John Leslie - Alternative Concepts of God?

[@gsmith207]

I’m here because of the Webb telescope. And plus it’s a great channel with topics that just explode the mind! Love it!

[@dmere123ify]

I agree with your second statement, but if you’re here for the Webb telescope you may be lost. 😉

[@raycosmic9019]

God = Creative Intelligence. Creative Intelligence is omnipresent. We are all It, to an unknowable/inexhaustible extent, as the facets of a Diamond are 'both' distinct from each other 'and' the Diamond itself. Love is the recognition of our shared Being. I am That I am = I am That which is. I = which Am = is Absolute = all-inclusive. The Universe is the body of the Absolute.

[@aquariusxristus901]

Agree

[@steveclark4018]

Excellent talk with a great finishing line. TY!

[@terrlee9671]

Well, I'm agnostic and I personally think every religion (and therefore the Gods from said religions) are simply man-made. If a God (or some kind of creator) exists, then it would have nothing to do with the religions on Earth.

[@gr33nDestiny]

This is my most interesting topic as not many people are able to think beyond god, science or reincarnation and I have a few theories that took years to figure out. Imagination is more important than knowledge. You should ask this to more people.

[@ChuckBrowntheClown]

The I am, which shows his omnipresence. Always has been, always is, always will be.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Give emotion to God

[@kallianpublico7517]

Alternative concepts of God necessarily involve alternative concepts of being. Who was the God of the people that sacrificed animals? Who was the God of the Aztecs? Who is the God of genetic manipulation? Who is the God of nuclear power? Who is the God of capitalism? The God of gays,Trans, racists? Every type of Being requires a sustaining social network and natural environment. There are prerequisites to being. You cannot act like a Christian without knowing the Golden rule. Even with the political tides against you, you can be a Christian. What then do you need to know to be, act, like a Democrat? A capitalist, a socialist, etcetera? Is there a social and natural environment that allows you to be, or does survival of the fittest come into play? Certainly Christians can be forced to accept gay marriage, but does that no longer make them Christian? Being in the world with others necessarily entails sacrifice, but it also requires conviction. The God of sacrifice and conviction is one being. How that being acts entails a reckoning with suicide. Do we possess the courage and faith to accept our own torture and murder? Or do we fight? How do we judge? By political, religious or ad hoc standards? We act by knowledge, will or ignorance. In which is God more present? Does God honor the blood of the martyr more than the blood of the soldier? What's the difference between a martyr and a suicide? A soldier and a suicide? Courage or despair? Fear or abandon? Or is it just P.R., public relations?

[@kallianpublico7517]

@@realitycheck1231 To be in the world, with others, requires sacrifice. Not God, life. How do you tell if your will is different or the same as God's? "By blood do the Gods make known their will." Aquaman.

[@anwaypradhan6591]

The concept of God, the concept of spiritualism, the concept of supernaturalism, the concept of divinity, the concept of dual thought or dualism is idealistic influenced from idealism which forms an utopian world. The alternative to idealism or the alternative to naturalism is materialism. Being materialistic, if we can analyse the past, if we can learn from past, we would come to know that in the process of creating god, humans became self-alienated and projected their virtues onto this abstraction of perfection. They created a God-centered universe where the alleged sinfulness and evil of humanity would be contrasted to and lay prostrate before this wondrous entity. Moreover, Oppression used as a tool of religion, society uses religion as a form of social control, people behave well not only out of fear of their friends and families disapproving but also out of the desire to remain in their god’s good graces. Many scientific philosophers around the world says religion has also been used as a tool to uphold social inequality, racial inequality portraying Jesus as being white, also slavery was a form of justification based on many texts from the Bible. The scripture of Genesis, for instance, the story of Cain and Abel in which God marked Cain for murdering his brother which was interpreted meaning it marked him as a sinner with darker skin. During apartheid Afrikaners were convinced that they should be the separation of races, each race should have their own land, white people minority having a big land, the black majority having less land, and they insisted that their policies were approved by God because they were grounded in the Bible scriptures. If we be much more realistic or better to say, if we be materialistically realistic then we can conclude that the ruling classes used religion to give false hope and comfort to the poor and strengthen and keep their power. The poor used religion as a form of protest against their economic conditions, to aid them in their economic alienation. In both cases, religion, at its core, was a projection. It was a false projection and illusion, which found its genesis in economic inequality and material suffering. Although dialectical materialist argue that the advent of atheistic social state would extinguish the need for this projection and the need for religion. If we be materialistic, we would find that, with the expansion of the universe, there is the development of ideas, thoughts and philosophies. Every day, there is the new theory formed to replace the existing reality which becomes the truth for the time being. If such theories influenced from the materialistic scientific philosophy replaces the idealistic utopian world becomes applicable in economic, social and cultural life of human beings benifitting human beings in every ways, through every means; then such theories influenced from materialistic scientific philosophy becomes the truth. Looking through the mirror of materialism developing into dialectical materialism, to end the alienation, to end human sufferings, to free humankind from the shackles of guilt and self-degradation, to free the human world from poverty, illiteracy and every socio-economic and cultural barriers the concept of supernatural power and supernatural virtual world must be destroyed in order to reclaim the virtues that humankind innocently surrendered to the notion of a supreme being. There must be a “human-centered” world which must be created where the power of human will influenced from materialistic views would overcome and master every obstacles and barriers and human beings would survive as the dominating species without being destructive towards nature rather maintaining ecological ballance by mastering their own destiny.

[@AMorgan57]

A Book of Verses underneath the Bough, A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread--and Thou Beside me singing in the Wilderness Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!

[@actuallynph]

Understanding god as a scientific minded person to me means collective intelligence, recursiveness and agency. You need to bring those together in your head and you’ll see something interesting emerge.

[@kaileysweeney4240]

That is my essential idea of transcendent intelligence as well, except I am part of the unity that is god and my role is as part of “god” as part of the unity is to allow “god” self-awareness, to in essence be “god” observing “god’s-self.” In that kind of a view, I believe a moral/ethic structure can arise, one that promotes unity among people and creation, and that is a helpful conception.

[@jacovawernett3077]

11.17.2015 Eve Beach Waikiki evening. I couldn't find a book reading so I sat down. God spoke to my right ear from above. I asked Him His name. He answered, Fundamentally E. I answered, Energy of consciousness that suffuses everything. Every proton,neutron, electron, quark, spark of light and black hole. He answered don't forget the science. He said, Make Israel One. You are Anchor.

[@Sw33t_ag0ny]

I think God's physics are greater than the sum of everything in the universe. So in my image of God, it is a sort of essence that resides outside the universe as its cheer metrics are beyond out ability to comprehend. I share the belief with Kailey that our consciousness is a part of God, the unity or the origin. One idea that I think about often is about "Messiah" characters like Jesus, maybe they were chosen vessels that could hold the most important essence of what God is in human form. There is a physical limit to the amount of energy and information our body can contain. So although Jesus is called the son of God, he was actually a partial copy of God that developed his own views on humans. In my mind its like if we humans put our consciousness in the body of an ant so we could understand an ants culture, many things we are capable of will not make it into that ant but we will also gain a new understanding.

[@kos-mos1127]

@@Sw33t_ag0ny There phrase out side of the universe has no meaning. The universe is not a thing. The universe is not an object and the universe is not a being. The Universe is a the matrix of being or a womb that gives birth to anything into existence.

[@jacovawernett3077]

@@Sw33t_ag0ny very well stated. L'chaim. I will teach you some Aramaic. Schlama means peace. Malkuth means Heaven. Hubba means love.

[@divertissementmonas]

John Leslie ought to realize that it wouldn't have mattered if Aquinas had lived longer. He put down his pen on the 6th December 1273 and said "I can not; such things have been revealed to me that all that I have written seems to me as so much straw." Aquinas had what can be called 'tacit knowledge' and what he certainly knew could not be explained to any one else. Like John Leslie, I appreciate Aquinas...

[@mortimerhasbeengud2834]

It's good for everyone to share their thoughts on God. I'd prefer it if people read Leslie's books over the last 45 years to get an idea what he is talking about? You could then agree or disagree. Leslie did study some physics and corresponded with some of the 20th century's physicists to gain their views on the universe. Most (I think) will be pleased with his ideas.

[@CeRockTV]

I'd be interested in learning more about his personal views (since the video didn't really touch on those), but not interested enough to read an entire book. Do you know any resources that summarize Leslie's thoughts in a more compact form?

[@mortimerhasbeengud2834]

@@CeRockTV Here is an insufficient but short hand version of some of his focus. I'll go with Wikipedia on this one because it seems thorough. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Leslie

[@russellbarndt6579]

These are many if not most of my thoughts and questions over 35 years starting out with "the Born again" experience in evangelical Christianity from 19 years old to 25 with years of age. Then reading and studying all the seemly different concepts to question a possible spirit realm outside our know material world. Now at 59 a solid Taoist accepting a simpler view of an unarmed creative force of nature allowing a consciousness to see virtue as a natural way to view or respond once born into the knowledge of a universe and to know that conscious knowledge will stop just as it started - with breath then no breath. Death completes Birth no consciousness god needed only virtue in return for the experience in view of nature being balanced. Now after that I feel our consciousness bleeds out into light as " it" runs empty of what ever Brain and Mind (mind being conceptual thinking) provides for us to know about while breathing....

[@abelincoln8885]

You gave up Jesus for what exactly .. and why? Everything about Jesus and being rejected by the Jews ... were clearly prophesied in the TaNaK. But also that the Jews will repent their sins and accept God's Son in end times. Fulfilled prophesies are actual proof of God. Daniel 6 is clear that the Messiah will die before the Temple is destroyed. Prophesy after prophesy were fulfilled with a Jew called Yeshau( salvation) who said He is the promised Messiah and the Son of God. So you gave up a religion that clearly has fulfilled prophesies proving God so love the world that He would send His only son so that they would not perish but have eternal life ... for ... what exactly? Has you new religion proved its believes are true? smh. God had a reason for the 7 day week. Man will rule the Earth for 6 x 1000 years. God will rule the Earth for 1 000 years. Then there will be Judgement Day. God knew it would take 7 x 1000 years for the last BELIEVER to be pro-created by Man. God only created Adam & Eve ... with free will and the ability to pro-created mankind. This is why God must wait ... until His last Child is conceived. After the 7000 years ... there will be no Human Beings who would love God with all their heart, mind & soul. So there is no more need to wait. Judgement day. 6 days for Man 1 day for God. Judgement Day. And multiple fulfilled prophecies from the TaNaK. From the NT comes Jesus returning for the 1000 year reign before Judgement day ... with 144 000 virgin male Jews who died Believers during the tribulation. The current Jewish year since the fall of Man is ... 5 782. One day is like 1000 years to God. You have made the biggest mistake of your existence. But you can correct it before it's too late. There is not time in Heaven. This is why Jesus said you must always be ready for His return because you do not know he day or hour ... that you die. When you die, you go straight to Judgement Day on 7 000 AM.

[@andrewortiz5797]

I used to be a Christian too. I thought I would die being a Christian but The Creator had different plans. My Religion and old beliefs were stripped from me but in a gentle way after I Had My Spiritual Awakening. When it comes to physical death I lean towards An AfterLife. There have been countless reports of people having an NDE or Near Death Experience. Someone close to me had one and she is the most selfless giving person I know.

[@cvsree]

We don't need any alternative concept of God God is defined as Consciousness that drives all life Our mind is a lower form if consciousness. Yoga says , when we surrender our mind to higher consciousness, we realise God

[@aminomar4002]

mentor and expand my horizons ! ultimate reality,.... !

[@MrSanford65]

I believe God exists Simply in belief and faith which, those phenomenon being real in and of themselves-doesn’t discount his existence in that realness. He is the catalyst of human consciousness

[@andreasplosky8516]

I am not sure anything meaningful was said. Even though faith is a real phenomenon, this does not entail that the object of that faith ever existed. "Existing in faith" is a circular expression. It just says that people believe something, without being able to present any proof whatsoever. We already knew that. It is a meaningless phrase when you want to determine whether gods, pixies, kobolds etc. etc really exists.

[@extract8058]

@@andreasplosky8516 nice contradiction there 😂

[@JustAThought01]

Universal God: My thought: God is our explanation for the causation of reality. Since we do exist in our reality and God is our vision for the creation of reality, then God does exist. We just do not have knowledge of the nature of God.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Is it possible to go beyond mathematics? What might mathematical principles say about existence?

[@Gollapudi]

If God does exist who created him!? . I still believe in God but this question is just another crazy question when we question the universe.

[@ivanniyeha4229]

God as the only creator must have created himself from the unknown to us !!!

[@mrshankerbillletmein491]

Only if God reveals Himself can anything be known of Him I think.

[@oliviamaynard9372]

She told me she prefers female pronouns

[@Sw33t_ag0ny]

I doubt God can fit inside his creations, probably why he sent Jesus but then he got killed. God doesn't talk to us for the same reason Aliens just pass by, humans always somehow fuck it up, its in our nature as we haven't evolve enough.

[@oliviamaynard9372]

@@glennbalck752 If you are that type of Christian you should say they not he as God is 3 people working as one entity like a committee or family. It get Paul was a raging misogynistic jerk when he wasn't killing people and that appeals to American evangelical souther thinking but I don't find it compelling really as to why God is a male

[@mrshankerbillletmein491]

@@oliviamaynard9372 The only reason I use He is that is what the Scriptures say. If the Scriptues are not the Word of God then we have nothing to go on. People can say anything.

[@oliviamaynard9372]

@@mrshankerbillletmein491 Humans wrote scripture so they are the words of men.

[@steveodavis9486]

For me and others, fear of utopias whether religious or secular is frightening to anyone who values of liberty,freedom and individuality are important. Thomas moore wrote Utopia as satire not a desired end. I would certainly prefer a God given utopia over communism,nazism or more recently wokeism.

[@thomasridley8675]

Wokeism (critical independent thinking) is the foundation of democracy and personal freedoms. It's progressive, not regressive. And it's goal is to maximize personal freedoms. They want a world where everyone looks, thinks and acts just like them. Pushing a moral certainty that doesn't even exist in their own theology. Using our eagerness to have a god for their own agenda. Of course we shouldn't need a god to tell us not to be dicks. At least if we wish too still maintain the illusion of being an intelligent species 😁

[@georgetravers9333]

A god-given Utopia is Fascism, a man-given utopia Socialism. Slave to the Revelation, Knave to the Revolution Living in hope for the never-comes.

[@funzuno8639]

Science is God

[@BlacksmithTWD]

Na, science is the endevour of exploring God's creation. Unless of course you were talking about another god than the christian god, but then I wonder why you used the capital 'G'.

[@extract8058]

Perfect example of Scientism as the religion it is here folks. Thanks OP!

[@Johnmtankard]

@@extract8058 OH yeah, now our preconceived biases are confirmed. High five, bro!

[@BlacksmithTWD]

@@ROForeverMan Of course, no argument there, my reply was addressed at Funz.

[@adelinrapcore]

I believe that god is the answer to the question: "Why is there something rather than nothing?".

[@francesco5581]

i think God answer the question "why there is a complex universe instead than a cloud of hydrogen or a stone" because i am not sure a God can answer the question "why i exist instead of nothingness ?" . Or at least is an answer that escape my logic.

[@ivanniyeha4229]

@@francesco5581 it is his will that you are existing I think it can be a simple answer.

[@adelinrapcore]

@@francesco5581 i am talking about existence itself. Why is it possible and i can add, since when? If you find the answer to this , you will find god, imo..

[@tonyatkinson2210]

How does that answer the question ? If there’s a god at the beginning then there isn’t a nothing . Your just kicking the can further down the field . Why is there something rather than nothing isn’t answered by using god as a placeholder

[@adelinrapcore]

​@@tonyatkinson2210 can you think of an answer which will bring you more closer to god , than "Why its existence possible?"

[@monotheist7583]

It's in humans nature, if they don't belive or submit their inner soul/desires towards one God then their actions become slave of their own desires/soul and eventually supersedes the place of God or His teaching. God creates this whole universe and regulate it perfectly as perceived also through nature. It seems quiet evident that system, energy and masses within it, is regulated irrespective of whether humans really accept God Almighty or not. At last, if God is willing there will be a judgment day there will be, if there will be hell fire and paradise forever there will be, and that again will also be true irrespective of believer or not believer.

[@Johnmtankard]

And equally, if there isn't a god or heaven or hell, then that will be irrespective of a person's faith-based belief in it.

[@andreasplosky8516]

@@Johnmtankard Exactly. Nonsense is nonsense, no matter how strongly you believe in it.

[@marce953]

Consciousness is the awakening of the universe to see itself, to be witness and actor of his creatiom.

[@yourlogicalnightmare1014]

God is much conceptually larger than a 3 dimensional universe. More abstractly god has no measurable size in the way that a mental image in your mind has no measurable size. The universe is an idea of gods mind

[@kos-mos1127]

@@yourlogicalnightmare1014 The size of the universe is unknown because there is nothing to compare the size of the universe too. Size is relative term and astrophysicists do not know the size of the universe because there is not a ruler big enough to measure it. The smallest the Cosmos can be is 300x larger than the observable universe with the upper bound being infinite. All measurements revolve around the human scale of a meter which makes it impossible for us to know how big the entire universe is.

[@yourlogicalnightmare1014]

@@kos-mos1127 I try to match my comments to the level of educated individual I'm engaging. The universe only has "apparent" size, not actual size. Apparent because the universe, and everything in it are nothing more than thoughts in gods mind. As an elaboration to my prior comment, the universe is to god what a dream is to your mind. You would recognize the absurdity of trying to "measure" the dimensions of your dream as it would be a nonsense concept. Additionally, when you strip away everything that's NOT you, but that you identify with as you, you'll discover there's nothing left but being and awareness. Your thoughts are not you. Your senses are not you. Your body parts are not you. The self is a mental construct. You can witness it dissolve by taking 5-MEO (the god molecule). Your mind explodes in size at faster than light as your ego mind dissolves into distant memory. You become part of the infiinite mind of god for about 20 minutes. In that state you understand everything that is, was, and could be. You have full access to everything. It is similar to a near death experience except you're not interrupted by "dead" friends or relatives, or other disembodied entities, nor is there a "life review". You blast straight into the mind of god itself. As you come down from the effects, you can literally feel your ego reassembling and your illusory existence as a body on a planet in a universe returning until you're once again back in this "reality" as a "self" The truth is, you were never born, and you'll never die. Those are simply part of the illusion of the experience of existing in this mental space. If you tried to convince a character in your dream that they were not real, they'd never believe you. If a character in your dream told you you weren't really suffering, you didn't just get shot, you weren't really thrown off a roof... you'd argue to the end at how absurd they were for suggesting you weren't feeling what you were feeling and that your experience wasn't what it appears to be.... then you wake up, and see that it was in fact nothing but a dream you were playing a part in. Your "real" life is no different. At "death" you'll wake up to the reality of being an infinite mind unconstrained by time, space, dimension. Everything in your "real" life is thought. You move at the speed of thought, you communicate at the speed of thought. You can't even ask a question in your "real" state, you can only be curious and the curiosity is instantly answered in full detail. You move/act/create by intention. There's no hunger, tiredness, fear, suffering, pain, mental illness, or any of the illusion felt or experienced by apparent "embodiment", as those experiences are part of the "embodied" mind state.

[@kos-mos1127]

@@yourlogicalnightmare1014 I try to match my comments based on the understanding of the individual. The Cosmos does not have a size because in order to determine the size of an entity you need another entity to draw a comparison with. IE if everyone was tall no one would be tall because there is no difference in height which with the make a comparison against. 5-MEO basically reflects the mind of the individual back to them. If some one believe in God then they will have an experience of God while under the effects of DMT. If you do not believe in God and take 5-MEO the experience will be of a celestial blackness of the unfathomable deep. For me the experience of perfect blackness was healing and blissful. At death your brain will start to go into overdrive as the heart stops and blood stops flowing. Then as the brain ceases to function consciousness and awareness fades to black.

[@yourlogicalnightmare1014]

@@kos-mos1127 Plenty of atheists have had an NDE and experienced universal consciousness, so no, belief in god is irrelevant. The truth doesn't require belief. There is no death of awareness. Awareness is completely unaffected by any and every experience you can possibly have. Awareness does not get sick, tired, mad, sad, happy, ... Unlikely you have taken the 5-MEO variant of DMT by your recounting. If you did, it certainly wasn't a sufficient dose. Facts are unaffected by opinions, beliefs, hopes, ... on a sufficient dose of 5-MEO you have no choice but to join universal consciousness.

[@kuroryudairyu4567]

Beautiful

[@abtheflagman]

But what if it's a Goddes? How would the conversation change? It probably wouldn't.

[@kos-mos1127]

The conversation would be over. There is the moment of birth 13.8 billion years ago with the massive expansion of space. Then there is that fact that everything is made up of the same stuff. There would be no coherent argument that would be able to make against a Goddess. It would just be acceptance that she is real.

[@williamburts5495]

If God is wholly impersonal then he can't be realized by personal beings such as us. " I AM " is not an impersonal statement but a personal one.

[@wurmpond]

No. It is ‘the closest approximation’, in a language made by ‘personal beings’ that points towards ‘that which informs you’ as to away from it. (like what for example “it is” would)

[@wurmpond]

If gravity somehow communicated its existence “I am” would be the more appropriate wording. “It is” suggests something else but gravity informs you.

[@dmurray6828]

You make the claim, "If God is wholly impersonal then he can't be realized by personal beings such as us." I'm just curious, what is your argument to support this claim?

[@williamburts5495]

@@dmurray6828 Moses asked God " whom should I say sent me " and God replied tell them " I am " sent you. If God can answer a question then he must have heard the question and answered it like any personal being would.

[@williamburts5495]

@@wurmpond But could gravity communicate it existence to you? Does gravity even know that it is gravity?

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

How might subjective awareness be developed for ontology?

[@njeyasreedharan]

God is 'existence, consciousness, infinity.' QED

[@bluelotus542]

God is a person who emanates personal and impersonal energies. The personal feature is ultimate, for noone has ever seen anything personal emanating from something impersonal.

[@infinitemonkey917]

Hail Satan for she is neither personal nor impersonal.

[@astonesthrow]

Give an example of each please. And then show how it's impossible that either example is simply your own projection of meaning.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Is there an objective reality between being of God and human beings, at least partly demonstrated by science of nature?

[@JungleJargon]

What alternative is there to all knowing all powerful eternal and perfect?

[@kos-mos1127]

The Cosmos.

[@G_Demolished]

Every concept of god is alternative to someone.

[@maxwellsimoes238]

Guys concept if the GOD are brazenly liar . How he knows though Science GOD are thinking? Science are unpredicted with GOD atributes

[@G_Demolished]

@@maxwellsimoes238 You need a better translation app. I have no idea what you said.

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Could God provide consciousness or mind for universe?

[@jamesruscheinski8602]

Can there be naturalism that is transcendent? Something in nature not detected by science?

[@andreasplosky8516]

"Alternative Concepts of God?" Just make something up. All theists do it.

[@owencampbell4947]

This was not a scientific conversation, more like guessing and adding more mysteries to the topic without any logic explanation. The defense system of humans (consciousness) is the most successful weapon of all existence. People might not see it this way, but if you realize how far humans have made it, it could only happen with a conscious mind. Every evolving phase is a significant defense development in humans history. Building armies, discovering atom bombs is a human intuition of defense against space attack someday. Humanity has cooperated but also fought each other as a developing conscious experience, that all in all is just the evolutioning defense system humans are gifted with. The development what we see in technology, science, biology, chemistry, health system, is the natural evolution that our consciousness has developed, but we don't notice it as the developing defense system. Someday, if we dont realize, that consciousness is the foundation for human survival, we might face extinction for not being prepared of what will come.

[@njeyasreedharan]

I agree. Note: God is 'existence, consciousness, infinity'. QED

[@eagledon7199]

Why waste time on this topic? Every dead soul/spirit will be permitted to witness God in Spirit at each person's death.

[@chargersina]

Thanks, so regardless of what anybody says we don't have any real idea. Just fantasies. I like the idea of Quantum wave function the best. (all forces present the waves or wave)

[@tectorgorch8698]

John Leslie I always loved his movies.

[@ChuckBrowntheClown]

To say God is the universe, is absurd. Since he created the universe.

[@brimantas]

main question - where do we get god from? It is some one dreams... of what? And it is another question - what is god? what we name in that name? - DREAM. If you want to talk about something you must to have some how experiences of it or calculations or something real... other is dream. And man likes dreams :)

[@shafimuhammadlakho7877]

The Quran is latest word of God and it is addresses the modern mind

[@ChuckBrowntheClown]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:7‭-‬8 KJV

[@Dismythed]

It's all of the above except that which does not define him as a being. None of those options contradict. If the one called "God" did not create anything, there is no point in considering such a being. It would be no different than an alien; an interesting curiosity, but nothing more.

[@user-k229]

What is God AND what is not God: The Quran. Chapter 112. Say: " He is the One God; God the Eternal, the Uncaused cause of all Being. He begets not, nor is He begotten; and there is nothing that can be compared with Him. The "Thing" we call God is not a Being. It is more probable to say that God is some kind of Force. God is what brought the Universe into existence. Now, I have no issues when Scientists tell us they can explain how the Universe came into existence and roughly, when. But in giving us the fundamental Physics and Chemistry of this process, do not negate, my God! Why? Because the very forces you are prescribing are the Forces that eminate from the Creator. God, must by the definition given in the Quran, exist, before and separate from, our Universe. There is no conflict between the Quran and Science. In fact there are over 600 verses in the Quran that speak of diverse Scientific topics. The verse acted as a catalyst for the Golden Age of Islam. The age that gave us Algebra and Algorithms, Astronony and Chemisry and Physics such as optics and mechanics. All of the Stars in the night sky, still have their Arabic names used by Western scientists.

[@guerrechequeg4275]

Could you citate those scientific verses in the Kuran that you are mentioning about? I found the Kuran real ambiguous, like horoscopes, nothing scientific but just ‘mentioning’ and naming for most part. If you could enlighten me that would be much appreciated.

[@user-k229]

@@guerrechequeg4275 Hi. A few references to scientific verses in the Quran: Creation "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We split them apart? And We made from water every living thing…" (21:30). It is not permitted for the sun to catch up to the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. Each just swims along in its own orbit" (36:40). He created the heavens and the earth in true proportions. He makes the night overlap the day, and the day overlap the night. He has subjected the sun and the moon to His law; each one follows a course for a time appointed..." (39:5). You see the mountains and think they are firmly fixed. But they pass away just as the clouds pass away. Such is the artistry of Allah, Who disposes of all things in perfect order" (27:88). Man We did create from a quintessence of clay. Then we placed him as a drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood. Then out of that clot We made a fetus lump. Then We made out of that lump bones, and clothed the bones with flesh. Then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the Best to create!" (23:12-14). Expansion of Universe "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47) ( The evidence for the expansion of the universe only came in the early 20th century, Hubble). And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.” (25:53) ( The verse is talking about the Haloclyne, this was unknown to Arab, desert people, yet the Quran mentions it 1400 yrs ago.)

[@ivanniyeha4229]

Then what are the dimensions of the the universe ? What is the age and life time of this universe Allah must be knowing all , as he is the one created the universe ???, and lastly where is the evidence Allah created the universe ???

[@user-k229]

@@ivanniyeha4229 The Creator of something would obviously know what He/ It has created. The Quran states that it is Allah that has created thr Universe " and, verily, He is expanding it." So we have an expanding Universe with galaxies getting further and further apart. Hence to be given dimensions etc, 1400yrs ago would have been pointless. As from, one second to the next , the whole universe is getting bigger and bigger. Next you ask, how do we know Allah created the Universe? Forget the name Allah, if you prefer, but call whatever you think created all this, by a beautiful name, I am not fussed. To get to the point... can a leaf create itself? can a fly create itself? Nothing can create itself! Hence everything has come about by SOME CREATIVE FORCE/ FORCES. These Forces, or singular, supreme Force must also be outside of Time and Space for the initiation to have occured. The Quran : We shall show them Our Signs, in the heavens and the Earth and within themselves, until it becomes manifest unto them that this is the Truth from their Lord. (41:53).

[@ivanniyeha4229]

@@user-k229 i believe God created the universe , not Allah but Elohim , if it is Allah , then must have the evidence as Elohim has in holy Bible and not just empty words.,Quran should tell us even the mass of this universe as holy Bible does

[@matterasmachine]

God was primitive discrete machine and he and his children or copies constructed us through evolution. Now we are continuing their work through our progress.

[@aminomar4002]

they think that Plato was behind all what he wrote in the past ! there were more advanced civilizations such as ancient Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, Sumerians, Babylons, .....etc ! Plato was a good thinker but he did not fall suddenly from the sky with all that ! they had contacts with each other better than now days, for instance there were accountants from ancient Egypt, Indians, .... worked in Rome, there is misunderstanding about ancient civilizations! who invented so-called current democracy, Parliaments, elections, Municipal houses, Architecture, even Bathrooms, ....... ! they were not perfect but in some cases more civilized ! basically there were those intervened in the apes' world long time ago "thousands of years ago" that is why there are many fallacies.

[@jimjackson4256]

God is the most important thing in the universe. The only problem is we don’t know if he even exists with zero proof whatsoever as to his existence.This guy is talking crap.

[@thomasridley8675]

It seems that no one can agree on what their god is. Almost like it was created by ignorance of the facts and sifted thru the humans over inflated ego. However, the possibility of a totally indifferent god, universe or reality is still on the table. Does anyone what too try debunking that possibility ?

[@wynlewis5357]

The concept of "God" is a man-made idea to try and explain the universe, nothing more. If there is no such being, it is totally useless trying to define it. It's even worse than trying to define Father Christmas.

[@benrodriguez9408]

A magnificent telescope should only enhance Gods, revealing more of his creation. The bible tells that the wisdom of man is folly to God. Intelligent men discussing such things will never begin to capre to God's widom and power. You guys should stick to telescopes and space.

[@kos-mos1127]

The bible was written by man as propaganda to build a Jewish state.

[@benrodriguez9408]

@@kos-mos1127 'All scripture is inspired by God' it is the part of Him thats has already judged you. This 'propaganda' has never been extinguished though man has tried for thousands of years. Your knowledge is futile if it opposes and offends God. Repent while you have the chance. I did and would rather die an ignorant man with God than a scientist without Him. Please consider the facts of the bible if not the spiritual truth.

[@kos-mos1127]

@@benrodriguez9408 The scriptures were written and inspired by man. I would rather die accepting science and reason than believing in stories written by primitive people trying to understand the world. The Bible does not contain facts or spiritual truths.

[@benrodriguez9408]

@@kos-mos1127 I'm sorry sir. One day very very far from now you will recall this conversation from a very very horrible place. God have mercy on you.

[@kos-mos1127]

@@benrodriguez9408 I see since you have no evidence for God or the Bible you are resorting to scare tactics. The fact is heaven is a fairy tail the church used to tell people who are suffering that is one day the will get a reward after they die. Unbelievers will be punished for not believing in their fantasy.

[@kaileysweeney4240]

Who does the concept of God benefit? God or man? If God is God as traditionally understood in Western religions, then God has no needs, and God’s self-disclosure to humanity was for man’s benefit, yet aside from an inherited theological/moral language and cultural inheritance (perhaps more), what benefit is knowledge of God really? Eternal life? We can never know that really. Miracles? Do they actually occur and if so they seem to be evidence of a capricious God. Perhaps the point of God is as the cornerstone upon which law and ethics are built upon? The problem there is the fact that morals, ethics, and a legal structure can be reflected upon and created absent the existence of something transcendent. Conjecture on the nature and being of God, while entertaining, doesn’t impact the real world in a substantial way, except when it does, as an act of the imposition one groups idea of God’s demands upon humanity upon another group.

[@kaileysweeney4240]

@iarguephilosophy to which I respond by saying I agree.

[@Epiousios18]

You say "point of God" like it wasn't an idea that arose naturally out of human interaction and exploration of the world them. You question the "benefit" while typing on a computer that arose out of an intellectual thought-space that was inextricably linked with theistic ideas (read the beliefs of Leibniz or Newton for instance or any of the key "founders" of modern science or thought).. "Conjecture on the nature and being of God, while entertaining, doesn’t impact the real world in a substantial way" - except for the fact that you could argue that the entirety Christian Charity, for instance, is based upon the idea/contemplation of and the subsequent acting out of that nature. Do those charities have no impact on the "real world"? I consider St. Jude's hospital to be pretty amazing myself.

[@kos-mos1127]

The concept of God benefits man.

[@horatiohornblower868]

Si comprehendis, non est Deus (St. Augustine)

[@chyfields]

Science still hasn't explained how much planet Earth has grown over time, as many lifeforms leave their personal byproduct that creates the next layer of land

[@maxwellsimoes238]

Science hasnt explained Eart than GOD atributes. How Science could be true if it are coming from unpredicted conscieness?

[@chyfields]

@@maxwellsimoes238 Did all the planets grow from the death and byproducts of the living?

[@andrewforbes1433]

Are you suggesting that earth would increase in mass due to an accumulation of animal waste? You must be kidding. Please be kidding.

[@chyfields]

@@andrewforbes1433 I am questioning where the byproduct of life ends up and how it affects the shape of the planet. Personally, I think we are actors in some kind of simulation and that everything in this simulation can be reduced to pure energetic information.

[@chyfields]

How much land and sand is the byproduct of over 4 billion years of deposits left by those who lived.

[@Westrwjr]

If God is “some kind of ‘force’”, Yahweh has been clearly demonstrated to be a “personal force”, not the kind of ‘force’ of Star Wars notoriety.. But, Leslie accurately describes Yahweh as pure ‘spirit’ while also possessing the same traits characteristic of hallowed human ‘persons’. I mean, falsify that one, if so desired.

[@Westrwjr]

@Terre Schill 1) Yes, God must be conscious. 2) Dualism only need be invoked in reference to humans with physical bodies. Otherwise, it's a meaningless term.

[@Westrwjr]

@Terre Schill God is omnipresent and omniscient, is all we know from what is contained in His Special Revelation (Holy Scripture). If we are truly God's creation, regardless of the technicalities of the means by which it was achieved, as intelligent beings our challenge was/is chiefly to follow Him; Westminster Confession of Faith: "Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.". Morality and obedience is a huge part of the essential story of God and man (again, the Westminster Confession provides an excellent summary). Interestingly, this is where mankind has the most difficulty. That's been true from Genesis 2 to today. One additional tidbit that bears on your question, where is God. The New Testament describes the death and resurrection of Jesus, Son of God (sounds weird to newcomers, but is entirely credible upon further exploration). Jesus, following His resurrection, in which He appeared to many witnesses, said those who follow Him would one day be likewise resurrected, and joined with Him and God the Father in glory (heaven). That not only bears on "where is God", at least to a first approximation (i.e. a spiritual realm unknown presently to us), but also provide a powerful incentive to follow Jesus, according to the ways acknowledged in Scripture.

[@abelincoln8885]

Moses clearly defined God with the first two verses of Genesis. "In the beginning, God ( plural) created ( singular) the Heavens & the Earth. And it was the Spirit of God what hovered over the waters of the Earth ... not Elohim. The "bereshiet" means covenant ... and has and the picture message from each letter of the word saying ... "Son of God, by His hands will be the sign." Moses used singular & plural pronouns ... for God ... not God & the Angels or as Human royalty would refer to himself. Man was made in God's ( plural pronoun) likeness .. and it is not good for Man ( or God) to be allow ... so from man came woman ... and together they are one flesh ( Mankind). Genesis 18, clearly states Abraham saw God .... in three men ... standing next o God. Abraham stood next to God ... watching the three Men who were God leaving for Sodom & Gomorrah. All three men were worship as Lord by Abraham ... and not one of them told Abraham that he is an angel or only He is God. Abraham worshiped the three men, treat them all the same, ... and even feed them milk & meat. Hmmmm? So how can God be three Men standing next to God? Simple if you actually understood the first three verses of Genesis and the abilities of the Spirit of God. God the Father, Son & Spirit ... were the three Men. The God standing next to them & Abraham ... was the Spirit. God is singular & plural. And one of the plural is the Spirit which is everywhere and can take multiple forms at the same time. God the Father & Son are only being ... and it is God the Father & Son that are normally in Heaven ... on the two thrones. Genesis 18 confirmed the Trinity ... and explained how God is singular & plural. Three individuals but each are the One( unified) God. The God head is the Father ... and it is the Spirit ... that makes God omnipresent, omnipotent & omniscient. Genesis 19 God called from Earth fire & brimstone ... from God in Heaven. Again. The Father & Son have TWO thrones in Heaven, and the Spirit of God is everywhere at the same time. You needed to know God is a Father, Son & Spirit ... to understand Chapter 22 with the Bing of Issac. Issac was not Abraham's only begotten Son was was said ... three times. And Abraham knew God was a father, son & spirit and one( unity) God. Enough with with the BS "interpretations" from Rabbinc Judaism. Jesus name is Yeshua ( salvation) not a the rabbinic curse word, "Yeshu." The TaNaK clearly states God is a Father, Son & Spirit ... and will sent His only begotten Son ... to save the sin sacrifice ( Messiah) .... that will satisfy God. There is nothing in the TaNaK ... that says God gave the oral Torah and made Rabbis the "interpreters" of God's word. God has cursed the Jews for Rabbis did 2000 years ago. God has blessed the Jews who accepted God's Messiah & Son 2000 years ago, and who would go on to form Christianity because they where forced out of Judaism by Rabbis. God has blessed Christianity & the New Testament .. because God is a Trinity. Jesus is not a Roman god but the only begotten Son of God, and the New Testament is the completion of the Torah( Bible).

[@kos-mos1127]

@@Westrwjr The scriptures are man made propaganda.

[@Westrwjr]

@@abelincoln8885 I think that's mostly right. Though, for anything else I'd call on others I'm aware of who are far more literate in Judaism and the original Hebrew and Greek languages who could accurately assess word by word, line by line what you've stated. But again, seems failry accurate.

[@maxwellsimoes238]

Guys defines G OD proposes though Science model are liar alternative. First Science model was unfit with GOD has in conscieness unpredicted GOD atributes. In this ways guys are undermines GOD definitions with liar speculations.

[@brucethegoose691]

I think God might be made of plastic.

[@r2c3]

how is it possible to describe divinity from a human perspective 🤔

[@Jarell1661]

Oh, I think I can just by using one word : Perfection.

[@Epiousios18]

Reminds me of Nicholas of Cusa's thought. "O Lord God, helper of those who seek you, I see you in the garden of paradise, and I do not know what I see, because I see nothing visible. I know this alone, that I know that I do not know what I see and that I can never know." I think negation is a useful tool in that regard. (there is a reading of this full passage from the game The Witness that can be found on KZbin btw, it is well worth the listen.)

[@r2c3]

@@Jarell1661 your description reminds me of Damocles... On the throne of Dionysius, Damocles realizes that "with great power comes great responsibility"

[@r2c3]

@@Epiousios18 there's nothing wrong to accept our own limits... we are but a subset of the Universe... also, there's not only beauty but also chaos... do you also have an explanation for the chaos, war, injustice and every source of suffering around us...

[@greengalaxy8873]

Human being has limitations including linguistic limitations. So when God sent down his revelations to mankind God knew exactly about this human limitations. Therefore, allegorical or metaphoric "descriptions" of Divinity have been used by God. We will never truly know or describe God. I hope this answers your question to the furthest extent possible. I invite you to read and appreciate the poetic prose of the Quran.

[@redguitar6062]

God-of-the-gaps drivel.

[@gmlgml780]

Yeah. Funny. They speak and speak and they tell nothing and nothing at all.

[@joshheter1517]

Very helpful. Much thanks.