Jane Boleyn: Callous Betrayer or Innocent Bystander? | Wicked Women: The Podcast

[@pbohearn]

There is only 1 villain in the victimization of many men and women, who were severely wounded or destroyed by the scandals of the reign of Henry VIII; that is Henry VIII himself. He was the puppet master, and he ensured His will would be done. The extra efforts he made to make sure, after so many years, that he achieved his revenge against Mary B, the sole survivor of Henry’s familicide, bringing her to the scaffold and the ax, by pushing through a law, modified so that he could execute this very low level and already scandalized and humbled woman, speaks volumes about the depths of his petty vengefulness and terminal personality disorder. Once he peeled off the pope and declared himself the head of his own church in his own country, I think he began to believe his own propaganda, that he was God in his world, and he could do anything. But what did that “satisfaction”feel like to him, when he knew that none of these ungrateful subjects got away with their crimes, their unforgivable insults? I dare say he felt little satisfaction or peace, because he was distracted by the constant pain and smell of an oozing infected wound that he lived with. for the rest of his life, A stigmata of his dark soul. We like to pit women against women, and look for villains in all his bishops and courtiers, rather than recognizing they were pawns of the megalomaniacal monarch in a most murderous court where no one had security, least of all his family. when it comes down to it, there’s only one person who gave the orders, and the others who followed them. here is an incomplete list of victims tortured, wounded or murdered for which Henry bears responsibility: Catherine of Aragon, Mary I, Elizabeth I, sir Thomas More, Thomas Cranmer, Cardinal Wolsey, the Boleyn family, the Howard family, Anne Boleyn, Catherine Howard, the Catholic and protestant religious martyrs, and all of the collateral damage., especially the people of Ireland. There’s so many more. One man extinguished or tortured his most faithful servants, good friends, loving partners and faithful children, and that was the monster Henry VIII.

[@KR4KY]

Revenge against Mary B? What? Mary B as in Mary Boleyn??? I don’t think that is how it went down.

[@nancybradford8514]

Wow, that was really well done, especially to include Claire Ridgeway, who is a hard core researcher/historian and someone I subscribe to, so thank you, job well done

[@present-history]

Thank you! We love Claire and will continue to try and synthesise academics and deep research with engaging content!

[@pbohearn]

@@present-history Claire Ridgeway actually isn’t an academic. I don’t believe she holds a position at a university. I’m not sure if she’s obtained any kind of advanced degree; however, with that, she is a very respected writer and teacher in the popular press, and in media about the lives of the tudors. But nor is she a fiction writer, or a quasi historian, who prefers to embellish or emphasize dramatics, just so that she can sell more books. I admire her because she really does try to get to historical accuracy about the people that she’s teaching us about. I watch her all the time, but she wouldn’t call herself an academic either, she relies on them - those who do all of the research with primary resources- for her own popular shows and books, and give credit where credit is due

[@Juliet_Tobin]

​@@pbohearn Oh Patrick, I could talk to you all night (and all day). Like you, I don't think it matters if Claire doesn't have the letters next to her name. She's clearly done the hard yards and hasn't compromised her integrity in the process. Quite frankly I prefer her to Professor Suzanna Liscombe. Okay, okay, I'm probably a bit jealous of Suzanna but she rubs me up the wrong way. On the one hand, I've seen her receiving wild applause for being unnecessarily rude to men who ask questions in "Q & A's". On the other, she partook in a Tudor documentary in which Catherine Howard was unapologetically described as a "wh*re" (yes, YT is very sensitive about words these days). Admittedly, Liscombe wasn't the one to use the pejorative but probably only because she was handed a different script (and the entire thing was indeed scripted). I think she was a big enough star by that time to have asked that the word be redacted. It wouldn't bother me so much if it were true but it simply isn't. If anyone used their bodies for material gain ("worldly glory", as the Tudors called it), it was Francis Dereham and the winsome Tommy Culpeper. Anyway, I do admire Claire too - whenever I want to fact check anything about the Boleyn's in particular, I look to see what Claire said. She's pretty reliable. When there are no facts or if she's unaware of something, at least she never cites an unreliable source for the sake of a juicier story.

[@Loyaltoafault210]

I always believed that Jane literally implanted the idea of potentially having a child “with someone else” to Anne and then blamed the idea on Anne in combination with the lies of infidelity knowing Anne did not do such and was just confiding in Jane. I think Jane was very jealous of Anne. Very jealous of everything Jane had including a loving relationship with her brother.. I also think after being obsessed with becoming queen like Anne she did everything to encourage getting rid of all the other queens thereafter to put herself in the position.

[@stephaniebrandon3035]

I think that Jane inadvertently contributed to the downfall of her husband and sister in law. Revealing what Anne said in confidence only added fuel to the fire. Now with Catherine Howard she knew what would happen if that affair came to light. Since Catherine trusted her and was close to her she should had advised her as to what happened to her husband and sister in law based on just allegations. Jane’s downfall was her own fault. I guess she thought that she would still be untouchable considering she had served 5 queens and wasn’t implicated in the alleged affairs that Anne had.

[@LyricalXilence]

That's what I think happened. Anne told her about Henry's problems and she went and told her husband George. The fact that she did this could be argued shows a close relationship with George. It seems Jane's words were used against the family.

[@tracyhodgkins7516]

The issue was that George was told by Cromwell not to read the note detailing what she’d said to him aloud. Being his usual arrogant self, George defied the instruction just as Cromwell knew he would, and the words he spoke were treason, as Cromwell knew perfectly well. Read Julia Fox’s book on the subject.

[@annalisette5897]

I really think in understanding the tragedies of Anne Boleyn, Katherine Howard and Jane, that Henry's difficulties in the bedroom must be a root. My husband, a very successful businessman, evaluated investments and life in general by the odds, probabilities and possibilities. When a notorious criminal would be on the news, facing life in prison or death, he would say with heavy sarcasm, "I guess it [the crime] was worth it." Alternatively, "I hope it was worth it." These Tudor characters were not criminals and so far as we know their mental abilities were not fogged by substance abuse or the many other factors we consider in modern crime. These people, more than most today, had to have been calculating the odds of losing their heads, an ever present probability. Therefore whatever Jane and Katherine did must have been worth it from their perspectives at the time. Katherine especially had a powerful, wealthy family. If the king died, or even divorced her, she still had great possibilities. What level of desperation caused her, Anne Boleyn's cousin, to commit an act she had to have known could cost her her head? I think Henry had significant problems, even with his very young wife. It would be advantageous for her to produce another son for the royal nursery. Katherine's previous experiences had been with young men. "Ready Freddy" is an term from my young years for such amourous men. I doubt the aging Henry fit that description. Did Katherine question her attractiveness? Did she seek advice about how to excite her husband the king? I really don't think Katherine sought an extramarital affair. I think Jane could have extricated herself if Katherine's goal was so basic and treasonous. What made this dangerous path worth the risk of losing their heads and dying in disgrace?

[@gigiw.7650]

I always found the story that she was such a terrible person hard to believe. I always thought that she said something unwise under intense interrogation.

[@spookycat8556]

Why show a picture of queen Mary in the thumb nail?

[@LyricalXilence]

#JaneBoleynwasInnocent....at least in 1536. What she was thinking with Catherine Howard IDK

[@justme8837]

We may never know the truth regarding what happened but why do we feel like they had to have been innocent? People are cheaters, liars and self serving so why couldn't they have been?

[@joshuaowensjr8694]

Shut up

[@wednesdayschild3627]

I am confused by why she would help Catherine Howard cheat.

[@tracyhodgkins7516]

Because Katheryn Howard was her Queen and her employer. Jane was a lady in waiting for the Queen. If she hadn’t done what she was told she could easily have been dismissed and that would have been a loss of her position at court and possibly a loss of income. At a time when advancement was so important, Jane was never going to put herself in that position, so she did as she was told.

[@KR4KY]

Easy- for favor. To be a favorite was an extremely lucrative position. Money, lands, titles, marriages,all were at the disposal of King Henry- who seemed very indulgent of his young wife- and to a lesser extent the Queen consort. A courtier’s main duty is to serve their monarch, his queen, and to obtain wealth and favor. She likely thought that keeping Katherine happy and putting a baby in the royal cradle ( regardless of whether it was a legitimate child of the king, or the by-blow of someone else) would garner favors and prestige, as well as the above-mentioned rewards.

[@lorrainesawday4959]

I'm sure REAL NPD - not the recent label for all, existed back then.

[@Juliet_Tobin]

I doubt Lady Rochford had anything to do with the wrongful execution's of Anne and George Boleyn but it does sound like she had a massive crush on Thomas Culpeper or Catherine Howard or both and was living vicariously through them. We'll never know for sure, of course. And that, sadly, is my informed and boringly inconclusive opinion on the matter.

[@lorrainesawday4959]

She even looks mean in that portrait. It's the eyes.

[@1NYCHombre]

“Where there’s smoke there is fire, and where there was fire ashes remain.” Jane Boleyn is no scapegoat. Her return to Henry’s Court after being banished has Cromwell written all over it and she is plain guilty of being a very naughty lady, and paid the ultimate price.

[@joshuaowensjr8694]

I think you need to do your research

[@wednesdayschild3627]

I think Henry viii was the architect of most of the downfall of Anne. Anne made the mistake of promising Henry a son. These people were extremely superstitious. Henry saw this as God turning on their relationship. Jane probably told Cromwell what he wanted to hear.

[@CountessKitten]

Seems like you copied the very recent documentary on History Xtra with Tracy Borman. If not copied followed it closely. Ooof

[@Juliet_Tobin]

🤣It sounds mean but I just came here fully intent on saying the same thing! Btw , can we please go back to calling Jane by her sexier title, Lady Rochford?

[@CountessKitten]

@@Juliet_Tobin yes, perhaps it does sound mean, but i am so tired of fakes on this platform and every other one doing this to folks who've worked hard and put in time and effort only to be unknowingly strong armed by lazy fools. Seems like you are too. And I too think we should always refer to Jane Boelyn as her titled name, Lady Rochford. ❤️

[@present-history]

Hey guys! Thank you so much for keeping us accountable! We really appreciate the feedback. Just to clear it all up, this episode was written independently of the documentary using original research, without any prior knowledge of Tracy Borman’s film! Thank you for mentioning this documentary, we’ll be sure to give it a watch! PS. We love the Lady Rochford title too!

[@Juliet_Tobin]

@@CountessKitten Oh wow - you sound so cool . I don't know if you looked me up but yeah, in the last few days I've been feeling pretty disillusioned over this specific issue. Online fakery and how blaise people are becoming about it. No offence to the person who's channel this is either - it isn't a reference to your work here !

[@DakotaFord592]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@sheilalopez3983]

All of these women were.after one thing: self- preservation.

[@justme8837]

Maybe Jane was a Sociopath and couldn't help but create these scenarios with Anne and Catherine. Unfortunately this time she paid the price.

[@joshuaowensjr8694]

See it’s people like you who won’t let her get the sympathy she deserves

[@demetrapetrou8527]

Not easy to follow cause you just talk without showing charts, photos, or you as a narrator talking to catch our attention and keep it… sorry…