Jamie Wheal: The Legacy of Integral

Rebel Wisdom recently released a series of films with the philosopher Ken Wilber, creator of Integral theory - a'theory of everything' - which became highly influential in the 1990s and 2000s.
Jamie Wheal is one of the world's experts in flow states and transformation, the author of the bestseller 'Stealing Fire' and creator of the 'Flow Genome Project'.
He also has a long history with Integral, working for years to bring the concepts into the world of business.
This accompanies the Rebel Wisdom podcast, 'The Legacy of Integral':
Check out his previous film with Rebel Wisdom, 'How to Steal Fire From the Gods': • 'How to steal fire fro...
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[@Mary-Mar]

Wow! Rebel Wisdom and Jamie Wheal have done it again! I love how RW never stops reminding us that they are seekers and journalists first! And Jamie...I could listen to you speak all day! One mind blowing, nuance laden, spiritually supportive, practical perspective on interpersonal dynamics after another. The hits never stopped coming. I'm going to happily watch this interview several times over to get all of the expansive tidbits out of this one interview. Nice job, guys!

[@ClaudiaAlarconkiutpi]

The best critique on the Integral movement I've come across hands down! And I am a huge fan of Integral Theory and Ken Wilber's teachings.

[@psychosynthesis_selfmastery]

One of the best critique’s of Integral Theory, Ken Wilber and spiritual communities in general I have seen, a lot to ponder on.

[@ADDvantageHypnotherapy]

I love Ken Wilber and integral and appreciate Jamie Wheals' honest critique of integral theory. Great stuff

[@daneracamosa]

Really brilliant... Simply lays out the dangers inherent in the hubris of the inteligencia..." I'd rather listen to Granny on the front porch"... My fear over the last couple of years has been that this emergent conversation would devolve into a bunch of arrogant proclamations to the ignorant masses by the inteligencia... Finally a voice from someone who has actually tried to put this into practice in the real world... That embodied experience has obviously tempered his massive intellect with humility... with the posting of this interview everyone has been warned and if we fail spectacularly because of ego then it's on us....

[@sebjuliussen9378]

This has be so illuminating and really cleared up some blind spots for me. Thank you Rebel Wisdom for giving balance and variety.

[@RetVersus]

Only three minutes in but I want to say that these online interviews, despite the sound being a little uneven, are the best format/production I've seen (especially compared to the headphones in talking heads Skype call style vids).

[@nitahill6951]

Having used what we'd learned from Wiber and Beck (Spiral Dynamics) in our work for the last twenty years, the most important thing to remember is that grounding the knowledge in your work is the only way you grow in it. We were involved in many groups who liked to discuss the ideas but found few people ready to engage the theory in real nuts and bolts integration. We've adapted the models through trial and error and they are Integral to our work. I encourage people who come into contact with the work to experiment, adapt and use it in every aspect of your life.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

This sounds exactly right.

[@lovman]

Another great Rebel Wisdom video. I just came to this one after watching a very recent one with Jamie on his latest book launch. I had seen him before only on the RW channel. What I did not know until just watching this, was Jamie's history with Integral, KW, and II. I have read a lot of criticisms and critiques of Integral, Integral Theory, KW and Intelgral Life, and have written my own, but this is by far, the best critique of KW and Integral Theory I have seen. Keep up the good work RW and JW.

[@drolmacaroline]

This is the first legitimate, well articulated, non-reactionary critique of Ken Wilber and integral theory I've seen ! I'm very grateful to have come across this material. Very useful !

[@cironicholas526]

"Dissociated eggheads masquerading as Jedi and thinking that they could solve the world from the position of a whiteboard"... that whole spiel was gold!

[@jordannewhook1138]

Ciro Nicholas lol, my thoughts exactly.

[@darrenmanser2847]

Or in Wilberspeak - French kissing the shadows in the cave and calling it light 🙂

[@cironicholas526]

@@darrenmanser2847 sounds like Ken to me 😂

[@ultimatedream42]

This interview is PURE GOLD for anyone interested in Integral Model. Finally two things have been addressed: -How to actually apply it in the real world -All the backscratching and group-think people using Integral as another weapon to put themselves at the top Loved the crypto-neo-vedanta comment! Integral has incredible potential, but it's time it goes down to Earth, stops living in the maps, and awakes from staring too much at the blinding, misguiding hubris lights.

[@Lindsoiderf]

Great stuff! I think you just have to look at Ken and where he comes from, his generation and cultural context to see the way that integral can set you free. looking at life from a developmental perspective and how everyone is partially correct I think frees the person stuck in the dogmatic liberal narcissism and post modern fanaticism that is in huge contention in our culture right now. I grew up in Boulder in the 90's as a child of liberal boomers and I found it very liberating when I read a brief history of everything as a 17 year old and became deeply involved in Integral Institute, it helped me find a path towards growth and so more awakening. You recognize all the distinctions of confusion around you and make sense of the world as a starting point. There is such a huge difference reading about integral versus living and relating to integral it makes no sense out of a human context, without the lower left and understanding what these distinctions mean how to value them. The people trying to enact it and were in community together realized how many limitations apply, how difficult community is and you feel into the simple truths of it; you don't need to try or speak integral you develop past those stages of rudimentary application and integrate it into your world view and find more freedom for yourself. I love these conversations because young people are seeking always and for them to find this wisdom is still helpful, their enthusiasm can form into those structures that help them manifest their integral vision. Overall I think Ken's vision is a pretty great one alternative versions often fall short. I think we assume Integral will have bigger and bigger resurgences and iterations but you also hope against hope that there won't be vast horrific misinterpretations, other versions that leave out more. I think millennials need an integral worldview it can help awaken them but it's not an obvious or immediate spiritual awakening like Adi Da but a different kind less sexy horizontal or structural awakening to looking into the deeper natural world. The problem with integral is it didn't work because it didn't play on peoples narcissism except when they tell people that you are second tier welcome to the leading edge of blah blah blah which anyone who really cares about it can't stand for. It's an open and working model Ken can't stop changing and adding to it, he is only commentating on a reality in a way that makes it easier for those coming up to get up to speed and contribute. The field is open for the future of Integral and people like Jamie and rebel wisdom are doing great work! these are the ideas we are all interested in and I hope there is a new integral leader that does humanity justice and can bring us together in a real way.

[@Lindsoiderf]

Hi danieruumiko! Good to see you here too, love some rebel wisdom, for sure!!!

[@rosnealon-cook7130]

Brilliant, LOVED this talk, thank you. Awesome summary of Ken's fabulous Integral and it's legacy plus LMAO HILARIOUS at times too. I loved Jamie's trust in the wisdom of Granny in her rocking chair .and it got me thinking of interesting parallels to Integral: Granny is an expert in spiral dynamics by virtue of having raised / been alongside development of at least 2 generations, especially having to broker conversations between the different levels without taking sides and while maintaining family cohesion (so she's gotta be 2nd tier). Plus many of her traditional jobs (knitting, kneading dough, rocking babies) are meditative in nature and so potential pathways to state development. Go Granny!

[@RetVersus]

Interesting that the conversation is at the level of absolute coherent sense making models, but by the end returns to the bound trust facilitated in the family unit. A rebuild from the ground up I.e local community is exactly what I think the solution is, and I think its a multi generational solution.

[@adammontgomery5532]

Wow wow wow. Having just been introduced to Integral theory it's fascinating to hear all about the complicated process of its application into the world. Very illuminating - Jamie Wheal is evidenlty a great source for insight.

[@rexsovereign7474]

Again this is exactly why Rebel Wisdom is my favorite KZbin channel for being on the cutting edge of some of the most profound issues of our time. We've really been exploring the depths of the wisdom pool brought to light by thought leaders like Wilber, Peterson, evolutionary psychology professors, etc., to go be beyond the mere talking points of today's clashing cultures. I like how the AQAL framework meshes with Peterson's multi-level analysis approach to today's sense of confusion. I enjoyed the revelation of integral institutional group's suceptability to ego corruption and impracticality in implementation, etc. Jamie Wheal is a virtual compendium of knowledge in these areas, to the point of naming names and getting to the bottom of specific dynamics involved in each. Yes, and I would like to see a conversation between Peterson and Wilber some day. Great interview!

[@Toma_adventure]

wow, this is so helpful. I still love Wilber's life work and all the maps he drew, but I gotta admit that Jamie got a good point. what a brilliant crtique....

[@pomyao]

Wow. What an interesting and informative conversation. Thank you Jamie Wheal and thank you Rebel Wisdom.

[@Kilo.November]

Wow, thank you Jamie for illuminating so many blind spots!

[@thomasmull3967]

WOW!!! Where has this guy been hiding! I discovered Wilber in 1995 when S.E.S. came out. I was an early member of Seattle Integral and went thru the Pacific Integral's GTC 2 program. I was involved in the local Washington State Integral Movement when the "Integral Movement" started. I noticed things going haywire by 2005. I have been making thoughtful critiques (no ad hominim) since the GTC days. This is the best critique of the Integral Movement yet. I need say no more. I'll just link this video to any concerned. I have been following Jordan Peterson and the IDW folks from the beginning. I live in Olympia WA and was here for the Bret Weinstein Evergreen blowup. When I first discovered Rebel Wisdom and your Ken Wilber interest along with the JP IDW stuff I was so excited but concerned about the Wilber connection. As much as I have grown in the Wilber 4/5 AQAL model I have found the downside (as mentioned by Jamie) problematic. I find it is best to be informed by the IOS (I use a modified Android version) but don't use the words "Integral", "Wilber", and "Spiral Dynamics" (no SDi color crayon boxes allowed). Talk more to Jamie on how to mix IOS with the IDW. =)

[@mapleridgenaturopath]

Very similar experience to my own, Thomas. I agree that this is the best critique I have found. Also, it gave words to why I distanced myself from integral.

[@rexsovereign7474]

Jamie Wheal is a tremendous resource in this ongoing dialog. Thanks so much!

[@StephenTurnerLawyersOfTomorrow]

Amazing talk. So valuable to learn of all Jamie's experience in trying to implement internal theory. He's a great communicator. Thanks for this video RW.

[@erinwilliams1059]

I've never heard of Integral theory until today, but as someone who has spent 25 years in the yoga world, i now tell anyone who will listen, that if they come across someone who claims to be enlightened or claims to have answers, to get as far away from that pserson as possible. Thankfully, I was never too gullible to fall for any yogic charlatan, but i watched plenty of seekers get duped. I look forward to listening to more from Jamie...a good find!

[@worldwidehappiness]

David said, “How do we create genuine intersubjective sense-making?” But why do you want that? Is it the two heads are better than one idea? What if those heads are fools? What’s the hope at the end of the tunnel? I think the first step is to see where you are rather than jumping to where you want to be. Indeed, I suspect that Jamie’s difficulty is due to not fully addressing where we are first. If we in a maze of illusion, our hopes might be the product of the maze and so they just keep the maze intact. So there needs to be a sobering up regarding hope, and a direct facing of your own illusions. And that's a personal journey. Wanting others to collaborate is just avoidance of getting real.

[@iankclark]

Well said. Those who have faced the real enemy within will naturally find each other and build strong stable relationships and social structures. Rebel Wisdom as a whole is teetering on the edge of irrelevance with these new-agey, overly rational discussions about what kind of social construct will work best. The framework is there already, now do your work.

[@susanmaxwell-stewart4269]

Jamie is a Jewel. Such profound insight, such respect and kindness, in everything he communicates

[@SeanKearney]

That was amazing! I think I'll be reeling from this discussion for a very long time.

[@stevensmith5873]

this sort of conversation is very encouraging to me. integral seems to ask us to to "include and transcend" it. One note, at around 26:16, I wonder if creating "cash flow positive business" maybe isn't a necessary or sufficient feature of an emergent higher consciousness, at least not at the core of it

[@ultimatedream42]

Well, as he says, if the model is more coherent with reality, it should be more efficient. If you can't create a good business model, it means either the people or the ideas they have about implementing the business (which is on a certain level, a creative act ,in a complex world, that offers something desirable to people) have something wrong somewhere. We need to decouple the business-capitalism-bad memes in order to move forward in this aspect. But, of course, it is just a domain of application (and testing), there are way more that are under-emphasized in current society.

[@stevensmith5873]

@@ultimatedream42 I think we agree. i didnt mean to sound anti business, or anti capitalism, but the efficiency created by capitalism, and all efficiency for that matter, is created by leverage. asymmetry is a requirement for leverage. So to the extent that any emergent consciousness strives for a state of balance it would be unsuited for creating efficiency. getting more for less is maybe not the direction that we are headed. perhaps in some distant future everyone will get what they pay for, and pay for what they get, ha ha. sorry for the ramble, not sure if that was very clear or not.

[@prakadox]

My understanding is that he probably meant it is a strictly simpler problem to solve compared to the bigger or more profound ones.

[@Journeyofnow_]

Wow, thanks for some new insight. This is deep. I’ve found the integral model highly useful. Special when looking at Clair Graves.

[@joycestahmann1462]

His vision of what kinds of groups and experiences would be healing and move us forward reminds me of the work of Matthew Fox. I'd love to see you interview him! Thanks for this!

[@mariefrance7643]

Wow }}} I am francophone and was able to embrace most of this expanding-extended mind journey * t.y from Canada ~~~ * My Life Compass was a vibration-imprinted on me as a child as an answer to the quest : " What is Heaven ?? """ Different levels of Perfection"" it was life changing for a young girl that wondered where her favorite sister had gone to at her death }}} It opened up an access to other realms and realities beyond the limited-limiting ones.. beyond intellectual-emotional grips of everyday life ... etc...Our personal Perception is so unique as we share of our essence ~ give & receive ~~~

[@integralmark]

thank you Jamie and Daniel for this

[@michaelnice93]

Jamie Wheal was able to impress me more than any other speaker on rebel wisdom which is saying a lot. He is an amazing speaker and in my opinion was 100% correct about everything he said and further that what he said is very relevant and important for what you are all aiming for. That being said I’m not aiming for the elusive super special state that he and everyone he mentions seems to be after. I regard it as a dragon that can’t be caught.

[@tomrausch344]

Brilliant discussion. Thank you gentlemen.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

"Where is the cutting edge of the conversation now?" Brilliant question. "How do we make ethical cults?" (another great question)

[@otorishingen8600]

Whoo what a great insight- great interview I since can't bring my mind to come up with myriads of questions interviews like this are soulfood Thank you ✋😌

[@nickshelbourne4426]

I didn't like Jamie very much last time, and I'm suspicious of the 'Flow Dojo' but this was a great interview and grew my respect for him a lot.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

I also found this Jamie discussion way more insightful than his previous ones on this channel. He makes many valid points.

[@mariekirby1683]

excellent conversation. Thank you.

[@loveopenlynet]

This was fantastic. I'm trying to work on a coaching model as a couple for helping individuals forming couples, and i've been studying integral and spiral dynamics. This video described so many pitfalls that I hadn't heard described elsewhere. Tremendously useful.

[@JAMESKOURTIDES]

Wonderful. Illuminating. Grounded. Useful.

[@evanhadkins5532]

Good to see some solid critique of Ken's stuff (which I do think is very insightful).

[@mcohen1966]

33:47 - great list of teachers working down and in, rather than up and out. Another is Steve March and his Integral Unfolding work.

[@AndrewKiss]

Really enjoy listening to this guy.

[@QED_]

15:30 thru 16:28 Damning indictment of Integral's history. And my experience of it . . . exactly. Props.

[@janetmcgregor775]

Rebel wisdom, you are my intellectual crack dealers... I simply cannot read fast enough to keep up with all the amazing people you keep introducing me to!

[@dannyjquinn880]

You’re up early! I love jamie, thanks for upload. So does integral need to be integrated?

[@ChollieD]

*love, surely

[@jasonlawson01]

This is getting a bit silly, u dont take a misreading of a book as the meaning of the book! The I.O.S we are speaking of here was always the point! U dig?

[@dannyjquinn880]

Lee Barren I’m not misreading the book. I’m merely playing with words and shining a mirror on integral. If the key concept is to have a meta-map, then a meta-meta map would see integral as part of an even bigger unified theory of everything.

[@ChollieD]

@@dannyjquinn880 I get your drift, Danny. The ol' post-modern triangulation. "But in this OTHER frame of reference, the first frame is part of the picture itself." EDIT: I haven't read the "integral" book, and after listening to the author here, I'm suspicious that it proposes a psycho-social model as The Truth, instead of just as a potentially useful thinking tool or framework. Am I wrong about that?

[@goumish3000]

The last 2 minutes are beautiful.

[@mapleridgenaturopath]

Goddamn... this guy has put words to why I distanced myself from the Integral movement... This re invigoration of Integral we are all seeing would be tremendously served by paying attention to his assessments!

[@mapleridgenaturopath]

""Integral theory should be deeply studied... and then promptly forgotten" it sounds like I inadvertently did the right thing!

[@evanhadkins5532]

I'm a relatively mainstream Christian. I think the gift we have is the sense of individuality contributing to the whole. The classic passage in the Christian scriptures is Paul's first letter to the Corinthians chapter 12.

Who are they talking about at 17:00?

[@headythomas954]

This is AMAZINGLY good! Wow.

[@watermelonslushy1110]

He’s basically describing the Shadow of Integral, which is true: integral theory and 2nd tier actually has a complex Shadow to be integrated and it is along the lines of being the head dissociated from the body, exactly as he described. Dissociated Eggheads-over cognitive asshat. But this isn’t what Integral is about at all, it’s only the shadow form it can take. Just like a surgeon deeply studies the human body with years of study, the integralist studies the whole body of humanity with all it’s detailed intricacies-the rest is your artful skill to navigate the world with the integral map, just like the rest of the surgeon’s work to navigate the human body is based on his skill to do so which takes experience but only after he studies the anatomy of the body, the map. This is simply true, i studied integral very deeply and have been experimenting with it on the real world, and I am very surprised at the accuracy of the map. Anyone who doesn’t really study it and applying it will end up giving up or expressing the shadow since you don’t have a deep understanding of it. Of course you should absolutely have a great body grounding practice because it is overly cognitive and it’s important to create balance. But let’s be honest: every study is overly cognitive until you start to apply it consistently and it becomes part of your intuition.

[@tapashyarasaily1373]

This is painful given that I've become such a fan of ken n the integral. But there is a clear issue of practicality with a model so complex n so dynamic...great one!!

[@dougg1976]

Working progress very good interview

[@ben-sanford]

Amazing, thank you!

[@GlobeHackers]

You really have a thing for Peterson, I am trying to get that...more of a Joseph Campbell person...a bit before the cacophonous culture wars of our time. When JP stays in his wheelhouse, I can almost hear him. Thanks for sticking with your sense-making group- great work. I remember Ken. Luv Jamie!!!

[@paulwillisorg]

I noticed the lens focus motor can be heard. Just fyi. Thanks for your channel.

[@jasonlawson01]

Integral critiquing integral. Love it.

[@kerryhyndes5751]

What is the term Jamie Wheal keeps using - the word at the centre of the sound cloud I think he called it? Sounds like aquil or ocquil

[@SoulsOfAG]

AQAL - an integral model

[@BeauSmithFtl]

I really enjoyed Jaime's distinction between those that came to, or were attracted to Integral because they've traversed the territory themselves and they found value with Integral being a map of said territory, versus those of us who are attracted to Integral because we found it intellectually stimulating and perhaps even eye opening, but have yet to truly venture out into the territory ourselves to test out the Integral map. It is easy for someone like myself who has been in that second group, to "mentally masturbate" all day over these rich intellectual ideas, and never do anything with it, "in the real world", and yet think that we "know all about it", because we think we intellectually "get it". I've found quite a number of people who criticize Wilber and I.T. are in that second group, the "ankle biters" as Jaime called them. I joined a few Facebook groups who call themselves "Integral", only to find them filled with those in the second group of I.T. mental masturbators, and a number of them thinking they are legitimatly criticizing Wilber and I.T., and all just going around masturbating themselves and each other. Meanwhile someone like Jaime comes along who seems to have done the work and gone out into the territory, and can come back and have legitimate criticisms. Watching this video, as a fan of Wilber's I.T., was a pleasure. Thank you.

[@jewelsbypodcasterganesh]

Crack for Asperger kids 😂😂😂

[@IEGTI]

That was the best line lol

[@11thstory]

I like metaphor of climbing a mountain. It's high enough to see things but you can't stay there for lack of oxygen. It's the trek down the mountain and back into the mud of life where gurus and teachers seem to miss the mark. We have to make our own way down the mountain. It always seems to be located at the root and not the fruit.

[@ConcernedNetizen]

16:20 "...and the people who were drawn to it from the purely intellectual line or domain -- it simply entrenched them even futher into hypercognition and disembodiment, then it set them free." Set them free as in set them loose upon the world? Or free from their entrenchment? I'm assuming the former.

[@jamierwheal]

"than it set them free" rather than "then it..." hope that clears it up!

[@ConcernedNetizen]

@@jamierwheal Ah gotcha.

[@Maserragnarook]

Very insightful, useful and perspective endowing... All wrapped up in a super-certainty which is just a bit off-putting. I need to explore Wheal in greater depth before making any real assessment. We need more people talking about "The Shadow"

[@williamkoscielniak820]

Damn this is important, revealing, and somewhat painful to watch. Absolutely necessary though.

[@philsole]

Jamie claims Fred Kofman's company Axialent didn't work... I'd be interested to know how he's qualified that? I would love to see a Rebel Wisdom talk with Fred.

[@FoxyRoxyReviews]

From my own experience western capitalist cultures have a harder time working together as for each individual is focusing on there own objectives. Hence you often get the stepping on others so you can achieve. In that process quickly reducing opportunities for shared ideas and more importantly limiting advancement of more complex ones. Often peeps will look at the success of others without digging into the fundamentals of why they are successful. Again from my own experience, many companies want the “success” of Apple without looking deeply into underling human interaction piece mechanisms. Countries like China, as working other for a shared objective is part of the everyday experience, placing effort towards a shared goal happens quicker and often more efficiently with less friction.

[@QED_]

@FoxyRoxy Reviews: You're making the mistake of thinking that the most productive way of "working together" is to have explicit "shared goals". But free market economies demonstrate just the opposite: the most productive economies are those where the "invisible hand" of supply and demand determines, by implicit agreement, which goals are achieved . . .

[@JohnRiver490]

31:48 describes narcissim nicely

[@erikljungberg1056]

I can see how the concept of stages could lead to inflation and the creation of hierarchies. It is truly an important issue to contend with. But whatever model you pick, they all point to the same reality: higher is better. Later stages have more capacity for openness, love, and embrace. Later stages can house a greater range of perspectives within themselves. Whatever model you choose, whether that be Kegan, Cook-Greuter, Loevinger, O'Fallon, Graves, or Wilber, they all display the same fundamental orientation: higher is better. They all point to a universal hierarchical structure underlying human development. And even though there is great risk in advocating such models, because they may be hijacked to create new power-structures, or become the source of chronic ego inflation, must we not advocate them still? Just because it is the truth?

[@ConcernedNetizen]

35:50 I felt a twinge at this pont, so might a venture that maybe as a Man from Marin (not that I know the reference, although I do know where "asshat" came from) perhaps the development of a back-bone is slow-growing when locking eyes with companies like Google of the sort which Mr. Wheal's colleagues work for? This isn't the 20th century -- you've gotta ask yourself, "Heck, who is being taught the force here... a 'blue', a sociopath, or an A.I.?" Appeals to "time running out" and deadlines rub me the wrong way in regards to how collective wisdom and society thinks about these questions; especially on this website.

[@integraloccultism]

Some good critiques of integral here in the pitfalls of it's assumption but predominantly reductive. Jamie very eloquently manages to espouse critique that integral would examine within itself for self regulation as a rejection. Any model or paradigm is problematic if adopted pathologically & basing a rejection on this is like saying "Problems arise when you fuck up". The rejection of subtle states here is further evidence of blind spots. It's easy to reject a whole domain of experience because you're unaware of it. This began as a balanced critique of Integral's potential pitfalls during failed application but ended with a subconscious declaration of a lack of experience & to reject something based on this suggests it's own unconscious hubris (in a somewhat ironic hypocrisy). Good emphasis on not clinging to models so rigidly though.

[@strength365]

"predominantly reductive' -- yes. If he were anywhere near where he set out to claim to be or followed any of his own opening advice, he'd have NONE of this energy to reductively and most often crudely critique of Ken and Integral. I find him completely triggered by Ken and lost in his own sense of inferiority and or his own let down when if learned Ken put his pants on two legs at a time.

[@Greef246]

Can someone share with me more about emotional intelligence (Eq)? I believe peterson has talked/criticized it before and whenever i see it (even at my job) i turn on my disguest filter and refuse to think its anything good and just assume its marxist postmodern crap.

[@ultimatedream42]

Eh, there's some Goleman and good things there, it's just that -It's poorly understood and often swung around as a weapon/shield (my feelings tell me otherwise mr.reason) -Plain old IQ (G factor) has way more bibliography and results supporting it. So basically, it seems to exist, it needs more deep study, and it's weaponized, as most things.

[@Frederer59]

When it became www.Kenwilber.com I started to back away. Soon after that, I first heard JBP on TVO . Both were a booster-shot to forever inoculate me against the Ditchkins virus.

[@Anancanapanasam]

Worth listening to if, by contrast, you want to sharpen your appreciation of Wilber's work. Pointing out the problems, misunderstandings and miaaplications here is way beyond what is possible here.To use the descriptive that Wheal prefers: his opinion of Integral and its legacy is itself a "shit show" . David might consider getting a more intelligent and comprehensive view of Wilber and Integral to balance out this diatribe. Or at least see if Ken might be intersted in commenting. I also find the title regretable. The legacy of Integral is very much greater than this "drive by shooting " of a review would have you believe. (Witness their discussion of how Wilber's warnings about the downside of the"green" developmental level were discounted years ago; and now those warnings have proven quite prescient. Add in "Trump and the Post Truth World" to complete the picture of the problems of green, while appreciating its gifts as well.) Like Global Warming,. adult developmental levels are an inconveient truth for many. But once accepted and understood, life actually gets better. And no. the verdict is not still out on evolutionary development. If you're new to Integral philosophy, I'd suggest you take your own look at it and then don't just "forget it' as Wheal recommends. Use it to make sense of life. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but every time I hear a guy like this it increases my appreciation of the beauty and utility of the Integral Vision and the long and challenging journey of human develoment. Without an Integral view I would not have been able to make good sense of "Stealing Fire", and find the right place for it in my life.

[@danwilson3299]

He’s painting Ken as some kind of bad guy and I don’t like that at all. Ken developed his integral system with love, you can see that through his history, he literally gave birth to it through pain and love; SES was written years after his wife died of cancer and it contains the most developed details of integral thinking, it’s passionate, painful and loving, trying to put the world together. I personally found that you can apply this system quite amazingly well in the real world but it takes a lot of personal development to do so; it is obviously important to realize it is a map and not he territory, but the deeper you evolve the more it makes sense. This is my opinion obviously, but Ken is not some bad guy who is claiming intellectual authority, in fact he always says how his system will be overriden by the tide of evolution, that it will be upgraded and altered. However i do find his map to be amazingly accurate, it’s frightening actually, it’s a matter of filling the holes in the map with your experience however. And not getting obsessed about it, paradoxically.

[@tommeakin1732]

_"Crack for Asperger's kids"_

[@chiaramente75]

It baffles me that someone with his knowledge, his propriety of language, his articulation of concepts would not mention even once the patriarchal bias that he has, as well as most of the guys he mentioned. He mainly named dudes (with very few exceptions), referred to the work of dudes, worked with companies whose managers are mainly dudes, referred to biases typical of dudes: "I'm more integral than you!" is a typical testosterone-driven tendency on which the whole capitalistic system has been built on. I mean, he says interesting things but it would be easier to trust him if all that was acknowledged. Then he asks himself in the end how to stop repeating old mistakes? How about we start listening to women and other non-male humans for a start? He mentions it himself at some point when he says he would rather trust an old lady's advice than to what most of these super gurus say... there you have it Jamie, let's start from there and bring some balance back to this dual non-duality.

[@1HandClappn]

White male privilege at its finest! 😂

[@integral9x]

Ken Wilber's work allowed me to appreciate all types of people and allowed me to understand those who I previously had a more fractured relationship with. I didn't quite agree with Jamie's critique, I had a different experience with Integral

[@bansibuckley1711]

Just catching this video now, a year and 9+ months after... Obviously, it is quite relevant still. The vertical nature of the Stages is one of several reasons that I slightly prefer Bill Plotkin's eco-soulcentric wheel-map of human development more than the IT map. It's a bit more humble because it's just a wheel that ends in death, not a ladder that goes to the 'top'. Though some of the ascension crave might be assuaged a tad if it there was more emphasis on how greater responsibility comes with every rung rather than more glory. "how do we make ethical cults, where the individual is not subsumed, but actually the sovereignty of every individual is paramount. And then we connect in co-creative emergence." This is exactly what we do in the Field of Awakening practice-container (www.fieldofawakening.com). And it's been working miraculously. We've done weekend immersions and multi-week series, but my dream-vision is to build ongoing community around this paradigm and practice. Every step so far over the last 6 years has been extremely promising. I am finally writing a book that I believe will clearly convey a detailed accounting of the aspects of how and why this approach supports evolutionary consciousness, and lots of tools and distinctions that can be utilized immediately - in or out of the practice.

[@watermelonslushy1110]

Good critique. But why are we being so mean to people who have did their best to collaborate in making the world a better place, when we have the majority of people with no intention to better it? I think us world changers should be kinder to each other. Of course critique is important but let’s remember those who we’ve critiqued have a human heart that was actually used for the world. No human is perfect, and this critique is not perfect either but still appreciated

[@aarongranville2017]

Jamie mis represents Eckhart Tolle here, I have listened to Eckhart for about 10 years . Do not take his word for any of the teachers that he has lumped into his own definition of not good ,please go and find out for your self. Jamie also says that he gets behind teachers like Adyashanti, Adyasahnti is a marvellous speaker and teacher Ive listened to his teachings for 10 years. Adaya and Eckhart are talking about the same thing, its the same thing the Buddah talked about and many other spiritual teachers. as for the other teachers he mentioned i cant comment i haven't followed their work. Eckhart does not claim to offer enlightenment he does try to teach people to not be identified with their internal dialogue and that you can be free from being dominated by your own self talk ( Ego). There is a lot more that can be said on this topic but Ill leave it here. xo

[@NoremakSeggob]

Mostly fair and agreeable, but there's a lot of painful biases and misinterpretations. The theory itself is mostly being critiqued on the basis of how practical it is as a business model, which misses the point of the theory to begin with. It is one of the most comprehensive maps of human knowledge we have at the moment, written for the type of people who find such inclusive forms of knowledge valuable in itself. How we each approach that map and embody it is going to be vastly different for each person at each developmental stage, so obviously someone mostly concerned with business applications will find it lacking in it's bare abstractness the same way the average person would read an article about the practical applications of a scientific theory but never want to read the abstract scientific publication it came from. Making the abstract concrete is an acquired skill for the individual reader and shouldn't be a basis for critique of an entire theory. Also the heiarchy/ascentionist/progress critiques are almost all addressed by Wilber at some point throughout his works as he seems well aware of how easy it is to confuse the map for the territory, and how these models are simply the best way to communicate reality in the awfully inadequate realm of language.

[@teronjames7457]

eliminate hypocrisy....problem solve

[@nathanwoodsy]

Too complex with no shared story to live within; bodywork is essential though, yes.

[@1HandClappn]

When it comes to understanding authentic Gurus, the time honored tradition of guru-discipleship, or what devotion and surrender really are...Jamie doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. 😂

[@gregmcknight7277]

Jamie is interesting.. but what does he really offer in the way of solutions. He criticizes Integral for being impractical but doesn’t offer anything practical himself. Development beyond formal ops is real but 70% are not beyond it and it makes their egos uncomfortable. Jamie gave up on Integral too quick.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

So despite enjoying this talk very much, I think your critique Greg is valid.

[@strength365]

Exactly... he ATTACKS Integral with reductively... and fails to see or hold it's strengths and brings nothing of his own other than the "HACK FLOW"...

[@rolandwheeler5828]

Jamie Wheal is a corporate hack who writes glib and fluffy self-help books. He knows the jargon, but his negative assessment of the "legacy of integral” is clearly biased by his resentment and envy of Wilber. If you want a more objective assessment and critique of Wilber, you need to interview a real integral philosopher like Steve McIntosh.

[@e1ementZero]

What makes you think Jamie is resentful and envious of Wilber?

[@ninstar8165]

Comment

[@fracta1organism]

ken wilber already gets so much praise from his followers that it has instilled a kind of cult following in an extremely narcissistic leader/founder who thinks he doesnt need to address critiques and shortcomings of his model. so it does no good to open this video with a salvo to "grow up and just get along by appreciating the great leader".

[@l.rongardner2150]

The legacy of Wilber's "Integral" will be that it's disintegral.

[@jasonlawson01]

Ok....so much wrong with that. Youve taken integral as a real thing n flipped it on itself! Question remains...where u getting yr integral from?

[@l.rongardner2150]

Wilber takes it as a real thing, and "boxes" it in his four quadrants.

[@jasonlawson01]

Integral cooks up the 4 quadrants!

[@ultimatedream42]

"When the wise points at the Moon, the fools look at the finger" A whole lot of Integral followers are just looking at Ken's fingers non stop.

[@ultimatedream42]

I pity this guy since it seems he has encountered so many eggheads living in the maps he has discarded the whole verticality of levels of consciousness. I definitely think they are like that, I just also agree that humans are HORRIBLE at objetively assessing their position on them. Hierarchies/levels trigger the old chimp in us like nobody's business, but it doesn't mean they don't exist in reality.

[@iankclark]

Ken Wilbur was always, and remains a sophist, stroking the egos of the Davos/Marin County crowd. Can we please, please just move on now? I mean, look at the views for this video... nobody cares. Re: Jamie Wheal, so what your saying (verbosely) is, you have no clue how to synthetically build a community or a society that human beings can thrive in. Hint: Western civilization has been working on these ideas for millenia with spectacular results. Hint: without revering God at the top of a self-regulating (autopoietic?) hierarchy, the current trend of cultural suicide will continue. Thank you.

[@robertdiggins7578]

Well, duh!

[@OpenSourceCitizen]

Hey bro, stop whitewashing integral by mispronouncing it. I hate to pop ur JP high church bubble blinders, but It's not promise keepers integrity theory. Exact opposite. Its integration, holism, hippie, progressive free thinking. But great convo idea. Jamie isn't holding a significant piece, he has baked the whole damn pie, we just wont realize it for 20 more years

[@liborsionko]

I find this a little on the 'relentlessly enlightening' and masculine side. Not much time to catch an intellectual breath or ponder.

[@mississauga401]

..So "coupling-up" and couples coupling up is "cutting edge"? I've never heard such BS. Everyone knows, if you want "cutting edge" just visit your local psyche-ward, not some over-achiever vanilla yuppie dinner party.

[@williammaxwell2239]

I perceive Jaimie projecting sour grapes and personal frustrations on to Ken Wilber. Whining to here his own voice. Misrepresentations and slander of Ken Wilber and his Intergral Perspective model. Rebel Wisdom has shown a bias in enableling this ego-centric rant.

[@ultimatedream42]

Ken Wilber is not a god. He can be criticised. Regardless of personal problems of the critizicer, and ad hominem arguments, the critic brings interesting points.