Why is Single Whip the Most Importance Posture of Tai Chi?

[@Fremulshmat]

Thanks for posting-found it interesting.

[@_eastmountain]

I hope the video was helpful. Thanks for the feedback!

[@beenright5115]

Whoah... KZbin comments are rough! I'm halfway between "the more the move is repeated the more important it is" and "the more the move is repeated the more applications it has". There's so many applications to these moves, so i like to think repetitions allow for different applications to be practiced.

[@_eastmountain]

Thanks for your thoughts! I don't see a contradiction between the two. Yes, more strong opinions here than my other posts.

[@alanlaytner2974]

Right hand is kinda of dead - no meaning - though ‘hooking’ is generally considered a Chin Na grab . I think the ‘family’ of waving clouds of 2 hands moving in opposite direction or sometimes in the same direction with the feet moving is more indicative of Chen.

[@MrBodhi888]

Yes, good tai chi is best understood from the applications of each move. Well done, James ! But you missed explaining the application of the right hand or the hook. Without that explanation, the Single Whip is no different from Lazy Tying the Coat where the free hand does nothing.

[@lichadabrown]

Good video and interesting comments. From my experience, there are no right or left-sided techniques. The idea is that you learn the Lao Jia Yi Lu form from one direction first. Once you've learned the form in one direction you then switch and practice the form from the other direction. Therefore, both directions are covered.

[@_eastmountain]

Yes, that's a good point. Thanks for bringing this up! I should have said learning starts with techniques on the right side and as a result ends up being emphasized for many students.

[@MarconiZXX]

Learning the mirror version of any form, especially your main one, is great, but it's sort of marginal. Very few teachers actually teach it; Dan Lee was the only one I ever encountered. You have to figure it out on own, if you're interested, and many expert practitioners don't do it. Rather than saying that "there are no left or right sided techniques" because you can learn the mirror version, what I would say is that the bread and butter movements can be applied on either side. That is, Grasp Bird's Tail, for example, can be used against an attack with either the left or right hand. So can SW. If being able to do every movement on either side was important, I'd think it would be built into the form in the first place, or there would be much more emphasis on learning the mirror. I think learning the mirror is more for symmetry, completeness, for health, rather than being important for martial application. The mirror set might even be counterproductive in martial application: say you punch at me with the right hand. If I only know GBT or SW on one side, I can use it against either hand, but if I know those movements on each side, I might hesitate trying to decide which one to use, and get hit.

[@_eastmountain]

@@MarconiZXX Thanks for your feedback!

[@ericvaldivieso4202]

I'm a 27-year student of Tai Chi, Qi Kung, Chi Body Work, Natural Face Lifting, and Wu Chi Breathing, The forms and techniques were given to me by Tai Chi Master Dongkuk Ahn (Don Ahn NYC). Don Ahn acquired the forms and techniques - from Legendary Prof. Cheng Man-Ch'ing (considered one of the greatest Tai Chi masters of modern times). The form in this video is unrecognizable to me, I'm sorry.

[@_eastmountain]

Yes, Yang style does look very different from Chen. What is interesting is the the principles are the same.

[@Potrimpo]

I tried out those common mistakes, OW, very uncomfortable. I even tested my arms at 180° instead of ~135°, also very uncomfortable.

[@hanksimon1023]

I am not qualified to debate the issue, but I have heard similar discussion about Wave Hands ... in Yang Style. Any validity to that perspective?

[@_eastmountain]

Yes, I think there is a reason some moves show up more frequently in traditional routines.

[@MarconiZXX]

Single Whip is iconic in Yang style; logos, and still photos used for a book cover, logo or whatever, are invariably either Single Whip or Squatting Single Whip. That's because Yang style SW is very pretty, the squatting version even more so. In Chen style, it's more likely to be Lazy Tie Coat. And SW is repeated often--about 10 times in the long Wu or Yang forms. Maybe it is indeed the most important move, if there is one. But I didn't come across anything convincing or explanatory in this post. It is more frequent, but that might be just because it's used as punctuation. Yang Style long for has bout 10 instances of SW, and 6 of the are before and after Cloud Hands! Wu style uses SW to define numerous short sections; my sifu, teaching beginners, always stops them at one SW or another. In Chen style, you can do this with Buddha Stomp. Robert Tangora gave many arguments in his book for Cloud Hands as the most fundamental and important movement in taiji. The Internal Structure of Cloud Hands: A Gateway to Advanced T'ai Chi Practice by Robert Tangora and Michael J. Gelb For a frequently used, bread and butter martial movement, SW yeah, maybe, but then again maybe it could be the palm strike as in Brush Knee Twist Step (Yang style). Again, I'm open to the idea that maybe SW is the most important. I just didn't see anything in this post that was convincing or explanatory, and there are other candidates: Cloud Hands especially.

[@MarconiZXX]

Oh, and in Yang style at least, Grasp the Bird's Tail , a sequence of four movements, would also be a very strong candidate. Also occurs numerous times in the form, also very all-around useful in martial application. It's the Yang version of Lazy Tie Coat.

[@文哥-i4e]

Lazy tie coat and single whip are two most important postures for chen style. these two postures are designed for opening the kua. if you are serious on chen style, you should find these two postures make you very uncomfortable to make the correct. yang style intentionally replaced the Lazy tie coat with a set of movements and simplified single whip in the form.

[@文哥-i4e]

while it is one of the most important postures in taiji, I suspect your movement is incorrect, in particular the movement of your left hand and arm. You should be able to see the difference between your movement (counter clockwise or 逆缠）and that in Yang style （clockwise or 顺缠）. Your movement does not show whip anymore.

[@_eastmountain]

Thank you for your comments. I have learnt 逆缠 and 顺缠 from both my tai chi and bagua/xingyi teachers as internal and external rotation of the arm. I can't see how this movement would be opposite when comparing Yang & Chen. Still, you see corrections that I would like to understand. All the best.

[@daltondammthebabe]

Its not. to butcher the quote it doesnt matter how effective a given segment is. you need the whole expression. you cant have this piece and that piece. it seems like that happens when you look at masters. that everything is pieced together but its not you are looking for it. i love tai chi but this sentiment is wrong. no part of tai chi is the most important other than the student the teacher and the mindset. thats it everything else is irrelivent. idk who your teachers teacher was even. if your teacher cant teach lol!

[@_eastmountain]

I agree with your sentiment about the teacher & student relationship. This video is just looking at traditional routines and how some postures are repeated.

[@rosemarieallen8350]

I agree, am a gym instructor, and am noticing & listening something is off.

[@erikageorge9203]

This is the most important comment in this thread. 😂

[@thomasrobbins3821]

Thanks for adding nothing to application

[@_eastmountain]

You're right that application is not the main focus of this video. This is a video about principles. Without an understanding of principles, the tai chi routine is empty.

[@Rainbow_Oracle]

Single whip is a bread-and-butter move of Taijiquan. It's just a martial primitive, a simple motion that can come out instinctually, can be used everywhere, is often decisive, and it can be spammed repeatedly. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't forget that the main application of single whip is grabbing an outstretched arm with the hook, and chopping to the head with the free hand. That's the parent application. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "hook" is a "reactive hand" who's purpose is to clear an arm out from in front of your body. The chop is the "active hand" complement to the hook that is the actual "whip". If you like not being sloppy, you can use the "reactive motion" to lock the opponent's arm, and then continue on with the second "active" motion. The body turn is mostly emptying the central door to avoid a straight blow, or turning into a horizontal blow to stop it short and frame it away from your body. This body turn lets you wind-up a heavy strike when you turn back to chop into the opponent. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The chop can be to any part of the head. The neck is a rather obvious target of martial interest, but the chin or jaw I feel is the ideal target. A loose hammer fist dragged across the chin with a body-turn rattles the brain as much as any boxer's hook, but you don't have to worry about the possible immediate consequences chopping a training partner in the neck. I also feel that chopping at the chin tends to train the dodging reaction that leads into block touching coat variation of single whip (or the version I was taught anyway) much more instinctually. Once you chop someone in the chin a few times , they'll gravitate towards avoiding the bad sensation and learn to dodge on their own, without much if any instruction. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, basically no modern school of Taijiquan emphasizes the strike anymore. Because it's a really mean jarring application, and most people when they look to study "tai chi" they aren't looking to suffer mean and jarring experiences. What most people nowadays want when they do "tai chi" is to feel nice and have a relaxing, invigorating session is what they are usually looking for. Taijiquan can offer relaxed and invigorating, but I do feel people need to understand where this stuff came from, and to not lose the root and origin of the art. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, the takedown variation of single whip is the nice "safe space" version of the chopping idea. It takes the "power" of the chopping position to perform a takedown instead. Not to say that the takedown is not a valid technique. The whipping takedown is still a bread and butter technique of any school of Taijiquan, with many variations. The many variations of the whipping takedown are what I consider the main reason it shows up so many times in the form. The problem is that each school has it's preference, and they settle on just one variation for all repetitions in the form, when in reality, they ought to be practicing the many different variations, angles and entries into the single whip. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Chen-Village looking version show here is usually a whip over the arm. When going over the arm, the main idea is to lever across the chin, to lock the neck. This robs the opponent of good posture, prevents them from turning into you, and causes their body to tighten up on itself. This let's you have the leverage to put them in the back-leaning posture, where the little hand roll occurs to finish dropping the opponent down into this new unsupported space below their head. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The rendition shown here was done very wide, like you were levering with the palm, which is the weakest version. Maybe that was not the intention but that's what it looked like. You watch the Chen village people and they tend to do overarm single whip very tight. "Touch your own cheek, turn and whip out". The idea in that variation is to lever across their face using your elbow or upper arm. LOTS of pressure there. It has the benefit that you're not likely to miss with you arm and end up on the wrong side of the opponent's head for the takedown. Granted if you have the Taijiquan in your body, it's a simple roll away and it's easy to fix, but it is an important consideration for the novice. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most practical version of the overarm single whip is the medium sized version, where you frame across their face with your forearm, instead of the palm or elbow. It's neither too jammed up nor too far to be awkward, and visually it gets the point across to students of what it is that you are actually doing. You can obviously whip under the arm as well. These variations usually achieve the back weighted posture by propping up on the chin -- again with either hand or elbow -- in order to induce the back-leaning posture on the opponent for the takedown. I usually like the version that uses both, propping up on the chin with an invert palm, to make them back-leaning, and then rolling down on their body with the elbow to finish. It just feels like the "complete circle" thing to do. You can also whip across the body too and not just the head, and still have it work if you are well positioned, and block them from behind with your leg. These are variation from the step behind, which is very practical. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can also whip-down from the front. This usually locks the same side arm and uses the turn to throw them. You can also underhook on that arm and turn to takedown. Or you can palm the head with the free hand and turn to perform a headwheel takedown. The only thing is that at this point, the technique tends be not be called a single whip, and is usually considered a variation of a differently named technique, like cloud hands, or white crane, horse tosses mane, brush knee, sweep lotus, etc. This also is still ignoring the variations of single whip with joint locks, or whipping down by bumping with the hip instead of just levering down their head. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The underlying mechanic is the same though. Turn into a limb, grab, turn in to chop down. Whether it's striking or throwing, it's all single whip. In short, you could say that single whip is the mother of take-downs. Almost all of them in fact. So yeah single whip is very important! Not just to repeat the singular posture, but to understand the concept and application behind it. That's my take anyway.

[@_eastmountain]

Thank you for sharing