Jim Cornette on If Vince McMahon Sr. Didn't Sell To Vince Junior

From Episode 262 of the Jim Cornette's Drive Thru
Artwork by Travis Heckel!
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[@MilMaska]

"The only job that you were able to hold. Is the one that your daddy gave you. Junior" - Roddy Piper

[@d.c.billman760]

You don't need to put periods randomly in your sentence. Braindead waste of life

[@sullyb23511]

Shoot promo? Seems like there was heat, there.

[@micahjohnsonboxing6409]

@@sullyb23511 just the truth, Vince was given his company he didn't earn it.

[@Haywire_HotRod]

When was that promo? Must’ve missed that one

[@user-hc9qv9yb9m]

@@micahjohnsonboxing6409 He bought it

[@DarksaberForce]

In a Sean Oliver interview Bruno Sammartino was originally offered a decent percentage of the WWWF but declined. Imagine if he said yes he probably wouldn't sell his shares to Vince Jr.

[@moeski17]

I'm kind of happy Vince Jr. became owner. What's sad is the competition died when it shouldn't have. Wrestling would've been way better now.

[@vlada]

@@moeski17 Died sounds quaint. It was killed along with 50-60yrs of history.

[@Matt-cr4vv]

Meh wouldn’t have mattered. As long as Vince could buy the majority he’d have been able to operate how he wanted even if Bruno didn’t want to sell. And Bruno would’ve eventually gotten sick of having no control and sold anyways.

[@SonnyBubba]

What Corny described was exactly the reason the territories were not going to survive the 80’s even without Vince McMahon‘a expansion. The territories depended on the fans not seeing the competition on tv. And cable gave the fans the opportunity.

[@bootitup6927]

I feel like Vince purchasing WWE from his dad is like Stalin taking over the USSR after Lennin wrote a letter telling everyone "do NOT let Stalin lead the USSR"

[@ericjnyman2400]

it's funny growing up in Massachusetts with the wwf as much as I loved Bruno and Backlund. in 1983 the local fox station started airing the syndicated world class show at the height of the Von Erichs and Freebirds fued I was blown away. On this I agree with Jim

[@user-hc9qv9yb9m]

Did you see the AWA on ESPN?

[@TheEWFX29]

I'm from Mass too. When we got TBS in the early 80s I liked the Saturday night show a lot and watched that more but after awhile it ran its course and I stopped watching wrestling all together around 1985-86 after I graduated from high school. I preferred the NWA because their guys looked more real, it wasn't body builder guys in florescent costumes. NWA looked more real but after awhile it became boring with the same chaos going on week after week but never seeing the payoffs or resolutions seem to lessen my enjoyment and the whole thing became boring and pointless after a few months. I didn't start watching wrestling again until 1998 and watching WWF with a friend of mine got me back into watching wrestling again. NWA didn't really catch on the west coast and northeast. They did OK but it wasn't must see at all and basically died off after the first few times in those new territories. Jim himself talks about the cold reactions in New York and New England a few times. I have heard other stories about NWA people having a hard time on the west coast.

[@elc1960]

There is something to what Jim said about that. Back in the early 1970s WMUR-TV in New Hampshire (Channel 9) used to air Championship Wrestling from Florida on Friday nights at 7 pm. If you lived in the Boston area and had a strong aerial antenna on your house you could pull it in rather well. As a result I got to see their TV for almost 2 years before they switched to WWWF, the same exact program I saw the previous Saturday morning on Channel 56. I got to see Jack Brisco feuding with Paul Jones, and Bobby Shane, Sputnik Monroe, Eddie & Mike Graham, Buddy Colt, Harley Race and so many others. So I think it helped me become a better wrestling fan. I would've loved to have seen one of their house shows back then.

[@DoppelgangerShockwave]

You got WCCW up in Massachusetts? I didn't think WCCW was shown outside of Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Oklahoma.

[@DoppelgangerShockwave]

@@user-hc9qv9yb9m I did. It is like Corny said, it was bland. You can see it on the Network now. It's by far the worst promotion of the territory days.

[@mindlessdroid3630]

Grew up on WWWF and actually attended the TV tapings that were held in Allentown till 83 then we finally got Crockett on channel 17 from Philly and was blown away first thing I saw was the Rock n Roll beat the Russians and like Jim said I was hooked. It blew away a lot of what we had.

[@Forever_Thatter]

We would've never seen "Stand Back"...

[@pleaseshutup7053]

Or du-rag Vince

[@chadk890]

Stand Back was actually about Jim Crockett Promotions

[@DeaconG1959]

I spent years growing up in Philly watching the WWWF (All-Star Wrestling and Championship Wrestling) during the 70's...and then during the summer of 1975 WTAF-29 began broadcasting Championship Wrestling From Florida with Gordon Solie on Saturday mornings...and I was immediately blown away. After that, the WWWF didn't quite have the cachet it did in my mind. By 1977 I'd not only also viewed the syndicated Crockett shows in the Carolinas, but also the AWA and Southeastern wrestling...and that was it for me.

[@ThumperE23]

Jim is right in this respect, I grew up in New Haven, CT, the heart of the WWF, and that was what was on TV. I found by accident, enjoying wrestling, World Class Championship Wrestling on ESPN, and later on TBS, Jim Crockett and later early WCW wrestling. I was a convert, I still enjoyed WWF, but my obsession was WCW all the talent I heard about on TV. Named Wrestlers on TV in matches against other named Wrestlers and not Jobbers, as a kid I called them no names. I remember The Road Warriors stabbing Dusty Rhodes eye out angle. The Mid-Night Rider angle, was another I remember. Even seeing Mark Calloway before he was the Undertaker. If you took the wrestling with the production values you would still to this day have a great product.

[@JimCornetteIsMyDad]

Crockett had the angle where The 4 Horsemen taped themselves jumping Dusty in the studio parking lot and breaking his arm. I don't remember Vince coming anywhere near something like that at the time.

[@rubenarriaga3029]

Maybe when the Mega Powers exploded

[@maceomaceo11]

Piper exploding a coconut upside Snuka's head was more violent. What made the Dusty jumping special was it happened outside of a wrestling show and seemed like a real gang jumping.

[@Outshined93]

i think the bigger question is what would’ve happened if Hulk Hogan stayed Metallica, brother brother

[@wilcee238]

Then we wouldn’t have had the classic cinematic masterpiece: “No Holds Barred”

[@Outshined93]

@@wilcee238 but imagine how much better Master of Puppets could’ve been

[@sirjer73]

" Hey I hold the bottom of the groove down brother!!!"

[@pleaseshutup7053]

@@wilcee238 Thunder in paradise

[@KHayes666]

My question about that Hogan lie is in when did he claim Metallica asked him to be the bass player? Was it in 1982 when Ron McGovney had enough of Dave Mustaine or was it in 1986 when Cliff Burton died? We're supposed to believe this little known metal band in California called up Hulk Hogan in Minnesota to come play bass in 82 or the multi-platinum, world famous metal band asked the WWF Champion to play bass after Burton died in 86?

[@KeithEveland]

I lived in Panama City, FL and came up on Channel 4 Wrestling from Dothan, AL.

[@huh8662]

The 80's NWA in-ring workers were definitely superior but WWF had the better commentators mainly due to the antagonists. Jesse Ventura saying "Chico Santana lands The Flying Burrito" was, is & will always be fuckin hilarious to me. Vince & The Body, Monsoon & The Weasel, JR & The King....that was good shit, pal.

[@SensiofRabbitude]

For all the shit Monsoon gets for his commentary, his and Heenan's banter is as good, if not better, than any other commentary teams banter ever was for mine. Leagues better than Michael Cole and 99% of interchangeable commentators that they've teamed him with, over the years.

[@greghuffman3061]

the best commentator is Joe Rogan but you're never getting his performance out of anything other than mma

[@SensiofRabbitude]

If you could combine Rogan's ability with Chael Sonnen's passion for wrestling.... geez him and a still motivated (and a few years younger) Jim Ross could have been an interesting pairing.

[@corykobe3769]

@@greghuffman3061 You look like a stud lesbian that gets beaten up by their girlfriend.

[@elc1960]

That's true...you wanna hear bad wrestling commentary? Try a WWWF Championship Wrestling show from between 1975-1977 with Antonino Rocca on color commentary. THAT my friend is bad...brutal even. Rocca was so bad he made Bruno look like Heenan.

[@danielschell1656]

that picture of Jim in a mickey mouse hat

[@DoobieKeebler]

Lest we forget, he's in a complete Mickey get up.

[@bulldogbrower6732]

The WWF/WWE would have still remained on top. In 1985 they signed a contract with NBC and produced jointly Saturday Night Main Event. The network broadcast which covered the entire United States and parts of the entire world whether you watched it on cable or an antenna on the roof far out performed anything on cable. Having a captive audience through their live wrestling shows in Madison Square Garden, The Nassau Colosseum, The Meadowlands, The Boston Garden, The Hartford Civic Center, The Philadelphia Spectrum, The Washington Cap Center, The Baltimore Arena, The Pittsburgh Civic Center, Convention Hall in Atlantic City, The Convention Center in Wildwood New Jersey, The Farm Show Arena in Harrisburg, Pa. Shall I go on ? McMahon Sr. was quoted as saying he made millions just from these major arenas, he just booked the Armory’s and High School gyms to keep the talent busy and out of trouble.

[@steeldragon1981]

Here's the thing: I think somebody was going to do it eventually. Like yeah, Vince went and bought up all the talent and aggressively bought everybody out, but if he hadn't done it then Ted probably would have 10 years later. Because Ted would have had the money and the incentive and the clout to pull it off. Vince just did it first.

[@AAEJ3]

It was not a matter of if but when. Eventually every big stars of every territory would have gone to the WWF.

[@HyperActive7]

I remember when WCW was head over heels way better then WWE in terms of they had everyone that would eventually find a spot in WWE but wouldn't have the stigma of WCW being laughed out of Vince's office.

[@yojoeski]

Provided the boys had lived, once Fritz Von Erich was out of the picture, I'm quite certain his sons would've tried to go national. They wanted to do it and along with others in WCCW pushed Fritz to make the move but he refused. Fritz felt Dallas was all the boys would ever need. Had they struck while the iron was hot and all the boys lived, JCP wouldn't have become the flagship NWA territory in the mid-late 80's. There's also Watts who tried to get national TV with TBS. Wrestling was gonna go national eventually, it was just a question as to who was gonna pull the trigger first.

[@HyperActive7]

@@yojoeski Von Erichs and Watts were to Texas what Verne Gongne was to Minnesota and the Dakotas. Some of the best talent came out of the Texas territories and Minnesota so it would have been interesting to see where everyone ended up and how they shaped the wrestling promotion they worked for.

[@Jim-Tuner]

If the WWE had not expanded when it did, Verne Gagne would have taken over St. Louis cleanly and been able to start running Southern California without opposition. His reach through Dick the Bruiser reached east all the way into Indiana and Ohio. He had alliances to a degree with Houston and Memphis. He had the infrastructure in terms of production and travel to become a national promotion. But with old-school territory production values. Gagne was going to tend to be more old school. He would have taken over through alliances with regional promotions rather than driving them out of business. He would have been the new big boss of the NWA eventually in the 1980s.

[@darthpagan76]

Cornette and Brian were right about one point early on in this piece. Had Turner decided to go with Bill Watts,Mid-South would have been unstoppable. One of the reasons is that in the south and southeast, Junk Yard Dog was as big as Hogan. If JYD had not gone to then WWF,and stayed with Watts who knows what would have happened. Especially Ted DiBiase, because he was down there working for Watts at that time. This is definitely one of those what if moments that makes you wonder how insanely different the wrestling business would be today? Not just the forementioned two I named,but look at the roster Mid-south had between 84 & 85. There are several names at that time that went to New York from Watts territory.

[@SensiofRabbitude]

Didn't Jim also once say in the past, that with Watts having a smaller office set up than even Crockett, combined with a style of programming that was more action packed than your regular territory, the risk of more exposure for Watts with a major national timeslot could be that they can't keep things running at that higher level for too long and that they could very well burn out even faster? I mean under this hypothetical scenario we have a much weaker WWF/WWWF because Vince Sr didn't go national and steal talent that could help Watts and so he'd have a larger talent pool to keep things fresh creatively but unless he modernised his backroom staff set up as well, that could still cause problems, as it did for the Crockett territory irl, the bigger Mid South got.

[@TheEWFX29]

Watts himself would have done something to ruin it. Meltzer always talked up Watts territory but it was profitable but wasn't a major success and after competition and everybody being in a equal start they fell out of the race quickly. A lot of their success came from hype of the Observer and stories some people told. His territory wouldn't have ran away with nothing if he got the slot. That company did good in that territory but with competition from all over Watts couldn't compete with companies trying to cater to families and big picture business model. Watts was going with a old formula that had no competition and other companies counter programming and having more variety. All these small territories did good in their small fan-base but when they had to cater to different markets and fan-bases it seemed like things fell off with the territories and all those territories slowly condensed into one big company that had some success but somehow fell off when they stood with their territory mindset but dealing with the whole country.

[@TheEWFX29]

@@joegreene7619 So one industry fails and he goes under. If it was a real success it would have survived. It was good in its small area but if it cant succeed there why does anybody think it would be the company to succeed nationally. Crockett was national and still had to sell or go bankrupt. Watts territory would have done the same.

[@Jim-Tuner]

By the time JYD went to the WWE, he was a train wreck. He was a guy with lots of bad habits and a shell of the performer he had been under Watts. Even if he had stayed in Mid-South, he wasn't going to be what he had been before.

[@insupportofjunhado]

@@TheEWFX29 Meltzer couldn't make a territory in the 1980s or 1990s. 2000s, maybe, 2010s definitely. We've seen the fruit of Meltzer, they called it "All In", Cody and Dave's little bet, but Watts's television ratings were by his own merit, and the merit of talent he employed.

[@AWX_Wrestling]

What if when they got wind of Vince's national expansion the other territories had banded together under one umbrella? Most were already under the NWA but what if they all did away with the other names and all adopted the name NWA. No more JCP, no more Midsouth, no more GCW, no more AWA, no more Memphis no more WCCW and no more FCW. They could have used the tv syndication of all the territories to introduce the NWA style to all of these territories. TBS would air the weekly show that would compete with WWF. The NWA World, Tag Team, United States and Television champions would travel to all the old territories to unify all the belts. As it grew, whoever was in charge could gradually buy out other former owners one by one. This could have prevented some of the talent loss and could have prevented Vince from taking over syndication on some of the local channels in some of the old territories. I know it would have been a lot to ask of all those old territory owners.

[@chrischar9428]

Ever hear of PWUSA

[@AWX_Wrestling]

@@chrischar9428 until now, no. I looked it up and PWUSA was a poor attempt. There was no unity. The territories were still separate and only looking out for their own interests rather than the interests of the group as a whole.

[@televiper11]

It is interesting how Corny often glosses over how many great matches happened in the early 80s in the WWF. Workers like Backlund, Slaughter, Snuka, Muraco, Valentine, etc. really raised the bar. And there were hot finishes like Bruno & Larry Z. in the cage. Or Snuka going over the railing and off the cage on Muraco.

[@TheMagnificentMongoSlade]

Mid-South, WCCW, and JCP were really good in the mid-80s, they were better than the WWF at the time because most of their stars had reached maturity. Hogan didn't come into the WWF until 1983-1984 so two years later, during the expansion, Vince was just really starting to establish him. Compare that to Race, Flair, the Von Erichs, Dusty, JYD all of whom had been on top of those promotions for YEARS already. They already had a formula and knew what angles to run to maximize their success (Von Erichs vs Freebirds, Flair vs Dusty/Race) By the late 80s the WWF took off because the Hogan formula was found to work and Vince had snatched a few great workers in DiBiase and Savage to help fill out the cards. Vince used his daddy's formula for booking Bruno to get Hogan over. The Big Event feat. Hogan vs Orndorff was MASSIVE and a turning point for the company, even before Wrestlemania III. By the early 90s, the WWF had their Holy Trinity: Hogan, Savage, Warrior and they were off to the races. Nothing anyone could do to stop it. The athleticism of the mid 80s NWA territories is undeniable. They had great athletes and workers but many of them didn't have a personality. They couldn't compete with the Hulkster, who was a larger than life personality.

[@BombaLuLu84]

Hogan came back to WWF as the hottest star in the business. Hulkamania started in the AWA in 1982 after he was in Rocky III. Vince didn’t have to do anything but sign him and give him the belt. Hogan was also the top foreigner babyface for NJPW before going back to WWF. As a heel he was an attraction for Vince Sr. against Andre in 1980. The other territories were on fire because of the talent and booking. All Vince did was cherry pick the top talent and use them against the other territories. He tried to get the Von Erichs but failed. As someone who was a fan in the 1980s people don’t realize how hot wrestling was. The WWF only got the USA Network deal because Joe Blanchard’s Southwest Wrestling lost it. Jimmy’s point about us fans in the northeast seeing southern wrestling and being blown away is true, what he gets wrong is we were seeing it on television regardless of who owned the WWF

[@herbert9241]

Hey Jim, how about interpreting that question as - if Vince snr. didn't acknowledge Jr. as the fruit of his loin?

[@Mike19737]

I remember being introduced to NWA for the first time. I had a friend tell me about Ric Flair. I said: “What the hell is NWA and who the hell is Ric Flair?” I watched World Championship Wrestling on TBS and I was hooked!

[@SonOfMuta]

JFC. Vince "Junior" isn't a Junior. The father was Vincent Jess McMahon, the son is Vincent Kennedy McMahon.

[@solitaryman7485]

Watching the old Monday night WWF show on USA with McMahon and Gorilla sitting at a desk introducing squash matches was sleep inducing compared to watching The Four Horsemen, Legion of Doom, and Sting yell at the cameras on TBS on Saturday nights.

[@sterlingwillis8026]

Professional Wrestling would have ALWAYS BEEN Professional Wrestling ♦️♠️♥️♣️

[@letoyblacksmith8376]

And dead.

[@iammayyz]

kinda yes but Vince junior was the reason it became mainstream

[@danielburger1775]

For many people, it had nothing to do with "work" or "the matches". Look at mid-80s Hogan or Orndorff. Then look at Arn Anderson or other NWA guys from the same time. Who just look like Superstars, and who look like your drunk cousin or uncle?

[@TheLedonne3]

Truly. I became a fan as a kid. The WWF guys looked like superheros and the NWA guys looked like old, fat, bald men in underwear.

[@maceomaceo11]

You mean like Adonis, Orton Jr., Uncle Elmer, The Samoans, portly JYD, Jake Roberts, DiBiase, Neidhart and on and on. Where do you think people like Hogan, Orndorff, Hercules, Rocky Johnson, Tony Atlas, Snuka, Savage, Steamboat, Warrior, Rude, Billy Jack worked at before Vince took them. Lugar, Road Warriors, Barbarian, Warlord, Nikita Koloff, Flair, Sting, Dr. Death, The Von Erich's, Nord The Barbarian, Sid and plenty of others looked every bit as good as anybody in WWF. If territory guys looked so inferior, then why did all but Nikita end up working for WWF/E. Superior production and presentation was the difference, not anything else.

[@maceomaceo11]

@@TheLedonne3 Luger, Road Warriors, Barbarian, Warlord, Nikita Koloff, Rude, Von Erich's, Billy Jack, Blade Runners (Warrior & Sting), Nord The Barbarian, Sid Vicous and others. Were you even watching then or spouting WWE's revisionist history.

[@TheLedonne3]

@@maceomaceo11 with the exception of Bob Orton Jr, none of the guys you mentioned look like an average guy with skinny arms, man breasts and a flabby belly. The NWA guys just didn't look as good as the WWF guys, Midnight Express, Free Birds, the Andersons etc. Flair looked like an old man with boobs when I was 12 and flipping thru stations.

[@TheLedonne3]

@@maceomaceo11 Nope. I was and am able to form my own opinions. Also, to the best of my knowledge, the WWE has never refered to any of those guys as old men in underwear.

[@keithyw]

While WWF was my first promotion (seeing the toys and cartoons then finally seeing one of the Saturday shows back in '85), I can attest that once I discovered the NWA, I felt that the quality was far better. At least from what I'm aware of, my area only got the WWF, NWA, WCCW and CCW (which was my 2nd wrestling show but oh god...that was bad). I'd read the mark magazines that would have those rankings and remembered wondering why Flair and Martel were ahead of Hogan at one point. I continued buying those mark magazines at the local grocery stores and got more interested in hearing about the NWA. You'd always see photos of Flair and Dusty just hitting gushers. I can't recall outside of the Bundy - Hogan cage match at WM2 seeing blood around that time. Also, WWF just got cornier little by little, even though I thought the stuff with Piper was still really good (especially as he slowly returned as a babyface and had that great angle with Adonis, Muraco, Hart and Orton). But once I saw the NWA shows, the immediate thing I realized was that there were far less job matches. Also, everything just was so much livelier. At the end of every program, they always set things up on a cliff hanger or some hot angle. It just felt edgier. Heck, I remember really hating Corny and the Midnights after Corny hit Baby Doll with the racket. And at that time, I wasn't really about the matches but the promos, the angles and the people who were important because it was more about eliciting emotion from the crowd back then. Even though my cousins and various elementary school friends tried to convince me over and over how fake wrestling was, I didn't care. The NWA alone made it really compelling and I just got lost in the stories and people. Also, once Orndorff turned on Hogan, I started to lose more interest in the WWF. I think it's because by then Hogan's act got stale quickly. He just beat everyone and you knew what would happen. Also, the general programming outside of the rare angle was pretty dull. Mostly just squash matches and you'd never really see the top top attractions except maybe once a month. And the only program that was decent was Saturday Night's Main event.

[@matthewmagda4971]

Agreed. I remember my first time seeing WCW/NWA in the late 1980's. The top guys were Sting and Muta, Ric Flair and the Four Horsemen, Brian Pillman, Lex Luger in his prime, the Road Warriors, the Steiner Brothers, the Freebirds and Undertaker before he went to WWF. Their roster was absolutely stacked!!

[@elc1960]

Saturday Night's Main Event wasn't all that good really; it was all the cartoonish bullshit and the on location stuff like Gene Okerlund and George Steele running around a zoo, or the Bushwhackers acting like fools, or Uncle Elmer's wedding or some other farcical stuff like that. First really interesting angle they did on there was the battle royal leading up to Wrestlemania 3, where Andre headbutted Leaping Lanny Poffo before he threw him from the ring, and the next time you see Poffo he's on the floor bleeding all over the place. SNME had headline matches, but for the most part they were always real short ones, like less than 5 minutes long. To see the better stuff you had to have cable so you could see the house shows from Boston Garden or MSG or the Spectrum in Philly. or whatever. You're right about Hogan getting stale, and it also didn't help that even back then he wouldn't work the smaller towns, only Boston, Hartford, Philly, Pittsburgh, Chicago, NYC or DC. And even then he wouldn't work those towns every month, so often the main event would be a tag title match or a Randy Savage Intercontinental title defense.

[@mindphaserxy]

Could you imagine a world without Wrestlemania? I couldn't....it's unfathomable.

[@tobiasfarragut292]

That pretty much puts things in perspective man, that right there is a burning question

[@ghostintheshell3576]

Absolutely it would be. Although I still believe WWE would still be the biggest wrestling promotion out there. Not having wrestlemania would be insane.

[@pleaseshutup7053]

Yea wrestling would be better

[@TheRydog61]

I saw the first Wrestlemania on Closed circuit TV Long Beach Arena Ca.

[@AustinThinker79]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaLOXnaCrdeKbNU

[@AHalevonEric]

Dusty versus Billy Graham, bull rope match in the garden had a memorable finish. I'm not sure that's what he's talking about but that's one. Of course, it involves Dusty who is a variable.

[@DoobieKeebler]

I can't fathom Vince, ever being indifferent to an evening of his "Disney on Ice-capades" show. He'd 100% be yelling, from Guerrilla Position. Not a slight to some more "A+" artwork from Travis, just a joke.

[@sarnobat2000]

Good point. WWE never shows old footage of territories with exciting television so people like me just assumed WWF TV shows were more exciting. It was brutally boring to watch squash matches until 1996 when Bischoff upped the standards.

[@Technolandy]

I remember a friend saying pretty much what Jim said when TBS made its way onto our cable system and we got something different than Superstars on Saturday morning… very different styles…

[@btbucks]

I moved to Columbus in Oct 1984 and don't really remember anything live that wasn't WWF.

[@keithbarbaro7590]

Georgia Championship Wrestling started running the brand new Ohio Center in 1980. Vince bought GCW in 1984 and got the TBS slot and arena contracts for The OMNI, Ohio Center, and other arenas.

[@chrispineo1979]

I grew up on WWF. When I moved to Florida at age 12 I really missed the WWF (among many things) but I knew right away Florida was so much better.

[@darylaiken2258]

The way Corny talking, Vince Sr was like Vito Corleone. Vince Jr was Michael.

[@jamirimaj6880]

Here's an answer: since Senior booked Hogan as a heel in his initial WWF run and didn't want him in Rocky III that made Hogan jump to AWA, there is no way he comes back as the appointed mega babyface if Senior still controlled WWF throughout the 80s

[@KHayes666]

Bingo. Vince Sr told Hogan he'd never work in WWF again when he bolted to do Rocky 3. Verne admitted he and Vince Sr were friends so a healthy Vince Sr in 83 would have told Hogan to get lost when Hulk had enough of Verne. So the question is would Hogan have catered to Verne's demands and became AWA champion or would he have took Hulkamania elsewhere like Watts or Crockett in 83?

[@drg5352]

@@KHayes666 Seeing as how he is and was an egomaniac, I think he'd probably move somewhere else. Maybe Japan, maybe JCP or Midsouth. I don't see him buckling under for the AWA.

[@BombaLuLu84]

Good Point! Who does he replace Backlund with?

[@BombaLuLu84]

@@KHayes666 Hulkamania started in the AWA in 1982, if he doesn’t get the title and Vince Jr can’t persuade his father to bring him back I doubt he goes to Crockett due to the kind of style. I wonder if he goes to World Class as a “friend” to the Von Erichs against the Freebirds? Hulk, Kerry and Kevin vs The Freebirds after David’s death would keep World Class hot for sure!

[@drg5352]

@@BombaLuLu84 If he still got him, Savage would have probably been the best draw he could pull at that time. Since The Macho Man could also flip heel and face and make both work, he'd had much more shelf life than Hogan, who actively drove away fans by the late 80's.

[@bilklein]

Georgia Championship Wrestling was on the Superstation at the same time as Verne's AWA wrestling on Saturdays in Wisconsin. Once we got a load of GCW, AWA All-Star Wrestling was toast. We'd maybe tune in during commercials on GWC and it was the same old crap, High Flyers with a guy in an armlock for 20 minutes telling the referee "Ask him!"

[@ssdj04]

Totally correct Manchester NH, 1983 I’m 8 years old and me and my dad would buy our tickets at Fred’s Tackle shop or Mickey Finn’s to see the WWWF, we got a funky box with a wire connected to the tv with a slider with all these numbers and I got to channel 28, Superstation TBS and this wrestling was the coolest I’ve ever seen. This was real they beat the snot out of each other! I was still a fan of the WWF, but my allegiance was no with that “NWA Rasslin” as my dad called it and I eventually WWF fell further down in my book, right to the end. I stopped watching wrestling in 2001 cuz I couldn’t take Vince owning it lol

[@awesomehigames]

"it's not what Pat Patterson would've done in San Francisco" No one needs to see what Phag Phaggerson would've done in San Francisco

[@sugartbube]

Southwest wrestling was always the "real" wrestling

[@abcsin6526]

6:00 vince jr admitted that bill watts were more competitive and he would have worried about bill watts then crockett promotion. They never considered crockett as competition...

[@cbod14]

Grew up In the heart of WWF country in NYC but had family in Georgia. I preferred The NWA, Mid South/UWF, WCCW to Vince's stuff and trust me when I say there were a lot of us in the tri-state area that did. If you put WWF next to The NWA the in the ring product from Vince is laughable. Only thing Vince had was better TV production.

[@vinceraven1501]

The 1st wrasslin I ever saw was a local MWA high school show in the spring of 1986. The actual wrasslin I ever saw on TV was the NWA during the build up to the 1st Wargames in late June of 1987. I'd bought my 1st wrasslin magazine, May 1987 issue of The Wrestler, several days before I saw the NWA as I found the magazine at a grocery store behind some puzzle magazines. I never actually watched the old WWF until spring of 1988. Although some of the talents were interesting, I preferred the other promotions because it seemed so much more real. Started getting VHS tapes in late 1989 & fell in love with the Japanese promotions as I got my 1st actual VCR in early 1990, my mom had one in the living room lol. There's my introduction to wrasslin. I'll always prefer the other promotions actually from the past.

[@sarnobat2000]

Indeed whatever little of AWA I've seen on ESPN looks no different to a 1950s presentation.

[@primusvsunicron1]

That’s because Verne was a wrestler from the 1950s

[@sarnobat2000]

@@primusvsunicron1 Oh yeah, the Jim Cornette of his day in hating change. The way Jim wishes wrestling is still like the 80s. If I had a promotion I'd make it look like 1992 WWF and not let anyone change it. For the good of the business you need a disruptor like Bischoff, Heyman, Khan to reimagine wrestling for the new consumer.

[@franklinrichardson757]

Trust me Junior would had weasel his way into a territory and Sr. Would had gave him a tounge wagging but he would had started his own Wrestling promotion to spite him meaning Vince sr

[@shuriKen469]

i bet the full drive thru is about to drop any second now.

[@jeffnettleton3858]

I started with Bruiser's WWA, which was even duller than the AWA. Then we got ICW, which looked low end, but had entertaining and exciting angles. Then, I saw, in quick succession, Memphis and the WWF Madison Square Garden matches (1982). The MSG stuff was boring as hell, until Backlund and Snuka went at it and the one time I saw Tiger Mask. Then I found GCW, on WTBS, after we got cable and it was night and day. Plus, on Sundays, with Best of World Championship Wrestling, you could see matches from Mid-South and Mid-Atlantic and the WWF, even post-expansion, never had a chance. World Class blew away anything Vince Sr or Jr was doing, until it started to implode, from everything that happened).

[@carloslozada470]

What if ? If if was a fifth we'd all be drunk

[@nohbuddy1]

Damn that question is good maybe they should answer more questions from that guy he seems really cool

[@danielburger1775]

Other people have sent the exact same question in, but never got it answered.

[@nohbuddy1]

@@danielburger1775 Yeah but he picked that one and they should use more questions from him because he seems really cool

[@BombaLuLu84]

@@nohbuddy1 Was it you? 😂

[@nohbuddy1]

@@BombaLuLu84 Possibly. But I'm sure the guy who asked it is really cool

[@jernigan007]

I am NOT CJ in Virginia , I am in FL

[@timmyotoole7312]

That doesnt work for me brother

[@HyperActive7]

Honestly, I think the territories would have hung on longer had Vince not taken daddies company. I don't think the territories would have lasted past the nineties because I remember how wrestling had changed as our generation who were babies when the first WrestleMania happened who had turned into kids who were looking for something different. I also don't think the WWF would have gotten as big as it did because the majority of the superstars would have been working for Turner and Vince senior would eventually turn his company over to his son, but it wouldn't be so dramatic to where Vince gobbles up everything to more like a North Versus South scenario where you have the Undertakers, Hogans, Stings, and Ric Flairs working for Turner who could also pull in Andre and Iron Sheik.

[@jaystreet7748]

I think the biggest difference between Vince McMahon and Jim Cornett is the Jim Cornett wants to do with wrestling fans want to see he wants to do wrestling and give the fans what they want. Vince McMahon is trying to appeal to a wider audience. Hence the sizzle not the steak most people that are casuals or less don’t care about the actual wrestling they want to see someone that’s entertaining the wrestling just have to hold their attention for seven minutes they wanna go see the guy who’s compelling we can talk shit. That’s where the balance comes in do you need both of these guys in wrestling to make it great

[@IrishCarney]

Seems like absurd greed to demand your son pay you for a company that you could just hand over to him

[@GlassJoe1337]

I said it in the WrestleMania video but I think NWA would be around but the bigger territories would have bought up the some of the other territories. Maybe 1 national NWA show which is a national show and separate regional territory show. If it's a territories time to host the national broadcast they can use the wrestlers on the national show for their regional shows. Maybe tape 2-4 national shows the first day and 2-4 regional shows a day later. Local talent could put over the bigger talent on the national broadcast but help in the regional broadcast.

[@SensiofRabbitude]

Didn't Vince once promise the other major territory owners that he was going to use his national TV to give them all exposure, like he'd broadcast their match of the week or bring in their top guys for a short run and put them on tv? Well I guess he at least brought in their top guys.....didn't really give any of them back though.

[@GrimeBot-io7ho]

10:53 Jim ain't kidding. Fuck around with some hot-headed Boricua and find out.

[@skyhighjaysly3623]

I hear that. Im from the Toronto area. It was 99% WwF style here. Saw the odd bit of other stuff. But on a trip to Florida I caught some other promotion on tv. No idea. Prob around 1985. Inwas blown away. There was fireballs. Blood. It was so hard hitting. I remeber a clothesline, the guy did the 360 full spin around the arm. It looked loke it killed him to my 10 year old WwF mind. It looked HARD

[@omarporter851]

The company would have gone out of business. The reason Hulk Hogan doesn't the AWA.

[@marcelmoreau2733]

Verne's tv was the Cnadian Maple Leaf Wrestling of the U. All smidcard squashing jobber matches. No ongoing stories or really top level talent.

[@carloscolon3331]

Interesting very interesting

[@christopherclinton8631]

Disney on ice lol. vince sr. was a great promoter and had integrity.

[@pleaseshutup7053]

I’m learning about 80s wrestling since I know so little man. I am just fascinated with everything. Do you have any recommendations on some hidden gems in the early 80s that aren’t talked about?

[@christopherclinton8631]

@@pleaseshutup7053 John arezzi pro wrestling spotlight is great for history and he has vintage interviews with Lou thesz, buddy rogers, Jim cornette, Paul e dangerously aka Heyman, and others. If you're talking about watching matches or shows there are great unedited shows from the 80s on dailymotion and if the website is still up stagevu.

[@chadk890]

To be fair Vince's shows were selling out arenas back then. Hogan-Andre 33 million viewers on TV. Everyone wanted to make the big money in New York

[@christopherclinton8631]

@@chadk890 That's true the hogan andre segment got a high rating but not everyone wanted to go to the wwf there were many stars in crockett like road warriors, Midnight, rock-n-roll, Koloff, flair, sting etc also turned down vince in the 80s and many wrestlers like bruno thesz and rogers called wwf an embarrassment during that time.

[@kennethrawlings7265]

Wrestling was never meant to go national

[@natesmart9959]

Never was, and it’s been ruined since. It either should’ve just died out, or remained territories. Because the last 30 years have proven it’s over and it’s been that way for a long time now Imo

[@pleaseshutup7053]

Wrestling could have gone national and maintained its territories. Wrestling was gonna go national with or without Vince. Fritz was the first to try it

[@FerretJohn]

I think it would have failed. Vince Sr. was old-school, he had the best talent and the best area to promote but under Vince Sr. it would have still remained a Territory and would have died along with them. People like to say Junior killed the Territories and he certainly had a hand in it, but what really did the Territories in was the changing world. The Territories had become dependent on TV, titles didn't change and feuds weren't started and settled on the road anymore, they were done on their main TV shows, and when Cable started replacing the local networks local wrestling suffered and collapsed. Vince Sr. ran his shows in a pretty consistent format, he put his focus on the main events and generally left the undercards pretty light, and with very little pizzazz. To make it on the National Cable stage, and to attract the younger MTV crowd, the WWF required more sizzle and pop, a lot more, Senior didn't have that, Junior did.

[@pleaseshutup7053]

He did not have the best talent. Stampede and nwa had the best talent

[@natesmart9959]

@@pleaseshutup7053 exactly

[@pleaseshutup7053]

@@natesmart9959 if Vince sr. Had the best talent why did Vince have to steal from everyone lol. The best guy they had was Andre the giant who was part time. Same now that I think about it they’ve always been about part time guys starting with Andre

[@KHayes666]

@@pleaseshutup7053 Exactly, Vince Jr had to raid talent because Vince Sr had kept a set crew in New York for years including Snuka, Putski, Andre, Backlund and the unholy trio of Blassie, Wizard and Albano.

[@FerretJohn]

@@KHayes666 "Raiding talent" has always been used a little too loosely by the Smarks, among other things. By their nature, wrestlers are largely Gypsies, a few can make a living in one place but for the most part they moved from Territory to Territory as their drawing power within the promotion waxed and waned, wrestlers move to regain their heat or because they're too hot and someone else can pay them more, wrestlers move because the local drama gets too ugly, wrestlers retire and get out of the business, old talent go, new talent comes in, the wheel keeps turning. Now true, who exactly had the best talent pool can be debatable (Stampede had some good talent, but most wrestlers weren't fond of Stampede, the weather sucked and unless you had your own plane the travel between towns was a not fun), but most overall agree that the WWE had the better draws, Vince Sr. had the best for his day and style while Vince Jr. went looking for people who fit his vision better: bigger and more colorful, and yes he also raided to remove the best from his competition.

[@DoppelgangerShockwave]

Because of coast-to-coast cable, I think Vince Sr. would've been forced to spread out nationally in order to keep the WWF in busines. He would've likely had a conversation with all the promoters about working together to run in each other's territory rather than just buying out every territory through brute force the way Vince Jr. did.

[@WickedCool23]

If he had done that, he likely would’ve been poached by more ruthless promoters

[@cwalser544]

Only 20 woman on this Earth are the wealthiest, and only 1 out of the 20 earned their money without the inheritance of their fathers.

[@SmegulonPrime]

But daddy said sell...

[@lawrenceluebbert21]

Jim Disney on ice cornette. Thats it..

[@williamgregory1848]

Even if Vince Sr didn’t sell to to Vince Jr, Vince Jr would still be the rightful heir to the WWF. It only made sense because the only successors to Vince Sr would have been Gorilla Monsoon and Arnold Skaaland since they held stakes in the company.

[@scottreardon6697]

I never understood the sale… it says a lot about how Vince was raised, and explains why Vince made some of the frugal decisions that were made. It’s not like the Steinbrenner or Bus kids had to buy their Fathers teams respectively.

[@fayerson]

Jim forgets that WCCW was syndicated around the world . WCCW was had a great show and product .hard hitting action with BELIEVABLE talent in the ring . WCCW blew Memphis out of the water . He is only putting over the wrestling he grew up with. I know things didn’t go as planned financially for Jim in world class, but for him to ignore that promotion and constantly put over Memphis is comical .

[@bigbrother1137]

It's still real to me DAMNIT!!

[@kevinkeller5635]

Put it to bed

[@pleaseshutup7053]

Love it. It is real

[@richardcoreno]

WCCW merged pop culture w/ pro wrestling -- but the music, music videos, snappy ring entrances were used to enhance the ring product tell a better story. It is lost in the way Vince has used the WCCW video library -- in his quest to bury actual pro wrestling history to make the industry appear to have been solely centered on HIM bringing it outta some stone age.

[@moralesharold87]

In the WCCW dvd all that was discussed and praised.

[@palaguin]

A New York style is usually going to be more universally appealing than a Southern one, so a Vince Sr. WWF would be hard to beat if he was willing to go national. I hated wrestling for stopping my Saturday morning cartoon watching growing up, and resented Jerry Lawler for this until I was in adulthood, but by then I discovered the British Bulldogs and WWF and remained a watcher until 2014-5. Aside for a one year period between June 1998-summer 1999 where I watched both Raw and Nitro I never could stand to watch anyting else. I seldom bothered with TNA even when many of my favorite wrestlers went there. Both here and the previous question about this makes me think that Corny doesn't realize that Junior had to pay various associates of Senior's for the WWF like Albano or else he lost the company.

[@moses0686]

For all the people that are saying it would have died because people would have eventually found out it wasn't a legit fight. THEY ALREADY KNEW. Even if his father is relatively healthy for a man his age He and the other owners of the company would still eventually retire, probably in the late 80s early 90s. It would have been much harder in the 90s but I still believe everything that has happened still happens, just differently.

[@svenwagner4717]

Without them themselves embracing it , a big chunk of people would still not be in the know. I mean we are talking about a crowd that believes reality TV, the life of KZbin couples and streamer cliques is real. Wrestling would be no different.

[@dontabaltimore1974]

Jim Crockett Promotions NWA always had the better roster than the WWWF/WWF it didn't get to the DC Baltimore area until 1985 had never seen the NWA

[@Chaz4543]

Yeah the WWE was never built on having great matches so when you see these people today complaining about the matches on RAW or NXT I just dont get it. Do they not know what made WWE successful in the first place ? It wasnt the matches, it was the star power/characters which they severely lack now which is why ratings and overall interest are much lower than they've ever been.

[@NeverImageEntertainment]

We watched both NWA and WWF… why choose? Both were great and at totally different time slots. Jim undercuts wwf tv from 78-83, it was rich with angles and shock. Wasn’t just squash.

[@southerngospel]

Him and dooley watched it on the MSG network wchich was crap. The tapings at allentown were much better,,,but still didnt hold a candle to the southern promotions.

[@secularbelt]

There is no Vince Jr. Vince K would have been a colossal failure. VKM has failed at every endeavor outside of WWE. Every single one. Buying TV from crocket Evil Kenevil Wcw invasion Icopro WBF XFL XFL again

[@bluntamainia444]

Vince would’ve bought another wrestling promotion or bought a bunch of smaller ones merged them either way Vince would’ve got to the top. He wanted too bad and figured out how to exploit all his competitors weaknesses while he was doing announcing for his dad. No matter what Vince was planning and plotting

[@pleaseshutup7053]

He wouldn’t have had the resources that New York gave him and would have failed.

[@henrygvidonas9573]

Bought them with... what exactly? Vince and Linda's business outside his CWC/WWWF job went bankrupt in 1976. Every cent he ever made after that came from what his father had built with CWC. Vince has never started a successful company from the ground up. He's a billionaire because his father was a millionaire who handed him an established company with a deal that nobody who wasn't his son would have got from him in a million years. Titan Sports was successful because it took over the CWC business and expanded it. CWC had been around for three decades when Vincent K. got to control it because his father's health was failing. He got to use CWC's future profits to pay for his acquisition of it. Vinnie Lupton's "self-made" story is about as real as Donald Trump's. Vince had the WWF/WWE propaganda machine to sell his fake "from smoke-filled bars to arenas" story, Trump had the "money porn" suckers at Forbes to sell "John Barron's" claims about who owned and controlled the Trump Organization (90+% when in reality it was 0%) in the '80s. Forbes also established Trump's ridiculous lies about his supposed personal wealth as the widely accepted "truth". They had accepted and printed false PR claims fed to them by the Trump Org since 1976. Read Jonathan Greenberg's mea culpa article about how easily Trump tricked him into inflating his net worth by 4000% in 1984 with phone calls from "John Barron" and Roy Cohn. The difference between Vince and Trump is that he's legitimately a billionaire. But his "history" of how and from where he got there is a PR fabrication.

[@mistermay7986]

Crockett with Starrcade was the hint of them going national. Crockett will be on top now

[@KHayes666]

What killed Watts was the US oil market drying up. That would have happened even if Vince didn't go national. Crockett would have absorbed Central States, Georgia and Watts eventually.

[@danielburger1775]

Crockett was always gonna overspend his way into having to sell...

[@mistermay7986]

@@danielburger1775. I disagree. Crockett wasn't always overspending. Till 87

[@erictoro6519]

Not true I have to disagree with jim on the WWE because in the early 80s the WWE fans truly enjoyed the feuds between Jimmy Superfly snuka and ray Stevens and Don Moraco and Madison square garden events in their mein events and every well known heel trying to get Bob Backlunds titles were good old days .the WWE just had a different formula then southern wrestling . It's Vince McMahon Jr that really didn't like wrassling . He just wanted to get rich and turn pro wrestling into a cartoon . Gimmick show . But the WWE was doing fine it's just that the Georgia championship was a good alternative once and a while . I think all promotions were very important but Vince jr messed it up . In my opinion. He just made pro wrestling degenerate . As well like he was . And others copied him. Trying to catch up to the WWE because as time went on America was becoming more demoralized so Vince McMahon Jr projected that from the world and what he was like into his stories. To much smut

[@d.anthony4363]

Pro Wrestling would be the dead by now, the reason territory worked was because people believed its real. Even if VKM didn't reveal its not real, people will eventually become smarter and they will stop watching once they find out its staged fight

[@KHayes666]

True....but at the same time WCW until Russo came along never said it was fake long after Vince Jr said it was.

[@pleaseshutup7053]

You are wrong by the 80s majority fans knew it was a work they just didn’t know how it worked Vince exposed everything made it more of a circus he lost his way by beating the competition and turning pg

[@drg5352]

People knew it was a work back in the 30's. Jack Pfefer exposed the business long before there was even TV. Hell when I was growing up, my grandfather would point out how they were doing stuff. He was a Korean War vet, and knew how a fight looked. He still caught Memphis wrestling every Saturday, up until they went to the midnight slot. People got into wrestling the same reason they got into Chuck Norris movies. Everyone except a few knew they weren't "real fights", but we all got into them regardless. The same sort of people now who are saying "people believed it was real" back then are the same sort of people who think there really was a Texas Ranger named Cordell Walker, and who looked exactly like Chuck Norris. Only the mentally ill believed wrestling was real from the 30's and 40's and 50's and on. People just got into it, same as how we have nerds now literally getting into fights over Thor vs Superman from the comics.

[@user-hc9qv9yb9m]

If you want serious wrestling, watch the real sport

[@user-hc9qv9yb9m]

I didn't think NWA/WCW production values weren't up to par compared to WWF. That studio wrestling matches looked cheap as hell. Let us not forget the AWA was on ESPN!

[@Sasfoot]

When is comes to contemporary wrestling, Corny is oblivious. When it comes to questions like this, you take him seriously. I didn't have cable until 1997 and grew up on the WWF syndicated shows on Saturday & Sunday at noon here on Long Island. After seeing how amazing NWA Powerrr was in 2019, I started watching old GCW/WCW shows here on KZbin, and they were great (except for the brief Vinnie Mac era). Top talent actually doing live, in studio segments instead of pre-recorded promos in front of their logo, upper mid and upper card talent facing each other instead of jobbers, title matches, etc.

[@marcelmoreau2733]

I disagree with jim. As someone who grow up watching mostly WWE and some AWA before I saw anything from Memphis or anywhere else too boring too manybland, uninteresting characters with stilted personalities characters. Southern wrestling was not better in Northern it was different. As you say in one sentence different areas were trained in their fans differently to like different things. I don't know about you but I've never been in or seen a real fight that lasted more than five or six minutes why would I want to watch a wrestling match go on for an hour or half an hour every week just gets boring and repetitive seeing the same shit over and over and over again. You constantly complain about the chop and the forearms shots that happen now but the same kind of crap happened in every single Ric Flair match every single match of that style that you praise so loudly. Short spurts of action long periods of rest to catch their breaths that you call selling followed by repeating the same moves over and over for 30 40 or 50 minutes is not entertaining it's boring. If you seen one Ric Flair match you seen them all. You like complaining about Kevin Nash and his five moves of Doom but Ric Flair had the same kind of crap at 5 or 16 things he did every single match he repeated them he threw in some woos to the crowd yet you consider him a great worker. I can't remember a single Ric Flair match I've ever seen I found interesting from the '80s.

[@lsj6721]

That is the thing. What I found as entertaining wrestling for me was somewhere in the middle of what you discussed and those of the so-called trampoline cowboys… something that they have done during the era called “ruthless aggression”

[@marcelmoreau2733]

@@lsj6721 exactly, jim showing hypo racy by denouncing other wrestling as boring and dismissing opinions of millions of fans who liked it claiming hia opinion of what was good wrestling is valid is EXACTLY the same as even Russo or others he aleays says are idiots. Diff people like diff things and his over inflated opinion of framkly most dull and outlandish storglines with people he likes compared to what he doesnt like is pure hypocrisy. There was always good and bad in every territory and e ery promotion. There was just as much 'cartoon buulcrap' in the nwa as in any version of wwwf or wwf or wwe.

[@alexandersloan826]

1ST

[@lead.farmer]

33rd

[@Forever_Thatter]

to get the Clap.

[@homelessjesse9453]

Jericho avoided the jab - he’s still wrestling. Meanwhile Triple H had to retire after endless jabs. Question - do you think Corny will ever admit he’s wrong on Covid. Or will he continue to use the very lame “Jericovid” as some form of burn?

[@lautheimpaler4686]

What are you even talking about fool ? HHH CHOSE to retire. And he's in a much better shape than fat ass Jericho.

[@Cruising_On_Lake_Havasoma]

Trash.

[@dexenationgracey1979]

How is that relevant to this video?

[@ericgaudet497]

Which Young Buck is this trolling us JC fans? Nick or Matt?

[@drillosophy1012]

What?

[@nkotbfreak2983]

Its rare but i disagree with Jim here i grew up on WWF and when i fist saw the NWA i didnt really like it at all. Gordon Solie was so boring compared to the wwf announcers, the studio tv taping made it look so cheap and small time compared to the bright arenas on WWF Superstars and Challenge.

[@KHayes666]

You're looking at it through the perspective of what actually happened. In this alternate reality where Vince Sr doesn't sell to Junior, there's no Hulkamania, no Superstars and no high flying tag Team matches with the tag teams junior raided from other promotions. In that reality WWF fans would see Flair, Race, Dusty & Horsemen in all sorts of hot angles and like that better than Backlund vs Bundy at that point.

[@nopenottoday8490]

TRUMP 2024

[@rxnupe]

Trump for prison 2024