid others from doing so. It seems they have a sacerdotal Nicolaitan system which hinders the spread of the Gospel and of the scriptures. I do not understand or agree with that. And look what has happened in those nations...they were taken over and oppressed by Communism. In ways they brought that on those nations but putting the bushel over the light of the Gospel, or at least that's the way I see it. Please correct me if you think I am wrong.

[@pmaragoudakis]

You are wrong. Early orthodox church was so adamant on spreading the scriptures that they even went to some of the eastern countries that had no alphabet and created it in order to translate the bible. All of them had translated scriptures to use in their worship when in the west they still had latin only that most people didn't understand. I don't deny your story, but a specific area with reasons we don't know cannot be generalized to the whole church.

[@joshuagilmore7522]

Maybe he was not passing out the correct Bible? There are non orthodox bibles that Protestants use that the Orthodox Church doesn’t support. And you may or may not be surprised to know that many orthodox don’t know this.

[@IO-mo2os]

You should engage with Jay Dyer more, he is getting a huge following.

[@blackoutninja]

Nah the man's a nutcase. Has no grace, only bad attitude. People will see him for what he is in due time

[@IO-mo2os]

@@blackoutninja In between the ad hominems there are good arguments that I don't see any reformed leaders engaging, and there is clearly a movement of YRR's going EO

[@RealFredbaby]

Dyer seems angry all the time and just speaks ill about Protestants in most of his videos

[@philblagden]

Jay Dyer is a one trick pony. He tries to prove Orthodoxy by quoting extensively from the Church fathers, which he does selectively. He then tries to prove that his opponent knows less about the church fathers than he does and then claims victory. He ignores quotes from the father's that agree with Reformed doctrine. He does not address the key issues from a scriptural perspective.

[@philblagden]

@Orthodox Merchant You have asked a lot of questions there so I won't attempt to answer them all. We still have the Lord's Supper which you call the eucharist although we view it differently. We believe this was always intended to be a deeply symbolic re-enacting and remembering of an incredible spiritual reality which is the believers union with Christ. The Lord's supper to us is deeply spiritual. It puts us in remembrance of the Lord's sacrifice of His body and blood (which Hebrews tells us was once for all, and cannot be repeated). It reminds us of our union with Christ in His death and resurrection and encourages us to examine our hearts and repent of any sin and renew our vows to the Lord. Paul said in Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me". We believe that the Lord's Supper was intended to be symbolic and spiritual in nature, and is certainly not a repeating of any sacrifice since Hebrews makes clear that Christ's sacrifice was perfect, and in contrast to the old testament sacrifices does not need to be repeated since it took away the believers sins effectively and dealt with sin once and for all. Hebrews 10:11"Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet, 14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified. 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says: 16“This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.”b 17Then He adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”c 18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed". I have read Orthodox articles criticising Protestants and berating us for not having the same understanding of the Eucharist as you. I have never seen any of those articles quote the above passage in full since it clearly contradicts the position of your church (and indeed some of the early Fathers). To say that Christ's sacrifice needs repeating or that the offering of the eucharist is in any sense a renewed sacrifice (or even a remembering sacrifice as some have termed it) for sin cannot be reconciled to what the book of Hebrews, which is God-breathed (Theonoustos) Holy scripture teaches. The subject of the Orthodox understanding of the mass should be a clear message to you of two things. One is that some teachings or traditions within the Church have developed and changed over time. The second should be to remind you of the ultimate authority of scripture which should be the final word in any doctrinal discussion since it's origin is not from man (even if God used men to write what He intended). Scripture alone is Theonoustos (God breathed) and because of that it is the ultimate authority in doctrinal matters. It seems that Augustine had a similar view of the authority of scripture as we can see in his writings to Jerome: "For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the Ms. is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it. As to all other writings, in reading them, however great the superiority of the authors to myself in sanctity and learning, I do not accept their teaching as true on the mere ground of the opinion being held by them; but only because they have succeeded in convincing my judgment of its truth either by means of these canonical writings themselves, or by arguments addressed to my reason". I know that Augustine also believed that authority was invested by Christ in the church, as we also do. The church was entrusted with the gospel message which by the working of the Holy Spirit opens mens minds and hearts and brings them to conversion. But we insist that the authority of the Church is not derived from apostolic succession, but by the Churches degree of faithfulness and holding fast to the original teachings of Christ and his apostles which were recorded for us in the Holy Scriptures and were describe by Paul as being delivered "once for all" to the saints. The priesthood as an office of authority within the church is not mentioned in the new testament. Christ is the perfect priest in the order of Melchizidek. All believers are made priests to God, but the office of priest (whose primary duty was to offer sacrifices for sins) is no more since there are no sacrifices to be offered, unless we intend to insult Christ by claiming his sacrifice was not sufficient to deal with sin once and for all. The offices that are mentioned in the book of Timothy are elders/bishops (which are used interchangeably). The role of an elder was to teach and preach and shepherd the flock. The book of Timothy indicates that churches had more than one elder in their congregations. Early church history also confirms that some churches had more than one elder/bishop. The other office is deacon which seems to be a role for providing practical help within the church. There was obviously the apostles themselves (who apart from Judas were not replaced when they died). There were evangelists whose role was reaching the lost and prophets, who we don't see much mention of and was not a church leadership role. I an not Orthodox because I believe that scripture is sufficient to teach is everything we need in matters of doctrine. Scripture clearly makes this claim about itself in 2nd Timothy chapter 3:15-16. I am also not Orthodox because history clearly shows a gradual departure from the new testament faith in key areas (such as justification by faith alone based on the imputation of Christ's righteousness). This key teaching derived from Romans chapter 4 and other passages was clearly taught by Jerome and Clement of Rome (who learned it from Paul) and Chrysotom and Augustine and other early fathers, but is rejected as heretical by both the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic church today. You cannot deny or change the original gospel and claim to be custodians of the faith.

[@eluniversoocultoespiritual9524]

Orthodoxy is felt in your soul , not on logic

[@sandina2cents779]

Muslims and Jahovas witnesses say that too about their religions.

[@cue_khb]

Both feelings and intellect must be surrendered to the Word of God.

[@carlosmcdonald1860]

Mormons say the same thing. You may be in a cult buddy

[@Lion_Hamza]

A question regarding Moses pbuh and Jesus pbuh. In apocryphal text of the bible there is a passage mentioning Jesus pbuh as a child, and he is able to form out of clay a bird and the bird lives and flyes away. While in the bible it says that Moses pbuh was able to turn his walking-stick into a snake. Now beside that one story is apocryphal and one not. Is the process involved to transform the stick and the bird the same?

[@jjmichael5059]

Yes , but the text is an apocrypha because that text could not be confirmed historicly....and also that text you're quoting supports the deity of Jesus....

[@someguyoverthere3275]

Poor James....do you not understand? Jesus made The Orthodox Church. ...he didn't make a book. The Orthodox Church did that. Your church uses tools made by The Church that Jesus made. Those tools are supposed to be used in that Church. So, you are missing some stuff.

[@abbanton9274]

God bless you, 100% right words. Hi from russian orthodox.))

[@GENGELHARD]

You are opposing the Protestant understand against the Orthodox understanding. There is no THE Protestant understanding. There are 20,000 Protestant understandings.

[@HorseloverFat1984]

I'm neither Orthodox nor Protestant but the way James White tries to distance himself from Orthodoxy makes Orthodoxy sound really, really fascinating and tempting 😂

[@orthobro2308]

Most of the people at my Church were not born into it and were former Protestants.

[@evantheorthodox740]

Yes,, not so much a debate.. but a discussion, to begin to see the differences between White and Dyer. It would be incredibly interesting.

[@evantheorthodox740]

@Southern Israelite is there a link where you debated him head to head?

[@alexl5660]

Absolutely agree. The Orthodox have not the Spirit of the Word. They are extremely legalistic and methodically not adhering even to Jesus Words.

[@Gregorydrobny]

This was an 11-minute long admission of ignorance.

[@Gregorydrobny]

Southern Israelite I’m pretty confident that I never championed Jay Dyer in any way, so I’m not sure what the point is here.

[@صلعمالمنكوح]

@@Gregorydrobny he's a dumb anti-trinitarian heretic judaizer

[@billzbez6019]

I'm with a eastern orthidox woman now , the biggest issue I see in there ways are they put there traditions on par with scriptures, and this is admitted from them

[@billzbez6019]

@Phil Andrew hmmmmm I can't say a tradition is on par with scripture I personally think that's insane to admit , but I guess it would depend on what that person's theological point of view is . The more I read the bible the more reformed I become but thats just me

[@greco2k]

@@billzbez6019 How do you get meaning from the words you read in scripture? And how do you know that the meaning you get is the correct meaning? What guides you to the correct meaning? And if others gain a different meaning from their reading, do you assume they are wrong and you are correct?

[@billzbez6019]

@@greco2k the scriptures are vary clear on explaining and the subjects that it's not clear on we debate on . So it's not as if we condemned eachother but realize there's just some things that are core

[@greco2k]

@@billzbez6019 So debate is your tradition?

[@ElasticGiraffe]

You don't have to be an Easterner to be authentically Orthodox. I'm curious why White finds Eastern theological writings so opaque and alien to Western ways of thought, yet has the utmost confidence that Calvinist Baptists, of all traditions, most faithfully interpret and apply the ancient Near Eastern scriptures. When Orthodox and Roman Catholic cultures become 'nominalized' hollow shells, the spiritual result tends to be ethnoreligious nationalism and paganistic folk religion, respectively. When the same happens in magisterial Protestant cultures, deistic secularism invariably follows.

[@sageantone7291]

No. The latter could be said for all. You're confusing events at separate points of history with necessary conclusions.

[@ElasticGiraffe]

@@sageantone7291 If I even understand your objection, it's like claiming we shouldn't say Communism naturally leads to totalitarian state violence because the historically contingent causes and background of the Bolshevik Revolution differed from those of the Chinese or Cuban Revolutions, etc. Taking disparate data and trying to reason to best explanations or draw probabilistic general conclusions is what historians do.