Jiren Vs Broly | The Final Verdict

[@dawall3732]

Several problems with a lot of your metrics. You are automatically running on the assumption that all the gods of destruction for every universe are equal in power. You are also running on the assumption that Jiren's feats are based on power alone. It's stated multiple times that the different gods of destruction for each universe are not equal in power or skill. It's also been stated multiple times that Jiren's abilities are based more on his control, finesse and precision than raw power. It's never stated that he does not have raw power. Just that that's not the basis of his abilities, techniques, and skills. Broly, on the other hand, has been stated to develop skill and ability instinctively during a fight and have power that increases continuously exponentially. This was actually stated by Toriyama, who said that Broly is the most powerful individual in his entire creation with the greatest potential. Ultimately, that's why Toriyama made sure 3 things were done during the Broly Supper movie that not many people point out or pay attention to. 1. Going super saiyan God or super saiyan red as it's sometimes called, was made a spectacle with lots of flashy visual effects to emphasize the transformation and the state. 2. When fighting Vegeta, vegeta stated that he was learning and developing during the fight beyond normal levels of comprehension. 3. Gojita did not go super saiyan red. He jumped straight to blue. Toriyama made it this way specifically to point out that if Gojita went super saying red then into blue Broly would have adapted and grown in power and skill exponentially to match and then overcome him.

[@mrperfectcell5079]

@@dawall3732 they aren’t equal exactly but they do all reside within the same domain of power. Every time we see gods of destruction fight it’s always a back and forth battle, so when going by the anime there is a consistent narrative that the gods of destruction are all around the same level, so I ask when was it stated that the gods aren’t equal? Jirens was constantly hyped up throughout the tournament for his power. How he glared away the spirit bomb, tanking goku and vegetas strongest attacks, or breaking his limits vs UI Goku, it’s always been about his strength not his abilities or skill. Even the statements comparing him to the gods say he has “Stength” and “Power” beyond them, so idk why it wouldn’t be talking about his raw power Meanwhile broly while he does have remarkable adaptability, cannot control his powers at all. When he went SSJ he completely lost his mind which actually ended up nerfing his power to some extent, as it’s been shown many times that your ki output while drop when not in the right mind. Two of the components of ki that being shoki, and yuki, are based on mental components, so broly literally cannot tap into his full power. While toriyama has said broly is the strongest saiyan he can’t actually use his full power making him actually weaker than jiren and mastered ultra instinct goku, as broly was more so a rival to beerus than surpassing him.

[@dawall3732]

The only one that emphasizes Jiren's power in the anime is Goku. Everyone else just refers to his skill and ability. Sometimes referring to his (greatness). It is actually Goku who refers to anyone above him as powerful and does so continuously. He does the exact same thing with the omni King Zeno. Who as far as I can tell has powers based on magic, not kie. (Though I am actually still looking through the Manga to find clues as to that.)

[@mrperfectcell5079]

​ ​ @dawall3732 So let me just list off some sources that refer to his insane power "His power is said to even match that of a God of Destruction!" - V Jump "His fighting power surpasses that of a god of destruction" -Dragon Ball Cardass "He lightly exercises power that surpasses the gods of destruction and overwhelms Goku." -V Jump "his power has reached the realm of a god of destruction." -DBS Website "he strongest warrior of Universe 11. He is silent and cool, yet boasts a formidable strength. It is said that his power has reached the level of a God of Destruction." -Wafer Sticker Description "His true abilities are said to extend into the domain of the gods of destruction" -DBS Design Sheets "In reality, his strength easily reaches the God of Destruction" -Dragon Ball Cardass "Like a god of destruction.. he is one who has reached that state or maybe even surpassed it" -Whis "Jiren, the strongest warrior of Universe 11! Facing the strongest foe in Dragon Ball history," -Saikyo Jump "This power feels different from anyone we have faced before" -Shin "I've never encountered an energy as strong and heavy as this" -Vegeta "Ive never been hit by such a strong attack before" -Goku Now there are many many MANY more statements of characters, and guides, talking about his power, but i think you can see everything from Guides, to websites, to charcters in the series all reference his insane power and strength with all statements comparing him to the gods using words like "power", "fighting power" or "strength", so i dont see where you are getting the idea they are refencing his skill and such Also zeno is NEVER stated to have magic based abilities, they always use terminology such as power, and strength to describe him.

[@rodthedigger2902]

Great video!

[@spritvio639]

No. PERFECT Video.

[@ForceFire472]

​@@spritvio639ah I see what you did there

[@Wexor.]

Another issue with Broly "probably above Beerus" statement is the fact that it's statement made by Toriyama. Movie timeline is by itself written directly by him, in which we have no actual clue how strong Jiren was, however based on what Vegeta says in Superhero, he was presumably strong but nothing that crazy, while Broly for granted is waaaay above Goku and Vegeta, as there was no gimmick to his strength, no hidden technique, nothing. Even though the movie is stated to be anime continuity, it doesn't disprove that the statement was made by Toriyama who couldn't give a single fuck about how strong Jiren was potrayed in anime or even manga. So even though anime blatantly puts Jiren above Beerus Toriyama's intention could be something like Broly>~>Jiren>~Goku and Vegeta You can also give the "probably stronger than Beerus" other intepretations besides it refering to maybe Controlled Broly or just FPSSJ Broly.

[@bigpapan.g3245]

What makes Beerus>>Jiren?

[@Wexor.]

@@bigpapan.g3245 Because Broly is maybe/probably or might be above Beerus in movie timeline while at the same time Jiren is implied to not be much above ToP Goku/Vegeta. And Broly is for granted waay above Goku and Vegeta, so Beerus should too

[@bigpapan.g3245]

@@Wexor. No, the Jiren comment is regarding raw strength. Not Ki. DB has a massive distinction between raw strength and ki, representing power. Here are some other notable examples: *1.* In the DBS anime (ep16), Whis explains to Vegeta the importance of energy control over raw power: *[SUB]* "I see you've substantially increased your power through training. But no matter how long you try, you'll never beat Beerus sama that way. Learn to control your energy. If you can do that... *[DUB]* "You've achieved considerable power through what I assume is intense physical training, but if you continue focusing on power alone, you'll never defeat Lord Beerus. The most crucial skill you lack is a method for controlling your energy. If you can learn that... *2.* Whis explains to the Oracle fish the importance of Ki as one's power (ep18). *[SUB]* "They need to raise the level of their ki... otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger" This goes along with Whis' plan as to how he wants to train the Saiyans, which he hinted at before (referring to 1.^) *3.* Chouzenshuu 1 states: "Because there are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, it is necessary to increase one's ki to overcome this barrier and become stronger." *4.* Spirit Control Spirit Control is the same as Ki, as stated in Chapter 52: "What we call Spirit, Goku called Chi" One's Ki/Spirit is demonstrated as crucial for one's true power. Vegeta, in _Super Hero,_ continues this training style after recognizing how significant it was when Jiren displayed it. "You must achieve balance in body and mind" (chapter 53). "Before your training here, your body and spirit were so off-balance that you couldn't project your own power very well" (chapter 55).

[@Wexor.]

@@bigpapan.g3245 I don’t see a reason why would it talk about physical strength as the body is very limited in db. You increase your strength by controlling your ki and growing it. Our characters without ki would be pretty fodder, and besides that, there is no way for Vegeta to gauge just Jiren’s physical strength. Not to mention pretty much every statement like “X is stronger than Y” refer to powerlevel and not physical strength

[@bigpapan.g3245]

@@Wexor. It talks about physical strength because Goku disregards meditation and ki control compared to actively training their body. Many moments in DB make a clear note that training your body is less efficient than training your ki. - In the manga Vegeta essentially completes the training the film describes. The end result, Jiren's control equals power.

[@matthewadams1674]

I always took Vegeta's statement as ki control basically being an amp of sorts since that's the only way you can really make sense of that statement+what we've seen.

[@dimensionvisitor7689]

i mean, in moro arc, it's also just shown that ki control amps one's attack

[@shephardburnout3]

the way I see it: Jiren (beyond limits), MUI Goku (before that shitty friend boost) and Gogeta Blue all three are on the same level. Speaking of the manga, Jiren did also outlast MUI thanks to his sheer determination, he has the ability to increase his power at will and adapt to the opponents he's facing

[@mrperfectcell5079]

That’s actually not too far off of what I believe

[@uzookafor8721]

First of all, that boost mui goku had becuase of his friends is beautiful and not shitty knuckle head. Mui goku outclassed jiren in the manga and anime before gokus body collapsed

[@JJJJ-he8bz]

People really make the argument that mui is on the level of it’s own fusion just to gas you jiren. Gogeta would have shredded jiren

[@uzookafor8721]

@@JJJJ-he8bz nopeeee, mui goku and jiren are fusion level characters. Current jiren where ever he is>>gogeta blue.

[@JJJJ-he8bz]

Gas, Grenola, Moro, black freiza have all cooked ultra instinct even one shot it. To suggest that a version of ultra which is the weakest is on the same level as it’s own fusion is nonsense. Especially when Gogeta was shown in base and just basic super sayain to be far stronger than both blue goku and vegeta fighting together.

[@eugenekrabs2403]

I thought Gogeta vs Vegito was in that Big 3 of controversial DB vs match-ups

[@justsomeshinychewtlewitham6097]

Its not because its too one sided

[@dimensionvisitor7689]

it's really not, in canon material, there's only one promotional material that claims the 2 are equal, while about 10 other more reliable source state vegito is superior

[@mvp746]

@@dimensionvisitor7689the 10 “reliable sources” are heavily misinterpreted,theres only like 2 sources that you can use that even say that Vegito is stronger than Fusion,and even then they don’t specify Gogeta as Gogeta can just be a way above normal fusion Warrior. I actually think the guide that states they are equally matched trump cards should be the only canon used one,because when Vegito was stated stronger back then Gogeta didn’t really exist at all,and we know Vegito was stronger than Elder Kai anticipated Potara will make him so that could and probably is the same with Gogeta. The only two beings who did fusion at the time were Goten and Trunks and even without Fusion they are basically the same person,and metamoran literally gave them a huge fucking amp taking them from arguably android saga relevancy to equal grounds with Super Buu,not to mention it gave them access to SS3 which is a showing way greater than Vegito’s.

[@dimensionvisitor7689]

@@mvp746 "theres only like 2 sources that you can use that even say that Vegito is stronger than Fusion" there already 3 sources in manga alone that states vegito > gogeta, elder kai states potara is superior to fusion dance, buuhan (who has full knowledge on how strong fusion dance make you and has the combined intelligence of gohan and piccolo) states fusion dance of goku and vegeta stand no chance against him, vegito states this is way stronger than he expected and he came into the fight with the expectation of vegito being stronger than gogeta yet vegito still far exceeded his expectation. "they don’t specify Gogeta as Gogeta can just be a way above normal fusion Warrior." appeal to ignorance, just because they don't specify gogeta doesn't mean gogeta is an abnormal fusion nor does it mean gogeta is anywhere close to vegito. "I actually think the guide that states they are equally matched trump cards should be the only canon used one,because when Vegito was stated stronger back then Gogeta didn’t really exist at all" that guide itself might not even be a canon source due to it being a promotional material and it also only apply to DBS movies as gogeta is still non canon to DBS anime and "gogeta = vegito" statement does not exist in DBS manga. while it is true when vegito was stated to be stronger, gogeta doesn't exist yet, but many people in verse or out verse knows how strong he's going to be. "and we know Vegito was stronger than Elder Kai anticipated Potara will make him so that could and probably is the same with Gogeta." vegito is stronger than anticipated because of the rival boost, there's nothing that indicate gogeta has the same rival boost. even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say gogeta would be stronger than anticipated, there's still no proof on it being an equal to vegito, anticipated or actuality regardless due to it being an arbitrary head canon boost. "taking them from arguably android saga relevancy to equal grounds with Super Buu,not to mention it gave them access to SS3 which is a showing way greater than Vegito’s." goten is actually relative to potential unlock gohan according to guides, the only thing he's lacking is the ability to fly. also giving them access to ss3 doesn't really mean jack, all it means is the fusion warrior has higher potential than the individuals before fusing. I could also argue how potara's "A*B" multiplier + "perfect fighter" status is an infinitely greater showing than simply giving you enough potential to allow you to gain access to a higher form

[@mvp746]

@@dimensionvisitor7689 in your first point you just said what i said,Elder Kai thinks Vegito will be stronger than with Fusion but then after Vegito is actually Born he admits he was wrong snd that Vegito is actually even stronger than he thought,meaning the same can be said for Fusion,once fused the result can be a warrior stronger than Potara for all the elder kai knows. The Buu arguments stems from Seth’s stupidity,of course Buu is going to say they won’t do shit to him even if they fuse,hell Buuhan literally states even Vegito can’t do anything to him he literally downplays Vegito and says it still doesn’t matter that they fused and gets disproven seconds later. The guide is canon because the guide is in reference to the Broly movie which is canon to the anime & manga which means Gogeta is canon in all continuities,lmao you’re like the only person on earth who thinks Gogeta is non-canon to the anime. That’s my point,in DBZ nobody knows how strong Gogeta is going to be,the only time we see Gogeta is in Z Movies and games,Games which mind you he always fights Broly,a guy who is confirmed to be stronger than Z Vegito and Buuhan,not that that matters or anything i just pointed out how Gogeta can’t be dismissed easily. And there is actually in-verse proof of Metamoran and Potara having the same exact increase,Vados states Kefla’s power combines the fusees and multiplies it by tens of times,Gogeta states his power not only combines the fusees power but significantly multiplies them,meaning in-verse Gogeta and Vegito have the same statements when it comes to their multipliers. “Goten is relative to potential unlock gohan” lmfao what? Not only did the guide not state this at all,it just said Goten rivals a heavily rusty Gohan,the guide is heavily disproven. Goten and Trunks individually in Base struggle against even Namek Frieza level fighters even years after Buu Saga in “Yo-Son Goku and his Friends return” which is canon,at SSJ and post HTC they are at best android saga level if not at best Cell Jr level,which is evident as it takes two of them to fight on par with Android 18 in the tournament and even in the dbs manga they fight on par with Cell Jrs as Super Saiyans which basically confirms my point. And the “perfect fighter” statement against Gogeta is redundant as Gogeta didn’t exist. Of course Vegito is the perfect fighter in a world without Gogeta,in a world where they both exists,so in dbs,they are stated equals. And factually Gogeta has some wierd interesting Techniques that we never see with Vegito so if anything Gogeta might actually have the ever so slight “upper hand” if you will. Even OG guides in Z state that in a Z Gogeta vs Z Vegito fight the only deciding factor is the time limit,as in 30 mins Gogeta shits on Vegito but if Vegito can survive for 30 mins then Gogeta loses because he defuses.

[@drj894]

I do disagree with the out come but I understand cause there is a lot of different stuff and things that do need to be taking into consideration when taking about statements for stuff

[@drj894]

Now in my opinion I think broly still has better feats fighting gogeta blue who yes I believe is far above mui goku from the top due to the fusion multipler being the best of both mean base form alone is stronger than the strongest form and whether or not goku still had ui within him is up to you I believe he still had it in him but you could debate on it but the fact gogeta still when blue meaning he didn’t even think ssj3 or god was enough says a lot In conclusion in I do think broly fpssj >>>lb jiren But it’s ok if you disagree with me give a comment if you disagree with me if you want do whatever I’m fine with it idc I love all opinions and I’d like to see your Not but love and respect in my comments

[@cory6640]

@@drj894 Exactly!!!! Normal SSJ1 Broly vs FP Jiren is much more of a debate. Broly should win that anyway, since Broly adapts and grows way faster

[@SpiderFlowKing]

@@cory6640Facts this guy didn’t watch the video

[@cory6640]

@@SpiderFlowKing No doubt. TBH, Jiren fans just can't get over how their favourite bad character isn't strong anymore since that's all there is to him 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@MajestiBrown]

5:11 This is exactly why using promotional statements is pointless. Official statements made by people other than Toriyama can have errors. I guess you can say that anime-only Jiren is stronger than Broly if you assume that Whis wasn’t joking when he said Belmod is stronger than Beerus. But in the minds of Toriyama and Toyotaro, Jiren is clearly weaker than Beerus. Manga statements also show that too so we can’t say for sure who is stronger between Broly and Jiren.

[@mrperfectcell5079]

I mean I 100% agree in the manga jiren is portrayed as sub beerus by in the anime there’s just too much evidence for jiren And I don’t think whis was really joking about that belmod>Beerus as in context he is trying to warn goku and Vegeta about the strength of the other universes so I think he just wanted to point that out as well as make fun of beerus for the fact he is weaker than belmod

[@MajestiBrown]

@@mrperfectcell5079 If the anime continues and adapts the Moro and Granolah arcs, do you think they’ll continue with the idea of Beerus being surpassed by Jiren and MUI Goku? Or do you think they will keep the manga lines that show that Beerus is still stronger than them?

[@mrperfectcell5079]

@@MajestiBrown not sure about that cus scaling between the manga and the anime often differs even in their respective arcs like zamasu being a match for blue goku yet in the anime he’s far stronger or vegito blue being relative to beerus in the manga while in the anime he obviously isnt

[@bigpapan.g3245]

@@MajestiBrown The anime and manga are vastly too different in too many ways to validate scaling and additional official claims to overtake each other. It is far too evident that the anime and manga should be treated as individual takes on DBS. We don't know if the anime will do the Moro and Granolah arcs. - _Superhero_ implies the film did not consider the manga's 'exclusive' arcs for its take; is backed by: 1.) inaccurate scaling with the manga, 2.) a direct claim that the film is solely a continuation from _Broly_ 3.) the manga is doing its own version of _Superhero_ and has already displayed notable differences for why we can't mix power scaling

[@MajestiBrown]

@@bigpapan.g3245 I know that there are 3 continuities with different power scaling, but if Toriyama wants Jiren and Goku to be weaker than Beerus, then the anime arcs moving forward will have to listen to him. Beerus being surpassed is a huge deal. If the future anime arcs line up with the manga lines, then that means that Whis was joking about Belmod being stronger than Beerus. We’ll see if the anime continues, but I don’t think Belmod is actually stronger than Beerus in the anime continuity.

[@justsomeshinychewtlewitham6097]

I have 1 issue with that match up here and its that you didn't bring up Broly's adaptaion , if Broly is already GOD level adapting to Jiren wouldn't be too hard for him when he is fresh (against Gogeta he adapted but was taken out before he was strong enough to win)

[@manofiron5934]

Good video

[@eichler721]

Anima Jiren is far stronger if anyone looks at feats and not just weird statements from people. For the Manga its still Jiren when the first find Broly but there is a good argument that during the Super Hero arc Broly has surpassed Jiren.

[@saitama7788]

Lol jiren said himself that he can't win against fuse vegeta and goku

[@theone8276]

_Jiren never said this._

[@mvp746]

@@theone8276i think the guy is referring to Super DBH,with that being said Jiren doesn’t need to say this as just power scaling wise any Fusion between Goku and Vegeta in the ToP especially by the end of it would shit on Jiren without even the need of the God Forms.

[@cjmax_822]

Highballing Jiren but he still beats Broly, but nothing is confirmed other than him being stronger than belmod

[@jamainegardner4193]

I'll watch the video more properly later, but what about the Endurance gap?

[@mrperfectcell5079]

Base jiren i think has some pretty good endruance feats so i do think he could contend with broly in tha aspect, awakened jiren def has way worse endurance than broly, but i think jiren is just too powerful for that to really matter

[@jamainegardner4193]

​@@mrperfectcell5079 given how Wrathful Broly took attacks from SSJG Vegeta when he was barely starting to press SSJ2 Vegeta, then went on to continue fighting for over an hour before Gogeta wrecked his shit and was still conscious even after that, his endurance seems to close and overcome whatever power gap there might be (even Jiren > all 12 GoDs vs Broly > just Beerus). Especially since Jiren gasses out after only 1m 45s against his only even fight.

[@nanner6335]

@@jamainegardner4193jiren was tanking hits from ui and mui goku throughout the entire tournament

[@jamainegardner4193]

@@nanner6335 that's not endurance. If you get hit by a fly's leg that does not constitute damage

[@mvp746]

@@jamainegardner4193use the word “stamina” instead of endurance if you want db fans to understand you lmao

[@dsm2417]

This one is interesting but literally only goes to one answer with the statements. But i believe jiren has more statements and implications to be above even in base full power. Supported by superhero where Goku hypes up jiren with broly. Which might make them relative but since they imply jirens mastery over control he can be depicted as stronger and better than broly

[@totalflashaddict]

Im one of the raging fan boys i think. Broly wins this battle

[@ClubberOntop]

Celly Wellys BACK

[@MonsterHunterPV]

Jiren > Broly, this is really why... Jiren has no actual limit to his power already. He stated this in the manga while fighting Goku n Vegeta, also Whis stated Jirens potential to be immeasurable. Broly is no doubt the Lssj with crazy potential, dope af, but.... Hes clearly been shown to be a rookie and ain't no rookie in the multiverse 1v1ing Jiren lmaoo. MUi bridged the attributes gap. Which goes back to what Whis saying there if FAR more to strength than power alone. I also think no1 is ever besting Beerus 1v1.

[@dimensionvisitor7689]

if a rookie can stomp goku and vegeta while in a far weaker form, what's stopping that rookie from stomping jiren in a WAY stronger form

[@mvp746]

Why are you using the baseball episode to indicate that “Goku has seen Beerus’ full power” how do you know Beerus was going all out? Not only do we have confirmation from Vados that Beerus is stronger than Champa,we know Beerus is the strongest GoD at this point,so how would champa survive if Beerus was going all out? And in the Broly movie if you want to go that route of asserting unsound proof as facts,implies Fusion > MUI and by a longshot,if Broly needed Fusion and a Blue Fusion at that to be beat and a far weaker Goku could mop Jiren with MUI comfortably,Movie Broly one shots Jiren even as a SS,likely even in Base. Seeing how DBS Super Hero is stated to follow the logic of “This Villain stronger than Last” idk why this is even a debate? Broly mops Jiren and its not even close.

[@mrperfectcell5079]

Beerus has no reason to hold back on champs and just let him damage him like that which is consistent since the two are very competitive Feats>statements also vados coulda just said that to make fun of champa besides it’s stated in multiple other sources that they are equal in power Also nothing suggests fusion>mui goku made a statement that fusion>individual fighters yes but he said that back in the buu saga I would just say mui has a greater multiplier than fusion which is consistent with muis feats Now stop invading my comment section of every video with these weak ass arguments you’re ass

[@mvp746]

@@mrperfectcell5079 lmao you’re wrong on so many levels so i’ll debunk you again just like in your other comment sections. Beerus has reason to hold back because if he doesn’t, 1. He’ll kill Champa 2. They are twin brothers and just because you want to beat up your sibling you won’t use your full power to try to beat him over a silly argument 3. We don’t see them power up at all 4. Vados is literally just the author speaking through the character as they knew once they introduce a brother god to Beerus everyone was going to ask who’s stronger? And we know she meant it because right after she asserts that She is actually stronger than Whis,which Whis disagrees with and says that was long ago and now he’s superior and then Vados is basically like “want to test that?” Why wouldn’t Champa have the same reaction if Vados said Beerus is stronger,wouldn’t he say something to the likes of denying it? Not to mention even figuratively they tell you because Champa loses in every competition they have,Baseball,Food,U6vsU7 anything. Literally saying Beerus vs Champa Baseball was Beerus going all out and Goku knows Beerus’ power from that is the most disingenuous argument i’ve ever heard. Feats>Statements Indeed. Do you know what suggests Fusion > MUI in the Broly movie? I for some reason can’t link stuff in youtube anymore because it deletes my comment,But just look it up yourself Movie Broly Goku states that Fusion is verbatim *the only way to beat Broly* and this is a Goku directly after the arc where he used MUI to whoop Jiren,so if Goku knows about MUI and knows MUI can shit on Broly why wouldn’t he be trying to access that but instead disregard it completely and try to fuse,this argument is literally better than anything you have said in your video and is funny enough backed more. Broly also has like 30 guides implying he’s stronger than Jiren,and stop using the hype of ancient guides that said Jiren > GoD’s they are heavily contradicted later on and as is aid are hype material,go with what we were shown and stated in the show,Jiren is stronger than Belmod. Thats the only thing we know and from that we know anyone who Beats Jiren can whoop Belmod easily and if they are yet to surpass Beerus you should be capable of logically assuming, Beerus > Broly > ToP MUI Goku > Jiren > Belmod.

[@mrperfectcell5079]

@@mvp746 I don’t think beerus would care if he killed him and you can go FP without killing someone and wanting to beat someone up who you are pissed off and super competitive against would definitely be an incentive to use your FP as you would be trying to beat the other person so it would make more sense for him to use FP Also you can power up without showing an aura you don’t have to scream or anything that’s usually done for cinematic effect Also prove vados is the author speaking through the character and was assuming everyone was going to ask that question Also show me a statement of champa losing every competition Also I don’t think that statement means broly>mui because goku can’t access mui at will so it isn’t an option to beat broly regardless And jiren has better feats than broly so idc about those strongest enemy statements as they can just be talking about brolys true power which he isn’t able to utilize due to going insane when he gets mad

[@mrperfectcell5079]

@@mvp746 I deleted that last comment cus it covered my entire screen 2x over shorten that shit or I’m not reading it

[@mvp746]

@@mrperfectcell5079 all you need to know is that Beerus >>> Champa its not even close. Broly >>>> Jiren its even a bigger gap. At least according to Goku,Fusion is far superior to Goku’s level of Broly movie MUI which would be superior to the ToP MUI which dogged Jiren.

[@Tak4a]

Good video. But Beerus is stronger than both

[@matthewadams1674]

This is anime continuity, not manga

[@Tak4a]

@@matthewadams1674 you're right. So then yeah I guess Broly and Jiren > Beerus.

[@uzookafor8721]

Jiren >>>broly, nice video

[@nazaren45]

👌

[@ForceFire472]

Broly stomps I'll explain why the broly movie is a direct continuation of both the anime and manga and broly is stated to be the strongest enemy that goku and vegeta have ever faced and at the end of the movie broly is stated to be equal or stronger than beerus by goku and he's seen beerus full power in the manga anime is debatable whether you think beerus was going full power against champa or not i personally don't think he wasn't but anyway toiryama is directly involved in the movies that's literally his canon and vegeta said that jiren in power wasn't that much stronger than them he just used he's ki more efficiently and had a calm mind and didn't waste any unnecessary movements whis agrees with him BTW now the promotional material for super hero says that broly is goku's strongest opponent and once he gets going nobody can stop him excluding fusion the angels or zeno and this is after the moro and granolah saga goku and vegeta are still scared to fight broly even together with thier new forms even beerus was a bit nervous so he's above all the previous antagonists from the manga moro granolah gas and black frieza even cell max was stated to be stronger than broly if he was completed he compared cell max to broly and not anyone else why because narratively and canonically broly is the strongest toiryama treats broly as the pinnacle of power and something for goku and vegeta to surpass like legit it took post TOP goku and vegeta to fuse to beat him and they said is was their only option so SSBK×20 SSBE and MUI would not have been enough and all those villains i mentioned would stomp jiren and broly is far stronger than them i honestly don't know why this is even a debate anymore.

[@matthewadams1674]

Some flaws(especially for the manga). First off Whis himself states that he can't think of anyone stronger than Goku going into the Granolah Arc while having just outright witnessed Broly. There's also Goku's own statement that Moro is the strongest guy he's ever faced. As for your thing about not even UI being enough, Goku didn't have access to UI at that point so it's not part of his arsenal.

[@ForceFire472]

@@matthewadams1674 it's a mess honestly the statement whis made could have been made excluding broly or whis forgot about broly stupid I know but it's a possibility anyway goku said moro is the "toughest" opponent he faced and you could take it two ways tougher either meaning stronger or tougher as in endurance and durability or tenacity cause it literally took months to take moro down that's the longest time ever in dragon ball it took to take a main villian down and yes goku didn't have access to ui in the movie but ui doesn't exist in the movies and is not mentioned at all toiryama is directly involved in the movies so whatever he puts and whatever dialogue the characters say is objectively right and ahundred percent canon so when goku said broly is equal or maybe stronger than beerus then that's how it is and also promotional for the super hero movie saying broly is goku's strongest opponent and once he gets going nobody can stop him excluding fusion angels or zeno and that puts him above all the manga villains you could argue broly's been training on beerus planet so he's gotten stronger but goku mostly focusing on training him to fight better and control his anger and power goku also said that broly hasn't gotten much stronger since the last time they fought which means goku and vegeta never surpassed him this is all stated in the super hero manga as well.

[@MonsterHunterPV]

Trippin hard, Jiren has no limit as stated in manga, Whis even stated his potential is immeasurable. Broly a powerful rookie who Gogeta toyed with, Jiren 1 shots him lol

[@ForceFire472]

@@MonsterHunterPV lol what? In the light novel and promotional material, Broly is stated to be the strongest opponent or enemy in history, toriyama said that jiren was defeated by teamwork, goku said that fusion was the only way to beat broly which means nothing else would've worked, which means base gogeta would stomp jiren and broly was on par with super saiyan gogeta, then broly went full power super saiyan and gogeta couldn't budge him until he went blue and then obviously dominated broly.

[@SpiderFlowKing]

SO HOW IS HE WEAKER THEN WHAT HES MADE UP OF

[@mrperfectcell5079]

Goku can surpass his own fusion via his forms having a higher multiplier than fusion and example being ssg having a higher boost than potarra fusion back in battle of gods

[@SpiderFlowKing]

@@mrperfectcell5079 you know goku got amped before the ritual

[@SpiderFlowKing]

@@mrperfectcell5079 WTAHC THE SERIES DINGUS

[@Scuffedboros]

​@@SpiderFlowKingspell right, dingus

[@matthewadams1674]

@@SpiderFlowKing Similar statements exist in the manga where Goku doesn't get amped by a failed ritual

[@SpiderFlowKing]

Broly scales to gogeta blue pal

[@mrperfectcell5079]

Uh yeah that’s not wrong (well he scales in like AP and durability but not speed)

[@SpiderFlowKing]

@@mrperfectcell5079 so He beats Goku Omg you’re so slow

[@mrperfectcell5079]

@@SpiderFlowKing not exactly as goku can surpass his own fusion if his forms multiplier surpasses the fusion multipler which MUi might

[@SpiderFlowKing]

@@mrperfectcell5079 Mui is Ultra instinct 2 simlair as to super sayian to super sayian 2

[@SpiderFlowKing]

@@mrperfectcell5079 also mui cant be that high because He wasn’t slamming base jiren that hard Like jiren was getting smacked but not by like a few times times Like Mui is probably 2x Base jiren

[@BernardoDavinci]

Broly easily wins

[@SpiderFlowKing]

Debunk video coming out in 4 days

[@mrperfectcell5079]

A video that ain’t gonna get any attention

[@ClubberOntop]

😭😭

[@JasonTrotman-nq2ms]

⁠@@mrperfectcell5079calm down and give it a chance. (I and/or most people) gave yours one. Just saiyan.

[@mrperfectcell5079]

@@JasonTrotman-nq2ms I’m calm it’s just this guy has been constantly berating me in the comments section for like no reason and has been spamming comments in herr

[@JasonTrotman-nq2ms]

@@mrperfectcell5079 I know (I guess wrong terminology on the “calm down” thing, my bad) and I’m not defending the other either However, I do think my comment stands on giving the debunk a chance, you never know. And i do apologize for the misunderstanding

[@Somthingliminal]

Nah the dbss statements are really bad

[@javoncambridge741]

Jiren stronger

[@theone8276]

_Jiren fanboy. Broly slams._

[@SpiderFlowKing]

Spitting

[@manofiron5934]

Amazing argument my god don't know how anyone can refute it

[@theone8276]

@@manofiron5934 _I already had a formal debate with him about this & won. Hop off his meat, scrub._

[@uzookafor8721]

Jiren>>>>>broly cope

[@theone8276]

@@uzookafor8721 _Keep dreaming._