Joffrey is the BEST character in Game of Thrones, ok?

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Use the code TREE for 51% off World Anvil with the link worldanvil.com/?c=mltt Or else try it out for free!! Patreon link: www.patreon.com/mylittlethoughttree

[@movieloverfan18]

For anyone interested, there is an excellent Joffrey Fanfiction called Purple Days. It is Joffry doing Ground Hog Day. He dies at the Purple Wedding and returns to the time right after Jon Arryn died and before leaving Kingslanding to travel to the North. At first he thought it was a dream, but it keeps happening every time he dies. Massive scope to this story as he learns and grows in experience, while trying to change his destiny. Highly recommend it.

[@TheOneTrueDaedelus]

Years ago, a friend of mine was trying to explain Joffrey to me since I hadn't seen the show or read the books, and she asked me to describe every bad boss I'd ever had. Capricious, ignorant, lazy, total lack of curiosity, beyond the reach of discipline for whatever reason, vindictive, lecherous, etc, etc. Then she said "All of that, and he's allowed to kill you in public and nobody can do anything about it."

[@jmace2424]

Also nepotism

[@jessjess23brooks89]

And they just so happen to be a child you can't talk back to.

[@JaAiden]

Interestingly, of all his flaws, I don't think being lecherous is one of them. At one point, Tyrion tries to placate him by enticing him with consorts and he responds by forcing one of them to kill the other in his outrage thinking that Tyrion is manipulating him (Tyrion *is* trying to manipulate him, but perhaps not how he suspects). However, there are other flaws that definitely fit. Extremely prideful, arrogant, vicious, spiteful, dishonest, impulsive, exclusively self-centered, willfully ignorant, mercurial, completely lacking empathy, incompetent, entitled... honestly, with so many flaws it's a wonder he's not a shameless lech, glutton, and kleptomaniac as well. Might as well cover all the bases, right?

[@ratgirl34]

No wonder Joffy had such a high turnover rate XD

[@jessjess23brooks89]

@@JaAiden I always got asexual vibes from Joffrey. He's not randy at any point for any of the beautiful women or men at court. He might get some kind of sexual gratification from violence though. We never really got to know him all too well before he died. Not that I'm complaining on that count 😆

[@DoggyHateFire]

I think the dumbest thing I've heard about the character was someone in a comments section acting somewhat surprised that Jack Gleeson is actually a really nice person. How any adult could actually think the two have to be similar is so beyond me.

[@chrismorel8613]

Jimmy o Yang has a bit in one of his shows about just how many people come up to him thinking his English is at the same level as jin Yang's in silicon valley. It It's called acting people it's in the job title

[@tayetrotman]

Yeah, it’s weird how easily grown adults can forget that actors are not their characters. I didn’t like the Star Wars sequels and I really hated most of the characters but unlike some people I wasn’t gonna go harass their actors over it. I thought the Skyler hatred in Breaking Bad was stupid and mostly created by a mixture of sexism and identifying too strongly with Walt, but even if I had hated her character I wouldn’t have sent Anna Gunn death threats. A more innocent example of this is Helene Bonham-Carter, the actor behind Bellatrix in the Harry Potter films actually scaring children when she dressed up as a witch on Halloween. But hey, not only is this actually funny, but they’re kids.

[@ericpercival102]

@@tayetrotman Well I would agree with you and disagree with you, I don't feel the need to slap a label on anyone who has a different opinion though. I feel people turned on Skyler (the character) because at a point in the show people related to Walt, after all he was "doing it for his family" no matter how wrong. Up until a certain point in the show it seemed to be all about him securing a life for his family. yes he had killed and had remorse over it, yet those people were trying to kill him. Skyler then slept with her boss over her suspicion. wasn't until later we find out Walt's motivation morphed into being all about himself. Now if it was always about himself or it was, in the beginning all about his family you would need to ask Brian Cranston how he saw it, since there is no real Walter White trying to psycho analyze a fictitious person is pointless, but I wouldn't want to ask him how he saw it, that's the fun of watching or reading something, how do you see it. This is due to excellent writing and acting. same with GOT and band of brothers. A great show is one people find believable (as much as GoT can be believable and lets not mention season 7&8).. that said no one should ever hate an actor for evoking an emotional response good or bad, that should be applauded. so for that I agree with you %10000, no actor should ever be threatened for portraying a role. But as I said I totally disagree with you calling people a sexist or racist or some "ism" because they disagree with how you saw a character on a TV show. I talked to some that hated Hank because he was a pompous ass, missing the fact it was a facade causing his panic attacks. Shows like breaking bad were setup to be a roller coaster ride, may hate some characters at one point then sympathize the next. So perhaps you cheered her affair, and some saw that as a betrayal, you can certainly debate both sides. doesn't mean someone is a sexist though

[@tayetrotman]

@@ericpercival102 The fact they dislike Skyler isn’t what makes me call them sexist, I’m calling them sexist because Anna Gunn says she received sexist comments as well as death threats as part of the harassment. Considering that we know this happened, I am inclined to believe her on the details.

[@salazar556]

Yeah, it's not surprising. Funny, but not surprising. 😂 If Jack was like Joffrey, I'd be very concerned.

[@lutilda]

I didn't know he had returned to acting! That's so great to hear! He's so talented!

[@jmace2424]

Jack Gleeson did such a great job.

[@buriedstpatrick2294]

It's unfortunate that intense feelings on a performance (the actor's job, really) affects them. It's by no means a new thing. It famously happened with the German film M from 1931 where the actor, playing a child murderer, was driven out of the industry and couldn't find work after that. With the advent of the internet it really has become easier than ever to harass these people. Especially sad since, like you, I feel Joffrey was by far the strongest characterization in the show. Not that every character needed to be as overt, but it added a lot of dimension to the universe to put all the political manipulation on a tight rope where random temper tantrums could completely throw off everyone's plans. And he did such a great job of portraying exactly that.

[@nostalgicbliss5547]

well said

[@vanyadolly]

Same with the poor kid who played Anakin. It's bad enough when it happens with adults, but kids literally do nothing to deserve this. Many of them are already dealing with less than ideal parents or abuse in the industry.

[@jmarch3467]

Did you maybe mix up M with another film? I thought this sounded really interesting, but when I went to look up more, the actor, Peter Lorre, seems to have had a very prolific (if typecast) career, and I even looked at the 1951 version of M and that's not it either.

[@luzcalderon7808]

Jack did an outstanding job potraying Joffrey, probably one of the best performances in the whole show. He genuenly made you hate him so bad, that's something only the best of the best can do, and when he finally died everybody rejoiced (it was sad to say goodbye to Jack tho), only to wish he was alive when Ramsay came so he culd kill him (it's kinda ironic how the two biggest psychos were played by absolue sweethearts). So sad some people could not separate the character form the actor and genuenly belived he was a horrible person outside the show, the poor guy even got death threats. I'm glad he found something else he liked and pursued it. What a character and what an actor. Game of Thrones would not have been the same without them.

[@Doumeki-ng4ju]

english is not my first language so bear with me. but i would also argue that there something to be sad about joffrey leaning on a more feminine side (him not being physically strong, skinny, him caring about his clothes, the way he reacts to being slapped, etc.). these features can definitely add to some people disliking him

[@BrunaDiGiacomoLevasier]

yes, its the justin bieber effect all over again

[@alpakafantasy5134]

The scene where the tired king refuses to go to bed, the acting Gleeson is giving is one of my favourite moments in the complete series and of course I always hated the character Joffrey. But this line "I'm not tired" how it's delivered made me love him for just a fleeting moment. It's so funny and perfect.

[@elle3839]

Joffery was my favourite character too! Jack Gleason was SUCH a scene stealer I thought, which was not an easy task considering his company. Any scene hes in youre just like errrrr this fuckin guyyyy lmao. One of my favourite lines of his which I think is under rated is Hurry up! This pie is dry Gets me every time lol

[@Mj_Jetson]

The true villain of Ice and Fire isn't Joffrey, Cersei, Ramsay, etc. The true villain is the system that empowers the worst people and incentivized the worst behaviors.

[@josephbulkin9222]

I thought the villain was the devil of nihilism.

[@naruto199797]

It's sad that Jack had to go through all that he did. He's a talented actor he played his role very well

[@salazar556]

Maybe I'm weird for this, but I genuinely enjoy characters like Joffrey. Why? They keep the story interesting and make for some of the most fantastic villains to exist.

[@itsmainelyyou5541]

I will never understand not being able to differentiate a character from an actor. It's weird to hate a person for doing a job. It's a craft. For your enjoyment. Poor Jack, it must've been difficult. I always wished to see how deep Joffrey's need to for acceptance from Tyrion went. Tyrion was the only one attempting to smack some sense into the little tyrant and for as much as Joffrey hated it, he kept turning his face to meet the blow, even while plotting his demise. I wonder.

[@waynereid9471]

People hate the character not the actor

[@itsmainelyyou5541]

@@waynereid9471 People gave him so many death threats that he was forced to retire from acting for years.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

So shitty that the actor got so much hate for *being a good actor*

[@mehlover]

It's saddening to find out Jack Gleeson took a break from acting due to all the harassment by playing Joffrey. Why are fans always like this? I'm glad to know that he's gonna go back into acting because he's great at it!

[@alpakafantasy5134]

The actor who played Walder Frey also got very often harassed and insulted in public, when the series was fresh. There are simlpy many idiots out there 😂

[@Ccamero123]

My rage came from his treatment of Theon. No one deserved that.

[@NotThePoint-r7n]

I totally disagree, I don't think Jof was "many different things to many different people" not in a more meaningful way than any other character anyway, less in fact. Everyone, from Tywinn, Olenna, Sansa, Tyrion and anyone who met him (aside from maybe his mother) thought of him exactly the same "petulant brat". Some he had power over so they feared him, but nobody had a substantially different opinion him. As a point of comparison let's take Ramsay, Theon feared him because he had power over him, but he wasn't precieved differently for it, he was thought to be a tyrant and evil by everyone regardless (with the extra fear on top if he was in charge of you). Jof also didn't really have any character development, only thing that changed was the amount of power he had. He was sadistic, he stayed sadistic, he was foolish, he stayed that way, he was bratty and so on and so on. I don't think it's wrong to enjoy the character bit objectively he isn't a "good character" he was more of a tool for the plot than a person in his own right, he comes across as one of the most black and white characters in the entire show, a bundle of pure evil, so while he certainly made for some interesting plot twists he himself was not a well rounded character.

[@mattcuti2961]

Jack Gleeson fucking NAILED IT in the tv show adaptation. Some of the best acting, ever. Dude knew the job, and did the job

[@NoCryinRyan]

Joffrey is a truly awful character, but Gleeson’s portrayal of him was a gem (I’m glad to hear he’s giving acting another go; it’s not his fault people can’t distinguish fantasy from reality).

[@sharonpopolow6874]

For reeeaaal! It takes a truly talented actor to make you absolutely hate their character they're portraying. Maybe more so than a character you love.

[@mercyjokes2d696]

He's absolutely a scene steeler in the latest Netflix film with Liam Neeson.

[@ParkS9321]

Like Stanley Tucci in the lovely bones! He did such an amazing job being such a creep that I still get uncomfortable seeing him 😅

[@themanformerlycalled]

He was a very strong actor.

[@fanpiresam482]

It always floors me that grown ass adults watch a show and can't distinguish between fantasy and reality.

[@higginswalsan]

It’s a widespread enough issue that I think it’s something deep in our brains

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@higginswalsan Before the age of 5 we can't tell the difference between what is fantasy and what is reality. All kinds of stuff during that developmental period can throw off people's ability to separate the two. Stuff like being in a religion/cult

[@mischr13]

@@Michael-bn1oi I grew up in a cult and ended up being hyper vigilant about fact checking even things I think are "common knowledge" or things I've known for years. basically the opposite intended effect of raising your kids in a cult. But most the people I knew in the cult are still in it.

[@valenciasaintilus9573]

@@Michael-bn1oithat sounds like your personal musings not anything that is based on scientific fact.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

@@valenciasaintilus9573 You could have taken 10 seconds to google my statement instead of posting *your own personal musing* If you had you would see numerous articles and published studies. Do you have an accredited source that you prefer? Or will any published pier-reviewed study work? Happy to educate you.

[@_somerandomguyontheinternet_]

Probably my favorite scene with Joffrey is the scene where he calls on Tywin with regards to the small council and about Daenerys. He’s bratty, complaining about climbing the stairs, but when you think about it, this is one of the few instances where he tries to be a good king, and Tywin immediately shuts him down. He asks about Daenerys’s dragons and has reasonable concerns about their danger that Tywin really shouldn’t have been so quick to dismiss. Tywin says that he has advisors “to counsel the king on matters on which he knows nothing.” Joffrey then expresses frustration that he hasn’t *been* counseled, which Tywin dismisses. It’s a scene that makes me realize that he was never really given a chance. Obviously, he’s a monster, but he’s a spoiled child who was a product of Cersei nurturing his worst tendencies and refusing to discipline him. She teaches him that everyone else is an enemy and is a ridiculously bad role model by pulling shit like having Sansa’s wolf killed and trying to have Arya maimed. He’s neglected by both Robert and Jaime, and so he seeks approval from whoever he can (thus leading to the downfall of Ned). Whenever he *does* try to improve, to become a good king, he’s shut down. The story of Joffrey is, when you think about it, a very tragic one.

[@mr.l8527]

An interesting thing about Game of Thrones is that there's a constant theme of bitterness with many of the characters. Think of it, almost all of the main characters have a sad backstory and bitterness associated with them - including Joffrey and Ramsey. They're all representations of different outcomes of that. It wasn't shown much in the show but in the books, Joffrey's backstory is better shown. As a small boy, Joffrey had sociopathic tendencies (like Ramsey) but all he ever wanted was to have the approval of his "father", Robert. He never got it. Robert didn't like the boy. Robert wasn't just a bad king but a bad father. Joffrey is the product of his parenting and his environment. Robert hardly gave him attention and when he did, it was negative. Cersei doted on him and basically let him do whatever he wanted. So it's no surprise that when he was given that kind of power, he became what he did. He was narcissistic, sociopathic, bitter, angry and very immature. He was what he was made into. And as a child, he never had a chance to be anything else. In a way, that makes him kind of tragic as well. Almost every character is tragic in some way. Joffrey's tragedy is that of a "what if". What if Robert had shown him kindness and affection? What if Robert mentored him (as a father should) in how to be a man and proper king, on how to focus those dark impulses into noble and productive pursuits? What if Cersei hadn't doted on him so? And so on. His fate was sealed the day he was given the crown. I love the characters in this story. Each one of them is tragic in their own way, and even if they achieve victory it's bittersweet for them. There are no storybook happy endings here.

[@kevinscottbailey8335]

While I did enjoy reading this, couldn't all of the sad backstory for Joffrey also be applied to Tommen and Myrcella? And neither of them became cruel and vindictive assholes. Tommen in particular became a decent King and a pretty good person. I think the only thing I'm really disagreeing with is the amount to which what Joffrey became can be blamed on Robert and Cersei

[@mr.l8527]

@@Bowl-O-Noodlez Robert was a great warrior and general. He was not a good king. This fact is made painfully obvious throughout the books and even shown in the show. It was his council and "Hand", Jon Arryn that kept the kingdom running smoothly. Robert spent his time (and the kingdom's coffers) partying, eating and hunting for sport. It was Lannister gold (via loans) that kept the kingdom from going bankrupt. In fact, there's even a scene where after Ned Stark becomes Hand, he receives the reports on the kingdom's funds and is shocked to learn that it's basically broke. That's not to say Robert was a bumbling fool or a complete idiot. He wasn't. He was just an incompetent king. He disliked politics and the tedium of daily affairs that came with running the kingdom, thus he left it to his "hand" and small council to run things. He also knew that Cersei was conniving - this is true. Everybody who interacted with her knew how she was. Whether Robert suspected or knew of Joffrey's true parentage isn't stated in the books or shown in the show, however. He treated them both poorly. That said, a character can be tragic without being sympathetic. Joffrey and Ramsey are great examples of this. They're horrible people. But when you know their backstories, it makes more sense. They aren't completely one dimensional.

[@mr.l8527]

@@Bowl-O-Noodlez As I said, Robert treated Cersei and Joffrey poorly. You don't really see this in the show (I assume for time's sake) but it is seen in the books. Robert was mostly aloof to Joffrey and when he did interact with him, it was negatively. Whether he loved Joffrey or not isn't stated but he disliked handling Joffrey every since he was a baby. Robert had bastards, all of who reacted positively when he held them as babies. Joffrey however, always cried (perhaps an indicator that he wasn't his true father?). As Joffrey grew, Robert hardly bothered with him. When he did, it was to chide, scold or berate him. Robert always expressed contempt or disappointment around him and to him. It probably didn't help that he also never showed love or compassion to Cersei - whim he never loved. It was a political marriage. Throughout this, Joffrey tried to emulate Robert and constantly sought his approval and praise, neither of which he received and in fact, received the exact opposite. Combined with his already innate tendencies, his mother's similar personality traits, doting on him, his immaturity and being given absolute authority and we can see why he is the way he is. He's a sociopathic child who was never disciplined or directed. The man whom he looked up to, scorned him and his mother (who was similar to himself), treated him as if he did no wrong. And then he was given absolute power. Knowing all of this, it's easier to understand why he is the way he is and it becomes no surprise that he becomes a horrifying tyrant.

[@kevinscottbailey8335]

@@mr.l8527 in addition to everything you wrote here, there is just zero evidence that Robert had any idea about the incest. He just knew he had blonde haired wife and blonde haired children. So the fact that he didn't kill Joffrey doesn't make him somehow a good father.

[@mr.l8527]

@@kevinscottbailey8335 I think you responded to the wrong person. 😆

[@PistachioDean]

I feel like no one really touches on the fact he's only 13 when all this happens, and his upbringing. He gets a lot of hate, granted it's earned, but there should be so much more blame on Cersei and Robert for his upbringing. He's only 13 when Ned is beheaded, and I think it's so easy to blame Joffrey, but there should be SO much more blame on the adults around him. Like the fact an actual 13 year old child could end up beheading one of the most powerful lords in Westeros is actually insane. I think that's one aspect of ASOIAF that Martin wants us to reflect on, because most of the children in the story are messed up, and we have to think about why they are. Edit for the math: Joffrey DOB: 286, Ned Stark DOD: 299

[@atlas956]

i agree. there‘s so many situations where Joffrey does something obviously problematic and terrible - and while everybody learns about it, no one intervenes. Not Cersei, not Robert, definitely not Tywin and not even Jaime (who could and should have been at the very least a role model, since he knew wasn‘t going to find one in Robert). and then Margaery happens and it only gets worse. so much of Joffrey‘s violence spiral could have been prevented, if not for all the people around him who refuse to engage with him as a person. I‘d argue that Joffrey never would‘ve been a great king, but with actual guidance, role models, competent advisors and some effort from every adult involved… he could have been a decently stable one, and better than Robert at least. they literally already had Sansa, the most compassionate person in Westeros, and one of the best possible political matches, lined up. they all knew the beheading was coming at some point, they all knew it was a terrible idea, and it only would have taken some cooperation to get Joffrey to see sense and make it not happen. his entire thing was eventually just a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[@HOTD108_]

There's good reason most people don't bring that up; Joffrey is only 13 in the books. The show Joffrey is older, like most of the younger characters who got explicitly aged up for the show.

[@dwc1964]

I was sad that Jack Gleeson retired from acting after GoT on account of all the hate he got for doing such a good job, but I understood. Also, he had a whole nother career he wanted to get into. It's good to hear that he's gotten back into acting again.

[@luzcalderon7808]

He's acting again? That's amazing, he's such a gem

[@staytuned2L337]

He didn't deserve any of that.

[@VanGtfogh]

The hatred is no mystery. Joffrey is a spoiled brat who is incredibly weak in all areas of his life, and he somehow gets nearly everything that he wants up until he dies. Ramsay’s cruelty is paired with him being cunning and clever so even though he’s incredibly evil and one note, you get a sense that he’s built a skill set that allows him to be successful in the ways that he aims to be. Joffrey brings nothing to the table but somehow owns the table, the building that houses the table, and everyone sitting at the table. It’s infuriating

[@tell-me-a-story-]

In my opinion a child is inherently more sympathetic than an adult, but for some reason you people seem to feel the opposite. Like being a “Spoiled brat” makes you worse than an adult narcissist who knows better.

[@sanseary]

jack gleeson is a total sweetheart! i talked to him for a bit at comic con vienna and was really excited when he told me that he's working on new projects after the joffrey hate died down!

[@Leo_ofRedKeep]

People despised Joffrey because he was a wimp. They did not despise Tywin or Ramsay because they were capable. The hate for something people fear is different from the hate for something people dislike.

[@HDreamer]

For Tywin it's mainly "rule of cool" and people looking up to what they perceive to be "strong leaders". Never mind that Tywin was very much ruled by his own insecurities, a lot of people actually want to be like him. Ramsay, I think it's more that as the video said we never see him do all that much to people we care about, except Theon and Sansa, who both -if not hated - are pretty disliked at that point in the story.

[@tell-me-a-story-]

Do you have to be better a ruining peoples lives for the audience to like you? Huh.

[@grasstastesbad]

@@tell-me-a-story- no, but capability is normally a good quality so i think it mitigates dislike (in a fictional story at least). i think joffrey was probably more disliked because he’s a kind of person you can more easily encounter in real life; a bratty, wimpy bully

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

My favorite detail about Joffrey comes from his death scene in A Storm of Swords, how his final act as he's dying horribly from poison is to desperately reach out towards Tyrion, seemingly begging him for help. Though their relationship was as bitter in the books as it was in the show, to me that implies that deep down, under all the ego, Joffrey really did love his uncle, that in his last desperate moments, his last hope was that maybe Tyrion specifically was smart enough to save him somehow. It adds such a layer of depth to the character, it so fundamentally reframes so many of his interactions, that it completely changed my view of Joffrey across all 3 books he's in. It does make me sad that with show Joffrey they didn't really go with this angle.

[@mischr13]

this was one of the biggest problems in the show for me. they made him a cartoon villain for no reason other than having a "big tv moment" when he died. they sucked all the nuance out of a bunch of the characters

[@monicad99]

you read a lot into someone begging for help in their final moments of life. survival would push anyone to ask help from whomever is around no matter what they otherwise felt.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

@@monicad99 Sure, but he's also completely surrounded by people including the Guard, Pycelle, Cersei, the Tyrells, and so on, and yet it's Tyrion specifically (who's still at a table nearby) whom he reaches for. Ergo in his moment of desperation, Tyrion was the one whom he thought was most likely to somehow be able to save him

[@laurenanderson61]

Or he was accusing him.

[@nabilamiah3814]

I thought he was gesturing toward the wine glass because he knew he was poisoned

[@jmace2424]

Joffrey was pretty much doomed from the start. He was born without a sense of empathy and the only role models he had made a name for themselves through violence.

[@brettwentworth8351]

Pretty much everybody back then made a name for themselves through violence but true. I’d say he was more influenced by role models who let him do as he pleased and never faced any consequences.

[@user-zo4ei1ip2i]

Same about Ramsey.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

We don't know thay he was born without empathy. Plenty of people with empathy just ignore it lol

[@mischr13]

@@Michael-bn1oi man, isn't that the truth. it's kinda exhausting that everyone assumes if a person is awful that they must have some personality disorder. like, do people think there was a sudden spike of sociopaths in Germany in the 30s and 40s? OR are many many people capable of atrocities and can use all sorts of fvcked up logic to "justify" it in their own heads? I think people try to find some sense of comfort by believing it's the former when it's not.

[@tell-me-a-story-]

It seems like he should be more sympathetic than other villains since he’s less responsible for what he does.

[@rishaa682]

I have experienced the more villianous type of attrocities and I think that one of the biggest problems with our world is that people live (and our societies are structured) as if these types of people don’t exist. Yes people understand they exist intellectually to a certain extent. But look at the people in charge of our planet, the owners of massive amounts of wealth, owners of the giant corporations that are destroying the planet, corrupt politicians, the ones with the most power are often the most corrupt. Why is our world structured this way, why arent we taking into account how much damage those with the most desire for power can do? talk to most people who have grown up with the kind of parents i have ( those with, narcissism and psychopathic traits), as i have talked to many, and they’ll tell you that you don’t really “get it” unless you’ve experienced it. Which makes me sad, i would never wish the horrors i experienced on anyone else but I wish our world would take these people and this problem more seriously. Because it is the root of the problem with our planet thanks for listening

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I think that's a great point and sadly true. Most just have a rational concept but imagine it's not a thing people really live, it happens but only to some half-imagined minority that don't actually exist and don't need to be considered 😔 all the same, people don't need to necessarily "get it" in order to empathise or, at the least, be trying to empathise and trying to understand. If they tried that much, they would listen at least. I just think this was a really good comment, and I have no answer, and it's sad. Also I remember you from the early breakfast club days, and I appreciate you're still here

[@rishaa682]

​ Aw, that’s nice that you remembered me. Im still chugging along getting by somehow. Its hard because once you understand these people in your own life, you can see it on a global level. I really think so much damage could be prevented if people could maybe place importance on this somehow. These “villanous” types are not the most common type out there but just 1 of them can do a lot of damage. And they tend to be attracted to power (exactly where they shouldnt be). I see this as a major cause of the state of climate change today (these types causing it via corporate greed). Anyways, thanks again, good video.

[@samlerf]

​​@@mylittlethoughttreeWhat about the show only scene where Joffrey shows vulnerability and sadness in his conversation with Cercei, only for her to immediately helicopter parent him and tell him that truth is whatever the powerful make it? In this scene he's shown to be a kid in need of soft but stern intervention and instead his worst traits are feed by his mother in a way that's implied to be reacuring. Isn't that a sympathetic scene?

[@keirangrant1607]

Jack did such a great job as Joffrey that I legit hated him, but only on screen. I thought Jack deserved a ton of credit for being able to relay such a D-bag to the audience. He should have been in consideration for an award. The character was well acted. I would have been scared to have him as a ruler. Joffrey was tricked into killing Ned. He was still only a child. 15 is not an adult.

[@IIISWILIII]

Jack hit a walk-off homerun on his first time at bat then promptly retired 😎

[@Katerine459]

I'm kind of surprised to hear that people didn't hate Ramsey. I certainly did. He was the new Joffrey (I think I actually thought of him that way when I got introduced to him in the books). For me, Ramsey was more hateable... but less scary. Simply because, well, he wasn't the king. And also (and this ties in a bit about what you were saying about identifying with his victims)... we mostly read of him through Sansa's POV. And she's a) a child, b) completely under his power, and c) quietly surviving against him in whatever way she can. With Ramsey, we mostly read about him through Theon's POV, and he's a) an adult, and b) while he's completely under his power, he's psychologically broken to the point where he doesn't have an identity anymore. And while I wouldn't say Theon deserved _that_ treatment, it was actually a bit gratifying to see him be humbled.

[@user-zo4ei1ip2i]

That's surprised me too. However, for me Ramsey was scarier and I felt so bad for Theon. He just wanted to return to his roots, but...

[@lolno4384]

I think maybe ppl not "hating" Ramsey is the wrong way to word it; like I really liked Ramsey but that was because it was so fun to hate him, same reason I liked Joffrey and Tywin. I would think thats true for most of his fans and could be why finding out ppl "didn't hate" him was so surprising- cause it's kind of incorrect, most of us totally did hate him, its just also why we liked him lol

[@TheSorrel]

I think the worst about Joffrey is how the system around him is enabling him. He's the ultimate antithesis to the system the seven Kingdoms try to uphold.

[@wholockedholmes5600]

He’s hated because he’s committed the biggest sim any fiction character (especially a child or teen character) can commit: he’s annoying.

[@JoeNaeem]

New my little thought tree video on Joffrey Baratheon!!! Huzzah!

[@Vonn_Loren]

Maybe it's my background as a fan of professional wrestling, but I find that I can go into the story enough to hate Joffrey but I can also take a step back and enjoy him as an effective character. I think you make a really good point about how the comedy of Joffrey's incompetence and short-sightedness needs a balance and the actor 'threaded the needle' very well. (I also agree with your point that the show got extra grim after the Purple Wedding and later attempts at comedy... certainly existed! yup)

[@colechapman6976]

Let's be real though, if Joffrey was king, he would have never let a radical religious cult to ensnare the minds of his subjects. He wouldn't want to have his subjects be under the control and manipulation of some High Sparrow, and would have immediately arrested and killed him. I think as dumb as he is, as childish as he can be, as callous as he is towards the common citizen of his kingdom, he would not want to see someone gain more power and influence other than him. He wouldn't tolerate that. As the Sparrow wasn't family like Tywin or Tryion, those people being the only individuals within his inner circle who had the ability to speak up against him, he would not let the Sparrow grow in power.

[@EmoBearRights]

I do not understand people who send hate to a person playing a loathsome character. Its like you get they're doing a job and its not them right? One guy on a really toxic fan board was vile about an actor playing another bad guy just based on his hate for the character - that guy was scary.

[@tell-me-a-story-]

You should be thankful because they’re making you feel how your supposed to!

[@lindenshepherd6085]

I read the books, so I always thought it was fitting (but not deserving) for someone who assaulted and harassed women to be neutered. I can’t remember if it appears in the show, but on Theon’s journey back home he coerces the captain’s daughter into sex, lies to her and says she’ll be his wife, then gleefully leaves her pregnant and abandoned to face the abuse and wrath of her father (the captain). No one deserves the kind of torture he survived, but after so many similar transgressions from Theon I felt that he did need some kind of karmic punishment for his misdeeds.

[@hgman3920]

The one fictional character I liken most to Joffrey in GoT is Delores Umbridge in Harry Potter. Smug - check. No sympathetic backstory or story moments - check. Reminds the audience of bullies/a$$holes in their own life - check.

[@atlas956]

except that Joffrey, on a deeper level, is a much more complex character. though the audience hates both in the exact same way, I suppose…

[@GaryMcSnail]

I think the other part of Ned Stark's death that was so painful for the audience was that our precieved hero in this world is not getting saved last minute. The good guy is not going to prevail by simply being the good guy. I remember thinking something had to happen to save Ned because that's what stories do. The hero has to continue the story, so obviously Ned has to live, right? But he didn't. Ned was beheaded on Joffrey's orders. And I think that combined hurt and shock made everyone hate Joffrey even more

[@ami8181]

I remember being so mad at Ned (while reading the books) because he was simply too proud and thus risked the lives of his children, whole family and even the whole North at the end of the day. He could've revealed in such better and smarter ways, while surviving and ensuring the safety of his children. I totally understand that it's just his personality, the burden of his title etc. but it was still more infuriating than Jeffrey's decision.

[@ami8181]

I kind of pitied him because he was a child king with a parent that didn't like him and a mother, whose only goal was to have a child king. Yes, he is very cruel and he showed that behaviour at an early age but his parents (or parental father figure in that case) messed up big time. Robert loved visiting a brothel a thousand times more than parenting Joffrey or his other children. He's basically a child king who desperately wants to be loved, while constantly making a fool out of himself and being manipulated. During the short chapters we got about his earlier childhood, violence was a big factor while not really getting any moral guidance by others.

[@chrisdelisle3954]

He's an interesting character on a television show. He's an exhausting character in real life.

[@robertmatthews9650]

Joffrey was fun to despise. Ramsey wasn’t.

[@Shenanakins]

why would you say something so controversial yet so brave? ive been saying this for years. you can pinpoint the moment the show started going down hill to when joffrey died and they decided ramsay would be his poor replacement to be the one who tortures sansa.

[@gracehaven5459]

Jack Gleeson did so well in this role. I truly feel he channeled the heinous but somewhat comedic undertones of the character perfectly. He's such a good sport about his character being so hated too 😅😅 it was so unfair that some people were cruel to him about the role. I've seen so many clips of him recreating his death scene with fans in the past, lol

[@philsoro491]

Lol my sisters met him in the city centre. Said he was a nice guy 😂 Joffrey was a better villain than Ramsey I feel

[@chelscara]

Characters that are designed for us to hate them are so important. One it gets out a lot of that basic feeling anyway, let’s you direct some negativity towards a fictional character and not hurt anyone irl (except the people that go after actors but that’s uh, that’s a whole different thing) and Two it gives you the chance to understand where hate and “evil” comes from and look at it head on in all its plain humanness while again, staying in the safe fictional world. I love hating Joffrey and I love investigating his background and wondering “could he have been a Tommen in different circumstances?”

[@tell-me-a-story-]

Why make it a kid though?

[@brittany1049]

Pretty sure he’s just a perfect example of a “love to hate” character. Regardless, the actor deserves nothing but praise for his stellar performance!

[@michaelbuick6995]

Tywin is ruthless strategic mastermind. Ramsay is sadistic, but he usually has some sort of overall goal to it, like trying to psychologically break Theon. Joffery on the other hand is incredibly petty. He's weak, impulsive, and a coward. He hurts and humiliates people on a whim for no reason than his own amusement. He is proactive and has a hair trigger. Tywin and Ramsay are men you would almost want on your side. Neither are afraid of getting their hands dirty. They get the job done. Joffery is just a vindictive little prick for no reason other than its own sake.

[@Milwaukhehe]

To say that about Tywin shows you don’t understand the character at all. Tywin set it up where he would never have to get his hands dirty so he could claim innocence after the fact. On top of that Tywin is a petty cowardly wimp, he threw a life long tantrum because he thought his dad was soft, he used underhanded tactics to fight his battles and when he actually tried to fight like a man he lost.

[@atlas956]

@@Milwaukhehei think their argument is that Tywin - even if he prefers to stay out of action and plan for things way in advance - will absolutely go to war and get things done that need to be done. He does some objectively questionable things, but there‘s a method, and if you‘re „on his side“, you‘d have genuine reason to assume he wouldn‘t hurt you. He probably wouldn‘t murder someone right then and there in front of a crowd - but you better believe that if Tywin Lannister wants you dead, you‘ll die. He stays out of action not because he couldn’t win in a fight, but because he thinks there are better ways. That may or may not be true in reality, but he‘s at least good at making people think that he‘s not a coward. Joffrey on the other hands delegates things because he couldn‘t get them done on his own if he tried. He stays out of „getting his hands dirty“ for vastly different reasons, he’s completely ineffective even in the most powerful position in Westeros, and that makes people not respect him a bit. Joffrey is very obviously a coward and too dumb to hide it properly.

[@jmace2424]

It’s almost like the state’s monopoly on violence shouldn’t be given to a child. Who knew? 😄

[@dwc1964]

Tywin of course had the advantage of being played by Charles Dance, who classes up any joint he walks into

[@s.h.7613]

The actor did a spectacular job! I wished Joffrey was alive when the High Sparrow took over. He would’ve been got him together

[@PinkGrapefruit22]

Really insightful! I especially loved the part where you touched on how important Joffrey is to so many of the characters, while having a slightly different meaning and dynamic to each of them. Jack Gleeson did an incredible job playing him in the show.

[@ChildOfTheFlower]

Didn't he quit acting because he was more interested in academia rather than people hated him as a person because of the separation of fantasy and reality?

[@ruubux]

When I first watched GOT, Joffrey was instantly my favourite character. I loved to hate him! Every scene he was in was always so entertaining

[@tonichan89]

I hate Jofffrey the "person", but not the character. Those are pretty damn different things. Love the actor, he was brilliant! It was so frustrating that stupid people gave him hate, and it made me so sad that he quit acting...though he's seemingly started doing some jobs again. I hope he's enjoying them. He seems like a really fun, pleasant guy.

[@JohnDoe-vi1im]

I love this video. Not many people would point out, that even somebody like Joffrey didn't become (and isn't) like this for no reason. Hurt people hurt people and keep getting hurt themselves as a reaction. A cycle, that leads to ever greater pain and in extreme cases, violence and sadism. Another great point: Ramsay gets much less hate, despite being much more sadistic than Joffrey.

[@EmoBearRights]

How great Jack is becomes more obvious when hes interviewed like many people who play villians he seems a really sweet guy irl.

[@EmoBearRights]

TV Tropes has a name for villians you respect Magnificent Bastards.

[@Leo_ofRedKeep]

Tywin and Cersei are not villains to anyone who thinks about it for a moment. It is made pretty clear why Joffrey is the way he is when Robert says he "should have spent more time with him, taught him to be a man". Joffrey's political impulses are often coming from a need to be seen as what he was never taught to be but knows is expected of him: "but they are the soft hearts of women". Neglected by his "father", he was left to be raised by the women, by his mother who kept him away from all dangers, as mothers do, and as she still does before the Blackwater battle. So he never learned to fight or to gain respect from others. He likes shooting at defenceless things because it makes him feel godlike and in control. He despises women because he knows he hasn't proven himself a man. He shouts "I am the king" because he feels he isn't.

[@Milwaukhehe]

Anyone who claims Tywin or Cersei isn’t a villain is a delusional idiot

[@rickiesix1888]

As both a plot device and a character, Joffrey is magnificent. I'd wager he is far more hateable than Ramsay. As psychopaths go, Ramsay at least wasn't a cowardly snivelling idiot. Jack Gleason nailed the role too.

[@saraa.4295]

Joffrey had a lot of attributes worthy of hate (cruelty, stupidity, temper) but none to admire or pity. Tywin was smart, Ramsey was smart in his way, and not a coward, and we know his childhood was horrid, Cercei is pitiable for the way she was treated by Robert... Joffrey was pampered, cowardly, stupid and cruel. But there is no excuse for threatening an actor, especially if that actor is still a minor

[@nailtoolofamusement]

No, absolutely not, but Jack Gleeson is an extremely talented actor. Such a shame the role ended up pushing him away from acting altogether.

[@ziggydoesstardust7144]

For me its cause joffrey is whiney and incompetent. While Tywin and Ramsay are just ruthless as hell.

[@randomgirl2282]

I love Joffrey, book and show. He’s so complex and heartbreakingly tragic but he doesn’t come off as such on the surface but with his upbringing, it’s really no wonder why he came off the way he did.

[@wildwesley9328]

I’ve felt visceral hatred for characters in the past, but Joffrey wasn’t one of them. He’s a character that you love to hate, but his death was horrible and not as satisfying as I thought it would be. It made me really look at myself and wonder why I was hoping for the death of this child. A horrible child that was raised to be a monster but a child nonetheless. The show makes him a little more reprehensible so there’s a bit more satisfying but I still liked watching him.

[@kjellduteweert9262]

Hate the character, and admire the actor. I think is absolutely stupid if people hate an actor for a role they play, it is a role they aren't like that in real life.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I'd argue theon is best character on the show(even if he's not personally my favorite).

[@FalloutOfTheWindow]

I have never been this fast before

[@sardonically-inclined7645]

Same here

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Last time I was this early they stuck me in a neonatal incubator...

[@LordDiabetusIII]

Would love to see you do one on Griffith if you ever get around to reading Berserk. I think your ability to not feel hateful towards the sort of fictional characters everyone hates (like with Joff here) might make you the perfect person to analyze him objectively, which people always kinda struggle with. Not gonna say any more on that topic here or else I will spoil the plot lol

[@jodieg6318]

I have to fully admit, I don't like Game of Thrones. But you can't get away from it when discussing modern fantasy. I know the basics but I just can't get into it for many reasons. But as I understand characters, as it is with heroes, it all comes down to relatability. Most of us are fortunate enough to *not* have come into contact a violent psychopath like Ramsey, but nearly all of us have dealt with an annoying brat like Joffery. When I watched Penny Dreadful, I did genuinely hate the character of Dorian Grey for good and bad reasons but that was the brilliance of the writing and the acting as Dorian was a character that made as a "love to hate" character. From the clips I've seen I think Jeffory was written that way as well, but I think the difference lies in the maturity of the characters; Jeffory will forever be an annoying child while Dorian Grey as that incubus vibe that does genuinely make my skin crawl because his cruelties are subtle, personal, and, if I'm being honest, there is a little part of me that would love to be that care-free hedonist too. And isn't that just the worst? when you have a admit that you have some sympathy for the devil. Forgive the ramble.

[@tell-me-a-story-]

Wait.. So being a child makes him LESS sympathetic in some people’s eyes? Man that’s weird.

[@jiriklimecky5752]

watching that Sansa was into him when he first came to Winterfell is really painful

[@CaptainPikeachu]

Jack Gleeson is an incredibly gifted actor who gave one of the best performances of this show. I mean, this show was stacked when it came to the cast so the fact that he was memorable even to this day is really a testament to both the writing of the character and to Jack’s brilliant performance! 👏🏼👍🏼

[@TheStoneTargaryen]

I was UPSET when he died when I was reading the book. A lot of it came from Cersei’s scream and grief, but he was such a good character on the page; I do agree I suppose it wasss time for him to go

[@JC-gn7lq]

If Theon deserved anything for turning on people he had pledged to support, it was death, not torture. The only punishment that was kinda sorta related (if we squint) to his past offenses was castration, but that's it, and I much prefer the ambiguity around it in the book vs. the blatant fan service in the show.

[@mack_taylor]

There may have been a time I hated Joffrey, but now I experience nothing but sheer joy just about everytime he is on the screen lol such a "good" character.

[@jmace2424]

Pretty sure the title Best Character in the Show is Stannis’ by rights.

[@samlerf]

Not the show version 😢

[@Arlanalt]

I love your break downs for these characters. I think a great character to analyze would be Amos Burton from the expanse

[@levilevi9621]

Still the most iconic TV villain of all time.

[@Sir.Abdullah_Arabicus]

my opnion is stright and simplezing:- The narcissist is often more hated than the psychopath, because the narcissist's influence is public and in front of people, unlike the psychopath who practices his complexes in complete darkness with hidness thats why we automaticlly hate who under the sun light more than who in dark remote castles and horrific deep caves.

[@mitth.rawdog.nuruodo]

I’m always sad for the actors that play incredible villains and get hate for it. (I’d love to know the psychology of THAT, the people that can’t separate one from the other.) I HATE Joffrey, lol. He’s an *excellent* character and villain, on the level of Littlefinger of sheer bastardry. *chefkiss*

[@TheMikepatota]

Joffrey was one of the best villains ever

[@iamsheel]

3:50 that scenery reminded me why season 1 was my favorite. It was the closest thing to my imagination ever.

[@2301WAYNE]

The main reason I think people hate him is because he doesn't look cool when he's doing Villainous things, people love and relate to villains they want them to look cool when they kill people or do some terrible things like awful people like joker when he kills his mother people consider that as cool and make that literally me edits for some reason because deep down they know they are evil and want to represent as cool, all villains are represented like that unless it's comedy genre or other things, Joffrey have way more achievements and wins way more than these cool villains that people consider which makes them hate him more There are way many characters that way more evil and awful in Game Of Thrones itself, other than Ramsey there's Tywin who has done way worse things but looks cool and badass while doing it, People would want to have sad backstories to cool villains like joker who is pathetic in his original origin Story in comic books but since he looked cool to them they want it sad but not hateable villain or rather uncool villains people don't want to relate like Joffrey genuinely has it sad backstory in books but people don't consider it and just him from the birth despite saying to other villains defence noone is born as a Villain, they would still say to characters like Joffrey that he was born evil because he simply doesn't look cool to them. Which is heartbreaking in my opinion he Is The Greatest Characters In Game Of Thrones If Not One Of The Greatest Villains In Fiction, Atleast He is way better than joker for me.

[@chunkystains8950]

I think we've all had a run in with a bratty child strong enough to actually hurt someone. So he isn't just a character, he's a reality we could all experience. That's why he's scary.

[@Soahi]

I think why Joffrey is so fascinating and hatable character, is that he is literally the least suitable person to sit on the iron throne. Think of what would make for a good king, and he got nothing of that. Its sharp contrast to how we often imagine king - some wise mature or old man. If other fantasies offers an escape, GoT will slap you in the face. It's infuriating to see someone like Joffry sitting on the Iron Throne and everyone around him just passively tolerating him when he's just a dumb kid. And it's so annoying cause it feels real. You know this feeling. Perhaps it's a dumb president, or dumb rich kids from your neighborhood who, or your manager who doesn't even know how to use the printer or email. This is as irritating as seeing Joffrey getting away with all the cruel things he does.

[@officialzooz6807]

KING JEOFFERY THE JUST

[@TLM860]

Joffrey was the best king - a man of action, authenticity and bravado is such a rarity. Any alleged cruelty can be explained readily by the rising tensions and ensuing war. Indeed if Joffrey had marched out with the gold cloaks immediately upon becoming king he would've beat Renly and Stannis by himself and used that momentum to crush the Starks quickly - so genius! His only fault was being held back by ineffective and self serving"advisors".

[@TheHuntsman-qe9iz]

For me, I think I hated Joffrey because he lacked conviction. Look at Ramsey, he taunts Sansa seconds before he dies horrifically. He's evil, he knows he's evil. He likes being evil. He was even evil in his final moments when it served no purpose other than to inflict one final hurt on his victim. Now look at Joffrey, he does evil things, but the second he's in harms way, he caves. He begs for mercy when disarmed by Aria, he let's himself be bullied by Tyrion, and almost never actually stands up for himself. He's a weasel and a coward. He calls himself king but lacks the strength and conviction to actually act like one. Imagine if Ramsey was king, and Tywin tried to send him to bed. He would have had twin flayed alive.

[@Celebrian13]

I always though that what made Joffrey such a compelling character to hate is that he almost literally have no redeeming qualities. He's selfish, bad and cruel, yet can not balance it neither with provoking sympathy or being competent as a villain. All his power comes from broken system and ppl trying to exploit, he earned nothing and he is were he is just because of luck. And that kind of mixture: incompetent nepobaby with being absolute menace is recipe for sure hatred though the audience.

[@sofiekaterina]

Omg I didn’t realise Jack Gleeson had received so much hate and retired from acting because of it. I’m glad he’s decided to give it another go then! He honestly made Joffrey and fleshed him out. A poorer actor could have made him feel one note. As much as I hated Joffrey (cause, y’know, Joffrey) I understood his purpose both for the narrative and the audience. I like that you made this video because the character should get more appreciation for their role in the story.

[@atlas956]

i think the real tragedy is that Margaery (in the show at least) looked at this boy, figured him out immediately (to depths that literally not even his own family did)… and then immediately went to her grandmother to figure out the best way to exploit on all of that. Joffrey always was a dangerous, bossy, impulsive, selfish brat. but after Margaery shows up, it starts feeling so much more… intentional and directed. like for lack of a purpose or identity, he just let the very first person who showed him an ounce of kindness (even if with a ridiculous number of strings attached) guide him into literally whatever he could be convinced he needed to be. and none of his family even noticed, because none of them actually give a crap about him.

[@bluebird41978]

Man, I remember the day after the purple wedding episode came out. As soon as I had come home from school, I put the bag down, threw a bag of popcorn in the microwave and then jumped on the couch, which I only did for this episode. I consider it as a testament to both GRRM’s writing and Jack Gleeson’s acting, because without either of them it wouldn’t be as satisfying to hate Joffrey.

[@savageinkstudios2969]

I don't know anyone who thinks joffrey is worse than ramsey or anyone who even thinks ramsey is anything more than a cartoon level irredeemable villain with no nuance.

[@Bingb0ngbing]

I like what you did there by tying the ad into the video. That was a pleasant chuckle 🤭 Are you looking for a wife?

[@MG-js8bn]

Jack Gleeson gave the world a memorable, brilliant performance and he should be honored for that. I happen to be one of those people who was horrified at that final frozen image of his dead face at the end of that episode...he was, ultimately, just a young boy. When Ramsey Bolton died his equally-grotesque death, I felt no pity for him at all. I do remember one moment of vulnerability for Joffrey - when he asked his mother that one time if the rumors about her and Jaime were true. I flashed on the fact that he's spent his whole childhood hearing those rumors, never able to directly address them. Did he in his heart wonder whose son he really was? Then his mother slaps him and he snaps into cold King Joffrey and the moment was gone.

[@nivision]

as a storyteller that has amongst my formats one that's often maligned and oft underestimated-- pro wrestling-- I'd argue Joffrey is a great character BECAUSE everyone hates him. see, in pro wrestling I'm that anomaly who uses more shades of gray than most, but I have to say even in that, having notes of definitive black and white sets the tone for all else. Game of Thrones has SO many characters and SO many shades of gray that honestly, having that one guy we all agree to revile? important. and not in a way that we're necessarily afraid of or can rationalize like Ramsey. characters that you tune in sheerly because you HAVE to see him get his in some way eventually? that can be the steam engine hauling all that intricate convoluted story along where your favorite got five seconds of screen time the last three episodes and shitty things are always happening. and as I write this, you make many of my points in the video. I swear, storytelling escapes its format always. in pro wrestling, we'd call him a perfect sniveling cowardly heel!

[@tayetrotman]

Jack Gleeson got death threats? Wait, what? I thought pretty much everyone loved him as Joffrey because well, he’s great in the role. Oh sure, I cheered when Joffrey died, but that’s because he’s played so well. He’s a character you love to hate. Is that why he quit acting?