John 17 Doesn't Teach Calvinism | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101 | Reformed Theology

Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, discusses why John 17 does not teach Calvinism.
Check out the original video here:
• James White on John 6
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #John17

[@jinaforjesus]

Mr. Flowers, Your content feels like a lifesaving buoy in the midst of the inexplicably confusing, faith-drowning waters of Calvinism that God is rescuing me from. I thank you for your obedience in your ministry. You are glorifying our Father and telling the truth about who He is here on your platform. God bless you, my brother. I pray for your ministry to flourish!

[@7CorgiGirl]

Amen

[@Steve-og4ii]

" faith drowning words of Calvinism " very well said! Calvinism horribly distorts and misrepresents the very nature and character of our loving Heavenly who desires all to be saved!

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@Orthocurious]

Anytime a calvinist cites John 17 at me I’ve noticed it really shows how poorly studied they are, just parroting back what leading pastors in the reformed camp perpetuate.

[@wesleydahar7797]

Go read verses 2 and 24.

[@DaysofElijah317]

@@wesleydahar7797notice you just pulled out those two verses to the neglect of the rest of the passage?

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@DaysofElijah317 He already has the rest of the passage. I was telling him to read the rest of it.

[@insiderevolverstudios]

You are still isolating 2 and 24 from the rest of the text becsuse it mentions before the foundations...lol 24 is referring to Jesus glory that was given to him...not thr elect!

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@insiderevolverstudios I am not isolating them. Jesus says in verse 2 that He can only give eternal life to those whom the Father has given to Him. Jesus says in verse 24 that those who will believe were also given to Him by the Father. Read these verses in context and you'll see. "since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." - John 17:2 "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." - John 17:24

[@thirdplace3973]

Whenever a Calvinist brings up John 17:9 tell them to keep reading. Always tell them to keep reading.

[@wesleydahar7797]

You should also read verses 2 and 24, which Leighton skipped.

[@thirdplace3973]

@@wesleydahar7797 I don’t have an issue with anything in John 17. Those who were given to Jesus during His ministry are identified by the same author in John 6:45.

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@thirdplace3973 So you agree that Jesus only prayed for those who would believe and those who would believe were given to Him by the Father? "since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." - John 17:2 "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." - John 17:24 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me" - John 6:44-45

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@thirdplace3973 It's too bad Leighton didn't want read the whole chapter. Suspicious.

[@jayrodriguez84]

​@@wesleydahar7797Everything was done from the beginning. ‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[@nealwright5630]

Verse 12 definitely seals it. Context is pretty important.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Reading the whole Bible is important. That's how we learn the truth and learn what's not true, such as Calvinism.

[@nealwright5630]

@@bobbyadkins6983 I have known Calvinism wasn't true for a long time. But it has taken years to pour through scripture and solidify what I knew. I found just how much they take out of context and how much eisegesis they do. For example; Ephesians 1:1-12 is _not_ talking about the Ephesians... he is speaking about Jews (the first to hope in Christ [Messiah]). We fall into the v13 group: _In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory_ . And, while he mentions Gentiles once in awhile, Romans is almost exclusively written for Jews as the entire book speaks to those who were under the Law! The "elect", the "chosen" and the "predestined" are Jews!!

[@nealwright5630]

​@dkins6983 I have always considered Calvinism to be left-field. But the past year or so I have been able to gain a deeper understanding of it through Layton's videos (and through study) and to see the errors that lead to the doctrine. Ephesians 1:1-11 is clearly speaking about Jews (The first to hope in Christ). The entire book of Romans, although it mentions Gentiles from time to time, was, once again, written for the benefit of Jews (those who were previously under the Law). In other words, the "elect", the "chosen", the "predestined" are the Jews! And then there's us (Eph 1:13) "In Him, _you also_ , after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise...". The entire concept of election and predestination in Christ has never applied to the Gentiles but to the Jews. Essentially, it's eisegesis that leads to Calvinism.

[@elteacher6410]

Thank you, brother Leighton.

[@elteacher6410]

Calvinists read the Scriptures with tbeir TULIP lenses, and most (thank God not all) don't allow anything in the Scriptures to correct them and make them free out of calvinism. I've had plenty of conversations with JWs, and they also (again, most, even if not all) don't allow the Scriptures from holding onto their sacred beliefs, such as that Jesus was Michael the Archangel before the incarnation, etc.Calvinists have tulip glasses, and JWs have JE glasses.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@jarrodjames5673]

As a Calvinists this was one of my go to passages. My problem was that I didn’t read the entire passage. He prays for the disciples, the. Those who would believe their word that they might be one. Why? Twice he says it is so that the world will believe that Christ has come from the Father. This is in keeping with the purpose of the book, “I write these things that you might believe and in believing have eternal life.” I am amazed how blinded I was by the Calvinist system.

[@contemplate-Matt.G]

Amen. Have you ever noticed Eph 1 is kind of parallel? After the greeting in the first two verses, Only the pronouns "us" and "we" are used from vs 3-12 with 12 define them as "we who first trusted in Christ". In other words, all of those spiritual blessings, revelations, and the predestined status was attributed only to the apostles. Then, like John 17:20, where Jesus switches His prayer to those who will believe "their" words, Eph 1 13 switches to those who believe the apostles and are then sealed with the Spirit.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@pjbostic]

Thank you for your ministry!

[@cvent8454]

Thank you, Dr. Flowers. The world is growing more and more oppressive towards Christians. We need to love one another and love God. Thank you for preaching the love of God for all and the need for love one to another.

[@bluestar8700]

I am so thankful for this channel. The Lord has always made sense and Calvinism rips apart any character of God. I felt so relieved finding your channel

[@jerrystatic256]

I remember having to teach this chapter in Sunday school and I could feel the tension from calvinst.

[@MereChristianMan]

I am glad I have found this channel. I am not alone to my thoughts and debates with calvinist friends in regards to thiestic determination.

[@larrybedouin2921]

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me *through* their word;” {John 17:20}

[@PaulKruse-dd2xw]

Dr. Flowers, I appreciate the care you take to walk through the text and bring out its meaning. It's very succinct and clear!

[@harrisarms2151]

There is no care. He plays fast and loose with the text. It’s embarrassing.

[@Elmarias777]

​@@harrisarms2151Leighton gave his side and how he doesn't see the calvinist perspective fitting here. Can you demonstrate how he played 'fast and loose' as you claim?

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@Elmarias777 By skipping the beginning and end of the chapter.

[@Elmarias777]

​@wesleydahar7797 I do not see how adding these verses in changes the meaning as the clarifications occur during the segment which Leighton covers.

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@Elmarias777 Verse 2 say the Jesus can only save those whom the Father has given to Him. Verses 20 and 24 say that all who will believe were also given to Him. "since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." - John 17:2 "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." - John 17:24

[@canadiankewldude]

I Pray to find a Preacher like you Dr. So many Pastor's in the World, so few Preach the Truth of the Narrow Path. In the past, how many were Christians in speech alone, how few the true followers of Christ.

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

7:15 This verse has always been significant to me. Jesus mentions to the Father that he hasn't lost one of those God gave him.. except Judas(which was intentional). Knowing what we know about the natures and personalities of the Apostles.. it must have been like herding cats to keep them all together and moving in the right direction... it was certainly an accomplishment. And it's no accident that Jesus reminds God of it.... It also brings to mind the parable of the lost sheep... It illustrates a theme which values the individual. Now, fast forward to some modern day churches, especially larger churches, not necessarily 'mega' just larger than average with a pastor often focused on growing bigger still.... Too often those members who are lost out the back door are never pursued as long as the numbers of those coming in through the front door make up the difference. It's like a numbers game. Many pastors have a 'big' vision, and sell it to their congregation expecting people to buy in and make it happen. These type of pastors have often become convinced the people are there for them... and not the other way around. Sad but true.

[@brianschmidt704]

You said it perfectly. It makes it into a bragging thing. Were you won the lottery and God picked you and rejected everyone else. This totally changes the love of God.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@brianschmidt704]

@@jayrodriguez84 What this means is that god knows the future. Actually for god nothing is future. He sees everything as the eternal now. This is why the word predestination is not exactly correct. The word that is actually used in romance. Is that god for new us and then predestined us. Because god's fore knowledge is complete. Therefore he knew who would be his from Before the beginning of time

[@jayrodriguez84]

@brianschmidt704 That's not the way the Bible describes salvation for the elect. Romans 8: 29-30 has 5 steps "chains," and they happen in the order stated. Placing predestination or "romance" before foreknowledge is INCORRECT. Placing justification before being called by the gospel is incorrect. Glorification must happen at the end. What I am stating is ACCORDING to God's word. It's not my opinion. To say we were justified BEFORE we were born into the physical world(even in God's mind) is INCORRECT. Justification can not occur before we are physically born. Otherwise, we wouldn't need a Savior. Sins need to be committed to be forgiven. Our election is in accordance with God the Father's foreknowledge. Not with our justification. From our perspective, we can call ourselves elect when we are justified. But from God's perspective, we were elected for salvation before the foundation of the world. Rev 17:8 tells us these unbelievers who are also mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 10-12 are destined to worship the beast. They will worship him. They can not change that. Just like the man of sin can not repent. Rev 20 10

[@Yaas_ok123]

Please, make video on FREE GRACE THEOLOGY ! Fan of your work, thank you !

[@grizz4489]

Soundwave....are you still making that request ?? Lol.

[@Yaas_ok123]

@@grizz4489 Keeping up hope. Feels like this is some tabu, who would step on Wilson's and Allen's toes. I leave it here, but i think Idol Killer is considering...if i got it right 😄.

[@7CorgiGirl]

It’s so obvious once it’s pointed out. For thirty years I saw Calvinism all over the scriptures but slowly and with the scales from my eyes I’ve come to know the truth. Thank you. I do know that many making comments on here are still in blindness.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN(past tense) in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@Jesusisking235]

Would a Calvinist please help me understand this thought? If God commands us to love our enemies yet he hates certain people, would it be fair to conclude that God would be like the father with a cigarette in his mouth telling his teenage son not to smoke?

[@JD10503]

We are incapable of hating without malice. God can hate without any malicious thought or intent. Besides, when you consider how disgusting we are in God's eyes, how could He look on us without hate?

[@timmartin7013]

Thanks so much for this ministry that God has raised up. Leighton, I am curious about some clarification regarding the various degrees of Calvinist that we would like to believe are genuinely born again. While holding their erroneous unbiblical beliefs and simultaneously agreeing with the great commission and the essential ministry to evangelize the lost. So, more specifically, the pastor or elders leading a church fellowship. Thinking of the imperitive concept of a Spirit led church as God would have it to be( i.e., the Holy Spirit) guiding each of the members to the correct understanding of the truth based on the authority of the scriptures. It seems to me that it would be nearly impossible for the Spirit of God to operate under those circumstances. Satan has been a master at blending heretical doctrine with correct doctrine for centuries. So, the question then becomes if the Biblical truth is presented or taught simultaneously ( i.e.,) blended with false teaching, Biblical Truth mixed with lies equals a lying spirit

[@wesleydahar7797]

Are you trying to say that only one denomination can be correct, and all others have a lying spirit? Specifically on the topic of different denominations, as long as the fundamental doctrines of Christianity are present, then differences within peripheral doctrines are not enough to nullify salvation or remove church status. Calvinism is one such set of peripheral doctrines. It adheres to all the fundamentals. Unfortunately, in Leighton's comments sections you'll always find people who say that Calvinists aren't Christian.

[@JD10503]

It's not just a set of "peripheral" doctrines. Calvinism IS the Gospel, and anything less is nothing less than heresy.

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@JD10503 That means you either don't know Calvinism or what the Gospel entails. Can you be more specific about which fundamental doctrine that Calvinist believe that invalidates saving faith?

[@JonathanEngblom]

Its good to read through, or listen through a chapter as you will handle it. And I hear both sides, as it seems clear to be more about the disciples there and then, jet the augustinian/arminian teaching I've heard since small tells me its about me...sortoff. thank you, Leighton Flowers, for your work, may God keep you humble and may he bless you and yours. 😊

[@bigtxsdude]

concerning Calvinists picking a verse here & there uh, didn’t the Deceiver do that with JESUS as well…..hmmmmm

[@wesleydahar7797]

Leighton skipped verses 2 and 24. I guess he's guilty of picking and choosing as well.

[@bigtxsdude]

@@wesleydahar7797 he explained it thoroughly, your calvinistic glasses blinds you from the truth It’s real simple….how can a loving & just GOD , send 1 Man to spend an eternity separate of HIM, UNCONVENTIONALLY… Yes, HE could do that but then HE wouldn’t be loving & just, HE would be a tyrannical manipulating dictator A GOD i would never follow

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@bigtxsdude]

@@jayrodriguez84 Yes, GOD is outside of space & time, therefore HE sees past, present, & future at a glance, meaning HE knows who will say yes to JESUS or no

[@jayrodriguez84]

@@bigtxsdude He knows who will say yes to Jesus BECAUSE HE CHOSE THEM FOR SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT AND BELIEF IN THE TRUTH. TO WHICH HE CALLED THEM BY THE GOSPEL. I DID NOT SANCTIFY MYSELF. FROM THE BEGINNING GOD CHOSE ME FOR SALVATION. HE SET ME APART. HE SET JEREMIAH APART WHILE HE WAS IN THE WOMB. HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE IS DETERMINISTIC FOR SALVATION. ELECTION HAPPENS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

[@reddog9484]

Yes the calvinists speak about using context all the time, but when context is used in John 17 it shows how far they take it from the text. This passage proves the very opposite of what they intend to demonstrate.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@clarkl4177]

😢 JUST missed you LIVE!

[@sanchezsanchez2700]

Hello Doctor Flower. Do you have your book in Spanish? Unfortunately everything we have in Spanish is coming from McArthur, Piper, Pastor Nunes, Paul Washer and Sugel Michelin they are great man’s of God but I am disagree on the unconditional election and that Doctrine is getting big bc we don’t have anything else.

[@lesliecardoza1002]

Busca en Amazon el libro la promesa del alfarero

[@bertrodgers2420]

I'm finding this channel extremely helpful to answer a lot of questions calvinists push, so thanks greatly. Slightly off-topic but which bible translation would you recommend, I see you use the NASB1995 and NIV quite a lot, are those your two favourites?

[@mysteriouschannel2391]

When he quote this Chapter as you said, taken two three verses to Reference John 6,10😮 i thought some of my friend this hersey mishandling the scripture. And told them John 17: to whom Jesus is praying for

[@markdeduke606]

When Jesus was praying to His Father, yes it was about his disciples but then Jesus prays for all those later , us all believers who will come later and say the same - all who God puts on this earth and choose to follow Christ

[@nealwright5630]

Yes, it's clear that his prayer is structured. He prays for Himself, then for his Apostles, Then for all the rest who will come to Christ through their ministry! It's amazing how things become so clear when you back away from _scripture search_ and read the Bible for what it's worth.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@user-hv2gq4wv8b]

Is there resource or book that has all the classic Calvanist go to verses and how to refute them?

[@chriscasillas]

It's incredibly ironic that Calvinist "scholars" will accuse people like Dr. Flowers of eisegesis. Leighton ACTUALLY exegetes a passage of Scripture and utterly destroys a Calvinistic "proof text," while Calvinists literally have to eisegete said text to come to their conclusion. Wild.

[@Etruth907]

You hit the nail on the head. Most Calvinist that I have spoken with have what I call a narcissistic reading of Scripture. They read themselves into the text and ignore the original audience.

[@1995dodgetruck]

Thanks!

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Is that Thomas Kincade in the background?

[@user-wy9ks6rh5j]

Pray for those who are deceived by and are preaching “another gospel,” aka Calvinism.

[@AlexanderosD]

Straining to convince their audience that one blade of grass is purple, while the entire rest of the field of green grass is overpowering their argument. Being Calvinist must be exhausting.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@mysteriouschannel2391]

Thank you Dr.Flower.....by the way i have received 5 points Calvinist book. Given by my Honest Calvinist Professor.😊

[@suganemmenaul]

Read it. You need to know the God side of scriptures.

[@thizz707gr]

There is no gospel in Calvinism. If you are of the elect then you were never in any danger of going to hell. If you are not of the elect then you never had a Savior and there is no good news.

[@lindajohnson4204]

The "good news" of preferential treatment. The good news that God is a respecter of persons, even though, for some reason, He says He is not.

[@iAintSayDat]

@@lindajohnson4204You beat me to the punch. Calvinism absolutely suggests that God is a respecter of persons.

[@aaronpetrossian9673]

Amen !

[@Alan-hw1np]

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[@Ruben27780]

@@Alan-hw1np Matthew 15:24 King James Version 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[@jasminecharpentier1901]

Your explanation up to verse 23 makes sense to me, but how would I explain to a Calvinist who those "given" to Jesus by the Father are in verse 24 since this is after the transition from talking about the disciples to talking about believers who would believe in their message?

[@JeanetteVallance]

The Father gives Him ALL that turn from their unbelief to faith in His son

[@insiderevolverstudios]

Calvanist on here commenting on something God causally determined before the foundation of the world that Leighton would teach this specific lesson and teach against calvanisim, as if they are going to change what God has predestined causally determind and elected him and others to do...seems pointless

[@nealwright5630]

When you see that the "elect" and the "predestined" spoken of in Romans and Ephesians are clearly Jews, and not Gentiles, the rest kind of falls apart anyway.

[@Reconciled7883]

How about 17:2? Can you go over that Leighton?

[@suganemmenaul]

He didn’t even continue in verse 24. 😅 Verse 2 and 24 written in chapter 17 to see Calvinist views.

[@williammarinelli2363]

Verse 2 and 24 are "written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." That's the purpose verse for the entire Gospel of John. The "ye" in that verse is whoever you are, reader or listener.

[@suganemmenaul]

@@williammarinelli2363 read it again please. Don't be ignorance like your teachers. V:2 says that He should give eternal life to as many as you have GIVEN Him. Given is past tense. ( not all but some according to this verse & and its limited Atonement) V:24 says Father I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am. Its also past tense. This my point here. Read one more time.

[@williammarinelli2363]

@@suganemmenaul "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." This verse does not mention atonement at all, much less limited atonement. That is read into the text, out of nowhere but from imagination, due to a priori dogmatic prejudice. This is a perfect object lesson of how no distinctively Calvinistic propositions are declared explicitly in Scripture. Everything about Calvinism is, at best, seemingly implicit when imaginative verbal gymnastics are employed. Atonement is mentioned once in the KJV, and when it is mentioned in concept as reconciliation it is universally applied, as is the case in Col 1:20 and 2 Cor 5:19. This means universal forgiveness of sin in accordance Scriptures such as, "who taketh away the sin of the world" or "All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men." This is where the Calvinist hears "universalism" because he thinks forgiveness of sins is synonymous with salvation (it's not, salvation involves forgiveness of sin but there is more, and God's requirement for the forgiven soul is belief as per 1 Cor 1:21.) So limited atonement is nowhere declared in Scripture explicitly. The opposite is. The verse does not equate "as thou hast given him" with "as thou hast unconditionally elected them." Again, one only concludes that takeaway when one re-maps the text to fit one's ideology. It's correct that "hast given" is a past tense verb, but that does not demand something done before the foundation of the world as the text says nothing of the sort. A better approach is a Scripture-interprets-Scripture approach, considering this passage from John 6: "And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Who have been given of the father? Everyone that responds positively to the Gospel, that is, every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father. One way to hear, and learn, is to not flee from the purpose verse of John's Gospel when reminded of it. I refer again of John 20:31 - "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

[@kirin347]

Thank you, Reverend.

[@benjaminofperrin]

Yes this is my understanding as well as I've been studying this through a different subject. The ones that the Father gave Him are the 11 disciples. Another example of this happening is in John 18:5-9. Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@Glory2God91]

Brother why are you using the NIV translation?/

[@NaBaronLes]

Because it's a solid translation based on the GNT.

[@2nd2LastSamurai]

I brought up some of these points from John 17 at a Bible study where John 6 was emphasized with a Calvinistic interpretation. I was told by those leading the class that John 17 was "descriptive" whereas John 6 was "prescriptive"...I didn't even know what to say because that notion seemed so ridiculous to me, as it allows for contradiction between the 2 passages where there otherwise would not be.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

Prescriptive eh? You could have asked why the 5000 (plus women and children) that were followng Him around and most of His disciples left immediately after being first "drawn" to Him, when He said, "drink my blood.'

[@2nd2LastSamurai]

While I agree, I'm pretty sure the response would have been that all of those that stopped following Jesus were not actually drawn (or dragged, as the guy teaching the class translated it) by God, and were just after a free meal. The main thrust of their prescriptive vs descriptive argument, I believe, was that in John 6 Jesus is teaching, whereas in John 17, Jesus is just praying to God. They resolved this cognitive dissonance with the idea that God has 2 different wills (the old Calvinistic interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4 argument).

[@jesuschristbiblebiblestudy]

The context for John 17 from a biblical theology view is Christ's "High-Priestly Prayer." The verse under consideration is Christ asking God the Father to intercede and protect the Body of Christ. That is effectively it. Amen.

[@mebsteve47]

As I read the whole Bible God saves us and not by a choice, a decision or Faith. We are saved by The Grace of God through Faith. I agree we can deny or reject the Gospel, so we are lost by choice. But no one is saved as a result of a choice or decision or intellectual assent. Faith comes by hearing the Gospel. The Gospel WILL give birth to Faith and Hope in God and Love for Him if we don’t reject or deny it. When Faith comes alive in us we are moved by His Spirit to confess our Sin, turn from our sinful ways and obey Him. God warns us without Faith we can’t please Him. Faith comes from someone else telling us about Jesus. As we hear the Gospel, the Gospel opens our eyes to see the Goodness of God. The Goodness of God, yes His Spirit revealed to us WILL Transform all of those that don’t reject Him. Only God saves us. Stop adding choice to mix as if it’s a formula.

[@laurentbillaud3316]

Excellent

[@countrycat2008]

It has to be an apostolic context. As they knew for certainty by signs they were shown in the flesh. We only know by faith.

[@webgold3408]

I would like to point out that in verse 2 Jesus plainly says that he has given eternal life to those that the Father had given him. In the second part of verse 9 he tells us that he prays for these, which the Father had given him. This means that the "world" in the first part of verse 9 are those, which the Father did not give him. This makes perfect sense seeing that Christ came to be a Surety for his people (Matt. 1:21) and a sponsor for those the Father gave to him to save (John 6: 37-39).

[@sanchezsanchez2700]

Also thank you very much, bc since I found out about Calvinism my heart is in pain bc I can’t imagine a God that creat people just to send them to hell with out an opportunity to repent

[@7CorgiGirl]

Thanks

[@JMC5013]

I believe in the necessity of the new birth, which is by God. I would not have come to the understanding of redemption without the wonderful preliminary works of God in my mind and heart. I thought humility would bring me to Christ. Give me credit, if it worked cus God had nothing to do with it. God’s mercy works in a mysterious way. Prior to the new birth, I was completely blind to the nature of the kingdom of God. The moment those scales were removed from my eyes, I understood the severity of my sins, without the help of my intellect nor philosophy. It was a humbling reality. How do you acknowledge or even realize that you were destined for doom if you had not entered that ancient narrow door that was shut forever to your face. Knowledge has limitations and it is arrogant. I needed that grace of God for me to truly know what faith is and how faith works. This is the knowledge I needed to have. We have become sensitive to our sinful inclination and we blush when we sin, and our spirit, broken. True repentance is when we grasp the holiness of God contradicting our sinfulness, and we see the restoration of human dignity (that God intended from the foundation of the world), every time because of the blood that cleanses us. We have become the righteousness of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. We've become unrecognizable because of the tranformative work of regeneration. We are no longer alienated from God. 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation.

[@mcgackaclan9909]

John 17 finishes the teaching of John 6 & 10 John 6:37-39 (NKJV) 37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. John 10:14-16 (NKJV) 14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My [sheep,] and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock [and] one shepherd.

[@grindercap]

How to properly read the scriptures? Actually read what the scriptures really say in context. If you read the scriptures within the limits of the pretext some man taught you the truth of God's word can be hidden from you. Do not allow Calvin or his acolytes to cloud your understanding. To do so is to place some man between yourself and God. Jesus did not teach such a doctrine, He proclaimed "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees..." Be like the Bereans who listened to what men proclaimed yet still searched the scriptures daily to learn if the things told to them were true. Note that the Bereans were hearing from Paul, no some Johnny come lately Calvin. Patiently searching the scriptures with prayer and meditation will relieve you of much error; do not allow yourself to have your thirst so easily quenched! Remember that Satan tested the Christ with perverse takes of the scriptures and Jesus shot them all down. Calvinism is dung my friends.

[@wesleydahar7797]

Don't let Leighton cloud your understanding. Be a Berean and read verses 2 and 24, which Leighton skipped.

[@grindercap]

@@wesleydahar7797 First point to made is I came here knowing Calvinism is false. I do not need Leighton to tell me anything about Calvinism to know it is false. Second point the to be made is; verses 2 and 24 of what?

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

I believe jesus is specifically praying for the Apostles here, and no one else. Only at this time, in this prayer specifically. This doesnt mean that He wouldn't pray for all in the world, just not in this instance for the specific purpose.

[@fingerzfrienemy2226]

Proverbs 16:4 KJV The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.😮

[@angloaust1575]

Calvinism has been around much longer than its detractors however its all Interpretation of scripture We will find out one day Who was right not that it matters to be saved is Gods Grace and mercy!

[@WilliamStrain-th4xw]

1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 Even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. Jn 17:1-2

[@jeffreybomba]

What amazes me is how the word WORLD must mean different things at different time if you are a Calvinist. just like two loves, two wills, two calls, and etc.

[@jayrodriguez84]

‭‭Revelation 17:8 NKJV‬‬ [8] The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Whose names are not writtEN(past tense) in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

[@jeffreybomba]

@@jayrodriguez84 Those God FOREKNEW.

[@jayrodriguez84]

@@jeffreybomba Book of Life was completed from the foundation of the world. He predestined us TO adoption as sons(justification/belief). We were not predestined once we became adopted sons. Predestined ->>> tooooooo->>>> adopted sons.

[@jeffreybomba]

@@jayrodriguez84 The entire Calvinist interpretation of Ephesians 1 hinges on, assuming 2 words into the text, “just as He chose us TO BE in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,“ By making that assumption, you are then forced to create 2 wills, 2 loves, 2 calls, and ALL/WORLD must mean different things at different times depending on how it fits into the system. If Paul created/co-opted a new word (AGAPE) to describe the love of God, then why wouldn’t he have coined two different words to describe these two different loves that MIST exist for Calvinism to survive? Was this part of God further confusing those He made DEAD, BLIND, DEAF and INCAPABLE, so as to make the DEADer, BLINDer, DEAFer, and INCAVALEr so as to ensure they would never believe? When an interpretation leads to so many contradictions that must be filled in with volumes of commentary to explain them away, you have a problem.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

​@@jayrodriguez84So here's a question to consider: From what I remember reading, it seems whenever God's book of Life is brought up, it usually talks about a name/names being *blotted out* or potentially *blotted out* of the book. (Exodus 32:33, Revelation 22:19) If this Book of Life only has the names of those "Elected" (as Calvinists define the word) before the foundation of the earth, why is there mention of names being blotted out at all? The "Elect" (as Calvinists define the word), should never be in danger of having their names removed, and the "Reprobate/non-Elect" (as Calvinists define the word) never should have had their names written in it to begin with. So why is that?

[@johnmartintucker]

WOW

[@decayedduck1miles464]

I lean towards Calvinist/Reformed Theology of scripture. I wonder if Leighton Flowers tries preaching the gospel to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons or Muslims as much as he tries to settle a debate that’s been going on for the last 16-1700 years. You can disagree with and debate James White and Jeff Durbin all day long, fine, but at least they’re out preaching the gospel to these groups. All I ever see Flowers doing is “trying to bring people out of Calvinism”. His words. Why doesn’t he try bringing people out of these true cults. When he does that, I’ll listen to what he has to say.

[@davidfayfield6594]

"It is said that God has created man in his own image. But it may be that humankind has created God in the image of humankind" Anonymous

[@d3700]

The best thing about being a Calvinist is you just read into any scripture what you want it to say and ignore what it really says. In the name of Jesus rebuke the spirit of Calvinism and it will leave you. That tells you it is not from God. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

[@codywormy6920]

“Choice meats” lmao

[@philipatoz]

The implications of Five Point Calvinism to anyone who loves people - especially LOST ones - should be greatly disturbing to anyone who understands what God Word says about His mercy and love and His desires and intentions as to whom, inclusively, He desires with embrace His offer of Salvation, namely, the vast billions He desires to exclude. Does He not love them ALSO? Maybe Calvinists define love differently that I do - and certainly differently from how God does in Scripture! And so, I seriously doubt most Christians truly understand what these implications would mean for a lost, dark world? How any Calvinist can see God as a suffering God of unimaginable love and mercy, per their false doctrine that ultimately asserts Him to be a God of horrific hatred for those He withholds His Salvation from? Calvinism asserts God is to be obeyed, WANTS to be obeyed, EXPECTS to be obeyed - except, apparently, when it comes to Salvation, because its doctrines show God doesn't truly want repentance from EVERYONE - ONLY the one's He selected, as He's supposedly made that impossible for the vast majority of human beings. In fact, there is such a massive gap between God's stated character and desires and what Calvinism asserts, that I doubt most, even in Reformed churches, truly understand the implications of the Five Points. Do Calvinist think people going to Hell is GOOD??? And what is that "Great Commission" all about?

[@JD10503]

And God will have His chosen ones saved. He does love those He has chosen from among the lost. But do I believe God wastes a single moment loving those He has no intention of saving? Of course not. God's desires the salvation of His elect, and His elect alone. And He shall have it. Nothing will keep His own from Him. Now, we pray and preach because He decides how things will happen not just what will happen. Hell is a necessity. God is justice and wrath not just love. He must have a group to pour His wrath upon for the full measure of His glory to be achieved.

[@philipatoz]

@@JD10503 Should the non-Elect love God? Should they OBEY Him? Does God WANT them to obey Him? Does He love them? Does God command ALL persons to repent?

[@JD10503]

​@philipatoz Of course they should obey. Of course they should love Him. But they were created for the sole purpose of disobedience. It doesn't matter that they are from birth created unable to obey, they still disobey God's command. And I can already guess what you'll say. How is that just? Well, God punished Assyria for attacking and destroying Israel, even though God raised them up in judgment against Israel. To the human mind, it may not seem just, but God's ways are not human ways. And we should accept that and live under the iron hand He rules with.

[@guitarplayer1434]

it's not john 17 .. It's Ephesians mostly 1 and 2 , romans 8 and 9, most every new testament letter start with "by the will of God". I don't know any christian that says "don't pray those reprobates " and I would say they don't have the Love of Christ if they were Calvinist's or not = you should not use someone's un Christ likeness as a weapon.. And every man's prayer " please open the eyes of my children" , Does God open eyes , do you want his Help , if God makes the 1st move and nothing can happen without that than you need that most of all

[@timothybierl2746]

In small group, the leader is Calvinists and we studied John and when we got to chapter 17, I challenged him and boy was he steadfastly arrogant about it. Talk about man centered theology. He could not comprehend Jesus was praying for His living apostles and the second half Jesus prays for those who will believe, which is exactly who we are, among those who will believe.

[@annakimborahpa]

John 17 Doesn't Teach Calvinism | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101| Reformed Theology Response: If not Calvinism, what is John 17:26 (NASB) teaching? "...and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” Is John 17:26 perhaps teaching Augustinianism? "In his work De Trinitate (On the Trinity), Augustine undertook to render the essence of the Trinity understandable in terms of the Trinitarian structure of the human person: the Holy Spirit appears as the Spirit of love, which joins Father and Son and draws people into this communion…" [From the Britannica webpage /topic/The-Trinity-by-Augustine]

[@wesleydahar7797]

John 17:26 could be understood to mean that Jesus is still at work through the ministry of the church whom He sent into the world. Christians continue to bring the Gospel of Jesus, and Jesus is the Word of God. As a Calvinist, I believe that Jesus is active in salvation by sending the Holy Spirit to regenerate people.

[@insiderevolverstudios]

26 is referring to the disciples and later the Christians in the process of sanctification, actually simlle once you no longer read every scripture the TULIP lenses

[@jarrodjames5673]

Some like Gill and others want to say that verse 21, that the world might believe that he has come from the father, is not unto salvation. This is bogus. Look at verse 8. What did Jesus praise the apostles for in verse 8? They “believed that Christ had come from the Father, “ which is the same thing he desire for the world in verse 21. Believing he came from the father in verse 21 and verse 8 both means believing unto salvation.

[@wesleydahar7797]

You've confused a desire that the whole world would believe and be saved with the fact that the disciples did believe and were saved. Jesus can express a desire for a good thing, but according to verse 2, He can only save those whom the Father gave to Him.

[@jarrodjames5673]

@@wesleydahar7797think about how convoluted your argument sounds. Jesus desires for all to be saved but he predetermines only some to be saved. That doesn’t even make sense logically. Your theology makes God out to be confused, which he is not. As for God giving people to the son, that is true, he does give people to the son. Who are they that the Father gives to the Son? Those who hear the word and who believe that He has come down from the Father. This is indicated by the context of John 5 and 6. God grants us to come to Christ by the gracious word that is preached and the drawing of all men as Christ is lifted up when preached. Also, I am sure that you would say that those given to Christ were given in eternity past. Look at John 6:37. It says, “all that the Father gives (present tense) will come to me.”

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@jarrodjames5673 Have you ever been hungry but did not eat because you were fasting? Does that mean you weren't hungry? No. It means your will is determined by more than just your hunger. It's not convoluted at all.

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@jarrodjames5673 So you say that the Father gives those who believe because they believe, but the very verse you gave says the opposite. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." - John 6:37 They will come because the Father gives them to Jesus. If you want to look at verb tenses, then look at all the verbs. Same with John 17:24, Jesus says that God gave Him all who would believe, not that God will give Him all who will believe.

[@jaggedlines2257]

Yes, Universalism is becoming more and more popular by the day. Thankyou for explaining that the Gospel is preached to the whole world, not only to Calvinists. It is the will of God, that none should perish, and that the Gospel reaches all nations, tribes and people. Therefore Universalism is a legitimate gospel. ( my tongue is firmly planted inside my cheek) Verse 20 and 21 says that The prayer of Christ reaches out to include those who WILL believe because of the testimony of these men. It's effect will be to elicit faith on the part of those in the WORLD. A remnant predestined by the Father. You are getting closer and closer to Universalism, Leighton, but that was always the risk you take when denying Calvinism. God bless.

[@insiderevolverstudios]

You are reading it through your tulip lens, reading that it is only the elect and not that when the world hears the truth of Gods word and accepts the truth of it and believes. Why did Jesus teach in parables, because it was not time for the pharisees to hear the truth and believe, if they were not elect and not regenerate which according to calvanisim even you would say they are not yet, then that was an unessecary step for Jesus to take, here blind person put on these sun glasses to keep you from seeing the light, deaf person hear is some ear plugs because the music is to loud...lol

[@jaggedlines2257]

@@insiderevolverstudios l love loud music! Especially when driving my car. People can hear me coming a mile away. I only play Calvinist music. So good. Pharisees!! They were never elect and never regenerate.

[@insiderevolverstudios]

@@jaggedlines2257 exactly so why did Jeus say he taught in parables so they would not hear the truth of what he was teaching and believe because it was not their time yet...because Christ had not been cruixified. Because the power of Gods word can transform lives....he taught in such a way they would be confused and carry out what still needed to be done which was dying for the sins of not just the apostles (just us) but also for the sins of the world...amazing

[@jaggedlines2257]

@@insiderevolverstudios so according to you everyone is saved then, because Christ died for everyone's sins. Even the Pharisees. Even Judas. Is that correct?

[@insiderevolverstudios]

@@jaggedlines2257 John 3:16 says who the elect is... God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER (election) believes in him (selective application, not universal) shall not perish but have ever lasting life (predestined).... Behold I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE (Election) hears my voice (selective application, not universal) I will come in and sup with them. (Predestination) He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

[@mobycurve2669]

You should have started in verse 1 so that by verse 2 you come to realize it is the Father choosing who HE gives to His Son!: John 17:1-2 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee: (2) even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. That Jesus again proves further on in His prayer to His Father!: John 17:6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word. John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: I deal with your pathetic understanding our Father's absolute sovereignty more fully on "X" where we are allowed to post links!

[@AnniEast]

So the fact that Jesus was speaking in the past tense makes no difference to your understanding of the text?

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@AnniEast No. It's the fact that it was the Father's choice. Not when the giving took place.

[@filmscorelife4225]

Ohhh..didn't you know? The world is referring to the elect world. Sigh...

[@wesleydahar7797]

No it isn't. The world is all people. Leighton can't argue against real Calvinism, so he has to make a straw man.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

What does it mean to you that the names written in the Book of Life in Revelation 17:8 are in the PERFECT tense, PASSIVE voice? Strong's: G1125 English: were written Code: V-RPI-3S Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular Speech: Verb 👉Tense: Perfect👈 👉Voice: Passive👈 Mood: Indicative Person: 3rd Person Number: Singular Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were G1125 ➔ not written G1125 in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[@guitarplayer1434]

would not " praying for only the 12 and not the rest of the reprobates" 'fit in your same slandering against your theory .. I mean, was good for the goose

[@WAOAM]

My favourite man-centered pelagian is back at it again. No one can stop him. He's a wild ass of a man, and every calvinists' hand is against him.

[@nealwright5630]

Please define pelagian, who you're referring to, and how he is a pelagian.

[@robertwheeler1158]

Dr. Flowers should go on to read v. 24, where speaking of believers in general, Jesus says, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, for You love Me before the foundation of the world." This, in turn, ties in with what He had said earlier in John 10:29: "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

[@wesleydahar7797]

And also verse 2 where Jesus says: "since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him."

[@losnfjslefn8857]

Wasn't Judas one of the ones that Jesus says was given to Him? John 17:12

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@losnfjslefn8857 Yes. And to a point Dr. Flowers is correct. Vv. 6-19 refer primarily to the 12 disciples. But in verses 20-26 Jesus extends the discussion to all believers.

[@losnfjslefn8857]

@@robertwheeler1158 He does extend it to all believers, and the reason He is praying for all believers is so that they will be one and be protected from the evil one. His reason for praying for those things for believers? So that through them the *world* (those that don't know God) might believe that God sent Him. Now why would He pray for that, if He didn't actually have a desire for that to happen? I'm reminded of James 2:14-16, what good goes it do to wish someone who is poor and hungry well, if you're not even going to give them the things they need for the body? At that point, it's just an empty expression of love, it's nothing but words.

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@losnfjslefn8857 The best answer I've seen to that question was posed by the 19th Century Southern Presbyterian theologian Robert L. Dabney, who argued that God could have a predisposition to save everyone, but a volition to save only some. God is a God of compassion. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. . . " But He is also a God of justice, who must punish sin. So it is quite likely that He saves some to demonstrate His grace and mercy, and punishes others to demonstrate His justice.

[@wesleydahar7797]

[0:17] - "As with most hermeneutical issues typically you can just say keep reading." Proceeds to skip verse 2 and stop reading before the verse 24, which states that the Father gave those who would believe in addition to the disciples. "since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." - John 17:2 "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." - John 17:24 [4:43] - "These people know for certain because God is revealing to them who His Messiah is and He uses means to do that" I agree. But also remember that God is also active in the means He ordained. "And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 16:17 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me" - John 6:44-45 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65 [5:00-6:25] Red Herring in the form of an Ad Hominem in order to distract from the fact he actually gave the same exact explanation of that verse that Calvinists give, that Jesus was only praying for the disciples here and not the world. I'm glad we agree, Leighton. [7:16] So you believe that God acts on knowledge of His creation. I would argue that God is immutable, doesn't react, and cannot be changed. Who's council does God seek before doing anything? Only His own. You can't hand wave this away by saying that God from eternity past reacted to His creation. That's still the same. [11:50] - "So that the world may be blessed" "[...] so that the world may believe that you have sent me. [...] so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me." - John 17:21,23 The world is loved and blessed, yes, but also the whole world will see and be without excuse. God's glory in Jesus being sent will be manifest to the whole world. This doesn't mean that Jesus is praying for the whole world to be part of those who will believe. Verse 24 makes that extremely clear.

[@nickypendleton4066]

i feel so sorry for leighton... he is consumed by this subject...

[@grizz4489]

Consumed with a passion for Gods Word and biblical understanding and doctrines and theological positions is FAR better than being consumed with things of this world, money, power, porn, possessions, fame, sports, politics ect....

[@user-pv5ik7nq8y]

First of all I find the way that you passively attack those with a different view stops me cold. Secondly I am not trained to think a curtain way, I listen to the spirit and consider those who preach the word for God's glory; not their own. Third. I will not argue or demean others for their belief/understanding. Fourth. I've never heard of Calvinism before a few weeks ago but Psalm 139 tells me God knew me before I existed even at the beginning of time. He knows the number of years I will live and my deeds. This indicates to me predestination. Fifth. I believe my God is Sovereign, a God who we as mere mortals have no full understanding of. He says plainly I will show mercy on who I will show mercy. I don't know about Calvinism or what your talking about but I do know that your message is the only one who demean and condemns those who don't agree with YOU. The scriptures you use are the same others use to prove differently. My God is Sovereign, He doesn't have to, and will not be subjected to demands on His intent. My God loves the sinner to repentance; but Hates those who don't repent. I don't believe everyone will be saved; this world is at war with righteousness and many have no use for the God of creation. I have seen the enemy come like wolves in sheeps clothing to cause division, confusion and stumbling of those God has excepted/chosen to give life to. The road is wide and the way is easy that leads to death. The path is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life; few will entre. My God is Sovereign, He knows all from the beginnings to the end. Jesus knew not all who heard his message would believe. They tried to trick Him, deceive Him, make Him stumble. Lastly, your tactics of attacking and condemning those who don't see things YOUR way are rite out of the stand over, bullying tactics the world employes. All I know is my God is Holy; He is Sovereign; He is glorified; He is wonderful; He is full of mercy and grace; He is the great I AM. Who can know Him? Who can understand Him in all His glory? Who can tell Him the meaning of His ways? None of the others I've listened to has dared to do this except you Leighton, and for this reason my spirit is grieved and saddened. I marvel in the majesty of the God of creation, praise and glorify His son for the grace to salvation and hold high His Holy spirit who leads and guides those who believe to salvation. I want to know more and more of God's ways, the fear of God is the start of wisdom. I seek God's majesty, not for anything but His glory. Without the Sovereign majestic and glory of God, what are we but filthy stains. I repent for expecting the Sovereign God to fit into my box, do you?

[@harrisarms2151]

This has to be the worst take on John 17 I’ve heard. Wow is it bad. And I have already addressed why it’s bad on my other channel, “A Pastors’s Thoughts”.

[@jasonross8096]

Your adding so much to the text, its not saying anything your saying

[@losnfjslefn8857]

What did he add?

[@davidprice9792]

I like to listen to different views on these issues. And it seems the people that are anti- Calvinist seem like they are better than other people. Just seems bitter. I am not a calvinist. I am not an educated man and I could be 100 percent wrong. But I believe if God knew us in our mothers womb And God knows the number of hairs on your head And God knows the number of our days I would think that God knows from the beginning if we will follow God or not. So if God gives us the choice he knows ahead of time. I follow Jesus Christ and no one else. I don’t follow Calvin or any other

[@nealwright5630]

I can't argue with you on this. However, in large part, Calvinists (not all though) are worse... and I speak from personal experience. Consider though, that we are instructed to identify and call out false teaching. Doing so doesn't make us "better". We should correct in love and in humility.

[@wesleydahar7797]

@@nealwright5630 Which Calvinist KZbin comments sections are worse? I've never seen anything close to what you'll see in anti-Calvinists' KZbin comments. You guys are truly in a league of your own when it comes to fanatic mockery. I don't think you can call it correction by any stretch of the term. It's unchristian behavior any way you slice it.