Jay Dyer Refuting Objections to Iconography (clip)

[@jessecerasus9621]

Thank you guys, I'll grab one of theses books someday... ;-)

[@sabrinafair35]

My head just exploded. I don’t understand this. I need to watch a few more times.

[@estebanmoreno8019]

he doesn't say anything

[@SilverRaysBeauty44]

It exploded because he says a lot of rambling without giving an actual answer.

[@johnnytass2111]

A Unitarian husband of my cousin at the funeral of another uncle at an Orthodox Church had asked me, after looking at all the icons across the church, why we had idols up everywhere in our church. I felt this was a legitimate question, since we are taught not to worship graven images. I told him that these were not idols but icons, views into the Holy Story that leads us to God. I told him not only was this the depiction of the Gospels and Christ’s life on earth, but it was the path each of us takes should we choose to follow Christ, that we can find elements of the Gospels and certainly Christ alive in our own life’s story. The idols, I told him, can be found in our celebrity culture, in advertisements and propaganda trying to pass off as art. He seemed to like and accept my answer. I am thankful for that.

[@andys3035]

I like to point Protestants or any heterodox to the I Kings 6:13-29 where images of 10 foot angels are in the temple. Usually, they don't have a comeback for that biblical passage. You can also point them to passages like Colossians 3:5 that says covetousness is idolatry and we are all guilty of that. Usually people call iconography idolatry because they have some hidden pride.

[@peterzinya407]

@@andys3035 God had those images made for his temple. But he told us not to make them for ourselves. Catholics make all kinds of excuses for why them make images of men and then bow befor them. Dont let me stop you from groveling befor them.

[@bigniftydude]

You're explaining a narrative purpose for the images. Which would be absolutely fine. If you are praying through the image to the prototype you're now talking about something else. Protestant churches have art too.

[@johnnytass2111]

@@bigniftydude The narrative purpose is the Gospel, either you live it (pray through that) or you don't.

[@bigniftydude]

@@johnnytass2111 I just don't get how you pray through the gospel. The gospel is the good news. You pray to Jesus for forgiveness. You don't pray to the gospel for forgiveness. You learn the gospel and what it points to, Which is Jesus. The only intermediary needed, the only real intermediary.

[@oriensur4992]

While Dyer makes a good case that creating images (icons) are okay I would like to know how bowing and kissing images is not worship. Would someone explain to me what EO consider worship to be? I guess what is worship as compared to veneration?

[@Logos_Unveiled]

It's an ancient custom to bow and kiss those you love and miss, or those in authority, bowing to kings for example. Someone in ww2 in a fox hole pulls out the only valuable thing he has left, a picture of his Mother, he takes it out kisses it and says "I love you Mother". Is this worship? No. The same thing is happening here with kissing Icons, it's showing love and appreciation to what the icons depict, not to the paper or wood

[@JoshuaCookLibertyIsRising]

@@Logos_Unveiled very helpful thanks 🙏

[@alexei3019]

Worship is sacrifice. The Eucharist is only offered to God. What you are talking about is mere veneration, which is perfectly suitable to offer even to human persons (should they be deserving of it).

[@jessecerasus9621]

@@Logos_Unveiled So when we cannot practice our Liturgy without a material object, it becomes Idolatry?

[@Logos_Unveiled]

@@jessecerasus9621 I'm not sure I quite fully understand your question.

[@DogOneIsOpen]

I’m Reformed trying to understand what deep down I know I appreciate about Orthodoxy. The final “Christ as the icon of God the Father” statement threw me for a loop. I think that is an oversimplification but I think I understand the underlying message. A lot to chew on here but I appreciate the video.

[@SilverRaysBeauty44]

Right. It was a really, really, really bad argument that has "desperation" written all over it.

[@OrthodoxChristianBeliever]

I had a charismatic accuse me of worshiping Icons. It's funny, because when I called out Kenneth Copeland, he also accused me of slandering a, "wonderful" man of God. Yikes, Orthodox using Icons, bad. But Kenneth Copelnad bringing Creflo Dollar up on stage, calling him Jesus in the flesh, bowing down before Creflo to worship him, good? U gotta be kidding me!!

[@Thedisciplemike]

Remind us again the very reasoning for the prohibition of depicting God in the OT. God Himself gives you the reason

[@Hezron389]

Because no one has seen the very face of the Father, or Holy Spirit. Yet, Christ incarnate is the image of the invisible God. Therefore you can “make images” of Him.

[@Thedisciplemike]

@@Hezron389 amen, amen, amen. You answer wisely brother

[@culpepper7665]

What I don’t get is if you use the deification of man through the incarnation argument for iconography how does that help with icons of angels?

[@captainlebowski241]

Icons are also a mirror to heaven and representations of holy figures whom we venerate and plead to intercede for us, this includes angels.

[@Hezron389]

There were icons of angels in the tabernacle, embroidered on the tent and carved angels on the ark of the covenant.

[@arnoldvezbon6131]

Exodus 26 1. God commands the depiction of angels for the tabernacle.

[@culpepper7665]

@@arnoldvezbon6131 And yet nowhere in Exodus or anywhere else do you see them venerated.

[@arnoldvezbon6131]

@@culpepper7665 Ok bro stay mad I guess.

[@Flame1500]

I don’t think many people are arguing against icons. Perhaps in america, but protestantism in Europe tends to have lots of iconography and statues. The main point protestants argue is that Nicea 2 says if you even “have doubts about saluting the holy images” then you are completely cut off from the church with anathema. Just having doubts about a doctrine causes you to be cut off from Christ. Goes against everything in the Bible.

[@Flame1500]

@JunkyJeeMail Bit of a false dichotomy there. I don’t want to kiss a piece of wood and pretend I’m kissing God so I’m an iconoclast. Chapter and verse which condemns iconoclasm? Chapter and verse which tells us salvation is by following councils? or by kissing wood?

[@Flame1500]

@JunkyJeeMail So when you read chapters like Romans 3, Ephesians 2, John 3, Do you seriously not see that “you must kiss icons or else you are going to hell” runs 100% the opposite direction to the gospel message? I mean how can you even make sense of passages like Romans 4:5 from that? Or 1st Corinthians 3:15?

[@Flame1500]

@JunkyJeeMail Paul says that the church is the pillar and buttress of the truth. Meaning the church holds up the truth, what is the truth? Christ. Where do we learn about Christ? the scriptures. If a church has defective understanding and fails to uphold the truth effectively we don’t appeal to the defective church if it clearly goes against scripture. The church purely means “the called out ones” “an assembly of people” “a calling” etc. It doesn’t mean an institution. That’s what the literal meaning is. Which fits nice let’s with Peter’s understanding that all Christians are granted a royal priesthood. Meaning the ones who believe (the church) are called to uphold the truth like a pillar or buttress. No infallible writings say that one faction of the church (in your case eastern orthodoxy) will always be infallibly correct in every dogmatic matter. It says that we will not jeopardise our salvation as the gates of hell will not prevail against the believers. Quite frankly I don’t care if you want to kiss some wood, I do think that to believe it’s like opening a portal to heaven and you’re physically kissing Christ or Mary then you’re being idolatrous, but that’s on you. I don’t think it will separate you from the love of Christ although I do think it causes Him great pain to see that. However I do think that if you think it’s required for salvation you are robbing God of the glory of salvation and giving yourself means for boasting

[@davidpo5517]

This right here! I was so close inquiring into EO, then I found out that the icons aren't just another edifying thing that the church has to offer, but rather they are mandatory for salvation. The disappointment is overwhelming. The idea of icons can work beautifully, but it's mixed with a lie. It's a good idea taken too far. Just look at how they describe kissing icons: it's like kissing a photo of your deceased loved one. Well, if I don't kiss a photo of my deceased loved one, does that mean I automatically don't love them? The more I hear about icons and their value in a western context, the more I see it as a sort of marketing strategy to accept a doctrine that they're not telling us all about.

[@zerocool3466]

☦️☦️☦️

[@mikaelrosing]

Dont icons dismiss and reject the very image of God because we are created in the image of God therefore way greater than any image made with hands?

[@An_American_Man]

There is no difference between worship and veneration found in the scripture and no difference as they are found in the ancient Hebrew culture that received the commandments from God. To me, it is clear that there is a reason we see no Hebrew "veneration" of icons of biblical pillars like Moses, Noah, Isaiah, etc. this is because the understanding has always been that anything like what EO calls iconography is, in fact, idolatry.

[@Orthosplode-nx8mz]

I recommend you should watch David Erhan’s 2 hour video that addresses all of these objections?

[@An_American_Man]

@@Orthosplode-nx8mz Do you know the title off hand, by chance?

[@jakewilliam15]

@@An_American_Manwould you urinate on an icon of Christ?

[@An_American_Man]

@@jakewilliam15 the spirit of idolatry has possessed you to ask such a perverse and odd question. I'll pray for you, brother.

[@jakewilliam15]

@@An_American_Man you dont want to answer because you know you would be admitting that somehow you can pass on disrespect, refuting your whole position

[@TheDukeOfLongarm]

The flesh of a man does have calories and protein, but I guess that would be life "sustaining," not life "giving" right?

[@Thedisciplemike]

The life Christ gives us is eternal. Like he says to the woman at the well, "the water here you will drink, but then you will become thirsty again. The water I give you drink and never thirst again"

[@andys3035]

Jay quotes I believe St. Cyril that the flesh of Christ is not common flesh but life giving, deified flesh through the divine energies.

[@yurashichka]

Very misleading video with him holding up book after book from ancient dudes that said the same thing about Christ and the wine being the blood and the bread being the Body that we believe today as protestant. He didn't say anything new except at the end, oh by the way, icons also fall into the same category because Christ is the icon of God. Ok, well there is a huge gap between that and little statues and images.

[@andys3035]

No, it's is not a gap and Orthodox don't use statues. The point is that the body and blood of Christ is matter that God glorifies and uses for redemptive purposes. Here is the logic; in the Eucharist, the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ that not only point to the real thing but actually become that thing as the deified flesh of Christ. So God can take matter like wood and paint in an icon to point to the thing that it images. This is the principle of the incarnation; that Jesus, the eternal Logos became man and imaged the Father, so the unseen God is now seen in human form. In fact, the word for image in Colossians 1:15 is "eikon". Icons are "windows" to heaven because they image the thing that is depicted. There are icons known to have healing power because God can take matter through which His energies work just like Paul's handkerchief, Peter's shadow, water in John 5:1-4,or Elijah's bones.

[@yurashichka]

@@andys3035 your explanation is such a outlandish way to excuse paganism. your spiritual person should not require physical things to access heavenly energy. dont be misled. God is a Spirit and those that worship Him, will worship him in Spirit and Truth. What "windows" did Jesus use? Do you suppose we are not allowed to access heaven the same way He did? Rethink the reason you think you need these things for a "pointing" session? It's so close to the edge that if you blink for a second, you might fall off. That's why it's preferable for a follower of Jesus to stay as far away so that there is not even a suggestion of idolatry.

[@andys3035]

@yurashichka if God doesn't require physical things, why have the Eucharist? At a bare minimum, you as a Protestant believe in communion but then reject "physical things" as pagan and all based on your opinion. Thanks for the rant backed up by nothing but your assumptions.

[@yurashichka]

@andys3035 have at it, but communion is necessary per Jesus, the rest is instituted by man.

[@andys3035]

@yurashichka I gave multiple biblical examples of which you dismissed as outlandish and I find this to be outlandish ideas instituted by man.